AC Expansion: Not about the experience, just the experience points

[AFWriter]

AC and its expansion pack – it’s no longer about the experience, just the experience points.

Wow. My jaw hit the floor when I first read the new changes to AC which will be developed as part of the new expansion. I think this is the first time I’ve ever seen any game completely roll over to cater to the worst aspects of its player base.

For anyone who ever thought the motto of AC was “Exploit Early, Exploit Often” – we’ll you’ve been proven permanently correct.

The three of the five major changes for the players in the new expansion are all concessions to people who have either powergamed at the edges of the CoC or outright ignored it.

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Level Cap Raised to 275:

Holy cow. Did anyone ever even consider the issues this will bring to the game from a player’s perspective?

First, how does this effect monarchies? Well, with a level cap at 126, a monarch can structure his/her people anyway they like as long as the monarch is 126. With the new ‘dynamic’ of levels past 126, that will no longer be the case.

Of course, many people will say, “As long as people don’t break, it won’t be an issue.” Well, guess what, with the raising of the cap, you will see new XP chains form – and these will encourage players to break existing chains. In turn, this will leave a number of people unable to return to their monarchy.

For example, in a current monarchy a virtual level 131 is the monarch. This monarch has a virtual level 140 direct vassal, who in turn has vassals at virtual level 135, 164 and 150 underneath him/her. When the new expansion converts the cap levels – if the level 140 leaves the monarchy, the three vassals underneath are now homeless and unswearable to their old monarchy if they wanted to return.

Second, how does this effect potential new customers? Well, since there will be no new servers created with the release of this expansion (the next server is slated to be Darktide 2, and will occur after the expansion), why would anyone want to join a server whose population has had (in some cases) a 5-year head start on them? The end result is an expansion which caters to and attempts to keep an existing player base as opposed to recruiting new players. That’s not a good recipe for continued development of the franchise.

New Rare Drop Items:

If anything ever encouraged mass macroing – this may be it. Since every given creature has approximately the same chance of dropping a rare item, Drudge Skulker to Virindi Quidox, people will attempt to kill more by quantity than quality to acquire these rare items. And believe me, nothing is more effective and efficient to do this than a macro -- attended of course (wink). Level 200 characters in the BSD and Lugian Citadels? Yep, this has a chance to set all kinds of farming records in AC.

But wait, it gets better. Eventually, the God-like rare will drop. The super unique item that everyone wants. The Major Bow, Coord, Invuln, Triple seven-level spell ring, wieldable by a level 1 character (or equivalent). Did no one learn the lessons of the Nexus armor and ppGSX? Yep, never before has such an item existed which will encourage people to explore the nuances of the AC inventory management system to look for new ways to dupe – many of which involve crashing land blocks or other disruptive techniques.

Character Augmentation Gems Past Level 126:

Of the three ‘catering changes’ this one may prove to be the most accessible to the ‘casual’ player. Unless, of course, the costs are so high as to make them unattainable to anyone who is currently Virtual Level 200+. If the cost of these gems are several hundred million XP, that may well turn out to be a good XP sink, however if the cost is several billion XP … well, since you’re already going to manipulate the XP system anyway, here’s another excuse.

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Personally, I would have much preferred to see a hard level cap – even if the level cap was raised. Level 200 might have been deemed accessible – but without abusing or manipulating the XP system, level 275 will be unobtainable by 99% of the playerbase, and 100% of the playerbase who choose to eschew XP chains and (attended) combat macroing.

When people purchase and invest their time in a game, even a MMPORPG, they expect (and rightfully so) to have access to all it’s content and features at some reasonable point. What this current slate of changes does is eliminate that hope for the vast number of people who currently play AC – and everyone in the future who decides to try out the game.

I sincerely hope it’s not too late in the development process to rectify these changes.

Later,

Don!

[cstanleytech]

I kinda agree.
The new upcoming level cap is kinda disappointing for people like me who are casual players.
Heck I just got my mage to 126 and he is my first lvl 126 and it took me since 2000 to get him that high.
I do not have a 2nd char past 60 yet so I will be years before I see the new level cap with my mage if ever. *sigh*

[Yinchi]

This extreme level cap means that AC is only about levels. I wonder what happened to role playing? I feel like a hampster, where is my little treadmill? AC has envoys to discourage UCM's but gives a level cap that only UCMing can achieve. I simply don't understand it.

For my two py, AC is going about trying to revive their game the wrong way. They should encourage rerolls and/or new players or I feel the game will die. High levels really mean nothing, you are only slightly better at 220 than you are at 170. At high levels, you have everything, your weapons are imbued, you have uber armor, soon you have done all the quests for your level. What else is left as a challenge? People become bored and leave the game.

Turbine has made many dungeons or quests that were for lower/mid levels into high level dungeons now. There is less for anyone just starting the game to do. Yes, they have given them new quests but overall.. they have lost There is no encouragement for anyone to reroll or buy this game as a new customr.

People became energized by a new server. If they loved the high level content on other servers, why did so many leave? Because they needed that challenge again. Whether it was to become that high level again or simply to start over, it was a new challenge.

Rare drops - Another bonus for UCM's who have the ability to farm 24/7.

I feel sad for the game that I have loved since beta. :(

[Nalturu]

I agree.

[Paraduck]

One of the more frequent concerns that I've seen so far about the expansion is the swearing restriction, like you said. I can see how this can be a problem if someone breaks, or a renegade gets /allegiance boot access.

As for how it effect new customers... I think it's a good thing. It definitely seems like they'll be some more content for when they reach those higher levels. The quests and areas of the new archipelago will be for all levels, and I'm sure the live team will continue to upgrade towns and their surrounding areas, quests, and add new quests for low-mid level ranges.

As for Rares, srand's said this: (http://acvault.ign.com/features/editorials/tn2k4-expansion.shtml#todqarares)

Aren’t you concerned that high levels will kill low-level monsters to farm rares?
Answer: We’re taking this to account. srand likes to use the lottery analogy to describe the rare system: If you buy one ticket, you have a very tiny chance of winning. If you buy a thousand, you still have a very tiny chance. Doubling one’s kill totals will not significantly increase the chances of the player finding a rare item.

The duping part is actually something that came up in discussion with some players after the ACPL. It was suggested that something like AC2's system be added (where all dupes, including the original, will be removed.) Of course, this can sometimes affect innocent players... I remember losing my stuff to a server crash a few times because of this in beta.

I don't think the new level cap will change things too drastically. Sure, players will have more skills and I agree that's something that should be watched and controlled. However, players won't really be much powerful than they are now. The skill caps aren't changing, and the exponential cost of additional points diminishes the XP/benefit. For example, the last 10 points of an attribute are approximately (I believe) 50% of the XP required to max it.

All I really see changing is the level number, and because of that, some people feel they're going to be quickly alienated from the rest of the player base.

Edit: One interesting suggestion I saw to the allegiance problem was to allow anyone to swear to anyone regardless of level, but only have XP pass up if the patron is equal or greater to in level than the vassal. This could be a problem for inactive characters, or players who don't like to hunt though.

[AFWriter]

Paraduck,

The problem is more than two-fold. Especially with the Rare system.

Granted the chances may be small, but if an opportunity exists, there is a subset of the AC population who will exploit it and usually for a profit. that's the past history and reputation of AC in many circles.

In this case, while the chances of finding any rare will be low, the chances will advance in terms of quantity over quality. This may lead to (in worst case) level 200 characters running (attended, wink!) Combat Macros in fast spawn locations intended for lower level characters, like the Arcades and Citadels.

In turn, this will reduce the XP available to lower level characters intended for these locations and not be exactly the best example for the few new players who try to play AC for the first time as a result of seeing AC on the shelves.

It's kind of a self perpetuating cycle of abuse. One that has already damaged AC's reputation on many fronts -- and threatens (IMHO) to do so again with this latest round of macro/chain-friendly changes.

The bottom line for me is the ability for the average player to see and use the entire gameplay experience in a reasonable character life span. With this current slate of changes, abilitites and content will be created specifically for character levels who have already fundimentally changed the course of the game -- and many will argue not for the better.

If an average player bought this package straight from the shelf with this expansion -- what would their chances be of actually seeing some of the benefits created specifically for the Level 200+ crowd in a reasonable manner of time?

With these type of changes, the game is destined to hold it's current population and that's about it. There's no true reason for anyone who wasn't around before chains and legal UCM to start new in AC. The only 'new' players will be cannibization from the existing player base who reroll the new character race, or migrate to a different server.

That's not a healthy recipe if we ever want to see a third AC1 expansion.

Later,

Don!

[ApolloAce]

It appears Turbine is trying to make this game viable far into the future.

We need to keep in mind this game has been played for 5 years.

Nobody coming into a game that old shouls expect to be on a level playing ground with old players.

If they do then I think those folks need a reality check.

We have several folks 100+, 126+, 150+, and 180+ that claim never to have used any programs to get there.

Certainley we need to consider the folks that did, thats always a problem in any game, all games have them.

Eitherway by raising the cap Turbine has made leveling viable and possible for 5, 10 and 15 years.

The whole point is to keep our game around for years to come not create a cap that most folks can hit within 6 months on all thier characters. Folks will just leave if there is no future.

Not everyone will continually reroll.

A very difficult to unattainable goal is better then a goal reached in no time at all. :)

[Unicron]

I agree with thread starter

Asheron's Call: The Level Grind Continues!

A very difficult to unattainable goal is better then a goal reached in no time at all.

That goal entails people sitting in dungeons camping them for long periods of time which is boring as hell...it's the reasone people run macros...hunting = boring! Raising the cap only makes hunting worse...this is why I'm in favour of a lower level cap (Level 150)...Gets people doing other things in the game instead of spending all that time in a dungeon.

[Silifi Of Death]

There's nothing wrong with the rares. Assuming on most servers that the non-macroers outnumber the macroers at any given time (which they most likely do) chances are the macros won't actually get the rares. Now, techinically, a UCM has a better chance at getting a rare then you, but if you take collective precentages, it'a the regular players that are going to end up with them. A UCM only has a little less than double a regular player's chance to get one. However, if there are three people on at any time that the UCM is on, they will collectively have a greater chance of getting the rare. So as long as the ratio of UCMs:Active Players is 1:3 or lower, you will still have a better chance of getting the rare than a UCM.

[Stith]

I agree with what AF posted.

I've played since a month after retail and unless something extreme changes between now and then I'll be quitting when the expansion comes out.

[Draloch]

As it looks now i will also be unsubscribing my accounts when the xpansion hit the shelves. Why should i even play a game that Robots(read UCM's) have won by now? They macro their way all to the top then its announced that we get additional credits after lvl 126!!!! If thats not supporting "exploiters" then i don't know what to call it.

Just needed to get some steam off.

[ApolloAce]

Unicron,

It's only a grind if all your doing is leveling.

There are plenty of other things to do in this game.

Leveling is a side affect of playing.

If you play you will level, it's automatic.

Getting to a particular level so that you can engage it's content is a desire.

If it is your desire to engage content and that nesitates a certain level, which places you in a dungeon to camp for XP, then it is your desire doing so, not the game.

The game does not make it a level grind, the desire to be a certain level in a certain amount of time does that.

It's a choice, if you play you level, someones desire to be a certain level is not Turbines responsibility.

In time a person will reach that level by simply playing.

Yes it can take years, this is however entertainment.

I wish my entertainment to continue. :)

[Yinchi]

Apollo, I hope you are not serious about your statement.

"Eitherway by raising the cap Turbine has made leveling viable and possible for 5, 10 and 15 years."

Why on earth would they raise the level cap to 275 now to last for 15 years?? Are you saying this is the last expansion pack? Why not cap it at 150 now and raise it again the next expansion pack if this is the case?

For me, it would take that 15 years to hit 275.

