Please allow non-Life characters a shot at solo PvP

[Yew Wan Sum]

Life magic seems to be the major prerequisite for PK. Without it, there is just no way to participate in non-group PvP, and no hope to defeat a fully baned person of any class.

My experience is as an archer(and mage), so I cannot talk about melee, but its completely obvious that if you can Imp and Vuln, you can nothing but join up with someone else who has to do it for you, or run around getting laughed at and ignored.

Hollow bow is the answer. Or it *should* be, but its utterly pathetic because it was designed in the era of AL190 armor being considered 'too powerful' and now people are wandering around in AL400+ that they can make extremely resistant to pierce.

You need to up the mod on the bow until it does the same or slightly MORE damage that a weeping does to a fully baned person in AL400 armor when they are imp'd and vulned. The weeping requires life, the hollow requires special arrows. The weeping has nice +d, the hollow does not. The weeping can fire any element, the hollow is restricted to one. The weeping ignores shields, the hollow does not. Therefore, the hollow should do the same or more damage as the weeping to a non-shield wearing target, which will keep it *less* powerful overall than weeping, but allow participation by archers who dont have Life. Mages should fear the hollow bow, melees should not if they dont use the aegis. That leads to a Archer owns Mage, Mage owns Melee, Melee owns Archer scenario, which is a good way to achieve balance. Each class has another which it can usually beat, and one which can usually beat them.


I suspect the same thing could be done to other hollow weapons, but I dont know how well they fare these days. I sure dont see them being used, though.

[Som|Blood]

or...you could train life magic


some skills are more pvp oriented than others...with skill sell back it only makes sense that you should sell back you deception and spec run or spec alchemy and train it...


^^^^edited...I'm being civil....

[Yew Wan Sum]

Spec Bow, Melee Def, Magic Def
Train Item, Missle, Fletch, Healing, Lockpick, Cooking and Item Tink.

Thats all the credits there are. Lockpick is essential for questing and sing hunting. Item tink is filler but lets me salvage at full rate in the field. Cooking gives me infinite mana and saves me from carrying elixers, otherwise, I would need mana c. No spec alchemy or run here.

Supposing I *did* want to make a PvP only template, I could get rid of lockpick, Cooking, and IT to take life. With no mana c, it wouldnt work very well and certainly would never land on a mage. In any case, if you hadn't noticed, *most* players don't PK full-time. There are servers besides DT, and the people who play there don't necessarily want to build their character around PvP, but would just like to be able to participate from time to time.

My whole point is that you shouldnt *have* to create a Life PvP template to be remotely capable in PvP anymore than you should *have* to have Life to be viable in PvM. They fixed the PvM problem, and now I want them to fix it for PvP. If you have suggestions or reasons contrary or supportive of the proposed implementation, then please present them. (*Appreciates and returns the favor of being nice*)

[MannyCalavera]

unspec magic defense, there's really not THAT big of difference, especially if you have it maxed. You could be Bow/Melee Defense and get life easily.

[Televangelist]

I'll be civil, because his original point was a civil question in need of a civil response. :)


You're dealing with a very small subset of situations where you've designed your character specifically *against* what you want to do.


You want to be a non-life archer who PvP's in exclusively 1vs1 situations.


You've then taken a skill-set completely diametrically opposed to what you want to do.


Some skills are group-oriented, some skills are solo-oriented. Life magic is a solo oriented skill -- in fact, in a group, you may never even use it once in combat.

You have two very simple options; play group PvP (Which most consider to be more fun anyways) or train life magic.


Neither of these options is incredibly hard to deal with.


Not to mention that anything changed in this regard would affect a very tiny number of people, and possibly have unforseen balance problems that would throw off fair group PvP for months.


Mountains, molehills, and all that.

<3,
Joe.

