Sticky Melee, and some other problems before you go further

[Silifi Of Death]

I think this should be killed. It's a broken dynamic with all the new changes to melee damage. The only melees that are effected by this are gank-squad melees, because it's just about useless for solo fighting.

If you're fighting solo you don't want to stick, but if you're fighting in a group you do. The only way to balance group PvP while still keeping Solo PvP balanced is to kill the ganking weapons: (which includes player abilities, not just hollows and weeps)

-Nerf Hollows and Phantoms on melees. These should never be the best solo weapons, but at the current time they are among the best. Hollows should be balanced around group fighting, 3v1, so that one person using a weeping, as long as they have skill, would beat the 3 using hollows. Simple as that. Phantoms should be balanced for 2v1, because the main PK weapons (Katar, Sword, and rarely Axe) just use slash so you only need to vuln once for full effect, but you still need a mage with you. With Weepings that's not the case, because so many people use elemental weepings, so with them, do the next thing...

-Lower DoT, Raise Criticals. Make the variance bad and the max damage good so that we can crit for 110 (fullpower) but hit for as low as 15 (fullpower), on 600 AL (buffed) armor. This makes the melee combat work like a mage: keep shooting/striking till you hit. Don't raise crits on Hollows though: Those should never work like this because they are gank weapons, not solo weapons. Phantoms should be an inbetween.

-If possible, nerf fullspeed so that it does a smaller percentage of the damage it does now.

-Kill Sticky Melee, period. This was a broken solution from a time when all a melee could do was group. Obviously, the direction we're going in is not melees being a group class, they are now a solo class, keep it in and PK on DT will just degrade more and more into a gankfest.

[shobo-dt]

I would love a sticky on/off toggle button on the combat interface....

[_b0o]

I think this should be killed. It's a broken dynamic with all the new changes to melee damage. The only melees that are effected by this are gank-squad melees, because it's just about useless for solo fighting.

If you're fighting solo you don't want to stick, but if you're fighting in a group you do. The only way to balance group PvP while still keeping Solo PvP balanced is to kill the ganking weapons: (which includes player abilities, not just hollows and weeps)

-Nerf Hollows and Phantoms on melees. These should never be the best solo weapons, but at the current time they are among the best. Hollows should be balanced around group fighting, 3v1, so that one person using a weeping, as long as they have skill, would beat the 3 using hollows. Simple as that. Phantoms should be balanced for 2v1, because the main PK weapons (Katar, Sword, and rarely Axe) just use slash so you only need to vuln once for full effect, but you still need a mage with you. With Weepings that's not the case, because so many people use elemental weepings, so with them, do the next thing...

-Lower DoT, Raise Criticals. Make the variance bad and the max damage good so that we can crit for 110 (fullpower) but hit for as low as 15 (fullpower), on 600 AL (buffed) armor. This makes the melee combat work like a mage: keep shooting/striking till you hit. Don't raise crits on Hollows though: Those should never work like this because they are gank weapons, not solo weapons. Phantoms should be an inbetween.

-If possible, nerf fullspeed so that it does a smaller percentage of the damage it does now.

-Kill Sticky Melee, period. This was a broken solution from a time when all a melee could do was group. Obviously, the direction we're going in is not melees being a group class, they are now a solo class, keep it in and PK on DT will just degrade more and more into a gankfest.

LOL u want melees to hit for 15 full power? with a crit chance of 10%... that means id only do 145(or 255 if get one of ur 110 crits) damage after 10 *full* power swings IF i get a crit in thoses 10 swings. a mage can get off 5 wars to my 10 full power swings that do 150+ damage for a DoT of 750 in the time it takes me to do 145/255. yah gg

and u want to nerf full speed hits, so when im chasing someone i do even worse damage? and to get rid of st icky all together so anyone who wants to escape does? lol


no

what needed to be done was to *fix* sticky, so that when someone jump spins away i dont get locked up for 10 seconds, or when they slide in an arc-moon-style my character doesnt run around in a FULL circle while they blast.

and nerfing full speed damage is stupid, against some people i *have* to go full speed because their fast cast is so good i wil lonly get off 1 full power swing between their wars, full speed atleast lets me get in more hits before i have to break and dodge again.

no thx

[Silifi Of Death]

