Tell us what you think of the Allegiance XP Follow-Up article.

[Ibn]

Allegiance XP Follow-Up (http://ac.turbinegames.com/index.php?page_id=162)

[Theran_Bakagin]

Ibn, you suggested that I move my "grand vassal" from under a dead link character.. I see now why you meant that!!

0 time sworn if they don't log in.. *YIKES*


I feel this is a good change.. just took a while to get the sting out of my tuckuss from it.

I feel this in truth is a boon to allegiances.. the fact that only 4 vassals are needed to make up what used to be 12 vassals... that helps.. both "chains" and "non=chains"

chains will get increased rank out of the same number of people...not a bad deal for them...

overall.. not overly perturbed anymore.. especially now that my powerleveling is done and I have enough levels to move my "grand vassal"

[sylphia]

Well written.

The new system should very well counter the "round robin" patron scheme that quickly popped up. Players can still use it to increase passup to a single person, but it wont be the 90% passup that would lead to insane abuse.

The one thing I dont particularly care for is needing to cap ALL of the factors to get the maximum passup. I can understand why though; you have to get the max to earn the max. I am ok with it, just stil a bit spoiled from the old system. And I realize you guys want to try and keep this whole thing a mystery as long as possible, but given that (1) you have gone to lengths to make the numbers hard to attain and (2) the player base WILL figure it out given enough time, it would be nice to know what the real-time and in-game time numbers are, so we can have them as our goals.

With the required numbers being as high as you hint they are, it shouldnt create much of a problem if you just went ahead and released them. It would also give us a bit of a heads-up to watch for bugs in the system that we can report.

One thing I would like to see added, since it is now so important, is a way for us to see what the SERVER says is our time-sworn, both in-game and real-time, somewhere on our allegiance panels. In other words, I want to know what the server is using as a basis. I know that we can technically figure it out with a calculator and alot of patience, but that number changes each time we log in/out and we would have to recalculate it each time we want to know what it is. Please consider giving us this display.

[Theran_Bakagin]

Sylphia--good idea!!

I would like this more than the "show titles" of my vassals...

I HONESTLY can't recall what rank someone is beneath me with their titles.. and I have been looking at those blasted things for 4 years!!!

Whenever I look at the Allegiance page, I immediately switch to the "show experience" option.... I think I have only had to see a person's rank under me maybe a dozen times throughout those 4 years...

[Escanor]

First of all, thank you for the MUCH MORE detailed explanation of some of these things.

I think the DOB changes are an adequate correction to the original linguistic accident.

I think what is being done to the xp passup is fine; however, you are still hurting trade mules incredibly. Trophies do NOT in any way whatsoever provide an adequate way of gaining xp. Casinos? What good is 15k from a vapor heart when a skill costs more than 5 million to raise? Since you are already limiting the xp gain in this fashion, please, please reconsider your fellowship changes. Allow us to decide if we want to share the xp we hunt for or not; make it OUR decision, please. If I want to share my XP with a non-nunting mule by doing all the work myself, then please let me do this.

I know you have made it more "attractive" for trade mules to get real vassals, but you have still failed to address the problem of levels. I simply can not swear my level 126 main character to my guild's trade mule, he is only 78! However, I COULD fellow with him and earn him some xp, when it was ok for him to stay a very safe distance away from where I run around hunting.

Some say that I could still do this in dungeons, and yes, but unlike many people, I actually try very hard not to get in the way of others when doing this sort of thing, which is why the outdoors was a much better place. I could always find an isolated area where no one else was affected in any way.

[pacesetter]

this by far more fully explains it. some things were cleared up in my mind.

for that, thank you.

however, I still do not like it and as I said in a previous post, I expect that many will be without allegiance.

I hope it works but honestly can't see how it will for me given my actives and vassals. total real time application is broke imo.
most were sworn to me upon creation but will have that cut 50-80%.

for those of us with multiple accounts, it still hurts. we must play a significant time on each character, taking away from our mains.

are the leader/loyaltycaps buffed or base?

[sailacel]

This just came to mind and I haven't fully thought it through. Also, I (of course) have no way of knowing if it is even possible.

What if...
You could have a level 126 swear to a level 78 trades mule (as in Escanor's case above) BUT the xp passup was capped as if the level 126 were level 78. (We all know that most level 126s can make much more xp per hour than the average level 78.)

Why is this important? Because I know of many smaller allegiances that have one tinker/tradesperson (or one of each), but most played characters in those allegiances have outleveled the tinker/tradesperson.

While I think that most chef/alchemist/fletchers don't need a lot of experience to be able to do everything they can do right now (this may change as Turbine adds more challenging tasks), most allegiances would like a tinker who can handle the 8th+ tinker.

If it becomes too difficult to level tinkers/tradesmules, you will see an impact on Dereth's economy. You will start seeing far fewer tinkers who are willing to provide their services for free. Worse yet, you may see tinkers that will offer strangers tinkering jobs in exchange for the stranger swearing to them and passing up x amount of xp. (I can certainly imagine a plug-in being developed to manage just that.) You can't get much more impersonal than that, and I believe that Turbine's rationale behind these changes is to foster an atmosphere of community, cooperation, and humanity.

Overall, I have no objections to the xp passup and fellowship changes. My sole concern is for tradesmules.

[Ibn]

Originally posted by sylphia
One thing I would like to see added, since it is now so important, is a way for us to see what the SERVER says is our time-sworn, both in-game and real-time, somewhere on our allegiance panels. In other words, I want to know what the server is using as a basis. I know that we can technically figure it out with a calculator and alot of patience, but that number changes each time we log in/out and we would have to recalculate it each time we want to know what it is. Please consider giving us this display.

That's an excellent idea. We're already looking at giving you the ability to see your own modified loyalty and leadership (in addition to base), but being able to see the time sworn of yourself and your vassals would be very cool.

I am not positive that we can actually do it -- the way the allegiance object handles time makes my brain bleed every time srand explains it to me -- but I'll certainly bring it up.

[boneyard]

it was already clear for the not freaking out people that the rotate system wouldnt work. further its a nice clear article. still feel some people saw too much in the whole dob issue, but if you guys think this is the best way to work with those people its fine with me :)

[Ibn]

Originally posted by pacesetter
are the leader/loyaltycaps buffed or base?

Hmmm... my gut instinct is saying base, but the docs appear to say buffed.

I'll check with srand and get back to you Monday.

[Escanor]

If it becomes too difficult to level tinkers/tradesmules, you will see an impact on Dereth's economy. You will start seeing far fewer tinkers who are willing to provide their services for free. Worse yet, you may see tinkers that will offer strangers tinkering jobs in exchange for the stranger swearing to them and passing up [i]x amount of xp. (I can certainly imagine a plug-in being developed to manage just that.) [/B]

This is very, very true. Under this new system, from our guild's perspective, the days of free tinkering are gone. WE have lost the flexibility to level our own tinker in any reasonable fashion; it will be difficult just for OUR guild to enjoy the tinker's services; we certainly do not intend to NOT pass-on the cost to the rest of the consumers. Even without plugins, I can see prices like having to earn 1million xp for the tinker before a job will be done, especially the high-end tinker jobs.

Small allegiances have suffered here. As Turbine itself has said, the XP Chain users were NOT cheaters and exploiters, yet some of these actions are most definately punitive; what's worse, everything is being introduced in a very short amount of time! Even if we manage to level our mule so that some of our guild's main characters can swear to him, there went any time bonus for passup. We are being forced to TRY and re-arrange our small guild, AND we are being penalized for re-arranging it!

At least for our guild, this would not be a big deal if the fellowship system was returned to its prior state.

[Yrsa]

Sylphia, I wouldn't sweat the "must cap leader/loyalty" to get to the max thing.

To get to the cap requires 4 billion XP. To get to 90% of the cap requires 900 million XP.

For 1/4 the XP you get 90% of the effect.

For 1/10 the XP required to cap you get 85% of the effect.

It's easy to get a huge benefit to your direct patron without "capping" things. There's also a "marginal" improvement for ever point you put into leadership or loyalty right up to the end.

[Escanor]

Originally posted by boneyard
still feel some people saw too much in the whole dob issue, but if you guys think this is the best way to work with those people its fine with me :)

The beauty of this is not whether those people were right or wrong but that there was a significant number of them. Without exception, everyone I discussed the issue with in game did not like the implication; justified or not, it is wonderful to see that Turbine listened. It mattered to enough people, I think.

[sylphia]

Yrsa, I know how it understand, but thank you for trying to salve the wounds a bit :) I am not overly concerned about it; I just think that it is a bit excessive. If a player has invested enough to get very high scores withotu actually capping them, it would be nice to have the max passup; i think the bar has been raised a tad too high on this one. But like I said, I understand the idea that to get the max, you must get TO the max. Even if you get to only 50% of the maxes in all categories, theoratically you would earn about 50% of the XP your vassal does (how much exactly really depends on how much influence each of the factors have on the overall XP--example, does capping leadership/loyalty count for the same, more, or less than capping time sworn); this still results in more than the previous 44% passup in the old system. And the passup to grandpatron is all but neglible either way now.

[sylphia]

Originally posted by Ibn
I am not positive that we can actually do it -- the way the allegiance object handles time makes my brain bleed every time srand explains it to me -- but I'll certainly bring it up.

If you think its bad for YOU, try the thousands of players staring at their calculators right now and trying to figure out which buttons to push :) I wont pretend to be a coding expert here, but it seems that if the server is already making those calculations (which it HAS to be doing periodically in order to accurately process the XP in the first place), it shouldnt really be any harder to "print out" the numbers on a display than it is to display the /age function (which already updates on its own in the character panel). Even if it only updated every 60 seconds (to reduce some of the information strain on the server), it would be good. THanks :)

Now about those max numbers.... :cool:

[Escanor]

Originally posted by Yrsa
Sylphia, I wouldn't sweat the "must cap leader/loyalty" to get to the max thing.

To get to the cap requires 4 billion XP. To get to 90% of the cap requires 900 million XP.

For 1/4 the XP you get 90% of the effect.

For 1/10 the XP required to cap you get 85% of the effect.

It's easy to get a huge benefit to your direct patron without "capping" things. There's also a "marginal" improvement for ever point you put into leadership or loyalty right up to the end.

*is seriously regretting not having joined an xp chain at some point*

Looks to me like the already-established high levels are the ones benefiting from this. 900 million xp! that's level 85 or something around there I think! Let alone taking into account that there are other skills to increase :)

Still, Turbine feels better, I am sure, and that is a good thing.

[sailacel]

Originally posted by Escanor
Looks to me like the already-established high levels are the ones benefiting from this.

Yep, it does seem like realistically you must be level 126+ in order to maximize xp passup (and believe me, most who can do it, will do it). So the rich get richer, so to speak? Ah well. ;)

As long as I can still pass up roughly what I have been passing up, I'll be happy.

*looks at her calculator in befuddlement*

:p

[Rauth]

The article was well composed. I won't critique the math yet as fathoming the full breadth of the change might make my brain bleed and I have the whole weekend ahead still. :p

I found it interesting that in both articles, no mention was made of rank being involved in any of the calculations. I assume that is because it is not involved. If that is so, it certainly appears these changes will not favor large allegiances over smaller ones. I feel this to be a good aspect of the new system.

Turbine appeared confident from the first article that this was a compromise between not having any passup and retaining the old 'flawed' system. In my opinion, from what I understand from the written presentations, this new system was constructed to retain, if not enhance, the spirit of the patron/vassal dynamic.

It will be interesting, however, to see it in action. Most importantly will be how the change translates into changes in the in-game community and how it affects playability.

[Ultis]

What about the collars and other items that rely on loyalty and leadership to activate? Are they going to be changed to have lower activation requirements?

Would really suck to have to dump 50mil xp or whatever it is to activate a level 6 str item.

[Zedon]

I have a question.


If leadership is not trained on my toon does he get 25% only, or 0% or if 25% is that modified by the bonuses even though it os not trained?

[sailacel]

Originally posted by Zedon
I have a question.


If leadership is not trained on my toon does he get 25% only, or 0% or if 25% is that modified by the bonuses even though it os not trained?