[Som|Blood]

My whole point is that you shouldnt *have* to create a Life PvP template to be remotely capable in PvP anymore than you should *have* to have Life to be viable in PvM. They fixed the PvM problem, and now I want them to fix it for PvP. If you have suggestions or reasons contrary or supportive of the proposed implementation, then please present them.


Well what you're saying is you didn't design your character to be the best possible pk? Why do you think you should be able to pk as well as the people who did?

[Tara Malkav]

Yew, I understand what you mean, but each skill has its own use. You had the choice of what skills you thought were and were not essential(you can even change them now). You said you had infinite mana because of your cooking skill, but with only item magic, is that really that important? Also, I'd have to agree with what most people said that magic defense doesn't need to be specialized. Though I will say that I enjoy missile defense on my archer. According to the template you play there will be advantages and disadvantages. Making life magic obsolete isn't really the answer.

[MomentofClarity]

Point is your char is gimped. Ungimp him and get life like every other pk out there. No one is going to feel pity for you and change because you dont want life magic. Lol. Get rid of one of your spec skills so you have enough points or get rid of that bs cooking.

[Tara Malkav]

Such a harsh forum over here. Should label it "The Friendly Pk Forum". =x

[Paraduck]

You mean Carebear forum?

[Tara Malkav]

Yes! ..and we can all just throw Poofy Snowballs at eachother.

[Yew Wan Sum]

I guess maybe, like I said, I thought that they could make a change which could do two things:

1) Improve Hollow weapons. Is this a bad thing? Or should weeping be the only choice?

2) Make Life magic optional for PvP just like they did with PvM.


I don't want to be a PK deity, but I'd like to be able to /pklite or hit an altar and have some fun. Right now, everything ends in a stalemate between non-life characters. I am skilled enough to dodge and weave and heal and stay alive, but am totally incapable of inflicting any meaningful damage, even at max speed. My character is a no-buff tank. The way it stands right now, you are all correct that it is NOT PK friendly. Is there anything wrong with it being capable of even limited PK? (By Limited, I mean when I show up and square off against someone, the opponent at least thinks 'hmm, whats the fastest way to kill this guy' rather than 'ROFL' followed by lots of emotes and the occasional heal before being ignored completely. I don't mind dying, but I would like the other person to at least think I have a remote chance before killing me.)

Is there some reason that I am not seeing that the hollow weapons should not be a viable option in PK(like they USED to be, before AL400 armor)?


If either of these two factors are not desirable or possible, so be it. Otherwise, why not? Is this resistance to change, Eliteism? Or is there some factor which makes this honestly not a good idea? The devs have already stated they are looking into buffing hollow weapons. If they do, will this be an outrage?


****Slightly off Topic****

When the ability to swap skills came out, I was vocally opposed to it. One of my key reasons is that future problems would be met with nothing but 'If you dont like it, swap your skills' rather than actually addressing the problem. The responses I have recieved so far tell me that my fears were well founded.




Thank you to those who kept it civil. It can be a difficult thing to do at times.

[Televangelist]

2) Make Life magic optional for PvP just like they did with PvM.


If you don't have life magic (and thus level 7's), I'll one-shot you.

Know why?

Because I'll dispell your buffs first. :)


Get life magic, get 7's, and problem solved.

[MomentofClarity]

Only got 2 choices:

1) Get life magic and become a beast
2) chose not to get life magic and be a weak piece of trash who will never amount to anything.

[Virindi Clown]

It does irritate me that I had to spec life magic on my melee instead of getting missile defense and item tinker so I can actually salvage stuff, but then again, archery problems were fixed up on both sides, that shouldn't matter so much ;)

[Tara Malkav]

"1) Improve Hollow weapons. Is this a bad thing? Or should weeping be the only choice?"

That I can definately agree with. I get sick of having to use a weeping weapon just to have a slight chance of killing someone. Though I have life magic, I also grow tired of the fact that it's an absolute must in Pk. It just gets annoying that people with al 400 armor can just slap on banes and take roughly no damage; expecially if you don't vuln them.