LOL u want melees to hit for 15 full power? with a crit chance of 10%... that means id only do 145(or 255 if get one of ur 110 crits) damage after 10 *full* power swings IF i get a crit in thoses 10 swings. a mage can get off 5 wars to my 10 full power swings that do 150+ damage for a DoT of 750 in the time it takes me to do 145/255. yah gg

and u want to nerf full speed hits, so when im chasing someone i do even worse damage? and to get rid of st icky all together so anyone who wants to escape does? lol


no

what needed to be done was to *fix* sticky, so that when someone jump spins away i dont get locked up for 10 seconds, or when they slide in an arc-moon-style my character doesnt run around in a FULL circle while they blast.

and nerfing full speed damage is stupid, against some people i *have* to go full speed because their fast cast is so good i wil lonly get off 1 full power swing between their wars, full speed atleast lets me get in more hits before i have to break and dodge again.

no thx

1. Only way to stop melees from being overpowered is to make them have a reason to dodge. You can dodge wars using skill, usually 80% of the time unless they fastcast. A mage cannot dodge a melee, other than jumpspin, which you want to have nerfed. Melees get luck, Mages get skills that are hard enough to master that they are almost like luck. Either way, both have to know what they're doing rather than simply relying on pressing the magic button 50 times after they've macroed their character to an appropriate level. Oh, by the way, by 15 fullpower I meant that as a minimum. In reality, the damage on a low variance high max weapon could be anywhere for 15-50, so the average damage would be more like 35. Average damage on most weepings right now is... hey, it's about 30! That's an improvement, not a nerf.

2. Fullspeed hits/sticky are only for gankers, really. You do not need sticky to fight a mage, infact, it will hurt your chances of winning. But, I'll see your point of view because it is true. Rather than nerf fullspeed AND sticky, just nerf one of them. Sticky is easy to remove, so just do that. Can't catch those people? Too bad. You played on FF, how many people run away in PKLite? A melee can already outrun anyone, choose his battles and run if he feels like it, might as well give everyone else the option to run away as well, unless you have a way to prevent melees from running too, I'm sticking with what I said.

3. Fix Sticky... remove jumpspin... mm... No. If you remove jumpspin the way things are now, a group of two or three UA using hollows will be able to kill anyone, no questions asked.

4. You don't play the game anymore, so your opinions are crap to begin with, especially seeing as you quit before the patch that melees were improved in. I, however, actually play this game, so I am entitled to have an opinion that Turbine listens to, no matter how biased or stupid my opinion is, just as anyone who plays AC1 can say whatever they want. By the way, why are you still posting on the AC boards if you don't play the game?

[Mystic-Rogue]

Wow, just wow I really don't have patience to focus on the things you have mentioned but i'll try.

You can't just remove sticky b/c it doesn't fit your playstyle(1vs1), some people like to do nothing but gang don't try and ruin that for them. As for the hollow and phantom also just your thoughts and opinions of what they should be used for, and they apply to your playstyle yet again compared to others, that you need to consider before you come to the boards with ideas of how you think things should be. I find it funny how you say balance this and that with, 2vs1 or 3vs1 combat. No class should ever be balanced by 2vs1 or 3vs1 standereds. If there is more then one person on you then the chances of you dieing should be quite good no matter the situation.

Your idea of Dot and Crits is horrible, I havn't tested Axe damage, but i've tested sword and Ua and they both do 105+ with max str(347buffed) on Al 658 buffed armor, Sword did 107 and Ua did 116. But your hopeing for 110 crits and 15 some times on fullpower hits? ya ok... The only thing that melee weapons need is some kind of small Cb Modifier.

[Virindi Clown]

You guys are missing the REAL problem with removing sticky.

Apparently, you are all completely missing the solid fact that every time anyone so much as wiggles you would likely not be able to land a melee attack.

Yes, it is a broken dynamic. That means it needs to be FIXED, not REMOVED. It was NECESSARY to add it even for fighting MONSTERS when the game first came out, but it was done very sloppily, because all of a sudden it was just spit out one patch.

What we need is the ability to instantaneously cancel a sticky lock with movement. For some reason, even running away often seems like it won't break it once you have started. We are all familiar with the unfortunate scenario where you see a mage start casting a war spell or whatever when you try to move in, so you decide to back off, slide over to dodge the attack, or run in some direction, and you just get sucked straight back in.

[Silifi Of Death]

I would love a sticky on/off toggle button on the combat interface....

Actually, there is a toggle on/off, just not on the combat interface. But I do agree, it should be there so you can turn it off when you need it and on when you want it.

