Feedback thread: What do you like about AC's PvP?

[Ibn]

One of the things we have on our plate for the near-to-mid future is across-the-board improvements to PvP combat. That said, we want to make sure that we don't change any of the aspects of AC's PvP that make it special.

We know, from playing and from listening to your feedback, many of the aspects of AC's PvP that keep people coming back. Right up at the top, we believe, is the level of control that you have over your avatars -- the ability to move during combat. Along with that is the fact that the winner of a battle is frequently the most skilled player, and not just the player who has the best equipment and the most XP (although equipment and experience are still extremely important).

Later, we will be posting a focused feedback thread asking for what you don't like about AC's PvP. But right now we want to know what it is you like, so that we make sure we don't change it.

So, please use this thread to tell us what it is that you think AC's PvP does better than other MMPs.

[Vehementi]

Yes, the ability to move in combat and for a skilled player to take on multiple opponents is the one defining factor that sets AC apart from all other games PVP wise. Whatever you do, do not change this.

Edit: To elaborate, it's specifically the fact that arrows and spells are projectiles that exist in the game and have to come into contact with their target to do damage, and are thus dodgeable to the adept player.

[Lavigne]

unless its melee v melee i like how its fast paced and not just push button x watch, watch watch watch watch cheer for win/cry for loss.

only bug i dont like personally is jump spin. it renders melees completely useless since i've seen people lag 90% of the way across the radar on a jump spin.

but i like the slide casting, fast casting, slow etc, it makes it fun.

[Jinnsman]

I think you hit it on the head for me Ibn. I love the fact that there is more to PK than just getting the best armor and weapons. It was (and continues to be) exciting to figure out how to cast spells 'faster' without fizz, to break away from a sticky melee, etc.

While some consider these aspects of the game to be bug exploits, I consider them to be features that allow us to develop abilities beyond the parameters of the game.

Granted I am a noob when it comes to pk (my highest toon on dt is 37 and I have never spent more than a week at a time without running to sanct to go white again). However, if PK was to become nothing but a Diablo hack and slash - guy with the best weapon, most life, best armor wins - it would be a tragic day.

If anything, providing even more freedom to PK would be fantastic albeit very difficult to do. *imagines being able to spec a stealth skill and sneak up on someone, quick backstab and it's on* :D

[Aztek]

Ive played on DT for 4 years. Here are some positive thoughts about AC PVP:


1) Movement and healing ability - A good player can stay in the fight longer even against multiple opponents by utilizing movement skills and tools for healing.

2) Level differential - In extreme cases level does matter but it is still possible for someone with billions less exp to kill another player who is higher by utilizing both movement skills and pre fight preperation.

3) Looting - The death item system and looting works very well. If you understand it and pay attention you wont drop anything valuable but if you die enough the danger of losing something valuable is there. Its also important to get some type of reward for killing an opponent and getting a corpse full of death items works well.

4) Equipment - There is a good variety of quest items and loot items (tinkerable) to enhance your characters abilities both offesively and defensively.

5) Allegiances - The monarchy system overall works well. Its fairly easy to determine who is on whos side ect...

6) Ability to control dungeons and territory - it is possible to "claim" areas such as dungeons and leveling areas/towns/portals and defend them through various means.


Ideas for what I would like to see:

1) Archers become a viable class again. As of now one spell can shut down an archer.

2) Towns have more of a purpose and there should be some type of in game mechanism for "controlling" a town with the controlling allegiance getting some type of benefiet for doing so. Btter sell rates or whatever.

3) Have death item "tokens" with pre set values to carry that can be turned in for some type of reward or carried as death items. Mke them only purchasable form a town that the allegiance "controls" perhaps.

4) Have the ability for monarchs to declare war on other monarchs and be able to raid their mansions.


5) Have the ability to "buy" NPCs to use as venders or guards.

6) Expand the tinker system. Include salvage that has the ability to "transfer" spells from one item to another possibly using the 33% imbue process. Or have an imbue to "upgrade" and minor to a major using the same process.

7) A "buff all" command.

Well thats it for now.

AC is the only game to keep my attention for this long and I look forward to it getting better and better.

[Chubasco]

The flexibility of character type / creation that allows for a bit of variety in play style.

[vizigoth]

Yep, control of character is most appealing aspect of PVP in AC for me...

That and just the general chaos of engaging the enemy on the field :D

[Aztek]

Another key factor is preperation. The player who takes his time to properly prepare for combat can have an edge.

Thas a good thing for us "planner" types. :cool:

[arcgremlin]

things i like:

currently swords and mages are very very close to being balanced
andd sword verus bow is pretty close to balanced as well

you can move when casting and do so with a bit more restriction whilst shooting arrows
you can move while winding up on full power as a sword

as a mage you can move in so many different ways while still attacking

you can beat more than one person at a time, as long as you aren't facing more than one melee

[DT Yesh]

I like sticky melee, the ability to slidecast and hollow weapons.

I cant wait for the "what we dont like thread" :)

[Ur-red Ur-dead]

i like the way it is now, arcs and bolts was a great idea, ability to move in PK (mage)

Hollows are great (but does very little damage vs tinked armor)

Freedom to kill anyone one. Even if a lvl 40 can find it unfair that he gets killed by a 126, you shouldnt restrict this at least not on DT.


Overall, i think its all fine, PvP doesnt need significant changes.

[arcgremlin]

Zimone, just letting you know, i can hold a war for over 10 minutes
and release it exactly when i want anytime with those 10 minutes

(i normally make a mistake sometime before much longer than 10 minutes due to fingers hurting :p)

but delay casting + powerslide w/fastcast is the only real way of killing a maxed out swordsman as a mage

anotherone: i like how you increased sword damage with the weeping, and how you increased spell no-fizzle radius

[Haus der Liebe]

I agree somewhat with aztec on the likes so I'll copy/paste them:
<edit> should also note, I am a DT'r of 4 yrs as well <edit>
"2) Level differential - In extreme cases level does matter but it is still possible for someone with billions less exp to kill another player who is higher by utilizing both movement skills and pre fight preperation.

**3) Looting - The death item system and looting works very well. If you understand it and pay attention you wont drop anything valuable but if you die enough the danger of losing something valuable is there. Its also important to get some type of reward for killing an opponent and getting a corpse full of death items works well. ** (love this one, think it's excellant)

4) Equipment - There is a good variety of quest items and loot items (tinkerable) to enhance your characters abilities both offesively and defensively.

5) Allegiances - The monarchy system overall works well. Its fairly easy to determine who is on whos side ect... ** Especially now with the allegiance chat .. LOVE THAT, it's great for small guild such as ours .. using 3rd party apps for allegiance chats simply wasn't feasible for us .. with the introduction of Turbine Chat, it's great to be able to communicate server wide with my guildmates

6) Ability to control dungeons and territory - it is possible to "claim" areas such as dungeons and leveling areas/towns/portals and defend them through various means." ** This is what makes DT, DT .. here, we can kill if you if you don't belong

7) Attacking styles .. for the first time in 3 1/2 years, we see the occasional axe/mace/spear char now on DT

8) Aegis shield and how it works .. this is IMO what has ultimately made it possible for a melee to solo a mage ..

9) No level restrictions on killing .. on DT, if you happen across a noob that is in town or at an outpost because he's not smart enough to run off into the woods to lvl up .. I love the fact that we can kindly escort them to the LS

I will post more later for sure as I am a bit strapped for time atm .. thanks ten million times over for specifically address PvP

[Unicron]

Balance for all classes...

I think it's currently more balanced towards mages

[Dirtnapp]

I like raiding and defending.
towns and LS's were great fun before housing.

[Frank The Knife]

I like the fact that a mage who is lvl 80-100, and who has war/life spec can kill anyone on the server reguardless of lvl.

/\- When I play my mage.

I like being able to jump spin away from anyone at any time.

I like gems of stillness. I think they need to dispel item debuffs as well. ( Loather SUCKS)

I like portal ganks. ( yeah I die to them as well )

I like large group combat. Maybe once melee's are un-nerfed we will see this once again.

I really enjoyed killing people with my sword for the month I was able to before the LAME loather patch.

I like melee pk.

[Paraduck]

Okay, short, simple, and to the point: I like the balance and variety of strategies that can be used. As stated, dodging wars is a player-developed skill and is dependant on experience in fighting (not experience points.)

[Auron IX]

The movement in ac is the best of all games i played. This makes pvp great when you can stop and move at will.

[Zimone]

arcgremlin, I was reffering to holding a war spell while moving after my target, not some strafe-fest from side to side, where you eventually have to be near your starting point not to fizzle.

What sucks about Darktide in general these days is that most people take no interest in fighting whatsoever, and just run away, and there should be a chance to chase those guys down and kill them, even as a mage.

[Ifuritah]

I liked the tinkered era! Before weeping weapons showed up. Being able to create your own weapons and armor was the best thing that happen to this game. GSx was available as 'cookie cutter' armor as were the atlans and isparians. But not as good as you could tinker a really good find. Then came the weeping weapons and destroyed it all, now everyone runs around with a weaping weapon in there hands, making everyone too similar to each other. Too many people have Sharded GSx with a Weeping. Making them debuffable destroyed the major advantage they gave, you can easily fix this by making a material in the game you may apply as a tinker to make the item UNENCHANTABLE except for the spells already on the item. This would also help boost the games econ.

In a nut shell... I liked being able to customize armor/weapons. It gave the game a more distinct feel, instead of seeing eveyone in GSx with a weeping weapon.
It's just nice to have other options then the norm.

[lazy-dt]

I like mage dammage with weeping, and movement.
edit, please fix the lag on dt though

[Tjm_DT_WE]

Pk is near PERFECT in this game.

Mage vs mage combat is interesting, and a lot of fun...


No one can say it would make the game better by taking exploits + sliding out, because thats what makes AC Pvp what it is, which is the best PvP in a MMORPG of any MMORPG out there.


Sworders are hitting hard now, and it is really easy to dodge mages if you know how, this is pretty well balanced.

Archers... well, you could do some changes... I don't know what though.


If turbine were to fix all the exploits and sliding in this game, it would turn into another EQ for PvP.


I love this game how it is....


Except, FIX THE LAG ON DT!