Like I said before, we shouldn't make life magic obsolete, but I think atleast making hollow weapons better couldn't hurt. It'd be nice to see something other than a weeping weapon being used. It would also be helpful to those who aren't capable of getting a weeping weapon yet. Maybe make hollow weapons buffable with armor rendering? =x That actually wouldn't be a horrible idea......

[MomentofClarity]

Hollow sucks due to new armor and tinkered armor. Weeping weapons own hollows because its human slayer, get one of those. Hollows are like soooooooo last year lol

[Tara Malkav]

So you upgrade them....... ^_~

[MomentofClarity]

Yeah lets upgrade them so they hit hard as a weeping sword through 600+ buffed al armor.

[Tara Malkav]

Well they are suppose to hit through the banes and I think they should be able to hit fairly hard. At the very least they should be able to compete with weeping weapons.

[MomentofClarity]

Tara, hollows ignore protects. Phantom ignores banes. Sorry babe, checkmate :)

[Paraduck]

Why not add human slayer and (nerfed) CB properties for hollows (as an upgrade quest for deadly hollows?) They were intended for PK use, after all.

[Tara Malkav]

Well.. then... umm.... make hollows ignore banes. =P

[Yew Wan Sum]

Hollows already ignore banes and protects.
Phantom ignores all armor, base and baned, but not protects.

[Tara Malkav]

Thanks for clearing that up Yew, that didn't seem right(what MoC said). Anywho, hollow weapons should be AR and buffable.

[Paraduck]

If they did that, I think hollow would be better than weepings...

Think of what I'd be able to do if they did that.

[Tara Malkav]

Think of what I'd be able to do! Mwahahahahaha!!!!!


...but hollows are nice... they should work nicely.

[MomentofClarity]

Yew, hollows do not ignore banes. If they did, hollow minions would be 1 shotting mages left and right. Stalemate chief.

[Tara Malkav]

I think hollows do ignore banes MoC..... Hollow Minions have never been a favorite for mages.

[Paraduck]

Hollows ignore banes -- they ignore any and all enchantments on armor, as well as life magic spells.

[Tara Malkav]

Checkmate anyone? =P

[MomentofClarity]

I wonder why a hollow hits me more on 200 al armor than on 600+ al armor? I see a difference if they ignore banes.

Hollows sucks anyway. Weeping swords rule the world of pk, hollows are last year material, died and went to hell :P

[Tara Malkav]

"Hollows sucks anyway. Weeping swords rule the world of pk, hollows are last year material, died and went to hell :P"

That's why we've been saying they should get updated!

[MomentofClarity]

"That's why we've been saying they should get updated!"

Thats why I said hollows are in the grave and weepings rule the world. No need to update hollows since weeping weapons took over. Why update hollows? Now you want to hit mages for 100+ a shot since you say they ignore protects and banes with your little hollow bow and melee weapons? Mages cant use hollow spells so that must be it.

[Tara Malkav]

Older items should get updated so they can compete with newer equipment. Weeping weapons took over, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be competition.

[Paraduck]

Mages don't have AR or hollow weapons because they already ignore all armor on the target. You already have one. It also opens up more PK(L) options.

[Tara Malkav]

*points up* Was just going to say that when I saw the edit. =x

[MomentofClarity]

Of course magic ignores armor, doesnt ignore protects though. Also weepings have humanslayer on it, want humanslayer on hollows too? While we are at it, Turbine should make shields, like aegis, that have the spell "Spell Shell" on it so we only hit for 50 using a weeping wand.

You 2 are probably the only people that want hollow weapons to be as good as weepings, when the quest is so easy to do. Weeping quest actually takes time, hollow quest doesn't.

[Tara Malkav]

"You 2 are probably the only people that want hollow weapons to be as good as weepings, when the quest is so easy to do. Weeping quest actually takes time, hollow quest doesn't."

