Why is AC being switched to DirectX 9 if...

[Alok]

The only thing that you guys are doing in the expansion is texture upgrades? Does DX7 not support anything over 512x512 (I believe that's the largest texture in the portal.dat right now, but I could be wrong.) 256-color palettized (Yeah, I know that isn't spelled right. :p) textures?

If you're upgrading to DX9, does that mean that Z-buffering will finally work correctly? Will AC support hardware transform and lighting so that people with a X800 Pro will see a noticable difference over someone with a GeForce 2 at high resolutions with antialiasing and anisotropic filtering turned on (Though, I don't think the GF2 supported aniso.). :confused:

[Alok]

I'd really like an answer to this. It would tell us a lot more about exactly what's being done with the game. Some people, like myself, are interested in the expansion SOLELY for the graphics upgrade.

[MaddyFF]

I think the reason for going to DirectX 9 right now is to give them room to grow. They could have gone with DirectX 7 but in a year or so from now when they want to do something cooler and need to upgrade DirectX againm they would be sunk. Now they have some breathing room for future expansion.

[Gatt]

I'll also suggest,

Why would you upgrade to a lower level of DirectX which is essentially unsupported if you're doing the work anyways? I mean, I've never seen anyone release a game that required a years old Dx. Even if you don't use the features, just kinda makes sense to use the latest version.

Plus, I'd bet one of the first things MS Support would tell their Programmers if they had problems is "Upgrade".

[Fiction_LC]

^ considering MS has nothing to do with AC any more MS wouldnt say or do anything.

[Lutieus]

^ Microsoft makes DirectX. He's talking about if the devs had a problem with DirectX. In which case the devs would have to deal with Microsoft. Make sense?

[Rally]

I will be disappointed if all they update is the textures. This game is getting really old, a small nip/tuck is not going to cut it. I think we deserve a little more than making the armor look a little prettier. Most of us have devoted 5 years time and money to this game and Turbine. I'll be real curious to see what this expansion brings. New content and races can always be added, a FULL graphics update is what is really needed. Instead of losing players to Middle Earth Online, they might leave for World of Warcraft, and you'll find a newly deserted Dereth. :( please give us more than textures *begging*

[Alok]

Still waiting on an official answer here...

Unless nobody at Turbine really knows why they're doing this.

[Yula_the_Mighty]

DirectX 9 is the current API. Turbine is updating the graphics engine. The big reason for the upgrade is compability with the current graphics cards, their device drivers and the lastest service pack levels of Microsoft's operating systems.

It is not being done because the Turbine graphic engine needs a feature that is introducted by DirectX9.

Currently, AC:DM has a number of funky problems with various PC configurations which are mostly likely caused because the graphics is based off such an old version of DirectX. An upgrade to DirectX 9 mode should solve most of these issues.

The reason you have not gotten a reply is that ToD team is very busy and does not time to respond. The last diary stated they were going nuts trying to reach Code and Content Complete (CCC) while having to help out the live team roll out the monthly content updates.

Patience my friend. They will finish the code, get a complete load working, get us some screen snapshots and have more time to answer questions.

Just my two pyreals....

Maybe I should send the ToD staff a case of Jolt -sugar and a mild stimulant are a development's team best friend.

Yula the Mighty - HG

[ElgarL]

DX9 will make a LOT more features available to the devs but it's unlikely we'll see any of them to start with. I do however think you will be suprised with the effect of upgrading the textures.

I would like to hear more of their plans though.

[Null Pointer]

A true DX9 update will bring hardware T&L to the table as well as pixel shaders (which are surprisingly easy to swap in to an existing scene). I expect we'll see a lot more to begin with, actually. I also expect dramatic framerate improvements on modern video cards.

[Fiction_LC]

hopefully as time goes on to they do more graphics updates with DX9 and make some of the land look real.

[Alok]

I dunno about you, Yula, but my X800 Pro runs DX7 games just fine. I can't imagine any DX9 compatible card that can't, so compatibility isn't likely even a primary motivation.

I seriously hope that the move to DX9 forces the engine to support T&L, because it's absolutely stupid that my framerate caps out in AC around 80FPS @1600x1200 when this system can runAany modern game (HL2, Doom 3, EQ2 for recent examples of highly detailed games. Well, okay, mabye not HL2 so much.) at that resolution and get playable framerates.

[Null Pointer]

this system can runAany modern game (HL2, Doom 3, EQ2 for recent examples of highly detailed games. Well, okay, mabye not HL2 so much.) at that resolution and get playable framerates.
By "maybe not HL2 so much" do you mean that the game is undetailed, or that you can't get playable framerates in it?

