Give us your feedback on the August event! [Archive]

Septa Scarabae

08-11-2004, 03:42 PM

It's only 20 less AL, but has considerably less weight and it's no-drop.

But they were Bonded and had 800 less burden before, too.

Pre-Patch AL:

Hoary 40
Blue Canescent 40 [bonded]
Red Canescent 60 [bonded]
Swarthy 50

Current AL:

Hoary 150
Blue Canescent 120 [bonded]
Red Canescent 130 [bonded]
Swarthy 200

You also have to ask yourself the question, how often are you actually going to drop a 4000p robe? Seldomly. I'm not saying it was a bad choice to bring the Hoary and Swarthy up to par, but in doing so you left the Canescent robe in the dust. By the looks of it, it's pretty useless, expecially since Canescent Mattekar have become scarce since the Marae Lassel update. *shrug*

Britana tells you, "Greetings brave adventurer! My name is Britana, perhaps you've heard of my...never mind, he isn't important anyway. What is important is have I got a deal for you! Perhaps you have heard of a small fashion accessory...The Hoary Mattekar Robe? Yes, I am sure you have. Well, unlike some other who seek to perpetuate fraud upon the Isparian public with cheap knockoffs, Britana only provides the real thing."

Britana tells you, "I have come to this island upon hearing reports of a great white beast that stalks its northern coasts. Rumor has it this is a Mattekar straight out of legend, come to rid the island of its troublesome denizens. Which denizens, you ask? Legend does not say."

Britana tells you, "But what I say is that a Mattekar this large and strong must produce a robe which makes the Hoary robe seem like a bath rug! Bring me this mattekar pelt, and I will craft you a robe fit for a king!"

Just seems like the Canescent robe is more along the lines of a bath rug now..

Jet-eye-nite

08-11-2004, 04:11 PM

I figure there is madness to your updating towns ,but wonder why not update towns chars frequent such as Hebian-to or Holtburg as apposed to out lying areas ? :confused:

Flynn

08-11-2004, 04:23 PM

I figure there is madness to your updating towns ,but wonder why not update towns chars frequent such as Hebian-to or Holtburg as apposed to out lying areas ? :confused:
Excerpt from April 2004 Letter to the Players (http://ac.turbinegames.com/index.php?page_id=223#revision):
'We are revising two towns and two quests in April. Holtburg will be revised in the same way that Shoushi and Yaraq were previously.'

Heideggar

08-11-2004, 05:44 PM

Ibn, at least for me, it's that fact that it's been so long since Turbine has _known_ that mansions have not been worth their costs and what Turbine has done since then. You gotta admit lol, 13+ months is a long time to brainstorm on a solid plan to fix that situation, and you guys haven't done much at all about it.

Say, ibn, what ever happened to Turbine trying to make it easier for people to get to the storage?

I remember you and I B.S.'ing at my mansion long ago, and you had brought up that Turbine was looking to solve that "run through 6 doors, 3 flights of stairs and a portal to get to storage" issue.

Anything new on that one?

I mean... mansions are suppose to be the number one housing unit, right Ibn? They're suppose to be designed for allegiances, thus giving the most allegiance abilities meriting their cost, right Ibn?

I'm just making sure things haven't changed in the last 13 months on this hehe.

Oh, lets not forget about your lovely patron-vassal allegiance changes. I find it fantastic that Turbine wants to reward the patron-vassal relationship. I find it poor design and rather... dumb on Turbine's part, to not reward a monarch-allegiance relationship. Ibn, you guys want people to help other people in the game, right? I mean, that's why you have the patron-vassal xp passup thing as it is. Why don't you wanna do the same thing for monarchs, who every knows do a lot for their entire allegiance, not just directs?

And lastly, why are these things not a big enough priority to merit being done in a timely fashion? It seems that a few projects were put aside because of a lack of interest for them. Frankly don't see that with mansions and this monarch issue. I see threads made weekly with many responses from players, but almost never from Devs.

It's seriously disappointing.

Ganzor

08-11-2004, 05:48 PM

This isn't really directly related to this patch, but along the lines of town portal drops...

The Hea town on ML that I can never spell, the portal from Bluespire still dropped a bit away from the town as of last month, I was just curious if that had a chance of getting updated. It's always intersting to see if my mule is going to die because there's a monster too close to the drop when I hit it.

Illuminator

08-11-2004, 06:31 PM

Shaolin

08-11-2004, 06:33 PM

Excellent job so far...

Very usefull items instead of junk to not bother with,
Aerlinthe was fun to visit, not for the quest yet but just to look around
nice to find some mobs worth hunting.

the Bleeargh quests are great too.

Ty for my shaolin robe btw :P

all in all, so far it seems a lot of stuff to look at and do, and all worth while to boot.

see how easy it is to please the fanbase ;)

Paraduck

08-11-2004, 09:06 PM

Regarding Lifestone Sending and the mansion love: It's very interesting. However, why do I have to target another player to send MYSELF to a lifestone? Is it working as intended, or are we supposed to send other players to their lifestone (would be easy to grief unless there was a confrimation dialogue) or teleport the caster to the selected player's lifestone (which would be really cool?)

Deiwos_WE

08-11-2004, 10:40 PM

My fiancee and I were exploring Aerlinthe outside...we were on the far northern cliffs, looking around near the edge, when all of sudden a bunch of damage showed up and we were dead. Neither of us jumped, in fact I was standing still talking at the time. She died at 91.7N, 47.8E and I was at 92.0N, 45.3E.

So, are invisible foes pushing us off cliffs now? ;)

Brell

08-11-2004, 11:31 PM

Mages Loop, Mage's Understanding, Diff. 100, Value 9,000, 50BU, 11% to mana c
Clasp of the Heart, The Heart's Touch, Diff. 100, Value 9,000, 50BU, 11% to life magic
Clasp of the Arm, The Art of Destruction, Diff. 100, Value 9,000, 50BU, 11% to war magic
Ring of Enhancement, Gift of Enhancement, Diff. 100, Value 9,000, 50BU, 11% to creature magic

Actually - the items don't function according to their description. This is how they work:

They give you 11% to your base skill (with any attribute buffs, excluding cantrips). They DO stack with additional cantrips - but they surpass the level VII equivalent of the spell (for Creature: Adja's Blessing)... BUT they do so - EVEN though they may reduce your skill's. This HAS to be a bug!

In other words... if you have a Base War of 350 - buffing yourself with War Mastery VII, Willpower VII and Focus VII will give you +60 to War... putting on the bracelet will make it +61 to War (Base War of 351 will make it +62 to War). For someone with War Maxed, I take it the addition will be 3-4 points in War. Is this working as intended?

BUT... if you dont have a skill specced - and perhaps have a Base Creature skill of 280 - you buff yourself with Creature, Focus and Will VII, and your creature is now 340. Put on the Creature ring - and your creature skill is now 333 - that is SEVEN POINTS LOWER than with Adja's Blessing.

So essentially - these items are more or less useless unless your skills are specced - and reasonably high base (350+), except for the odd occation, where your character has a hard time getting the first level VII spells down (while buffing). Then it might be a good idea to put on the ring, and then take it off again as soon as you have landed Adja's Blessing.

See ya out there, Brell

Cuttler

08-11-2004, 11:40 PM

A comment on mansions:

I don't see any available mansions; so the supply and demand for what they offer must be working.

Come to MT, there is usually 2 or 3 available at any given time.

Orion

08-11-2004, 11:50 PM

-Vlaid-

08-12-2004, 12:02 AM

I'm kinda irritated that you will be removing the portal sending spell. I thought it was item enchantment love in a form that people with item can recall to their /lifestone (not lifestone tie) faster than having to wait the 10 seconds for /lifestone animation. Please take this into consideration.

MisatoX

08-12-2004, 12:10 AM

I'll probably get flamed, but I didn't find anything fun about this patch. Ran through most of the quests quickly since they weren't hard, and didn't really have any fun on them.

Ran all around Aerlinthe. Would be nice if you could cut down on the number of enemies placed in each mob. Seems more packed there then sprinting down the middle of Tusker Isle. Very laggy. Wasn't a big deal since they can't hit me, but I'd hate to be a lv40-60 trying to hunt or just run around the harbor there.

dekuro

08-12-2004, 12:16 AM

I'm very disappointed in the book quest.
the rings and bracelets look cool and all but are quite worthless.

I'm sorry but this ONLY helps people with very high or maxed skills, my mage is lv 111 and base war is 338 and i get a whopping -1 to war when used...ofcourse this may help if i wasnt able to cast lv 7 spells, but anyone with a base high enough to be worth using this is most likely to have enough critter to cast lv 7.

i just dont even see the point. why not make it like +5% stackable or a moderate or something so that it would be atleast worth while to get?

Fzzt

08-12-2004, 01:52 AM

** Edit: was just reminded that you did indeed warn people, I even read it but must have glossed over that part - my bad.

You may want to warn people about the /loadfile command and recursion.

I thought it'd be fun to have my guy do a little emote dance so after creating a half dozen dance type moves I included a line that pointed back to the original text file. ~ Yes I know but I thought it might just loop nicely ~

However what it did was lock up my client for about 25 seconds and when things started moving in the client again, I saw that I was gagged and the gag timer was skyrocketing upwards. I quickly Shift + Esc out but not before my toon got gagged for 3.5hr.

This IS my fault so I'm not angry, actually find it funny but for those who may not be aware of the consequences let this be your warning! :D

Fzzt of FF - plz don't message me for another 3h and 10m ROFL

~ It could be that the purpose of your life is to serve as a warning sign to others. ~

NinjaGoblin

08-12-2004, 01:56 AM

If the lower end of the spectrum is 250 base, which the items require to use that is a 28 point boost(if I did my math right), seven less than a Creature VI mastery, and anyone with 250 base in a magic skill has more than enough to cast that. I fail to see how they are a "crutch at the lower end of the spectrum."

I am level 118 and lose three points of spec Life magic if I use the item.

I am tired of going on new quests and always muling what I get as a reward.

Hopeslayer

08-12-2004, 02:01 AM

Im with the last few I went to get the items so that my Archer could maybe start landing on the VOD things a little better.. Not all of us group hunt its what i trully LOVE about AC.

but when i put it on i lost points. Im max in Focus Self (base is 100 focus 10 self) and like 1-2 points from max in life.. Trained

Little diapointed

on a side note ******** Why is it that you lose +10 to melee when putting on the agis on bows... but melees still get there having a +5 bow now a -5 one is a bit unsettling. ANd they do it one time and can take it off and on...

We have to have it perminant now i need 2 sets of bows if i want a time where melee means more then blockign a spell.

Is I think maybe you should make it an armor imbue that has a bow/Cbow/At activation require. that way it dont affact our bows its hard enogh to have 1 full set.

Magik Brute of

08-12-2004, 02:06 AM

Brell,

Working as designed. They are meant to help you at the top end of the spectrum and be used as a nice little crutch at the lower end of the spectrum.

If they stacked with 7's they would be far too unbalancing. Their a bit stronger than level 7 spells at the very top end of things.

Orion,

They why even put them in? I am near the top end of the scale with my Spec'd war magic and I lost 5 pts when I put this on.

I can not imagine that is how it was intend to be it's use. If it is I may as well just TC them all now and save the mule space. I have better quet jewlery as is. Heck the Bracelet of Vim gives me +15 to Health, Stam, and Mana and the Braclet of Dark Essance has 2 majors on it. I use the +15 Magic def Necklace and the Mana Con Ring.

Magik Brute of LC

FmrSentFlatfoot

08-12-2004, 02:17 AM

This sure caught my eye and brought forth a gag and a hearty laugh:

The Sublime Elari Wood Bow required you to have Bow specialized in addition to other requirements in order to activate the magic on the weapon. This was not by design and has been removed.

Seems "This was not by design" is becoming Turbine's favorite saying. Um, guys? The Elari has been around for THREE years, designed and put in NOT by any current dev working for Turbine. Come on, be serious... three years! What did you do, get in contact with the one(s) who designed/created it and ask "Oh hey, did you intend it the way it was done.. or did you goof up?" and they'd answer "Um, gee.. now that you mention it, we did goof up! Yeah! That's it! We didn't MEAN to make it like we did.. you guys better change it!"

LOL You gotta stop doing this every patch.. saying something was not by design. OF COURSE it was by design!! It's been part of the game for THREE years! Don't come and tell us NOW that it wasn't supposed to be like it's been for THREE years... it just makes you look even more unprofessional. It's the exact same as when you decided to let us all know that the Attack Modifier on Missile Weapons never functioned.... it was there all that time, and no one even knew it didn't work.. not even the designers! Geez... lol

Apart from this... patch appears to be better this time around. I did figure you could've made the robes even better, seeing as the Reaper Robe was already AL185, and would've been nice to see that go up as well; allowing people to use a robe if they wished, for decent base protection.

tirador

08-12-2004, 02:18 AM

Seriously disturbed to see RETIRED pack dolls showing up as rewards for Thanking stones.

Many people go to great time and trouble to collect rare items. You undermine th eeffects of this when you re-release these. "We can't invest in anything because as soon as we do, they destroy its value" is the gist of the gripe I hear. IS there a "collector-hate" mechanism at work here? Many of these items were "rewards" for screwups on your part anyway, and to nerf them now is heinous, especially to those who held onto original sets only to see their value, both real and sentimental, diminished.

I too, am disappointed by most of the "goodies" i have found so far, though i like the look and effect of the silk wrap. But I do look at the effort i have put in so far (not much) and think that they are worth that:). I am tantalized by the hints of other, better things out there :) :confused:

Nergal

08-12-2004, 02:20 AM

I whole heartedly agree with everyone else on the book quest. It is useless for anyone except for high end characters. Case and point being that you need a 373 skill to get a +41 your skill, thereby beating the level 7 spell by 1. As for it being stated that they are a little crutch for the lower end of the spectrum, well I find flaw in that. Your skill would need to be at the following levels to equal the critter buffs: 318 for level 6, 273 for level 5. 11/100 = y/x (were y equals the buff from the appropriate level spell. Simple math yields those results and since a character with a 318 skill can cast a level 7 spell why would they need these? Simply put wear the stuff if you aren't maxed and lose points. Gotta love that :(.

Can someone please tell me how these might be useful to a level 100 mage with bases of less than the 373 required to get that extra point, because I just don't see it.

Why not just have the bonus adjusted down to a stackable 3 to 5% as opposed to what it is now. That wouldn't be too unbalancing would it? I mean it would only be a bonus of 15 points (5%) at a base skill of 300. Weapons give that bonus and then some, usually a 20%+. Just my humble two cents.

Oatmeal

08-12-2004, 03:23 AM

I'm with tirador on the pack dolls issue, as is everyone else who spent time collecting these. I spent many many hours hunting and trading just so I could get these "retired" items and to have them reintroducted is a HUGE slap in the face. The only reason I could see them doing this is so that people on VT would have access to them but I for one think that is a terrible reason and am very angry by this. I for one will anxiously await to see if the reintroduced all of them or just a select few.

As to the new items ... they're easy to get, you can't expect for them to be highly useful. I for one love the silk wrap so I'm not overly concerned with the uselessness of the other items.

I'd really like to see a comment on the pack dolls situation. I know many users are ticked off.

Sick nick

08-12-2004, 04:06 AM

The magic defence fellowship scrolls, lvl 5 and 7, on description says they're focus spells. Same description is in learn spell list (being focus spell) and when listed in benificial spells but... You cast Potent Sanctifier of the Clutch on yourself, surpassing Aura of Resistance. Seems to be working though. :D

Wolf of Dereth

08-12-2004, 04:06 AM

on the toad idol quest for the fellowship scrolls the Magic D spells when ID'd say they are focus however they do cast as Magic D

guess this may just be a typo but wanted to inform you about the issue

Wolf, TD_AC

Surfal

08-12-2004, 06:16 AM

Reintroduction of retired pack dolls without warning?

I'm speechless.

Downtime? I never complain - I understand how it is.
Bugs? Again, I never complain - I understand that we're all human.
Bad design decisions? I'll debate them and argue to make my point, but in the end I trust you all to make the decisions that are best for the game.

But this is the single most devastating decision you've made in my AC career.

I have slaved for YEARS to put together an unparalleled collection of pack dolls. They are the pride and joy of my AC experience, topped only by the friends I have made and known.

I have never, EVER been this close to walking away from this game. I never expected it to be POSSIBLE to be this close to walking away from this game. Sure, I realize that's pretty damn silly, but again and again we have been PROMISED that decisions like this one would be discussed before implementation with the playerbase.

I've never felt betrayed by the dev team before this. Ibn, Mirin, why? WHY?

So much of my effort and pride devalued so carelessly.

tirador

08-12-2004, 06:28 AM

Surfal,

I am also pretty well stunned at the magnitude with which this has struck me. I don't quite understand it, except that I had just completed my own set.

Just my way of saying "+1"

Surfal

08-12-2004, 06:36 AM

Thanks, Tirador. I expect you'll understand that I scrimped, traded, saved, bartered, worked mules and accounts cross-server, and in general worked my *** off to get my 7 full sets. Hell, I have a character pretty much set aside to hold my pack dolls and a few other sentimental items.

I really can't explain how much this hurts.

boneyard

08-12-2004, 06:45 AM

for years the high end characters have asked for some things they could use (dont know the exact numbers but its certainly more then 1 point), now they finally once get something and suddenly many others complain about it. lots of stuff which gets added isnt usuable for everyone, thats just how it works.