Also, I heard someone complaining about jumpspin earlier in this thread...
Thing I have to say is... If you have a level 126+ sworder with a mage, and hes gettin 100-150 crits full power, and 40-80 crits with low power, the only POSSIBLE way to survive you have is to jumpspin (this is if your a mage.)

Keep jumpspin the way it is, or ganks or even 2 on 1 will become overpowered.

[Pessimist]

"the winner of a battle is frequently the most skilled player, and not just the player who has the best equipment and the most XP (although equipment and experience are still extremely important)."

I think this is the biggest attraction to Asherons Call. The fact if you have the skill you used to be able to fight the odds.

Unfortunately I don't see this as the case anymore. From the recent changes to melees (sword mainly) the game has turned more into template based / numbers game.

Melees can now fight a mage 1v1 odds & have as much chance to win, no matter how skilled the mage is or what armor he wears. I have worn al 434 amuli fully buffed & baned & still been hit 196 through this, more than the 132 I hit them with a war 7. I cannot dodge a melee attack. Melee attacks cannot fizzle. Melees can run & I cannot hit them. I run they sticky me.

Melee's are now definitely the strongest class (I have had to reroll a melee & trust me, its too easy to kill people in big fights), because while I understand melees want to be able to 1v1 people, this does not work for group dynamics.

An example is the other day I'd just rebuffed after dying, was losing vitae, & I ran into 3 enemies. They were all mages so I stayed. I killed 2 of them before the last one got me while I was looting. Now change 2 of those mages to melees & basically no matter how skill I am, no matter what I do or what equipment I have I'll die, because melees deal too much damage & you cannot escape it.

The stamina penalty kills me on two accounts, its hard to fast cast, & secondly its hard to run & regroup. I can't kill someone running from me, why should a melee be able to?

Not to mention on the odd chance I have the same odds on my side, when a melee is about to die a friend just uses the awakener on him or he uses a gem.

Personally I think the movement fizzle range is absurd, it should perhaps be removed altogether, to increase the skill based aspect of the game. Also the stamina penalty seems biased.

[Velaxis]

Ditto on the movement. The SPEED of AC is critical to its enjoyment, it makes skill useful.

I like the changes that were made to make escape more difficult.

Improvement:

Give PvP as much meaning as you can.

Old Days: Players fought over leveling spots.

Now Days: Players fight over macroing spots. But you're crashing down on UCMs so you'd better have something to fill this vacuum. i.e. the ability to claim territory, LS's, some sort of tangible acknowledgement of success by a Monarchy/Individual in PvP.

When you introduced housing, that was great for housing, but killed a significant portion of the PvP environment. You use to know "AB = Anti Territory", "Kara = Blood", "Hebian-to = Gen", etc. Now towns are meaningless.

[ground zero]

1. movement- no other game can do this...tried all the other mmorpgs and pking is slow and boring...fights last seconds (daoc/sb) fastcast makes a big diff in this game pking/npking

2. make a reason for pking instead just death items...control towns/outposts and get a bonus' to stats/attri for an amount of time.

3. soloing- pking is great in ac b/c in other games u need every single class/charac (group of friends) AC just log on and find a few peeps to kill...no waiting for a "healer" to log on so we can pk like in shadowbane/daoc or something.


- i like how there isnt a big variety of characs/classes...every'1 a mage/melee/archer wit same stats/loot...so when it comes to pking it takes SKILL...lvl 100's can kill lvl 200's...daoc u gota lvl to 50 just to have a good charac to pk w/

- like marketplace add a pk recall...where every1 can do big ffa's or something...when u pk outside ppl will just run nonstop...so a recallable pk dungeon be nice...just when u recall make it so u drop from the top and random drops so ppl dont camp the recall

[Lubo]

You guys have PVP pegged minus the lag. The best times for me are the big 20 vs. 20 fights at AB, AL, mansion raids, etc.

The ONLY problem is that when there are happening the lag is BAD right now on DT.

The variance you have is great on PVP where skill actually matters. I started fighting lvl 126's when I was 80, and while I didn't win many, I came close a lot of times.

Someone mentioned the jump spin...it's pretty much been nerfed since when you do it, you're out of stam and you're dead in the water until you can chug or cast.

When the run skill is based on server, and not on the connection...I think that you can take jump spin out and it's all good. I regularly have people with 100 less run than me sticky...and if I'm quicker, they shoudln't be able to do that...jump spin is the only hope to get away.

One issue that was mentioned is that a one hour quest weapon (weeping), is now more powerful than a 10x tinked sword that you have to save salvage for weeks in order to complete...that's not right.

PVP in this game has been done very well. I only fear that changing anything will make it worse, not better at this time because it's pretty balanced....besides swords vs mages when you're not an exploiting mage.

[Elrin]

PvP in AC can't be in that great of a state given that DT is almost empty and you almost never see red on the white servers.

Some people do really enjoy it, but even with PKL the majority still do not do anything more than try it a couple of times.

The good:

Its not as bad as some MMORPGs where the only factor in who wins is which level is greater. Lev A > Lev B = A wins
You really identify with your character as you have put a LOT of time into them, unlike the FPS where you don't really care about your avatar
There is more to it then being fast on the aim/trigger/jump button
The effort required to be a viable PK makes those who do overcome the hurdle feel elite
Players are a lot more interesting opponents then monsters
Being able to do something about it when you are wronged is nice


The bad:

It is lot worse than an FPS where the only thing that matters is your skill level and speed. In an FPS you don't have to spend months to make a high level, perfectly outfitted, perfectly templated, etc. character to be able to have a chance at competing. You have a chace at being competative right out of the start gate. This very high barrier to entry is what keep the PvP population low.
Balance is neigh impossible in an RPG. In an FPS char with wep X = char with wep X, so balance is easy. In an RPG you have so many variables that balancing across classes, etc. is going to be impossible.
Finding "fair" fights is difficult, especialy for newer contentents. If you are a lev 10 you would like to be able to find and fight those of a similar level (etc.) but you are much more likely to run into and be fought by those of a class you have no hope of competing against. In checkers you would go to the newbie room to start out and work your way up, but what can you do in AC? Without the ability to find a fight they have a change at, the player will quickly lose interest.
Being killed randomly when you were not even competing is not really much fun. Optimally you want to chose to compete and then do your best to win, not just find yourself dead


Most fundamentally, players want to feel they have a chance in the fights. They want it to be a challenge, but one they have a shot at winning. But in AC it too often ends up way too one sided, in either direction; either the fight was no challenge or it had no hope. For new entries in to the arena it is a huge hurdle to get past the vast no-hope zone to where there are a reasonable number of encouters they can compte in.

I think making PvP competative and easy to start out in (but with a lot of room for progression) is the key to making it fun for more players.

Having some interesting PvP only challenges would be nice too (CTF, death race, etc. :)

[Rim]

The strength of AC1 darktide has been a combination of fast paces PvP action, combined with the survivability of a single character against overwhelming odds if the player "plays well"

The main downside however, is what we've all come to accept is "skill" in AC1.

Skill in AC1 is defined in large part by a players ability to use "undocumented" and sometimes unintended aspects of the character movement system to better achieve whatever that player's goals are at a given moment.

While the system that exists has indeed made the game strong from a PvP perspective, documenting and supporting the movement aspects of the game that are desired is only reasonable.

If fastcasting should be in game then make it a part of the documented movement of a character casting magic. The fact that it would be documented and supported wouldn't remove any skill from fast casting, in fact it would add to the argument that such things are skill related.

If jumpspin during PvP combat should be a part of the game then document it and support it, otherwise, remove it.

The basic concept is simple. In order for a game to be fair and enjoyable, the rules need to be established and the rules should apply to everyone.

Long term issues that must have fixes:
1. Movement disruption of heals and spells needs to be fixed.
2. Portal logging needs to be fixed.
3. Gear needs to be fixed.
4. PK timer on passing through a house force field needs to be added.
5. Run speed needs to be addressed. I know that a lot of people are going to gripe about this one, but basically, any run speed over 350 (depending on your isp) is almost worthless. We need run speed to be renormalized so that a 500 run is max effective run speed, which would equal today's 350 run, then normalize run speed down from there. This would help address many movement issues that we currently have now, along with giving value to slowness and leaden feet. Heck, you might even see people spec run again. :)

[Rojon]

I like the fact that PKL now lets you fight without dropping items, something I hated while playing Darktide.

I'll see you when the "what don't you like" thread gets posted.

:)

[smaweet]

You said it correctly, I love the control over my character, and I love how skill is a huge factor in winning putting aside some points of EXP and equipment.

I'd like to see certain things still available to spellcasting to make duels endable (without hold or fast cast or a lagspike a duel can go on past rebuffs)

Also, I'd like there still to be a way to get away, jumpspin is fairly cheap but it's a way to get around a lot of the exploiting and the high exp chars that have unfortunately cheated to get there. (this isn't including people who spend quite amoutn of exp on run)

more variation would also be nice in pvp, whether melees have more types of things they can do (which should come before any mage help) and maybe more types of spells.

and don't take anything away we already have unless it's regarding fastcast (holdcast is fine as long as noone double casts) before you fix the lag a little please




plus, get rid of PKL on the whole, it's a good idea and fun to keep sometimes, but it should be for mansion or a dungeon fun, not the landscape day to day PvPing

[Virindi Clown]

Everyone is pretty much agreeing here.

In short, everyone likes the flexibility of PvP. There is a lot you can do with it. It has lots of complexity to it if you want to get deep and it's simple as heck so you can just jump right in as well. Everyone gets to have their own kind of fun.

Although this is not the topic, what we don't like, in short, are the things that hinder this.

That sums it all up and we all know what it means.

[Blau]

I am intentionally not reading the other replies because I want you to get my raw, untainted perspective. So please forgive if I say the same thing as the folks above:

The things I like about PvP:

1. That tinkered gear really is superior to no-drop quest items. I am glad that the best gear is truly valuable because it was crafted by players and it took a significant investment to do so. This is the case for armor. Unfortunately, it's not the case for weapons since everyone uses weeping weapons. I really think they should make the best weapons in the game be player-crafted items.

2. Winning in PvP requires some real-life skill. It's not just about XP and template. It's true that your XP/template can make a difference, but it's a small part of the big picture. There are techniques that you must learn to master PvP. Casting techinques in particular are challenging. This is less true for a melee, but it's still largely true that template and XP alone won't win a battle. A lot of the "exploits" (fast casting, jump/spin, etc) really manifest themselves as skills that must be mastered. In your attempts to fix PvP, don't screw this up or AC will become boring like AC2.