[ApolloAce]

My opinion Yinchi?

They are raising it above the highest current level.

No point to putting the cap below the highest level.

As to your last statement about it taking 15 years, that was my point.

Under normal circumstances, just playing, no power leveling, it should take that long.

Granted there will always be powerlevelers.

Nothing wrong with powerleveling, some folks enjoy it.

Never been my cup of tea, but hey this is a game for all kinds.

The only time those kinds of levels will be a problem is when folks are directly competing with others, PK and PKL for instince.

Perhaps Turbine could create different level arenas for it, that way the competition is fair.

[Zero_Washu]

This expansion emphasizes one thing, over and over.

TURBINE IS LAZY


Why do I say this?

Simple,

It requires no effort to just set the max level at 275. After all that is simply the sum plus some of maxing the skills and attributes that exist in the current system.

I also like this hint that they may not promote the old races to 32bit and reserve all this new stuff for the Viamount. HELLO!



I used to read HappyPuppy for the articles by Jessica called "Biting the Hand". I followed her writing to another site as it was a very good look into the industry. Yet all I see here is that she has become what she derided all the time. Its the real life version of Animal Farm.


This expansion shows the total lack of respect Turbine has for the real players of AC. Unless your macro, exploit, or abuse the system to its limits it doesn't seem that your play style gets noticed or rewarded.

The new expansion rewards these twits. The loot system should have been a big hint, favoring the higher levels where most of the cheating/exploiters are found.

Asheron's Call : Throne of Macroers. Its more than brown, time to flush it down.

[Fiction_LC]

ok then what do YOU want them to do when they make the level cap 275? what do YOU want them to do about people who are high level? all you people do is cry about stuff seriously they are trying hard to make you happy and you cry about it. They are not going to delete some ones char just because they are level 240 and take away all the XP that would make most people quit. Not every one uses macros not every one was in a chain that is at higher levels so smart one what do you think turbine should do?

Make skills go above what the max is now? then you know what would happen you would again post "Good job turbine for helping out chains" "Good job for helping out macroing" "They are to strong for us! give us higher damage weapons!!!" then you would cry because they are over powerd. maybe you should take their job one day and we will see how you make an expansion because you know something. You have no idea whats so ever about how to make the game stable where every one is happy you cant do it because some one will always cry about something and others will follow. Also how do you want them to stop macroing? come up with an idea of how they can stop it all together you cant have Admins 24/7 standing in places always asking people if they are there. If you dont like the macroing dont like decal there is such a simple solution 'DONT PLAY THE GAME!' its simple as logging in and clicking the unsubscribe button.
I think they are doing a good job and trying to make us happy could they try harder yes are they adding some stuff i dont like maybe.

Personaly i think they should concentrate more on content with harder creatures to kill make the AI a lot better. Maybe when you shoot war it acts like a pk. Also if you attack something thats alone and there is other things by it, it will get the other creatures attention for help. Better AI would make the game more chalanging and bring macroing down. That and how about quests? Make them more like puzzles make them so when your killing the end guy other creatures spawn to help and heal the gut/girl you need to kill.

Make quests take longer and harder and as well, take the radar out in caves to that would make it 10x harder. But then some one will post again about how it would be for chain whores and macrors. But i still think the game needs a WAY better AI and WAY better content.

That and the 200+ places should be put in that and so should more lower level content. With the 200+ it should be insane but yet not to insane where no one goes there maybe take the radar out and make the AI 30x better more like how a pk would fight.

[Zero_Washu]

Fiction.

A lot of the things you want the AI to do it already does. Second the harder creatures will just be ignored as they already are in the game. Hence there is no gain from what you propose.



What I think they should have done?


Hard cap experience at 150-160th level.

This would have done the following.

1. Made it far easier for Turbine to balance the PvM game.
2. Made it many times easier to have a real PvP game.
3. Removed the incentive for the bulk of macroing the exists, which is what a nearly open ended system does.
4. Forced players to make real decisions with their character experience point expenditures instead of just taking everything because they could.
5. Allowed some of the resources wasted policing UCM/ACM players and they abuses they do to be used for far more effective things. Wouldn't it be nice if Envoys could actually run events instead of UCM checks? Let alone helping people out?
6. Shown new players to the game that there are limits that are at least reasonable for human beings.
7. Give enough breathing room to the good players of AC to grow within.
8. Possibly allow us to have the ignorant blights of VOD and CAUL erased from the landscape and once again have things added because of LORE and not WHORING.

Apparently it was too much to ask, this is an expansion of laziness and craziness.

[Paraduck]

Originally posted by Zero_Washu
It requires no effort to just set the max level at 275. After all that is simply the sum plus some of maxing the skills and attributes that exist in the current system.Unless I'm very mistaken, raising the level cap past the 4.2 billion limit is a significant amount of work. The limit was originally there because it's how much a 32-bit integer could hold.

The new expansion rewards these twits. The loot system should have been a big hint, favoring the higher levels where most of the cheating/exploiters are found. Are you referring to the loot changes earlier this year? It just makes sense that one should find equipment from loot that is intended for their level range.

Originally posted by Zero_Washu
What I think they should have done?


Hard cap experience at 150-160th level.

This would have done the following.

1. Made it far easier for Turbine to balance the PvM game.
2. Made it many times easier to have a real PvP game.
3. Removed the incentive for the bulk of macroing the exists, which is what a nearly open ended system does.
4. Forced players to make real decisions with their character experience point expenditures instead of just taking everything because they could.
5. Allowed some of the resources wasted policing UCM/ACM players and they abuses they do to be used for far more effective things. Wouldn't it be nice if Envoys could actually run events instead of UCM checks? Let alone helping people out?
6. Shown new players to the game that there are limits that are at least reasonable for human beings.
7. Give enough breathing room to the good players of AC to grow within.
8. Possibly allow us to have the ignorant blights of VOD and CAUL erased from the landscape and once again have things added because of LORE and not WHORING.

Apparently it was too much to ask, this is an expansion of laziness and craziness. I can see the reasoning behind it, but it would be unfair to those who have leveled past that point. What do you suggest to do about them?

IMO, no hard-cap on leveling is one of the end-game features of AC. I'm glad the expansion pack is increasing these in the form of Augmentation Gems (that's my personal take on it,) and I hope that the land control dynamic will extend this further.

[ApolloAce]

Hard capping effectively ends the game.

Besides what of the folks that surpassed 150-160 without all this assistance of programs, do we just say sorry the months you spent gaining 170, 180 or 190 are just gone.

This game is fun because the end is so far away. It's a challenge that can span years.

If I wanted a game i could win quickly, there are plenty of easier games out there.

The greatest thing about entertainment is it passes time.

For those that only wanna play a couple months, well, like I said there are plenty of easier games out there.

It's very obvious to me Turbine intends this game to last for many years to come.

[Zero_Washu]

Originally posted by Paraduck
Unless I'm very mistaken, raising the level cap past the 4.2 billion limit is a significant amount of work. The limit was originally there because it's how much a 32-bit integer could hold.


You missed the point. Technical issues are moot here. Anyone can code around a limitation if they are competent. What I am referring to is a game design issue. They took the lazy road.

Originally posted by Paraduck
Are you referring to the loot changes earlier this year? It just makes sense that one should find equipment from loot that is intended for their level range.

Again wrong. The chance for majors is significantly increased in tier 6, yet those same items are just as easily used by people in tier 4, and in some cases tier 3. The mobs however favor those who have very high levels. Its always been a joke what they considered high level loot as most every wield requirement except for the new convenat is easily exceed by any level 60 character.


Originally posted by Paraduck
I can see the reasoning behind it, but it would be unfair to those who have leveled past that point. What do you suggest to do about them?

IMO, no hard-cap on leveling is one of the end-game features of AC. I'm glad the expansion pack is increasing these in the form of Augmentation Gems (that's my personal take on it,) and I hope that the land control dynamic will extend this further.


They would be offered the ability to reset their characters and spend the maximum allowed experinece as they see fit. It would be for the betterment of the game. However as it is obvious so many people are so selfish they don't care what is good for the game only good for themselves, and apparently that is balls to the walls maxxed out.

No hard cap is what led us to a world full of macros, what required Turbine to waste resouces policing people just to make sure that someone was actually at the controls of characters. Your cheering that? Sheesh! The augmentation gems simply futher the appeal to macro or worse. After all you can macro those points needed to buy the stuff and never feel the effect of losing real hours.


All this does is confirm the playstyle of having multiple comps running x-tank plug ins with admin alarms all monitored by one person. I have seen pictures of some of these setups. Amazing what we will justify and end up allowing the game to be wrecked.

AF-Write was right, though he did not coin the phrase. It is all about EXPERIENCE POINTS now. To hell with lore or reason, selfishness rules.

[Paraduck]

Originally posted by Zero_Washu
You missed the point. Technical issues are moot here. Anyone can code around a limitation if they are competent. What I am referring to is a game design issue. They took the lazy road.I think you missed mine as well. Since they're coding around that limitation, I wouldn't call that being lazy.

They would be offered the ability to reset their characters and spend the maximum allowed experinece as they see fit. It would be for the betterment of the game. However as it is obvious so many people are so selfish they don't care what is good for the game only good for themselves, and apparently that is balls to the walls maxxed out.Hardly sounds like a consolation to me. That would be something I would expect to see if it was introduced in order to make sure that nobody has more XP than the intended cap.

No hard cap is what led us to a world full of macros, what required Turbine to waste resouces policing people just to make sure that someone was actually at the controls of characters. Your cheering that? Sheesh! The augmentation gems simply futher the appeal to macro or worse. After all you can macro those points needed to buy the stuff and never feel the effect of losing real hours.And regardless of if the cap was being raised or Agumentation Gems introduced, they won't go away. Yes, it's entirely possible and reasonable to assume, at least at this time, that combat macroing will increase. At the same time, you must recognize that a growing number of the player base has reached, or is close to reaching the level cap. There needs to be some form of extension, be it a level cap raise with Augmentation Gems, the land control system, or something else.

All this does is confirm the playstyle of having multiple comps running x-tank plug ins with admin alarms all monitored by one person. I have seen pictures of some of these setups. Amazing what we will justify and end up allowing the game to be wrecked.Not everyone does this. I'm willing to bet only a small percentage of the actualy playerbase does, actually.

[zathros]

There's really not much difference in capping levels at 160 and capping them at 275 except for the extra skill points. A level 160 mage will be within 10-15 points of maxed in his important magics, and spend the next 115 levels gaining the last few points then maxing jump, loyalty, strength, quickness, etc... Yes 10-15 points does matter, and yes maxed out staff skill starting from 10/10 is better in a few cases than no staff kill, but in the grand scheme of things, there's not much difference.

Edit: After looking at treestats, I think 10-20 points is more accurate.

[BillBraskey]

Originally posted by AFWriter
AC and its expansion pack – it’s no longer about the experience, just the experience points.


Much ado about nothing. I am concerned about the affect level cap will have on monarchies, but i am sure turbine will address this somehow. The point you made about new players being upset about lvl 200+ people... well it wouldn't be much different than having EVERYONE practially be 126. At least this way they can level up and not have to worry about not being in the "uber" group of 126 characters. I am excited about the removing of the cap. my mage is something like 128. It will be nice to be able to actually level more.

Your concerns about the rare drops are unfounded. You say 126's will be macroing in lvl 50 dungeons? That would be about the quickest way to get busted ucm'ing. People will continue to hunt what gives them the best xp and loot. Ultra rares will be so rare that people won't worry about "trying" to find one. There may be one or two people that try to do it. But i would be about as worried about them as I am worried about people combing my back yard with metal detectors looking for burried treasure. Also, If I found one of those ultra rare items, i would be much too afraid to try to dupe it.