There are so many other factors involved that I don't think anyone will be able to give you an exact percentage without knowing more about the characters involved in your situation (and no one except Turbine knows the exact formula at this point anyhow). The good news is you will get more than 0%. The minimum anyone will earn with a vassal will be 25%, as stated in the first Letter to the Players. Depending on your situation, you may earn more than that even without Leadership trained.

If I am incorrect, please correct me. :)

[kdthradio]

This change is a bit like making marriage illegal today and sending everyone to jail who entered into holy matrimony while it was legal....

I have a plan AC team. I'm going to outlaw fossil fuel burning automobiles tomorrow have fun getting to work on your bikes when the gas in your tank runs out....50 mile commute? adapt my friend it's time to shed those extra pounds. No, Detroit doesn't owe you the purchase price of your car back. You shouldn't have planned your life around something misrepresented to you as a known quantity. Say in the choice? no, there is no say for you in the choice..... Yes, you still have to make the car payment. Yes you still need to pay the petroleum company for the gas you would have used too.

but to the subject of the thread, I like this new article as little as I did the first. it was like "Turbine is sorry you are yelling at it, please stop....er..we..mean that you are upset." hehehe "The outcome remains the same for the change however, how does that make you feel?"

umm......crappy...still...???

Sam

-------------------------------------------------

I feel the most sorry for everyone that went to hell for eating meat on any friday before man changed Gods eddict....wait was that what I meant.? Do they sprinkle water on those poor souls now so the hellfire is at least 10 degrees cooler :P

[Alex deChaz]

I am teaching all my trade mules to fight. I spec their racial weapons and tune their attributes and skills to do double duty. So far it has been fun trying Staff, UA, and Xbow. The mansion buff bot makes this possible.

I would like to see sellable unassigned XP. You go to a vendor and sell some of your xp for a give-able token. The mule trades it for xp at the vendor.

[Cuttler]

Ibn, I understood everything in the clarifacation article just as I did in the first article. But you have stated you are doing this to help the small monarchies out (of which mine is one such monarchy). Again I will state that you are actually harming us more than the large chain monarchies. The large monarchies are just going to rearrange themselves so that everyone has the minimum of 4 vassals and than require certain loyalty levels.

Small monarchies are going to find a more difficult time surviving NOW because we are loosing what little passthrough we had. Couple that with the inability to attract and/or maintain playing direct vassals to the more promising larger monarchies, and there will be very little bonus experiance being generated now for us small timers. Yes something had to be done. But don't state you did it for my type of monarchy becuase you sure are hindering me and my followers, period!

The new qualifications to max passup are based on longer time played, which I agree with, but removing passthough from the mix will not help the tradional monarchy. If you had just kept in the passthrough but added the extream time sworn bonuses you would have hindered the people who've changed patrons contiunally in a chain. Add on a "patron break" negative bouns to work off over time, that gets worse for each time a break was made (no matter who made it), and that would have greatly hurt the patron hoppers. THIS way would have HELPED the small monarchys who's members have remained loyal to one character for years.

On top of that you want me to move my people into a better alignment. This depletes the time sworn bonus to 0 that you are harping in necessary to generate larger amounts of passup. How is this helping the small monarchies? Plesae tell me. Is that fair to expect from us. I have people my alternet characters have been sworn to for 3+ years. Let me say again, 3+ years. Now THAT is loyalty! Some of them are not playing at the moment (people do need breaks). I DO NOT want to remove my characters from under these people and place them under my own main just so I can get what will be crappy xp anyway from a 0 modifyer from having a new patron/vassal bond only to have them return in a few months, realine, and start over with a 0 modyfer again. Right now I have a 3+ year bonds in place. Why are you making me lose those bonds just becusae you coudn't figure out a way to hamper passthough to the patron breaking chainers?

Furthermore, due to the outdated requirements for chosing a patron (which AC2 did not even implement) I can't even move some of my trade characters without somehow getting them some serious xp and you just pulled the fellow leaching ability out from under us. And let me tell you that turing in gromnie teeth and gambling trophies is not going to get my trade mule from 80 to the level of 88 I need him at to get my UA character under him in this decade.

I have played since beta. I have 15 characters and only one is 126. None of the other 14 are even over 100, and now, thanks to your new system, none will probably ever see 100 much less max.

You are doing this to stick it to the chainers, but in the end you are huring the small monarchies who have been struggling to just do what they could to help, and be loyal, to thier friends and their family. I don't like your new perposed system, and after playing AC since August of 1999, this may be the one thing that makes me quit paying you monthly.

[Og II]

I have one question.... This statement troubles me


The average of the times that all the vassals of this patron have been sworn (again both in-game and real time) are at the maximum.

I have a number of people signed to my characters that were friends that have either quit, or taking long breaks.

If I read this right, I am going to have to break any inactive vassal asap or that 0 will get averaged in. It seems to me that if it is not too late to change, it would be much better to take the avg of the 4 longest sworn. If it goes in like this, everyone will have to dump vassals that may come back to the game and find themselves broken. I have had people come back before that I had to release due to needing a vassal slot, and it does not seem to be a pleasant feeling.

[Jet-eye-nite]

I am for the most part a solo player always have and always will be . I am not into your social scene ,too much drama for me to waste my time with .
Now I see you cater to the 126 + again and leave the middle class in the dirt :mad: Again you say O spend your valuable time collecting turn-ins for your trade mule(s) or move them to a casino , I think that is a poor way to support the class .Give me xp for tinkering,cooking,alch,fletch would be a more viable way .
As your new change is coming about you have all but trashed my setup ,which is the way it was aloud but now with no other way to make advancement on my tradesman they are ,whats the word I am looking for O can you say NERFED . But I guess there are enough +126 that have moved to max tinkering anyway so who cares about the little guy anyway !

[vysaka]

“Capped” means that the skill has been raised to a point where no more experience can be spent on it. For Loyalty and Leadership, that will be 208 if the skills are trained, 236 if the skills are specialized.

If I understood this correctly, specing leader will have no benefit over trained after this change?

[Nunki]

"After the original article went out, we discovered that the system we had planned to use could not be implemented because of how the information needed is currently stored."

"Because the real time date that you swore to your patron was never stored in a form we can use, we have to either start everyone from 0 real time sworn, or make a guess."

Did I read that right?? Rearranging now in order to get the jump on the "Real time Sworn to" time doesn't mean anything because those critical timers reset upon log in after the Feb prop?

So the strategy you thought you would implement last month is now void because you never stored the information? Sounds like there was guessing going on in the structure of the original data and code.

Frustrating.

I feel more and more like the people that produce this game are closer to hormonal teenagers than professional men and women. Make a plan, research it and ensure it can be executed before spouting off - you look lost when you don't.

It's still not too late to scrap this plan and make sure your fans really want this.

[sylphia]

Rearranging now still gives you a jump on the in-game time sworn--assuming you log onto that toon for any length of time in the interim. The system never tracked real-time before, because it wasnt a factor in passup; it has no baseline, so that must be established with the patch. Remember that the higher our in-game time is, the more real-time you will be "credited" by the server when it calculates.

[deryk]

When you put this in to effect will the time i've allready spent with my patron be used for the modifier or will it start over as if i just swore to him?

[Digero]

Originally posted by Og II
If I read this right, I am going to have to break any inactive vassal asap or that 0 will get averaged in. It seems to me that if it is not too late to change, it would be much better to take the avg of the 4 longest sworn.
I had the same concern when I read the article. Please tell me this is not the case.




Originally posted by deryk
When you put this in to effect will the time i've allready spent with my patron be used for the modifier or will it start over as if i just swore to him?
Ibn wrote in the article that it will use the time you've already been sworn for the in-game-time modifier, and calculate an appropriate real-time modifier based on that.

[Magik Brute of]

After reading your formulas I have to conclude that you intend to GIVE every charter leadership as a free skill. You may ask why I say this and I will give you the reasons.

Leadership no longer has value based on a Primary Stat so that would make an patron untrained in Leadership unable to receive any xp from his vassels. Reason any number multipled by Zero becomes Zero.

Now one of the benifets of haveing a vassel was to get some of his hunting xp and therefor you did you best to help them level, find gear and give them information. Under the new system you will not have ANY reward for this. People will either take on vassels and LOSE a skill to Train Leadership or they will not take on Vassels and Keep the skills they want.

[the-dark-one]

So... let me get this straight...


1. I'm losing my bonus in loyalty AND leader from having max self...

2. I'm losing my current passup bonus to mypatron, I am batman, who I have been sworn to since last time this year on a chara who's only a few months older than that... all because there's no tracked information?

WTF

How the Fing hell are you guys gonna implement something like this and start everyone at zero.

That really pisses me off.. all these fing chain hoppers/patron whores are going to have exactly the same amount of time sworn as I do, when I've never.. not once.. broken?

********.
Clear and simple.

[DarthMord]

My understanding from the newest article goes as follows:

Your in-game sworn time is figured up. It's capped to the in-game age of your character.

You also have a real life age based upon the difference between creation date and the current date.

Heres my example:

You have an ingame sworn time of 9 days, 12 hours.
You have an ingame age of 10 days, 0 hours.

So your ratio is 95%.

Using that 95%, it then multiplies that against the total real life age.

You also happen to be 3 years old (exactly) in real life time.

Your real life sworn time would be 2 years, 10 months, 6 days. (95% of 3 years)

=====================================

The bad thing is, the above info doesn't help us in figuring out the breakpoints.

One thing I'd like to know is this...

Assuming the following are true...

*The vassal doesn't raise their loyalty.
*The patron never trains leadership.
*Neither patron nor vassal have any buffs on their leadership/loyalty skills.
*All other modifiers (time sworn, ingame & real life) are at their minimum levels.

For purposes of clarity, let's assume the vassal earned 1 million xp. What amount of xp would the patron receive in passup? In effect, what is the minimum passup under minimum conditions assuming the aforementioned passup amount?

The reason I ask is the explanations leave a lot to be guessed at and/or are downright vague and open to multitudes of interpretation. Literally, some of the descriptions posted by Turbine thus far are highly non-committal.

[embien]

The followup confirms: my allegiance trade mule and my allegiance tinker mule are now dead.

If someone can explain how "getting trophy items" can get me 25 mill xp or so to increase my trade skill one point with the new allegiance system, I'd appreciate it. My fletching mule is 290% burden and my tinker is 250% burden--neither could get anywhere to turn in a "trophy" without dieing, I suspect.

I guess I should have joined an XP chain when it was possible. It's clear this new system is just rewarding those who did so in the past, those of us who played "straight" are penalized.

I'm afraid Turbine has thrown out the baby with the bathwater on this one. Let the xp chains continue if that's what it takes--they don't affect anyone except on Darktide, and who cares about PvP--certainly I don't. Trade mules are now officially dead ends.

Embien

[Meri]

Thank you for the apology... it was most appreciated. :)

I'm still not crazy about the changes... but they are a bit clearer now... and I'll just have to wait and see what effect they have on my allegiance.

[MachineOfMt]

I've been playing AC ever since beta and I'm also a long time xp chain member so I'll be affected quite a bit by the upcoming changes. Just thought I'd share my thoughts. I'm trying hard to keep an open mind about the new system but the more I hear about it, the worse it sounds.

My main char is lvl 126 (lvl 206 for those ppl that use 3rd party plugins) and earning additional xp at this point on my main char has just not as exciting as it once was. XP chains had been breathing new life into my AC experience since I was able to hunt with my main char but still generate XP for all my other chars who were sworn together in a mini xp chain (for example by fellowing with the bottom char and hunting VOD).

I can't help but wonder after the changes to fellowship distances and xp chains what will be left for me to do in AC. At this point having played as much as I have I don't find hunting on my individual characters to advance them to be appealing at all.

Patch days are always fun but to be honest it typically does not take me more than a day or two to go through the new content. I had been getting a lot of my day to day enjoyment from xp chains and fellowships. Is this how Asheron's Call ends for me because it doesn't seem like you're leaving much for me next patch?

Having no further motivation to hunt day to day I'm having a hard time justifying paying the monthly fee (which will be increased to boot) for just a couple days of content/playing per month.

Personally, I also have a fear of the following and would like to know if this has been seen as a possible scenario by Turbine. I can easily see these changes coupled with the new server driving away a large amount of the current worlds populations and/or shifting the playerbase over to the new world. I then see the current worlds being combined and some of them being reused as special rules servers. Is this one possible plan or has no one at Turbine thought this through?

