Also on the topic of PK melee

[Ibn]

What's more important, DoT or crits?

For example, consider a 20-40 sword (sword A) and a 5-50 sword (sword B). A does more consistent damage, with an average hit of 30. B has an average hit of 22, but does 20 points more damage on a crit.

Which is better for PvP?

Does this vary from melee class to melee class? (For example, maybe DoT is more important for UA, but crit is more important for sword?)

I have my own theories based on what I've read here but I'd like to see more feedback on your opinions.

[Sizlunt DT]

That's honestly a really tough question for me to answer Ibn, Im sure for others it isn't so tough. I think DoT would be more important for me, until that inevetable time I got hit 4 crits in a row. I know this is a melee oriented question, but from a mage standpoint crits are more important to me both giving and receiving.

[Paraduck]

Interesting question. I'd say crits, because the ability to do a large amount of damage in one shot is really what kills your opponent. It's (relatively) easy to heal from normal hits, assuming you aren't being ganked.

In that case, I'd go with Sword B as those extra twenty points can (and do, IMO) mean a lot. This is also something I use when deciding what weapon I should use. If I'm not sure of an opponents AL, I try my Hollow and Weeping. Whichever does a greater crit I stick with (or go with my Phantom if I'm critting for less than 100.)

Edit: This is the way many melees will kill mages with high AL armor and Stam to Health/Heal 7. It's the crits in a row that overcome their healing potential, along with dodging/healing to be sure you don't get killed in the process.

[shobo-dt]

Ibn,

As an archer I expect crits to hurt a bunch since it is harder to land and think that generally a crit after a couple of normal shots should leave an opponent running and/or healing.


As a UA I remember when phantoms first came out that I didn't mind the shots for 0-2 inbetween shots for 40-110. Generally a crit wound up high would almost put an opponent away.

[Yung Kin]

For those melee templates with most of the skill credits spent on attack (SWORD, etc), crits are more important.

For those melee templates with the least amount (credits) spent on attack (dagger), average damage values are more important.

This is based on the theory that someone who specializes in something with alot of skill credits will spend more XP on that skill (and this receive a better benefit from critting more often). Rather than an equal level template who has alot more skills (missileD spec'd, magicD spec'd).

In retrospect, you could say that a highly offensive geared character will consider crits more important than a highly defensive geared character who will prefer better average damage value.

Simply put, the more highly specialized attacker will get better DoT with a max damage high variance weapon (due to more crit hits), than a lower skill attacker with the same weapon.

So the lower skill would prefer the higher average (base) damage to compensate.

[Sprawl]

I fight as dagger.

While DoT is important, I must land a crit to win. Absolutely no way to win with basic hits unless my opponent is completely healing inept.

Sprawl

[_b0o]

multiple crits are pretty much the only way i can kill anyone, normal damage cant compete against stamina to hp or heal self 7.. and crits can only barley beat em out if the person tries to throw a war in there too....


its pretty much a roll of the dice if im gonna kill someone or not... i have to attack... hope for crits and wait till i have to dodge a war... if i get no crits, i have to repeat... if i get a crit i have to keep going and eat a war or 2 and hope i get a few more crits... if after 2nd war i dont get in more crits time to run and heal... then start over...

its pretty much a game of waiting for the right combination of crits... not much skill involved except timing it and knowing if ull survive 1 more war before u have to heal


edit: basically to answer your question, crits are more important in melee PvP... but i wish they were NOT... would be nice to have some un-crit weapon that maybe has good DoT for pk... cuz leaving it to getting crits or not is like gambling with a slot machine at a casino, u win, or u lose... no skill involved... it should be more like poker... where theres *some* skill involved

[Virindi Clown]

DoT, hands down. Crits are important, and almost required to win, as many of you have noted. However, you say you need big hits to win, and a crit is a big one, but it happens only 10% of the time.

10 damage will get you a bigger crit, but there is already proof that that is a poor choice in the game. It is FAR better to tinker an AR weapon with more granite than iron, instead of a bunch of iron so that your crit goes up just a few points.

You fail to see that, with a 5-50 damage weapon, you can crit for 100, and then hit for 5 damage on your next hit.

That kind of thinking makes absolutely no sense to me.

The 20-40 weaponwill do only a little less damage on a full power crit, and overall, MUCH greater the rest of the time, because you are NOT critting about 90% of the time.

I believe that one of the biggest problems with melee weeping weapons is that their variance is MUCH worse than that of a war spell or arrow used with a weeping wand or bow, which causes inconsistent damage, and lower DoT. This was not a problem in the days of AR weapons, because 6 tinkers of granite would make you hit for nearly the same damage every time.

[Some Guy on DT]

yep DoT owns crits .... the melee crits are to random and to less to really relie on em ....

[Paraduck]

To those who say DoT is more important: Are you saying it's possible to kill a mage with 400 health without getting at least two crits in a row (if not within a couple of swings of each other?) IMO, it's extremely hard to outdo the amount they can heal for without high (and multiple) crits such as these if your opponent has any common sense. I agree that DoT *is* important to a degree, but the base (non-crit) hits don't matter as much as they're not the ones that are going to be outdoing higher levels of Stam to Health and the like.

[Virindi Clown]

You only need one crit when the weapons do enough damage. That's how it was for me with pre-nerf weepings. Two crits is far too unlikely, and should never have to be relied upon. I think it is alright if you basically have to rely on making a full power crit to get someone who is properly equipped and of equal level range to a point where you can finish them off, but no more than that.

If the weapons do not have enough DoT for a reasonable chance at getting someone to a killable point with one full power crit, then you will NEVER kill them without getting a bunch of crits really close together. That is VERY unlikely to happen.

[Paraduck]

You only need one crit when the weapons do enough damage. That's how it was for me with pre-nerf weepings.

Are we talking about sword? It was a bit different pre-nerf. 20 points can make a big difference.

Two crits is far too unlikely, and should never have to be relied upon. I think it is alright if you basically have to rely on making a full power crit to get someone who is properly equipped and of equal level range to a point where you can finish them off, but no more than that. If the weapons do not have enough DoT for a reasonable chance at getting someone to a killable point with one full power crit, then you will NEVER kill them without getting a bunch of crits really close together. That is VERY unlikely to happen.

I agree that multiple crits shouldn't have to be relied upon because their chances are very low, but many of the fights against people with 400 HP really rely on the following:

1) Multiple crits in a row.
2) A stupid mistake. (S2M instead of S2H, letting buffs wear, getting cocky and not healing, etc.)