I'm glad they put the level cap at 275. It's so high, that most people won't even worry about reaching it. There will be a handful that do and try to macro to it. some of them will get busted. Most people will be merrily playing there 126+ and not give a damn.

[ApolloAce]

Ok this is confusing.

Advancement in levels and skills happens naturally from simply playing.

Why is it everytime we get something new, something that opens this game up for future play, somebody wants to take it away just because some guy who has semi-decent programming skills can make a program to take advantage of it.

Look no matter what happens, no matter what tech, no matter what they do those folks will be around. All they can do is thier best to combat them.

Ruining the game and turning it into a long monopoly game is not the answer.

These changes are for us not the silly UCMs.

Are they gonna try and use it? Well of course they are thats what folks like that do.

Turbine is working hard to make this game viable in the future for years to come.

Punishing and holding up 10,000 accounts because a couple hundred program kiddies found a way to spend up the process is very irresponsible and a tad greedy.

[Long_Dong]

I don't quite understand why it matters to anyone what other people do in this game or what level they are.

I have a "Level 141" sword character that has never macro'd and never been in a true xp chain - he simply was the number 2 or 3 guy in a monarchy since November of 1999 so got a decent amount of passup and I hunt a lot.

I play, I have fun, I rolled a mage and levelled her, I do quests. Why does it matter to me if some d00d created a toon 2 months ago and macro'd chained it to Level 178 in 30 days? Answer: It doesn't, not at all.

If someone wants to try to get to 275, that doesn't impact me whatsoever.

What they need to rethink is the reswearing of characters over 126+ however. At that point, anyone should be able to swear to anyone. That's the single biggest legitimate complaint I've read.

[meridian59gar]

These <insert derogatory name here> people who keep posting the ridiculous garbage argument "It doesn't affect me" need to not post at all. You're hurting yourselves AND us with that.

I agree entirely with this thread. Asheron's Call is fundamentally flawed, in that experience is everything and hours spenting grinding away do not give customers the fun they seek. There's simply NOTHING TO DO in this game. Has anyone realized that yet? When you max your entire character, what are you going to do with it? NOTHING!

Turbine needs to fix PvP, which should have been that 'something to do'. They need to put in that land control system. They need to make the game fun.

In all honesty, though, I don't see Turbine doing that. Asheron's Call is going to die. I'm surprised it survived this long - though it's not really "alive" at this point, anyway. This expansion will be the final stake in AC's heart. :/

[Alissa]

Personally I think removing the level cap and some of the other ideas so far put forward are quite nonesense.

These are ideas with not much thought put behind them. As so eloquently stated before my post many see the age old problem of those who followed the mantra "exploit early exploit often" winning out.

I am not going to go forward into that debate as it has been run to ground and both sides will argue until blue in the face. Though I do find the "reformed" Elgar's response quite humorous.

I would think there are better ways to use up skills and experience points.

Make a tier of skill above specialized, such as Mastery. Want that uber War DoT/damage become a MASTER War mage. Want to hit those impossible melee targets become a MASTER Melee. Where those who expend the experience and Skill credits get the AR/CS/CB bonus because of their abilities, not the uber tinked weapon or quest item.

Make it where the uber patron can reward vassals out of their xp pool. Why not? The vassals have sent millions up, why not reward them or help them when they are down? Your sitting their trying to figure out how to use it.

Make activation of items require use of some of those xp points. Want that uber spell negating affect on your weapon/casting item. It can do it but you have to dump experience into it. Kinda like a lifestone, you put a little of yourself into it to get the benefit.

There are more people just need to use imagination instead of the dullwitted extra pack space gem, which I think Turbine steaked from one of Hisba's delusions.

As for the Viamonters....here I digress to lore and the problems with them.

The Viamonters and Aluvians since the fall of the Roulean Empire have been at war. The Viamonters are cruel and rapacious. A perfect Enemy race bound to be sucked into the crazy renegades/shadow/virindi alliances.

Will Viamonters and Aluvians KoS each other? Will they show as pink or red dots to each other? I mean they straddle the hills eye to eye always ready to fight upon Ispar.

I think adding the Viamont, while logical since the portals pop up on Ispar randomly, will actually be adding more to the percieved enemy side. Coupled with the intense hatred between them and the Aluvians it could be quite a problem. Historically since the fall of the Roulean Empire the Aluvian, Gharun and Sho people have gotten along pretty well, with just little flare ups now and again.

So unless there is some special purpose or reasoning behind the Viamont being included I think it is another uninspired thought to just add something to say we did.

Those are all of my thoughts and ideas for now. I am sure as I read more I will think of alternative things.

[ApolloAce]

Why is it everytime we get something to improve ourselves and to help us advance all some people can do is complain and say the bad guys will just get stronger.

There will always be folks that take advantage.

Just because thats true it doesn't mean we have to punish everyone else.

That makes no sense.

Thats like punishing an entire group of people because a few might be a problem.

I don't think I need to mention how many times that has happened and how history paints the people doing it and the people that do break rules.

Punishing and holding everyone back is not the answer and it never will be if we can ever hope to move into the future.

You can't move forward by hiding in the past.

[meridian59gar]

"Why is it everytime we get something to improve ourselves and to help us advance all"



While it's true that we have to move forward and never back, that doesn't rule out moving forward in the wrong direction.


Turbine is going in the wrong direction. The mass uprising against this should be evidence enough of that.

[ApolloAce]

meridian59gar,

Except for Alissa's use of lore and some others folks worry about how it will affect Guilds, the only other reason I see for people arguing against it is that other folks that in thier mind will gain from this, increased power and profit.

So in otherwords we all lose out because a few folks push the envelope and past it.

Like I said we can't sit here punishing everyone else simply because some program kiddie takes advantage of it.

[enoch_VN]

Some of you people I just don't get. Hunting is boring? You got to be kidding me....its like a Christmas morning every single kill. What would you rather do....sit in a town or at a mansion and chit chat about a bunch of non-related gaming stuff? There are chat rooms for that you know.

Some of us who have higher end toons have gotten tired of rerolling or never will. A hard cap is just plain ridiculous. Thats like going out and buying a stand alone game and playing it over and over again IMO. Some of you people can't see the forest through the trees. Sure...lets put all kinds of "restrictions" on the player base....that's a good way to keep them loyal and playing for a long time.

Why should the power gamer or the person who relaxes with 5 or 6 hrs a day playing be subject to a game style that carters to a leisure player. OMG! That toon is lvl 250 and I'm only lvl 80...he's ruining the game for me. Mmmmmkay. That noob that buys the expansion pack will not suffer much as he'll be post 126 before too long if he's a dedicated gamer. If not, there's plenty of stuff for him to do at the lower lvls. In no way will there ever be a level playing field in any game like this and its futile to think otherwise IMO

I can go on and on but the only real problem I have seen so far is the swearing issue. You people need to understand that for the game that you and I love to play needs to grow in order for us to continue to play it year after year. Please put a cork in all the crying....it gets old

Ok....I just read a few more posts on this thread....and I really just feel like some of you anti's are out of your mind. Honestly, what one guy does with his play time does not one bit affect how I play my game....that's such a weak rebuttal

[Unicron]

If hunting was so much fun then why do you have a large majority of the player populace running Decal Plugins such as Eltank or Warbot?

If you look at other MMORPGs like Dark Ages of Camelot and Star Wars Galaxies combat macros are prevelant...hunting is boring but its the main gameplay for these games and until that changes this is what people will keep doing until they reach the level cap.

[ApolloAce]

Unicron,

Thats because those folks are after high levels.

As far as hunting being fun.

Yes it is fun, just as enoch said.

If it's not why are people playing?

Oh, mabey because they are after levels to?

Constant leveling and hoarding experience are only the main game if you make them that.

OH, but apollo if you want to enjoy content you HAVE to HAVE it.

Or you could just play and have fun and eventually by default you will reach those levels.

OH, but apollo so many people are already doing it. It's not fair they are getting to do it and I can't yet.

SO...power level and do it.

OH, but apollo these cheaters and power levelers got it before everyone else and now they control all the good stuff.

And if they didn't nobody would have it anyway.

OH, but apollo they can beat me out in every auction.

Ok so one of two things is happing here. Either they are selling it to each other (which still means you wouldn't have if they weren't around) OR your honorabble friends are selling to them.

OH, but apollo it really screws up PvP.

Give me a break if you can't beat a 240 pker you don't have much of a chance against the 180+ (no programming using) PKer. Since thier legal you wouldn't anyway.

All these excuses are getting really silly.

If you have to be a certain level at a certain time...YOU put yourself in that situation and nobody else.

You'll get there through the natural course of time.

If you can't wait.

Then you put yourself in that position and no one else.

If you say I have to to be able to compete.

Then thats your problem.

You chose to compete with others.

You have no one to blame but yourself for that.

[Yusuki]

Originally posted by ApolloAce
Hard capping effectively ends the game.Tell that to EQ, who had a hard cap of 50 for four years--and five expansions later, have raised that a huge 30% to 65. AC's going from 126 to 275--a 218% increase--in one fell swoop. AC has maybe 100k subscribers, EQ's a half million or more. Gee. Hard caps just end the game, huh.

Originally posted by Stith
I've played since a month after retail and unless something extreme changes between now and then I'll be quitting when the expansion comes out. Quoted for the truth and in agreement. I've been here since Preview2, and all I'm waiting for is Turbine to flip the billing system over so I can be sure my accounts are dormant under the new system, not the old. Then it's time for WoW until the wonderful folks at Turbine fix their broken, exploited, and overly abused game. Edit: Or I might not even bother at all, and just leave MMOGs entirely until they--and their developers--grow up.

[CouchAttack]

"Give me a break if you can't beat a 240 pker you don't have much of a chance against the 180+ (no programming using) PKer. Since thier legal you wouldn't anyway."

Yes, the 3 level 180+ on NPK servers really tell us all non exploiters are that level. MOST non exploiters are level 130-140ish, if that. EXPLOITERS are the guild full of MAXed characters(about 25 i believe). They found out a way to make 100 mill an hour, but no, that doesnt matter, that doesnt ruin PVP, that doesnt make it impossible for myself, a non exploiter(level 113, playing since beta and started in dec 99) to kill the MAX resist grief characters that EVERYONE makes.

[ApolloAce]

Couch you must not be a pker.

There are far more than 3 180+ pkers on just one of the worlds, let alone all of the non-pk worlds.

I think Sweet Mary and quite a few others on Wintersebb that congregate in AB and are perma red and pink would find that quite insulting.

Yusuki,

This is not EQ.

The basis and mechanics of EQ are different than AC.

Therefore what works in EQ may not work in AC, it some cases it won't at all and vice versa.

The good guys out number the exploiters.

The hardworking, loyal, law abiding players deserve an upgrade and a future.

If you folks don't want it, fine, but leave the rest of us to our grand future. :)

[Shelendil]

Raising the bar higher than what is possible to accomplish now levels the playing field in some sense. It is the right move to make.

If you feel that xp chains broke the fairness of the system, then that's another issue. That is in the past, and raising the level cap now does not reward only the "exploiters."

[AFWriter]

What far too many people fail to understand is the effect these changes don't have.

This expansion will hit the shelves at the same time as EQ2, WoW and Matrix Online, along with Turbine’s entries (MEO, D&D) not too far behind … just to name a few.

These proposed changes DON'T have any encouragement for a new player to pick AC and it's two expansions over any of those new products. Furthermore, the changes involved provide an easy jumping point (read increased churn rate) for those people currently playing the game.

As it stands now, the best this expansion could possibly do, with all the advertising and marketing (believe me, the word-of-mouth marketing on AC is bad enough already) will be to hold 90-100% of its existing player base.

There is so little incentive to be a new player in AC, especially when you'll be unable to compete with players and characters who have a significant and insurmountable advantage on your new character.