FmrSentFlatfoot

08-12-2004, 07:10 AM

I'm not going to call anyone a whiner, as people have called me one a few times and I figure that's pretty low. But I think I must remind those who are upset about the re-release of pack dolls, try and remember back to when Hoary Mattekar Robes were being sold on Ebay for hundreds of RL dollars.... yes, that's right... not pyreals, but cold hard American Cashola in the hundreds. That makes the pack doll issue pale in comparison, and why it makes it pale in comparison is because of all the people who were wearing their cool, very rare $100 to $300+ White Robe, see their investment made worthless when they brought back the Hoary Mattekar, which was hunted to extinction (figure of speech, as they're still out there) and almost everyone had one, and now this patch again will cause people to hunt them down for another hide or three.

I sympathize with you, because I also acquired a decent collection of pack dolls. But also, remember all the times a lot or maybe even all of us at one point or another joked about how nice it would be if for some error that Turbine made, or for downtime etc., etc., that we be given a pack doll? Welp, now they've done just that.

Not much we can do about it... just accept that it's now just "another" item available to pretty much anyone who wants. :(

Ibn

08-12-2004, 11:40 AM

Mages Loop cast Mage's Understanding on you, surpassing Nuhmudira's Blessing
ok, but why does it surpass a cantrip that is higher than it.
It surpasses the Ring of Intelect reducing your, well my, mana conv by 12 points.

I just tested it -- Mage's Understanding surpasses the Mana Conversion Mastery V on the Ring of Intellect, but it does NOT surpass the Moderate Mana Conversion on the Ring. The 11% spells surpass I-VII spells, but stack with cantrips.

Ibn

08-12-2004, 11:43 AM

Ibn

08-12-2004, 11:44 AM

Seriously disturbed to see RETIRED pack dolls showing up as rewards for Thanking stones.

Have we ever said "the pack dolls will never ever be available again"? I don't believe we have, although I could be wrong.

We always reserve the right to bring back items from the past. This is a changing game and a changing world.

(edit, addition)

Just so folks know where I'm coming from here... when the pack dolls first went in, I spent MONTHS doing cross-server trades and the like so that I could complete a full collection on my main character. (This was long before I started working at Turbine.) I'm a packrat and collector by nature. So in theory I am one of the people "hurt" by this change.

But here's the thing: The fact that now other people can get some of these packdolls again doesn't change the fact that I still have a full set. I worked hard for my full set and I'm proud of it. Someone else being able to get a bunch of them doesn't take that away from me.

Now the one exception I can see is this: If I were holding on to these pack dolls and planning on using them for trade fodder, well my investment has just decreased in value. But all investments carry some amount of risk.

Surfal

08-12-2004, 12:06 PM

But Ibn - we have been repeatedly assured that decisions that affect the playerbase, as this one obviously does, will be discussed beforehand.

This is not a situation where the change needed to be made for balance or fair play issues.

Even if we were to somehow postulate that this needed to go in without discussion, the simple expedient of giving the "new" dolls a different icon to preserve the collectability and PRIDE OF OWNERSHIP of the originals is really something I feel is inappropriate to not do - and I don't think you can reasonably argue otherwise.

The dev team has to learn that we who have been been playing for so long (and PAYING for so long) have some measure of pride and ownership in our characters and the "things" we have won through our time and efforts.
ANY change needs to be held up against that looking glass and efforts made to ameliorate possible effects to your loyal playerbase.

When you don't do that, as here, you betray the trust of those players.

Alex, Kim, the rest of you - I for one am clearly disappointed in you. You have done so much better in the past. Please look at your methodology and don't repeat this kind of mistake in the future.

sylphia

08-12-2004, 12:44 PM

If you sepnd thousands of sings to collect items that serve absolutely no purpose in-game other than to sit there on hooks, because your hobby is collecting stuff, thats your choice. No one forced you to spend such an outrageous sum for items that are useless as anything other than decoration. No one else is responsible for making you "feel good" about your decision to spend such a large sum of resources. Your feel-good buzz comes from acquiring the items in the first place. Even if they are re-introduced later, that doesnt take away your rush of acquisition. Last I checked, the fun in collecting was the getting, not the having. Once you have them--there is nothing left. They just sit there, being ignored while you go to VOD and stomp the latest critter addition.

This is rather like the Furbies or the Pound Puppies or Cabage Patch Kids or any of the other hundres of useless collectables that ppl spend fortunes on IRL (How about that one couple that has every toy that ever came out of a McDonald's Happy Meal???). They serve absolutely zero purpose, other than to warn everyone that sees them that you are nuts, in a way that words simply cant express :p

There is no game breaking change in mechanics here. Your sword toon didnt suddenly have his damaged halved; your mage didnt suddenly get an increase of difficulty in spellcasting by 50 points across the board, your archer didnt suddenly lose the ability to increase his skill with the slider bar. Packdolls were added as an "Im sorry" for server issues a long time ago, nothing more. Having a full set doesnt open the secret door to infinite XP or phat loot. It changes NOTHING about game mechanics for you. And many folks HAVE actually asked for them to be added back in (no i am NOT one of them). Adding them back in doesnt take any of them OUT of your collections.

Those of you crucifying Turbine like they have somehow destroyed the game by adding collectables back in should be slapped with a fish. You act like they have added some game-breaking new mechanic to the game. They havent. Collecting may be your thing, but that doesnt call for all this grief. Adding packdolls back to the game does not equate to making changes to game mechanics.

Now, being reasonable--Turbine SHOULD add in more to collectables. Martine dolls, BZ dolls, Asheron dolls, Elysa dolls (all of our major players, including the named NPCs in towns and dungeons, such as Celdiseth and Celycynd). When a new NPC of notoriety emerges (such as Bleargh), a packdoll of him/her should arrive that month or the next. For those who truly DO have the collecting bug, this would give you something to chase after again. It would be like Christmas Eve at Toys R Us, with 10 women fighting over the last Power Ranger, but if thats what makes you happy.... :eek:

Nauscicaa

08-12-2004, 01:15 PM

The fact that now other people can get some of these packdolls again doesn't change the fact that I still have a full set. I worked hard for my full set and I'm proud of it. Someone else being able to get a bunch of them doesn't take that away from me.

You are partially right there Ibn, I am a collector too but getting a complete set is only part of the fun, what makes it more fun is the exclusivity of the collection.
The blue energy crystal is one of the most sought after items for collectors, and they pay lots for it, however the monetary value is irrelevant if you buy it as a collector and not as an investor.

Owning a guy in a glass ball was one of the coolest things in game for a long time, when Turbine made them spawn in every nook and corner of Dererth everyone owned one and noone cared anymore, exit coolness.

Please make at least a small change to things you reintroduce, like an icon change or a colour change.

Grilgar

08-12-2004, 01:21 PM

Reintroduction of retired pack dolls without warning?

...

But this is the single most devastating decision you've made in my AC career.

...
I've never felt betrayed by the dev team before this. Ibn, Mirin, why? WHY?

So much of my effort and pride devalued so carelessly.

Oh, please. Give it a rest. If all you're doing is enjoying the "Beautiful collection" why do you care if others have it too? Have a little cheese with your whine.

boneyard

08-12-2004, 01:30 PM

But Ibn - we have been repeatedly assured that decisions that affect the playerbase, as this one obviously does, will be discussed beforehand. removing magic would be something that needs to be discussed :) but adding packdolls again isnt.

FmrSentFlatfoot

08-12-2004, 01:31 PM

The Sublime Elari Bow was introduced during the Marae revisions a few months ago. You're thinking of the Exquisite Elari Bow.

Doh! Sorry :D

Shadow_Z_II

08-12-2004, 01:43 PM

Yes please different icon / minor change !

On the bright side i can now get a set on VT to put in my soon to purchase mansion :)

Z'

Deiwos_WE

08-12-2004, 02:12 PM

There is no game breaking change in mechanics here. Your sword toon didnt suddenly have his damaged halved; your mage didnt suddenly get an increase of difficulty in spellcasting by 50 points across the board, your archer didnt suddenly lose the ability to increase his skill with the slider bar. Packdolls were added as an "Im sorry" for server issues a long time ago, nothing more. Having a full set doesnt open the secret door to infinite XP or phat loot. It changes NOTHING about game mechanics for you. And many folks HAVE actually asked for them to be added back in (no i am NOT one of them). Adding them back in doesnt take any of them OUT of your collections.

Ok, first off...I've never collected a pack doll in my life...I personally am not affected by this change AT ALL.

But, I have a REAL problem with the above paragraph, and the underlying attitude that leads many players (not just sylphia) to it as a conclusion.

What you just listed as "game mechanics" are COMBAT mechanics. To suggest that combat mechanics are the sum total of a class of thing called "game mechanics" is extremely elitist. The drop rate on any loot, including pack dolls, IS a game mechanic. How crafting works, imbuing works, chat works, what benefits accrue to mansion ownership...these are all also game mechanics. To suggest otherwise is to buy into the concept that AC is nothing but a leveling treadmill where only combat matters.

Now, clearly combat is at the center of AC. Even those people who after 4 years are only level 60 (or whatever) still engaged in combat to get there. BUT, while central to AC, it is FAR from the only aspect of AC. If chat suddenly stopped working, or worked VERY differently from today, that would be an ENORMOUS change to a game mechanic. Likewise, when previously rare items become common, that is a LARGE change in game mechanics.

We can argue if such changes are good or bad, but to argue they're unimportant because they're not changes to "game mechanics"...well, that's an attitude I'll never accept or agree with, even when I have no vested interest in the underlying change.

I'm willing to bet that, to those people who collect pack dolls, this change is AT LEAST as damaging as the nerf to Margul xp is to the powerlevelers...probably moreso, since the powerlevelers will still find their xp, and still advance ahead of the res of us, which is important to their game enjoyment.

Basically, what I see is that the collectors on this thread are arguing two things:

1) We should have had a chance to talk about such a large change to this game mechanic before it happened; and

2) We thinks its a BAD idea.

While we might disagree with #2, I find it hard to see how we can reasonably disagree with #1. After all, if it was a large change to something we DID care about, I bet each and every one of us would be arguing for #1 in OUR area of concern.

Merubin

08-12-2004, 02:31 PM

I really like that in the past few patches we've had a lot of little things to do!

Some assorted day after patch day comments :

Aerlinthe
Seems like a good update to the island for mid levels.
Not sure why you didn't include the recall in the higher quest version.. perhaps a chest that only contains it and you can choose which to unlock would be nice? Wouldn't want to have to do that quest and have everyone else lose out on the sword/robe/wand just so one person could get the spell.

Artsy
The copper cutlass and winged coat look great!
So does the new Coral Dungeon's art and updated wasps :)
I sort of like the Gromnie helmet too. That heavy armor... *shiver*
Gemstone Gromnie eyes are the wrong colours!

Quests
No alchemist, cook, or fletcher should ever complain about xp again.
Nice to have another reason to go to Marae Lassel!
Adjanite gem place is even less worth doing now.. a portal at the end of 80+ to 60+ etc or something could be nice, not like it's worth the xp when compared to other 80+ quests even with all the notes.
Mosswart Thanking Stones were very disappointing. (re: Pack dolls) Thanks for not giving them a higher drop rate, but ... for bringing them back in the first place. I liked Bleeargh's comments, some made me laugh.

Items
Nice to see a choice of getting the old canescent mattekar robes.
But their AL is lower than hoary & most other robes.... *shrug*
I think I saw a small problem with Brass Knuckles (not a typo)

Other
That direlands house would be slightly more useful with a tie nearby?

Surfal

08-12-2004, 02:49 PM

Thank you, Deiwos. Very well put.

MisatoX

08-12-2004, 03:19 PM

Why do you want them to bring it up with us first? They brought up the Caul changes and 99% of us were against it, and the changes still went in...

Illuminator

08-12-2004, 03:22 PM

I just tested it -- Mage's Understanding surpasses the Mana Conversion Mastery V on the Ring of Intellect, but it does NOT surpass the Moderate Mana Conversion on the Ring. The 11% spells surpass I-VII spells, but stack with cantrips.

KK my mistake. :)

BUT I still think they are worthless if they are going to nullify high level spells as I would estimate 75%+ of the playerbase has access to a buff bot, either in thier allegiance or by the generous free bots, who WILL cast level 7 buffs on them so no real need for them...

sylphia

08-12-2004, 03:24 PM

As I said Deiwos, adding pack dolls back into the game does not in any way hurt current collectors--unless they were collecting as an investment rather than for the enjoyment of it. And as Ibn said, oh well thats the risk you take in investments of any kind. The pack dolls werent taken from their collection to give to others. They can continue to collect them or not as they see fit. To pretend that adding pack dolls back to the game is somehow a game breaking change that should have been deliberated on the boards first is ludicrous. You apparently also missed the aprt where I made suggestions on what could be done to add some of the thrill of collecting back into the game for those who choose to make that their playstyle. I see both sides of this arguement, but I refuse to throw my hands in the air and cry woe over something that is nowhere near the big issue a small handful of players are trying to make it out to be. Perhaps I dont care for the revamp of wasp appearances. Does that mean that Turbine should have discussed it at length with us for months prior to instituting the change? Of course not. The visual art of the game is also a mechanic of the game under your loose definition. Should they stall all of their plans while they discuss every pixle with us?

The only mechanics they need to have such discussions with us are ones that affect how our characters actually perfomr, and how their skills interact with each other and the game environment. Yes, that means primarily combat. Why? Because that is where the vast majority of the population spends most of its time and effort: improving our combat viability, so we can level, get cool loot, earn resources to trade for packdolls, or whatever. They do NOT need to debate with us over silly things like whether or not to add a particular mask this Festivus, whether or not to bring in new types of Bandy Packs (god forbid they hurt someone's collection of Bandy Packs!), or whether or not to re-issue pack dolls--which I might add arent exactly falling into your lap, given that they still are generated at random. It just means that all of those pack dolls that got destroyed in the early days of the Casinos can now be replaced again. And new/future collectors can also get them without having to empty all of their mules just for one of them.

And again, I think they should start issueing NEW pack dolls. Rumors were rampant in the old days about a BZ and Ashy doll--which never turned up. I think they are long overdue, and this new wave of dolls is the perfect chance to start introducing the "prestige" dolls (named NPCs and Lore Figures, etc).

Sorry but all this anxst over re-issuing pack dolls, and cries of "its the worst decision Turbine has ever made" and "You have destroyed my faith in you!" are just plain silly. Trying to lay a guilt trip on them about communication, over PACK DOLLS is ludicrous. Now if they decided to REMOVE all pack dolls form the game, including existing ones, THEN you would have something to holler about. Removing mattie robes and PPGSA without warning was something to yell and scream about (at the time). Adding more dolls (which were only issued as a caveat to begin with) just isnt.

Ibn

08-12-2004, 03:48 PM

There is much more to it.
You have hurt a very special part of the economy and the collectiveness of the game in a very VERY bad way. Nobody will have the same view on items again, I feel.

You say this as if we've never done it before. Time and time again, the Live Team has brought older, impossible-to-find items back into the game in some way or another. Hoary Mattekar Robes. Energy Crystals. These are just two well-known examples.

The expectation that retired items will NEVER be brought back has been proven to be false. As has the expectation that any given item that's available today will always be available.

We have to take into account both the feelings of folks who will be upset because they no longer have an "exclusive" as well as the feelings of folks who will be thrilled because they never had an opportunity to acquire these items (other than through trade) in the past. In general, the ability to get items is better than NOT being able to get those items.

Dereth is a changing world. Past performance does not guarantee future results. This has always been true.

Surfal

08-12-2004, 03:58 PM

You say this as if we've never done it before. Time and time again, the Live Team has brought older, impossible-to-find items back into the game in some way or another. Hoary Mattekar Robes. Energy Crystals. These are just two well-known examples.

The expectation that retired items will NEVER be brought back has been proven to be false. As has the expectation that any given item that's available today will always be available.

We have to take into account both the feelings of folks who will be upset because they no longer have an "exclusive" as well as the feelings of folks who will be thrilled because they never had an opportunity to acquire these items (other than through trade) in the past. In general, the ability to get items is better than NOT being able to get those items.

Dereth is a changing world. Past performance does not guarantee future results. This has always been true.

And people were angry when you brought the hoary back in a completely unaltered form. Yet there was not nearly the outcry with the return of the energy crystal - it was a different color. New players were able to get them, but you didn't damage or destroy the accomplishments of the players with the old ones.

Your argument seems to boil down to "Because we CAN do it and because we did it before, that makes it RIGHT TO DO IT". Is that really what you meant to say? I'm finding it hard to believe that came from your fingers.

When you bring something retired back into the game, you should make a small change to it to distinguish between pre- and post-patch versions. What part of this is not clear, and what part of this is objectionable to you?

Myk

08-12-2004, 04:01 PM

For the people who say collecting things is a waste of time now, it's only a waste of time IF you consider it a waste of time.

I will still collect things because I ENJOY collecting them. The key word is ENJOY. I think the reason some people collected things was for turning a profit latter on and the brag factor...I have something you do not...ha ha ha

Well the brag factor and making a profit are now gone with pack dolls BUT I can now get the ENJOYMENT of collecting them.