3. Death items. Little trophies, with a small chance of looting something uber. Very nice. Gives us something to fight for - there's always a chance that the next kill will yield something useful. It also means you have to care about death if you're competitive (as most of us on Darktide are) and you have some "skin in the game" in a PvP engagement.

4. PK Hunter. I realize this isn't a Turbine mechanism, but many of us really like that our kills are recorded by the PK Hunter plugin and we can compare our scores with the scores of our friends and enemies. The problem with the PK Hunter plugin is that it records the killing blow, not the person that was credited with the kill. I really think AC should put this functionality into the game and do it right so that the name of the person on the corpse actually is credited with the kill.

5. Raiding/Defending. Raiding and defending are a lot of fun. It's like a mini war. You prepare your team for battle and go out looking for other teams that are prepared for battle, typically at the PvP hot spots such as Tusker Island, Sanctuary, Marketplace (on Darktide), and Ayan Baqur. I just wish there were places that rewarded you for taking and holding control because many people are discouraged from raiding because it gets a little boring camping a drop waiting for another team to come challenge you. There is a little bit of this going on in game, but I'd like to see a lot more meaning to holding a territory. Like make a fortress/castle/whatever that once you take control of it, you start making XP/hour. This will give people incentive to take and hold a territory, plus it will give meaning to some of these interesting landmarks in the game that otherwise have no meaning (like the cool Skeleton Castle north of Hebian-To or something like that).

6. Politics. Many of us enjoy the politics of Darktide. The story line on Darktide is much more about guild politics than it is about the shadow wars or the invasion of Bael'Zharon. Ask people what it means to be old-school Darktide and they'll tell you about the wars that happened in early 2000 or which character was the first to hit level 40 and completely own everyone else in a solo raid. This guild owns that territory. That guild has a hostile take-over of their leadership. Guild A and Guild B are at war because of some long political dialog that's interesting. I'm not sure you can really enhance this, but it is one of the things I really like about Darktide (and I assume much of it goes on on other servers as well).

[Ibn]

Thank you for the feedback folks! There's a lot of excellent detail here.

I did strip out a number of posts that while otherwise excellent, were not on topic. I didn't delete them, I moved them to a Turbine-only forum where we can go back and check them later. There was some great stuff there -- for the "what I don't like about PvP" thread that's coming later. :)

[Ifuritah]

I liked it when housing barriers had a timer on them.

Remember when you couldn't run through the housing barriers for 30 seconds after you attacked someone (whether inside or out - prevents traitors from escaping).

Oh wait a sec... that was a dream. :)



We really enjoyed DT when the lag wasn't so prevailent. (hopes no one argues)

[Geomancer]

I like the raiding, the counter raiding, the defending, etc.

When housing was added to the game, it destroyed a big dynamic - fighting over towns. However, this has since been replaced by raiding the enemy's macro spots.

If you've never tried macro raiding, you're missing out. It's insanely fun; You'll jump into the dungeon, run around, try to catch the macros before they can log out, and kill as many as you can. Almost instantly you'll get live characters logging in to attack you back, and within about two minutes they'll come pouring into the dungeon from all across the server.

Truly good times, and something very valuable (XP) and fun to fight over. You can hit multiple dungeons each night, and throw down constantly.

[Ros]

What I like best about AC-PVP

The fact that if you've grown accustomed to dodging spells, arrows, while healing, running, casting, and trying to kill :P

(wish you could lift restrictions on "run-heals" and "run casts", and actually balance the fundamentals, rather than force every player to play at the same skill level by limiting their actions. If they're coordinated enough to do it, god blessed em, let 'em do it.)

Free-action MMORPG's are the future don'tyaknow!?

Ros

[Whisp'r]

I really love AC as a whole, I have since retail on FF. FF however got boaring after about 6-8 months. I decided to try DT and never looked back...

PvP in AC is the most exilirating, exciting, emotional, frustrating, (on ad infinitum with the adjectives) thing to ever happen to the computer. I truly beleive there is no feeling I have not experienced while playing AC on DT.

I absoultely love the politics and the development of the community as a whole. The Antiville set up with several allied monarchies taking over a settlement of villas was pure genius. Maybe having some formal allegiances between monarchies with penalties for breaking treaties would be fun (monarchs activate treaty and pass exp bonus DOWN the allegiances...breaking removes bonus...???...).

Its great to see how people get better and watch the animosity for someone that I just HATE turn into a grudgeing respect over the years.

I like the freedom in character development, as well as the restrictions. I often chuckle at posts from people who have great characters for PvM complaining that they are ineffective at PVP. The reason is really simple. A good PvP character has to be developed that way. I would love to have different stats on my UA noob when unting olthoi mutilators, those suckers hurt. But if I want to have my 290 base life and 280 base magic D I have to give up some of the things that make for easy hunting. In short I like that we sometimes have to make really hard decisions about what is just fluff to make hunting and questing easier and what is essential for PvP. Finding the balance is critical and challenging (speaking as a mele).

I like the dynamics of PvP with regard to movement. I support the more movement, not less, faction. The fact that mages have options for casting coming from hours of practice is great. I like bein able to dodge wars and missle attacks. I think increasing movement for all player types would be a good change. An earlier post mentioned cutting damage for running mage spell cast. That might work...a moving mage can still cast but for only XX% of the normal damage. Taken further, healing on the run would be possible but with less health returned.

I'd love to see all mele weapon types being played as well. There is such a variety that we are capable of. Unfortunately most types just arent viable for PvP.

Finally PLEASE do not change the total freedom of DTers to kill or be killed by anyone anywhere anytime (I guess houses are ok now but maybe Im getting soft). I learned as a nooblet to stay the hell out of towns unless absolutely necessary and not to be caught in "stupid" places. I learned do fully buff for EVERYTHING, unless I wanted a trip to the LS. I learned to respect my elders.

This aspect of the game (paranoia?) learned by all DT immigrants is responsible for the strong ties we have to our comrades. We will (and often do) actually die for our friends.

[camperman-x]

1. Equipment and Template Doesnt make or break the player, less maybe your an aluvian or ghar archer =p

2. You are never down and out in a fight, it is possible for someone to mess up which allows you to sieze an opportunity for victory even if you may be outclassed.

3. Fighting over and controling area's, once lifestones and towns but in more recent history dungeons and leveling grounds.

4. The ability to fight anytime anywhere (cept housing since ACDM) if you have a particular grudge aagainst someone? go attack them hunting, or try to catch them doing a quest.

5. Death items are a must. Vitae is okay too but maybe should be a bit more expensive to lose it.

6. Being able to solo/group raid and defend, and have so.o vs solo, solo vs group, group vs solo, and group vs group fights.

7. Inter guild conflict and politics. More complex and complete Monarchy tools might be nicer but they seem to be on their way.


Make decept and assess person useful in PvP as they seemingly should be. (dont say assess person is, whats the point of knowing someones level, they are all 126+ ;p)

[Romen]

The customizations are HUGE!!!

As said before, AC PvP is mostly about skill and no so much as numbers... though i say melee's in 1v1 are more powerful.

An idea to improve PvP would be to maybe made Deception more useful... How about the skill, depending on someone's assess person skill, could make the person invisable on the radar? Like creatures use to be (though, i dont think creatures were dependant on Assess skills.) This will add value to Assess Person and Deception skills! Also, it can add an element of suprise which would ROCK!!!!

[Blau]

Ibn, you probably need 3 posts to get good data here:

1. What do you like about PvP
2. What do you dislike about PvP
3. What new stuff would you like to see implemented to improve PvP.

Another way to look at is:

1. What do you want removed?
2. What do you want added?
3. What do you want to be left alone?

[Helob]

I love the way you've changed it so much from what it used to be, I love the way all I get in fights are movement fizzles and lag hits (for example http://bakla.dogsicle.com/realtypical.jpg )

I love the way all it takes to be a good pk is a mage+melee team.

I love the way melee's have all the advantages.

I love the way PKL players influence PK's game.

I love the way you ask us what we like (once in five years is awesome)

I love PK.

[Virindi Clown]

Everyone has programs that keep tracking of everything around them and particularly, show where people are.

Invisibility would be worthless, unfortunately.

I agree that there need to be more topics here. First of all, it is very quickly going to become far too much to read. Second, this is too broad.

What about changes made to the game we don't like? Changes we can suggest with things already in the game?

[phases_ogmaxim]

Movement control

[Stella]

What do I like?

I like being able to defend myself with gems of stillness to a mage. Being an archer I don't have much of a defense against the most powerful of the charachter templates.

I like the political dynamic of AC. I love that there is a constant struggle over hunting spots or even just over principles. To be honest that is what has kept me playing this game for so long.
There is nothing like raiding someone elses territory/hunting spot and chasing them out for the spirit.

I like Death Items. To me it raises the stakes a bit and makes competition a little more serious than if you had "nothing to lose" by getting in a battle.

I like that there are no "zones" like in MANY other games. No matter where you are it is potentially dangerous. Aside from inside housing of course.

I love how fast paced AC is. I have honestly tried to play other games and they are just TOOOOOOO SLOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWW. In AC you have to be very fast with your keys or you are going to die, very fast. You have to think fast and make sure that your decisions are correct. In other games it feels like you are moving through molassas to get anything done. Including killing your enemy.

If you are fast on the keys and able to make decisions quickly a battle, either group or singly, can last for a very long time. They can outlast your buffs.

I like being able to buff all of my armor.

I like being able to tinker armor and have tinkered weapons.

I am running out of time but I am sure I will think of more later.

[TheeAngryOne]

Dont change movement in pk. If you do, I and others I know who pk alot will quit.

[DaggerMan]

I'd like to see proof that you killed something. So if you killed someone in PK(L) you could loot a trophy off them like "Head of Player".

[Ros]

got me thinking of a new movie title...

"24 Heads in a Loot Pack!"

Har!
Ros

[Shoguar]

I think PKL has taken away alot from PK on white servers. I know weve been begging for something like this for a while, but when i had suggested it, i suggested that you make it a dungeon only thing. You go in, either red or not, and you can fight and not lose items or have vitae. Make it sort of like the PK arenas, except with PKL rules, and maybe have a limit to it, because real pk is so much funner. EIther that or have a certain region of dereth that is PKL only.