Removing the level caps is not the biggest issue -- that just validated the TreeStats levels which for years many people failed to acknowledge, now much to the chagrin of many players.

The effect of the extra skill credits further separating the haves (level 200+) and the have-nots (levels 1-130) as well as the ramifications on existing monarchy structures are the biggest initial problems with the new proposed system.

Long-term, the problem returns to one of content. That's why removing the level cap was the easy way out. At first glance, it seems to reward players for leveling -- which it does in some regards -- however what it really does is relieve the burden of actually addressing the issue of providing high-level content.

What we needed was a true Elder game. What we got was The World's Greatest Hamster Wheel.

The problem in both cases was simply not gathering the information needed from the player base before making changes to the core game.

For some reason, this has been a recurring problem for the AC franchise in general. The Elder game doesn't have to be over resource control nor PvP. Many people enjoy the game in spite of (not because of) those aspects. Realizing this, Turbine withheld their proposed Elder game until the fall.

The same is true for players, level caps and skill credits. By removing the level cap, Turbine has opened Pandora's Box. So may of the current design elements were based upon that cap, including many of the social design elements of monarchies and fellowships.

The advancement gem system seems to hold promise, but probably the first gem should allow a player of 125 or above to allow any player to swear to them (even if it entails a proportional loss of XP).

Finally, there needs to be an emphasis on an Elder game which allows people to contribute in a variety of ways, not solely through PK or resource acquisition. Betsy Ross did her part in the American Revolution, and she never fired a single round. There's more to winning a war than bullets and guns ... please examine RL 101 for current examples of this.

By the way, Lil-Death-SC over on my home VN boards had a really good suite of questions designed to better asses the Dev's intents for this new expansion. His questions were as follows:

Those that are worried need to ask the correct type of questions to Turbine.

1) How will you offer the casual player, beyond vassal passup, the ability to attain the high lvl's needed for possible future high lvl content?

2) Are your efforts toward content based solely on todays attainable TRUE (1 - 126) levels?

3) What do you see, with todays game design, as the period of time for the casual gamer to acheive the new max level?

Those are good questions, which if properly addressed, would go a long way in mitigating the anxieties concerning the announced portions of the new expansion.

Later,

Don!

[Paraduck]

AFWriter, why should everything Turbine do for the expansion be primarily for low-mid level players? That's the impression I'm getting from your posts.

Personally, I see it an the Augmentation Gems as a form of high level content and potentially interesting end-game content... at least until the elder-game land control system can be pushed out... and it doesn't hurt new players.

However, I do agree with Lil-Death's question #1 and question #3. I'm concerned about advancement as well, and how those who did not take advantage of XP chains will be able to competitvely catch up with those who did.

[AFWriter]

Paraduck, that's exactly the issue.

As of this expansion, the level 100s will be the low to middle level players. We won't be getting any new players, and any lower levels will be re-rolls (with few exceptions).

If you want to keep your current player base, you have to involve all the players, not just the ones already over level 126.

And if the elder land game involves any form of PvP -- it will by its nature exclude any lower-level characters to some degree. Heck, PvP in any form will cater to the higher level players since that's why many of the leveling techniques and stratigies were developed and optimized.

A level 100 BM has a hard time fighting with a Virtual Level 175 max spec resist mage now. Wait until those same characters have the skill credits to go with those levels -- that's an even scarier thought for the balance of PvP post expansion.

This expansion will not bring in any new players. Not any number of a measureable impact anyway. So what this expansion has to do is try its best to maintain all the aspects of the game's current player base -- and many of them resent these changes.

Raising the level caps truly opens Pandora's Box. Especially as it concerns the people who believed in the Dev's vision of a balanced game. There better be some way to placate the sub-150 folks as much as raising the level cap does for those who have made it a purpose to level past it.

Also remember, a lot of people are looking at AC as Turbine's cornerstone franchise. MEO and D&D are great titles to build on, but Turbine's reputation is still framed by people's opinion of AC -- and these changes reinforce in may people's opinion that they cater to the people most willing to stretch the limits of the CoC (and beyond, in some cases).

Unless they want to carry the "Exploit Early, Exploit Often -- You'll Be Rewarded" reputation into their future games, they should carefully consider all the ramifications and messages these changes send to their player base -- Not just today, and not just for AC.

Later,

Don!

[Paraduck]

Paraduck, that's exactly the issue.

As of this expansion, the level 100s will be the low to middle level players. We won't be getting any new players, and any lower levels will be re-rolls (with few exceptions). So, getting the game back on the shelves as well as an advertising campaign won't bring in new players?

If you want to keep your current player base, you have to involve all the players, not just the ones already over level 126.That kind of defeats the purpose of elder game mechanics, doesn't it? There needs to be something past there, period. If nothing else, I think this is just a system to keep currently high-level players occupied until a "true" system arrives. It's been said that raising the cap couldn't be done in monthly updates due to the engineering work required. So they put it in the expansion pack and add augmentation gems. Just because a large amount of time is being spent on extending the leveling curve and providing some additional goals post-126 doesn't mean that low level players are being ignored and that there's nothing for them to do. I think you're forgetting that there's more to the expansion than a level cap increase.

[ApolloAce]

Besides any elder game tends to include the higher levels anyway so folks sub 126, wouldn't be able to get involved in the content anyway.

Did people 100 and less really expect to be involved in the elder experience anyway? :eek:

The suprising thing to me is the idea that noone over 150 could have possibly earned that level without somehow exploiting the system.

Or if they did they have to be very few.

Folks take a look at treestats.

Yes the top guys are known ucmers but look a little down the list on individual worlds.

Those of us on Wintersebb see names like Jachrya, Deadshot, WarMaster, Jedi, Ground Zero, Sweet Mary (possibly annoying but hardly a UCMer), Mental Assault, Magical Pig, Gold Claw, Pizza Pig....these are names I know, look at treestats and you will see many others that are 180+ and hundreds between 150 and 180.

Wether you like it or not the elder game is here.

Yes there are a bunch of UCMers on top.

So what.

Thier unimportant when comes to rewarding those elders with something more.

These folks and many others are there it's time to move forward, not complain because now you might have to spend a quite a few more years enjoying AC as entertainment.

Stop trying to use them as an excuse to hold back the rest that deserve a future because of some imagined threat of not being good enough.

So you got to where you are without exploiting anything or using bad programs or whatnot.

I have come close to and somewhat surpassed level 126 11 times now on different mage chars all without ever using any program whatsoever besides the AC client (altho I did allow cothos to log on one character once while he had treestats running on his comp because he wanted a record he could look back to about a mage I was building and erased at level 7 (the template stunk...lol.))

Whoop tee doo.

So what.

If you spend your time equating other peoples levels to how they did it there is not a single person, no matter how they did it, you couldn't find an excuse and proclaim that you did it a better more honorable way.

And to those folks that are worried about thier allegiances and possible unfixable breaks.

Look it can happen, nobody can deny that.

If it is that important to you.

Get together for your family get a dozen folks under the monarch and take him/her out to a high XP area and get them up there in level so it isnt a problem.

Right now in the monarcy I'm in there are 6 active folks, mostly RL friends.

We are more than ready to just that for Cotho's (our monarch).

If your family is really that close it's not about moving folks or messing up patron/vassal friendships. It's about keeping the family together and helping it grow.

[Yusuki]

So, getting the game back on the shelves as well as an advertising campaign won't bring in new players?The key here isn't acquisition. It's retention. (Ask AC2 about that one; they can't even give it away.)

The first time any new under-30-day player looks at his level and thinks, "Yeah, okay, my progress is kind of slowing down... I have this much XP... how much more XP do I need to... wow. Forget that. I don't have that kind of time."

<unsubscribe>

[meridian59gar]

AFWriter, you're my hero. There are few intelligent players left in AC to champion the cause of logic, and fight against ridiculousness. I agree completely, and it's what I've been trying to get across to people for months.

What we needed was a true Elder game.
Exactly. Only, not an "Elder" game. Like you said, most of the playerbase needs to be involved. Character building needs to be important, but secondary. Unfortunately, we have a huge problem, in that AC is entirely based around timesinking and "experience". I honestly do not think that AC is revivable with any kind of changes that Turbine is willing to make.

To save AC, we need a system of changes that:
1: Caps total XP at something moderate, like 7 billion. Yes, "only" 7 billion. Once you assign that XP, your character is done. Yes, DONE. This is to provide a variety of characters that are actually different. It will also end the horrendous treadmill we're all stuck on.

2: Provides something to do once the character is done. It should be extremely fun to do, with tedium toned down to the minimum. There should be PvP and non-PvP elements. Whatever this thing(s) to do is(are), it should involve competition against other players with your mind, character control skill, and possibly AC knowledge. If there's no competition against other players, a website will simply list the way to do it and it will become old overnight. Trust me.

3: Provides more of a community feel. There need to be newsboards in the marketplace. There needs to be a "world". There needs to be the option for secret allegiances whose monarch and allegiance info is not shown on your character. Also, a world-wide chat channel that a player can turn on or off as he feels.

4: Fixes many long-standing bugs, fixes all animation bugs, and unlocks every single animation so you can move at any time.




Unfortunately, I don't think Turbine is up for this. The level 250 UCM crowd would never stand for it on the boards, even though they wouldn't actually quit. By the way, this isn't related, but I'd just like to point out that noone over 135 or so got to where they are without chain abusing, UCM'ing, or having vassals that UCM'd. Don't try to dupe me, I'm a freaking AC player, too. I know how many hours it's taking me to get to the next level. I know that it's impossible to just "have fun" and "hunt" and get there.

Anyways, I can't really think of a system that would be fun and interesting under AC's current setup. Like I said, I don't think the game's revivable.

[Jape]

IMO, Turbine should stop investing dev time to make this game even bigger xp grind/competition.

They should give players more things to do instead. (Lore, stories, quests, alternate ways to level, completely new things to do (land raid system), etc)

Less grinding, more things to do please.

[Yinchi]

Jape, you have my vote. I see too many treadmills now with us hampsters working to keep those xp wheels turning. Content, we have a lot of content but in the race to level, it is overlooked, quests are overlooked (although most lower/mid level quests have no meaning anymore).

The Viamont may offer a diversion but what about lag on those islands, I am sure at least 80% of all servers will want to investigate those islands, can they support it? I would like to hear more about how this will be prevented.

[enoch_VN]

"By the way, this isn't related, but I'd just like to point out that noone over 135 or so got to where they are without chain abusing, UCM'ing, or having vassals that UCM'd. Don't try to dupe me, I'm a freaking AC player, too. I know how many hours it's taking me to get to the next level. I know that it's impossible to just "have fun" and "hunt" and get there."


There's really no need to try and dupe you.......you've already been dupped! :eek:

[Yinchi]

Meridian, you have some good idea's about how an Elder game should be but why just competiveness. Why not gain xps by helping new people, people that are lower than you? This gives Elders a new way to gain xps and encourages new players to boot. I know there must be better ideas out there for an elder game rather than increase the levels, we must try to incorporate Elders AND new players.

[AFWriter]

So, getting the game back on the shelves as well as an advertising campaign won't bring in new players?

Hey Paraduck, I'm afraid not. I had a chance to "do lunch" with a friend of mine who knows a lot more about this than I do. His points, and they make a lot of sense to me:


AC and its expansion will be competiting against far bigger, new games in 1st Q 2005
New MMPORPG games tend to sell better than any expansion
People only tend to play one (or at most two) of these games at a time
They don't even have a buy list for the AC expansion yet, and they're already projecting buy rates and placement for 1st Q 2005
The initial budgets for the competition will dwarf anything Turbine will spend to market AC
Bottom line, if you're a new player to MMPORPGs staring at a shelf and looking to buy just one game ... very, very, very few people are going to choose AC over WoW, EQ2, CoH (CoV), Matrix Online, or any of the other 10-12 more marketed online games due out in that time frame (not to mention Turbine's other scheduled 2005 releases (MEO and D&D?)