Mystic: Hollows should never be the best weapon, period. You don't have to cast, which saves time, credits, and xp. I'm not against group fighting, but I am against gank squads that are completely unavoidable, and consist of only one type of character, melees. If you want balanced group fighting make sure you need multiple types of characters. In a group meant to gank the only thing you want is melees with hollows, and maybe one mage (doesn't even have to be a mage really) if you're using phants. And that will beat anyone except someone with more melees than you have. 3 melees with the current hollows could beat 3 mages, provided they are all skilled enough to dodge multiple war spells, because the 3 hollows will kill a mage that's trying to fight within 7.5 seconds. No kidding there, do the math:

9 damage (Hollow UA)
x
3 melees
x
2 hits per second (fullspeed
54 Damage per second

411 (max health)
54 Damage per second = 7.61 seconds

That's the time it takes to cast two wars. If the melees designed their templates right, has wars they should each be able to take a war and heal quickly with Health Rations or THEs. They prolly wouldn't even have to dodge, and this isn't taking into account the occassional crit. Now, it's not taking into account Fast-casting either, because I don't have any solid info on that so I won't try to say what it would do. Still, even dodging those melees could cut down the mages one by one, and soon it wouldn't even matter if one of them god killed, because there'd still be two left to carry out the damage. It'd be a close battle, but equally skilled mages will be killed by equally skilled melees in a group fight.

On the Crits: Really? That's what you've seen? My numbers were coming in at 90s on crits, usually not over 100. I didn't mean that they should be nerfed from where your numbers are, just improved. If that's the case, crits should maybe be improved.

[ElronOfDarktide]

"It'd be a close battle, but equally skilled mages will be killed by equally skilled melees in a group fight."

this will never be able to happen as long as jump spin exists.

with jump spin melees lose the ability to have more then one person attacking the same target while mages retain this critical ability.

if more then 1 melee targets a single mage in a group fight said mage will undoubtedly jump spin resulting in one lost combatant for the mage side and 2 for the melee side of the fight.

the more melee that attempt to target a single mage the greater the loss for their side. the melees then are left to individually fight 1v1s vs the mages... and some people seem to think mages AUGHT to win 1v1s vs melees for some reason ... probably because they play mages.

it is always funny to hear melees asking for balance while mages ask to be more powerfull then melees and then they say melees are being unreasonable for wanting it to be even!!!!!! they say "how can you want things to be even... mages take more skill to play!!!" or " mages spend more skill credits" or "you just hit delete and i can't do anything about it" it's literally true that you often hear mages describe why it is good and right that they SHOULD be MORE POWERFULL then melees. they don't even try to lie and say things are balanced as they are... they admit its unbalanced and they simply say that is fine with them. well obviously since they are mages!

Elron

[King of Kings]

There is a way to toggle sticky melee.

When you are in attack mode, you have the option to check the repeat attack or uncheck it to not sticky.

[Silifi Of Death]

There is a way to toggle sticky melee.

When you are in attack mode, you have the option to check the repeat attack or uncheck it to not sticky.

That's not sticky melee though, that's repeat attacks. Sticky melee is when the melee gets a huge boost in speed when he's attacking, so he can chase down even the fastest people in the game no problem. Combined with Fullspeed attacks that means the person will have no chance of getting away.

Elron: Yes, with jumpspin you are right, that's not so balanced. Jumpspin does need to be removed, so long as they get rid of the weapons that will make Sticky Melee godly should they fix jumpspin, or nerf low speed.

ok, seeing these points does make me realize there is a little bit of a problem with my plan...

Keep the third one (lower DoT and improve criticals) and the first one (nerf hollows) and have a choice between nerfing Fullspeed and Removing Sticky Melee.

So that's...

1. Nerf Hollows to be balanced around 2v1 (changed)
2. Lower DoT and raise Crits on Weepings
3. Remove Sticky Melee,
-or-
Nerf fullspeed and fix Sticky Melee so that it can't be thrown off so easily, and fix jumpspin

[Virindi Clown]

3. Remove Sticky Melee,


You can't do that for the reasons I described above, which most everyone is apparently still choosing to ignore...


-or-
Nerf fullspeed and fix Sticky Melee so that it can't be thrown off so easily, and fix jumpspin

Something like that is what has to be done.

And what have I been saying all along? Make FULL SPEED have a lower power modifier...