Septa Scarabae

08-12-2004, 04:05 PM

Are Copper Gromnies performing as designed? They don't seem to be all that aggressive. Have the time they just run away and don't fight until properly prevoked.

http://img26.exs.cx/img26/3938/6279.jpg

Flynn

08-12-2004, 04:18 PM

Quick point about the Copper and Brass gromnies- they don't behave as a pack, if you vuln or attack one at range, it doesn't draw the whole pack like Ebon or lower gromnies do. Not that I'm complaining, but it doesn't seem like that's intended.

Ibn

08-12-2004, 04:20 PM

When you bring something retired back into the game, you should make a small change to it to distinguish between pre- and post-patch versions. What part of this is not clear, and what part of this is objectionable to you?

When possible, we will try to do this. However if resources force us to decide between bringing them back unmodified and not bringing them back at all, we're going to choose option 1. I understand why you're upset Surfal, but our priority is going to go towards getting items into the hands of all of our players, not preserving the exclusivity of the collections of a select few.

Tyndall

08-12-2004, 04:22 PM

You say this as if we've never done it before. Time and time again, the Live Team has brought older, impossible-to-find items back into the game in some way or another. Hoary Mattekar Robes. Energy Crystals. These are just two well-known examples.

The expectation that retired items will NEVER be brought back has been proven to be false. As has the expectation that any given item that's available today will always be available.

We have to take into account both the feelings of folks who will be upset because they no longer have an "exclusive" as well as the feelings of folks who will be thrilled because they never had an opportunity to acquire these items (other than through trade) in the past. In general, the ability to get items is better than NOT being able to get those items.

Dereth is a changing world. Past performance does not guarantee future results. This has always been true.

That is harsh. Don't overlook the fact that some people are left playing this game to do exactly what you are disdaining....collecting rare and hard to find items. A lot of the desireability of the AC1 franchise is tied up in loot. Finding it, keeping it, collecting it, trading it. The more you give back, and lessen the value of, items in the game the more you harm that segment of the playerbase that plays for that sole reason.

And ya know that I never did get my floating tome off of Asheron's Island! And I've always wanted one. When are those coming back????

Ibn

08-12-2004, 04:23 PM

A quick note on the topic of Aerlinthe -- we've found that several landscape generators were spawning more monsters than intended. This would likely be the cause of some of the complaints about difficulty due to monster spawns. We hope to have this resolved for September.

AFWriter

08-12-2004, 04:27 PM

I agree Ibn, I think you've forgotten about a certain part of your audience with this decision -- and broken a faith they have in you (not you personally, of course).

Some people play this game for other than levels, some are socializers and still others collectors.

In the past when items were brought back, they were at least modified in some form -- either the Icon (Hoary Matties), Wield Requirements (GSX) or in outright appearance (Energy Crystal).

Retired pack dolls were a part of the economy as well. So on two fronts this decision hurt many unintended people. Why couldn't the rewards have been a new pack doll or new versions of the old pack dolls?

I really wish more time was taken in considering the decisions made regarding game changes of this nature. It's ok to explain away some things "Because Dereth is a changing world," -- but there’s a point where credibility and trust has to measure into it.

When things such as retired packdolls (and the 126 level caps ... but that's a different thread) are no longer sacrosanct, what decisions truly are?

Later,

Don!

Ibn

08-12-2004, 04:29 PM

Don't overlook the fact that some people are left playing this game to do exactly what you are disdaining....collecting rare and hard to find items. A lot of the desireability of the AC1 franchise is tied up in loot. Finding it, keeping it, collecting it, trading it. The more you give back, and lessen the value of, items in the game the more you harm that segment of the playerbase that plays for that sole reason.

I'm not overlooking that, Tyndall. I am one of the people who plays this way. I've got a mule or two overburdened with the most random junk you can possibly imagine... a full set of pack dolls, bizarre and useless (to me) quest weapons, I think I have an original Dagger of Tikola in there somewhere. Never did manage to get my hands on a Gertarh's Dagger, sadly.

The difference I think is that I am happy with my collection whether or not anyone else has similar -- or even the exact same! -- items.

This is lesson that I learned from Magic: the Gathering. I had a really good collection of Antiquities, Arabian Nights, and Legends cards. I was really proud of the collection, and the fact that I had these cool cards that you couldn't find anymore.

Then WoTC released Chronicles, reprinting many of my exclusive cards. I was pretty upset... until I realized that what I was really proud of wasn't the cards themselves, but the experience I had collecting them. Each card in that set of mine had a story, whether I found it in some tiny games store outside Schenectady NY or traded two Shivan Dragons for it in a trade that any non-collector would think was utterly daft.

Since then I've learned to be proud of my actions and not my possessions. Possessions are fleeting, my history is written in stone.

So this is where I'm coming from on this issue.

saloben_we

08-12-2004, 04:32 PM

Turbine says they are giving us mansion improvements then makes one of the most sought after house item available as quest reward...

thnx for the house/mansion improvements you promised :(

Ibn

08-12-2004, 04:33 PM

In the past when items were brought back, they were at least modified in some form -- either the Icon (Hoary Matties), Wield Requirements (GSX) or in outright appearance (Energy Crystal).

Interesting thing about the Hoary Matty icon... it's actually not intentional that the icon didn't change on older robes. No steps were taken to preserve the old icon, and by all logic the old robes should have been updated with the new icon. It's an arcane quirk of our data update system that preserves the old icon.

Like I said above, it really is a resources issue. If we had an indefinite amount of resources, we could create new versions of old items whenever we felt like it -- but we don't.

When things such as retired packdolls (and the 126 level caps ... but that's a different thread) are no longer sacrosanct, what decisions truly are?

I would argue that nothing is sacrosanct. Many things are unlikely to change, but I can't think of anything that I would flat-out say will NEVER change.

Gdinero

08-12-2004, 04:35 PM

Ibn, just wanted to let you know that not everyone is angry that you did this. I have a friend IG that lost her villa and her pack doll collection along with it, and now she won't have as much trouble getting them back. I'd also like to complete a collection myself, but I had other things that took priority.

Seishin_HG

08-12-2004, 04:36 PM

Ibn

08-12-2004, 04:37 PM

Turbine says they are giving us mansion improvements then makes one of the most sought after house item available as quest reward...

thnx for the house/mansion improvements you promised :(

I don't see the corrolation between pack dolls and mansion improvements...?

saloben_we

08-12-2004, 04:44 PM

Septa Scarabae

08-12-2004, 04:53 PM

When possible, we will try to do this. However if resources force us to decide between bringing them back unmodified and not bringing them back at all, we're going to choose option 1. I understand why you're upset Surfal, but our priority is going to go towards getting items into the hands of all of our players, not preserving the exclusivity of the collections of a select few.

So why bother making anything unique? If you're going to choose option one over option two, is there really a reason for unique items? Atleast when you "brought back" pre-patch GSX and Energy Crystals, you did it in a way so that they could still remain unique. You even did the same with the Hoary robe, even if it was accidental. This is almost like saying you should bring back Nexus armor, because it isn't fair that only one person has it.

Also, the main reason pack dolls were introduced were as a thank you to players. Sure, they had their use back then, but one could argue that that thank you is now void. You could introduce a quest for Nexus Armor, PP GSX, Energy Crysals(blue), Old style heaumes and other quest items, and a PP Hoary Robe, but does that mean you should? I mean, everyone would have been happy if you introduced a Burun Pack Doll or a new style Mosswart Pack Doll.

I could live with a Caul nerf, but a pack doll nerf! :(

tirador

08-12-2004, 05:04 PM

Now, being reasonable--Turbine SHOULD add in more to collectables. Martine dolls, BZ dolls, Asheron dolls, Elysa dolls (all of our major players, including the named NPCs in towns and dungeons, such as Celdiseth and Celycynd). When a new NPC of notoriety emerges (such as Bleargh), a packdoll of him/her should arrive that month or the next. For those who truly DO have the collecting bug, this would give you something to chase after again. It would be like Christmas Eve at Toys R Us, with 10 women fighting over the last Power Ranger, but if thats what makes you happy.... :eek:

Yes!!!! absolutely. This would have made everyone ecstatic. It would have been nice to have a Karl Rove or some day an Ibn pack animal.

Ibn, you never did promise us that you'd never re-introduce the pack idol, THE item which has been in demand since before I started paying you for a game several years ago. The absolutely unapologetic attitude and the disloyalty to older players in favor of those who want something they have should have told us all a while back that this was coming. It was nice of you, in a way, to tell us this today, because now we know that our loyalty to you and this game are not reciprocated, and that you are a bottom-line kind of guy. We know that there will be no limit to the perceived perfidies you'll ram down the throat of your paying playerbase in hopes of attracting some new customers when you finally do release an expansion pack. I most deeply regret that you don't value the collector or the trader (you said so here:
We have to take into account both the feelings of folks who will be upset because they no longer have an "exclusive" as well as the feelings of folks who will be thrilled because they never had an opportunity to acquire these items (other than through trade) in the past. In general, the ability to get items is better than NOT being able to get those items.

Dereth is a changing world. Past performance does not guarantee future results. This has always been true. Did you mean something different?) [emphasis added]

Will "pack idols now widely available" play a central part in your advertising of the expansion pack?

I guess you need to change to ensure a successful business. But, as a bottom line kind of guy, I hope you'll appreciate this: " Asheron`s Call Dark Majesty Unsubscribe
Cancellation successful. " Sorry the nifty graphics don't come through, and I won't spam up your board with doing this for each of the 5 accounts I am cancelling today, nor the others I'll cancel next month. "Inque luto fixium possie transcendere nummum nec gluttu sorbere salivam mercurialem". Since you don't value the trader I no longer see any point in keeping these mules around

I suggest that a deeper respect for the past would have built a better platform for your expansion.

Perhaps the greatest irony in this brouhaha (hahahaha) is that this was the first patch day in which I felt myslf a full participant, with a complaint AND praise.

Just out of curiousity, what -is- your target demogaphic for the expansion pack?

ayreon

08-12-2004, 05:06 PM

Ok then look at this way. In my mansion my entire mansion, except for the basement, is covered in pack dolls. Now that they will pretty much worthless I have nothing to decorate with. How many rare items are there in the game anymore?

just pointing out thats thi sand many other peeps upset about pack doll introdution. it may make you upset that your pack dolls not so uber now. but as for as they go . they will better suit purpose of gambling them for golden gromnies i would think. (if you can) as there has be long issue with getting enough gromniees for mansion reqs. if theres another way to get a pack doll other than spending kings ransom. many peeps will rejoice

tirador

08-12-2004, 05:21 PM

Tyndall, if you're on leafcull I 'll give you the book you want.

Ibn, I am pretty sure i have that dagger on leafcull if you want it.

That's it for trades here. probably out of place.

Glaucon

08-12-2004, 05:37 PM

saloben_we

08-12-2004, 05:40 PM

you couldn't make a original ferrari again. Thats why they call it rare!

Bleinmeis

08-12-2004, 05:50 PM

This is lesson that I learned from Magic: the Gathering. I had a really good collection of Antiquities, Arabian Nights, and Legends cards. I was really proud of the collection, and the fact that I had these cool cards that you couldn't find anymore.

Then WoTC released Chronicles, reprinting many of my exclusive cards. I was pretty upset... until I realized that what I was really proud of wasn't the cards themselves, but the experience I had collecting them. Each card in that set of mine had a story, whether I found it in some tiny games store outside Schenectady NY or traded two Shivan Dragons for it in a trade that any non-collector would think was utterly daft.

This magic analogy isn't even close to the same situation. The original black bordered versions are still worth tons (and still going up), while the chronicles set is worth much, much less.

I find this development of the pack dolls to be extremely disappointing, to say the least. The dolls were one of the last things that was fun to collect. It actually meant something to have a full set. It's just another step in making this game incredibly easy... easy to: lvl, get loot, collect, and play in general. Just another accomplishment that will no longer mean anything in AC. :(

KsBabe

08-12-2004, 06:26 PM

I have to say, this is the best patch that I have seen in the last few months, and as for the pack dolls, I want to say thank you, I have been trying to collect a full set since I started playing four years ago and so far I only have the idol, virindi, mosswart, and tusker. With them being brought back, I may now can actually get the othoi, grivver, cow and the ursuin (spelling suxs on the names, sorry).
I would like to say though for the thanking stone we should get something better than an iron pea or lucky gold letter, a gold or silver pea at least, I mean if this is Turbine's way of thanking us for our loyalty, I think we should worth more than an iron pea,,lol
Once again thumbs up on the patch!

Wolfe

08-12-2004, 06:44 PM

I have to say this patch is the best in a long time in my opinion.

Just looking at the patch info page on maggie the jackcat's site it's vast, surely at least one or two things in there for everyone.

I was a bit disappointed to see from the acpl notes that the tinkering skills for aluvian and sho is quite a long way down the list, that's something that I think is rather critical to some people and I'd like to see this fixed sooner rather than later, even if it's at the expense of some content.

But all in all, a nice patch so far, we even got some quest armor that matches and looks good, what's up with that? :p

saloben_we

08-12-2004, 06:50 PM

you wanted the pack dolls why? were they cute, funny looking, eye catching? No, they were rare and thats why you wanted them.

Nightstarr SC

08-12-2004, 06:52 PM

I like the white wasps. Did the change go for all wasps or just the white ones? Things look good.

AFWriter

08-12-2004, 07:19 PM

Ibn!

I'll trade you some black-bordered Killer Bees for a set of Nexus Koujia on SC!

Please?

I guess my question is more of what you (once again not you the person, but Turbine as a whole) see as sacred in terms of re-release.

Personally, I'd love to have a set of Nexus Armor. It's by no means overpowered by today's armor standards. I'm only being half tongue-in-cheek. If we're going to get formerly-limited pack dolls reintroduced into the system, why not Nexus Armor? I'd love to have that more than any pack doll.

And if we can't have Nexus Armor, what is the line of thinking in that decision, and how does it vary from the rationale used to put packdolls back in the August event?

Nexus Koujia. You can do it. You have the technology.

Later,

Don!

ayreon

08-12-2004, 07:37 PM

toshiro

08-12-2004, 08:31 PM

Unfortunatly i cant find a copy of the Dev notes for the feb 2001 event when the pack dolls were given as a sorry by turbine for the 36 hr rollback the previous month on all servers for a serious bug.

If my somewhat failible memory serves me correctly these were given as a never to be repeated one off present to the players then, as a sorry gift and one that we could remember the 'event' by.

I have introduced players to the game and shown them these explaining that the longer you play the more 'interesting' items you get and that Turbine like to reward us with one-offs when things go wrong. Well thats one less string in my marketing ploy to get my friends to play!

your analogy with the MTG cards is wrong as a one time collector with 18000 cards collecting dust i know that every edition is subtly different and that you can tell them all apart!

Nothing you can do about it now but in future think carefully, there has been a very large backlash here and on other boards about this. Todays players will get 'unique' items that will become retired let us older players keep our items let the newer players have their own ones! every generation should have something of there own.

Otherwise a splendid patch and have been since Turbine reowned the game from MS.

Jet-eye-nite

08-12-2004, 08:53 PM

Seems off the way you reward xp for tinkers , in that a low lvl is offered very little for doing the same exact thing that a high lvl does and in turn reaps many fold the reward . I could agree if this was 3-4 years ago when lvls were harder to obtain .But I have seen in just the last month a char go from 0-126 in 6 days play time,on VT .At the rate of exchange the rich only get richer and the poor ( as Charlie Brown put it " get a rock" ) :( . I also noticed atleast in my mind a raise in salvage ws ( if this isn't the case , don't tell me) ;)

Chip Ali

08-12-2004, 09:25 PM

http://classic.zone.msn.com/asheronscall/news/pagesJan.asp

That being said, make sure to leave an inventory slot free on your character when the February prop comes around -- some database gnomes will deposit a little token of apology. It won't be ph4t l3wt, but hopefully people will enjoy it. (It's not something we plan on doing every time something goes wrong, but in this case, it just might be worth it.)

http://acvault.ign.com/archive/news-archive-2-2001.shtml

"For a moment, you feel as if a wee mousey has scampered over your leg…"
Osiric shot up, awake, aware. The Gharu'ndim had been asleep, camping out in the forests near Lake Lithane, when he'd felt… something. The hand of a living Shadow reaching for his throat? A Monouga's club raised against his prone form?

No. Osiric could see no one else about. He still camped alone.

Not until several hours later, when the Gharu'ndim looked through his belongings for a breakfast of grapes and cheese, did he find the "pack toy."

Osiric was a collector. Not one of those common collectors in town, buying only Phyntos Wasp wing or Banderling scalp offered them; no, Osiric was more ambitious in his pursuits. Of every variety of treasure Dereth had to offer, Osiric had an example in his pack. A heart from every Golem. A spine from every Armoredillo. Osiric owned every mask that had been created for the autumn festival, and he still carried a jack-o'-lantern in his pack.

And now this. Osiric carefully pulled away the gold foil, revealing the tiny Pack Cow inside. A small figurine, apparently placed there by unseen powers--powers who knew well the obsession of Osiric's heart. And now they had chosen to reward him with this singularly unique item!