The Heart of Innocence quest is actually fairly simple if you know what you're doing. Also, getting a hollow weapon involves getting ore, refining the ore, than taking it to the crater. Not exactly simple or short if you don't know your way around. Though just like the Heart of Innocence, it is made easier by those who know it well.

Hollow weapons use to be a fairly big part of the Pk scene and they should continue to be. With the enhancements in armor I think it would be more than practical to see hollow weaponry updated to compete with weeping weaponry.

[MomentofClarity]

Same with hollow quest, but you need a lockpicker to solo weeping. You can easily do hollow with your eyes closed.

[Paraduck]

Either way, it still doesn't change the fact that they're pretty much useless.

[MomentofClarity]

So you are agreeing with me that hollows are useless compared to weeping weapons?

[Paraduck]

I thought that was already made obvious. :)

[MomentofClarity]

I thought you was agreeing with her. Lol I was about to say.

[Paraduck]

But I do agree with her, just not on how powerful they should be.

[Tara Malkav]

We've all already agreed that hollows are useless, that IS why they should be upgraded! They've lost their use of being considered good or even ok Pk weaponry. There is a lot of potential in updating them if you do it correctly. If anything, make it a new quest to upgrade them.

[MomentofClarity]

Hollows are only good for noobs. You must be a noob then lol

[Tara Malkav]

"We've all already agreed that hollows are useless, that IS why they should be upgraded!"

USELESS!!

They should make them better!

[Paraduck]

Three years and a level 216 noob. =[

[Tara Malkav]

<sarcasm>He's not a noob, he doesn't use hollow weapons.</sarcasm>

[MomentofClarity]

I know I am not a noob when it comes to pk. I actually use weeping weapons because they are more dangerous. If you want to use hollows, thats you. I for one like to get hit hard and improve my survival skills instead of getting hit for 5-10 points of dmg.

[Tara Malkav]

They aren't going to be weak items if you give them a good upgrade though!

[MomentofClarity]

What do you want hollows to hit for? 50+ a shot on speed? Want spell shell so mages only hit for 40 with a lvl 7 war spell too?

[Tara Malkav]

<sarcasm>You figured me out, that is exactly what I want. I think melee characters should be the most powerful characters in existance. I think they should resist\evade all the time and one shot everything. There's no need to make them wait around to get their kill, just let them slaughter through horde's of level 600+ creatures. Yeah.... that's what I want.</sarcasm>

[MomentofClarity]

I dont think the "<sarcasm>" and "</sarcasm>" wasn't really needed. I would have known you was sarcastic ;)

[Tara Malkav]

You would think so... but some things just don't surprise me anymore.

[TerrorScout]

So War Magic Ignores all Armor and banes?

I thought only Life Magic did that.

So Armor is usless aginst Mages?

Only Magic Stops Magic?

So A shield Does Nothing to Help you against Magic Attacks.

Nothing?

I don't like that.

[Paraduck]

All correct, unless it has a major ward (like GSx.) The Aegis Shield reduces magic projectile damage.

[Virindi Clown]

Hollows already were upgraded. Twice I believe. And phantoms came with them. They are just items of the past now.

Look how many old quest items there are. Some things are just left to be so something shinier can come in, like weeping.

Hollows are years old. I don't want to see them standard any more. Their time has passed twice over.

Weeping kind of combines concepts of both, AND it implores the concept of keeping things updated for a while in the game. It brought back motes, but in a different sense. They aren't the original old atlans, they're something new.

Now if we could alter hollows and phantoms in the same manner, and give them ENTIRELY different properties, that would be sweet.

I'd like to see some strategy there. Different types of melees would have different uses for them if their properties worked differently according to skills and they had different mods.

One could be oriented for someone who has high magics and debuffs their targets instead of having good melee defense, and one could be oriented for people who wouldn't debuff and have good melee defense.

I don't want it to be as simple as "hollows on mages, phantoms on melees" and stuff like that, but something like the ability bonus coming from a COMBINATION of skills, not just one. That'd be freaking sweet.