PK has just become a joke now because everyone seems to be pink, and those who want to go red cant because they wont have anyone to fight. Being Red used to actually mean something, it used to be sort of a completley different game, PKL is like a game inside a game. Please consider making changes to PKL, i can explain this better in person, and i live literally two minutes away from Turbine HQ in westwood, and i work on the other side of the tracks. If you guys want some feedback, im full of ideas, i dont ask anything in return, just send me a PM and ill get back to you.


As far as PK goes in all other aspects, its great.

[AFWriter]

PvP.

What I like:

1. The basic movement dynamics, although flawed in some respects, are better than most (any?) MMPORPG I've played.

Comparing AC1 PvP with SWG or AC2 PvP is like comparing 'The Matrix' with its sequals -- newer does not all ways equate with better -- the next-generation MMPORPGs all feel cookie-cutter in this regard.

2. The varying degrees of commitment to the playstyle currently available; Darktide (full PvP, all-the-time), Regular Server PvP (like Darktide, but controlled through PK/Non PK shrines) and Regular Server PK-lite (PK w/o item and vitae loss).

This allows people to participate in PvP to the extent they desire -- no one's forced into it, and the choice to participate is clearly defined.

3. The depth of the event. There's more involved than either being first, faster, or having better stats (to an extent).

In other games like this, PvP is over as soon as it starts because the first attack is the fatal attack (or amounts to one, as it cripples one player beyond recovery) or involves too many FPS aspects (think gear-like acrobatics w/o gear) or a lower level has no, zippo, nada chance against another charatcer (in AC1, once you reach about level 80-100, you at least have a chance against any player in the game -- regardless of level).

For me, that's about it. I'm sure the "What Don't You Like About PvP in AC1" thread will be much, much longer and more detailed.

However, for all it's flaws -- the AC1 PvP system appears to be balanceable and fixable, at least in some regards. The key is what the dynamic is based on.

If the key is balancing one-on-one PvP, then the tweaks and solutions will be much different than if the key is balancing group PvP.

Personally, I think we as an audience are far more focused on one-on-one comparisons, while the developers have envisioned grand events of mixed groups.

This has led to failed expections and faulty assumptions (and some really bad mistakes and exploits) on both sides of the PvP fence.

Anyway, I'm rambling -- which is a sure sign that I should stop typing, LOL!

Later,

Don!

[Bosscat]

One element, completely, well, almost completly ignored is Macros, UCM Macros, specificly. This was a part, when it was allowed, that I liked to watch evolve. Made PvP a true combat of choice, PvM, PvP AND PvUCM. To some extent, this is still around, but it is against boring "Logger" scrips, logging/recalling (like a live player too 0.o to fight) when a player is detected, and you have to camp in order to chance a catch/kill situation. Mostly inside too. Dark, Boreing, almost as bad as PvM on 0.o. Still, it is a form of battle against enemies.

Back a couple of years ago, there was a couple of groups that were working on UCM's that would fight as teams, taking over Lifestones in "enemy" territory, and raising havoc against their enemy's, ONLY their enemy's, leaving everyone else alone to carry on with their business. They would do this no matter their level This was very creative in concept, and, over time grew to be a challenge as well, because their AI improved over time. From a Drudge Skulker to a critter of formidable cunning and able to assemple in packs was also something to behold.

Seeing that "Oh S***" in the chat window after seeing some poor sap kill one of the Macros was a joy to behold as was standing on the LS de-buffing the sucker for them when they came running from all points of the compass. Then, a week or so latter seeing it again when the Macro saw him again and took after him with all his friends. Then came Hollow's and I didn't even have to do that, just sit and laugh to my hearts content.

I miss this aspect of the game, letting the players design their own opponents worst nightmare. Imagine, 5 - 10 lvl 20 - 126 players, all @ 40% Vitae in GSC with Weeping/Hollow and Ageis Shields taking on a party of player's on their KoS list, all unattended. Here is where skill would REALLY count, both sides would have to be skilled in battle. Add in a mage like me and, well let the DI's drop and the LS Ring!!!

But no, UCMacro's are a CoC on all worlds. Open them up for the landscapes at least, let the combat creativity flow. Who knows, you might find someone to help design Critter AI's in the results.

Wish I could find their site URLs, if they even exists any more

[Virindi Clown]

Although off topic, I must say I find it almost humorous how many people love the movement in AC, even mentioning that it might be a little glitchy.

Shows you that the guys who have a problem with it really do just whine more to have a presence.

[Binky]

Things I love about pvp in DT.......


Classes are VERY balanced (before you GASP/FAINT/RUN AWAY IN SHOCK read on) IF both sides are well prepared. The pvp system is built on checks and balances. There a counter to every type of fighting out there. Loathers/wards/aegis shield/resist/meleeD etc etc etc.

PVP is fast paced, if you stand still your dead (hence why fastcasting/strafing are necessary and people LOVE them).

I left AC for two years and ALOT of the changes that have happened to pvp were awesome when I came back. The drain changes were essential (and I play a mage so this isnt a biased opinion on drains). The spell disruptions were essential, although they need to be increased on distance a bit as lag should be taken into effect in this because many people are disrupted when they should most definitly not be. The ability to target a person instead of a weopon for loather rocks also.

PVP should be looked at in TWO ways though, as the Devs read thru this thread and collect ideas, they need to severly realize the people who play on DT for pvp will want completely different things than people who play PKL or rpk on a white server. It's completely different and should be treated as such (which is why we should have 2 pvp boards, one for DT'ers and one for non DT'ers, make it so you have to contact an admin in game and have a chara above level 50 on DT verified by the admin before you are granted access to the board)


Can't wait for the things you want changed thread (not that I'm saying pvp sucks, I just have ALOT of ideas to "improve" it as im sure others do also)

[Pessimist]

I like Helob :)

[Ur-red Ur-dead]

fastcasting, delay casting makes PvP interesting (at least between mages).

It adds unpredictability. fun

[Dzipt]

Honestly, there's no other game like AC, pvp wise. I simply love it. That is, the AC from 3 years ago. Don't get me wrong, not saying that AC's current state is horrible, but back then was so much better.

So, with that in mind, let's talk about gameplay exploits...

Good games are built on and around exploits and tricks. By exploits, I don't mean duping and such. I mean actions performed in combination with other actions that result in an added depth and skill factor to the game that was not originally intended.

For example, let's take a look at Quake I. When id Software released QI, they never intended for people to be able to take advantage of the physics in the game, resulting in bunny hopping, strafe running and rocket jumping. However, it spawned not only massive popularity, but plenty of mods and fansites dedicated to these very 'exploits' in the game code.

They weren't seen as exploits, though. They were seen as an added feature, meant to be mastered and used to their full advantage. id realized this and when they released Q3, they made sure these 'features' were available to the players, albeit in a more accessible, less exploitive way.

Even in physical sports, rules are bent and assets are exploited to insure victory. How and when to use these exploitable assets and bendable rules is where skill comes in. And whatever adds a higher degree of skill level to a game, certainly makes for a funner competition.

Now that I've careened way off track, I'll lay out what *I* think should be done with AC pvp.

First and foremost, I do believe that any and all 'advanced gameplay exploits' should be brought back. BUT NOT in their current (or past) incarnation. If something works well in the game and adds more enjoyment and competition, don't destroy it. Embrace it, then streamline it and add it as an actual feature.

Here's an idea I had that would allow the fastpaced gameplay of runcasting/godemode and the unpredictability of delay/slow casting, but with balance. This is just an idea, whether it's feasible or not, I haven't a clue, but it's mainly to help illustrate my point.

First of all, make spells 'holdable'. You press your hotkey to wind up the spell, and then the spell becomes 'active'. Once active, you can fire off the spell any time you want. Of course, only one spell active at a time.

Secondly, allow a character complete freedom of movement when the spell is active. So basically, one could stop, hit a key to wind up a spell (about 3 seconds), and then run around until they're ready to fire it. Hit the cast key again, blam, instant fire. Hell, this would even fix the goofiness of seeing mages skate around on invisible rollerblades.

Maybe there could also be a timer as to how long you hold it. Maybe if you try to hold it too long, you get 'mana burn' and the active spell you're holding damages you. Etc, etc.

At any rate, I think I got my point acrossed. Embrace the gameplay exploits, improve on them and return them to the game better than before and that's about it. Hope this is at least somewhat informative to whomever reads it.

Thanks for the great game guys, and I can only see it getting greater in the future.

- Dzipt/Kakle

[Stella]

I am going to have to emphasize the movement topic a bit more.

We like the movement in this game. I like the fact that when I go PVP against another char. I have to do a lot more than hit a button once and watch it go.
Dodging, moving any direction, running around them in a circle so a war spell doesn't hit you and you can move in for the attack. The fact that you can even run if you want to.
These charachteristics are one of the things about AC that makes it unique.

[Ros]

These are the same things we told you prior to the Launch of AC2 when the questions were asked. ;P

Ironic?
Ros

[Lavigne]

Originally posted by Dzipt
First of all, make spells 'holdable'. You press your hotkey to wind up the spell, and then the spell becomes 'active'. Once active, you can fire off the spell any time you want. Of course, only one spell active at a time.

Secondly, allow a character complete freedom of movement when the spell is active. So basically, one could stop, hit a key to wind up a spell (about 3 seconds), and then run around until they're ready to fire it. Hit the cast key again, blam, instant fire. Hell, this would even fix the goofiness of seeing mages skate around on invisible rollerblades.

Maybe there could also be a timer as to how long you hold it. Maybe if you try to hold it too long, you get 'mana burn' and the active spell you're holding damages you. Etc, etc.
- Dzipt/Kakle [/B]

very good idea imo, would add a lot of surprise attacks too. fun.

[Ivanhoe]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dzipt
First of all, make spells 'holdable'. You press your hotkey to wind up the spell, and then the spell becomes 'active'. Once active, you can fire off the spell any time you want. Of course, only one spell active at a time.

Secondly, allow a character complete freedom of movement when the spell is active. So basically, one could stop, hit a key to wind up a spell (about 3 seconds), and then run around until they're ready to fire it. Hit the cast key again, blam, instant fire. Hell, this would even fix the goofiness of seeing mages skate around on invisible rollerblades.