I know you guys are trying to do what's best for AC long term but if no one is left playing in a few months was it worth it? Whatever happened to doing changes in moderation? Were there any recent surveys to determine how the current player base felt about all this or is that irrelevent? I know there has always been a very small but very vocal group of anti-xp chain players, but maybe there are many who are in favor of them and you just didn't hear us because we were actually in game playing. Just a thought.

I think this is all a big mistake. The new system sounds great for new worlds going forward as I do think there is a group that wants that sort of thing. But why force it on all of us? Why not let the people that want the new system opt in on a new world? I sure hope I'm wrong about the repurcussions that I belive will happen. I hope you guys have not bit off more than you can chew and have really thought this through.

The other thing that keeps me playing are the friends I've met over the years. A large number have been here from the beginning just like me. All of them and I do mean all of them are now talking about cancelling the accounts from this game we loved so well. Is this really "what's best for AC"? I can appreciate your difficult situation and wanting to make AC better, but you really need to go back to the drawing board on this.

As one last attempt to try and get across to you what this feels like. I'm sure most of you that work at Turbine draw a pretty good salary. You may even be quite used to it by now. Well, suppose we told you it wasn't going to be like that anymore...you've had it good but you're getting ahead far too fast...starting next month we're going to start paying you what people in third world countries make. Doesn't sound very appealing? It isn't.

[AC-Vet]

I have read both articles.....2-3 times each....there are still alot of factors that are unclear....I'm not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing....I do agree the old system was snafu....howerver this time sworn /in game time thing got me a lil concerned....yes I would give up the current system to clean it up for a 90% pass through from direct vassles....but the way its described to be in this article doesn't seem logical....what your asking of me is to buy into a idea that is going to penelize me after 4 years of active playing....your going to take away all my pass up on the hopes of restructuring to be able to get 90%.....with the calculation facters being not disclosed clearly on how this is going to work...I'm a lil concerned here...This time in game, this time of birth, Length of time sworn, persons daily login, loyalty and leadership is a given......what about the 4 years I've already put into the game? you tell me flat out....if 90% is going to take a REAL LONG TIME to achieve why do I want this? if I have to re construct vassle/patron/granpatron.....because you say its time for a change then why do I personally feel like I got kicked in the privates? how is this going to work for me? with having to spend another 4 years just to build to a 90% pass through? I think not...I'm not saying I will quit over this but it sure will go down as a another black eye......you want to change the system? then change it so it benefites people. like give them 90% pass through in exchange for a screwed up system we already have.....I see your point on your article that 1 mill exp earned being passed upwards and turning into around 5 mill....yes thats broken....but why not just give the 90% vassle/patron/grandpatron.....and let it at that...That solves the problem with turning 1 mill into 5 mill and it will only hit 3 chars...why the hell do you want to place all these facters in just to hit 90% mark? I feel If i'm going to loose something, I should gain something back...sure I'll give up chain exp to change to a more productive solution like vassle/patron hunting.....but I shouldn't be penelized after 4 years of game time either....and I'm sure not intrested in waiting another 4 years to earn 90% pass through....I have no guarentees the vassles or patrons I choose will stay around long enough to even complete 90% requirments...thus because they get bored or just quit a 4+ year old game...I'm going to have to pay the price again because of someone else's choice....1 last point to make....I have 5 charactors...what your asking me to do is redo all my char's...and yes I play all 5 charactors....what a pain in the backside to now manage.....I'll break it down for you.....my 5 char's, 4 active vassles each equals 20 players, then factor in 5 patrons for my char's....for a grand total of 25 players involved....so out of 25 players from around the world...if 1 person breaks, quits, or just retires that char....I'm going to be penelized because of other ppl's choices to leave? I have to rebuild my structure again to achieve 90% over a " LONG TIME" to hit max 90% again? I don't think this is a solid structure....This sure sounds like the classic, Wow I'll give you a brand new shiny penny for your old crumpled up dollar....only a fool buys into it.....

I think this...back to the drawing boards again....this plan isn't what I call doable

[sailacel]

Originally posted by DarthMord
Assuming the following are true...

*The vassal doesn't raise their loyalty.
*The patron never trains leadership.
*Neither patron nor vassal have any buffs on their leadership/loyalty skills.
*All other modifiers (time sworn, ingame & real life) are at their minimum levels.

For purposes of clarity, let's assume the vassal earned 1 million xp. What amount of xp would the patron receive in passup? In effect, what is the minimum passup under minimum conditions assuming the aforementioned passup amount?

Turbine stated in the original article about the passup changes that the minimum would be 25%, or 250,000 xp in your example.

I didn't see any indication that this had changed in the second article, so presumably that is still the case.

On a different matter ... I hadn't realized that patrons will be penalized under the new system for having retired vassals. I find that very, very sad. Sometimes we hold onto our old friends, even though they're gone, for sentimental reasons ... and I have known old friends/vassals to come back even after a year's absence.

Does Turbine really think that these changes will renew a spirit of cooperation and humanity? People who cared about that stuff still do. People who didn't won't. I'm sorry, but the truth is that's not something Turbine has the power to manipulate. It's just human nature.

[MachineOfMt]

I think the people that are in favor of this new system are also mainly the same people that will flock to the new server. Why would it not make more sense to limit the changes to that server?! Let people opt in on something this big.

[Escanor]

Dear Turbine,

Are you by any chance beginning to see a pattern to this thread?

People are feeling, well, betrayed. There are so many different aspects of these upcoming changes that have gone astray it is difficult to know where to begin listing the issues. Certainly, plenty of people have already provided coherent arguments here.

Small Monarchies:

Yes, as Cuttler stated, we are going to be feeling this hit quite severely. On the one hand you try to make us feel a bit better by suggesting we rearrange our trees; on the other hand, you nicely reminded us today that we will be severely penalized for doing so. Lest we forget, there is also that pesky issue with needing the patron to be of equal or higher level than the vassal.

Some of these monarchy trees are very, very old, and hence have inactive characters in several places along the way. I have to say, your definition of loyalty is somewhat different than many people's.

Trade Mules:

I suppose that just like those wonderful little pack dolls we received over 2 years ago, come February our trade mules will log into the game to find packs full of vapor hearts and drudge charms. Of course not, but by the utterly light-hearted attitude you have taken towards trade mules and the sheer contempt for their leveling through in-game means, one would think you were about to reward us with some form of consolation price.

More and more I am beginning to like the idea of charging exorbitant prices for tinkering services; when some poor newbie asks me why, I will kindly point them to the last two letters to the players for explanation.


In the last couple of weeks, we have received the following assurances that things will get better now that Microsoft is out of the picture:

1. Pricing is going up
2. The system used by players for the last 4 years is being changed, since it was not functioning as intended.
3. Fellowships altered to remove choice from the players and place it in Turbine’s hands.
4. Penalties for breaking and re-swearing characters to patrons
5. Plans to ask the players what they think, maybe a year from now
6. Trade mules can turn in trophies for xp
7. Great items added to the game …. If you’re high level (did someone say arcane left the building?)
8. Penalties for refusing to drop your old friend, who does not play much anymore

Now, for the broken record:

For 4 years you allowed a system of leveling to exist; now you say it was not as intended and change it, supposedly to nurture intangibles such as loyalty and community. At the same time, you introduce great new items to the game whose usability is based solely on level. It is extremely difficult not to perceive this move as a total rewarding of those who used your system “not as intended.”

My suggestion:

You have left Microsoft, and as such, your salaries should be reset to 25% of what they used to be. As time passes, assuming you all stay in your same positions without promotions, salaries can go up. You can have and end-of-year bonus, but that is only for people who have successfully obtained 90% of their previous salary (you will need a minimum of 4 assistants for this to be possible, and they have to have been employed a minimum of one year under your direct supervision.)

Employees who do not directly contribute to the programming or development of your products, i.e. janitors in your building, security personnel, etc. can turn in a voucher for $10.00 every two weeks; that is their payment for not having the skills to work in the more lucrative departments. Employees wishing to share their salaries with those less fortunate are not allowed to do so.

Anyone daring to equate long-term friendships with loyalty, will be immediately fired.

[Strider]

Ok you asked so I'll tell you, it stinks.

First I've been playing since first month We opened and I don't have a single skill or attribute maxed. Yes I'm 126 but im not 226. Now your saying to achieve maximum passup we need to do this. Who is this helping? Oh yeah the macroers who have umpteen skills already maxed. Add this to the unbanning of all the ones permabanned before and its just yet another slap in the face of non macroing players.

Now your saying we have to boot any inactive or rarely played toons we have sworn or passup from active vassels will be zilch also. If they don't log in after Feb they will have 0 for passup and will be averaged with all the other vassels.

Why do you have to average the vassels? As an example, I have a follower who has been sworn to a friend of mine for a long time, about 2 years. But because he goes away for school and only plays when he is home on breaks he doesn't have much ig time. My friend is gonna be punished by this bringing down his "average" for all vassels unless he boots him? Thats totally unfair and unreasonable to be expected to do.

Now about tinker mules. I chained my clans two tinker mules togeather, neither which can "hunt" to get thier own exp as everything is dumped into only the skills/attribs that help the tink skills. Please explain to me the "other ways" you mentioned to get mules exp when it costs 20 to 60 mil now to raise thier tink skill 1 point. Don't tell me to get them active vassels cause for one they wont have max leadership/loyalty and for two you said would take a very long time for the ig sworn time to max out passup from the vassels. So effectively your making my tink mules dead in the water, probably never to get even 1 more point in thier skills, thanks alot.

I was glad to see Turbine get out from under Microsoft in the beginning but now with these "wonderful" new changes I'm beginning to have my doubts.

Strider

[Rebel Yell]

"And we are always looking for new ways that trades characters can gain experience."

And yet just this month you made those letters no-give. How about some real action rather then just words.

[Emo]

Escanor's message is excellent! It pretty much sums up what many of us are thinking.

In the follow up letter, the only thing that has changed from the first letter is that you are changing DOB display. If, from the 100s of posts with other thoughts and ideas this was the best Turbine could do to integrate player concern, then you are not listening. Turbine seems to have fallen into the mode with AC1 that they did at the beginning of AC2. They are moving down a path and are not listening to their customers. Do you really think that you will be able to grow the subscriber level of AC1 without HUGE support from your player base? Or, is it more likely, that your player base will shrink because you are making decisions and changes and not paying attention to our responses. Look how well that "ignore the customer" track panned out with AC2. The same thing will happen for AC.

WOW beta is starting to look better and better.

-Emo

[StarchaserX]

We will make some sympathic noises in your direction,
those many of you that shall soon suffer our independence.

And in the meantime, (yes, a Mean Time)
we shall do whatever we want to those that have the
capacity to endure suffering until their limits are surpassed
and the servers closed for lack of anyone left
to feel betrayed by a game they had loyally supported from
the beginning.

Yes, I hear it now:
sympathetic noises and behind it,
the sound of a grinding wheel for the knife
soon to call my back home.

I have 14 rules of the restuarant business from my work,
I shall share it here:

14 Keys to Success:

0. Any dope with a checkbook can buy a restuarant. It's what you do with it afterwards that matters.

1. There is no labor crisis. It's a turnover crisis. Focus your energies on keeping your good people and you won't have to worry about finding new ones.

2. Keep it fresh. Keep it focused. And remember to say *Thank-you* These 11 key words keep good people with you and keep your customers coming back.

3. The difference between restaurant reality and fiction is simple:
Fiction has to make sense.

4. Do not spend too much time trying to cut costs without spending an equal amount of time training your staff to sell more and serve better. Restauranteurs don't often save their way to profitibility.

5. Make something idiot proof and somebody will make a better idiot. The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits.

6. We do not own our restaurants. The customer does. We work for our customers- because if we do not satisfy them, somebody else will. And when we are done working for our customers, we work for our employees.

7. Our employees are our first market. Never treat a customer better than your employee.

8. There is a big difference between running a restaurant and managing a business. But do not base your *success* on your profits and losses alone. Torture numbers and they will confess to anything.

9. View your vendors as partners, not adversaries. When someone get something for nothing,
someone else gets nothing for something.

