Ros
01-23-2004, 07:08 AM
This is probably my last attempt. I've played for nearly 5 years, and have grown disappointed at the short-sited narrow scope of most of the "Balances" thrown in for PVP.
I've always thought the "Yin and Yang approach" to Balance was essential. I feel if Turbine would have approached PVP and their Monster Rebalancing the same way - you could have saved a lot of time, and hassle. Going back to repair the "actual " problems underneath all of the "band-aid" fixes will probably cost more resources now, then before - but these are the issues as they remain.
Yin and Yang approach to ALL Magic.
For every Life Protection, there is a corresponding Vuln. (Armor & Imperil, Blade Protection & Blade Vuln.)
For every Item Bane there is a Lure. (But Lures can ONLY be cast on shields) The History is such that the Strength of banes was an issue in the past. It forced Turbine to raise damages, Make special weapons to counter the effect of banes- of which I would argue, you are still struggling with. When you capped the banes at 2.0, it made sense to some - but virtually anything you had gained from that towards balance, you ruined when Tinkering came into play. 450-500AL suits began to drive that point home. If there were a way to cast a Lure on someone, using the Item-debuff mechanic, where it would randomly select a piece of armor to Debuff - Hollows, Deadly Hollows etc ad naseum would never have been nescessary. If we could Lure an opponents worn armor, perhaps AR-imbued weapons are enough to contest the high AL Tinker. This would seem appropriate.
Balancing by DoT is a farse, until the Playing field is relatively level. You must keep in mind that different form of attacks are affected by different things - which actually complicate your lives while trying to consider ways to balance the game. For instance - War Magic is not affected by Banes, or Shields, or Worn armor - and yet, Archers, and Melee attacks are always diminished by these factors. If the above-mentioned Armor Luring was possible - It means that an Archer or Melee would have to land at least 3-4 Successful Debuffs to be able to maximize their damage potential. (Imperil, Vuln, Brittlemail, Lure) If banes worked against War as Well - a Mage would still only have to cast a Vuln + and Lure. (Rend wands would make this a Single Debuff, a Lure.) The sheer damage potential of a Mage is left unchecked, and unaffected by anything outside Lifemagic buffs. If Item magic used the same mechanic as Lifemagic with the few stipulations (Random pieces of worn armor/undergarments are affected - it gives a reason to use our High/Med/Low attack.) Example: You successfully cast Brittlemail on Amuli Coat! --begins swinging/shooting at Medium. etc.
Blood Drinker's polar opposite is Blood Loather. It works on ALL Melee Weapons, and ALL Range Weapons, except for Wands. In fact, while a Mage has the potential to make an Archer's or Melee's weapons practically useless, there is no spell in-kind that one can use against a Mage. a Mana Conversion Bonus debuff is NOT enough in these regards. There is no Damage damper for War beyond Lifemagic. These exceptions totally screw up any DoT comparisons you could try to make Class-to-class. There is one other contributer to this though - so we'll move on.
Shields don't deflect, nor do they help against War. Ultimately they proved too effective against Archers, as well - Giving Turbine a reason to Make yet another Single-Use weapon that ignores them. That should HIGHLIGHT that issue, and their performance explains the imbalance better than I can - So I'll propose a reasonable Solution: Remove the "Shield Level" from shields in favor of Modifiers for all of the games available Defenses. These benefits would serve several purposes in balance. As a Melee's skillset tends to require more emphasis on Physical stats, and alot less on Mental stats - its unlikely that Melee's will ever be able to have high enough Magic Defense to resist Equal level mages. In the current system - its even far more likely that a Melee will suffer death to a Mage half his/her level as a result of this emphasis. a Shield with a Magic Defense of Modifier would help make up from that impropriety - just as a Missile Defense Modifier would spurn more Melee's to take Missile Defense to be more viable against Archers. Conversely, this also gives a more realistic feel to shields - as they would help to resist, and or shield you from War, AND Arrows. (Archers would just turn up their accuracy as they do against anyone with decent Missile Def)
On behalf of Archers and Mages, Arrows and War are still easy to dodge. Arcs helped some. Streaks helped some, but due to their lower damage and HIGHER Mana consumption, they aren't very practical. If a spell is going to do half the Damage of its corresponding Bolt/Arc, it shouldn't cost that much Mana. If you wish to Tax something for making it faster, Tax Stamina. Volleys and Blasts are practically useless in PVP as they are slow enough to by out-ran. The Ideal solution would be to make each bolt in a flurry do the same damage as its corresponding Warbolt, while using the same Mana/Bolt consumption. (So a 7 Volley would shoot 5 bolts - each one doing 7 spell damage, while costing 7 spell mana x5.) It creates more of a Mana Sink - and more incentive to use the spell. Speeding them up would help a great deal, but the same could be said for any spell to some degree. A Proposed solution could be: To make an Imbue for Wands or a Tinker that will raise the Velocity of spells cast through it, and perhaps add a similar mechanic (tinker/imbue) for bows to increase their velocity in-kind.