Maybe there could also be a timer as to how long you hold it. Maybe if you try to hold it too long, you get 'mana burn' and the active spell you're holding damages you. Etc, etc.
- Dzipt/Kakle [/B]


Maybe for pkl.
not for PvP (Darktide)

[Ivanhoe]

What do I like about AC's PvP?


A few things.


Fast gameplay (the FPS feel)
The ability to kill any level player
The ability to take over dungeons/areas (again due to being able to kill anyone you want to)

The Loss of Items on Death is good.
The Vitae on death is ok But for today's AC i think higher levels should get a few more % of vitae per kill. A lvl 130 gets 6% a lvl 135 gets 7 a level 140 gets 8 a lvl 150 gets 9 lvl 151++ gets 10% viate per death.(1 of my chars is 160ish so i would get 10% vit)

I like how u can use the enviroment to your advantage in PvP (rocks,trees,lifestones,buildings)



Pretty much all of the mmorpgs out and are coming out all have the slow,dumbed down feel to their game and your lucky if they even have a pvp server at all. (ac2 for example was exactly what NOT to do to a game if u like pvp)

[Ghent]

Taking a cue from Ibn's moderation, although there are also many things that need to be improved, this list is strictly those things that are good about AC pvp and therefore that should not be tampered with:

1) Movement and timing (twitch) are important (dodging spells and arrows, outrunning drains and harms, releasing war spells at the right time to hit).

2) Tactical decisions, such as choosing the weakest armor point based on knowledge of armor types, or using terrain features, can make a difference.

3) Teamwork is rewarded. In a 10 v. 10 fight, while individual skills are important, even more critical is how the entire group coordinates its attacks and defenses.

4) Levels and equipment are also important, but only to a point, after which skill (see #1 -- #3) is much more important.

5) Speed. Fast moving = exciting.

6) Combat is survivable. While it can be frustrating to lose a kill, it is even more frustrating to die without even a chance of survival, i.e. at a circle-camped portal drop. Having a chance at recalling out before being locked in place, or at escaping the campers, is a good thing.

7) The general lack of safe zones (allegiance housing being a huge, huge exception) makes DT a place that the players police and control. We can handle our own grief players, and in fact they are the most enjoyable "monsters" to hunt.

[Ryuken]

All right, I'll try to expres some of the core aspects of AC's pvp which I like, and in fact look for in other MMORPGs.

The movement freedom-- the ability to slide around, run fast, break animations at will (ideally... lag permitting), and otherwise act like the star of a Hong Kong action flick is not only very appealing to me, but central to the PvP experience which AC possesses. The fact that applying movement correctly requires skill *and* constant practice is an added plus.

That terrain matters-- in combination with movement, terrain can be used to give an advantage or disadvantage. This is important, as no other game out there (other than FPSs, and that I know of) account for this. If I can sit down and read Art of War and apply it to PvP, I become a happy man.

That strategy matters-- buffing, forethought, terrain, morale, timing, the hostile environment... all these resources can be taken into account and used in a fight. Not *equally* by the different templates, mind you, but the fact that they can matter is important.

That fights take time-- this is actually no longer true to the greater degree, but it used tobe. If players in a fight have options, tactics, and the time to try them until one works, then they feel in-control, even if they die. They have the hope of winning, the excitement of a fast-paced fight, and the time to learn. One-shots, instant disabling blows, Mezes, roots, etc in PvP are endlessly frustrating because they make for very, very short fights....

Let me interrupt with an anecdotal story which illustrated everything good about AC's PvP. During the Queen-quest days years ago there were big wars over the dungeon, Marae, and the quest. On one occation I was running to help and ran into an enemy mage who was just finishing buffing on the surface. We proceeded to fight-- using spells, melee, debuffs, ranged weapons, vulning for creatures, healing kits, gems--everything-- for a HALF HOUR. We ranged over a quarter of the island, back and forth, and by the time it was over, it no longer mattered who won... the experience and what we were able to do was were the fun came from, and we both agreed that we'd had an absolute blast.

The fact that fights can have a conclusion-- it's endlessly frustrating to meet a matched opponent, fight, and then have no ending. AC's moved away from that in the last year, and that's a good thing.

That crafted items make a difference-- it would be nice if tinkered weapons were worth a darn (compareably) again-- you had it perfect for a while. But, the fact that the loot system has any impact on PvP beyond simple death items is a step in the right direction.

That it is possible, sometimes, depending on your class, to solo PvP.

That it is possible, sometimes, depending on the classes of your opponents, to survive a lopsided fight.

That there are locations which mean something to fight over-- this is much less so than in the past.


In general, the appeal of AC's PvP can be summed up as "Freedom"-- freedom of choices, meaningful options.

...

Now I can't wait for the "what don't you like" post... I've got an even longer list. :)

[Uk_Sarah]

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'The Head of the player killed or Hair Or whatever should be given as a reward'

[Uk_Sarah]

Sorry I posted to fast...

I feel PvP is great and I don't think anything should be changed it is great how it is. The templates in Asheron's Call are great and should never be changed.

There is alot of skill in PvP combat which is a great thing!

[Davy_Hall]

Things I like about AC PVP?

1. Speed, speed, speed. Your character reacts and moves so much more quickly than in most MMORPG's I've played recently.

2. Skill - When you take a few weeks off, it immediately shows. This is not true for most games. Just memorize the patterns, spells you need to use, and once you have them, you have them. In AC it's so dynamic. Even 12 hours off will leave your first 30 seconds of a fight up for chance before you settle in and adjust to the speed & flow of the fight.

3. Others have already said it, but having something to fight for. AC has this on many levels. On the most basic level, you have to fight in order not to die. In many games death is either totally unimportant (think AC2 early on when a common tactic was to keep zurging despite 20 deaths or more as you gradually whittled down a stronger opponent at the Lifestone), or takes great periods of meaningless tedius work to get back into fighting shape. In AC, you drop DI's and eventually your important intems when you die which you cannot do indefinitely but yet most people can do 4 or 5 times without immediately having to restock. Basically a little preparation will allow you to PvP for hours without any lengthy downtime.

When you die, you have to rebuff and you're white for 5 minutes. This is one of the most useful parts to AC IMO. First, it gives you a 5 minute "time out" period, that gives any fights going on in the area a chance to conclude before you can rejoin it. However, you can immediately participate in other aspects of the game: buying comps, rebuffing, burning vitae & picking up DI's, stuff that you already do normally so it doesn't feel like punishment, and yet it keeps you out of interfering with the fight in which you just lost.

Fighting for honor - as was mentioned earlier, PK hunter, as incomplete as it is and as much as people may abuse the system, provides the only current individual pvp measuring stick. Even with PK hunter, you can pick through the names look at who they've killed/been killed by get a pretty good idea if they're just a n00b outpost camper or if most of their kills are legit. Discounting the outpost campers, overall the best & most active PvP'ers will be found near the top of the list. I liked what Blau mentioned about implementing an ingame system that records the person who did the most damage instead of just the killing blow. If it were possible, I would even love to see partial credit given (think NFL Sack Statistics) - anyone that does over 1/3 of the damage but less than 2/3 gets a "half kill". One of the biggest gripes about PK hunter is that it favors ganks. When 3 or more people are hacking away, the people who combined to kill only get part of the glory. I think splitting it out evenly by damage done is extreme, but awarding half kills for 1/3-2/3 damage, nothing for less than 1/3 & full for more than 2/3 damage. 8 mages heartrending at the drop would get no credit if they each did less than 1/3 of the damage.

Control of locations - This used to be towns before housing. Towns were incredibly important as places to coordinate raids, buff, & purchase goods. Consequently they were raided and defended constantly. When housing came, that mostly vanished. Now the primary reason for raiding/defending is leveling grounds. That's where the majority of spontaneous fun PvP takes place, (mostly protecting prized macro locations). With Turbine likely taking a more active role in reducing unattended macros, will there be any locations left worth raiding? Again, I think Blau had a good idea, offer rewards just for holding a certain area. Xps is a good idea. Also perhaps financial incentives for the clan that holds a particular town (if there's a way to define control).

4. All the options players have. You can choose to inept, or not to inept, depending on your template. You can choose to use gems of stillness like candy or not use them depending on your wealth. You can set up your character to fight mages (all wards, perhaps lower AL armor with more majors) or melees (max armor level, sacrifice some wards), and neither setup is "the ultimate PvP gear". There are just so many viable options & paths to success.

Those are all things I really love about PvP in AC and things I hope will remain a focus throughout the changes.

[Virindi Clown]

The things I like, in short:

Skill playing a large role

Freedom of movement

Infinite play styles

Depth of the whole thing

Ability to "police" ourselves on DT or just attack anyone for whatever if you feel so inclined

And, how it is STARTING to become balanced all the way around, hint hint ;)

[slaven]

I like how mages can move when Fighting you should also add in a thing so archers can move while shooting this would give them more of a way to compete in pvsp.

As for fast casting and delay casting these need to go as they were not Intentially a part of game they were Bugs figured out by players after they couldn't GOd mode or anything else their just resorting to other bugs to get kills cuz they can't play the way the game is ment to be played.

As for jump spin if you take this aspect out of game (The only way for a mage to break combat with a melee who is whacking them) Then you also have to take Healing and elixir drinking movement out to lvl the playing field. I can't recall how many times a melee has Broken combat because i hit him with a war and slides across my screen drinking elixirs it's the same idea as Jump spin breaking melee combat this breaks mage combat. And as swords can h it for almost as Much as a war (Very unbalanaced since sword costs 16 to spec and war magic Cost 28? i think alot more than sword at any rate). If if your trying to balance it so melees have better chance in pvsp for kills Should take into consideration that Mages spend way more credits specing war and other magics than melees do like ua for example takes 4(or is it 6) to spec if ur sho does it seem fair that they should be able to spec their damage skill 1/6th of what i spend to spec war and they do 1/2-3/4 of the damage that i do? it doesn't seem very fair to me...
Maybe i look at it the wrong way but maybe i look at it as turbine should since microsoft didn't care about balancing out skill credits pts rather than balancing out damage

[Hubbell]

Fast/delay (i don't mean turning in circles to keep from shooting, i mean the kind of delay that lets you hold a war for 1+ minute) casting are the only things that put skill into pk'ing on a mage.

[Mooman]

They should add a Human Slayer Salvage...and also they should add something u can tink a wand with to increase a spells damage.