The one overall feeling I got was that we should be happy to even be seeing any continued work on AC at all, simply because no one in their right mind would invest in a 5-year-old, second-tier MMPORPG from a business standpoint.

The other aspect of that was that the end goal of such an expansion could never be to truly attract more players, but to stabilize the game's current player base. Therefore, if you are going to make an expansion, it better darn well project to keeping 75-90% of its current player base. Some new players will come, but not a truly significant number. However, if the expansion can keep the current churn rate low after the other games released in 2005, then it could be considered a success.

With all that having been said, it's in the best interests of the game itself not to alienate any segment of its current paying population. And while the level cap removal appeals greatly to number of players of a certain playstyles, it also creates concern among people who have pursued other playstyles.

We can't afford to lose anyone. While no one will release subscription numbers, it is safe to say AC is nowhere near the top 5 games in total players. A new expansion won't change that -- and there are several new games which will push AC further down the MMPORPG pecking order.

That's not a doom-and-gloom scenerio, just the way it is. No matter how much we love AC, it will never be a Top 5 game in this genre. So what we have is just us. The people who enjoy the game now will be the same people paying to play the game a year from now. However, if we (and this expansion) fail to keep the critical mass of players needed to ensure a profitable development and maintenance team and meet operating costs -- then ... none of us want that.

Anyway, a lot of this is about trust for many people. Many people have trusted that Turbine would in some ways insulate the player base from the people who chose to live on the edges of the CoC. For the past few years, the level cap was the one thing we could all point to as a sign of stability.

No matter how much you powergamed or chained or ACMed (wink), AC said you were 126 and only a third-party app could tell you otherwise. AC has always said it did not support these third party apps (even though one of the most frustrating concepts to new players was explaining how many basic functions of the game were either only available through third-party apps) -- and now it appears to many that they're rolling over to them retroactively.

I don't think anyone's against us having an expansion for AC, to think otherwise would be foolish -- we need one. But, we need one for everyone to look forward too -- not just the level 150+ crowd.

Later,

Don!

[morrigan]

Well, as of right now, we only see what is posted on fansites, there is still nothing official from turbine. YET as Ibn said on another post.

So, I am hoping that when they (Turbine) decides to post information, it will enlighten those that are concerned and still make those that think the expansion is great, still feel great. And show a newcomer that the game is worth playing for the first time even when 5+ years old.

For those that go outside fan based sites only, take a look at what people are saying about this expansion. And this comes from old players who left, and new people who might be looking for a game.

From the information I am gleaning, there is nothing yet promoting a reason for new players to pick it up over others. What is the incentive for a newcomer? A new race? That will mean nothing to them as they don't even know about the first three, but to those who play AC yes it does mean something ot them. A new land mass? Again for a new player what would this mean to them? New level cap, looking at it thru the eyes of a newcomer I would say OMG I would NEVER be able to see the upper content they are promoting.

No, I do not see, with current information, why a newcomer would select this box off the shelf over other games.

So, AFwriter, I think you summed it up well Then again, just my opinion.

[Solan]

Levels mean almost squat in this game. The ONLY things they mean are a) approximate amount of XP earned and b) number of skill credits.

Guess what? After the change, they will STILL mean only those two things. And they will be MORE ACCURATE. 126 will no longer encompass quite such a huge pool.


IF they put in this Elder Game I keep hearing so much about, THEN I might just be squawking about how much time and energy was being put into content ONLY EXTREME LEVELS CAN USE. Hello? Does no one else notice this hypocracy?

Worse yet, the raising of the level cap is almost completely cosmetic. A UI change (plus some extra skill points). An Elder Game would be a whole heck of a lot more than that.

Reading these boards, a tyro could be forgiven for thinking the only thing the expansion is offering IS the raised level cap.

Does no one else see that a WHOLE NEW RACE will, perforce, mean rerolls, if not new players?

[morrigan]

Does no one else see that a WHOLE NEW RACE will, perforce, mean rerolls, if not new players?

Actually to a newcomer who knows nothing about the other three races to begin with? My opinion, no, it wont mean anything to them.

[Solan]

Game boxes on shelves will get new players. Disbelieve it if you have to, but that doesn't make it untrue.

A new player race will mean low level characters, which is what some posters are saying WON'T BE. Having experienced players at low levels will be good for new players.

The devs said they will are thinking of ways to get old players into noob towns for the new players, too.


Oh, and am I the ONLY one that saw in Paraduck's write-up on the Vault that Jessica said that the churn rate was looking pretty sad just before Turbine bought back the game, but now the number of accounts is GROWING? She praised our word-of-mouth for that. Every time I see someone claim our numbers are dwindling, I remember that. Am I the only one?

[morrigan]

A new player race will mean rerolls yes, that translates to experienced players. If you think the race to get out of the "noob" levels won't be there for the experienced players, I think then we are all being foolish. VT is a perfect example of that, we hear, "well we know where to level", or "I have been the noob too many times".

So newcomer player and reroll are in a training academey hunting together, next day reroll is lvl 25 and newcomer is perhaps 10? (As they are learning the game and not experienced?)

Go to day 2 then, the gap will be even more noticable. You think this will encourage a newcomer?

Yes, boxes will get a few new players, but to compete against the new generation that is also coming out around the same time, show me the incentives thus far for a newcomer to pick this box up above all others?

Many old players returned upon the announcement of Turbine reclaiming their game, newcomers? I am not hearing too much about too many "noobs". Yes, there was a sprinkling of them.

or better yet, this is a newcomers experience recently in the world of AC: As I said, take a look at what is being said outside of the AC fansites.(by the way he confused the free trial with being billed for the download/game)



Lhex


7/19/04 6:56:10 PM


Hard Core Member
Registered: 4/10/04
Posts: 60




I tried AC and was lucky enough to be helped by a vet who has been playing the game since realease. He took me to his guild hall and they were all gathered around a buff bot. Now buffs in AC are insane. One set of buffs on you could take up to 2-3 minutes. Then your UBER. I lvld to 25 in one night. Now granted the lvl cap in AC is high but still I want no part of a community that relies so heavily on such a device.

For most that rate AC high, I guess have accepted this aspect of the game or take part in it. I am not aware of the late game in AC but first impressions are everything.

I got a free trial of AC. Can't remember the amount of time but I canceled it immediately that same day and you know what?, they still charged me 12.95.

For those trying to decide.....

realize a newcomer thinks 126 is high, whta do you think the thought will be at 275?

[arcist1]

Well, I agree ith some yet i disagree with some at same time. The only real problem with the level cap i see is that 126+ are getting punished if patron has disagreement with monarch and leaves. They should make it so that anyone can swear to anyone once they hit 126 as to fix the whole problem since that is the only thing they changing regarding level. As for power gamers, They will always exist nothing you or turbine does will change that fact so why not spend more time enjoying your play style rather than worry about what everyone else is doing. If being the max level makes you feel oh so special than you are obviously a power gamer or a UCMer so what is the problem turbine just helped you by giving you new drive. If you dont NEED to be the uberist in town yet love to play, turbine has helped you also with many new things so again whats the problem. Now as for rares, it kinda takes the fun out of having something if i see a lvl 1 guy weilding same thing i got through hard work and patience dont you think. Yet i will still go out looking for them cuz it is fun and thats what this game is about not whimpering on this board about what everyone else is doing (except you of course). I think turbine is going in right direction. There is always room for improvement in any project hence the fact they asked for what we thought. Well thats just my 2 cents worth for now have a nice day and thank you for spending time reading my ramblings.

[BillBraskey]

Having new boxes with improved graphics will help to get new people. I"m not saying that AC's numbers will swell to anything like EQ or DAOC, but there will be a significant increase.

Here is my take on the level cap increase. Most people have at least 1 character that is 126+. It is a chance to continue to improve your character, which is a good thing. It gives you an incentive to keep playing the game, which is a good thing. Yes, it will reward those that have exploited. So what? Should people that play by the rules be denied things just to keep the ucm crowd from gaining anything? No. People are acting like they will positively HAVE to get to 275, that turbine is forcing them to ucm etc. This is total BS.

The level cap increase is JUST ONE PART of the expansion. There will be a lot of stuff for characters of all levels. New graphics, new weapons and armor, new quests, [no new skills which is a bid dissapointment to me], new islands, new race, new enemies, etc etc etc.

It took me about a year to level up my mage to 126. After hitting the cap, it was much less enjoyable to play. I made it to about 128 or so. I tried playing rerolls, but they were much less fun than my mage. So I moved on to COH. Improving the 126+ game will help to keep people like myself around.

[Awake33]

There's so much BS in here I don't know where to begin, so please forgive my rambling out of order lol. :D

The unreachable level of 275? I think not. I play a level 117 mage that was created in Jan. of this year. No macroing, no xp-chain, no significant xp from vassals (around 71 mill total). It takes no longer now to level than it did at 60. They will surely add content to keep the arc the same for those at 200 or 250, etc.

Yes, I have a job and work full-time as well as being married.

The raising of the level cap was one of the most exciting things I've heard in years! :) In fact, it is the number one thing that has been on my wish list for years. Do I expect to reach it? Of course not, but it is another goal to shoot for in that a player can train a couple more skills. For example it would be fun to be able to dye things myself.

Someone said Turbine is lazy.....any idea how much time it takes to recode JUST the graphics updates, let alone make all these other additions/improvements?

I see tons of people constantly whining about changes to the allegiance system, it never stops. These new complaints about difficulties in arranging an allegiance are absurd as well. There is only one reason to complain about that aspect of the game. XP chains! I see level 126+ characters all the time with 4 deaths or something rediculous like that. Gee, I wonder how they got there?

How would all you folks complaining about Turbine caitering to the xp treadmill feel about then removing the allegiance xp all-together? (Not going to happen I know) I bet you would hate it. I would welcome it. :cool:

And what is it with people talking about "competing" against other players? Talk of "the have's" and "have not's". WHO CARES, it's just a game! Your only competing with them if you choose to do so, I just play the game. It's going to have some flaws, but nothing as melodramatic as many of you propose. As for the new wave of MMORPGs coming out, I have low expectations. AC has qualities to it that cannot be found in any other game.
Like many other poeople, I've tried several of them - DAOC, AC2, Heroes, to name a few. Yet here I am again playing a much older game because they paled in comparision. It requires more than pretty graphics to sustain our loyalty.
Look around, not a day goes by that I don't talk to someone in-game I don't even know who has just returned to AC after a long break and being letdown by some shiny new MMORPG.

How is this any different than real life? You have 20 year old millionaires and you have people working at McDonalds at the age of 40. With the exception of family heirs and lotto winners, the VAST majority of these people have nobody to blame but themselves for poor choices.

I have worked at jobs alongside many people like the complainers that are present here. The "But that's not fair!" crowd. Guess who didn't get raises or promotions? Those that are rewarded are the ones who put forth effort.
If some people are ok with taking the easy way, then so be it, it has ZERO to do with you. In fact it gives you an edge should you decide to use it.

One example - In AC I like to hunt or do quests that are dangerous soloed or with just 1 or 2 friends, people that like the challenge risk as well. Its unbelievable how hard it is to find people who are not too chicken to do this because they don't want to die. They want a group of 10+ for something that only needs 2 or 3 good players. I prefer to fight Gaerlan for example, whats the fun in bypassing that? The whiners endlessly point out exploiters, yet they are the same people exploiting that quest's broken aspects! I recently soloed a Platinum King, everybody told me it could not be done at my level, especially being a mage without the "fists" spell from Bobo. By coincidence I was rewarded with a very useful major for my efforts.