His mission, to collect all of Dereth's treasures, Osiric now felt… complete. After all, there surely couldn't be more varieties of such pack toys to be had. Could there?

http://ac.turbinegames.com/index.php?page_id=109#items7

The Pack Dolls were introduced in February of 2001. The game had recently undergone a major rollback due to an exploit, and the Dev Team felt that a small gift to the players was appropriate. When your character first logged on after the February event, you got a message, "For a moment, you feel as if a wee little mousey has scampered up your leg..." and you found a random Pack Doll in your main pack.

The original pack dolls were the Pack Cow, the Pack Drudge, Pack Golem, Pack Grievver, Pack Idol, Pack Lugian, Pack Mosswart, Velveteen Olthoi, Pack Scarecrow, Plush Tusker, Pack Ursuin, and Pack Virindi.

Later, the Golden Gromnie was introduced as a gambling reward. The Drudge, Golem, and Scarecrow can also currently be won through gambling. The only way to currently obtain any of the other Pack Dolls is to trade for them.

sylphia

08-12-2004, 10:02 PM

Actually the M:TG analogy is perfect.

When Chronicles released (and later expansions did the same thing), ALL of the older versions lost a significant portion of their value, as Magic cards' values are essentially determined by a small handful of variables:

(1)Usefulness
(2)Rarity/Availability
(3)Reprinted or not (ties in with availability)
(4)Physical condition of the card

There are a few other minor variables, but this is the gist of it. When any M:TG XP reintroduces an old card, the value of that old card immediately takes a nose dive, because its availability just went back up. However, It eventually levels off and begins climbing again, because for collectors, getting THAT EDITION of the card is still difficult. And as every collector in M:TG knows, they may decide to reprint any card at any tie, that they dont feel has imbalanced the game. That means the folks who collect M:TG as an INVESTMENT know they are taking that risk when they trade for specific cards. Meanwhile, all the newer players who bought into the game who just wanted the card to PLAY with could get it once again without paying $600 for a card that they would be afraid to shuffle into their deck for fear of damaging it.

Someone complained that re-issueing the pack dolls has made the old ones worthless. Here is a clue: They were ALREADY worthless; a small gropu of players has managed to convice the rest of the playerbase that its worth paying 100 sings or some other outrageous sum for a pack doll that does nothing but wiggle its but or shake its fist at you. The ONLY value in pack dolls is individual desire to have them. Why should a select few individuals have the exclusive "right" to an entire set of them? Why sholdnt other players who have joined since then, or who will join in the future, have the same right to collect them? There is no reason why a pack doll should be fetching those outrageous sums. If you like collecting them, then you should be happy they will drop in prices (notice i said PRICES not VALUE). If you already spent a zillion sings on them, that was your choice; the only VALUE in them was what you personally invested in them. If it was worth a zillion sings to complete your set, well you accomplished that goal. I was one of the folks who collected them as well when they first came out. But I refused to pay silly prices for them, so I sold off what I had to other more zealous players, or gave them away. And even though their PRICES have increased since then, I have not once regretted dropping them like a bad habit, despite the profit I could have made from selling them more recently.

If you are collecting dolls as an investment, its rather like playing the stock maret. The bottom can fall out at any time, and thats the risk you take. If you are collecting them to HAVE them because you think they are neat, then you shouldnt be complaining that you paid whatever price you paid for them. No one forced you to do so; obviously you wanted it bad enough to pay that price in the first place. What Turbine has done is effectively removed the ability for anyone to use this particular useless item to bend another player over in a trade anymore. If you want to collect, by all means collect. But dont come crying, acting as if the sky is falling when they re-release somethign you WANTED to collect, as if they have somehow sinned against you personally.

Were it me, instead of crying foul over the release of a bunch of outdated dolls, I would be asking them for NEW dolls to collect. You can still be the "first on your block" to own them all. And if Turbine released a few new pack dolls each month, that would keep your personal obsession in the game fed rather nicely.

MaddyFF

08-12-2004, 10:44 PM

Seeing how people trade for pack dolls on the boards I can understand why people would be upset. It seems to fall into two catagories

1. People used them as trade fodder
2. People liked them being unique

To the first group I say "Oh well", a dynamic economic system is more desireable for me then a static one. First rule of investing, never place all your eggs in one basket.

The second group I can see where they are coming from. YOu trade for the dolls and then hook them at your house and open it for others too see. People would go "Wow, you got the complete collection!", kind of like someone saying "Wow, you got X-Men #1!!" It would have been nice if there was a way to tell the difference (or just releasing new ones) so the original ones were still unique though, but not a game ending thing.

DadgaSilverhand

08-12-2004, 10:50 PM

reintroduction of retired M:TG cards make sense, we can tell which one is the originals, so the value may slip, but original is more attractive beside the black borders compared to white borders made for revised editions.
however, collectors can still get newer versions of reproductions of the classics. i did collect them no matter what it cost me or how cheap to get, it is my choice, so it should be anyone choices to collect or sell for profits.

i couldnt even afford to get last 2 remaining pack dolls, so it give me a new hope to complete them as a set, however it is still give random prizes upon the timers.
it is okay with me because it got timer per rewards or pick-ups to prevent overflooding the tradebots.

other post on the top, asking about reviving Nexus Core, that person isnt only one that want Nexus Armor too. also in my other post in AC:ToD regarding Viamontians' Heritages, what about them? Shadow Armors and Virindi Masks.

i wrote a short story about Nexus Dungeon where the battle between Shadows and Undeads, it should give Turbine Dev Team some idea about a new version of Nexus Crystals, the lord of the shards.
well, ... it been buried so deep in those pages of the posts.

ok, here my Feedback on this month,

Gromnies...Best concept and good updates, an A+ plus
Mosswart quest...Pretty Good, an A for a fun quest.

Arefalle Quest, hm, good start with first dungeon to get an item required for quest, and to have 2 choices of difficulties (scrolls or uber items). several grades on this one.

New dungeon, Coral, An A+ for textures and artworks
Harbor, F- for too thick of spawns, designed for 40-60?, most folks got issues with frame-rates, it freeze comps, lag deaths, what is in your mind guys? not everyone plays on broadbands or DSL, some still play on dail-ups, even some have problems when they play on broadbands and crashed (possible a low end computers).
New Hellfire infusions, A+ for extra drops, no ninja lootings. much better same goes for other Craters.
Lady Arefalle Keep, what can i say, i hadn't been able to get in due to Undead Town's lag effect. (no grade decided)
Undead Town, F- for worst lag and low framerates ever saw since 30+ lvl Cistern Quest at Qalabar, barely can move and get lucky to be able to heal or otherwise i would had corpse decayed in that place.

overall,
Gromnies, Mosswart, Infusion drops, and Coral Dungeon is good (A+)

Undead Town/ Heavy spawns in Harbor has to scale back to be playable for other folks and managable to recover thier health or corpses. (F-)

Arefalle Keep, like that daul version quest, it would have done same for Frore City, it is bit too hard. let make more Daul quests. (5 stars for new concept)

Chunglee

08-12-2004, 11:02 PM

Not sure if this has been posted yet

When I'd ing Potent sanctifier of the Clutch spell ,it says "Enhances the "Focus" of the Fellowship by 40 Points"

It should say "Magic Defence"

sorry if this has been posted , i don't have time to read all of these right now :)

Xen

08-13-2004, 12:45 AM

It seems that collectors can be separated into 2 categories, those who take joy in the items they have, and those who take joy in the items others do not have.

Someone earlier in this thread said Dark Sorcerer's Phylacstery(sp?) was no longer "cool" since that mob spawned relatively frequently. For me it still is. I wanted that orb, but I didn't want one traded for or just handed to me. So I remember vividly how thrilled i was to find dark sorcerer for the first time .. and how disappointed when there was no orb on his body! I guess it truly different strokes for different folks.

This quest for dolls seems to be perfect, you are not guranteed to get one, you have to hope that you might get it, I have no idea what are the chances of actually getting a doll as opposed to iron pea but it sounds like it would take quite a few visits to Mosswart. So there will be sense of accomplished when you finally do get it.

As to those who would leave because they are no longer as "unique and special" as they figured themselves to be .. well good riddance. It is people like you who would have paintings, sculptures etc etc locked up in private "collections" instead of available in public museums for everyone to enjoy.

And La Gioconda would be just as special if Da Vinci did painted 1000 copies of it. Uniqueness is not what makes it special.

Septa Scarabae

08-13-2004, 01:18 AM

Bleinmeis

08-13-2004, 02:02 AM

krack

08-13-2004, 02:22 AM

Doing the bleeargh quests I was very excited and even called this patch "Spectacular!" After I obtained all the scroll I continued to search and found the statue. I was *VERY* disappointed when I could not hook it on my villa. As a further disappointment, once I gave it as a gift to our monarchy, it only teahces you item spells 1-6, *IF* you've completed all the bleeargh quests. Seriously, tell me one single character that finishes all those quests and doesn't ALREADY have the item spells!!!

I can understand how you're trying to improve mansions and all...but this is practically WORTHLESS! Now maybe, if you could flag with your main and it was an account flag...that'd be something. Otherwise, it's nothing. Just another lame house item that will seldom, if ever, get used.

FmrSentFlatfoot

08-13-2004, 05:47 AM

Everyone who had these pack dolls for so long got to enjoy the fact that they had them while other people didn't. They are STILL rare. If you weren't planning on ever trading them away, why would it matter how much they were worth? You got what you wanted? If you owned a ferrari that cost 175k, and because suddenly some other people were able to win some in a game of chance here and there, which might slightly drop the value, would it mean any less to you? Probably not, unless your only sense of who you are is by the items that you own.

I have some items that are pretty rare, but I make the choice to keep them rather then trade them. The AC economy is constantly fluctuating, if I want to trade my items for a lot, I will do it while they are worth a lot. I don't control the economy.

Most logical viewpoint I have seen on the issue! :)

saloben we: you couldn't make a original ferrari again. Thats why they call it rare!

Not true. Ferrari (still in business) could make whatever they want, they have all the original blueprints and schematics. Oh and any model of Ferrari they have made, was never a one-off, unless it was a prototype that didn't make it to production. Sure, they were all hand-made and each one has the uniqueness of being hand-made, but they made a certain number of each model, which according to the design, were all the same. So don't say they couldn't make another one or two or ten or twenty if there was a specific purpose for them to do so. :p

I have a few Pack Dolls that I either bought or traded for, including ones I got from friends on other servers etc. I don't have them all, but I think it's great there's now a chance to maybe get the others. Do I NEED them to make my day? No, not in the slightest. Often times when I give stuff away to people (mostly imbued weapons or cash), people say I owe ya big time... I tell them you owe me nothing... as far as I see this game, the value of everything here has the same worth as Monopoly Money, because that's all it's worth!

What if a major catastrophe occured and Turbine lost all copies of character data backups. What value would all those items be worth then? See the point? It would be GONE forever, along with everything you've worked for, and the best Turbine could do is say "sorry". Remember now, I'm talking a MAJOR Catastrophe that would make saving the data impossible for anyone... act of God or whatever you wish to label it as. I bet any money MOST of you would start over from zero, once the servers were operational again; VT is proof of that. Thing is, all your collectibles... GONE. So tell me, what value do they honestly have? One day, AC will vanish into the tides of history, along with all those collectibles.... so again, what value did all those pixelated non-items have?

Absolutely nothing. Totaly worthless then, as they truly are now.

Enjoy them while you have them. If others who never had a chance to have any can now get a few? Great! I'm happy for them! If I had access to a Dev's Client and flagged on the servers to use that client, and knew HOW to use it, and had the final-say authority to use it, I would go around and just put a static spawn in various places with all the rare, sought-after items, and then make a world announcement for people who never had what they've always wanted, to come pick up 1 or 2 or a set etc.

Do I value trades in-game? Not really... if I want something, I go hunt for it myself. The pack dolls I have that I bought, I paid for from the cash I earned while hunting. If I'm too low level to get something I want, I wait until I'm big enough to get my own (incentive).

I'll admit that I've had my fair share of beefs about what Turbine has done that's made me upset, but pack dolls or any other collectible? I say let everyone have a set too. Who does it hurt? The elitists who think they should have an exclusive right to flaunt their possessions in others faces? Bah! You don't deserve to have them then.

saloben we:
Ok then look at this way. In my mansion my entire mansion, except for the basement, is covered in pack dolls. Now that they will pretty much worthless I have nothing to decorate with. How many rare items are there in the game anymore?

Why wouldn't you? They were already worthless. Who decided they were worth something? GREED did, that's who... just like any other item that some have that others want and maybe can't get. How many rare items in game now? None that I know of... all items are as worthless as any others. The only thing that has any worth is the $12.99/month that I pay for each account I "use" or "rent" (not own...because Turbine still OWNS all the accounts). Also, my monthly cost for my Cable ISP that allows me to play AC. That's the only two things that have worth.... and some months seem worth less or more than others... depending if it's a good or bad patch, which is also open to personal opinionated interpretation. ;)

Arakae:
If you're going to choose option one over option two, is there really a reason for unique items?

Nope, there isn't. So why do people get all hot and bothered over it? *shrug* Search me! lol

Ibn:
Since then I've learned to be proud of my actions and not my possessions. Possessions are fleeting, my history is written in stone.

That pretty much says it right there. Just like life is fleeting, so too AC is fleeting. It's here now, gone tomorrow... Vrooooooooom! About as fast as that, only when you're young, you can't see it whizzing past you at the speed of light... but it's right there in front of your eyes. lol

In terms of your history being written in stone? Only if you go down in history as a famous, influential person who contributed something special that is worthy of public remembrance. Otherwise, your history just vanishes within a few short years, until you're not remembered at all. Your children will remember, and maybe your grandchildren (depending on their age when you died)... after that point though, you're just a passing thought.. and after that generation, you're pretty much totally forgotten. So no, your history is not written in stone unless you were someone "special". heh

Anyway people... can we end this pack doll deal now? lol... I don't usually agree with much of what Sylphia says, but this time I have to admit she has a valid point; minus the condescension.

KsBabe is right on the money also.

They're back in game now... let those who never had, HAVE! Nothing wrong with sharing the wealth, right?

Viv Baby

08-13-2004, 09:09 AM

I'm disappointed with new Lifestone Sending spell. It's pretty useless for melees and, obviously, you can't use it in your basement after having dumped salvage and loot since you are alone down there and have no other character to target. I have to assume this is just another mage love spell. PKL/PKers will love it because it's a quick out from a nasty situation.

Dark Malignus

08-13-2004, 10:08 AM

I liked the book quest. It was nice to have a good long solo dungeon to slog through, with some good rewards in the process (the books themselves and the treasure off all the juggernauts) The other rewards are more curiosities than anything else, nothing I can use in there.

The Gromnie rewards look pretty good. In particular I was pleased to see the cutlass. I'd wanted a heavy stabbing sword for quite a while, and there it is. Only problem is, it only has +7% to hit, which means I won't be able to hit anything worthwhile with it. The stuff I could hit reliably with it would just get mowed down whatever weapon I used. The things I would want to hit with my new cutlass, such as those same gromnies and olthoi mutilators etc are going to evade that at a rate I suspect I will find unacceptable.

You guys know what the defenses of the monsters are, so you know what people are going to need to be able to hit them. I know you have realized that the mods for many quest weapons were unrealistically low since you recently changed them. Why continue to make the same 'mistakes'? All these weapons should have at least +8%, or if you really want them used +10%. I'm really a casual player, with my main guy inching toward 100th level just now. I'm sure that many (most?) players have higher skills so the mods are less an issue. But, I also know that what monsters I can fight with 'good' weapons, and am unlikely to go fight lower level ones just so I can use a 'bad' weapon, neat or not. Like the mages losing skill points by using the new percentage buff jewelry, I'll lose 35 or so points in sword using that thing. Its pretty neat too, I'd like to be using it.

And thats really my main gripe about the continuing story/patch cycle. I understand that loot should always be better overall than quest rewards. But month after month of getting items that 'sound' cool but end up being used once then put on a mule gets old.

Merubin

08-13-2004, 10:11 AM

Wow, someone actually had something bad to say about that spell :)

Can't say I was expecting to see that. Most people I know just looked at it as a silly new addition, it'd be a useful quest spell if it wasn't an "other" though.

edit: This was in reference to the post about Lifestone Sending at the bottom of the 7th page, forgot to hit quote I guess

Ibn

08-13-2004, 11:59 AM

MisatoX

08-13-2004, 02:19 PM

I handed in 4 thanking stones and got 2 iron peas, a lucky (!) gold letter and a swamp stone.

so I don't count on getting a full set of pack dolls anytime soon, seems to be rare. But it keeps me trying :) Thanks for bringing them back for those of us that aren't rich and can't afford to shell out tons of sings to trade for dolls.

Ryori

08-13-2004, 03:51 PM

Unless I missed it, I haven't seen that dolls are falling from the sky. I finished the quest early this morning and personally was 0-6. Guildmates I was with were also 0-6. I think one of our guild got a Gold Gromnie and one Lugian. So seems like the odds are low. As I have multiple toons high enough to solo the quest, I figure I'll get a set eventually (have 2 old ones already).

Now onto feedback. I like the mossie quest. A some fun items. And those iron peas were handy (did I mention I was 0-6 on the thanking stones... hehe)

Not a fan of the gromnie tooth change. I think it was over the top in terms of XP. I am all for XP from quests that matches hunting but whew... I'm seeing a lot of XP. Also I am not sure the gromnies are spread out enough. Finding three types in a small area might make competition tough. I've had some yanked out from under me, and think I yanked a few out from someone else as we were not on each other's radar, but the gromnie was. And the QQ was running and not finished so one spot was covered in more bugs instead of gromnies. I don't mind killing a lot to get the teeth, but at least they should spawn -- again with the assumption there will be high demand thus high traffic competing for them. I was able to move to a different spot but still ran into 3 other folks - and this was 3am EST.