Like a % bonus....LIke 1% to Fire Damage.

This would work for PK/NPK...

[Mooman]

i think they could make going red more rewarding (if u win a fight especially if u win a fight with sum1 good)

Like sum1 said about pplz head...or ear like in Diablo...

but u could do that...but then u can also turn it in for xp based on their win/loss record for the past hour or so...SO if sum1 has a hot streak...and u kill em...you are really rewarded....this would make more ppl switch to DT or if not...will make ppl on O.o servers go red instead of pink...I don't think when PKL came out the devs wanted it to be the main PK on the O.o servers...I think they just wanted it as practice...

just my 2p

[Virindi Clown]

If you could loot something automatically generated off any corpse, people would run macros that kill their other accounts.

[Shao_TD]

I like the movement aspect, but the servers need a upgrade. Alot of times PK comes down to who lags into a war first. You guys seem to have done a nice job killing gear and god mode, the two things that completely killed pk for me.

[Lilkinsly]

You pretty much said it, PVP in AC is fluid, not fixed.

2 things matter, Toon skill, and Player Skill. That is what is great, a weaker toon can win if they are more skilled.

I also like that it isn't rock paper scissors anymore. Any class is able to beat any other class, assuming a skilled "player" is driving. Archers may need a little help with this though.

Nothing should ever be done to make AC PVP less "flexible."

[Ares Blackheart]

I love the speed of a fight (melee vs mage and Archer vs mage)

Its not too fast not too slow. I always get a rush when I enter a fight even if i'm losing, I think its one of the main reasons I continue to play ac after 3 years.

Just now, typeing this and thinking about a fight and the rush i get makes me shake a lil

:D

[Ryakki]

The best part of PvP is the movement... it's what makes it about skill more then stats or items (although of course they can still play a huge role).

The problem is that fluid movement, as such, is only provided to mages.

People complain about damages, and exploits, and this and that and the other, but I think less restrictive movement on archers and especially melees would not only go a *long* way twards acheving balance but make the game much more fun and exciting for all involved... especially melees.


Currently, melees are somewhat useful in group, and a staple in ganging the helpless... but 1v1 mages can easily kill them by restricting their movement... making it impossible to break sticky and scoring free hits, making them dodge every time a war is fired (melees have a clearly defined attack and defense mode, the two are completely incompatable)... with less restrictive movement (ie, more effective sliding while powering up, movement during attack, more fluid wand-to-weapon switch ect.), perhaps even coupled with a slight damage decrease on Weeping melee weapons, a melee would be able to not only compete effectively with a mage, but perhaps have meaningful melee-melee fights as well.

In an archers case, it would simply bring them on-par with mages, who right now hold the advantage mainly through their ability to attack and defend at once, never stopping to attack, simply doing everything at once and very efficiently.

[Hubbell]

Once again why PKL newbs should not comment on PK matters. Melees are strong enough as is. Archers can do with a damage increase because as it is, my level 106 cannot be killed by any ARCHER (read: uses his bow ONLY not a melee weapon) no matter what level or how good they are.

[purple]

ac1 still by far has the best pvp system in any online RPG, there's a few points that could do with tweaking, but it's still lightyears ahead.

that being said, there's one point that i would really like to see adressed: housing, and more specifically mansions.

before the advent of @house mansion_recall allegiances generally lived in towns. you had a town and lifestone to defend and something to fight for. once housing and mansions came around, all that disappeared very quickly.

i would really like to see safe mansions disappear on darktide, removing all barriers would be great.

[jfilip112]

I always hated when a significant change came to pvp, and would always think it would ruin the game; but in the end I ended up liking it. For example:

When the death item system was changed, I at first thought it would mean I would start losing my good items if I didn't have really expensive death items. But when I actually read over the changes, it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be and now I like it.

When weeping weapons were first introduced I hated them. I did not like the fact that they went through shields and thought they ruined the game. Eventually I saw others integrating the new weapons into pvp and realized it wasn't that bad and now I like those too (although I still miss being able to use a shield sometimes).

I wasn't sure how to feel when the made weeping weapons be able to become an elemental damage. I liked the fact that melees could do all the damages now as well, but it seemed as if a lot more people began baning for every damage. Before, my friends and I would try weeping, but then try an elemental with our tinkered weapons only to find out the players were not baned and we easily killed them. But once again, I've gotten used to this fact and ended up liking it more than disliking it.

Also when I found out weeping weapons were made debuffable I thought that would again ruin PvP for melees. I still don't like it much, but it seems to make things more fair. Especially with 126 melees who can do so much damage (I wish I was one of them :)). I thought it would once again make PvP a mage thing, but it just makes us switch weapons and try a different strategy. I haven't tried loathering other peoples' weapons much yet just because I'm not used to the fact that I can, but again I think it's something good that you put into the game.


There are many ways people can use the movement system, which I like very much because it does add to the fight and makes them much more exciting. One of the main reasons I love pvp in AC is the adrenaline rush I always get from fighting that I get from no other game. And being able to move around always makes things more interesting. I like jump spin since it gives everyone a chance to get away from melees, since all you have to do to get away from an archer or mage is run. I don't like the lag that you get in game (although I know its not something you have the most control over). I spec'd run to be able to chase people down, but my run skill doesn't do much for me anymore since someone might jumpspin and 2 seconds later they would reappear almost off the map. I'm sure some of that has to do with the server-client dataflow and jumpspin messes it up, but I wish it would be a little better. I also think the lag hinders run skill some and would be nice if this could be fixed possibly. Again I know its not all within your power to do so since it is an online game but those are some of the things I still dislike with pvp. I believe the system itself still is almost as perfect as it can be, and everything you have ever done to altar the PvP may receive critisicm at first, you always seem to do the right thing and the changes are always a plus to the way we PvP.

I like the magic system as it is, in terms of buffing because people that are willing to put more time into buffing everything can be rewarded by surviving and winning a battle in pvp (like above when I mentioned people who didn't bane to every damage). I also like how mages can fast cast and have delayed firing. That's about it though, thanks for the great game turbine :).

Oh yea and I always liked everything you had in game that we could use although some people consider it cheating (like gems of stillness and such).

[coma_black]

well the problem with pvp is almost 90% the ability to lag people out.

i could do 6 diff keystrokes all legitimate movements in ac and 8/10 times i can get you to scream gear! without doing anything other than playing normaly.

jump spin chug = ghey
you have to be totally ready to be able to counter this move and hope you made the right change in direction to actually stick back to the person.

LOS problems = the ability to shoot thru terrain depending on the angles and no this is not a problem with arcs...its a bit more complex than that. i've never seen an arc go up and over a 90deg cliff and hit someone on the other side.

at least 1 damage spell a mage can use on the run (meaning chasing someone) have it on a timer like the recall timer. all anyone has to do is run from a mage and that fight is over. chances of using racial weapon on a melee of any level is silly 90% of the time.

a ls in the center of town may promote some activity but only if there is a reason for them to use it. intro some new 100% vendor there or mastermage and it will become a place to fight for.

on a side note put a ls in the center of EVERY town making it a chance to Claim citys as hometowns.
this promotes active pvp .

intro a pvp only dev team so they can work on nothing but pvp content a crumb here and there hardly makes up for it.
housing items are death items on a timer...how about you at least half the value on quest items on pvp server...why would you quest for a 20,000 orb unless you were low on DI's. halfed it might be worth covering. it would liven up more quests.

[Hubbell]

Things I like about AC:

1. Freedom of movement.
2. Its 90% skillbased, 10% character based. I can hold a war for well over 2 minutes, although I would never have to, but it requires a lot of skill on my part to overcome the 26second initial forcecast the game tries to perform, and this allows me to trick my opponent into coming close and I can proceed to kill them in a well timed string of casts.
3. Its just so damn fun.

[Mimir]

make all melee weapons viable in pvp, why have useless weapons?
I say we need more randomness in PVP damage, really just because it would make DT even more chaotic thoseand removing all houseing barriers in DT would be nice, I miss the days of hanging around some stupid town all day fighting off raiders

[Dougie]

I like killing and dying by anyone no matter what level, circumstances, allegiance etc.

I like the freedom of movement in combat, gives me a feel of realistic control. AC2 sucked for that.

I like the DI system as it is, as there is still a good chance to get something valuable from someone but i can for the most part protect my own valuables.

[slaven]

all the people saying remove housing barrier Must own a villa or mansion... Everyone on DT has mules.. How would you like it if someone killed your mule when u logged in to clear your chest of loot? well that will happen if they take out house barriers theirs alot of people out their who will start heading into peoples houses in order to kill their Mules... Don't say it wont happen because you all know theirs alot of people on the server who think like that.. I feel house barrier should stay in game for the simple fact that i like having a place my Mule can sit and not get raped by a lvl 126 seeinga s how he isn't Ment or made for combat.

ALso An idea for making towns more valuable you could give the towns in dires their old sell rates (Wich was 120% i think?) back and that would boost pvsp action at these i would think. Fort tethana used to have lots of battles because of it's sell rate now ur lucky to see anyone their if u go, But ab is still a hot spot as we all know :) Having candeth as the only place with a decent sellrate is just crazy... With 1 us people who have a 56k and play this game Gave up on it after a few weeks of lagging anytime their was a fight. and for those of you with cable or better 5% packet loss i consider playable it's when i hit 20% that i have problems :)

thought about something else The fact that people can slide across barriers and cast a spell should be blocked this would make mansions/villa raids more interesting as your opponet can't slide across and get an "edge" by having u vulned b4 they get rdy for combat.

[Hubbell]

I pk'ed on DT for 2 years since I started dt, then the last 4 months I've played SC. I haven't played with anything but 56k. Once you get used to the lag you can fight with it instead of it fighting you, if you can understand that. you learn how to use it to your advantage and how to time your moves. Turn your POV to top down with 5 on the numpad and fight, its SO MUCH less 'lag' which is mostly graphics lag. Its the only way I fight now and I get 0 lag

[Ryakki]

Melees and archers just need more freedom of movement, and afew bug fixes (not being able to break sticky properly). I've been pking 126+ archers/melees in a robe (al 150 slasher) lately and doing just fine because honestly, as a mage, no matter how much damage they do their extreme movement limitations really limit their ability to win.

I also play a melee, and know that at least personally, I'd love it to gain freedom of movement and get some bugs fixed, in return for reduced DoT.