In my experience, most players in AC are "safe" :confused: players. Not taking real risks of in-game death. Even in my own allegiance lol! Everytime I go on a quest with a large group there are all the melee's saying,"Imp pls" or "Fire vuln pls". WHY!? Everything gets killed so fast it's insane. Half the time the targer is gone before my war spell is done winding up. Many people are cautious to the point of being cowards :eek: IMO. Again, it's just a game....have fun, take risks or don't, but only blame yourself if you feel like your competing with others.

[BillBraskey]

I agree with everythign that you said except about the 126+ swearing allegiance issue. I would perfer it if you could swear to anyone, but if you are higher level than them when you swear, that you don't give passup. It just makes sense to me that allegiances shouldn't be about what level people are. I think it's a damn shame for someoen to want to get into an allegiance, and not be able to because of level differences. Lets face it. At this point a lot of why people stick around is the allegiance system. It's one of the best things about AC. As one person said, should the allegiance system be designed to benefit power levelers/exploiters/ucm's etc. or the people that care less about xp and more about making friends and helping them out?

[Yinchi]

Solan, one reason (and I think the main one) that numbers went up after Turbine took over was the promise of a new server. With the promise of containing UCM's and no chains, it sounded like a dream come true. At last, a clean start for everyone.

Yes, old players returned, they flocked to that new server. Many of my friends came back, yay! Then they found it was the same old leveling threadmill with buff bots the first day, uber armor in the shop by the 2nd day and level 126's within a week. My friends are gone, this time I doubt they will return.

Some old players will return to try out the new island. As a matter of fact, I think a very large portion of the player base will try that new island and race. Will this game support the lag caused by this? I would like to try the new island, I am hoping the lag won't kill me there. ;)

[meridian59gar]

Lots and lots of talk, but little to do with anything.

Look, for all of you who don't understand why everyone is angry over the raising of the level cap - it's very, very simple.

Can you read this?

XP grinding is not fun.

Tada! That's the number one reason we're all pissed off. Do you know why this pisses us off? Because we pay money to have fun, not to XP grind!

If you don't XP grind, your game is over. Nothing changes. You can't go on any of the cooler quests, you can't use better items, and you can't PvP with anyone higher than you. XP is more important than anything else in this game.

We spend hours and days reaching a level, just so we can reach the level after that. Truth be told, I'm not really sure why I'm playing at all. The only reason I haven't cancelled is because I have a mild interest in gathering and wearing the perfect Covenant suit, but that takes 300 base magic D and is billions of XP away. That, and the fact that I can UCM overnight so I don't have to waste pieces of my life on garbage acivities. When I finally get 300 Magic D and get that suit, I'll probably quit. I'll have nothing to do.

Why do you play? You probably don't really know, either. Because...

there's no reason to play.

And when there's already no reason to play, XP grinding is the last thing any of us wants to do...

[BillBraskey]

And exactly how does raising the level cap MAKE you have to grind more levels?

Besides, grinding xp is at least more fun when you CAN level as opposed to NOT being able to level.

Look the devs are going to add some content for those really high level 150, 160's etc. BUT they realize that only a small percentage of people will actually be that high. It's not goign to affect the lower level content in any measureable way.

You say you pay money to have fun, not grind levels. Then go have fun. There is plenty to do. You are just exxagerating, being melodramatic, and a... well i wont say it.

The expansion is going to have plenty of new content for all levels.

[meridian59gar]

BillBraskey, I had a real good laugh from your post. Thanks :)

And exactly how does raising the level cap MAKE you have to grind more levels?
It's an indication that content will continue to be aimed at people so high above my level that I'll never see any of it. Don't give me any BS about content for mid-levels... everything in the past 6 months has been directed solely at supermen. Blackmire, VoD, Caul.

You say you pay money to have fun, not grind levels. Then go have fun. There is plenty to do. You are just exxagerating, being melodramatic, and a... well i wont say it.
There is plenty to do...? Like... what? Could you list some examples, please? NPCs are cardboard cutouts with no personality. Quests are pointless, as they are either static and reruns of stuff we've all done a hundred times, or they're the lame "find a rare drop on a rare mob" quests that are mind-numbing torture. "Exploring" is pointless, as there's simply nothing to find. Levelling is pointless, as the XP grind just goes on forever with no real goal at the end.

So... what is there to do? Like I said, nothing.

The expansion is going to have plenty of new content for all levels.
Places to level does not equal content. Turbine has obviously made this mistake in its principles. Quests are garbage content, as "lore" is not content. I don't want to read all these stupid notes from Niartlh. Content means having something to do - something interesting, competing with and against other players for some reason. Bael'Zharon was content! Buruns are not content. Noone cares. They're not a "threat".

And I still have no reason to play other than that I don't have anything better to do ATM... soon as some better MMORPG comes out I'm gone. I think this attitude is common, and the continuation of the XP grind does not help.

[Awake33]

Way to go Brillbrasky, well said.

Meridian, you didn't really address what he said.

How does raising the level cap MAKE you xp grind?

It changes nothing other than giving you MORE for exceeding level 126.

Gee, which is better? Hitting level 126 and only being able to spend XP? Or continuing to recieve skill credits and spend xp? Doesn't take a genious to figure this one out.

As for everything from the last 6 months being aimed at "supermen", of which you listed VoD, BM, Caul. OK 2 out of the 3 listed, but there are far more quests and additions for lower levels than the 100+ crowd. Those 2 being a means of continuing to level at a reasonable rate of advancement. Any MMORPG will have this xp grind aspect. Did you ever play D&D on paper? Same thing, it's unavoidable. Unless you want a game that's just plain simplistic.

BM on the other hand has 3 tiers to it. If the first 2 tiers are not good enough for you, then there's your reason to reach level 100. Do you suggest they give the level 100+ rewards for BM to the level 70+ crowd?

The level 100+ BM1 quest is still hard, people 126+ die all the time on it. I got by without anything special for the first 100 levels. Whatever item you think someone is missing out on because it's designed for supermen are not needed, they are a bonus.

Most people seem to want UBER or nothing at all, kinda greedy IMO.

[meridian59gar]

This is like talking to a wall...

Meridian, you didn't really address what he said.

How does raising the level cap MAKE you xp grind?


Yes, I did address him. Raising the level cap, like everyone else here has said, is an indication that Turbine will be catering to supermen in the future. It's an indication that that trend will continue. I'm not level 250, and I likely never will be. I doubt I will be able to take part in anything Turbine decides to implement in the future.

And, seriously, quests and places to level are not content. Blackmire was fun for all of 3 hours, once a month. I don't care if they implement "all these new quests", as they're posted on a website and old as stale cheese in 24 hours. Heck, I did the war paint and all of the new 11% items in less than an hour all told, and now I'm not online anymore because I have nothing to do. True, I could go XP grind, but I don't like to. Thus, I have nothing to do.

We need something that is FUN TO DO! Can you point something out to me in AC that is FUN TO DO???

[ApolloAce]

meridian59gar,

No one can point you to it, not because it doesn't exist, but because no matter what we say folks like you and your friends will always say Turbine is only doing this to help the cheaters and make the game boring for the good, honest and loyal players.

Well I'm a good, honest and loyal player and you are wrong these changes are for us and for the future, they are good for this game and it will attract more good, honest, loyal players.

As to the cheaters?

They don't matter because this is for us.

[cute_bear_bear]

i hate the new level cap .... i want to enjoy a game, but not a unlimit level game

[meridian59gar]

ApolloAce, can you give me reasons as to why you play?

I'm gonna guess that you'll say something about interacting with other people. That's about the only real reason left. My response:
1: that's dead for most people, since we haven't had new people in forever.

2: AC is very impersonal. There's very little interaction with other people beyond fellowing temporarily for quests or maybe some patter over @a. I play this other MMORPG, I won't say the name because I'm not advertising, but that game has world-wide broadcasts, newsboards, and a world set up so that players congregate in certain places and everyone knows everyone else. I love, hate, interact with, and talk with other players constantly. I LOVE that game. My biggest interaction with other people on AC lately has been fellowing for 20 mins to do the 11% quest. I don't even remember the names of any of my fellows. For a game that's supposed to be social, my strongest early memories of AC when I was new are white dots flitting by on the radar every so often as people much higher level than me race by faster than I could ever run.

3: Also, the XP system actually interferes with social interaction. You can't hang out with people that are twice your level, because they're always doing stuff you can't go on. Extending the XP system to 275 will only make that problem worse.

[Lord-of-Light]

meridian, I still don't understand how increasing the level cap and including some content for higher level players constitutes "catering" to that segment of the population base. The alternative presumably would have been to ignore that segment of the playerbase...at least after Turbine concluded that our collective response to the "elder game" they first proposed was lukewarm at best.

If they are going to release an XPack at all, they have to move fairly quickly to do so. so they didn't have the luxury of coming up with a whole different concept of advanced player level play, and bouncing that off us once again, etc. (sure, as I noted in response to Osmenthe on tyhe ACV boards they could have adopted an AC2-like approach instead, but that would just have resulted in boodles of folks coming here complaining that they were trying to make the game the same/a clone of AC2...or "copy cats" if they had insted adopted a DAoC-type approach, etc..

And I still say that no one has proposed a viable/attractive, distinctive alternative to the "elder game" that Turbine initially proposed (and indicates it still intends to implement, albeit later in 2005).

Meanwhile, the XPack, as announced, still includes lots of stuff for non-uber players. A new player race. A new landmass...and presumably a whole set of lowbie/mid-range content for those new race chars on that new landmass...
and "rares" that can apparently be found by players of any level...

All along with graphics enhancements that almost everyone has been asking for...

Yet, because a portion of the XPack will also be of interest to higher level players, it -- on a summed up/cumulative basis -- somehow "caters" to them.

Give me a freakin' break!...(this again coming from a 4.5+ year player whose highest char is a lvl 62 -- just ask Sol, she can verify that, since I am, by far, the most underperforming member of her alleg on WE).

[meridian59gar]

"Including some content"? Have you not noticed that there is nothing worth doing that's not a "superman quest"? Yeah, have fun with the Composite Bow or Neydisa Hauberk quests. There's some real "content". New landmasses and a new race and new graphics are FINE, but they're not something to do. The new race is pretty much completely pointless... it's just a different skin. The new landmass - just more quests done to completion in 24 hours. We need a game-wide system that provides something do that's fun. We currently do not have that.

And I still say that no one has proposed a viable/attractive, distinctive alternative to the "elder game" that Turbine initially proposed (and indicates it still intends to implement, albeit later in 2005).

We're not supposed to. THEY are the AC designers - it's their job to think of something fun! However, if you think about it, there isn't really any kind of system at all that would fit into AC and provide us with months of fun activity. That's why I think AC isn't revivable - there's just no solution.

[Yinchi]

Lord, as a level 62, you should be able to see what is happening to the game now. They are upgrading dungeons and quests each patch.... to a higher level MoB. Anything left for lowers/mids is going fast or is not worth doing. The new patches come out with clones of upper level quests for lows/mids (such as BM) but, it would be far better to have fresh quests for people your level than do the same quest at level 60, level 80, level 90, level 100, etc.

I went to Mossie dungeon as a reroll on VT and was instantly killed, it was updated, I went to Lost Gardens, died, the same thing happened there. The bore is now full of VoD mobs. The level restriction of level 35 is laughable on some dungeons, you can't survive the run much less the quest.

Aerlinthe was updated this patch. Yes, you can still do the "Lady" the old way but they have upgraded the critters there to the point that you are swarmed and die. Btw, the lag there for us dial ups was a killer before, I won't try it now.

And remember.... that is now, with a cap of 126..... what happens with a cap of 275?