Some of the new textures are really nice. Good work there.

FmrSentFlatfoot

08-13-2004, 04:26 PM

I was able to move to a different spot but still ran into 3 other folks - and this was 3am EST.

Which is between 8am and 10am in various parts of Europe. ;)

Shao Majii

08-13-2004, 10:40 PM

Ok pack doll nuts, can we have our thread back now? There's enough spewage there for a whole 3 threads.

Anywho... I'm disappointed in a few end result items. The 11% stuff? erm ok. it won't help lowbies much if at all since 4s are better in their case, and it won't help all but the few maxed characters who will likely say something like "2 points? is that a joke?" and dig up other more important stuff like major magic D, regens, and imbued jewelry that suits thier specific needs more than 2 points of magic...

Secondly, Robes. I love you for the attempt, but try again. 200 AL is not sufficient for VoD or Caul- the places which one must hunt to get these robes. The risk vs. reward is WAY off here unless you simply intend to make robes nearly worthless collector's items. I have covered this elsewhere on several threads in the past. Try thinking outside the box of armor levels if need be. Protection doesn't always have to be in the form of AL. There is room for a whole playstyle/hunting style here. Do something with it!

Quests: happy. You keep out nasty jumping and you keep me happy.

Paint: omg! it's insanely tacky! ick! I made the mistake of putting on my walking boots with it! I'm scarred! My Vassal left my appartment not wishing to be spotted there! I have a feeling he won't even pick up the thing.

11% run? and jump? errr... ok... sure. Maybe someone can jump the arwic walls now?

The Silk Wrap: DOH! 200 lore :mad: Just when I thought you guys were gonna let me be really happy without lore trained. Oh well. Only one item.

The new dungeon on Aerlinthe looks cool outside, I didn't get a chance to take a look inside yet. Sure are a lot of orange dots out there though...

I think this patch has made a lot of people happy since it seems to cover all various level ranges, spurs a little for the power gamers, collectors (well, some of them), and explorers and even lends a bit to crafters. Overall, nicely done. Just wish robes turned out better. (yes, I'm gonna harp on it)

Merubin

08-14-2004, 12:31 AM

The 11% stuff? erm ok. it won't help lowbies much if at all since 4s are better in their case, and it won't help all but the few maxed characters who will likely say something like "2 points? is that a joke?" and dig up other more important stuff like major magic D, regens, and imbued jewelry that suits thier specific needs more than 2 points of magic...I'm using the war bracelet atm, it's a +2 (If I was a maxed char I think it would be +6?). That's enough of a boost to have it replace my Doll's Eye. The rings are a 60+ quest, and the bracelets are a 80+ quest.. lowbies probably won't be able to get them or even use them with the base reqs.

It's just an interesting quest item which would probably be more useful to a few people than another armor 4 bracelet would be for example (Though I can't picture many people choosing to use the Mana C necklace or the rings), same with some of the others. IMO the best ones as far as being useful besides that they "look cool" are the Silk Wrap and the AL 200 robe I guess if people still use robes.

One nice bonus to the jewelery is that it now easily lets mages go creatureless with the proper equipment (especially those without lore or rank who can't imbue wands for an extra mastery) - If I didn't have majors I'd be 8 credits richer running around in auroric exarch.

FmrSentFlatfoot

08-14-2004, 12:47 AM

Overall, nicely done. Just wish robes turned out better.

I agree. Once it was known Robes would see some love, I was all excited that "maybe" they'd make them worthwhile to use for actual combat of even the big stuff.... but no, they're good for low level dires hunting and that's about it.

I guess I'll have to keep my same old inscription for Robes:

"Nothing like a paper towel for protection!" :eek:

Eldritch

08-14-2004, 04:25 AM

Hi there, new to these boards. But myself and friends just completed the King Toad Idol Quest and there seems to be an issue with the Mosswart Statue, or two or three....

First: When hooking the statue I got the message that I now have the maximum number of portals in our mansion. The statue is obviously not a portal device, but rather a Magical casting device of a sort. Is this an intentional thing or a bug?

Second: Is the Mosswart statue intended ONLY for Mansions? Or is it as other magic casting items, supposed to be hookable to Villas/Cottages?

These seem to be the two main issues that I know of. Any light shed on this would be greatly appreciated, by both myself and The entire clan as a whole. Ty for your time.

Eldritch Ravenshore

Damien_Sarin

08-14-2004, 05:01 AM

"our priority is going to go towards getting items into the hands of all of our players, not preserving the exclusivity of the collections of a select few."

Alienating a whole section of your playerbase who only play for the collecting aspect... as small as that may be... to cater to the larger whole who really couldn't care less isnt a good decision IMO. You just turned 2 of the major staples of the collectors market into mundane items that the majority you did it for are going to forget about in a month anyway. On the other hand, the bittnerness you create in the collectors niche will probably last 10x that. IMO that isn't a good trade-off.

What alot of the posters don't seem to understand about why people like me are upset about this, is the possibility of it becoming a trend.

IBN, by your statement above, it wouldn't be unreasonable for me to ask you when Shadow Atlan stones are being readded... why should only 2 people have access to that item. Alot of your players want them too...

Or what about cheese grater heumes, pp olthoi helms... etc etc...

Maybe you have to be a collector to understand... but collecting is not just about "aquiring" and the act of 'aquiring'... a large part of the pride in collecting also comes from aquiring things that aren't available to everyone.

That's the lure.

You mentioned something about if the choice was between adding the item back in with no visible difference or not adding it back at all you'll go with the first option. In the future, I would ask you to rethink that logic, and just push it further down the to-do list until you do have the time or resources to add it with visible differences.

Look at it from a different persepctive:

Add it in now with no visible difference (cater to a large majority who will not care about the items in a month, but get it in game now to those people and alienate your whole collectors market players as a result)

or

Dont add it in at all (and wait until you have the resources to do it in a way that doesn't alienate your collectors market, and the large majority still get to have those same items, which they will still forget about in a month after you introduce them)

Option one.... win/lose
Option two.... win/win

Keep in mind, the majority only want the items back for aesthetics... collectors want the 'retired' items for the antique. That's why things like balls of fire, are HUGE in collectors market... while normal players could'nt care less. It has no artwork when weilded. It's just a useless icon to most players. But to a collector it's gold because it's unavailable to the masses. If you lose it, it's gone forever.

I don't recall seeing hoardes of people screaming for these items to be braught back IMMEDIATLY. What was the rush? The people who are happy with them being reinstroduced wouldve been just as happy 5 months from now, getting the same item, with a slightly different text description. And that would've preserved the antique of the original items. No impact to collectors.

Rush and create problems or take your time and please everybody. Those are the options I think need to be considered.

Mildly amused

08-14-2004, 07:53 AM

MaddyFF

08-14-2004, 10:22 AM

On the new quests:

The Bleeargh quests: I've done the first VI to get flagged for the statue part. With my level 100 mage this was easy, but for a group these will mainly be aimed at hunting wise it will be a good challenge. Teh rewards given if any indication of what the mosswarts have shows why they were getting their green butts kicked. I might have uped the spell levels on a couple of them.

The Ydnew quest: Did this with my mage again, and a high level axer in the allegiance. Got a little rough near the end so was a good challenge for the two of us working together (I just imperiled pretty much everything and she hacked away). I like the lore, XP was nice, the other rewards are kind of a *shrug* item for me. My mage with level VII buffs, moderate focus, minor willpower, and moderate War loses a point of war magic when equipping the bracelet. It seems too geared towards the high end for me (i.e. level 126 crowd). If the percentage was 12% instead 11%, and didn't include buffs then it would have opened the quest up to more people but still kept it restricted to the higher end (level 100+).

I just need to do the updated Aerlinthe now :)

sylphia

08-14-2004, 11:02 AM

Alienating a whole section of your playerbase who only play for the collecting aspect... as small as that may be... to cater to the larger whole who really couldn't care less isnt a good decision IMO. You just turned 2 of the major staples of the collectors market into mundane items that the majority you did it for are going to forget about in a month anyway. On the other hand, the bittnerness you create in the collectors niche will probably last 10x that. IMO that isn't a good trade-off.

It seems to me that adding pack dolls back into the game is catering to the collectors. Seeing as how ONLY collectors will want them. I am sure all of the melees and archers out there who PK are thrilled about how adding packdolls back into the game has completely balanced PK vs mages for them. They are so glad that Turbine "catered to their whims" by adding packdolls back in. I am sure that all of the lvl 126+ players who are constantly looking for higher level content to explore and hunt, are thrilled that packdolls have opened up completely new vistas for them. And lets not forget how packdolls have completely revolutionized the tinekring system; havng a full set of packdolls gives you a +20% to all imbue attempts, right?

What all of you "collectors" who are complaining here seem to forget is that you are not the only ones who play to collect. There are hundreds of other players out there who ALSO collect, but who cannot get certain items because they no longer generate in the game. Why should you be any more entitled to them than they are? Because you were here first? Because you have more money than them? Since the point of collectingis to COLLECT, why should it matter to you if someone else is able to obtain them as well? A full set is a full set. Its not like they are going to be phenomenally easy to get, even now. They are just POSSIBLE to get again; thats all. It also means that the few ppl who have hoarded these items with the specific intent of bending other players over in a trade have lost that unreasonable power.

Trade prices on every item fluctuate with each patch. Packdolls are no different than any other item, and they certainly are not immune to the process; there is no reason they SHOULD be. Packdolls have asolutely ZERO purpose in game other than collecting, yet they have been one of the highest priced items forever. That balloon needed popping a long time ago. Sure, it would have been nice to have the new stuff issued with different icons or some such to tag them as not being "originals". But it wouldnt have really changed anything. Very few ppl really care if your Hoary is pre-patch or not. Most couldnt care less if the Shadow Armor you are trading is from the old days or the same thing re-issued, with different colors. And those are FUNCTIONAL items.

The VALUE of your packdolls hasnt changed one whit. Only the PRICE of them will change. No one is taking your collection away from you. No one is taking away the history of collecting it. All Turbine has done is make it possible for others to enjoy the same thing. You preach about how Turbine has "screwed collectors", when in reality they have made it possible for more than just the elite class to be able to enjoy collecting. Anyone that begrudges another player to enjoy the same things THEY profess to enjoy, should be ashamed of themselves.

Damien_Sarin

08-14-2004, 11:24 AM

"Very few ppl really care if your Hoary is pre-patch or not. Most couldnt care less if the Shadow Armor you are trading is from the old days or the same thing re-issued, with different colors. And those are FUNCTIONAL items."

That is exactly my point. The normal players wouldn't care if the items were reintroduced slightly different. Most of them don't care if the items are readded at all unless they are functional or better than what they already have.

"Anyone that begrudges another player to enjoy the same things THEY profess to enjoy, should be ashamed of themselves."

The enjoyment comes from aquiring things that are not available to everyone. The enjoyment is not in the novelty of possessing a full set. Hence my ball of fire comparison. An item that a player like you could care less about yet it's a very very important item to collectors.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against the decision to bring the pack dolls back. But like I said in my other post, it is their aesthetic that normal players want them for, collectors wanted them for the antique. It's not the item that matters to the collector, it's the rarity of the item. And the appeal and value is determined by the difficulty it is to aquire.

Your post only validates mine in that the only people affected negatively by this change, are the people who it actually matters to. And your post also makes clear that you have no respect for thier playstyle.

"Anyone that begrudges another player to enjoy the same things THEY profess to enjoy, should be ashamed of themselves."

Anyone that begrudges another player to enjoy the things they enjoy becuase YOU don't enjoy it the same way, should be ashamed of themselves.

viserov

08-14-2004, 02:08 PM

This is weird. Ever since this event started, I've been having trouble with combat with my bow guy. When I get in combat mode (while wielding a bow) and try to attack a creature or other player, my guy just runs towards the target instead of actually firing arrows.

sylphia

08-14-2004, 02:56 PM

You need to work on reading comprehension. I have stated form the start that I understand why the players who collected packdolls are upset. What I have ALSO said is that there is no reason to be blowing it into the proportions they have been doing. The ONLY "collectors" that will be upset by this are those that think they have some exclusive right to the tiems they have collected. If your sole value in an item is that someone ELSE doesnt have it or cant get access to it, then YOU are the one who should be ashamed. And it proves the point I have been making all along. You arent upset because the "value" of your items has gone down--it hasnt. You are upset because you can no longer say "HA! I have this and YOU cant get it!" It doesnt even satisfy you that Turbine as made it ridiculously hard to get a full set even wuth them being re-introduced. Nooooo they must be allowed ONLY to be in the hands of the players who were here before, or who have the cash to support buying it off those who were. Thats a greedy and very selfish way of treating other players. If THATS your idea of a "playstyle" then you are correct: I have zero respect or toelrence for it.

*IF* however, you are the type of person who likes collecting jusnk just because you like collecting junk, and you take pride in it because you went through efforts to get it, and you dont care that someone else can get the exact same hting, because THIS set of junk is YOURS, then by all means knock yourself out. But if that were the case, you wouldnt be complaining that others can now do it as well. You profess that your joy is in the collecting, yet you would deny anothe rplayer that exact same joy. I call that hypocritical and selfish, and a number of other words that wont pass this board's filters. And anyone like that who wants to QUIT over it, by all means dont let the door hit you on the way out.

Its one thing to put value in something you have worked to acquire. Its another thing to draw that value by DENYING anyone else being able to get it. The first is a testament to determination and goal-achieving. The second is simple greed and selfishness. The ONLY ppl that will complain about pack dolls being added back in are the ones who think that someone ELSE being able to colelct the same hting will somehow devalue their own collection; those are the folks that value more what other ppl DO NOT have than what they themselves DO HAVE. I have no respect for that viewpoint.

Bleinmeis

08-14-2004, 04:31 PM

[QUOTE=Damien_Sarin

Your post only validates mine in that the only people affected negatively by this change, are the people who it actually matters to. And your post also makes clear that you have no respect for thier playstyle.

Anyone that begrudges another player to enjoy the things they enjoy becuase YOU don't enjoy it the same way, should be ashamed of themselves.[/QUOTE]

Couldn't agree more!

This pack doll issue is most important to collectors... and it is those collectors that are negatively affected.

Scout X

08-14-2004, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Ibn
When possible, we will try to do this. However if resources force us to decide between bringing them back unmodified and not bringing them back at all, we're going to choose option 1. I understand why you're upset Surfal, but our priority is going to go towards getting items into the hands of all of our players, not preserving the exclusivity of the collections of a select few.

Then why don't you bring back cheese-grater heaumes? so theat you are "not preserving the exclusivity of the collections of a select few." and try "getting items into the hands of all of our players". I think that would be nice.

Also, with this this logic, you're being hypocritical of way back in the day when you re-added shadow armor with the same stats as gold (PP) GSA. Why didn't you bring back GSA to being gold and matching, instead of the horrid brown/white set? were you trying to keep the rarity of the gold stuff in? Maybe i dont fully understand what you (turbine) are trying to say, but thats what it sounds like to me.

Not long ago, my brother acquired the last doll i needed for the set i was collecting, and paid a decent amount to get it for me. Now, I could have just gone and gambled for it, woop-di-do.

I don't know if you people realise this, but its only been a few days and ppl have gotten dolls from the casino, so they aren't THAT rare at all. After 30 days go by, how many do you think there will be from the people who keep trying? I don't know.... but it always seems like its one "bright" idea to the next here.....

Bhodi Amashi

08-15-2004, 12:51 AM

It is written, "A fool and his money are soon parted."

Skinnerc

08-15-2004, 07:03 AM

Bit O Honey

08-15-2004, 03:47 PM

the war paint is cool idea but...female wise it looks tacky cuz we dont have anything we can wear over our white tank tops.girths we can wear and undies. now how about a matching top for the loincloth you put in this month? =) that would look coolio. guy toons have it made they can go topless. girl toons cant. :( if there is something we can wear over top plz inform for i havent found anything yet.

FmrSentFlatfoot

08-16-2004, 10:14 AM

Oh, lets not forget about your lovely patron-vassal allegiance changes. I find it fantastic that Turbine wants to reward the patron-vassal relationship. I find it poor design and rather... dumb on Turbine's part, to not reward a monarch-allegiance relationship. Ibn, you guys want people to help other people in the game, right? I mean, that's why you have the patron-vassal xp passup thing as it is. Why don't you wanna do the same thing for monarchs, who every knows do a lot for their entire allegiance, not just directs?

Why are we still harping on what the XP-Chain Nerf eradicated? It's gone, and it's been gone for a decent while now, and most if not all people have adjusted. Let it go, or you'll just drive yourself nuts over a no longer in-effect part of the game.

In terms of giving the Monarch some "special" cut of the entire earned XP from every follower, that's also greed speaking and looks kinda lame coming from just "one" voice in the wind. You don't see any other Monarch in here begging for XP, so again I say...let it go.