[_b0o]

You played on FF, how many people run away in PKLite?

just about every single person i attack runs, the ones who dont slide cast and fast cast, without sticky i wouldnt be able to fight htem at all


what sticky needs is to be fixed, not removed, that would be a step backwards.

[Silifi Of Death]

You played on FF, how many people run away in PKLite?

just about every single person i attack runs, the ones who dont slide cast and fast cast, without sticky i wouldnt be able to fight htem at all


what sticky needs is to be fixed, not removed, that would be a step backwards.

Wow there are a lot of n00bs on FF then.

You can't get away from sticky, why bother running...?

VC: (nm, I get it)

[Grey-smoke]

Wow, just wow I really don't have patience to focus on the things you have mentioned but i'll try.

.

Your idea of Dot and Crits is horrible, I havn't tested Axe damage, but i've tested sword and Ua and they both do 105+ with max str(347buffed) on Al 658 buffed armor, Sword did 107 and Ua did 116. But your hopeing for 110 crits and 15 some times on fullpower hits? ya ok... The only thing that melee weapons need is some kind of small Cb Modifier.


Mystic Rogue, when did u make these tests?
From what Ive been seeing sword hits harder now.

[Virindi Clown]

VC: (nm, I get it)

Yeah, I am getting the impression that others don't, though...

Unfortunately, we have to accept sticky. However, in doing that, it also has to be cleaned up.

Like I said, it was suddenly made out of nowhere in the beginning of the game's life, and once implemented, was never really altered.

There's GOT to be something that can be done.

I can't imagine why you couldn't atleast cancel a sticky lock, like I suggested. That seems like the obvious simple place to start looking at to me, and it is also the solution to one of the biggest issues with sticky. The game does it, but doesn't allow you to control exactly when it happens.

I'm not sure that fixing something with sticky could in any way fix jump spin. Jump spin seems more like something that needs to be dealt with separately.

[King of Kings]

Jump spin and run away.

But sticky melee is funny looking lol.

[Dj_Viper]

I'm sorry, but do any of you remember back in the day when there was no sticky melee? It was IMPOSSIBLE to hit anyone while moving. You could take one swing, and that is it. There would be no possible way to kill anyone on the run, and same with monsters. This cannot be removed. If you have a problem with it, jump spin.

I don't even have a problem with jump spin, it is a way to break sticky melee, and doesn't allow you to do it over and over again. I think sticky melee/jump spin are fine the way they are. What is the real problem with sticky melee?

[Khael]

Yes, if they would fix it so you can break of anytime you want, and not be sucked back in, that would be great. Would make it alot more interesting to fight a mage as melee.

Right now if you stay wait too long you will most likely be sucked in, so you have to break off way ahead of mage releasing the spell. If you could break off successfully anytime, it would make the game so much better.

[Frank The Knife]

Yes, if they would fix it so you can break of anytime you want, and not be sucked back in, that would be great. Would make it alot more interesting to fight a mage as melee.

Right now if you stay wait too long you will most likely be sucked in, so you have to break off way ahead of mage releasing the spell. If you could break off successfully anytime, it would make the game so much better.

Yeah when I get my timeing off and try to break I either rubber banded into a war or lock up and have to jump.

Those that acctually play melees know sticky is a blessing and a curse.

I still think the best fix for jumpspin is to make a character come to a complete stop before jumping.

[Virindi Clown]

I don't even have a problem with jump spin, it is a way to break sticky melee, and doesn't allow you to do it over and over again.

Uh...wtf?!?

[Mystic-Rogue]

Well Silifi if we are gonna take three on threes into account, it doesn't take any time or skill at all to break sticky, or pull out a shield while the other two mages shoot away or chain heal him etc. Hollow isn't the best despite what you may wan't to belieave, it doesnt do more damage then weeping on high al armor and it's shield hollow that in my opinion is enough to argue that its not the best.

I tested my damage last tuesday right after I was unbanned.

[Dj_Viper]

Uh...wtf?!?
I meant to say you can't jump spin over and over again without stam loss.

[Virindi Clown]

I meant to say you can't jump spin over and over again without stam loss.

Not if you hit ~ when you jump, which basically everyone does.

That's the real problem. In THEORY, the spin jump fix works, but in practice, it does not, thanks to this bug. The devs apparently refuse to acknowledge it, since they do not fix it and still accept spin jump as the fix for breaking a sticky.