Because I can play HL2 with everything maxed out, at 1600x1200, and my framerate never dips. Ever. So you're either too picky or you really need to tweak out that X800 Pro. :)

[Alok]

By "maybe not HL2 so much" do you mean that the game is undetailed, or that you can't get playable framerates in it?

Because I can play HL2 with everything maxed out, at 1600x1200, and my framerate never dips. Ever. So you're either too picky or you really need to tweak out that X800 Pro. :)


I just now got back around to looking at this. I TOTALLY meant to say EQ2, not HL2. Guess we know which game had more of my attention at the time. Heh.

*edit* Oh..see where the confusion stemmed from there... I meant to say that HL2 isn't a very highly detailed game, at least not in terms of texture resolution and poly-count. It did what it needed to, and not really anything more in terms of graphics. My computer still runs EQ2 like crap though..that game looks absolutely beautiful now, and in four years, it'll look even better because I'll be able to fire up the extreme texture resolution modes.

[Jessica]

For us, the three main reasons to upgrade to DirectX9 are:

1. It makes it easier for us to enable Z-Buffering, something we've all wanted for a long time;

2. It enables us to port back the new user interface code from the Core software. This is the UI code being used in MEO and it is pretty nice. It will give us the ability to more quickly add capabilities to the UI. Right now, anytime anyone mentions messing with the UI, people tend to turn white and start looking for a place to hide.

3. We can implement larger palettes, which expands what we can do with art quite a bit.

In general, it just makes it a whole lot easier for us to make changes in a timely manner, without being scared that we're going to break everything if we touch the UI framework in some manner.

[Alok]

For us, the three main reasons to upgrade to DirectX9 are:

1. It makes it easier for us to enable Z-Buffering, something we've all wanted for a long time;

2. It enables us to port back the new user interface code from the Core software. This is the UI code being used in MEO and it is pretty nice. It will give us the ability to more quickly add capabilities to the UI. Right now, anytime anyone mentions messing with the UI, people tend to turn white and start looking for a place to hide.

3. We can implement larger palettes, which expands what we can do with art quite a bit.

In general, it just makes it a whole lot easier for us to make changes in a timely manner, without being scared that we're going to break everything if we touch the UI framework in some manner.

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU. I've done texture replacements ingame, and the palette issue drove me nuts. Take this one, for instance...early version of the texture I was working on for a 'underwear' replacement..

http://wizzrobe.com/images/ACscrn0017.bmp

Eventually figured out that hey..some of that black palette space is...TRANSPARENT IN GAME. And oh hey, some of it translates to different skin colors! I just wish you guys would do what I tried to, because I can't figure out for the life of me how it is that you display the different skin colors using only one texture. Like on mine, if the character is dark-skinned, the neckline isn't. :P

And as for the Z-buffering? This is my single, biggest pet peeve with the AC1 graphic engine. Now, if you guys can just start using some higher poly models.. :D

One other thing. Please leave in the old interface if you change it to something like an AC2 interface. AC1's interface was truly a stroke of genius, and is fairly unique in the fact that it DOESN'T interfere with the gameplay window. You guys fixed what I saw as the last remaining major interface problem (HEY, STOP DROPPING MY BOW FROM THE 3D WINDOW!), and I'd almost hate to see an AC2 style interface in AC1. I just can't see it working with the massive pack sizes that characters have. :/

[DadgaSilverhand]

quoted by Jessica...

#3 larger palattes,...
does this mean there will be more additional colors? more dye plants varieties?
i do hope to see 5 color patterns. (edit)

Neon tones, Dark tones, Mint (Pastel) tones, and Base (deep rich bright/shade) tones, -and then Metallic tones? (edit)

we have been with dark tones for too long, except those "covenants" just give us some limited color choices to make our own personal armor set when those dyes dont really cut it. also take long time to find replacement due to failed Imbues or lost on death. matching them is even bad.

i do like oranges, but not my favorite color. i do hope those Noble Armors do look nicer in new DirectX 9 format engine just like you shown Covenant armors at Turbine Nation, i saw few pics, and i got a little hopeful.