From my going-on six year experience in this game, what I have seen is counter to what you say about Monarchs doing for their followers the same as a patron does for their vassals. Yes, there are a certain percentage of Monarchs who DO give a lot of themselves to all their followers, but I'd have say the vast majority do not. Now in saying this, what I mean is that most Monarchs start out with the greatest of intentions, and will usually be around most of the time to help out, provide guidance, lead quests, etc., etc., but eventually as time goes on, and more followers join up and you become an allegiance of many hundreds or even many thousands, the allegiance takes on a new role, and the Monarch now has the power through those who were with him from the start, who are now higher level, to delegate authority amongst the entire allegiance, cutting the Monarch's duties in half or even dwarfing them compared to how it started out.

Before you know, the Monarch is surrounded by many YES people, who Hail the monarch as their mighty, wonderful, all seeing, all knowing, Demi-God. At that point, the Monarch usually lets this adoration go to their head, and they start actually believing they are as wonderful and mighty as everyone calls them. Hey, this happens in real-life too.... take any new budding musician, singer, etc., put them under a spotlight, play their songs on the radio 50 times a day, and before you know it, they're MEGA-Stars, with a million+ people chasing around to catch a glimpse of them or get a picture.. or an autograph... same for Sports Stars and any STAR that we make of them. So yes, as in real-life, people in AC eventually become so attached to their Monarch and treat them with such reverence, that the Monarch starts to believe it themself....and honestly, how much better can a Monarch be over the next person or many people in that allegiance who can do everything as good if not better than the Monarch does? Zero... because this isn't about Real-Life Talent, it's only a GAME where we're ALL equals. :cool:

Guess what happens next? Monarch does next to nothing... logs on, everyone says HAIL MIGHTY MONARCH, Monarch sets a new MOTD, speaks a few words.. jokes around.. everyone agrees... maybe goes on one quest to show he's still the mighty fearless leader, and then logs off again for another day or a week+. The allegiance continues on.. no problem, because there's so many (let's call them) Officers around, including the actual allegiance Officers who now have the power of the Monarch, that take care of the whole show so the Monarch doesn't NEED to be around.

I've witnessed this situation SO many times, on 3 servers now... it's just pathetic. So because of the majority who wind up on this path to self glorification, the ones who truly DO help and are always or close to always online for their followers, I'd vote that the system to not give Monarch's a cut of all the generated XP, should stand as is.

Since you, Heideggar happen to post a lot in here about this predicament, probably means that you're online always or an awful lot, and maybe you do deserve a reward, but because of the majority who don't show up very often for their followers, have to take the hard knocks in not seeing it come to pass.

I finally joined another larger group again, so I'm no longer Monarch... but I was practically always online just like I've always been for the past 6 years, always there to help anyone who asked. The new group I joined, was so that all my people would have greater numbers to quest with... but the Monarch I'm under now, rarely shows up in-game... and that's why I say and think what I do. The day he starts showing signs that he's somehow better than the rest... I'm OUT again. I don't stand for people who lord over others. Never have. It's wrong.

Have a good day! :)

Heideggar

08-16-2004, 12:23 PM

Flatfoot, I used to be one of these "officers" long ago, with a couple thousand people under me. I lead the majority of quests for the allegiance, recoveries, etc. etc. everything a monarch probably would do. When the monarch was away for a while, his directs/sub-leaders of the various branches under him took up the roll, as you pointed out, to help lead in his/her abscence. This allegiance had ~10k people, and before chains were around lol. I lead aerlinthe quests that had 3-4 full fellows, and about every other time there was a fellow that came along from other allegiances to learn the quest, or just go on it. The flow of xp for that allegiance structure made sense. It's just sad that the same xp-flow that helped that structure ended up being exploited to make chain allegiances. You gotta also remember that Turbine said they were going to make these changes well in advance of them being put ingame. At the time, _MANY_ people gave good, solid, suggestions to offer a allegiance-wide, not just patron-vassal wide, reward system based on what Turbine wanted to do, yet Turbine found the words of many of the players to not hold water. Fact is, the people at Turbine do not hold positions ingame that require solid leadership abilities like an active monarch or an active patron.

Maybe it's the smaller allegiances that get hit the most with this. I mean, my allegiance is only around 600. Many are around that same number. On MT, allegiances like Evoker II, William the Bat, and Meginjarder (Hungwell), are the top 3 biggest allegiances. I know Evoker II, we go PvP'ing often, meet up on quests, chat, etc. I used to be in Elder, which is now William the Bat. All three of these people are very active people, and lead the biggest allegiances on our server. The trend, at least on our server, is that inactive monarch allegiances break up. The rate at which they might break up depends on allegiance size (possible demand), and loyalty of the leaders in that allegiance.

On MT we have an allegiance update thing that says the name of the allegiance, who the monarch is, their size, hometown, website, etc. Most are rather small to medium sized guilds. I don't see those allegiances having an inactive monarch.

Thing is, I'm not suggesting that the monarch get a percentage of the entire xp production of the allegiance. There were other ways suggested a while ago on how to tackle this situation. Now, take in to consideration the expansion pack, and the possibility of not allowing someone with 20 billion more xp than you (you being lvl 150) into your allegiance.

It's not just one thing, it's several things combined.

Silik

08-16-2004, 01:18 PM

If it's so important that everyone should have a chance to get these items, I think it's fairly obvious that you need to rethink this whole "rares" thing. Give us all the triple-major, triple-7s item, not just one person per month. There's no way that we're all going to be able to get that either, and I think that that's just unfair! And it's even something that's useful!

I didn't hear masses of people clamoring for the pack dolls. I'm sure I /will/ hear masses clamoring for the rares. Re-introducing the pack dolls was a bad idea. Yes, the collecting is often about the act of collecting, not owning the items. But why don't many people collect lugian weapons? Because they're more common than dirt--if it isn't difficult to find the thing, why bother?

By re-introducing the pack dolls, you're making it much easier to find them. You're greatly reducing the value of collecting them; yes, they're still going to be better to collect than lugian weapons. No, they're not going to be /nearly/ as difficult to collect as they used to, they're not going to give nearly the sense of accomplishment.

bertman

08-16-2004, 01:22 PM

OK, it's time for me to weigh in on the collection of pack dolls.

First, let me say that I am a collector, and always have been. First it was stamps, then coins, then comic books. I never got to collecting cars. Second, I have to admit to being in possession of a full set of pack dolls. So now my cards are all on the table.

The problem with data is that it can be duplicated time and again with no variation from the original. AC pack dolls are data. Comic books and stamps and coins are not data. A printing of X-Men number 94 can only happen once, and if you tried it again, you would have to make notations in the copyrights to designate it as a reprint. In fact, when I was young, I realized that the series Marvel Tales was actually reprints of The Amazing Spider-man from 10 years earlier. This was a surprise, since I had purchased them for a year or more before I realized they were not worth as much as the original for collecting purposes.

So the point with collectibles, like Franklin Mint and Beanie Babies, is that by saying they are collectors' items, it is stated that they will not be endlessly duplicated. An item must be rare in order to make it collectible, and as is to be expected with rare items, they become more rare as entropy decreases their numbers. The numbers are limited, and then cannot increase, but must decrease. I don't know that Turbine has ever said that pack dolls were rare, or collectible. If they did, then in my opinion, they lied by reintroducing older pack dolls into the game. At any rate, by reintroducing them, Turbine is now saying that they are neither rare nor collectors' items.

I want to address the other arguument that I see, which is that those who have want to protect their franchise from those who have not. Well, I'm sorry, I disagree. There is really now way to argue against the ideal that everyone should have everything that they need, and nobody should have more than everyone else. Thus we should take the riches away from the rich, and give them to the poor in equal measure, so that everyone has exactly the same, and then everyone would be happy, because everyone would have what they need. The world would be a better place. Kumbaya. So I guess I am being a Republican if I argue that the fact that I have something does not necessarily deprive someone else of something. I suppose that I should be happy if everyone would be able to go down to the One Dollar Store and buy a first-day cover of the Apollo 11 moon landing. I mean, how is it fair that only a few people have these, and are happy, while many do not have them, and are unhappy?

So reintroducing rare and collectible items may help to make more people able to enjoy the exhilaration of having their own collection? Sorry, I have news for you. You will never be able to enjoy the exhilaration, because THEY ARE NEITTHER RARE NOR COLLECTIBLE! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!! HAHAHAHA! HAhahaha. You have destroyed the exclusivity of my collection, but you got nothing. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Whew.

Anyway, I'm not upset, since the town cryer will take my collection, and nobody will know, and your worthless collection will be worth just a little bit more for just a few minutes. Or even better, I'll sell them to some scmoe who really wants a collection that they don't realize is now worthless. Oh no! I may start laughing again! But, I won't cancel any accounts and I won't delete any characters. But I must say that this is the most disappointed I have been in now 2 full years of Asheron's Call.

bertman

08-16-2004, 01:39 PM

You arent upset because the "value" of your items has gone down--it hasnt. You are upset because you can no longer say "HA! I have this and YOU cant get it!" It doesnt even satisfy you that Turbine as made it ridiculously hard to get a full set even wuth them being re-introduced.
I'm excerpting a small part of your reply for the gist of your position. First, I have to say that I respect your position from having read your comments on other issues. But I think you are off the mark here. Collections are only collections because they have a rareness associated with them Unfortunately, rareness means that only a limited supply exists. Since supplies are limited, only a few can have them, starting with those that want them initially to get them when they are relatively plentiful, and those that ar willing to pay huge sums to obtain them.

The value of a collection or a collectors' item is derived from its rarity. Simple statement of fact. I guess some people see it as a problem that there are those who would broker pack dolls for high amounts of virtual cash. Some people see profits as a sign of greed. It is bad to get something that somebody else really really wants for cheap, and then to sell it to them at outrageous prices. By making old pack dolls available again, they have not made collections available, they have devalued collections, and made items available.

It really doesn't matter one way or another because its just a freaking game for Pete's sake, and any similarity at all to real life is merely coincidental. We should all be 126 at the start, with maxed out attributes. Why should one player have higher skills than another? Also, there should be a house created for every character, that way everyone can have a house, and nobody can make huge profits off of them. And good grief, why should I have to go to VOD to get majors?

sylphia

08-16-2004, 03:25 PM

Again, responding to several posts at once here...

Rare does not necessarily equal limited in number. Rare simply means hard to get; limited compared to other more "common" items, but not finite. Everyone complaining about pack dolls being reintroduced are acting like you just walk up toa town crier, and he hands you one each time you talk to him, Thats not that way it works. First you have to do a quest for a specific item (which form what i understand is on a timer) Then you have to take that item to the casinos and get a random reward form it, which (rarely) results in apack doll. Out of all of the pack dolls, you have a small chance of actually getting the one you WANTED. If you get one you DIDNT want, you go right back into the player-trade system and trade the one you DID get for one you wanted.

Pack dolls are by no means "common". They are still rare, and still time-consuming to acquire. The only thing that has changed is that they are now POSSIBLE to get again, not EASY to get.

The arguement about handing out super-uber items compared to packdolls is, at best, childish. Turbine isnt giving out packdolls. You have to go out and hunt/quest for them. Just like those triple-spell items, or majors, or any of the other high-end loot items you want to use as an example. Even the Rares they plan on introducing with the X-pack. Everyone has an equal chance of getting them. The more you hunt/kill, the greater your chances are of getting them, The more you quest for packdolls, the greater your chance of getting one, and the greater chance of getting the specific one you are looking for. In all cases, they are by no means being handed out on silver platters. You dont just log in and find them in your backpacks liek the first set; you have to go out and get them.

Re-introducing pack dolls makes them no longer colectable? That is so such a ridiculous statement, I wont even bother with a counter.

Are packdolls AS rare as pre-patch? No they arent. Are they any less valuable to a COLLECTOR for that? no. Are they less valuable to an INVESTOR? yes.

I collect things IRL too; we all collect SOMETHING (even if its just dust :p ). I collect eales and dragons and the occaisional odd bit of fantasy memorabilia. I collect based on what appeals to me and what I can afford. I dont collect a particular piece because its limited edition or because I can keep the next guy from getting it, thereby raising the "market value" of my piece. If I were to purchase a piece for such reasons, I would no longer be collecting, I would be investing. There is a big difference between the two. Someone who collects does so simply for the joy of obtaiing an item they admire. Someone who invests does so with the intent of reselling it when it peaks at price. If you are looking at the rarity of an item or its market value, then you are investing, even if you profess to be collecting. To a collector, its market value is meaningless. Whether a given in-game item is worth 1 pyreal or 100 sigs makes no difference whether or not a collector will enjoy having it. But it WILL impact on the "enjoyment" of an investor.

Collectors have no reason to complain about pack dolls being introduced again; it makes it possible for them to obtain the things they like again, at a more reasonable cost or application of time and effort. Only investors have a reason to complain, because the market value of the dolls will decrease (though it will level out eventually, just like verything else does), because they are still rare and a pain to get. I hold no sympathy for the investors, as I dont believe they shold be allowed to have that kind of power over the collectors. And as I have said before: anyone who would begrudge another player being able to enjoy the same things you profess to enjoy, is a hypocrit and not worthy of my respect or sympathy.

As I have also said, instead of complaining about old dolls being re-issued (they are here and they are staying so accept it and move on), you should be asking for NEW dolls to be issued. Something new to collect besides the old sets.

bertman

08-16-2004, 03:59 PM

Childish? Well! You can't remint silver certificates. You can't reprint Action Comics #1, without saying it is a reprint. You can't get autographs from Elvis Presley, at least I don't think you can. These things are of the past. Pack dolls were of the past, which made them valuable, like silver certificates, Action Comics #1, and Elvis Presley's autograph. I'm sorry if I don't want everyone to own a copy of Action Comics #1. I don't own one either. What is childish about that? And I am entitled to my opinion, which I have said is my opinion. You don't have to listen or agree. Unfortunately, this late in the argument I'm just a hypocrite selfishly and jealously lamenting the loss of an item that collectors wanted and investors profited from.

And you may say that these items are not less valuable, but you would be wriong. If a collectors' item cannot be used as an investment, how is it valuable? Some people collect items because they are rare, and the more rare an item is, the more valuable it is. Some people actually purchase collectors' items as an investment, because they can be sold later for more money. Even in the real world. Yes, the real world. So am I to hate the rich person who has a collection of rare art because he has it and I don't? Why should a rich man have art in his house that he gets to see and only his friends can enjoy. It's not fair.

My set of pack dolls was accumulated by someone else, and given to me as a gift. A complete set. It was a collection when I got it, now it is a set. There is a difference, even though there would be fewer people who could have these items to enjoy. OK, so it is still difficult to accumulate a set of pack dolls. They are still hard to get, but not as hard as before. Now you have a situation where more people can now enjoy their own set of pack dolls.

We have reached the point at which private property meets the general welfare. A little old lady owns a house, but they need the land for a road. The little old lady doesn't want to move, she's been there for a really long time. Unfortunately, more people will benefit if we just take the house and build the road. What will we do? Of course, we take the house, build the road, and tell the little old lady to get over it.

Deiwos_WE

08-16-2004, 04:00 PM

I think you've got a couple of misconceptions Sylvia. First off, the distinction between "collector" and "investor" has NOTHING to do with the value of items acquired...it has to do with intent. I can acquire low value items in bulk with the intent of making my target profit in volume rather than individual markup, or I can acquire occasional items with the intent of making my target profit through individual markup...in either case I'm an investor. Likewise, I can acquire inexpensive items with the intent to retain them, or I can acquire expensive items with the intent to retain them...in either case I'm a collector.

The second item of confusion is the term "value". Just because someone says they "value" something does not mean they are talking about monetary (sing-etary? :p ) value. So when someone says their pack dolls are less valueable to them, it does not follow that they must be collectors. Value judgements are by definition subjective; without asking them what basis they are using for assigning values, you simply don't know what exactly they mean by that statement.

To be honest, I can understand why you don't share their assessment of this particular change...by your own words you collect items based on different values than they. But, I have a hard time understanding why you can't see the point of their argument and empathize with it...after all, with a different change they could be you.

Imagine that, instead of adding them back in game, Turbine instead decided that what people really wanted was for the pack dolls to be hideously ugly. Now, imagine for a second that you (or some hypothetical person) collected pack dolls only because they were cute. It's quite possible that the group of collectors screaming today wouldn't care at all. If they valued the dolls because they were finite, rare and hard to get, then maybe they don't really care what they look like. But, if you (or our hypothetical collector) only valued them because they were cute, then such a change would destroy the value of pack dolls to THAT collector.

Isn't it likely that, in that scenario, you (or our imaginary collector again :) ) would come to the boards saying, "why couldn't you introduce NEW ugly pack dolls instead of changing mine?"

Well, the fact is, for many collectors, Turbine DID change the only important attributes about their collection...they made the pack dolls infinite, and much, MUCH less hard to acquire.