[morrigan]

What is happening to the ability to solo? IF what is going on is true. I am reading responses by players with comments " a level 90+ dies three times" on Aerlinthe?

Are they moving in the direction of needing groups now to hunt?

[Lord-of-Light]

Well, sorry, meridian and Yinchi. but I guess that we will just have to agree that we disagree...

Something being "fun to do" is, frankly, a pretty darn subjective assessment.

Some people have "fun" playing chess. Some people have "fun" crafting and/or collecting masks. Some people have fun assembling other cool and/or distinctive-looking outfits. Some people have fun tinking stuff, or trying to get stuff, "tinked" to the max. Some people have "fun" PKLing. Some people apparently have "fun" going to casinos. Some people apparently have "fun" (or at least for a while had "fun") fishing. Some people apparently have "fun" doing the same (if not many of the same quests) over and over...either just via a single char...or via an array of different chars. And obviously some people apparently have "fun" killing the same crits over and over day in and day out.

And if none of these things (or any one or more of much longer/larger list of other things that are available for you to do ingame) are not (or are no longer) "fun" for you, then it is to some extent up to you...and others who feel the way that you do...to throw up some ideas of what you think would be "fun"...and persuade the Devs directly (or indirectly via building some meaningful manifestation of other players' support) that this or that "something else" would be fun/make the game more "fun" for you and others.

To suggest that it is still up to the Devs to continue to come up with these kinds of ideas month-in/year-in-and-out is not only somewhat unrealistic, but an abdication of your own responsibility as a consumer. Do you think that Ford or GM or Toyota somehow come up with all their design/features ideas on their own (even though they all have "creative" staffs much larger than Turbine could ever aspire to having just to do so)? Do "Hollywood studios" somehow come up with all their ideas for new films on their own?...and, by the way, can you name one studio that has a more successful track record than Turbine does in terms of their creativity in providing divers "fun" content for their users' consumption? (Out of all those studio operations, Pixar is the only one that I can think of...and do you want to guess the magnitude differntiation between Pixar's budgets and Turbine's?)

[Note: I wouldn't want to begin to guess how many thousands of dollars I spent on games -- both software and the hardware systems to play same -- that I spent before I started playing AC, but literally hundreds of titles were involved, spread out over at least 7 or 8 different systems (several Atari systems, Colecovision, Intellivision I and II, several Nintendo systems, Pioneer's Laservision, TI's system, Sony PS, Apple II and APPLe II+, plus several others I'm sure I've forgotten to list)...representing at least several tens of thousands of dollars, and probably at least $50,000 in today's terms...and since I started playing AC more than 4.5 years ago, I've not bought a single other game, much less another console sytem to run it on...and with two accounts have spent less than $5000 total in all that time, and I'm still having "fun" with AC, even though it's fairly unlikely I'll ever have a single char even within sniffing range of 126.]

[Yinchi]

Lord, I did make a few suggestions. I am not a game developer so I don't know what is in the "tech". I do know that a level 275 cap is too extreme and it will be difficult for the developers to find things for everyone to keep them happy. When our highest level was 50, there were tons of content and quests for everyone. As people began to level, content grew old, the developers made new content but the old was not upgraded, there were so many levels now to make happy.

I simply think a leveling treadmill will not make Elders happy for very long and it will certainly discourage lowers.

Perhaps a Paladin system, where we turn in X amount of levels (not xps) in return for becoming a Paladin, a hero of Dereth, we would have an ability that no one else would have by sacrificing these levels. Perhaps we can fly. ;)

Someone made a post that would prevent UCM's and macros from gaining unfair advantage without using Envoy time. He had some GREAT ideas. :)

Something that would not be the usual, kill X, earn X amount of xps.

[ApolloAce]

meridian59gar,

ApolloAce, can you give me reasons as to why you play?

Certainly,

Yes interaction is one, I play with 5 people I know in real life.
As well I know several folks from the game.

Next would be that things change every month, from something as simple as a new quest, to upgrading of new quests, to some new story arc, todynamic changes to loot weapons armour and so on.

Third, to me looking things up may seem easier but learning for yourself is actually pretty fun. With this new monster weaknesses, strengths and so on. Of course if any of these sites go down or are inaccesible then you on your own ... lol. Frankly I like the idea I can play without any of those programs or some website ... lol. Things constantly change ... constantly learning or depending on websites or programs is your only alternatives.

1: that's dead for most people, since we haven't had new people in forever.

I have met 4 new folks on just one world, not much but very short of forever. When the expansion hits the shelves that number will greatly increase.

2: AC is very impersonal. There's very little interaction with other people beyond fellowing temporarily for quests or maybe some patter over @a. I play this other MMORPG, I won't say the name because I'm not advertising, but that game has world-wide broadcasts, newsboards, and a world set up so that players congregate in certain places and everyone knows everyone else. I love, hate, interact with, and talk with other players constantly. I LOVE that game. My biggest interaction with other people on AC lately has been fellowing for 20 mins to do the 11% quest. I don't even remember the names of any of my fellows. For a game that's supposed to be social, my strongest early memories of AC when I was new are white dots flitting by on the radar every so often as people much higher level than me race by faster than I could ever run.

Frankly except for my small group of friends I tend to play solo, but it's hardly as impersonal as you seem to think. I'm sure thier are several small and large active guilds that would agree with me.

3: Also, the XP system actually interferes with social interaction. You can't hang out with people that are twice your level, because they're always doing stuff you can't go on. Extending the XP system to 275 will only make that problem worse.

I kept 3 and now keep 4 characters since the extra slot was made available for play.

2 mules
1 between 1 and 25
1 between 50 and 80
1 between 80 and 110
1 110+

When the three lower chars reach the higher level through play I erase the top char (the 110+) and remake it. In this way I can play with anyone in my small group of friends or any given fellow and can enjoy any level of content.

I do have a second account which i tend to use for tinking and muling, most likely I will move them around to be able to work with higher content. :)

The end all being I still enjoy this game and wish to learn all I can, I still have fun because I choose to. :

[Winter]

I wonder if anyone takes into account that with the raise of the level cap, there will (most likely) be content to keep the grind down. They would have to or the extra level functionality would be a sick, sad joke.

[Yinchi]

"When the three lower chars reach the higher level through play I erase the top char (the 110+) and remake it. In this way I can play with anyone in my small group of friends or any given fellow and can enjoy any level of content."

Apollo, but what if instead of erasing that high level character, you could turn in his levels? At any point in the game, people could turn in their levels for something wonderful? It would not matter the level. At level 60, you would gain a never ending mana stone that glowed in the night. This would encourage new players to the game because there would be players to hunt with and the developers could concentrate on a smaller segment of levels.

Those "rares" instead of dropping could be given to players who had the courage to turn in their levels, you are now a Paladin. You showed courage beyond the call of duty.

[ApolloAce]

Well Yinchi as I understand it thats what the augmented gems are for.

As far as I know we have yet to be told wether the gems are usable for all players or for the higher content.

Possibly we should make the suggestion that they be available for all characters at any level, if they haven't already planned to do so.

The gems could be made to not only give the extra pack space but some sort of title if the player so chose.

But it's not nescessary to hold back folks that are interested in seeing higher levels to do this.

Some folks like to just power level it's what they do, thats what they enjoy.

Folks may not agree with them , but they do deserve as much consideration as any other player.

Then there are those that becaome attached to thier mains and to other chars they work on (As you see I am not one of them) and wish to continue with them in some fashion.

So you see it's not just the powerlevelers that are to be considered here.

Many folks for a myriad of reasons wish to continue with certain characters, it wouldn't be fair to tell them they can't simply because other folks believe they have to a certain level to enjoy content in our game. :)

[Yinchi]

Apollo, as I understand it, the augmentation gems take away from unspent xps, not levels. This is how those who are now maxed will be able to earn more xps. Those very high levels who are maxed out would certainly benefit from this type of gem.

People are more receptive to starting over for a new challenge than you realize. The servers saw a mass exodus when VT opened, here was a new challenge.

DT has a problem... it is very hard as a new player to join the community there. What if they were given the ring of invisibility for turning in their levels? The ring would give them invisibility for x amount of time. Something like this would be very hard to resist.

I was asked to find alternatives to the level cap proposed by Turbine if I disliked it so much, that is what I am doing, trying to find alternatives that would please everyone and try to keep the content down so it is not spread from 1-275.

I am a high level, I benefit from the plan that Turbine proposes but do I think it is good for the health of the game in the long run, no. I love AC, I want to see it going for years.

[Ibn]

I can't answer a lot of the questions on here yet, but one thing that I can say (because it was said in the Q&A) is this:

We are NOT NOT NOT abandoning content for any level of character. We are committed to continuing to introduce content for all levels, whether that's 20, 40, 80, 110, 150, 200, or what have you.

So the folks who have the opinion, "I have to powerlevel to 275 or else there will be no content for me"... I am happy to say that this is NOT the case.

[Ibn]

What is happening to the ability to solo? IF what is going on is true. I am reading responses by players with comments " a level 90+ dies three times" on Aerlinthe?

Are they moving in the direction of needing groups now to hunt?

There's a bug with the Aerlinthe spawns... a huge number of gens that are supposed to spawn 1-2 creatures/camps are actually spawning 2-3 creatures/camps. We'll be fixing this.

[ApolloAce]

As would anyone of high levels, including those that did it the "acceptable" way.

As to the new folks they "should" be at a disadvantage when it comes to the veterans.

As things are now a person can level alone to max level (126) within 3 or 4 months with little help. So if the present cap stays a large portion of the new folks will be high level within 6 months of the X-pac.

Now, that is not say your ideas arn't good ones and that some might wish them, others wish to see higher levels (and not just the levelers and UCMs), so there is no reason both can't be used.

My personal opinion is this is meant to put the final nail in the chain coffin.

Edit: For Spelling

[Danilo Thann]

ApolloAce, can you give me reasons as to why you play?

I'm gonna guess that you'll say something about interacting with other people. That's about the only real reason left. My response:
1: that's dead for most people, since we haven't had new people in forever.

2: AC is very impersonal. There's very little interaction with other people beyond fellowing temporarily for quests or maybe some patter over @a. I play this other MMORPG, I won't say the name because I'm not advertising, but that game has world-wide broadcasts, newsboards, and a world set up so that players congregate in certain places and everyone knows everyone else. I love, hate, interact with, and talk with other players constantly. I LOVE that game. My biggest interaction with other people on AC lately has been fellowing for 20 mins to do the 11% quest. I don't even remember the names of any of my fellows. For a game that's supposed to be social, my strongest early memories of AC when I was new are white dots flitting by on the radar every so often as people much higher level than me race by faster than I could ever run.

3: Also, the XP system actually interferes with social interaction. You can't hang out with people that are twice your level, because they're always doing stuff you can't go on. Extending the XP system to 275 will only make that problem worse.

I agree with what ApolloAce said regarding your post.

In short it would seem that you have failed to become associated with a group of people for some reason. I have been with my Allegiance for 4 years and we have a large number of people that we can do things with at all levels and in many games not just AC.

1) I meet new people in AC all the time.
2) I think AC is very personal.
3) after L 50 many things open up due to the fellow sharing. After L 80 you can access almost all things in the game. If you are being told you can't go since you are not high enough level then you may want to find some people that like you and are willing to take you along.

[Uriah]

OK,

All I'd like to add is the retention of some sort of recognition for finally getting my 1999 and 2000 characters over the 126 level mark..... It used to be the ability to get a nice screenie of a nice fireworks display...

I have enjoyed playing this game at my pace and have never made 126, my closest is 109 now and I was thinking to myself wow... I may actually hit the cap!... guess not... I don't PL, I don't macro, I do quests with a range of Chars from 29-109.... and I have fun... Guess I'll never get that Screenie of my mage making the HUGE fireworks display......