I've fought single opponents for upwards of 30 minutes because of this. However, they mostly turn and run now because they realize it's pointless for them. Now, I don't think we should be one shotting people, but it boils down to this at the higher levels of play against competent players.

[Smooth Striker]

Heres whats more important. Mages are too overpowered and melees DO NOT do enough damage to take them down. Youd think they would be a bit equal but a mage should NOT do 5x the damage i can do it 3 seconds. If a mage can hit me for 160 with aegis out then i should be able to do HALF of that in the time they can do it to me right?

No, its about 2-3 hits on a good mage by the time they are shooting me again

IMPROVE MELEE DAMAGE DO NOT NERF IT

[Paraduck]

Smooth Striker, what melee class are you? If you're using a higher end melee class, I have a feeling your numbers are a bit exaggerated.

[_b0o]

ehhhhh anyone saying DoT is more important in PvP...

with phantom sword i hit for about 25-45 on full power... most ppl i fight have 350+ hp

average that down to 35 damage per hit that means id need 10 hits without the healing, at all, to kill them... and usually get 2-3 in inbetween a war...

only a complete retard, or a 2 year old, or someone who LDs mid fight will not stop and heal after 5 or so hits from a melee....


only way i get kills is to get someone to around half or so hp with normal hits then go in and hope for crits to get rid of the last 180ish HP....(i crit for 97 with phantom usually)... if i dont get crits in *everyone* except retards heal before they are down to 120ish hp... and then they are back at full from that s2h...

if i kill them then i kill them, if i dont kill them i have to start over... and its just a game of getting in crits or them casting the wrong spell.


any mage who knows what hes doing *cannot* die to a melee except for crits/lag/failed to cast

[Frank The Knife]

I work off my crits. I won't go in to finish a mage/archer or other melee if I dont see the crits.

I hate to say it but you need the balance of both a good crit and good DOT. I think if you don't have one without the other you just arent gonna get the job done.

You need the good dot to wear a person down for that big crit. Then its off to the races to eat wars or dont heal to hope your DOT/Crit faster than your opponents StH/HS VII of Elixirs/Kit.

In the end its a game of patience.

[Virindi Clown]

I work off my crits. I won't go in to finish a mage/archer or other melee if I dont see the crits.

I hate to say it but you need the balance of both a good crit and good DOT. I think if you don't have one without the other you just arent gonna get the job done.


Exactly. Pre-nerf melee weepings had almost a perfectly ideal balance of this, but they were nerfed to having both poor DoT AND crits, making them almost useless in actually killing a person in a one on one.

Weepings, particularly, could still use a variance decrease, though. The UA gets the best variance possible of a loot UA, yet some other weapons, particularly sword, have the LOWEST possible for loot weapons of their type. Sword is the most expensive melee skill there is! What is the deal? Weepings are no longer the ideal weapon in a group fight, so I don't think it would be a big deal to decrease atleast the sword, axe, mace, and spear's variances.

[Silifi Of Death]

Crits. The unreliability is what prevents melees from becoming too powerful. The gap is pretty small atm (with the exception of tank mages), I think you could easily close it by giving weepings a small CB mod.

[Dj_Viper]

I would say both are fairly important. As a sword character, it is necessary to have crits in order to kill someone. Even if I crit every single time, it would still be very difficult to kill a mage, and that's with over 400 sword skill/high strength. The only way to kill a mage is to crit because of the excessive damage they do.

If damage over time is better against a mage, who cares? You can't hit them more than once inbetween spells, so it wouldn't matter anyways. The ONLY way to win is to crit.

As far as melee vs. melee is concerned, it's been such a long time since it has been balanced I couldn't really tell you. Whoever is UA wins now, and before whoever was Sword won....usually. Ua did mage a much better template, but UA is meant more for all around. They can spec magic d and melee d, which makes them viable against mages and melees.

Basically, crits are a MUST against mages, and DoT doesn't matter. Against melees, it's basically whoever crits the most wins. Although, DoT would be extremely important in melee vs. melee combat.

[ChildoftheKoRn]

DoT, hands down. Crits are important, and almost required to win, as many of you have noted. However, you say you need big hits to win, and a crit is a big one, but it happens only 10% of the time.

10 damage will get you a bigger crit, but there is already proof that that is a poor choice in the game. It is FAR better to tinker an AR weapon with more granite than iron, instead of a bunch of iron so that your crit goes up just a few points.

You fail to see that, with a 5-50 damage weapon, you can crit for 100, and then hit for 5 damage on your next hit.

That kind of thinking makes absolutely no sense to me.

The 20-40 weaponwill do only a little less damage on a full power crit, and overall, MUCH greater the rest of the time, because you are NOT critting about 90% of the time.

I believe that one of the biggest problems with melee weeping weapons is that their variance is MUCH worse than that of a war spell or arrow used with a weeping wand or bow, which causes inconsistent damage, and lower DoT. This was not a problem in the days of AR weapons, because 6 tinkers of granite would make you hit for nearly the same damage every time.

Was suprised it took VC to say it. VC for president

[Virindi Clown]

Btw, you guys do realize that crits figure in to DoT? They go together, no matter what. Crits make DoT, and that is why DoT is more important.

Another example:

Was UA the best when the phantom crit for a few points on power more than sword, but had like 99% variance? No. Sword beat it into the ground, because it had 50% variance. That's pretty darned close to the same thing as the 5-50 weapon being compared to the 20-40 as better.

[Dj_Viper]

Btw, you guys do realize that crits figure in to DoT? They go together, no matter what. Crits make DoT, and that is why DoT is more important.

Another example:

Was UA the best when the phantom crit for a few points on power more than sword, but had like 99% variance? No. Sword beat it into the ground, because it had 50% variance. That's pretty darned close to the same thing as the 5-50 weapon being compared to the 20-40 as better.

I agree.

[Haus der Liebe]

1 on 1 .. crit

2 on 1 .. dot


that's true for melee/archer ..

mages it's all about the crit

[Final_Destiny]

What's more important, DoT or crits?

For example, consider a 20-40 sword (sword A) and a 5-50 sword (sword B). A does more consistent damage, with an average hit of 30. B has an average hit of 22, but does 20 points more damage on a crit.

Which is better for PvP?

Does this vary from melee class to melee class? (For example, maybe DoT is more important for UA, but crit is more important for sword?)