KsBabe

08-16-2004, 05:02 PM

I collect pack dolls and yes I am happy that there is a chance (very slim from what I have seen) to acquire more pack dolls to add to my collection. I have some of the rare ones and have had them for over two years and the "value" of them will never matter to me because I like them.
I was told on a post that I hadn't tried hard to get the rest of the set over the years but the truth being I wasnt going to pay the high prices that was asked for them from sellers. IMO collectors dont sell items they want to collect to make cash from others but they keep what they truly want to collect.
I look at it a true collector doesnt put a price on things they enjoy and truly want to collect, they collect them for personal reasons like they like them. I know people that collect different rocks, not because of the value of them but because they want to collect them and do you think they would be upset if someone else could get the rocks they collected because they wanted to collect the rocks too? Or would they ask for everyone to remove all rocks from the earth so no one could ever get any more rocks so the value would go up and they would become rare? Yes this example does sound stupid but then so does true collectors that is mad over making it possible for others to enjoy a part of AC history that they never had a chance to before.
And another thing, this is only a game and not real life, it is against the rules to sell anything that is part of AC so you cant tag on a real money value on the items that is collected and once you leave AC the items will be gone so why worry about what others have or do not have and if they can get things that they couldnt get before?
Let everyone enjoy this game and things that is a part of it and dont worry about the value of an item because it isnt real, you cant hold it in your hands or put it on a shelf in your house, only way you can enjoy it is to log on to your PC, gaze at it over the screen and then log off. So let anyone who is lucky enough to get a pack doll enjoy it as anyone who collects them does.
And yes Syliva I agree with you there is a difference between a collector and a investor and the latter only cares about the value of something not the item itself!

Deiwos_WE

08-16-2004, 05:22 PM

And yes Syliva I agree with you there is a difference between a collector and a investor and the latter only cares about the value of something not the item itself!

Caring about "the item itself" is the very essence of "valuing the item". To say, in effect, "my way of valuing items is better than your way" is arrogant to say the least.

KsBabe

08-16-2004, 05:30 PM

Caring about "the item itself" is the very essence of "valuing the item". To say, in effect, "my way of valuing items is better than your way" is arrogant to say the least.
I value my collectables as the value I place on them and what they personally mean to me, I could care less about the dollar value attached to them. This to me isnt arrogant, it is the way I and other collectors look at things. Money value and personal value is two different things.

bertman

08-16-2004, 05:44 PM

If you don't value something enough to pay for it, then you don't value it as much as someone who pays. And we're not talking about cash here, just plats or sings or whatever is the money these days. And my set of pack dolls is in my villa, on the first floor where people can ID them as they run by. It's like having a Hummer in your driveway. How special is it if everyone on the street has a Hummer in the driveway? Or everyone in town? And one of the main reasons I like my set of pack dolls is because they were called "Limited Edition." Maybe Turbine or Microsoft never said they were Limited Editions, but Limited Editions are mad specifically so that people will always know they are limited. Either limited by being produced for a specific length of time, or limited as in we only made 10000 of these. If I bought something that was a limited edition, I would be p o if I found out that every single copy of an unlimited production run were called Limited Edition.

And finally, what I think is the crux of the whole matter: There are those who think everyone should have everything the same. They have been wanting pack dolls forever, and now they can have them. I don't care, you go ahead and enjoy something which was once rare, but is now commonplace, because you didn't get it when it was rare. You also didn't get to play beta. And you didn't macro when it was legal. And you never did xp chain. And you still haven't made it to 126 after 4 years.

sylphia

08-16-2004, 05:49 PM

Bert,
(1) There is a world of difference between somethng issued by the Franklin Mint and something found in-game. Your previous post indicated you understood that. You cant compare packdolls to Silver Certificates; they simply do not equate.

(2) Rememebr the part where I said I was respoding to multiple posts?

If it's so important that everyone should have a chance to get these items, I think it's fairly obvious that you need to rethink this whole "rares" thing. Give us all the triple-major, triple-7s item, not just one person per month. There's no way that we're all going to be able to get that either, and I think that that's just unfair! And it's even something that's useful! [etc]

The arguement about handing out super-uber items compared to packdolls is, at best, childish. etc

Is the proper context. I was responding to someone else's post, not yours. Ordinarily, I make it a pont of adressing each person's points individually, so as to avoid such confusion. To be blunt, I am feeling like **** today (sick) and I was trying to hurry through my response. Ah well. Suffice it to say that comment wasnt directed at you.

Deiwos,
Collector vs Investor has EVERYTHING to do with the relative value of an item. And I belive I have defined the two quite well. A COLLECTOR gathers items because (s)he likes those items, finds something that appeals to them personally. What they are worth to other ppl is irrelevant to a collector. A nice snap-shot of a mountain vista on a 25-cent postcard would be just as valueable to them as one painted by Picasso. an INVESTOR sees the dollar signs first, and the item second. An item only has value to them if it has value to someone else. The appeal is in acquiring something that others cannot. The pricier something is, the more they want it. Even if the item lacks any personal appeal to them whatsoever, the investor will try and obtain it, if only to keep it out of the hands of their competitors. They acquire things for "bragging rights", to say, "Look at me! I have this and you dont!"

The collector prizes the acquisition of an item, not how many (or more to the point how FEW) other ppl are allowed to also acquire it. Anyone who puts value in a piece because of its rarity is INVESTING in that piece. If you believe your collection of (insert any item here) has been devalues because other ppl can get it, or because it is no longer as rare as it once was, then you are an investor. If your collection means just as much to you even if every person you ever met has the same things, then you are a collector. If you do BOTH, then you are by default an investor.

The bottom line is that, if you are making ANY investment in in-game items, you accept the risk that, at any time, the bottom can fall out of your market for that item. Including from re-introduction of the item back into the game. For a true collector, the value of an item only depreciates when they themselves loose their personal interest in the item. If that interest was based on market value and rarity of the item, then they were, simply, investing, not collecting.

Deiwos_WE

08-16-2004, 06:00 PM

Syvia, that's is simply NOT true.

in·vest ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-vst)
v. in·vest·ed, in·vest·ing, in·vests
v. tr.

1. To commit (money or capital) in order to gain a financial return: invested their savings in stocks and bonds.

If you are not planning to acheive future financial gain, you are not investing, pure and simple. I don't care if you purchased the most exclusive, rare and expensive item in the entire world, if you are not planning on gaining from it financially, you are NOT investing. I'm not even sure how there can be confusion about this.

And if you purchased it because you thought you'd be the only person in the world to own it, and then others were found, you might very well "value" your acquision less than before...not because its worth more monetarily...you weren't planning on future financial gain, remember? You'd value it lower because you wanted something unique, and now its no longer what you wanted.

Just because YOU don't collect that way doesn't make it any less of a valid way to collect.

Silik

08-16-2004, 06:19 PM

You might think it's childish to apply a standard universally. I, however, find the "because I say so" argument to be moreso.

How can you possibly say that it's fair for everyone to have all of the same "useless" items, but not the useful ones? Why shouldn't I be able to greatly simplify my hunting outfit, or do equivalent damage to someone else? Someone that just got lucky, or paid a lot more than I could possibly afford?

If Turbine wants to apply this "let them all have everything" rule, I'm just calling on them to do it uniformly. For both the "useless" and the useful items. For if they're just going to allow everyone to have the "useless" items, but just dole out a handful of the useful ones, they're only going to succeed in /incraesing/ the gap between the 'haves' and 'have nots'. At least with things like the pack dolls, the 'have nots' weren't /missing/ anything that the 'haves' had. They didn't have pack dolls. So? They could trade for them if they wanted them. They could realize that, hey, these people were playing back when Turbine Screwed Up, and if they stick around long enough, they'll get to be in the 'haves' too. Or they could realize that, "hey, they're just pack dolls."

By having rares, however, the new guys aren't going to have nearly the chance that the old ones did. Some rares will be found, some rares will start to be traded. And if you expect me to believe that a newbie is going to have a chance at bidding on something that's found a couple times a /year/ (per server), you're going to have to wait a while so I can get the laughter out.

Turbine, please. Pick a standard. Stand by it. But if you're going to decide that it's ok for some players to have the useful items, but not everyone, please realize that it's also fine for the ones that have no real use.

FmrSentFlatfoot

08-16-2004, 06:54 PM

AAAAAAAAHHH!!!!!! LOL

Enough about the pack dolls already! Geeeeeeez.......

Try and remember something real important here: Pack Dolls are INTANGIBLES!

They're not TANGIBLES like Silver Certificates, Action Comics, Autographs from Elvis Presley, etc., etc. These are Real-Life things you CAN touch, smell, taste, (not that I'd want to eat any of them :p ), put in a curio cabinet, on your desk etc. Pack Dolls CANNOT exist outside of your computer monitor. So, they are NOTHING.. NO VALUE.. They're not even collectibles! How does one collect an intangible? It's impossible. It doesn't even EXIST!!

I'm not going to go on about this anymore... just please drop it. The horse was shot days ago and has been decaying and smells real bad now... why are you still standing by its carcass hoping it'll spring to its hoofs and sprint off into the sunrise/sunset?

Damien_Sarin

08-16-2004, 06:57 PM

..........

sylphia

08-16-2004, 07:41 PM

Silik, Turbine isnt GIVING these to anyone. They are making it POSSIBLE for everyone to go and get them. You CAN have all the rending wpns you want, all the hgh AL armor you want, or any other item you want; you have to go get them, be it via trade, hunting, or questing. Prior to the patch, the ONLY way you could get the old pack dolls was to somehow talk the plp who already owned them out of them. You could NOT go out and get them on your own. Now you can. Just like you CAN go out and get your own slash rend sword or bludge rend cestus or singularity wand or whatever other piece of uber gear you want to get. You could always go get those; you just have to put effort into it. And before you cry that only "old players" can get THOSE, I suggest you go to VT, where those things are already in use, on a server where players have NOT been able to stockpile them for years.

Nothing prevents you from getting those items, whether you are a new or old player, and now nothing prevents you from getting pack dolls.

And the only one using "because I say so" as an arguement is you. I have clearly stated why I support Turbine's decision to add the dolls back in, and why the folks complaining about it shoudl quit acting like it has somehow doomed the future of the game. All this Chicken-Little nonsens is exactly that: nonsense. Turbine has done nothing to hurt a COLLECTOR in this game by adding dolls back in. They have simply made it possible for current and future collectors to have the same opportunites as ones in the past. There is NO reason why a non-game balnce item should be restricted. Packdolls do NOT affect the balance of the game itself; they are simply for looks, nothing else. If you think that makes or breaks AC, then fine. Quit in protest.

Pack dolls *ARE* still rare. They just are no longer impossible to get via any method other than trading.

Deiwos,

If you are basing your worth of an item on its tradablitly, its rarity, or its value to SOMEONE ELSE, then yes you ARE investing, whether it is with the intention of reselling it or not. If you dont care about the value of it to someone else, then why do you scream so loudly that someon else can now get it? Why should it matter to you if Bob has 50 Pack idols? Did it change how you got yours? Did it alter the story of how you quested/saved/traded for it? If someon else having access to an item somehow cheapens its value in your view, then you were obtaiing it for investment, not for collecting. Items have value to a collector based on the items themselves and what kind of appeal they have to him. If your value and the appeal of the item is based on its relative worth to other players, then it is, by definition, an investment decision, not colelcting.

You can either grasp this concept or you cant. In either case, I stand by my original statement that anyone who would begrudge another player the right to the same item, solely based on the idea that it somehow cheapens his OWN item, is a hypocrit and selfish. No, I do not recognize that as a valid "playstyle", nor do I hold the least bit of respect for it. I value my own possessions for what they mean to ME, not what they mean to you or anyone else in the game. I value them for how they affect MY gameplay, not by how much someon ELSE is missing out by not having them.

The short version is that I dont need for someone else to suffer the penalty of lacking one of my possesions, in order for it to have value and enjoyment for ME.

Silik

08-16-2004, 07:45 PM

I'm sorry, I didn't even read your whole post. So if there's something in there about actual rares, I probably missed it.

When I say rares, I'm not talking about rends or high AL armor or such. When I talk about rares, I'm talking about the new expansion "1 per month for /all/ server" items. The rares. The things that are going to be much more rare than the pack dolls ever were or will be. Those rares. And there's no way a newbie is going to ever have an equal chance of getting one of those as an old player will. Can they get them via hunting? Yes. Trade for one? Never. Can they expect to get one, if they try hard and long enough? Nope. The pack dolls, as they were, could be expected to be recieved after trying hard enough. They were still out for trade, at decent prices.

Good luck with rares.

sylphia

08-16-2004, 08:05 PM

Rares are going to be hard to get period. Everyone has an equal chance of getting them. The best rare in the game has an equal chance of dropping off of a drudge skulker as off of a Diamond Golem Suzerain or off of a Virindi Quidiox.

Sure, some high lvl players will farm the low-end mobs, killing them in droves to try and find rares. But how long do you think they will keep it up before they get sick of it, especially given how hard the rares are gong to be to get in the first place?

The simple fact is that the lvl 1 noob will have just as much chance of finding something super cool on his kills as the lvl 275 will of finding the same item on his kills. They made that clear in their release.

On the one hand its kind of silly, because what interests (and is useful to) a lvl 126+ toon is nowhere near the same as what is useful for a lvl 1 toon. The noob may wind up leaving it on the corpse or selling it in a shop, if he has no immediate use for it. But at the same time, it means that the noob JUST MIGHT get extremely lucky and pull something that he can trade to a higher lvl player, and be set for the next 50 lvls.

sixgun

08-17-2004, 08:14 AM

Gee... how about all these players WHO CANT PLAY this month as of yet because of the zone issues!?!? YOU SERIOUSLY dont wanna know how I feel about this update.

FmrSentFlatfoot

08-17-2004, 10:58 AM

Gee... how about all these players WHO CANT PLAY this month as of yet because of the zone issues!?!? YOU SERIOUSLY dont wanna know how I feel about this update.

What do you mean? As far as I know, there are no Zone issues... I still get in-game like I always have, as does everyone I know, and from the looks of the regulars you always see around all the time. Nothing as changed.

Besides, the Zone and the Game Servers are two different things, and therefore the Zone has nothing to do with the monthly update. You're talking apples and oranges here.

Newbie

08-17-2004, 11:20 AM

Omfg Stfu About Pack Dolls!

bertman

08-17-2004, 11:23 AM

tirador

08-17-2004, 11:26 AM

It has been interesting to see the lack of empathy on the part of some, Sylphia, and their total inability to understand cogently expressed arguments. Has nothing to do with reading comprehension (tsk tsk), just as all of the typos in your messages aren't REALLY reflections on your character. We all know that if you cared to you could have spelled that word correctly, or have looked it up.

And we all know that if someone wanted an Idol enough, they'd identify an owner, discuss what the owner would take for the item, and go out and earn that and complete the trade. Pack dolls weren't impossible to get before; that they were is central to your argument; your argument fails. Go stand in the corner while you work on your reasoning. This has been my first exposure to you, and I find you shrill and unpleasantantly puritanical; I'm certain to be amused by your response. Stultissime.

The pack dolls are symptomatic of another problem put thus by one wiser than I: "Turbine, please. Pick a standard. Stand by it."
-------

I took some of my lower level toons through the new content, and they loved it. The variety of challenges made them sweat and strain for success, and the variety of rewards pleased them all no end. Lots of swapping amongst them to perfect their kits.

I have read the press releases about the X-pac. It does look like fun. I am especially grateful that some things will now disappear on death; I think it good that death has consequence. This will change the playstyle of those who have found a particularly useful rare.

FmrSentFlatfoot

08-17-2004, 12:42 PM

So if I don't get in the forum in the first 20 minutes, then I don't get to express my opinion, which is solicited by Turbine when they say Tell Us What You Think? I came in a week after patch day, and I added my opinion on what matters to me. Just because everybody else discussed this for six days prior does not exclude me from expressing an opinion on the subject, just as people are still expressing an opinion on the loot nerfs of some months back, or the xp passup. Do they get told not to flagellate the deceased equestrian?

Truly not. But once the stench fills the nostrils, wouldn't logic dictate that backing away be for the best?

Of course, if you enter the discussion before you sense the galloping has been silenced, then it's fair game to voice your opinion; and for that reason alone, I must digress.

Please, by all means.. continue on if you think it will win favour, effecting a future change from the ruling party (Turbine). Although, from past experience I rather doubt it, which is the reasoning for my concern.

Good day to you, Sir.

Palum

08-17-2004, 02:31 PM

To value your possessions on the worth others place upon them is a selfish and unrewarding existance.

If you find others' ability to acquire items you have as infringing on your enjoyment of the item, then you never truly enjoyed it and have no basis of argument to begin with. Saying you enjoyed having a rare collection but are mad because the objects are available again is just a simple ploy to save the monetary value of your collection. If you don't want others to have it, you are simply and only selfish. Sorry, you can't fool everyone.

sylphia

08-17-2004, 03:46 PM

OMG you actually tried to flame on typing and spelling? You must be getting desperate.

Why should I empathize with someone who thinks that the only way their items have any value is if someon ELSE cant get them? You either value your items for thier own sake, or you dont. If you are COLELCTING, then their relative worth in a trade is irrelevant. If you are INVESTING, then yes this patch made a <<<SLIGHT>>> change in the trade value of dolls. Guess what? EVERY item i the game fluctuates with each patch, based on what was or was not added and what each new item does. Tinkering pretty much made GSA obsolete, which made shards and shadow poop pretty near worrthless. The addition of more mobs who drop SIKs made thebottom fall out of their market. Critters dropping lvl 7 scrolls pretty well put the lastnail in the coffin there. Everyone who made investments in those items lost out. Thats part of playing the investment racket; its just like the Stock Market. You take a risk, based on what YOU THINK the market will do with a particular item. For those who invested in packdolls, which ONLY have value as colelctors items, there was no risk, because you knew there was a closed source and a finite supply. Now you have to deal with proper fluctuation again, as the source is no longer closed. Pack dolls can no longer continue to grow in price indefinitely. And if you are upset over that, tough.