10. Train daily. Never practice on a guest.

11. Our real bottom line is not how much we get from our customers, it's how much they get from us.

12. The customer is not always right...because this implies that in every situation, the employee is always wrong.
The customer is not always right, but is always the customer and it's all right for the customer to be wrong.

13. Different is not always better but better is always different.
I do not know the key to success,
but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.

14. The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire.
If you are no longer driven, find a new way to steer your business. If you are no longer passionate, rediscover the romance of hospitality. If you've lost the spark, let the sheer joy of this business relight your life.

You are never a loser until you quit trying.


There is much wisdom in these words, and there is not so much difference between restaurants and MMRPG: they both serve people on a daily basis. The ones that continue to strive to offer the best of their efforts are the ones that are successful and continually grow.

Please, let go of this dated concept of changing allegiance xp
from 2+ years ago when Microsoft owned AC and you had no will and no voice.

Now that you have will and voice, create a new allegiance system that is Turbine and AC today. Otherwise trying to use an old answer on a present question, will not solve anything.

Everyone here can clearly see current results. Very, very few people are happy. Many are unhappy. People do not buy, patronise, or support a service or product that makes them feel betrayed, unhappy, disatisfied or disserviced for very long.

Good-luck. You already live in interesting times of your own creation.

[Rojon]

My comment on the article is as follows.

"My brain hurts." ~ Monty Python's Flying Circus

:D

[UldartheSkilled]

Well first of all, I don't agree that the post was well-written. Admittedly I was reading it at 1:30 in the morning; but still I think examples would have helped to sort out what was a very confusing post.

With that said, though; I agree with the comments made by others above regarding mules. I'm now trying to level my mule (through a chain) so I can get him high enough so that a friend's toon can swear to him directly. I'm not sure that I can succeed, but I'm forced by your changes to try.

I do not understand why you have:
(a) chosen this problem to fix first; and
(b) are doing it in a way that penalizes those who HAVEN'T used chains to level quickly.

I *strongly* suggest that you remove the rank restriction so that we can easily rearrange our allegiances to work under the new system.

I don't know if you are listening to the scuttlebut, but players of long standing in my allegiance are thinking of quitting the game. Although I'm not one of them at the moment, if enough of them leave I will be forced to consider it.

This game has so many things going for it - PLEASE don't mess it up in this way...

[Cuttler]

Originally posted by Escanor
Dear Turbine,

You have left Microsoft, and as such, your salaries should be reset to 25% of what they used to be. As time passes, assuming you all stay in your same positions without promotions, salaries can go up. You can have and end-of-year bonus, but that is only for people who have successfully obtained 90% of their previous salary (you will need a minimum of 4 assistants for this to be possible, and they have to have been employed a minimum of one year under your direct supervision.)

Employees who do not directly contribute to the programming or development of your products, i.e. janitors in your building, security personnel, etc. can turn in a voucher for $10.00 every two weeks; that is their payment for not having the skills to work in the more lucrative departments. Employees wishing to share their salaries with those less fortunate are not allowed to do so.

Anyone daring to equate long-term friendships with loyalty, will be immediately fired.

That pretty much sums it up.

[Logan]

I think this changes are improving the game and even help small allegiances out.

Just dont give in to the chainers. I think they may find fun in playing the game in a "intended" way

[Julian's Touch]

Because of this added functionality, we won't be able to introduce this feature in February as we had originally planned. Instead, an optional date of birth display (plus optional displays of other interesting character data, such as your age, chess rank, number of deaths, and fishing skill) will be added in March

What about your wife / husband ?
The wedding quest should store an information on your char to display too.

[sionwarwick]

A little background so you know where I'm coming from: I've played since Aug 2000, am a member of a small but very loyal group of folks on LC, and the highest unchained char I have is 86 (I do have a couple in their 120's thanks to the efforts of a couple of our members and a small chain, one is a trade mule).

What I'm seeing here in the feedback is alot of sound and fury signifying nothing. Its a shame that folks have become so dependant on passed up xp, and it is such a point of contention and shows just how "broken" the current system is. I do see what I would consider to be two valid concerns:

The first is fairly straightforward...leveling trade, and especially tinker, mules. A trade mule can accomplish most every task needed at around lvl 50, with good buffs. Tinkering requires significant xp to get the skills high enough to allow more than 5 or so tinkers (with the confidence you won't ruin something you've invested alot of luck, time and material into already). The grommie teeth are a decent way to get xp, but the whole random drop thing is an extremely annoying way to obtain the ability to do that. Why not have something similar to the title quest, where you just assemble purchased pieces? And give significant xp enough to make it worth while (perhaps just give a pt in the skill that a piece was assembled for?)

The second concern I see is actually a set of circumstances that has some folks, including myself, feeling left out and left behind. AC1 is stuck in a Catch 22 of level (and thus xp passup) being of supreme importantance, because most of the new content is being focused to those of extremely high level (and a crimped hat and one of the ugliest dresses in-game will hardly make up for it). Just go to your favorite patch page and look at the levels of all the creatures introduced this month. And the quests in one of the starter towns, Shoushi, have been upgraded out of what I'd call newbie range. And the all-new creature, the margul, isn't even available to anyone who can't handle the new Caul. I took my lvl 125 melee to the Caul to specifically see the margul, and couldn't even hit many of the mobs there, let alone make it to the area where the marguls were. This new hunting area has removed a place mid-high levels could play and has rewarded those of EXTREMELY high level. Folks who will not or cannot take advantage of the xp "exploits" are left out. This has been the case for a long time.

What concerns me, and I think many others who have not gotten on the xp/level treadmill, is that the new content in AC1 will continue on the current pattern, and we will be permanently left out of it. Frankly, I could care less about passup, other than it has allowed me to try new things, and participate in quests I might not have had access to. If the allegiance and fellowship changes are partnered with a renewed focus on new, and not just updated, content for those of all levels, I think alot less folks would be as concerned as they currently are.

And by new content I'm not referring to lever pulling and item collecting for the upper level "grand-finale" dungeon, or dungeons with a small window of opportunity to participate in. Rather, dungeons with a decent mid-level-appropriate award (Raiments are a good recent example!). Though I prefer dungeons that are ultimately not upper-level restricted. Then everyone can participate in the content if they like and have the choice to group with lower levels, or solo with higher levels, based on their play-style and opportunities. But I digress :)

[JJC]

Why the need for such a complicated system? Just treat the exp as earned experience and pass it up like it was earned experience. Set that rate to reach whatever non chain desires you have and avoid trying to explain the reasons behind all this hand waving. It's experience points and should be treated as such.

[MaddyFF]

Originally posted by sailacel
If it becomes too difficult to level tinkers/tradesmules, you will see an impact on Dereth's economy.

It will become eaiser or more difficult to level such a character depending on how you do it. For me it will tend to make it easier asI've always sworn an active character to a trades/tinker character for leveling.

But if yo udo it via a "traditional" chain then yes, it will be more difficult.

[MaddyFF]

Originally posted by Og II
If I read this right, I am going to have to break any inactive vassal asap or that 0 will get averaged in. It seems to me that if it is not too late to change, it would be much better to take the avg of the 4 longest sworn.

Or the average of time sworn where it is greater then 0.

[Askani]

I will let the others do the figures with what you are trying to achieve but let you know that I am quite distraught over the changes.

In the past, one or two friends have left over change but now I am hearing from many of my friends, that if all this comes to pass, they will be gone. They have no incentive or motivation to play. We are being taken out of the 21st century and put back to the 19th century. Several are on quests of looking for a new place for all of us to migrate to.

Change is often good but so far, I have seen very little good coming from the changes plan.

I have also found that I have hurt myself by not regularly reading the boards here or on the vault while instead I was enjoying myself ingame and letting a small vocal few change the way I am playing and I am not happy over that. Part of it is my fault, part of it Turbines for not really checking with the true player base.

Yes, we all have different styles of playing and I don't want to go back to the old ways. As others have said and I have said, make the new server a purist world. Let the people that want to migrate there, go, but let me have what I have had and we will all be happy. :)

[Mister_Pig]

Thanks, Over the past month you have made my decision easy to quit the game. No More Allegiance XP and Higher Account Fee?

Remeber Darktide players dont swear to each other to get "Buddy, Buddy" We are always red and we like to pvp.. White Servers Can only level or sit around and emote. Its not fair luckily there are lots of MMORPG's coming out in the near future.

-Pig

[Mister_Pig]

Turbine, I speak for everyone.. Doing this is only hurting yourself and your profits. In a few months you'll wish you did just forget about these **** changes.

[Rojon]

Originally posted by Mister_Pig
Turbine, I speak for everyone..

You don't speak for me, and I resent you're attempt to represent yourself as doing so.

[Yrsa]

Well, I suspect any "stable" player will be able to tolerate a few vassals that never log in again and not have it affect the numbers one bit.

Assume the "max" for average online time sworn stays the current 240 hours.

Well, most of my "real" vassals have more than 1000 hours of online swear time. That means that for each "real" vassal, I can have 3 "dead" vassals that never log on again and still get the max benefit.

Similarly, most of my active vassals have been sworn to me for over a year, so I could have 9 dead vassasl and 3 active vassals and still get the max benefit even if the real time swear time max is something as high as 90 days.

[Mister_Pig]

Everyone on DARKTIDE sorry, Was thinking it and didnt type it in.

o.0's Love this ****.

[Rhodoman]

The apology was pure pandering to chain folks that you still want money from; a signal of weakness of resolve in what should be bold and sweeping changes.

Carve this change in stone (because it's a good one) and get on to the business of policing and enforcing the rules against unattended combat macroing.

Rho

[Flesheater]

I also think the appology was a bad call. I agree that a lot of the people who has used chains has done it in a good way. But what about the chains that havent?

Most off the really big chains where you get loads of xp are pushed by UCM. In some of them you have to UCM to even make passup and they will supply you with private combat macro scripts that will only work in a specific guild.

With that appology you also tell the people that had UCM's pushing xp in their chains that it was ok to do so.

These guilds are now talking about doing cells instead of chains. A group of 11 people 10 sworn to one char. UCM untill one char is maxed then change to max out the next char.

If you ever are gonna make something work you simply have to take care of the combat macro problem or there can never be any sort of balance.

[FmrSentFlatfoot]

Carve this change in stone (because it's a good one) and get on to the business of policing and enforcing the rules against unattended combat macroing.


I couldn't have said it better myself! :cool:

[Hungwell]

I have a question regarding old leadership vassals.

I have multiple toons with x-server trades to get just dummy mules to optimize the old system. Most of them have been in game no more that 5 mins ever. Under the new system should those vassals just be dropped?

If yes, it would seem that the drop should take place prior to the patch to avoid xp loss on your first login. Is this also true?

Thanks for the clarification of the new system.

[Yrsa]

The online/offline numbers are calculated when the *vassal* logs in the first time. If it's a dummy vassal, then they'll have 0 online and 0 offline time until they log on at which time they'll have 5 seconds of online sworn time and quite possibly verly little offline time. My guess is most "leadership vassals" have about 5 seconds of actual online swear time, the rest of the 5 minutes was spent standing outside the Newb dungeon waiting for the "patron" to show up. :)

If you only have 1 real vassal, it looks like you might do well to kick the fake vassals the day the patch goes live (they're still working this month). If you have 3 or 4 "real" vassals who have substantial online and offline swear times, then it sounds like you'll be able to get the max even if the others never log on again.

[Og II]

Originally posted by Yrsa
The online/offline numbers are calculated when the *vassal* logs in the first time. If it's a dummy vassal, then they'll have 0 online and 0 offline time until they log on at which time they'll have 5 seconds of online sworn time and quite possibly verly little offline time. My guess is most "leadership vassals" have about 5 seconds of actual online swear time, the rest of the 5 minutes was spent standing outside the Newb dungeon waiting for the "patron" to show up. :)

If you only have 1 real vassal, it looks like you might do well to kick the fake vassals the day the patch goes live (they're still working this month). If you have 3 or 4 "real" vassals who have substantial online and offline swear times, then it sounds like you'll be able to get the max even if the others never log on again.