I have my own theories based on what I've read here but I'd like to see more feedback on your opinions.

Well... I dunno how u calculate it... but a 30 hit on full swing is ********, its deferent in pvp than pvm, it the mages move an inch you consupe extra 5 - 4 seconds to hit him in this time hes gonna hit u with war which is 500% more damage than the crap we are hitting for.

Could you please explain to me how you calculate the damage according to its skill cridits???????

If a skill is using 57% of the other skill cridits it should land 57% of the other skill damage not an average of 30 to be compared with 150 average damage.

I really need some indications about your calculation bases which is surely wrong.. (I can help with it if you want, am serious in this)

[Black Dominion]

I would have to say that having a more higher average damage would be better then a one shot crit..If you have a higher base damage and get a crit, that would make the crit so much sweeter.

[Some Guy on DT]

you know whats really funny, all you guys here saying dot isnt important are also the same people who say the phantom ua is overpowered ..... to bad its the only weapon that actually lives from its high dot ...

[Dj_Viper]

"all you guys". I hope you're not referring to me. Because if you are you didn't read my full post. In melee vs melee, DoT is much better. Also, UA's hit crit probably 2x faster than sword because of how fast they swing. 3 out of 10 hits are crits when they're fighting me, or that's usually how it turns out.

And would you get off the phantom UA topic already? Good god. The devs said it's overpowered, ua characters said it's overpowered, IT IS OVERPOWERED. Test it yourself, and accept the fact. It costs 6 SKILL CREDITS, I'm not even going to get in to this. UA should be the 3rd weakest melee in the game, period. If not weaker, because they can do all 7 elemental damages (blunt included). No other melee class can do all 7.

[Blau]

It's all about crits.

If you were to do too much damage all the time, people would just run away from you. With the hope of an uber crit, you can actually kill people that would otherwise just leave.

For example, if I'm on an archer using a hollow bow and I'm fighting someone in GSC and a Knorr Helm (typical hollow bait), I will do some damage to them (assuming they haven't trained MissileD), but they'll fight. Every once in a while, however, I'll hit them for a lot. If I'm good, I can stay alive for a while and I can hold out for a couple crits in a row. When that happens, they'll die if I can tag them a 3rd time (non-crit). This is merely an illustration about how crits keep the fighting alive and give hope to non-mages.

What I'm trying to say is that crits introduce a level of random risk that make fights less boring and more "on the edge of your seat". It's like a knock-out punch in boxing or a 60 yard game-winning field goal in American Football.

IMHO Crippling Blow on maxed tinkered weapons should be the best PvP weapons in the game (when you get crits) - above any no-drop quest weapon. It takes a lot of resources and patience to acquire these perfect weapons, and you have choices as to how to tink them (i.e. Crippling Blow and then what? Iron? Granite? Pine? Velvet? Brass?). It means you can acquire multiple weapons suited for various occasions:

- Maxed MeleeD (15% bonus tinked 9x with Brass + 1 rending)
- Maxed Attack (15% attack bonus tinked with Velvet (?) + 1 rending)
- Maxed Damage (tinked 9x with Granite/Iron)

Plus you can get majors on these weapons (i.e. Major Sword Aptitude for example).

We need this. :)

[Yung Kin]

I'm doing some calculations (based on maxed melee skill)...but I have one variable I can't answer.

My unknown variable is:
What's the normal unimbued critical strike percentage at max skill?
Also need multiplier for Crushing Blow...

My other variables (that need checking) are:
Crippling Blow Critical Damage multiplier - 8x
Normal Critical Damage multiplier - 2x
Imbued Critical Strike percentage - 50% (for max skill)
Specal Property Biting Strike percentage - 25% (max skill)


Note: The Crushing Blow Biting Strike aren't as important as Crippling Blow and Critical strike (both imbued and unimbued) percentages for my calculations since Turbine has already stated they can adjust those per weapon, so a comparison really isn't going to be a part of this thread.

My formula to date is:
DoT = Da Ht - Da Ht Cp + Ht Cp Dm Cm

More to come, once I get my variables set.

[Paraduck]

Yung, I beleive the maxed chance for a critical hit on a weapon without a special property affecting this is 10%.

To the best of my knowledge, your other variables are correct.

[Smooth Striker]

Currently i play UA on DT. Many people do not realize that fastcasting and dragging makes a melee hit once or twice if lucky, You have to follow the target and get the hits off. Since te mage is moving around, you move with him while he slide casts in a circle, and you dont get many hits. People who are stating that UA is overpowered are mages most likely, because now they have an opponent that has a chance of killing them if they are bad. Granted im not maxed out and i do know high level UAs with phantom hit hard, but is it not on the same scale as a mage who can optionally have 3 heals and now they are training melee and using melee wands?

A maxed out strength hits for about maybe 60 or 70 on crits? UA is fast i know but a mage can cast a spell and do 150 damage with my magic D spec and aegis. Not everyone has the option to spec magic D so numbers go up to 220+, which i get hit for sometimes. It is outragous that they can hit for that much in such a short time where if im lucky at my level with crits i can do about 60. Not to metion that streaks now can be shot fast as hell and do about 30-50 with my shield out, giving me NO time to hit and maybe 6 or 7 shots and im dead

[Jida]

My only concern Ibn is that you balance out melees against mages and therefore ruin archers.

Archers do not have StH, quick spells, tons of damage output, good animations, etc.

Not to say that melees do not need help, it is just that if you make them able to take mages they will dominate archers.

IMO crits and DoT are both old ways of thinking in regards of melees in PvP.

By raising one or the other or both you are always going to be tweaking it and never truly getting it right. This is mainly due to UA having the skill bonus (which acts like a built in BD) and the fact that higher cost skills lose out if UA stays the same.

Where I believe the change needs to be made is in tweaking a number of factors.

1) Crit rate - the crit rate should be tied to the power bar. At full speed the crit rate should be 1% while at full power make it 25%. This makes the time to wind up a full power swing worthwhile and the crits actually part of tactics.

2) DoT - change all of the melee weapons to the best possible variance of the loot weapons.

3) Power bar - change it for the PvP weapons only. 25% on full speed and 200% on full power.

4) Damage on the PvP weapons - raise and lower this accordingly based upon the factors above.

The reason for this is that you cannot just look at the weapons DoT/Crits and think you can balance them out.

By changing the power bar (for example) you make the 'ganking/sticky' issue go down. Full speed is like a streak, it finishes off a low health target. Now if you wind up though (where you do not go sticky over long ranges) then your output is increased.