[Alok]

Larger palettes wouldn't imply more dyes. Personally, I wish they would explain why they can't just do a palette swap for the dyes, because apparently, there's more to the textures than that. I figured they could just create a new 'dye' palette for each new color, and then just have the game reference that palette when the game uses the corresponding 'dyed' texture (believe it already does this for the 'skin' textures in the game...that's how you get all the different race colors.), but that would mean that every piece of armor using that palette would have to be re-palleted to use those corresponding palette numbers...including existing art assets. Lots of work, but damn, the payoff would be l33t. I think it's something they should definately look at doing in the future. Lootgen teal is the BEST COLOR EVER, and nearly all armor has it...but we still have no dye for it. :/

What you SHOULD see is things you would expect in a modern game:

1. No color 'splotching' or 'banding' on updated textures. For a good example of banding..well..just look at the sky. Colors that blend should form a smooth gradient, instead of a visible one.

2. More colors on the same texture. The current palette is 256 colors. Well, say you need 6 shades at the bare minimum to properly shade any given color, 12 to do a decent job, and 24+ to do it right. There's just not enough palette space on a texture right now to DO complex detail and shading, and have any real color variety. If you're using 16 shades for any given specific color, you have what really amounts to a 16-color limitation. It just needlessly complicates the creation of art assets...because not only do you have to come up with good source art in the first place, then you have to cripple it down to 255 colors (including shades!) (I believe that one palette slot is always left for transparency) and STILL have it look good.

I'm sure there's some other stuff, but it's probably minor. Hell, in certain instances, it might even lower texture loads because the artists won't have to use a 'detail texture' overlapping the main one.

[Scenario]

The two points Alok pointed out are the primary benfits of larger palettes. As it stands in AC1, we have to be careful about our color and palette usage, otherwise ugly banding becomes very noticeable. With a larger palettes with more available color options, we can make smoother looking textures for the game.

Dagda- We do not have one "master" palette we can make infinite variations on. If it was that easy, dye colors would be more frequent and I would be less scared of them (heh). In order to produce a new dye color, we have to generate a new palette for every single texture group, produce the secondary file work involved with that process, arrange for engineering to make a new color ID, and then implement the ID and palettes on all our armor. That is a huge and daunting task, especially for a small art team. As I have said before, a single new dye color could devour an entire month's worth of productivity.

We aren't ruling out new colors for the future, but our art team is already working as hard as they can, and having them add new dyes would simply break them.

[DadgaSilverhand]

ok, i get it.
it almost like making 30 new colors and it may take 36-40 months to get a complete color rainbow palattes, geez, that 3 yrs and few extra months along the way.

it would had been done with master palattes before it went to beta (1999), it is too late now, since it is lot of contents to cover spanning over 5 years.

it is better to start with totally new design engine and master palattes from ground up before the released "updated" expansion or revised Ac1. that limited engine from 1990's has to retire, because it just force your art team to make a "work arounds" instead of allowing to be customizable and make speeder time table.
you just need a "coloring bots" while you guys go to sleep and check for progress and some bugs when you wake up, that would be nice.

Interns would be nice too, good training for collage credit for them, rotate them if they get tired with colorings, then put those colors in archive and then when you have time to look over "completed" tasks before getting the approvals to ingrated into the patches.

if the longer put aside, and series of newer armors added during the later patches will make them almost impossible, even the loads of viamontain armors will make your team crying for breaks.

Totally new updated version of Ac1 with new design engines and master palattes will make it lot easier and faster, and much better than what we seen in ac2.
it will be impossible if delayed until 2006 or 2007, it will be overwhelming tasks.
Or another option would be a new armor, quest armor with a unique color(s) and if the gamers dont like it, they may have option to dye them.

i just wish i could understand DirectX 9 better and how they effect the palattes.

[Phosphine]

good posts!

[Shadow Mouse]

Quick question: After the expansion, could you use the new goodies to update the Blackmire armor to a uniform color shade? The bracers are too light, the boots too dark......

[Alok]

Quick question: After the expansion, could you use the new goodies to update the Blackmire armor to a uniform color shade? The bracers are too light, the boots too dark......

I'm pretty sure that problem is currently related to which palettes are allowed on which segments of armor. If they can expand those palettes using DX9, then they should be able to fix that.

[squidbot]

I second the "leave the UI alone" statement made above. I far prefer AC's UI to AC2's, in that the UI doesn't encroach on the game view area. New UI features are fine, and I don't object to updating the technology, I just don't want to see its core functionality and appearance to change.

[Jessica]

I second the "leave the UI alone" statement made above. I far prefer AC's UI to AC2's, in that the UI doesn't encroach on the game view area. New UI features are fine, and I don't object to updating the technology, I just don't want to see its core functionality and appearance to change.

The UI you know and love will be available, never fear. It should just be easier to make changes when we need to, without having to offer combat pay to get it done.

[Chrono]

Please tell me we will get mouse wheel support.