I don't think that is the way it is going to work Yrsa... I posted about that up the thread. They said they are going to take the avg. of all your directs. If you have 5 or 6 0 time vassals and 2 or 3 real ones, you will take a substantial hit the way I read it. I asked for some clarification from Ibn on the issue. That is really going to punish anyone that does not want to drop old inactive vassals as I read it.

[Kasar]

I have been playing AC1 for 4+ years. It's been the only game I've ever played for an extended period of time. I've tried other MMORPGs as well many, many other "regular" games in the past which I found did not give me the same satisfaction as AC.

I look forward to the graphic upgrades and other changes/content. I only hope that these xp passup changes don't have such a negative effect that it causes loyal subscribers like myself to look at leaving AC altogether (hmm...WoW does look interesting).

I'm most concerned, as many others, about my tinker & trade characters. I'm also concerned about having non-active vassals (read mules) being averaged into the formula. Am I supposed to break them and leave them in town somewhere?

I have three accounts and don't particularly look forward to having to buy three expansion CDs (if required) not to mention increased monthly fees. But I will fork out the cash if changes made to the game make it better not worse.

In my opinion, Turbine/Microsoft has done a good job of keeping my interest in this game these past years. It's in your hands now, Turbine, to ensure you keep loyal subscribers happy. It will be particularly hard to grow the fan base without our help (or even keep your current numbers if old timers leave).

[Yrsa]

But you're forgetting Og, that there's a "cap" for this as well.

Right now, the cap for online swear time is 240 hours. I've no clue where the new cap is but assume for the moment it doesn't change.

Most of my vassals have over 1000 hours of in game time. If I have 3 vassals at 1000 hours of in game time and 9 vassals at 0 that ends up being 3000 hours / 12 vassals or an average of 250 vassal hours.

If the cap for the effect is 240 hours, then you can have 3 real vassals and 9 fake vassals and still hit the cap with ease.

Even if they double it to 500 hours of online swear time, you could have 6 real and 6 "legacy" vassals and still cap with vassals that have 1000 hours of online time.

No need to kick the couple of vassals I have who have left because they won't have an overall impact.

On the other hand, if you're currently set up with 1 active vassal and 11 dummies you may want to get rid of those dummy vassals because 1 vassal at 1000 hours and 11 vassals at 0 hours would equate to an average of 83 hours of average swear time.

[sailacel]

[Edited after reading Yrsa's previous post. Thanks for the clarification, Yrsa!]

For small monarchies, this will still be quite a hit. If you only have two vassals--one is active and the other is an old friend who may come back someday--then that inactive vassal really does affect passup. This really is a shame, and as Escanor said, it shows that Turbine doesn't acknowledge that there are other ways of showing loyalty, such as refusing to release an old friend who doesn't play much any more.

[Zonomar Xisle]

Wondering what the answer to OG II's question is too.

Also - Why is the new system based on 4 vassals?
Wouldn't it make more sense to be based on a 2X2 system, the same as ranking?

[Ss_]

So now after years of loyalty to friends/allegiaces and yes even turbine/microsoft, I am penalized for...

1 Helping to mantain rank in a small monarchy

2 using chars that no longer play to suport that rank

3 not leaving my monarchy for one that used chains when others did.



As I see it these are my choices stay in the monarchy Im in and take the loss of having vassels that no longer play between my chars(including trade tinker chars) to mantain rank.

Rearange those chars forcing monarch to give up her mansion, in order to optimise the exp I could get on those chars.

Leave the monarchy and friends behind in order to gain the benifit of realigning where I can gain the benifits of a larger monarchy.

All of witch leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth, these changes while all in good intention were not thought out clearly, harm only the small monarchys and those that cant take advantage of realignment, and further degrade the populous as a whole.

Will I quit playing ac over this I cant say at this point, however I guarantee it has surely quelched my desire to play.

[ACplayer]

Lets see...

Make some HUGE changes to the game, then post a badly phrased article on these changes...

UGH! Such things should be edited, double and tripple checked.

Typical...


I agree totaly with Rhodoman.

[sylphia]

The new system is as complicated as it is, because they want to make it a deterent to those who were able to redline it before. It wont STOP them, but it will slow down the process significantly, and it will discourage some of the exploits that were conjured up as soon as the first article hit the boards.

The apology was directed at more folks than just chainers. And the attitutde of that poster confirms that there are STILL players with deep and abiding grudges; the very players with which we were concerned in the first place, and why we wanted it revised. Turbine is not pandering to anyone. They have made it clear that they do NOT support the anti-chainers' views that chaining was an exploit or a cheat, that it was merely using a system that TURBINE designed. Their changes ot the allegiance system acknowledge the need to fix that system, but the second article makes it clear that there was nothing wrong with having used it.

A couple of posters have said they dont understand the new system; one person even said there were no examples. There ARE examples :) You probably missed them or they werent enough, though. If you are having troubles with it, PM me and I will try and help you one on one. I obviously cant answer questions about percentages based on the factors to get max passup; i dont have access to those figures. But I can answer questions about determining your in-game and real-time swear times if the examples provided arent clear enough.

[Ariella]

Nicely put Rhodoman! :)

Geez, reading this thread, should be named XP's Call.

[sylphia]

Ibn, the article seems to indicate that we can reach cap on leadership/loyalty whether its speced or trained simply by reaching the max in the skill itself. This being the case, what does speciing leadership offer as an incentive over training it? If you can reach the cap trained (which if i am thinking correctly would cost less XP than specing it and capping out the speced skill), then why would anyone want to spend the extra skill credits to spec it? I have some toons with speced leadership and loyalty; I want to know if I can go ahead and recover those skill creds now, since it appears they are wasted.

[Lilkinsly]

I'm still fuzzy on calculating real time sworn for those who have been sworn a long time.

Let's say somebody has been sworn for 4 years. They have 2 months of in game play time, spread over those 4 years. What would their sworn timer be?

I'm also concerned about how the inactive (zero) vassals will affect things as well. I have vassals who may or may not come back, yet have vassals under them. I wont just drop them, but at the same time, it will be lame if they REDUCE your XP.

[Clav]

My problem with this whole system is that it rewards those that have already taken advantage of the current system while punishing those that haven't.

Who are the ones most able to Cap Loyalty and Leadership? Those that have maxed or near maxed their characters. So, in the proposed system they are the ones that will gain the most benefit. Those that don't have the superfluous xps to spend on Loyalty and Leadership, spending them rather on needed skills, will not be able to gain as much benefit.

Additionally, the higher level the character is the more skill credits they have to spend on lesser skills like Loyalty and Leadership. Again, those that have already taken advantage of the current xp pass up system are the ones whom benefit the most.

The proposed xp pass up changes remind me of a Bush tax plan. :p

(Just for clarification, that is NOT a good thing imho :D)

My opinion, for what it's worth, is just trash the whole idea. It's bad. Just do away with Loyalty and Leadership and put everyone on an even footing.

And before anyone jumps all over this idea, complaining that those that have achieved the levels deserve the perks, consider this: Doing away with loyalty leadership will free up xps and skill credits for those that have trained and/or specialized them that can be used elsewhere. So, in the end it will still benefit those that have achieved higher levels while being fair to everyone.

As far as the time sworn/in game calculation, I understand the reasoning behind this. I'm just not sure I fully like the idea. To me a good patron is one who is there to help their vassals when they need it, not someone who's there just to garner xps. If you have vassals that do not play alot they can easily get confused and left behind by the monthly changes. So, a good patron will sit down with them and explain what's going on and perhaps take them through some new quests.

Which is how it should be.

As I read the calculation (unless I am mistake) this in the end impacts the patrons total xp flow from ALL of his vassals. Because he/she has one or more vassals that don't devote alot of time in game the patron's overall vassal time sworn average is below the maximum, reducing pass up from all sources.

Unless I read, "The average of the times that all the vassals of this patron have been sworn (again both in-game and real time) are at the maximum." incorrectly.

Again, a bad idea, imho. Why does time sworn and time in game even have to be factors? Just because the system was initially set up that way isn't good enough reason to keep it so. If you're revamping the system then revamp it!

Again, put all players on an even footing here. If a sliding scale of some sort is to be used then I'd go as far as to propose that it slides in the opposite direction.

A new player has alot of questions and tends to need alot more assistance than one that has played alot and achieved higher levels. A patron and vassal will achieve a state that is one more of peers than a typical patron/vassal relationship. If anything the % of pass up at this time should be reduced, not increased.

(Oh, I know I'm going to get flamed for that one. :D )

Consider, however, that as a character raises in levels they earn far more xps per hour as they can hunt higher level creatures that yield more xps. Additionally, they're more skilled and knowledgeable so they are able to devote more time to actually hunting.

I suggest starting new players at 100% and gradually reduce the % as they achieve certain levels. And yes, base it on levels, not in game/sworn time. Once a player has achieves a certain level, say 100, the amount of xps reaches it's lowest % and remains fixed at that point. The % can be set so that what a player passes up at that point can easily meet or exceed what they pass up under the current system, so a sliding scale reducing the pass up doesn't have to necessarily be a bad thing. It just more accurately depicts in game situations.

I do agree with limiting pass up beyond the patron. That addresses the issue of chains which has prompted all of the changes in the first place. But by instituting the changes I have suggested current vassal/patron relationships aren't negatively impacted.

I'm sure that there are some flaws in my logic, but it sure seems to me to address the issue of chains without causing undue negative impact beyond that.

[Druz]

· The average of the times that all the vassals of this patron have been sworn (again both in-game and real time) are at the maximum.

From what I understand, maybe Ibn can clarify if the below has any merits:

For anyone that may have cross server or idle mules to take advantage of the pre-Feb. patch 12 vassals leadership bonus, would it be their best interest to drop them prior to the Feb. patch to avoid their 0 in-game time (assuming they never login after the initial swear ins) from negatively impacting the overall calculation of their active vassals? Especially, since after Feb., only 4 vassals are needed to maximize one of the leadership requirements.

If this is indeed true, one problem I foresee is patrons will now be very leery on taking on new vassals :confused:

[Tas]

My background:

Started playing almost 4 years ago
# of accounts: 4, # active: 3
# of chars at lvl 126: 1 (leveled him to 113 by myself, then a chain to 126)
Next highest lvl char: 103
Trade Mule: lvl 93 (3rd oldest char I have, approx 3.5 years)
Tinker Mule: lvl 54

After nearly 4 years of playing, I have many fond memories of my friends who no longer play. Many of them had a mule sworn to one of my characters (usually just to get them into the same allegiance). I ** REFUSE ** to break these characters, if it hurts what experience I get, then so be it.

With the fellowship changes you've made it very difficult to level my trademule (which was one of the enjoyments I have in AC).
With the passup changes you've made it basically impossible to level my trademule....

I can NOT believe you just tell us to turn in trophies... HAVE YOU TRIED THAT ****??!!?? WOW!! 35 K experience!!! **IF** we find a trophy while hunting. Go try that, stop going to an admin panel and hitting a button to create a friggin max'ed character. PLAY YOUR OWN GAME, LEVEL A TRADEMULE THE WAY YOU TELL US TO DO IT!!!

**My final opinion**

I think AC is about to fall into the AC2 trap. "we know better than you and we can push thru these things to h*ll with what the players think."

Fine, but understand, when I can't help out my characters or my vassals characters with my passup, I'll be canceling at LEAST 2 of my 3 still active accounts. Therefore, when this goes thru, remember, you have to gain 2 NEW customers just to replace this one.

Why would I want a new vassal EVER? if it hurts passup I'm already getting? Let the newbs wander around themselves, so they don't hurt my "uber" experience.
(btw: Your Vassals have produced experience points for you. Taking your skills as a leader into account, you gain 254,016 xp. : that was the login of my main character ... it's uber, but you're taking it away)

I'd encourage you (Turbine) to slow down and think about what you are about to do. It's a lot easier to pull the trigger than to pull the bullet back.

[TheeAngryOne]

No.

[DarthMord]

The big question I have is where does that 25% minimum passup fall into the scheme of things at?

I understand that vassals will now have a minimum of 25% passup.

Is that before or after the time sworn (IG & RL) modifiers??

If it's before, it'll gut that 25% like nobody's business, especially with newbie swears.

I understand exactly how they are figuring up the IG time sworn and the RL time sworn. All of my characters that are important to me will make out like bandits in that regard.