You also increase the crits at this range. This means that 1/4th the time you will crit.

By then tweaking the base damage of the weapons you can achieve a nice balance and remove many of the other issues with the melee weapons.

Do I think that UA needs +50% more damage on crits in its present form? Nope. Do I think that you can lower UA 50% and therefore lower its full speed yet keep the full power crits the same? Yep.

In this way the weapons can be given value unique to each other.

For my sword character I could choose to do 25% damage output or 200% output based upon who I am fighting. If I am swinging up for fullpower attacks my target can squirrel off without me sticking. If I am on full speed though I will stick but my damage will be lower.

[Yung Kin]

Ibn, using my new found formula...which I'll include below...I gathered these numbers for Sword A and Sword B. The results are interesting.

The damage represented takes into account some key factors. They relate the amount of possible damage that the weapon can give out if the Sword Swinger is maxed out in Sword. It leaves out magical damage, and some other things. For the purposes of this example a Mage is considered to be "lethal", if he can get 2 level 7 war spells and a Stam to Health out before the Sword can deal enough damage to kill the mage. Thus I set an artificial limit of 6 strikes dealt out by the Melee, before the mage casts the STH.

Sword A (20-40) hits for 210 total damage.
Sword B (5-50) hits for 179 total damage.
Sword A with Critical Strike Imbue (20-40) hits for 330 total damage.
Sword B with Critical Strike Imbue (5-50) hits for 366 total damage.
Sword A with Crippling Blow Imbue (20-40) hits for 354 total damage.
Sword B with Crippling Blow Imbue (5-50) hits for 359 total damage.

So, in this scenario as you presented it, Ibn, Sword B unimbued is the worst damage dealer. But imbue Sword B with CS, and it hits for best damage overall.

Now, to go on with your scenario, would a different skill/weapon perhaps lead to a different perspective? That would depend on the weapon. Skill has pretty much leveled since people have been able to max them. So for the purposes of this argument, only the weapon itself has any bearing since the templates are extreme and they _Can_ max out their skill.

The formula that I used for this example is:
Total Damage = Average Damage * total Hits - Average Damage * total Hits * Critical Percentage + total Hits * Critical Percentage * Max Damage * Critical Multiplier.

Please give us another set of weapons, perhaps Katar A and Katar B to work with.

[Silifi Of Death]

Btw, you guys do realize that crits figure in to DoT? They go together, no matter what. Crits make DoT, and that is why DoT is more important.

Another example:

Was UA the best when the phantom crit for a few points on power more than sword, but had like 99% variance? No. Sword beat it into the ground, because it had 50% variance. That's pretty darned close to the same thing as the 5-50 weapon being compared to the 20-40 as better.


I know crits are apart of DoT, but I think melees should be relying solely on their ability to get a crit. It's easy to kill a mage if you crit a lot. I want to rely more on luck than a consistent hit rate, otherwise melees become far too easy to use in PvP.

What I'm talking about is a weapon that doesn't just get a couple of extra points like in your example. Mine would be more of a 5-90 vs a 20-40. Horrible variance, but if you crit you will win. Having a consistent ability to hit hard is bad for PvP in general.

If I'm fighting a mage, I currently have to dodge every single war I can in order to win and hope to get a triple crit, (happens pretty reliably for me, actually). If I could consistently hit for whatever, I would win just by running up and tanking to war. Crits are what makes it fun, because I can't just rely on knowing I'm going to hit for 40 each time. I have to dodge every war and wait until I get those magical two words. Keeps the surprise in there, makes each fight a challenge.

I hope you understand what I'm saying here. I agree with you that DoT is more important if I'm just trying to slaughter someone, but it's not what's best for the longevity of PK, and it's not what's going to make PvP fun in general.

[Jida]

Fights with melees would be far more fun if they never crit at all and instead had higher reliable DoT.

So instead of 10's to 20's on speed with crits of 40 you just always hit for 25-30 and never did a crit.

Higher DoT overall will be a better tool than 10% crits winning you the fight.

When I fight mages on my melee I have to wait till they are replenishing before I can really attack.

During this time I can get in a few swings while they are trying to recover. If all of my hits were nice high averages I could take one down enough in a reliable manner in order to either force them to get defensive or try to run off.

A hit in the single digits is far more detrimental to a fight than waiting on crits.

Hitting for 25-30 on full speed (as in my example above0 gives you the damage output of 100-120 in 4 swings while with the norm you are doing 40-80 with the possibilty of getting a few crits in.

My fights now are won with crits, there is no doubt about that, I am just saying there are better ways to make melees viable in PK.

[Yung Kin]

What I'm talking about is a weapon that doesn't just get a couple of extra points like in your example. Mine would be more of a 5-90 vs a 20-40. Horrible variance, but if you crit you will win. Having a consistent ability to hit hard is bad for PvP in general.


9-90 Sword is actually an average damage of 49.5 Hands down, this weapon is almost half again better than a 20-40 Sword w/average of 30. Even without any crits brought in. So let's take a 9-90 Sword and compare it to a 45-55 Sword. Both of them have the same average damage. And like you said, it's not about average damage, it's about crits.

Normal crit with "your" Sword D (9-90) is 180.
Normal crit with Sword C (45-55) is 110.

Apply the formula to the two swords...

Sword C (45-55) hits for 336 points.
Sword D (9-90) hits for 378 points.
Sword C (45-55) imbued with Critical Strike hits for 480 points.
Sword D (9-90) imbued with Critical Strike hits for 690 points.
Sword C (45-55) imbued with Crippling Blow hits for 514 points.
Sword D (9-90) imbued with Crippling Blow hits for 702 points.

So, here we have a more extreme example of why average damage and 'great' (IE small) variance counts for little when the weapon is imbued with Critical strike.

This lends me to believe that those who imbue max damage weapons with Critical Strike ought to tink only with Iron. For the simple reason that at max sword skill, the 50% chance overrides the 'higher' average damage theory that most people use when closing the gap with granite.

Hmmm, let's plug it in. Assume a Sword E at 20-40 is imbued and tinked with granite (3) and iron (6)...another Sword F (20-40) is imbued and tinked with iron only.

Critical Strike Sword E (31-46) hits for 391 points.
Critical Strike Sword F (25-49) hits for 408 points.