Maybe the smart programmers could run some sorta check... char created when? Hours spent getting to lvl 126? calculate... hey... this person has played a LONG LONG time... lets give em a nice unique, recognizable reward.

Oopps, what am I thinking... reward someone that doesn't constantly whine?


*smack head*
*wave high*
*talk to the hand*
*shoo*

*sigh*
*shrug*

the expansion better be pretty and content rich...

rofl

Ivana Ubermage of VT and MT


and no the VIlla is not for Sale tyvm

[Fiction_LC]

There will be lots of content for all levels.

[Rhynne]

Raise your hand if you remember what life was like in AC when it was first released...?

*raise hand*

Here's my .02 py on the myriad issues raised on this thread:

When I first bought AC (just after it was first commercially released) it was the most wonderful game I had ever, ever seen. A totally-online, MASSIVELY multiplayer RPG?? The scenery was amazing, the gameplay (moving around) was fast and it was by far the coolest thing I could imagine. I quit about a week after starting. Why? Because killing a Drudge was nearly impossible, dying every 5 minutes was a real downer, and you could forget about ever figuring out all those damn components to cast spells -- or to fizzle in the general direction of a phyntos wasp who was about to knock me into next Morningthaw. Add to that the monumental task of looting enough scratch to buy a set of leather bracers, and it just seemed like WAY too much work for me.

Boy was I wrong!! But, I suspect that many had similar "complaints" and so the developers at the time made what was, in my opinion, their biggest mistake ever: they made the game easier.

We are where we are in AC because of buffs and easy uber-loot, plain and simple (to me). The loot issue has seen many tweaks recently, I'm certain because it was just far too easy to gather in the past (not including the infamous "platmacro"). My level 70 axer could hunt in the Evis lair until burdened well over 200% without much fear of death...a simple /lifestone recall later and I had 5 or 6 MMDs for about 30 minutes of "hunting."

Buffs are a different subject, and let's be honest we ALL take advantage of them. There's not much chance the devs will "nerf" buffs (where the hell does that term come from anyway?? Isn't a nerf a Star Wars crittur, as in "scruffy-looking nerf herder??") so the fact remains that any new toon will be level 15 in the blink of a buff cycle. This is why VT was so enthralling to us all: the chance to actually have to earn xp on your toon's merits alone!

So, where does that leave us?

First, as I have learned in many years in the software business world, you MUST "cater" to your client base. While a magical inflow of n00bs would be wonderful, the fact is that this game thrives because of its existing players. And what we have here is what's known as a "mature client base." As such, they don't care too terribly much about enhancements for newbs -- frankly, there's plenty of newb stuff out there already. And as has been noted already, many (if not all) of the XPack changes are geared toward existing players -- of all levels. Sorry folks, increasing the level cap, a new race, etc. will have NO impact on bringing in new blood. As defined, n00bs have no functional prior knowledge of the game, so it would ALL be new to them! While boxes on shelves will help bring in new gamers, I believe the smart people at Turbine won't pander to new players at the expense of the existing ones. As long as the player base remains constant -- and maybe even grows slowly -- I think, from a business perspective, AC can be considered a success.

I think there's probably a lot of evidence out there that gamers tend to lose interest in a game once they've reached the top of the charts. From that standpoint, I think the new "cap" gives us something else to shoot for -- another milestone that for some will be their "raison d'etre" while for others (like me) it will be "cool" when or if it ever is reached. Despite what some have posted here, I believe that most people don't give a Wasteland Rat's patooty what level someone else may be, except perhaps for those who feel the need to constantly compare themselves to everyone else (harumph, MY takuba is bigger than HIS).

Whether you're into PvP or PvM, whether you're an "xp whore" or leisure-suit player, I think the thing that most gamers want is to be CHALLENGED. I'm hoping this is what someone else meant when referring to "fun" in an earlier post. This should be the goal of the devs every month, not just in the XPack. Frankly, I think they've done a pretty decent job of addressing the challenge issue -- with varying degrees of success -- with a fairly diverse group of gamers. I think it's fairly ignorant and close-minded to dismiss "out of hand" the work the devs are doing to address EVERYONE'S issues/concerns/desires in the upcoming XPack before it is released. However I think a robust discussion of the proposals is healthy!

My final point in this novella is in regard to the allegiance concerns. What I'd love to see is a modification of the allegiance system that focuses less on LEVEL and more on RANK (although, not necessarily the way "rank" is used now). In RL (that's all that stuff that goes on around your desk and occasionally interrupts you from playing AC ;-) rank in the military, in business, etc. is based more on how many people believe in, trust, or vote for you than how long you've been around. There are great athletes who make horrible team captains, and smart, experienced people who you would never elect for office (or promote to a management position). I'd like to see the rank system be largely independent of level, where increasing your rank requires some kind of "promotion" system -- perhaps an interactive quest that requires not only for you to complete the quest, but for others to support or vote for you as well. They could adjust the xp passup system to account for the level differences, and you wouldn't have to worry about being locked out of the monarchy. This would allow ambitious "lower-level" toons to campaign for higher rank (and therefore more vassals) but would restrict the xp benefits of having a lower-ranked patron or monarch. Not to mention the fact you'd have to work for higher rank, rather than just making it a byproduct of xp/leveling. They could even make the rank requirement on items actually mean something!

Anyway, that's my input for now...that and 15 py will buy you a cup of sake in Baishi.

Rhynne/Kayleb et al

[n8bowa]

It appears Turbine is trying to make this game viable far into the future.

We need to keep in mind this game has been played for 5 years.

Nobody coming into a game that old shouls expect to be on a level playing ground with old players.

If they do then I think those folks need a reality check.

We have several folks 100+, 126+, 150+, and 180+ that claim never to have used any programs to get there.

Certainley we need to consider the folks that did, thats always a problem in any game, all games have them.

Eitherway by raising the cap Turbine has made leveling viable and possible for 5, 10 and 15 years.

The whole point is to keep our game around for years to come not create a cap that most folks can hit within 6 months on all thier characters. Folks will just leave if there is no future.

Not everyone will continually reroll.

A very difficult to unattainable goal is better then a goal reached in no time at all. :)

I must agree 100%. It should take a long freakin' time to get to 275. One of the biggest mistakes most MMO's make is making a quickly accessible ultimate high. Making the highest cap take years of experience and playing time to reach leaves an almost interminable future for the longetivity of AC. Games get boring once you've completed them--once you've reached the all time high. Asheron's Call would benefit from this addition of extended longetivity.

Turbine should not cater to those who believe they should be able to get to the highest level by only playing a few hours or less a day. Playing a game is not about "getting to the highest level as fast as possible". People who see it this way are blind to what they really want. It's really about the journey in between, not getting to the top. The longer the journey, the longer the experience.

Turbines next task is keeping people enthralled throughout that experience.

Not EVERYONE should be able to reach this high of a level. It should be set aside for those who really work at it hard. Levels of such high should leave newbs feeling awstruck and dumbfounded. I remember seeing my first level 100+ when I use to play. It was quite a great feeling.

[meridian59gar]

<< One of the biggest mistakes most MMO's make is making a quickly accessible ultimate high. >>

No... the biggest mistake is not doing that. The game shouldn't be about building. We should have things to do once we're built... that's when the actual game of questing, exploring, and building a community should begin.

AC does not have any end-game at all. Turbine's survival is solely dependent upon how long they can trick their customers into believing the game has a point.

[MaddyFF]

The game shouldn't be about building. We should have things to do once we're built... that's when the actual game of questing, exploring, and building a community should begin.


The game should be about all of those at all levels. s you build your character, those other things should scale with you.

I can't think of any MMORPG out there that really has an end-game, Shadowbane is about the closest.

[God Slayer]

wait, meridian? so you're saying that playing a game has a point? other than just entertiaining you?

sweet what is it? quick tell me, does it solve world hunger?

last i checke, turbine is making an eldergame for people, maybe you should read betta ;)

[Nocturne]

Listen, there are a few things that have caused the downfall of AC that they really need to work on. As a former co-quest leader for the largest monarchy on Leafcull, Gekkonidae's Legions of Dereth, I noticed many dwindling numbers on my events I ran.

Why?

Because XP matters "more" than quests to a majority of the player base. I'll be honest, I've put a few good hours of PL'ing first over a nice quest.

Look at the Tusk Quests - on average, I can get the lower two percent tusks in a buff (1 Hour). That means, assuming I wait until 125 to turn it in, I get only like 16 million experience... Whereas I can make more now in powerlevelling hunts.

So, AC's first downfall is powerlevelling dungeons with monsters worth a ton of experience. This started with the BSD's, Metos's, and the OHN's back yesteryear. :) This continued with certain other dungeons, like the Eviscerator dungeon and now currently in the limelight is the Phyntos Menace, pushing over 15 million an hour.

Granted, I think VoD and Caul are justified to push ~40 and ~30 Million per hour because of their degree of preparation, requirements (attack types), and difficulty....

But please? Do level 40 people really need to be hunting wasps for 10+ per hour? You can get like 10 levels a day, easily there.

This is why people powerlevel to get better characters, there's no alternative.

Turbine is *NOW* nerfing the alchemist/chef/fletching quests because of sellback exploits over a year since it's been in the game. Annoying. The rich get richer, it seems, as always.


My SUGGESTION is to make the quest rewards more AC2-like. This was one of the features I loved in AC2. You can go on quests and generate more experience than you could with powerlevelling.

Certain things I'd like to see:
-Sword of Lost Light worth 25% XP, XP Reward on 3 month timer.
-Silifi of Crimson Stars worth 25% XP, XP Reward 1-Time Only.
-10% Per Atlan Stone Reward, Repeatable every 3 months.
-Double Pincer rewards for Eviscerator, Legionary, and below.
-Double current Tusk Percentage Rewards. The dungeons aren't camped anymore and it seems to be quite a formidable challenge, perhaps not worth the effort to get there.
-Double the Gaerlan Sword (Iasparailaun) experience.
-In essence, just put major quests with a boatload of experience so you don't have to slave away in a dungeon for weeks and pop out 30 levels higher.

IE: Giving Healer's Heart to an NPC will get you 40M, Giving Branith's Shirt and Staff to Celcynd gives you 10M, Giving Elysa's Favor back to the NPC instead of using it gets you 40M, etc.

JUST keep the reward frequency in check so you can't go off and do all of them constantly.



SECONDLY, the other downfall in the game was housing settlement portals. People don't have to run more than five minutes in any direction to get anywhere now. I remember running for an HOUR at least to get to Stonehold for the SoLL dungeon in early retail! I don't know if removing settlement portals is a good idea at this point. It will be hell on turbine if they try to consolidate servers because of housing now.



CONVERSELY, I think I should give Turbine credit where it is due. I love the fellowship changes in the game with the XP sharing. Fellowships are "useable" again (and I know this has been in the game since ACDM), also, I think the TIERED weapons are a great thing too, with 290+ for the best bows, etc. Have you considered tiered armor? Each Steel Tinker to an Amuli, Koujia, or Celdon item increases level wield requirement by 5? It's kind of silly to have your noob running around in AL 650 buffed Amuli (after Impen) and watch the drudges hit for -5. :)
Anyway, thoughts, suggestions?

[culling]

I have a good idea, Lets not and say we did, AC2 sucks compaired to AC1 that is why you play AC1, Now you want to make it AC2. Please nocturn go back to AC2. Thank you for your time!

culling

[Nocturne]

Would you care to elaborate on why you disagree with the post, rather than just flaming it? By the way, I played AC2 for the free month, it wasn't my thing. That's why I'm back here.

I'd think that you'd support it since (I noticed on the other thread) you and your wife are casual gamers. These questing rewards would allow casual gamers to get a little higher level without spending 40+ hours cramped in a dungeon, levelling.