If all of the above were done. Animation-breaking exploits wouldn't seem as bad as they are. Of course, with one exception. The only Animation-breaking Exploit that serves as a real hinderance is the Jump-spin, that has the tendancy to send a melee off charging in a random direction, or completely "locked up" until recieving "You have charged too far!" message. If a Melee can't stick, they are ineffective. Fast-cast, and other exploits might actually not have the impact they once had on a level-playing field, and would be less of a priority.
Stress factor only exists for those with Healing trained. Unfortunately there is no mechanism like it that will link Mage-Health, and their ability to cast. High level mages are able to "Full-Heal" with a Stam to Health 2-3 in .5 Seconds, without any such handicap. It should seem fair that the less hit points a Mage has the more likely he is to fizzle ANY level of spell. They don't have to switch from cast-mode to heal, anyway.
--Decisions in the past have lead to several band-aid fixes that never addressed these issues directly, and never really "solved" any of them. Raising the damages on Melee weapons was essential to counter the Tink'd gear, and inability to Lure an opponents worn armor. This band-aid would make the entire player base wince when and if it came off. Further, Hollow weapons, and other Single-use weapons would serve no more purpose. (They weren't really appropriate to begin with - it betrays your entire magic-system.) Turbine will NEVER be able to address Balance without going to the ROOT of the problem. (See the above - Yin and Yang commentary.)
--Monsters would need to be altered, and rebalanced again to add to their spellbooks appropriate Lures, and whatnot - which would change several of the Dynamics invovled with adding New creatures, and content. (And Perhaps take the Super-Mighty playerbase down a notch or two.) This NEEDS to be done, anyway. PVM is getting waaay too easy again for some.
These problems have existed in AC since its release. We've advocated this same approach for FIVE years now (4.5.. whateva) and all we've ever been given is Artifacts or Items that merely "Mask" the issues - yet have not fixed them. It shouldn't be any wonder why DT's standard gear consists of Weeping and/or Hollow - as nothing else works quite right. Being able to Lure worn armor, compounded with an Armor Rend Tinker - would bring Loot-gen'd, tinkered gear into Mainstream PVP (which is as it should be)
If you've gotten this far - I'd challenge you to do the above before considering any more changes to Game-play mechanics or "Animation Exploits" so we can see where we're at. Hopefully with the above changes, it will level the playing-field enough that they might begin to take a lower priority. (The ability to dodge, and move, and bob and weave is what gives AC its Gameplay, as many here have already suggested. To remove some of these may be nesessary - but to remove them all would be disaster for Gameplay. I would Target Jump-spin's breaking of Sticky-Melee, and perhaps leave it at that. The others would be less pronounced if the other classes had other Warmagic-damage-dampers. (Such as altered Bane Mechanics.)
These are longstanding issues, and they lay at the heart of our problems. Do forgive the cynicism and angst that may emerge from PVP players- but try to understand the Frustrations have been mounting, and festering for a long long time now.
I beg you for your patience and careful consideration of these issues. Those of us who haven't given up on you yet- are on our last thread of hope here.
Band-aid fixes are our History... They simply will not do anymore. In fact, I'd argue that they are only making your jobs harder- as you will now have to sift through these mechanics to find what all effects them now and how.
We know it won't be easy. We know you probably couldn't do it all in a month. But its becoming exceedingly important that you actually deal with them directly - rather than passing us just another band-aid. Another one will simply not do.