This is an almost 20 point increase in a mere 6 strikes (See my earlier post about how these numbers were generated). This is average damage over time with both weapons. The unimbued versions of these two swords, the granite and iron tinked sword wins average damage over time (as shown below).

Sword E (31-46) hits for 234 points.
Sword F (25-49) hits for 228 points.

Something to think about when you buy/tink CS swords...

[Virindi Clown]

What I'm talking about is a weapon that doesn't just get a couple of extra points like in your example. Mine would be more of a 5-90 vs a 20-40. Horrible variance, but if you crit you will win. Having a consistent ability to hit hard is bad for PvP in general.


That's not what Ibn asked, though. I would probably prefer a 5-90 weapon to a 20-40, as well. But you know what? The 5-90 likely has higher DoT than the 20-40 lol.

Having the consistent ability to hit HARD is bad. However, that is not what this is about. It is about DoT, which, although related to consistency, is not quite the same deal. If you do have high enough DoT, you do not have a consistent chance, because then you must rely 100% on repeated crits, and it is unfair.

As I said, it is fine to leave winning a fight against a mage to the luck of landing ONE full power crit at the right time, but that is not leaving the ENTIRE FIGHT to luck.

Without good DoT, you are leaving the entire fight to luck. That's how it is now. Melees have bad DoT, so you have to get lucky and get several crits, otherwise, it could literally be impossible to kill some people.

[Silifi Of Death]

Well, I suppose having a high variance weapon like that would be good DoT. But I still think that criticals should be the bread and butter of Melee/Archer PvP. As I said before, if I can rely on my DoT alone I will be able to simply coast through anything. That's not what we want, is it? We want balance, not for melees to be on top.

That's why I think that weepings should get a crippling blow effect. Hell, you could even nerf the weapon's variance if you did that. That would strike perfect balance. There's a very thin line between melees just tanking everything and just sucking to no end. If you can always do consistent damage you know exactly what to expect and you can time everything perfectly: as long as you know how to dodge you will automatically win against a mage.

What I'm talking about isn't low powered crits that do 58 damage against tinked armor. What I'm talking about is having one crit turn the fight, something that does 100-200 damage full-power, something that makes a good difference. This is basically what mages do: Continually attack and wait for something to land. Just replace "land" with crit and remember that every attack will do damage.

[Virindi Clown]

Well, I thought pre-nerf weepings worked along those lines.

You didn't know what you were going to get, because a full power crit for 140 could be followed by a full power normal hit for 35.

The crit would certainly turn the fight to your favor, though, and it was capable of around such damage on the best armor, with clothes under it.

[Cezium]

I just fought a level 234 sword toon on my 151 mage.

I'm in al400+ armor on the body and 330 on the feet. He puts on a lightning ward so I switch to fire. The fight goes back and forth for at least 10 minutes before he starts inepting.

At this point as a mage I have very little chance to land on him with bolts or arcs. In Ayan's town area he could run around the central building or tent as he inepted war and attributes on me. He comes back into combat resisting a good amount of spells. I run out of mana and start elixiring as it regains itself. Get back on my feet in about 10 potions. When he went for the second or third round of nerfs I got lucky enough to land 2 wars on him. Landing a second war is very difficult when your opponent is running around a corner.

I was down to minimal health many times during the fight.

He was using acid weeping if that matters.

[_b0o]

I just fought a level 234 sword toon on my 151 mage.

I'm in al400+ armor on the body and 330 on the feet. He puts on a lightning ward so I switch to fire. The fight goes back and forth for at least 10 minutes before he starts inepting.

At this point as a mage I have very little chance to land on him with bolts or arcs. In Ayan's town area he could run around the central building or tent as he inepted war and attributes on me. He comes back into combat resisting a good amount of spells. I run out of mana and start elixiring as it regains itself. Get back on my feet in about 10 potions. When he went for the second or third round of nerfs I got lucky enough to land 2 wars on him. Landing a second war is very difficult when your opponent is running around a corner.

I was down to minimal health many times during the fight.

He was using acid weeping if that matters.


lol ramuh on FF im guessing

he blows chunks, hes all template... same temp as me but just 80 lvls higher... atleast i admit im all template when i fight but he acts like he has skill... ps ive killed him with his temp 80 lvls lower =P

use thoses trees at ayan, trees >Ramuh =P

[Dj_Viper]

I just fought a level 234 sword toon on my 151 mage.

I'm in al400+ armor on the body and 330 on the feet. He puts on a lightning ward so I switch to fire. The fight goes back and forth for at least 10 minutes before he starts inepting.

At this point as a mage I have very little chance to land on him with bolts or arcs. In Ayan's town area he could run around the central building or tent as he inepted war and attributes on me. He comes back into combat resisting a good amount of spells. I run out of mana and start elixiring as it regains itself. Get back on my feet in about 10 potions. When he went for the second or third round of nerfs I got lucky enough to land 2 wars on him. Landing a second war is very difficult when your opponent is running around a corner.

I was down to minimal health many times during the fight.

He was using acid weeping if that matters.

I guess that just goes to show that mages can kill people 83 levels above them. How many billion is that? Just wondering.

[Cezium]

because the relevent skill points of umm his magic d which is either close to mine or lower? because a character 15 levels higher than me can't cap sword?

Way to be an idiot about the skill system.

[Jida]

It is a ton of EXP more and if I am reading the inference here correctly the melee was a mage killer temp.

It also shows that a melee with a ton more EXP, debuffs, hiding and the best weapon he can get his hands on will still be killed by a mage.

[Tussin]

consistency takes all period.

a few % chance to crit let alone for a little tad more damage isn't worth it.

maybe pvm crit can be a nice thing

if you're concerned about a class that you have trouble with, get another person to assist you rather then complain here

[ChildoftheKoRn]

My only concern Ibn is that you balance out melees against mages and therefore ruin archers.



Dont leave melees out of it, melees will have a harder time seeing how the dot/crit is so high with archers now and such high melee d most archers have which seem to be more than most melee's. They need to also balance out archers while their at this making it so that melees can actually fight archers while archers have enough dot/crit to kill a mage. I AM STILL ON MY STANCE ON A 'MAGE SLAYER' ABILITY ON ALL WEAPONS. (mage slayer is like human slayer exept is based off the war magic of the mage you are fighting)

[Cezium]

My point was that a properly prepared melee can put up a fight against a mage.