[DarthMord]

Originally posted by Lilkinsly
I'm still fuzzy on calculating real time sworn for those who have been sworn a long time.

Let's say somebody has been sworn for 4 years. They have 2 months of in game play time, spread over those 4 years. What would their sworn timer be?

I'm also concerned about how the inactive (zero) vassals will affect things as well. I have vassals who may or may not come back, yet have vassals under them. I wont just drop them, but at the same time, it will be lame if they REDUCE your XP.

Given your description, you have the following...

IG Age: 2 months, 0 days, 0 hours, 0 minutes.
RL Age: 4 years, 0 months, 0 days, 0 hours, 0 minutes.
IG Sworn Time: 1 month, 29 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes. (waited for patron)
RL Sworn Time: just shy of 4 years (by maybe a day or so tops).

The server knows your IG sworn time. It then compares your IG age vs the IG sworn time. It gets the percentage of IG age that you spent sworn.

It then takes that percentage and applies it to your RL Age. So if you had 2 days IG sworn and were 4 days IG age, your percentage would 50%. It would then look at your RL age and multiply it by the percentage. If you had 2 months RL age, you'd have 1 month RL Sworn time.

I hope that explains it for you.

[sylphia]

Lil, you need one more factor to calculate that. You need to know if the vassal has been sworn the entire time. For the sake of argument (since this is a hypothetical anyway) lets assume they were created and immediately sworn to their patron.

In-game time is 2 months. This means in-game sworn time is also 2 months. The character has existed for 48 months (4 years).

We take your in-game sworn time (2 months) and put it over your total ingame time (also 2 months). This results in a ratio of 2/2 (or "1"). When you apply that ratio to 48 months, it becomes---48 months :) Your real time in this case is the total real time for the toon, since it was sworn from the beginning. Not much help :)

Lets assume instead that the vassal has only spent 6 weeks under their patron.

So now we are looking at the toon having spent 8 weeks in game (3 months), and 6 weeks of that sworn to the patron. Our ratio is now 6/8 or 3/4. We apply that to the real time of the toon (4 yrs=48months=208weeks). to find out what the total "real time" sworn is, we take the fraction of 3/4 and multiply it by 208, which yields 624/4, which yields 156 weeks. This equals out to 3 real-time years.

The math looks complicated, mainly because yo uhave to deal with some fractions. Its really not, if you have a calculator and understand the formulas.

The formula to find RTS looks like this:
RTS = IGST/IGT x RT

IGST is In-Game Sworn Time.
IGT is your actual In-game Time (/age)
RT is Real Time (your DoB subtracted from the current date)
RTS is Real Time Sworn (How long in the real world you have been sworn to a patron).

Couple things to remember:
(1)Unless you know what your IGST is, you cant calculate RTS. If you KNOW you made your toon and then swore him to a patron one in-game hour after you created him, you can calculate IGST; if you arent sure, you can guestimate but it wont be 100% accurate in the forumla. Currently there is no display in-game of your IGST, so you have to figure it manually--hence my request to have it added to our display.
(2) When you are trying to figure your times, make sur eyou are using common terms. Dont try to figure weeks vs months. Convert your months into weeks for the math portion, and you can always convert back to months later when you have your results; this makes it alot easier.

OK in line with #1. Lets say you know how what DATE you swore to a patron; you can use this to figure your IGTS (you already know your RTS by knowing the date, but you want to know your IGTS for the other part of the XP passup factors). Lets say the toon was created 4 years ago, and 1 year after that (RT) was sworn to a patron, and has been ever since; your IGT=2 months. For ease of math, I am going to convert to months. RT=48 months; RTS=36 months.

The formula to find IGTS:
IGTS = RTS/RT x IGT

IGTS = 48/36 x 2

IGTS = 1.5 months, or 6 weeks.

If you know your IGTS, you can find your RTS. If youknow your RTS, you can find your ITGS. If you dont know what it is for sure, but you can get a rough approximation, you can also get a rough approximation of the one you are looking for. Just apply the proper forumla. I have BOLDED both formulas to make it easier to find them, without going through all the how-to in this article.

[sylphia]

Darth, the 25% fits in at the bottom. No matter WHAT your factors may actually come up to, you will never receive less than 25% of your vassals' XP. If you have one vassal, he just swore to you, and neither of you even has leadership/loyalty trained or even buffed, you will get 25%. As you improve on the time factors, train and pump loyalty/leadership, and recruit more vassals, that percent will increase. How much per factor we dotnknow, but we DO know that when you cap all variables it will result in 90% passup.

But it will never be less than 25% so long as you have a vassal sworn to you at all.

[Piggly WWiggly]

How about using Treestats to help you?

For the players that use Treestats, it is easy for you to look up their RL age and IG age.

[sylphia]

Piggly, you can do that in-game already. It doesnt tell you the in-game sworn time or real-life sworn time, and you need at least one of those to complete the formula.

[Taam]

I suppose the part of the announcement that bothered me the most was the inclusion of all vassals IG time in an attempt to drastically decrease the passup %.

If this doesn't reek of 'what have you done for me lately', then I don't know what does? So what it boils down to is that 'carrying' someone who doesn't log in for an extended period of time, OR, the swearing of additional non playing vassals to our trade mules actually works against them? This change only serves to illustrate the focus that is being put on paying and playing people.

It used to be, way back in the old days, 'Swear to me and I'll give you stuff!' *facetious comment*

Soon it will be 'How much do you play and I'll see if I can fit you in. Oh, you're a casual one or two hour a week player? No thanks, try and find someone else to swear to!'

It's not the players that are drawing attention to whether or not experience is passed up and how, it's the system that is mandating someone to play and play often that I really find objectionable in all of this.

[Hungwell]

How about this for a suggestion. For old style leader vassals, do nothing, drop them or convert them to rank on your own. For real vassals that you dont want to drop but are on hiatus or play only rarely, factor in the xp numbers that the person has passed up. Just an idea to kick around for guestimated time sworn. It is unlikely an inactive toon would be kept in the xp flow of a chain ne way so the xp passed up would be at least some way of indicating that a vassal had at some time been active. The higher the number the longer the vassal would have been sworn, except in cases where the 4 bill pt wraparound had occurred.

I am not particularly upset that leader bonus vassals may need to be dropped but I really will not want some old friend returning to realize thay have been cut from the monarchy.

[sylphia]

Taam,
the system will no doubt have some of those effects. I believe their intent, however, was to break the ones who have maxed out their vassal bonuses by cross-server mule swaps to get 12 ppl sworn to them. These swapped-toons will never increase in-game time (though they can fix real-time simply by logging in). By averaging it out, they factor in all those "fake" vassals. It loks to me like they are trying to promote REAL player vassal/patron relationships, rather than players just trying to max out a statistic. If all of your vassals are real players, who log on periodically and do their thing, they will keep building the IG time as well as the real time, and both of yu will theoretically keep working your leadership/loyalty to max that out.

Sure, some of the chain-types will still max these out, ut it will require more real players, rather than mule-alts that never do anything, because they will now HAVE to spend time in game to max that part of the equation.

I hope that made sense, cos it felt confusing whie i was typing it heh.

[Lilkinsly]

Ok cool, thx I got it now, actually pretty simple really. Not sure why I had such a hard time at first.

I too will be interested in knowing what effect inactive vassals will have.

[Cuttler]

Hungwell,

caculating time sworn off a persons's total patron passup will not tell you how long they have been sworn to a particular patron. I just had a vassal come back to me after being in your guild's chain. The total passup on the allegiance page that he has passed to all his patrons is 2,145,458,765. He did not make all of that for ME. He made most of it for you're guild under who knows how many patrons. This is the same reason that Trubine's guessed calculation of IGST will fail to be even close to accurate since too many other factors, like age and birth, are being used to make the guess.

Not everyone ran a chain Hungwell. And my bonds with my character's vassals and patrons have been in place for over 3 years. Each one's total pass-up is well under that 2 billion that my returing vassal has generated in your chain, and yet I feel those who "stuck it out" in the non-chain guild truly exibit much greater loyalty. And those characters are the ones being screwed the most by this new system.

[Taam]

Sylphia,

The real problem in all of this for me is the following.

I have two accounts and I am in a Monarchy that has a villa that can be recalled to. So in order to facilitate muling, I cross swore them so they could recall to the villa. I don't care for rank, experience passup wasn't a prime consideration. I 'play' one character on each account with one being a bot, the other a melee toon who generates the experience for the bot. The bot has the 4 other characters (they're sub mules, more like mobile chests if you know what I mean?)

Ok, so with this new system in order to attempt to get more experience for my bot from my axer, I have to drop those mobile chests in order not to average down the IG time? Personally? I think that's just plain nonsense! Isn't that a lot like the laws of diminishing returns at work here? The more I have, the less I get?

In cases where people (again, under the old system) have maxed out their vassals at 12 in order to get the same benefit of trained Leadership, the fallout I would imagine will be HUGE and will likely end up costing Monarchs some mansions/villas due to their loss of rank. Imagine the position that the above puts a Monarch in when they have to plead with their clan to accept vassals which in turn will drive down (or have a negative impact on) the experience flow up through their monarchy just so the monarchy can continue to qualify with rank to own a mansion?

Surely there must be a better way of accomplishing what it is Turbine is attempting to do without the potential scuttling of relationships? How about in cases where there are more than 4 vassals, only the top 4 IG time are counted?

Respectfully

[Ailleurs]

Thank you Turbine for clearing up your intent on the DOB issue. Still, it does not have any impact on my feelings about the new changes.

Self-sufficiency will die. Instead of being able to level my own tradesmules through my own hunting XP, I must rely on others to do it for me (and hope that some other asinine change doesen't chase them away), turn my tradesmules into massively-gimped hunters, or resort to turning in trophies for XP.

I have no more incentive to run my buffbot. Everyone in the guild was welcome to use the bot for free, even though only 4 of us (including myself) were chained together to provide the passup. He is beyond gr-grand-patron to all of the combat characters in the small chain, so now he will receive no payment at all. If I reconstructed to give him passup, our trade mules will suffer. Plus, he has at least 5 inactive mules (none of which are mine) sworn to him to have mansion access. That will almost negate any restructuring, unless I drop them all, which I will not do. If I take him to hunt, he's no longer providing the service for the guild.

To level trade mules effectively means to have someone else swear to them. With the combat characters higher in level than the trade mules, the only way to get a vassal for the mules is to either re-roll a combat character, or recruit a newb. Problem #1: how many people are willing to run around starter towns with their mules for recruiting purposes? Problem #2: what newbs?

If Turbine had designed an EFFECITVE way for trades mules to level themselves without having to hunt, then the passup changes would not be an issue, in my eyes. Turning in trophies for **** XP is NOT an answer.

[dirn]

Hmm might want to seriously reconsider the changes Turbine.

You still have time to reconsider and not add these changes. You have the time most of us from what I'm reading would prefer that you take your time and actually look further into this before implementing something that could tear down this game.

I truely hope you all are reading this and the many threads about this on the fan sites. This is not looking like you want to further the life of AC1.

A very concerned AC1 loyalist.

Dirn of WE

[sylphia]

Taam, I understand your feelings on it. It will indeed have some negative impact on you, unless you log onto a mule each night and leave it runing with a "keep-alive" program to get their in-game time up. Or you could do what I did and simply form a daisy chain under your lowest toon with the leftover mules. You could then still recall to your clan villa with them, but they wont be hurting your bot's XP from the actual played toon. Or get some other clan members who dont have vassals to take the mules on as vassals. It wont affect them, because they werent receiving passup anyway, and you wont have to worry about moving the mules or logging on to them for game-time unless said clan members get real vassals of their own.

(catches breath)

We have workarounds; they are just somewhat inconvenient :rolleyes:

[MeTaGarfield]

First:

I generally support all them changes, but it was a bit too much.

Change it so that both inital passup and pass-through is treated equally (with a 50% cap). This way at least some of the experience will come to grandpatrons and monarch while maintaining the relation that no more exp is produced from the allegiance system than is put into it from hunting.


Second:

There are plenty misconceptions, but the most important thing to remember is that every character is calculated on their own.