Thanks for reading.
Ros
I've always thought the "Yin and Yang approach" to Balance was essential. I feel if Turbine would have approached PVP and their Monster Rebalancing the same way - you could have saved a lot of time, and hassle. Going back to repair the "actual " problems underneath all of the "band-aid" fixes will probably cost more resources now, then before - but these are the issues as they remain.
Yin and Yang approach to ALL Magic.
For every Life Protection, there is a corresponding Vuln. (Armor & Imperil, Blade Protection & Blade Vuln.)
For every Item Bane there is a Lure. (But Lures can ONLY be cast on shields) The History is such that the Strength of banes was an issue in the past. It forced Turbine to raise damages, Make special weapons to counter the effect of banes- of which I would argue, you are still struggling with. When you capped the banes at 2.0, it made sense to some - but virtually anything you had gained from that towards balance, you ruined when Tinkering came into play. 450-500AL suits began to drive that point home. If there were a way to cast a Lure on someone, using the Item-debuff mechanic, where it would randomly select a piece of armor to Debuff - Hollows, Deadly Hollows etc ad naseum would never have been nescessary. If we could Lure an opponents worn armor, perhaps AR-imbued weapons are enough to contest the high AL Tinker. This would seem appropriate.
Balancing by DoT is a farse, until the Playing field is relatively level. You must keep in mind that different form of attacks are affected by different things - which actually complicate your lives while trying to consider ways to balance the game. For instance - War Magic is not affected by Banes, or Shields, or Worn armor - and yet, Archers, and Melee attacks are always diminished by these factors. If the above-mentioned Armor Luring was possible - It means that an Archer or Melee would have to land at least 3-4 Successful Debuffs to be able to maximize their damage potential. (Imperil, Vuln, Brittlemail, Lure) If banes worked against War as Well - a Mage would still only have to cast a Vuln + and Lure. (Rend wands would make this a Single Debuff, a Lure.) The sheer damage potential of a Mage is left unchecked, and unaffected by anything outside Lifemagic buffs. If Item magic used the same mechanic as Lifemagic with the few stipulations (Random pieces of worn armor/undergarments are affected - it gives a reason to use our High/Med/Low attack.) Example: You successfully cast Brittlemail on Amuli Coat! --begins swinging/shooting at Medium. etc.
Blood Drinker's polar opposite is Blood Loather. It works on ALL Melee Weapons, and ALL Range Weapons, except for Wands. In fact, while a Mage has the potential to make an Archer's or Melee's weapons practically useless, there is no spell in-kind that one can use against a Mage. a Mana Conversion Bonus debuff is NOT enough in these regards. There is no Damage damper for War beyond Lifemagic. These exceptions totally screw up any DoT comparisons you could try to make Class-to-class. There is one other contributer to this though - so we'll move on.
Shields don't deflect, nor do they help against War. Ultimately they proved too effective against Archers, as well - Giving Turbine a reason to Make yet another Single-Use weapon that ignores them. That should HIGHLIGHT that issue, and their performance explains the imbalance better than I can - So I'll propose a reasonable Solution: Remove the "Shield Level" from shields in favor of Modifiers for all of the games available Defenses. These benefits would serve several purposes in balance. As a Melee's skillset tends to require more emphasis on Physical stats, and alot less on Mental stats - its unlikely that Melee's will ever be able to have high enough Magic Defense to resist Equal level mages. In the current system - its even far more likely that a Melee will suffer death to a Mage half his/her level as a result of this emphasis. a Shield with a Magic Defense of Modifier would help make up from that impropriety - just as a Missile Defense Modifier would spurn more Melee's to take Missile Defense to be more viable against Archers. Conversely, this also gives a more realistic feel to shields - as they would help to resist, and or shield you from War, AND Arrows. (Archers would just turn up their accuracy as they do against anyone with decent Missile Def)
On behalf of Archers and Mages, Arrows and War are still easy to dodge. Arcs helped some. Streaks helped some, but due to their lower damage and HIGHER Mana consumption, they aren't very practical. If a spell is going to do half the Damage of its corresponding Bolt/Arc, it shouldn't cost that much Mana. If you wish to Tax something for making it faster, Tax Stamina. Volleys and Blasts are practically useless in PVP as they are slow enough to by out-ran. The Ideal solution would be to make each bolt in a flurry do the same damage as its corresponding Warbolt, while using the same Mana/Bolt consumption. (So a 7 Volley would shoot 5 bolts - each one doing 7 spell damage, while costing 7 spell mana x5.) It creates more of a Mana Sink - and more incentive to use the spell. Speeding them up would help a great deal, but the same could be said for any spell to some degree. A Proposed solution could be: To make an Imbue for Wands or a Tinker that will raise the Velocity of spells cast through it, and perhaps add a similar mechanic (tinker/imbue) for bows to increase their velocity in-kind.