[Abukkubuk]

i have to say that i really agree with the opinion, that says weeping should have CB, but CS will be bad, CB will balance the Melee VS mAges becasue all the tıme ı pray for a crıt, and when , crit for 100- (lv 162 sword) full speed, , pray for the second one:P its all about luck, but if i can able to land 150-200 a guy full tınked 400+al armor that wıll be really nıce, u know CB has a small chance to crıt. anyways my other opinion is 5-50 sword will be better because ın pvp all we do ıs pray for a crıt and ıf we crıt wıth a a 5-50 weapon we wıll hıt around 20 more but maybe it wont balance the pvp because of the lower shots around 5-6. so i think CB weepıng wıll be really nıce... thx for readın.

[Khael]

DoT is by far most important for a melee. Lets you keep pressure on the mage after you land a crit.

Before sword nerf in july, when you got a crit, the mage was under pressure, and the melee tactic was to keep hitting while the mage was trying to heal up and regain stam/mana.

The mage would then have to be carefull, because another crit might land anytime. Now after nerf, mages dont have any problem at all with sword melees (if they dont wear sucky newb armor) - they can easily outheal the sword damage, with plenty of time for regaining stam/mana, without ever being under pressure.

[Final_Destiny]

I'm doing some calculations (based on maxed melee skill)...but I have one variable I can't answer.

My unknown variable is:
What's the normal unimbued critical strike percentage at max skill?
Also need multiplier for Crushing Blow...

My other variables (that need checking) are:
Crippling Blow Critical Damage multiplier - 8x
Normal Critical Damage multiplier - 2x
Imbued Critical Strike percentage - 50% (for max skill)
Specal Property Biting Strike percentage - 25% (max skill)


Note: The Crushing Blow Biting Strike aren't as important as Crippling Blow and Critical strike (both imbued and unimbued) percentages for my calculations since Turbine has already stated they can adjust those per weapon, so a comparison really isn't going to be a part of this thread.

My formula to date is:
DoT = Da Ht - Da Ht Cp + Ht Cp Dm Cm

More to come, once I get my variables set.

I liked your post.. ;) .. we can work the formulas together i think since most of the devs failed in mathmatics (just a joke Ibn.. :) ).. :cool:

[Frank The Knife]

Mistell wrong board

[Yung Kin]

i have to say that i really agree with the opinion, that says weeping should have CB, but CS will be bad, CB will balance the Melee VS mAges becasue all the tıme ı pray for a crıt, and when , crit for 100- (lv 162 sword) full speed, , pray for the second one:P its all about luck, but if i can able to land 150-200 a guy full tınked 400+al armor that wıll be really nıce, u know CB has a small chance to crıt. anyways my other opinion is 5-50 sword will be better because ın pvp all we do ıs pray for a crıt and ıf we crıt wıth a a 5-50 weapon we wıll hıt around 20 more but maybe it wont balance the pvp because of the lower shots around 5-6. so i think CB weepıng wıll be really nıce... thx for readın.

Read my calculation post (earlier in this thread) on the effects of CS and CB for the 5-50 sword. You might be interested.

[ChildoftheKoRn]

My point was that a properly prepared melee can put up a fight against a mage.

Can put up a fight yes, but the problem is they most likely wont win unless the mage lags really bad. In a 1v1 scenerio of course

[KF_AC]

Does this vary from melee class to melee class? (For example, maybe DoT is more important for UA, but crit is more important for sword?)

Yes Ibn, all slow weapons work off crits, it's even true for archers vs missile D opponents. The critical hit is what they look for to commit and take chances.
The fast weapons like UA on the other hand, require steady hits. Criticals would be important if the UAer is on a slow connection or lagging, then he'd fight like a Sword user.

[Silifi Of Death]

My point was that a properly prepared melee can put up a fight against a mage.


Correction: A properly macroed melee can put up a fight against a mage.

[Ibn]

Thanks for all the feedback here...

Just to give you an idea of the thinking I'm working off of... if we increase Weeping DoT *and* crits to their May level, we'll be back to folks complaining loudly about getting wiped out with a few lucky shots.

But if we increase DoT but *don't* increase crits, by adjusting variance instead of damage or slayer mod, melees will have more consistent damage.

If your weapon had slightly lower crit damage, but considerably higher average damage, would that be a good thing or a bad thing?

If you saw that the max damage of your weapon had been decreased but the minimum damage had gone up, would that feel like a buff or a nerf? And I'm saying not from a strictly mathematical standpoint... how would it FEEL?

[Paraduck]

It would feel like a nerf, and I think that many others would definitely look at the same way. What's the first thing (and perhaps the deciding factor) when people look at melee weapons? The maximum damage. Honestly, people like higher numbers.

Then with testing, people who actually bother to try it out instead of complaining first will see the damage difference. But personally, I'd prefer higher crits.

In either case, how about running some possible numbers by us either before or in the LttP?

[Some Guy on DT]

Thanks for all the feedback here...

Just to give you an idea of the thinking I'm working off of... if we increase Weeping DoT *and* crits to their May level, we'll be back to folks complaining loudly about getting wiped out with a few lucky shots.

But if we increase DoT but *don't* increase crits, by adjusting variance instead of damage or slayer mod, melees will have more consistent damage.

If your weapon had slightly lower crit damage, but considerably higher average damage, would that be a good thing or a bad thing?

If you saw that the max damage of your weapon had been decreased but the minimum damage had gone up, would that feel like a buff or a nerf? And I'm saying not from a strictly mathematical standpoint... how would it FEEL?



sorry ibn but who complaining ? only nodrop mages or people wearing a sucky helmet ... thats their own god damn fault .... now its even harder to kill a mage bec all he has to do is take out his melee def wand ..... and heal up if hes in trouble, i can show you 10 + loggs where you see the mage

1. jumpspinning away
2. taking out his melee wand
3. evading every single hit and healing up
4. inepting the crap out of melees bec they dare to take a fair game and lure the wands

..... those melee wands and the weeping nerf totally ruined it, it would be nice to actually have one of them gone for a start

[Khael]

I agree totally with Some Guy. MeleeD wands are a really big problem now. But you already said you are working on that, so I hope that is true.

--

Now about the crit vs dot damage, hmmmmm I know I just said dot was most important. But I have been re-thinking, maybe I was wrong.

My speculations are something in the lines of:

A big downside from increasing DoT damage is, that it will encourage ganks. Many melees going for the same target will become alot more effective.

Crits are more important in 1vs1 situations. The surprise/luck factor is what makes it good. It even lets 2 melees fight eachother, because with a lucky crit at the right time you can get the other guy below his healing limit.