I think something innovative like that is the next step in the progression of the game.

I'd also like to see the age old idea of stuff like Chorizite armor or maybe Atlan armor and stuff. That'd be cool. And then we could make shadow weapons too. Yeah, just tons of stuff like that for different people with different reasonings. Different shields. Different wands for mages AND 10 focus/self melees!

VARIETY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tara Malkav]

"Hollows are years old. I don't want to see them standard any more. Their time has passed twice over."

Yet you'd like to see them worked on...?

"I'd also like to see the age old idea of stuff like Chorizite armor or maybe Atlan armor and stuff. That'd be cool. And then we could make shadow weapons too. Yeah, just tons of stuff like that for different people with different reasonings. Different shields. Different wands for mages AND 10 focus/self melees!"

Atlan armor really isn't that bad... expecially for a character that wouldn't be using bots. I've used atlan armor on my melee character since level 1, I love it.

[MomentofClarity]

Now next patch you can loather and debuff weeping weapons. Turbine did something else good yay!

[Tara Malkav]

But weeping weapons are fine as is... we want hollow weapons to be fixed. =x

[MomentofClarity]

Hollows have been fixed like 2 times already. No point is keep trying to make them better and better and better. Be happy with your weeping weapon.

[Paraduck]

The point is to have a lot of the older quests more worthwhile to do, getting newer (and older) players to explore and quest more. This will also add some variety in PK.

[MomentofClarity]

So if they make hollows better and Turbine makes a patch when you can BL hollows too, what are you going to say? It was worthless to make hollows better?

[Virindi Clown]

Lol what are you talking about, wearing atlan armor? There's no such thing, I just randomly made that up.

And if hollow weapons were completely changed, they could look different too. They're rather bland.

[MomentofClarity]

"Lol what are you talking about, wearing atlan armor? There's no such thing, I just randomly made that up."

rofl!

[Tara Malkav]

"Lol what are you talking about, wearing atlan armor? There's no such thing, I just randomly made that up."

Shadow armor infused with atlan stones. =x

Forgot.. you people wouldn't know about THAT! It's a "noob" thing.

[MomentofClarity]

Thats not atlan armor, its still shadow armor but it had another part added to it like Smoldering Shadow Armor I think.

[Virindi Clown]

I know about that but I called it shadow armor, because thats what the name read...

[Tara Malkav]

It's your basic atlan armor. Yes, it's still shadow armor, but it's still atlan armor too.

[Virindi Clown]

I meant something like, armor made of motes, and armor made of mined chorizite and stuff. Just some variety.

[Tara Malkav]

..and I meant atlan armor. =P

[Paraduck]

no, it's stupid to fix things that aren't broken. Weeping Weapons (with the exception of missile weapons) were fine before the human slayer buff a couple months ago and making them debuffable.

[AzulDrakkon]

Perhaps a wand with a vuln 5 or 6, not usable till 50 or so, with a lower spellcraft (because an irresistable wand would be...lame)

[Tara Malkav]

Yeah.. making weeping weapons debuffable is annoying. All the better reason to fix hollows. ^_^

[Bazil Broketail]

Why not just make wands/orbs/staffs that have VULN spells u can cast if u have the req. arcane lore??????? I think the spellcraft has something to do with how powerfull the spell is just make the spellcraft higher on high arcane lore req. items so that they are not resisted as easy by people with high magic D.
This is an old idea i had back before skill refund, I just spec life but for others i think this is a good option.

BaZz

[Genji-Glove]

I think hollow weapons are due for an update to give melee characters that didn't start with 100 focus and self a chance to PK.

The first 2 years i played this game, were with a extreme ua character w/o life magic. He was actually a really good character back then because he could use hollow weapon which was probably the only useful pvp weapon back then.

[Tara Malkav]

Yeah, I say just make hollows better. Having vuln wands is a little too much I think.