Yes, I do pkl on a white world, but I've also pk'd on DT for years and years under various names (Ryakki is my newest newbie, truth be told), since about the time bandits came out... stooping to cheap insults won't give your point of view more weight Hubbel.

And in case it comes up, I'm some some peace loving anti either, I'm completely independant.

[Spike Lady]

What is good about PvP is the ability to have anyone fight anyone at any time. The ability to out fight your oppenent.

It "IS" about what items you have and what level you are though.

PvP in AC is the best out there due to the ability that anyone can do it and there are no real restrictions to it.

The ability to control areas/hunting spots is great. This is both a positive and a negative and here is why. Only those that have a strong monarchy can control high exp dungeons for any length of time and therefore only those monarchies will have the high level toons. Or it will just take 2-3 times longer to reach that high level at some other less productive dungeon.

There are several KEY issues that are keeping the population down on DT.

1) Every new player is killed at the outpost in seconds from entering. And over and over again. Bah, this is no fun..I'll go back to <insert other world here>.

2) 80% of the population on DT is already of extreme level (100+). The ability to fight anyone is good, but for those that can not play 8 hrs every day will not get to those high levels and therefore can NOT compete with those that do play 8 hrs a day. The casual player will not be able to compete on DT due to the shear number of hours put in.
A lvl 50 toon will have NO CHANCE IN HELL of beating a lvl 150. It doesn't matter what class they are.. The level 50 will NOT have the equipment needed to have a fair fight.


3) Archers are NOT viable templates. There are only 2 types of toons on DT nowadays. Mages and sword toons. There ARE no other templates that are viable. (this is my opinion)
Basically, the majority (70% (I'm guessing)) are mages. (why is that?)


Now, there is only one other thing that I can think of that makes the pvp not as good as it could be. That is the forced lag caused by clients that are sending more infomation to the server than is the norm. When the server has to keep track of both movement and actions simultaneously, then you will be forcing lag onto other people. Maybe this is why the lag has been so elusive to the dev team. (just a thought).


Other than the above, I think that the PvP is pretty good as it is...it DOES need to be tweaked a little here and there, but overall, the basic PvP mechanics are fine.

[CouchAttack]

Spike, besides the fact that you called characters Toons, it was a good post :p

[Spike Lady]

ok..how about yutes? oh..excuse me..yoouuutthhhss... :-)

some habits are hard to rid oneself of.

Toons, chars, avatars..it's all the same.

[CouchAttack]

I would like to point out that that is one of the best movies ever.

[Ryakki]

I guess being able to fight anyone at any time is another cool feature, although I really should get some kind of penalty for killing a newbie, no matter how annoying they are... DT is about challenge, and although being killed by dots 100+ levels higher makes things hard, fighting a toon 100+ levels higher is not a challenge, it's just impossible and not in any fashion an enjoyable or (from a developer standpoint) desireable part of pvp. And, from the other POV, killing a dot 100+ levels below you is no kind of challenge either.

Some kind of penalty, such as a bit of VP, for killing someone, say, 30+ levels lower would really help with the newb-scaring aspect that helps keep our population so low... and really, is the fear of 5% VP going to make anyone hesitate in a situation where a person really deserves it?

[Ayatollah]

If you are a PKL noob, you have no idea because 1) your a noob to the pk scene and 2) you probably have never experienced thrills of being a PK, where you give it your best to keep your items.


Only thing I like is the speed and excitment. Pk would be alittle better if Turbine actually listened to the DT community and not catering to o.0s all the time.

[CouchAttack]

Agree to the above post 100%

[Aztek]

Vitae for killing someone lower then you?

Thats the kind of attitude that I hope turbine does NOT cater too.

[Spike Lady]

One semi-soultion would be to have the ability to do those things that we used to use to get away from a fight if the level range is too great.

If you are a level 20 and some lvl 120 rolls up, you should be able to portal out right away. No 20 second delay etc...

I am in favor of having all those timers removed anyway. The only people it benefits are those that have a 95+% chance of winning the fight. You should ALWAYS have a means of escape.
The only one that I think needs to be left in is a 10 second delay to logout after entering a portal. i.e. portal logging.

One of the best features from before the changes was the ability to get out of a battle when the odds were 100% against you.

Say you portal to a spot and see 6-9 red dots (gank squad). Today = you are dead. NO CONTEST
Old days = you could portal out.

Bring that back!

[Virindi Clown]

If there were no timers, you would never kill a single person as it is.

Probably more than half of people escape from fights as it is.

Be logical. You almost can't kill someone with 400 health, and you will NEVER do it again if they can just recall away.

[Ibn]

This has always been, in my opinion, one of the interesting dichotomies of DT...

Let's say you have someone who portals into a dungeon and finds six hostiles waiting for him. Should this person be able to get away?

There are a lot of people who would say, "Yes! This is a completely unfair fight and he should have the opportunity, through skill, to escape."

There are a lot of people who would say, "No! Why should any one player be able to escape a 6-on-1 situation? If anyone can just run away, what's the point?"

I think the solution lies somewhere in between. For example, maybe you shouldn't be able to escape 6 on 1, but a sufficiently skilled player can find a way to escape 3 sufficiently unskilled players? Something like that?

[lazy-dt]

perhaps ibn

[Mage_of_Dereth]

ya but how are u going to determine whose on ur side and whose not. That will also completely eliminate controlling a drop. If a lvl 20 is being chased by a 120 what has the lvl 20 got to lose? Just dont be near lvl 120s that are gonna kill you when your a lower level.

[Ayatollah]

I have escaped 7 on 1s in sub tons of times. Its easy if you can shake people up.

[Virindi Clown]

I think being able to escape a ton of people because it is "unfair" is a really, really bad way to look at it.

You can still recall out of a ganked drop very easily, and even if you don't, chances are you can run away, spin jump, and recall since you have your wand out. You can also do stam to health really fast and god mode elixirs.

Yeah, that might involve some alleged "exploits," but they're part of the game, one way or another.

If you are going to say it is unfair to use exploits, and that there are an unfair amount of people attacking you, then common sense says do whatever you can to get away if its there to use.

Also, letting people escape just encourages people to avoid eachother altogether. If a drop was camped by 10+ people and everyone could always escape if they came in alone and found themselves severely outnumbered, no one would be compelled to fight back. Personally, if I am KILLED by some guys camping something, I will want to go kill them back. It's DT, that's the idea. Instead, people would all just go off to places they could have to themselves.

I feel like there are far too many ways to escape as it is.

[lazy-dt]

its not hard to get out of ganks/circles, all you need to do is while in portal space get rdy to recall and hit End a few hundred times and when you get out of portal space hit it before they hit you and your gone.

[Virindi Clown]

That and the combination of spin jump and god moding elixirs are why I feel there are too many ways to escape. If I really want to, I can usually escape without doing something like that by using the terrain and spells to my advantage. Mashing recall or throwing exploit upon exploit does not take any skill. You will just plain escape, almost regardless of what happens.

What would be cool is if simply jumping broke a melee's sticky (spin jump basically uses lag to lose them) without taking massive stamina and god moding of secondary attribute recovering items was limited by a failure radius (healing and casting have it for that reason, what's the deal there?).

That would stop people from using those things to just full heal and jump back into a fight.

As for recalling out of a ganked drop, I was under the impression that the PK timer was originally supposed to keep you from instantly recalling. Obviously it doesn't, and that might be a bad thing, anyways.

A better way to go about it might be that if you didn't move from where you dropped, you could still recall even after being hit.

As much as I am not for people being able to escape whenever they want, a camped drop is still just a pointless gank devoid of any skillful fighting, and that should NOT be encouraged.

[Ryakki]

A gank squad *should* be useless. It should not, in any way, shape, or form be an encouraged feature of DT... and recall timers benefit gank squads and only them, end of story.

In a fair fight, no-one knows who will win until the last possible second... no timers needed. All timers do is make large groups pursuing single people more effective, which is, on every level, a horrible idea.

Now p-logging... yeah, bad thing, no doubt... but timers as a whole? Eat shadow poop and die.


As for a VP penalty for newbie killing, why not? If some newbie is annoying you, kill him, end of story. 5% VP is nothing to get rid of. On the other hand, people who do nothing but camp newb outposts, well, they'll be doing it with 40% VP, and can you really feel sorry for them? There need to be consequences for unfavorable actions, and right now there are 0 for farming newbs, which is not cool at all.

[Lutieus]

Killing lowbies is a good form of population control. Somebody has to do it. The lag's bad enough without slews of newbs running around.

[Ryakki]

Lag on DT is always gonna suck, that's just DT. More people on the server means that the devs give us more attention, need I say more?

[Aztek]

A gank squad should be worthless?

A group of players should always be able to take down a solo player.

This is guild warfare not Dueling 101.

Well on DT it is anyway.

Nothing wrong with raiding solo its just silly to expect to be able to live against huge odds when you choose to do so.

[DracheDesAngst]

We like fighting each other and having the ability to use tactics and thought to out fight each other. Or at least we did until you nerfed us with spells fizzling, jump spin, no possible escape for mages, weep weapons, nerfing archers to hell.

In other words, your management has effectively taken every bit of fun out of PKing.

Give us what we want and we will throw money at you for new releases. My god, what kind of management do your people have that they take a good product and turn it way from the desires of your consumers?

Give mages and archers a chance to win a battle.

Update the targetting algorithms to make them reasonable.
Update the spells by removing the garbage walls, volleys and giving us area spells that we can target or at least an algorithm that can hit the barn I'm standing next to, eh?

Give a player equal chances for escape.. ie.. give us a spell to blink or has a chance to work during combat.

GIVE US DAMAGE OVER TIME SPELLS!!!!

Drache Des Angst

[Goddess_DT]

The one thing that keeps this game going is PVP. In my honest opinion people play this game not for quests and IG items. We play to fight and to test our skills against others and to ultimately get better. The reason AC has been around as long as it has, and the reason people will continue to go to other games but always seem to come back to Ac is because of pvp. AC pvp is like no other game around, it is skill based. And that is what makes it unique, but unfornalty when you have skill based games, people can maniuplate it and use it as cheats ect. I just wish we could have ACDT of 2-3 years ago.. When people acctually played to play and pvp and not to macro and get lvl 230 characters. The best thing for you to do

Take thes servers back to 99-00... Thats when the game was fun. Town wars, guild wars, no hideouts, people acctually had central lifestones. Only way we can have fights like that now is if we fight over macro spots. Its just sad

[Ryakki]

What made PvP so fun back then was, in order of importance:

1. No housing - fights over LS's, and thereby towns, was the heart and soul of PvP. Post DM PvP is pk without a heart or soul.