--

So I am going to have to turn 180 degrees, and say that increasing crit damage or/and upping the crit rate will be a better solution ;\

But ok returning damage to pre-june-nerf would actually be the best. I never understood why you changed it, I didnt see alot people complaining. Not on this forum, and I cant think where else they would be?

In may, mages were still superiour to melees, and with the new higher damage streaks that would be even more true now.

[Frank The Knife]

we'll be back to folks complaining loudly about getting wiped out with a few lucky shots.

These were guys who went no drop or went out pking in JUNK armor which was AL250 and under.

Stop listening to whiners and look at whats happening in the game. Watch how fights go and look at the numbers. Today a mage in AL300+ which has a little pk experience is near impossible to kill by a melee.

Stop the insanity.

Ask mages who were properly prepared to pk and they will tell you when weeping weapons did the most damage they still had no fear of a solo melee.

Anything but a +14% return of the melee weapons slayer mod will be looked at as a direct nerf again to melees.

[Virindi Clown]

Although I think 50% variance is sometimes too high, I don't think really low variance on a melee weapon is a good idea. For example, if current weepings were given 25% variance, you would just hit on speed all the time, because there wouldn't be a big enough damage boost on full power for a crit to change much.

As it was said, that would make ganks a nightmare, and isn't that what you were trying to avoid?

That's why you hit on full power with a strong weapon. The modifier from higher power on the higher damage, and then doubled with a crit, makes full power significantly better than full speed.

If you just gave swords the best variance they can have in loot weapons, and then upped the damage a good deal (like to where max str, 400 base sword would do 130 on full power crits against al 400ish base tinkered armor with buffed clothes), I think you would reach a happy medium.

[Silifi Of Death]

Thanks for all the feedback here...

Just to give you an idea of the thinking I'm working off of... if we increase Weeping DoT *and* crits to their May level, we'll be back to folks complaining loudly about getting wiped out with a few lucky shots.

But if we increase DoT but *don't* increase crits, by adjusting variance instead of damage or slayer mod, melees will have more consistent damage.

If your weapon had slightly lower crit damage, but considerably higher average damage, would that be a good thing or a bad thing?

If you saw that the max damage of your weapon had been decreased but the minimum damage had gone up, would that feel like a buff or a nerf? And I'm saying not from a strictly mathematical standpoint... how would it FEEL?

Consitent damage is good for melees, bad for the game. Melees need a buff, but a variance buff will increase the effectiveness of two things: Gank Squads and War Tanks (maximum magic d, full wards, 350+ health). It won't help the lower level grief templates. Criticals are the one way to buff melees without overpowering them. We should be doing 25-30 per hit full power, just as we are now, but the crits should be 130 damage fullpower, with a sword, against tinked armor for both.

It will feel like a nerf if the maximum damage goes down. Either due to ignorance or mathematical reasoning, most people will see it as a bad thing.

[Darid]

Its all your playing style.

I like to PK with my UA and do damage on low, this is easier for me than hitting fullpower and waiting for a crit.

Some people like big beefy crits, I might hit him for low, for about the same amount of damage but in two hits he could do the same amount of damage that I would deal in ten.

For instance UA on speed is like this currently,
13-17-42-42-15-17-etc.

Weeping sword on fullpower would do more damage,
60--.73--.127--.60

You hit about 2 1/2x on low with UA speed for every fullpower sword hit.

Whats better for killing a mage?

Probaly the weeping sword crits although I don't prefer it enough mages complained and if anyone remembers when you were considering this I stated that this would just bring balance issues.

Ua Phantom was fine now your going to nerf it further, to us the players this is a big hassle having to wait almost a month to untrain whatever weapon could actually deal the damage we need to be competitive.

Its not unbalanced, its almost even 1v1 with a mage, maxed out its deadly but then I should be able to kill a level 126 mage with no problem if I have his entire xp put into just one of my skills.

Just like I wouldnt expect to resist a mage equal to my level, they should ph34r my melee skill too.

Whatever you do to melees realize this:

No matter what people are going to gank non stop.

No matter what people are going to complain.

Do not however take anyones word on these boards, if someone says hey I got hit for 200 on my warded gsc wtf then go to your test server, and test if that is even possible.

Some of the time it is, if your wearing warded gsc with plate gaunts and you don't have the particular ward for the element I am hitting for you will probaly get hit twice for normal hits then you will probaly get hit for 200.

All I am asking is plz, test this ****, a 120 crit is reasonable on tinkered al 400+ armor, and yes people have macroed and yes it is probaly unfair that someone new to dt will probaly never be able to compete with the big dogs for a long time.

That is no reason to nerf melee, reduce weapon damage, change healing, reduce overall xp, make war hit for less, make war hit harder etc.

[minimafia]

I bet ibn will test it on al 400 armor, yet forget to underbane and therefor think the damage is fine.

[Dj_Viper]

Ibn, I havn't red any posts after yours so sorry if I repeat. This is what I think:

Damage over time is great for melee vs. melee or PvM. But the ONLY way to beat a mage is for high crits. mybe raise a little of both, but DEFINATELY do not take crits down. I could care less if I hit for a little less on the low end. Right now I can crit a mage 4-5 times in a row and they can stand there and live, without healing. Meanwhile, mages are critting me for 262 (with my aegis out).

So in a nutshell, DoT wouldn't be as good as raising the crit. Raising the crit would increase DoT overall though. UA is so good with DoT because of how fast it swings. Sword on the other hand cannot swing that fast, not to mention the lag that usually occurs and that draws the melee in.

Overall, if you lower the crit, you WILL be nerfing melee. Notice the two main complaints consist of this:

1. UA's out damage the rest of the melee classes.

2. Melee's cannot deal enough damage to mages.

Both of these statements are true. Lowering the crits on weapons would make statement number two 10x harder.

Also, a level 73 mage killed my level 134 sword today because I was lagged out. Why is it that a level 73 melee could never kill a level 134? Something needs to be done about that as well. These low level mages can beat anyone, but no other class is like that.

[Yung Kin]

A better way to consistently view actual Average Damage or Damage over Time would be good for melees to have.

I also think that melees will see lower perceived averages as a nerf, even if the crits go up by the same amount as the difference in the pre-nerf and post-nerf averages. People get conditioned by what they see alot of.