You get a leadership bonus based on how long _you_ have been in game somce your vassals swore to you, not how long your vassal has been in game. Still, if they continue to use average time, you will get penalized for taking on a new vassal. This should be changed so that leadership time bonus is calculated individually for each vassal.

You get a loyalty bonus based upon how long _you_ have been in game while sworn to your patron.

So if you created your character 30 months ago, picked up a vassal 10 months ago, have played a total of 1000 hours and 200 of these since you got the vassal, the system will assume you picked up the vassal 6 months ago.

Your vassal on the other hand was created the day you picked him/her up, and has played every ingame hour (except for the first five minutes) as your vassal. The system will (correctly) assume that your vassal has been sworn to you for 10 months when calculating your vassals loyalty time bonus.

For anyone swearing after the change, the real time will be saved so they will be the same for both vassal and patron, but the ingame time bonus will differ.


Third:

What really bugs me off (as a programmer) about this is that you have to log in for the changes to take effect, as "the data is not available". That is plain wrong!

All information needed is available within the data base except todays date, and for a migration during patch downtime you can fake current time to make it equal for all.

Actually, I'd much rather do this one-time shot using a special migration script than putting the code into the live code to be used only once for each character.

If Turbine does this correctly, the code is write, run once, delete (ok, save them a month to make sure rollbacks work, run a few times for tests before hitting the real databases).

If they insist on doing this as people log on, this piece of essentially dead code will stay in the system forever, eventually causing what is known as "software rot", where unused pieces of the code suddenly causes a major problem after enough changes are made on other parts of the code.


Three points (summary):
- Change passup to max 50% for both passup and pass-through.
- Change leadership time bonus so it is done individually for each vassal instead of an average.
- Make the data migration in a sensible way while the database is off line.

[sylphia]

Meta, if the server wasnt tracking how long one person was sworn to another in the first place, then that data isnt available. Up until now, it wasnt needed, so its entirely possible that it wasnt tracked at all. If you are selling apples on the open market, you will undoubtedly have some idea of the progrssion of apple prices through a given period of time. That doesnt mean you ever bothered to look into orange prices, so I couldnt expect you to be able to quote them to me just because you happen to sell apples. Yes, I am comparing apples and oranges here :p

Besides, doing it the way they are doing may also be becasue they WANT folks who are using cross-server mule swaps, or who created accounts for free and then deactivated them, to have to actually go out and get REAL PLAYERS in order to gain full benefit from the new system. I personally dont see that as a problem. The allegiance system was really supposed to offer XP only as an incentive to get us to interact with other players. The incentive was XP but the goal was community. We evolved it ourselves so that the incentive was XP, but the goal was just MORE xp. I think the way this is being implemented puts short-term goals (vassal to patron) as XP, but long term goals (member to clan) as community again.

[DarthMord]

Originally posted by sylphia
Darth, the 25% fits in at the bottom. No matter WHAT your factors may actually come up to, you will never receive less than 25% of your vassals' XP. If you have one vassal, he just swore to you, and neither of you even has leadership/loyalty trained or even buffed, you will get 25%. As you improve on the time factors, train and pump loyalty/leadership, and recruit more vassals, that percent will increase. How much per factor we dotnknow, but we DO know that when you cap all variables it will result in 90% passup.

But it will never be less than 25% so long as you have a vassal sworn to you at all.

Sylphia, so what you are saying is that even if I had a single vassal with zero loyalty and I had zero leadership, and minimal sworn time modifiers (IG & RL)... If the vassal earned 1 million xp, I'd receive 250k xp, correct?

[Cuttler]

i'm not convinced of that


It might be 25% passed up and 25% of the 25% kept as the minimum you keep. That would be 6% as the lowest possible bonus.

Remember, there are two factors coming into play. First the minimum loyalty score determines what is passes up. Than the minimum leadership value determines what is kept. Ibn didn't really explane teh "minimum 25%" well enough to determine what is really going to happen.

[sailacel]

Originally posted by sylphia
Taam, I understand your feelings on it. It will indeed have some negative impact on you, unless you log onto a mule each night and leave it runing with a "keep-alive" program to get their in-game time up.

Under the new system, you will see more and more people using exploits like this. Also, I think the new system makes UCMing more attractive to regular players rather than less attractive, especially since there will probably be a lot of pressure from many patrons upon their vassals to (1) earn a lot of xp and (2) stay in game a lot.

[MeTaGarfield]

Sylphia:

Something in the system, somewhere, and I bet it is not the client, keeps track of when a character was created and how long time it has been in game.

It also, somehow, keeps track of how long you have had a vassal and how long you have had your patron, in-game time.

Because these values are actually used _today_. Date of birth is only shown, but the ingame time is used in calculations for leadership and loyalty.

Now, when the server is taken down, where could this data be? Yes, the data base. Nowhere else.

Except there might be several databases, bit that is an implementation issue and of no concern here.

And of course, once the changes are made, something (again, it _has_ to end up in the database eventually, directly or indirectly) has to keep track of either when a vassal was sworn to a patron or how long the relatinsship lasted.

And Ibn was extremely clear about how that calculation was to be done:

guessed_realtime_sworn=(now-dateofbirth)*ingame_time_sworn/total_ingame_time.

Every factor on the right side is known:
now - is now, the time when we apply the formula.
dateofbirth - is shown somewhere on the charater screen I think.
ingame_time_sworn - Is used in calculation of current effective skills.
total_ingame_time - as seen on the character screen.


Also, this is just the time bonus.

The old time (and vassal) bonus was 0-100% for loyalty and 0-110% for leadership.

The effective loyalty is buffed loyalty plus the time bonus.

So with 0% tine bonus, you still get passup for your leadership and loyalty skills.


However.

One thing I just came to think about.

To avoid inconsistencies in the data base, you should really look at both the vassal and the patron to make a guess about realtime sworn and make them use the same value.

And this definitely is easier done while the database is offline than when people log in, or it would not only require you to log in but also to log in at the same time as your vassals/patron.

Right now I think not doing this the right way (while the game is down for patch) went from "unnecessarily complicated" to "outright stupid".

[MeTaGarfield]

Using a keepalive logon to maximize time bonus was a good idea allready with the old system. While leadership would just get a 20% bonus (and cap at a realy low value) loyalty still would benefit up to 100% bonus.

While this is a doubled skill, it was not a doubled passup but it would amount to pretty much anyway.

People tend to forget that initial passup from hunting always benefitted from every single point (including bonus) spent on loyalty. It was only allegiance experience that capped at 200 effective skill.

200 effective loyalty after 240 hors in game would need 200 base willpower.
(200/2 -50) * 4
Without the time bonus, you'd need 600 base willpower... (200-50)*4
But loyalty costs only exp, not skill credits so anyone could put some exp into it to help fuel their exp chain.

[sylphia]

Meta
You are ALMOST right on that. BUt the RTS isnt today minus DOB. Thats your AGE. You use that to help determine what RTS is.

I see where you meant to go with the whle thing though, and its possible they MAY have it in there somewhere. But if they saythe server isnt trackingit, then there is no reason to argue with them over it. It isnt. Rather I think what he actually said was that it isnt tracking it in a WAY IT CAN BE USED. Wording it as "doesnt track at all" may be a bit of a mis-quote, but the end result is the same: they need to establish it for all characters. Anyone who is still active can fix it. Anyone who isnt active--well they will bork it all for you. This effectively negates any bonus a player might have received from "fake" vassals, either from cross-server swaps, or from creating a free account for the sole purpose of swearing the toons in and letting the free month run out, while maintaining all bonuses from them. That WAS an exploit BTW, and i dont feel sympathy for anyone that abused what COULD have been a great new-player recruitment tool to the point that they had to shut it down. Yes, it also is a bit of a punch in the gut for those of us that hung on to "retired" vassals. But we have always had a standing rule in our clan that if a player leaves the game, their toons are removed from the clan. If they ever want to rejoin, they are welcome to do so. This prevents issues like hackers getting ahold of the accounts and creating havoc before we realize what is going on. We have ways of identifying old clan members, and we always welcome them back :) Everyone in the clan knows and understands this rule, so there are no hard feelings when we "clean out the attic".

Sailacel,
this doesnt necessarily equate to UCM. A keep alive program does exactly that; keeps your toon logged on. It doesnt do anythign else. Now, bots and tradeskill macros (and yes UCMs) also do all that. The quick solution here would be for Taam to turn those "walking storage chests" into trade-bots and rotate them out when (s)he is asleep. It shouldnt take long to build up a serious amount of in-game time, and at the same time (s)he can liquidate some of that stock :)

Darth,
According to the article, the MINIMUM passup you can receive from your vassal is 25%. Minimum means exactly that: the absolute least amount you can get. I have to assume that Ibn understands the meaning of the word :D, so yes, no matter what your factors are, you will receive no less than 25% of what each vassal makes.

[FmrSentFlatfoot]

Just like the first time Turbine told us what was going to happen, everyone speculated exactly how the new system was going to work (and I told you, you really shouldn't, and just wait until the new system was in place), and now Turbine has thrown all of you a new curve that changed all the data you "thought" was the be all and end all of how it was gonna go, and here you are speculating once again about an unknown end result.

Even Ibn stated that his brain bleeds everytime srand explains it, and that all of the data isn't known yet, that he'll try and let us know by monday (tomorrow), and through all of this, some people here *ahem* actually THINK they once again know exactly how it's all going to work? lol

Get a grip people... you're not going to know how it's gonna work until the system is put into effect with the patch.

We've already seen that the DOB that was going to work a certain way has been changed (with an apology). Who's to say Turbine won't change something else? They do still have another 3+ weeks before the patch goes in.

So come on.. quit all this guessing, because that's what it amounts to. Guessing what might happen, not what will happen.

Nothing is constant but CHANGE. Get used to it. We've already seen it happen here.

Have a nice day! :)

FSF

Proud member of Asheron's Call Forums.

[Ibn Ghon]

Why do I feel I am being screwed here? Make it a little simpler so we folk who dont play the game on Excel can understand it. Is this really gonna nerf the chainers vs. the people who just joined an allegiance? I think not. The schemers are gonna win, and my trade mule is stranded.

My initial reaction is that I should quit my monarchy, which is not a chain. Is that what you really want?

[Nightstarr SC]

Good letter I understand it a lot better now and its 3am EST and I've had a few drinks.

Thanks for the details

[sylphia]

mmm nope. The system still does everything I said it would in my article.

[StarchaserX]

Here is an ingenius exploit I thought of while practicing Zen at work, *if* (assuming) that the rate of overall pass-up is averaged
by the % of all sworn characters, as it seem to be inferred from discussion on this thread.

2 accounts to start, swear main to a secondary, and below main,
a tradebot/buffbot, whatever.

The goal is not to pass-up massive amounts of xp to my main, but to increase the pass-up modifier . If this is averaged into the pass-up of active vassels, then it will cause a increase of experience my active vassel DO pass-up.

How it works:
The bot below my main runs a macro, say, insta-og to lvl 26, devoting ALL of the xp (or a majority of it) towards loyalty.
Starting at base 25%, just pump it.

Run a tradebot accepting xp trophies included with regular point items. LS in a town to turn them in. Use that xp to pump loyalty.
Softcap means nothing as explained below:

The difference between a tinker/trades and a Kojii modifier is simple: a tinker/trade might reach a point where hundreds of points of skill are needed to reduce an ever growing % of failure to an acceptable lvl to get in the next tink. 4 billion from xp trophies to max a tinker skill, let the supportting stats at 4 billion each, yeah, right.

A Kojii doesn't deal with failure or item destruction, roughly every 10 points of loyalty= 1% pass-up. (from current figures, I could be
wrong). But each any every point contributes towards an ever greater % of pass-up modifier. So 100's of points are irrelevant, since it's a scale of 10's of skill.

Also a Kojii only need to max 1 skill or reach an acceptable softcap ALL xp can go towards it since it's only function is to modify a %. Taking away the self attibute is *fantastic*. Regular players have to devote xp towards other skills and put them at a disadvantage until later, although some may devote maintenance xp towards it. Kojii has no such distractions.

Now what about IG/RL sworn time? Irrelevant.
I run a tradebot for 10 days on each character= 240 hours in game time.
I can max my account for time sworn inside of 2 months, nothing
in RL.