If all of the above were done. Animation-breaking exploits wouldn't seem as bad as they are. Of course, with one exception. The only Animation-breaking Exploit that serves as a real hinderance is the Jump-spin, that has the tendancy to send a melee off charging in a random direction, or completely "locked up" until recieving "You have charged too far!" message. If a Melee can't stick, they are ineffective. Fast-cast, and other exploits might actually not have the impact they once had on a level-playing field, and would be less of a priority.
Stress factor only exists for those with Healing trained. Unfortunately there is no mechanism like it that will link Mage-Health, and their ability to cast. High level mages are able to "Full-Heal" with a Stam to Health 2-3 in .5 Seconds, without any such handicap. It should seem fair that the less hit points a Mage has the more likely he is to fizzle ANY level of spell. They don't have to switch from cast-mode to heal, anyway.
--Decisions in the past have lead to several band-aid fixes that never addressed these issues directly, and never really "solved" any of them. Raising the damages on Melee weapons was essential to counter the Tink'd gear, and inability to Lure an opponents worn armor. This band-aid would make the entire player base wince when and if it came off. Further, Hollow weapons, and other Single-use weapons would serve no more purpose. (They weren't really appropriate to begin with - it betrays your entire magic-system.) Turbine will NEVER be able to address Balance without going to the ROOT of the problem. (See the above - Yin and Yang commentary.)
--Monsters would need to be altered, and rebalanced again to add to their spellbooks appropriate Lures, and whatnot - which would change several of the Dynamics invovled with adding New creatures, and content. (And Perhaps take the Super-Mighty playerbase down a notch or two.) This NEEDS to be done, anyway. PVM is getting waaay too easy again for some.
These problems have existed in AC since its release. We've advocated this same approach for FIVE years now (4.5.. whateva) and all we've ever been given is Artifacts or Items that merely "Mask" the issues - yet have not fixed them. It shouldn't be any wonder why DT's standard gear consists of Weeping and/or Hollow - as nothing else works quite right. Being able to Lure worn armor, compounded with an Armor Rend Tinker - would bring Loot-gen'd, tinkered gear into Mainstream PVP (which is as it should be)
If you've gotten this far - I'd challenge you to do the above before considering any more changes to Game-play mechanics or "Animation Exploits" so we can see where we're at. Hopefully with the above changes, it will level the playing-field enough that they might begin to take a lower priority. (The ability to dodge, and move, and bob and weave is what gives AC its Gameplay, as many here have already suggested. To remove some of these may be nesessary - but to remove them all would be disaster for Gameplay. I would Target Jump-spin's breaking of Sticky-Melee, and perhaps leave it at that. The others would be less pronounced if the other classes had other Warmagic-damage-dampers. (Such as altered Bane Mechanics.)
These are longstanding issues, and they lay at the heart of our problems. Do forgive the cynicism and angst that may emerge from PVP players- but try to understand the Frustrations have been mounting, and festering for a long long time now.
I beg you for your patience and careful consideration of these issues. Those of us who haven't given up on you yet- are on our last thread of hope here.
Band-aid fixes are our History... They simply will not do anymore. In fact, I'd argue that they are only making your jobs harder- as you will now have to sift through these mechanics to find what all effects them now and how.
We know it won't be easy. We know you probably couldn't do it all in a month. But its becoming exceedingly important that you actually deal with them directly - rather than passing us just another band-aid. Another one will simply not do.
Thanks for reading.
Ros