So with that in mind, I'd like to figure out a way to tweak the weeping weapons in such a way, that people feel it's melee love instead of a nerf. However, the only question that comes to mind is: Are the weapons current DoT where they should stay? If so, then tweaks can go in. If not, then you have to try and hide a nerf, or hide the love, in such a way that it's not unbalancing.

I'll do a comparison of the weapons I can find and post possible solutions/tweaks to the above.

Answers will be along the lines of:
Keep current DoT, and raise current perceived damage.
Lower current DoT, but keep current perceived damage the same.
Raise current DoT, and keep current perceived damage the same.

[Ryakki]

High crits have a positive psychological impact, making a person feel as if they're doing more overall damage, while, in my experience, more consistant damage is what gets more kills. More consistant damage also makes fights more skill-based and less luck-based, which I prefer... although, from a developer standpoint, I definately see how luck-based fights keep people playing who might give up on pk otherwise.

Basicly, do what you feel is best. Either way has concequences and rewards and some will be happy, some will be pissed.

[Silifi Of Death]

High crits have a positive psychological impact, making a person feel as if they're doing more overall damage, while, in my experience, more consistant damage is what gets more kills. More consistant damage also makes fights more skill-based and less luck-based, which I prefer... although, from a developer standpoint, I definately see how luck-based fights keep people playing who might give up on pk otherwise.

Basicly, do what you feel is best. Either way has concequences and rewards and some will be happy, some will be pissed.


How does consistent damage make it skill based? And by skill, do you mean the little number, or do you mean a player's skill?

There is nothing that a melee player can do offensively to change his fight. There is nothing (other than jumpspin) any player can do to defend against a melee attack. The ways to do any of this are through skills.

If melee damage is consistent, what will you do? Melees will wait until they can tank two wars and simply stand there waiting for the enemy to be dead. That's what any good consistent damage will do, no arguements there. A melee will not bother to dodge because he KNOWS what will happen. He KNOWS that his damage will do a certain amount of damage in a certain amount of time, so he can come to rely on that simple fact. So why would he dodge once he can effectively tank two wars?

Crits, on the other-hand, are luck-based. You never know when the critical will hit. So you can't just know ahead of time how the fight will turn out. You have to make sure you're staying on the defensive, because if that crit doesn't land and you're at 3 HP, you'll be dead. So therefor you have to go in, swing at them, run out when you hear the words, come back in, repeat until you crit.

That's what mages do right now. That's EXACTLY what they do. They shoot spells until one lands. Why should melees be any different?

[Dj_Viper]

Both need slight tweaking. Their both pretty pathetic as it is now.

[Virindi Clown]

Wtf are people making this so complicated and difficult to understand...it is REALLY starting to make me mad.

The pre-nerf weepings were basically PERFECT. Their slayer mod needs to be put back, and should have been MONTHS ago. There was no reason to change it in the first place!

It is that simple. End of story.

Really, why was it changed? What was the reason? Is there even a real, legitimate one? We still have not been given a straight answer on why all melees were completely nerfed and then, COMPLETELY ignored for quite some time.

I cannot even begin to understand the mentality that must have been involved to bring about the nerf in the first place, from a gameplay OR business standpoint. Honestly, which is better? Shut up the few idiots complaining about getting killed by the BEST weapon while they are wearing some of the WORST, most newbish armor, as it should be, or PISS OFF TONS OF PEOPLE BY NERFING THEIR CHARACTERS COMPLETELY?

[Frank The Knife]

The only reason I could ever find as to way they nerfed the melee weeping weapons so bad was because of the whiners who were pking in the no drop junk.

Knorr Helm / GSx / Sunstone Gaunts / Walking boots.

I think we both asked for the data as to why sword was nerfed. We have yet to recieve a valid answer.

[Final_Destiny]

Thanks for all the feedback here...

Just to give you an idea of the thinking I'm working off of... if we increase Weeping DoT *and* crits to their May level, we'll be back to folks complaining loudly about getting wiped out with a few lucky shots.

But if we increase DoT but *don't* increase crits, by adjusting variance instead of damage or slayer mod, melees will have more consistent damage.

If your weapon had slightly lower crit damage, but considerably higher average damage, would that be a good thing or a bad thing?

If you saw that the max damage of your weapon had been decreased but the minimum damage had gone up, would that feel like a buff or a nerf? And I'm saying not from a strictly mathematical standpoint... how would it FEEL?

I dunno how u look at it, but now sword hit for 18 - 32 on the black mire armor, its not only need a better varience, it needs a higher minimum and max damage not only a better verience, if u increase the lower damage u'll end-up hitting consistant 25 or so.... melees need to go close to hit and the probability that a war gonna hit u is 50% with fast cast that everybody using, how can u compare a 150 damage to 25, sword need a real boost up.. not some worthless verience decrease.

Thats how i look at it:

Weeping sword should land a min of 40 and a max of 60 on best armors with full power. put in mind that the boosted streaks can over power all the weapons now, i don't think that they gonna complain with all the DAMAGE boosts they receiving and all the nerfs other weapons receiving.

I think that turbine looking into balancing the skills according to their skill cridits, then.. HOW COME A SKILL USING 57% of the other skill and landing only 20% OF ITS DAMAGE, I NEED AN EXPLAIN FOR THIS???????????????????

[Ryakki]

The reason tighter varience makes a a fight more skill based is, in fact, because a melee has a much better idea of how much damage they'll be dealing in a certain time period. They can plan their actions more reliably. If a win is based solely on crits, well, you do your best and hope to get lucky.

I prefer the former method. Some prefer the latter.

There are effective arguements for both.


Either way, Weeping damage needs to go up for every last melee class. So does Phantom damage for every class but UA (which is spot on). Obviously you agree, so do it. Wether you do it with a strait damage increase, slayer increase, minor imbues, ect. doesn't matter as much as that it gets done.

[Silifi Of Death]

The reason tighter varience makes a a fight more skill based is, in fact, because a melee has a much better idea of how much damage they'll be dealing in a certain time period. They can plan their actions more reliably. If a win is based solely on crits, well, you do your best and hope to get lucky.

I prefer the former method. Some prefer the latter.

There are effective arguements for both.


Either way, Weeping damage needs to go up for every last melee class. So does Phantom damage for every class but UA (which is spot on). Obviously you agree, so do it. Wether you do it with a strait damage increase, slayer increase, minor imbues, ect. doesn't matter as much as that it gets done.

Plan your actions=Get your health to 320 and press a button=Win