Pack dolls are for colecting as a novelty, not for bending players over in a trade. If you cant deal with fluctuations in value, you best stop investing in anything. The folks who actually grabbed up the pack dolls to COLLECT them havent been hurt by this, except to be justifiably bitter about the ridiculous prices they had to pay in the past to complete their collections. Turbine has simply removed the ability for players to continue doing that. And I fully support their decision to do so.

A good example is my room-mate; she is infatuated with pack dolls, and would LOVE to have a full set of them, But because they have been out of circulation, the only way she could ever complete a set would be to pay outrageous prices to another collector to persuade them to part with their stuff, or to buy them from someone who has specifically horded them for that reason. Either way, there is no way she could complete the set, because she simply does not have those kind of resources. Now, with pack dolls back in circulation, she can do the quest and try to get them, or she can go to MP, where the prices will be droping to a more resonable rate over the next few months. Gathering her "furbies" is now POSSIBLE for her again.

Empathy? I empathize with players like her, not greedy bastards who think they have the right to own the world and keep it out of the hands of those less "fortunate" than themselves. You dont have to agree with it anymore than I have to agree with anyone who thinks they have the right to monopolize the market on a couple of 1's and 0's. But thats my stance, and it will not change, even if the entire game community thought otherwise. Which, I assure you, it does not.

Silik

08-17-2004, 05:08 PM

sylphia

08-17-2004, 05:28 PM

A large part of the appeal of collecting is the rarity of the items being collected. It's not "I have this and you don't, so nyeah!" It's "I wanted one of these and actually had to go /work/ to manage to find one." The more common they are, the less appealing to be collected. Turbine is not only telling collectors that they're not important, that their desires don't matter. Turbine is /also/ telling us that, hey, they screwed up ages ago. They were sorry about it. But that's in the past, it doesn't matter to them anymore. The pack dolls /were/ a symbol of Turbine's appreciation to their faithful players. But no longer--now they're a symbol of Turbine's desire for new blood.

(1) If you value you colelction because it was hard to get, kudos. Guess what? It WAS hard to get when you got it. Changes to the gamelater have no impact on that. Even if there was a new one in your pack each time you logged on, you still had to work to get the ones you had. Nothing changes that.

(2) The old pack dolls are NOT easy to get even now. This is the point everyone seems to keep skipping right over. You still have to work to get the dolls; the only difference is that the game now ALLOWS youto do so.

Pack dolls are a symbol of Turbine's recognition that everyone deserves a chance to enjoy the game, whether they have been here 5 yrs or 5 days. Pack dolls are collectibles; nothing more. Why shouldnt newer player have the same opportunity to collect them as someone else? Joe newbie having a full set of pack dolls, whether he quested for them, bought them, or they were handed to him by a player who was quitting, has no impact on your collection. And it certainly has nothing to do with how YOU personally acquired your collection.

Even if the dolls WERE literally falling out of the sky for anyne to pick up, that wouldnt change how you got yours; thats the point Ibn tried to make right off the bat, and one of the ones I have been trying to make as well. The only thing that has dropped invalue about pack dolls is their TRADE value. Their value as collectors items has not changed one bit. Either you like them and want them, or you dont. If you ONLY want them because no one else can get them, then you arent collecting.

I am done with this topic. You either undesratnd it or you dont. No one has the right to deprive another player of their right to enjoy the game under the CoC. Anyone that advocates doing so is not worth my time to debate further.

Silik

08-17-2004, 05:43 PM

I am truly glad you're refraining from debating with yourself then. :) New players /could/ get the pack dolls. Yes, it was difficult, but there should be something for high-end collectors to aim for, not just high-end hunters. What is there for the collectors now?

tirador

08-17-2004, 06:17 PM

Sigh. Syphia, I have no idea what you are talking about. I explicitly do NOT flame you on typing and spelling: "We all know that if you cared to you could have spelled that word correctly, or have looked it up." Is that somehow beyond your comprehension? Ironic, in that you have earlier warned others that they need to work on their own comprehension(msg 121). I guess that sincerity is as much a stranger to you as empathy or reason. Wow, you are a mess, aren't you? Let me reassure you: I was perfectly sincere in my letter to you, and assumed that you could spell and punctuate correctly.
Your response is a spewed confusion of strawman, accusations, and assumed premises buried in half-digested and twisted constructions. I'm frankly unwilling to bring this tripe up to the standards of basic readability before trying to analyze further. You may have a valid point, but until you learn to effectively communicate it will remain lost. Insulsissimus.

FmrSentFlatfoot

08-17-2004, 06:18 PM

What is there for the collectors now?

Better friendships? :)

To me, that's FAR more rewarding and collectable than any virtual non-item, because you ARE dealing with tangibles, as there is a real live person behind every character (bots excepted).

I'm into collecting good friendships, not worthless items that don't exist. ;)

Heideggar

08-17-2004, 07:12 PM

lol, gonna stir up the pot with this, but I don't care a lot lol.

Lets try and look at it from the customer and Turbine's view a bit.

If you're new to the game, don't you feel as if you should have as much of a chance as those in the past to get the same items!? Granted, some things won't come back because of Dev time, but I can see this point of view from newer players.

Now, you have older players who played back then, and paid the monthly costs back then, and got the unique items. Seems to them, they paid for it, they played all these years to get the items.

I'm just trying to think here, if you knew that in 4 years you could get a lvl 126 and all the good gear without actually having to play most of those 4 years, would you!?

There's a good and bad side to this situation. On one end you have unique/rare items to keep people playing from month to month because they just don't know if something will be unique/rare or not. On the other hand you have people that missed out on months of content, or they are new, and would like the opportunity, like the rest, to get those items as well.

But, when you reintroduce those items for the latter people, it detracts the reasons the former group played, in terms of acquiring possibly unique/rare items.

I mean, if _I_ were Turbine, that's how I'd view it. In their decision making they need to decide what brings in the most money, which translates to what pleases the players the most, whether they know it or not.

I'm curious, if you got a new pack Grievver from a casino, and in the inscription it said, "Original Pack Grievver's evil Sister!" on it, would the new collectors care!? I mean, are they collecting the item, or the reasoning for the item being rare!? If there's a small slight difference between the original and the replica, do new collectors care!? Why? For all intensive purpose they're the same, save the text you see when ID'd. They're still pack dolls, they still look the same, they still act the same. I'm just curious.

sixgun

08-17-2004, 07:59 PM

What do you mean? As far as I know, there are no Zone issues... I still get in-game like I always have, as does everyone I know, and from the looks of the regulars you always see around all the time. Nothing as changed.

Besides, the Zone and the Game Servers are two different things, and therefore the Zone has nothing to do with the monthly update. You're talking apples and oranges here.

You obviously have NO clue on what your talking about. YOU have to get ZONE FILES from the zone, WHICH btw is NOT working because of a scripting error. So before you shoot off with your loose lips and broken fingers take a look in the tech section of these forums and get informed. There are a ton of people who have the same issue as I do. I've played now for some 4 yrs and have never ran into any problems until now. So you see, the zone and Turbine work hand in hand when it comes to the game (for now) you dont get in game IF you cant pass the zone. So stick your apples and oranges where the sun dont shine, research before you make a statement.

FmrSentFlatfoot

08-18-2004, 12:22 AM

You obviously have NO clue on what your talking about. YOU have to get ZONE FILES from the zone, WHICH btw is NOT working because of a scripting error. So before you shoot off with your loose lips and broken fingers take a look in the tech section of these forums and get informed. There are a ton of people who have the same issue as I do. I've played now for some 4 yrs and have never ran into any problems until now. So you see, the zone and Turbine work hand in hand when it comes to the game (for now) you dont get in game IF you cant pass the zone. So stick your apples and oranges where the sun dont shine, research before you make a statement.

Yes, well you see... your original post stated you were upset with the patch, and while it is true that you need the zone to log onto a server (for now), this still has no bearing on the patch. The patch has to do with the game, and the zone to server problems have to do with connection. Two distinctly different bowls of fruit, hence the term Apples and Oranges.

Sorry that you're having problems... but that doesn't give you the right to cut people down like you do, because while you think you're right, you're really still wrong in how you see the situation. I think you need a valium... take three and calm down.

Okay, I took your word for it "there are a ton of people".... this is what I found in the technical section:

Thread: I can't get past the download bar = 5 replies (consisting of Luncheon VN and yourself)
Thread: New patch won't download = 5 replies (nothing much there that's any diff from the above thread.

Summary: A ton of people does not = 3.

Obviously the problem is with your computer. Likely a virus you haven't discovered yet, that's preventing the "patch" from addressing certain memory locations.

Bloodbow_HG

08-18-2004, 12:15 PM

Hi, I am posting so late becaue I have been having soooo much fun this patch! I love all the new trophies/ war paint/ subways/thanking stones. Keep up the great work! I am going back now to have some more fun!!!

Herne

08-18-2004, 01:14 PM

A+ For this patch.

Why:

1) No rollback, no server down time.
2) No horrible mistakes/overlooks - a few oops.
3) CONTENT! CONTENT! CONTENT!
4) Did the Bleeergh quests, that was a blast. I did all of them from the simplest to the last, got to the V. Islands and loved the dungeon designs.
5)Loved being able to get all my level 6 item spells w/out researching them. Big grin on that, now to be able to actually cast them!
6) Won't do aerlinthe this month - waiting for the spawn fix.
7) I got a Pack Idol - yeah as i gave away all my original pack idols when i signed off 3 years ago. Its nicely guarding my house.
8) Still need to do a few more things from this patch and still catching up on other quest items.

Question: the Palanqual's Living weapons, the drop rate for the Volkama totem seems too low: 4 people were hunting shamans and elder shamans for days and found only one.

thanks!

Herne

D-K

08-18-2004, 05:56 PM

lol, 10 pages about pack dolls :)

Unbelievable

oh and, good patch..thanks

samsus

08-18-2004, 08:10 PM

I'm not overlooking that, Tyndall. I am one of the people who plays this way. I've got a mule or two overburdened with the most random junk you can possibly imagine... a full set of pack dolls, bizarre and useless (to me) quest weapons, I think I have an original Dagger of Tikola in there somewhere. Never did manage to get my hands on a Gertarh's Dagger, sadly.

The difference I think is that I am happy with my collection whether or not anyone else has similar -- or even the exact same! -- items.

This is lesson that I learned from Magic: the Gathering. I had a really good collection of Antiquities, Arabian Nights, and Legends cards. I was really proud of the collection, and the fact that I had these cool cards that you couldn't find anymore.

Then WoTC released Chronicles, reprinting many of my exclusive cards. I was pretty upset... until I realized that what I was really proud of wasn't the cards themselves, but the experience I had collecting them. Each card in that set of mine had a story, whether I found it in some tiny games store outside Schenectady NY or traded two Shivan Dragons for it in a trade that any non-collector would think was utterly daft.

Since then I've learned to be proud of my actions and not my possessions. Possessions are fleeting, my history is written in stone.

So this is where I'm coming from on this issue.

give me a break ibn, first of all they were not the same cards. they had different borders and not tourney legal. I think its funny that everything you base the same type of thing as reintroducing pack dolls is the fact that all those items were changed in some fashion. all your pre "junk" on your mules is prolly different then the post versions besides the pack dolls. as for someone enjoying the experience of collecting items, yes thats true, but whats to show for it if you cant have pride in the fact it was hard to obtain and now its not. you then took the experience out of obtaining these items by reintroducing them. so you've hurt the people who use them as currency, youve hurt the people who have collected them for pride and collectability, and have hurt the people who love the experience of collecting hard to get items (whatever that means but you said it yourself ibn).

its not that hard to change them just a little. or are you too busy working on the "awesome" expansion. heh.

sixgun

08-19-2004, 07:34 AM

Yes, well you see... your original post stated you were upset with the patch, and while it is true that you need the zone to log onto a server (for now), this still has no bearing on the patch. The patch has to do with the game, and the zone to server problems have to do with connection. Two distinctly different bowls of fruit, hence the term Apples and Oranges.

Sorry that you're having problems... but that doesn't give you the right to cut people down like you do, because while you think you're right, you're really still wrong in how you see the situation. I think you need a valium... take three and calm down.

Okay, I took your word for it "there are a ton of people".... this is what I found in the technical section:

Thread: I can't get past the download bar = 5 replies (consisting of Luncheon VN and yourself)
Thread: New patch won't download = 5 replies (nothing much there that's any diff from the above thread.

Summary: A ton of people does not = 3.

Obviously the problem is with your computer. Likely a virus you haven't discovered yet, that's preventing the "patch" from addressing certain memory locations.

Again, in order to get the patch ones needs updated ZONE files FIRST. And there are more than 3 people who fell into this bracket. The posts are here and on the VN boards and a few others that I have seen. The problem does not exsist on my system, but is a known bug on MSN's part and turbine is aware of it. Apparently you didnt read further enough to comtemplate the full grasp of things. But I am certainly glad you can count to 3, beyond that must be a chore.

FmrSentFlatfoot

08-19-2004, 10:10 AM

Again, in order to get the patch ones needs updated ZONE files FIRST. And there are more than 3 people who fell into this bracket. The posts are here and on the VN boards and a few others that I have seen. The problem does not exsist on my system, but is a known bug on MSN's part and turbine is aware of it. Apparently you didnt read further enough to comtemplate the full grasp of things. But I am certainly glad you can count to 3, beyond that must be a chore.

If I were you, I'd go read the rules to this forum again, because all you seem to enjoy doing is casting personal insults at people. That kind of attitude often ends up in a ban situation. If that's what would turn you on, then by all means please continue the flaming.

EDIT: Nevermind... it's not worth my effort to say what I was going to. You'd just come back with another insult, and then I'd be forced to report you.

Bhodi Amashi

08-20-2004, 04:42 PM

I never saw any worth in pack dolls. In fact, I remember when they first came out. I think I got a couple drudges, and a lugian. I sat them on the ground watched for a few seconds then left them on the ground.

It is written, "One man's junk is another man's treasure."

Neku

08-21-2004, 12:07 AM

I liked this patch very much. Lots to do, something for low and mid lvl, and a way to get a pack doll! ;) Good work Dev's.

I also look forward to the x-pac, but then I'm not the sky is falling type :rolleyes: . I'm just here to have fun. :) :) :)

Chip Ali

08-21-2004, 11:06 AM

I valued the old pack dolls as a reparation and thank-you to the players from Turbine.
I wish the new pack dolls were not identical so that I could choose whether or not to value them as well. Unfortunately, any pack dolls I come across in the future I will have to assume to be the spoils of a gambler.

Hekla

08-23-2004, 02:39 AM

I enjoy this patch,

lots of things to do,
the war paint is really cool :)

the graphic of the new monsters are nice,

I juts find the new al of the canscent matekar robe a bit low, cause it is hard to have, and it is not very useful with the new value,

Thxs and keep doing such a good job

Tesuji Aji

08-23-2004, 12:23 PM

Uh If I can interrupt the trade goods theory and application debate I would like some clarification on the %11 Items

Orien stated they were working as designed? I put up 7's, Take off all my gear, check my stats, I put on a +11%, my skill drops by 2 points?!?

Is that realy the way it was desgned? On purpose? What am I missing?

Tesuji Aji

BTW I love the look of the hat from teh book quest.. If it had any AL I would dump my Kub in a heart beat.

Darkerknight_sc

08-27-2004, 01:36 AM

I would like to comment on the proposed cap on gromnie teeth rewards for the October patch.

First, let me say I was MORE than thrilled when I saw in last patch new types of teeth with even more ability for lvling a tradesmule.

While the teeth are able to used to "farm" exp there are some pts that I think need to be addressed. The first is that a TRUE tradesmule has more skills than JUST alchemy, cooking, and fletching - such as lockpick, healing, tinkerings. Just because the exp is cycled out of the three skills does not mean the exp isn't spent to further tradesmules.

Next the time investment needed to "farm" the exp is quite large. First there is the fact of running the sellback gem quest every 2 weeks with a mule (not DIFFICULT but still it takes time). Nest, is the time to gather the teeth, while some are not to difficult to get others take HOURS to get a set of three and I do mean HOURS. I spent about 3 hours getting a single Sable tooth and there were other that were looking at the same time. The exp while getting the teeth the exp is MINIMAL at best. So while the amount of exp is quite large for the mule, the trade off for that experience is hours of non-exp gain hunting with other chars. By the time to factor in all the time to collect and prepare the exp gained isn't much more than one could get hunting a high exp yield area, it's just put into a different character. Also, the exp does NOT pass-up so there is no problem with MASSSSS exp being created through pass-up which would IMO make the process worth far too much.

In closing, I know there are characters that are not tradesmules that farm the exp but I think they are in the minority and they are really just trading the hours of exp hunting for the teeth for the few minutes it takes to turn them in, but the over all exp yield is very close to the same. Please don't hurt the majority who use the teeth as the only viable way to lvl a TRUE tradesmule because of a few who take advantage of it.

This all assumes (by lack of statement of it) that by placing a cap on the teeth reward you do not intend to replace it with quests for higher lvl trademules who wish to advance their other skills as well.

Thanks for your time, I hope my response makes sense and at least makes you take some time to think about the change before you make it.