2. Hollows being viable - being a melee meant being a melee, not being a mage who happened to carry a sword or UA along with his wand. And melees were more fun to fight as well, not just play... they had their own flavor, a flavor that made old style pk a gourmet dish. Todays pk is a cold MRE in comparison.

3. Lack of recall timers - gank squads were powerful, not unstoppable.



My suggestions to fix pk, to make it what it once was, would have to include:

1. Removal of housing from DT.

2. A high damage, high mod, rending phantom weapon for both melees and archers... hopefully one that balanced melee classes in a way that didn't force melees into being sword, UA, or useless. Perhaps hiring someone who understood pk would be helpful... I'm available :)

2.a. (alternative) Create a new, superior-to-Olthoi-armor-base, king of the hill pk armor and archer/melee hollows balanced against it. Current armors simply don't allow effective and balanced hollows. Perhaps a GSA/Olthoi combo? Olthoi Shadow Armor?

3. Scrap recall timers. Do it now.

[Dj_Viper]

I quit Asherons Call about two years ago right before housing came into play. I loved the wars between guilds and the politics involved. I was a member of Yukon Jack and it was awesome when we used to go LS at the blood LS to attempt a 3-day raid. My favorite aspect was being able to take over your enemies territory and have alliances with other guilds and such. Although mages were extremely better than everyone else I hear they have been changed slightly so melees can now kill a mage 1v1. When I left a level 50 mage could kill a level 65 melee easily.
The balance of pvp and movement during battle are the best aspects of AC. If battles between guilds and lifestones could take place again that would be awesome.

[TimetoDie_WE]

I like the fact that skill levels vary, and even on a very high character you aren't "unstoppable."

I like the different cast techniques that people adapt to PK, instead of having a different system... some people use delay, other use lag casting... its pretty interesting watching how everyone casts differently :)

I enjoy the way you loot people after you kill them like getting trophies... although I don't think that "Mage Robes, Gems, or other of the same type of items" should be able to be used as Death Items... you should have to hunt for Di's and apply Gold as it's right use :)

I like how the PK scene is relatively balanced with the exception of archers.

That about wraps it up. PK is what keeps me playing this game :)

[ElronOfDarktide]

I love how people now have to use dropable items with decent values to live. The increase in melee damage made it so that mages actually have to use tinked armor + majors and things that drop on death. Its WONDERFULL. Used to be i would only ever get scarabs, heal kits and such from killing people who were not hurt at all by being "no drop"

Good change.

Elron

[Heffer]

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[_b0o]

I've played many MMORPGs and the PvP pretty much "sucks" in all of them. AC's is the only game that has a good PvP environment(though far from my dreams lol)

1. The ability to fight *anywhere*, in lots of games PvP is restricted to zones and people camp load area from one zone to another, and hop in and out off zones, etc. I like that there are no "safe" zones(cept housing).

2. The ability to attack or be attacked by anyone, regardless of level, in many games higher leveled players cannot attack lower leveled players, or have a level "range" in which you can fight.

3. The fact that equipment is not the end-all-deciding factor. In some games some weapons are just instant one shot kills and usually very rare and limits PvP to the 'leet'

4. PvP is fast in AC, you can die in seconds if you are not careful. In other games fights take a while and usually just come down to bashing the other person over and over and whoever does the least damage/has least HP dies.

5. Level is not everything, A level 100 can fight a level 200 and have a chance, in any other game the level 200 would 1 hit the level 100

6. the vast range of equipement. in other games theres usually only the best of the best and thats it. in ac u can go for quest armor, or tinked armor, or majors, each having a downfall and a bonus.

7. ability to escape from a fight(if disengaged for 30 seconds)

8. there is actual skill involved, u have to dodge, have to know *when* to cast, have to know how far you can move, have to balance your hp/stam/mana, have to know when to try for a killing blwo or when to stop and heal. time ur spells, time ur melee weapon charge ups against a mage's spells so u can dodge, etc

9. allegiances. not really anything to do with pvp, but with the pvp community, leads to big multi-person fights over in game arguements, etc with clear "sides"

10. the balance, WHILE the pvp in this game is not as balanced as i wish or anyone else would like, it is far closer to real balance than any other game, where certain templates or weapons just OWN ALL. ac is very close to having a really good balance and hope it can be reached.




now, get up that 'what do u know like' post =P

[_b0o]

This has always been, in my opinion, one of the interesting dichotomies of DT...

Let's say you have someone who portals into a dungeon and finds six hostiles waiting for him. Should this person be able to get away?

There are a lot of people who would say, "Yes! This is a completely unfair fight and he should have the opportunity, through skill, to escape."

There are a lot of people who would say, "No! Why should any one player be able to escape a 6-on-1 situation? If anyone can just run away, what's the point?"

I think the solution lies somewhere in between. For example, maybe you shouldn't be able to escape 6 on 1, but a sufficiently skilled player can find a way to escape 3 sufficiently unskilled players? Something like that?

It is already possible to get away from a "gank"

you either time your recall just right and you will get it off before a melee hits u.

OR as you come in you jump spin, then just run deep as u cna into dungeon and recall. it is very easy to break sticky from melees in most dungeons, walls > melees

if you face a situation wheres the 10+ people in a circle around you and you cannot even jump away, then I think you deserve to die =|




if there were to be any failsafe method of escape the only thing that would be resonable IMHO would be a 5 second "window" after coming out of portal space, in which u can cast a recall(but you CAN still be damaged during this time).


outdoors, if u want to get away from someone, you can, simple as that, im 10 quick and i can get away from 100 quick lvl 200+ melees, just have to know how to run and jump and spin and know how to count that 30 seconds to know when to hit that recall. anyone who wants to get away *can*

[ACaddict99]

I like the cool type of attack mode that archer has.

Where your bar affects accuracy not power.

My Suggestion for AC

1) get rid of housing boundaries, and basements to this effect.

2)This may seem extreme, but narrow down the lifestone choices to the bare minumim. Then make all lifestone untieable to players, but tieable only by the monarchs.

3) Try to shift pvp away from quest weapons, to player made weapons.

* I know that alot of people would object to some of these changes because the game gets alot harder, but no matter how much people would complain, lets face it, the reason people play it is because it is, or was a challenge. They may think they wouldnt like the changes, but in the end they would. *

[Silifi Of Death]

Being able to effect the outcome of your fight. If you suck you die, if you're good you win. It's not just a battle of who has the most uber spreadsheet, it's about who knows how to control their character the best.

So far, this worls good, as long as you have the appropriate damage ranges. Except Missile Defense, that skill is waaay to overpowered in PvP.

[GhettoPhabulas]

Learn how to play an archer and use a notch or 2 up, and missile d is not a factor.

[Silifi Of Death]

Learn how to play an archer and use a notch or 2 up, and missile d is not a factor.


I'm not an archer.

Missile d right now can be used to completely avoid all missile attacks. That make sense to you? An easily dodgeable arrow that you don't even have to worry about if you train missile d and put 50 mil in?

If they don't nerf missile d then archers will be horrible against a target with missile d and they'll have to balance around making an archer hit at fullpower.

But they'll hit the same amount on fullspeed when the person doesn't have missile d. 47 per hit is good... if they were on fullpower. If I could dodge the attack on a melee.

So we have to decide how AC will be balanced... Do you balance around full-power attacks and make archers so powerful that a melee without missile d will instantly die? Or do you balance around fullspeed and make archers suck against everything?

[ChildoftheKoRn]

if you do that how the hell are melees gonna fight archers, i tried to fight one last night with speced missle d and he pretty much owned me, THATS CAUSE I WAS TRYING TO FIGHT EM NOT JUST ZCZCZCZC melees cant zczczc and fight at the same time. All they gotta do is up the accuracy bar, +to damage and a guaranteed hit if they land the arrow

[Silifi Of Death]

if you do that how the hell are melees gonna fight archers, i tried to fight one last night with speced missle d and he pretty much owned me, THATS CAUSE I WAS TRYING TO FIGHT EM NOT JUST ZCZCZCZC melees cant zczczc and fight at the same time. All they gotta do is up the accuracy bar, +to damage and a guaranteed hit if they land the arrow

Exactly, you're getting killed even with missile d.

Nerf Missile d or make fullspeed work better so that it's a viable option to nerf the damage to around 10-20 (same as a melee fullspeed) while not making archers completely useless.

Or, make the accuracy penalty much much greater on bows, then boost the damage of the PvP bows to around 40-50.

[Abukkubuk]

I love creating a mage with specd war, then get him to lv 100-110 in a week or 10 days, then be able to kill anybody. i have a sword toon lv 170 and i still suck on killing mages, but im learning it day by day, but if a mage has more then 350 health i die=) cause i can never make 350 dam in 2 shots (while war's are coming to meh) but i can kill anybody in server even maxed out mages, i dont care for maxed melee's cause many melee's (dont care about lvl, cant kill mages) thats the thing i love in ac, keep it in this way plz.

[ACaddict99]

bow damage 10-20 = i quit ac

[Virindi Clown]

Just wondering, but why was this thread resurrected? I don't think they've been watching it for months lol.

[GhettoPhabulas]

"bow damage 10-20 = i quit ac"

My level 80 archer unbuffed hits for 20-30 against BM armor (hollow bow vs al445), and on gsc 40-50.

"Just wondering, but why was this thread resurrected? I don't think they've been watching it for months lol."

Do you really believe they ever did? This thread was only made to keep us busy thinking they actually listen to us.

[arcgremlin]

if you do that how the hell are melees gonna fight archers, i tried to fight one last night with speced missle d and he pretty much owned me, THATS CAUSE I WAS TRYING TO FIGHT EM NOT JUST ZCZCZCZC melees cant zczczc and fight at the same time. All they gotta do is up the accuracy bar, +to damage and a guaranteed hit if they land the arrow

actually, while your melee or archer character is winding up a shot, you can move, just got to hit w or forward right when it hits the end of the bar

cancels out the animation too which is nice so you don't get stuck to the other person

have to re hit attack after each swing tho =p