Now RL time? I have one main character, and the rest are mules/bots/ whatever. Just through everyday muling will my RL time go up, logging in and out to store and trade items.
Nothing can be done to accelerate the modifier, but it will go up by itself, of it's own accord, each and everyday.

So, if 25% is starting base, 90% is max, then it should be relatively painless to pump it to 50%-75%. Since the majority of xp is concentrated in the last 5-10 points of any skill.

It takes a little time, but the effect is permanent.
Say I get 1 mule to 75% pass-up, this will modify any vassel coming in at 25% to a nice 50%, as if I had 2 vassels.
Say I have 4 mules at 75% and 4 active vassels at 25%, that will= the xp 8 25% vassels.

The Font Effect diminishes as active vassel % increases, but will give higher than normal pass-up until it is surpassed. But if you are constantly pump loyalty through xp trophies, time sworn is at max, and RL time constantly increases, so does the modifier effect.


Why did I think of this?
Because Turbine only sees 1 version of loyalty.
For them to not take into a very human emotion of sentimentality
of a Patron that refuses to break a long time vassel that no longer plays is completely cold. I have a couple items from my first patron. I would trade much to have one of his inactive characters sworn to mine, just to see the name as a keepsake.

You see, all these esoteric formulas for xp% do not do much for the target you are aiming at. It only continues to hurt single account holders and little people.

I do have 1 126 lvl character (the rest sub 80) I could max loyalty, time sworn takes 10 days, then just the RL mod will rise as time goes by.
I could easily *lease* my services to one person as a Kojii Font by raising the average % pass-up of all vassels.

Heck, it would bring in a whole new meaning to x-server trades by like minded people: we trade characters on different accounts.
We supply each other with comps for insta-og (meanwhile maxing ig time), after a pre-set determined skill number, we log in at a set time to trade xp trophies on our individual worlds, say every week or month. RL time increases on it's own, as does loyalty and modifier effect. If you have 2 accounts, then I can play my main while my other account and his other account, increase the Font Effect.

I also openly admit, that this could be entirely wrong, based on incomplete information. But if it works, then it opens up an entirely new way to exploit an ever increasingly complicated system.

How easy is it for a crooked accountant to cook the books with all the complicated tax laws in place to stop him?

Imho, if this is a workable exploit, then my suggestion is this:
remove the ig mods. Make it start at 10% pass-up to patron that can max at 50%, grandpatron receives at 10% and maxes at 100%. Great-grand patron gets nothing. Have it based RL time sworn only that increases 10% a month. No averaging %. Individual %.

So:
Vassel passes up at 10%-50% depending on RL time.
Patron receives at flat 100%.
Grand-patron receives at 10%, maxes at 100%.

Why? So 1 account holders are not put at a disadvantage.
Sentimental subscribers are not penalised.
If I have a vassel, then out of respect and compassion for my vassel, I will also help the vassel of my vassel and in return be rewarded for helping when their patron was not available.

It also reduces the chain effect, instead of 12 people getting benefit, it only goes three. But should interconnect people enough
to build a sense of obligation, duty, and something akin to community towards people above and below me further than my patron or my vassel.

Probably it can be exploited, but at least it can be equally exploited by all, since it is based on modifiers that cannot be player modified above the norm. Not the best solution but not the most damaging one to little people/small allegiances.

Any 126+ character will always have an advantage over lower lvl characters by virtue of more discretionary xp and all 88 credits to play with. Keep that in mind with any solution.

It will take 5 months for a vassel and patron to reach max pass-up/receive of 50% (patron receives 100% of the vassels 50%).

It will take 10 months for a grand-patron to max received xp from a vassels' vassel. (100% of 50%)

The only requirement is to train leader/loyalty for the benefit.
No speccing as it provides no extra benefit.
Additionally, untrain loyalty to give everyone an extra 2 credits and make loyalty equal to leader at 4 credits.

It takes as much skill to be an adept follower as it does to be a great leader.

If credits are one of the advantages of high lvl chainers, then that is the way to impact the chains over little people. It will cost 8 credits out of 88 to train leader and loyalty. Which they may choose to untrain once their goals are reached.

Characters with untrained leader and loyalty have a flat base of
4%-5% pass-up and caps at 20%-25% as so:

Vassels pass-up 4%-5% to patron, increasing 4%-5% a month until 20%-25% cap is reached.

Patron receives at flat 100%.

Grand-Patron receives at 50%, increasing 5% a month until 100% is reached. Great grand patron recieves nothing.

In all cases, it will take 5 months of RL time to reach the max.
Not too long of a time, not too short.(except leader un/trained grand-patron takes 10 months, as they will probably have less input in a vassels development)
It can be trained or not, according to your play style. Still, everyone receives something and hopefully, fewer people will suffer.

The high lvl chainer has the option of using 8 credits and getting
50% until goals are reached and then untraining, or going untrained to max at 25% and receiving 2 extra credits.

The little guys and small allegiances also have the same choice, but not having all credits to play with, going untrained with leader/loyalty will advance a characters skill set by 2 credits or 10 lvls but the trade off is again, 25% max xp.

Breaking automatically sets the xp timer to zero.


Of course, I admit, I could be wrong here as well.
I just made this solution up on the fly.

[Loreth]

Turbinegames, I'm concerned about your current method for determining vassal-patron XP passup, and hope that you will please consider making additional changes to address my concern.

My concern is as follows:

I'm a casual player, and usually play about 2-10 hours per week (due to family & work). Because of the small amount of time that I can play, I'm worried that I will hurt my current patrons overall XP passup percentage. I DO NOT feel that is it fair to penalize my patron for having a casual player as a vassal.

I'm also worried that my patron may want me to leave, because I'll be bringing their overall "passup %" down. They probably wouldn't be rude enough to ask me to leave .... but I'll have this irksome feeling that I should be leaving anyways.

This new "passup %" method makes casual players the BANE of Asheron's Call ..... nobody will want you, and understandablely so, as you'll actually be a DETERMENT to their passup %.

I hope you'll consider my situation,
Loreth

[LightstarUK]

Personally i don't completely see what all the fuss is about.

but then the game's never been about xp or leveling to me, it's been about the people.

few small things people seem to have over looked...

skill sell back. you need a high level tinker? 100 str, 100 cord, 100 focus

you can take any melee/missile skill you like. level like mad, put the xp where ever you want, it doesn't matter, dump it allll in melee, makes no difference.

sell the skill, you have a character capable of item, magic item, and weapon cap tinkering.

armour's exactly the same, only make an archer style character and drop 100 in end, or move the stat's about later.

Really not that difficult.

--

people seem to be complaining that this is going to nerf the buffbots? how?! if you have a character capable of acting as a buff bot, what more does it need to do??!

"it'd be nice to go out and hunt every now and again"

hello?? you can cast 7's, so you can at least vuln most things. my melee can vuln in Vod, takes a while, but it works!

--

this is obliterating smaller monarchys.

i dissagree

it's taking the emphasis off xp, and putting it onto the people. i always thought that's what this game was about, the people, not a bunch of numbers.

--

with a little thought, tinkers and traders are still effective, yes you have to work to be good, but that's the price of being good, it makes it more valuable. and none of this "i'm going to have to charge to tinker for n00bs" the earlier tinkers don't need that much skill, and when they're getting to the higher stuff, they should be able to afford it. if you can knock up a bag of ws9 steel, then the other loot you're getting can be used to sell as payment for tinks.

--


Personally I support the changes, I loved the days in ac when it was more about friendship than profit. And I will continue to play, and I will continue to promote the game to my friends, even if they take vassal/patron xp pass up out of the game completely.

I agree there needs to be more low and mid level content, and hopefully that will be addressed.

and for pitty's sake turbine, please hurry up and put the function in where monarchs can ban people/accounts from swearing in!!!!

[MeTaGarfield]

I think I could say I agree with Lighstar_UK.

Sylphia, you are highly confused

quote:
Meta
You are ALMOST right on that. BUt the RTS isnt today minus DOB. Thats your AGE. You use that to help determine what RTS is.
endquote

These are the varaibles we have access to now (I'll do the calculation for time sworn to your patron, but it should be no problem to apply the same resoning for time with vassals):

DoB: real time date of birth
now: real time current time.
igt: Total in game played time
igtp: time spent in game since you swore to your patron

Perhap what we have stored in the database is:
DoB: see above
igt: see above
igtpw: How much time you had spent in game when you swore to your patron. (This is a point in time, not a time interval.)

This way we reduce the amount of data that is changed and so reduces the risk for inconsistencies in the database.

But it is easy to get igtp from igtpd and igt:
igtp = igt - igtpw

What we would like to have is this:
rtp: Real time since you swore to your patron.

What was clearly stated (and I have quote this at least twice now) was that to guess how long someone had been sworn to you real time would be approximated with the fraction of your age corresponding to the fraction of your in game sworn time makes up of your total in game time.

Now that was hard to follow I admit, so I will put it in a mathematical formula, the same one I posted once before:

age = now - DoB (as you correctly stated)

rtp = ( igtp/igt ) * age

Which makes:

rtp = igtp/igt * (now - DoB)

For comparision, my previous wording of the exact same formula:

guessed_realtime_sworn=(now-dateofbirth)*ingame_time_sworn/total_ingame_time.


My main claim is that all this data is available in the system even when the computers were turned off and disassembled for the move to the new data center.

No matter how hairy it is, it is no less hairy to have it done while the game is up and running. It is actually _much__more_ hairy to do it that way.

I have gotten the impression lately that quality assurance through healthy system design is not something Turbine uses. On the other hand, after working in the business for a while I can say that not many people working with programming understands that concept. Mostly people make a few "test runs" that even a moderately skilled test technician would frown upon, using polite words like "that is not testing at all" in a very upset voice.

On second thought (I tend to get these a lot lately) it is possible that they will use the vassals in game time and age to calculate the sworn time for both vassal and patron. But then again, consider an old rank mule that got activated and turned pusher for a trade mule. The rank mule has no ingame time for the first two years of existence, but has been online for three hours per day for the last year (1000h in-game). The patron mule has an age of 1 year. The vassal would give a real time sworn of almost three years with a patron that is only a year old! :)

No matter how you do this, there are factors to consider and I will stubbornly claim that the best time to do this is while the game is down.

On the other hand, if no one remembers where the code for calculating in game time is in the source tree and the code was written by someone who quit just after the game got released and written in such an obfuscated way it is impossible to decipher.

Well, in that case my advice is:
Throw out that rotten piece of code and rewrite it now that you are going to do things to it anyway!

Please Turbine, all I ask is that you apply some common sense to your development procedures.

[Graywys]

My input:

One, I play the game as a distraction from the world and the idiots in it. Nice releif and place to unwind. I have established a lot of friends in game. To continue these friendships, it is appearing I need to change to a new game. It is sounding like nearly half of the players in our group or that I routinely play with are bailing out or planning on bailing out of the game.

I for one do not care what Turbine does to the game (see reason I play above). But one would think Turbine is in the game as a business, otherwise, they will not be around very long.

If a business only looks a a small sampling of the customer base (such as the many "yes, I can see your point and I will live with it" and not at their total customer base to see if the decisions they implement are business improving or business destroying, they are missing the boat. Personnaly. I feel lossing even 25% of your customer base is too much loss for any company and could spell the demise of that company. Maybe you (Turbine) have a different business model than I learned about in school, or maybe you are counting on the eggs you are about to send out hatching to bring in new customers? Hope they hatch, I get the feeling you are counting a lot on them hatching.

Just my two cents worth and my observations since what I hear peeps talking about do not seem to match what I see in this thread. Kinda funny and interesting me thinks.

[Graywys]

Throughout history, a monarch lived off of there minions and vassals. AC to some degree was set up that way. One thing a monarch recieved was taxes. This does not exist in the game but XP sort of simulated this.

Taking away the XP passup to the monarch means no benifit to the monarch. Add to that the idea that a rank deeper than 3 is pretty much meaningless, worhtless and of no benifit to anyone makes it less likely anyone can use any item with a rank requirment of higher than 4. No one who wants to progress in game would want to have a chain deeper than 3.

At least that seems to be the direction I see this going.

So the monarchy system in AC1 is a window dressing, all monarchs are figure heads and can not benifit from nor provide benitit to there vassalage organization.

So, what is Turbine going to replace this system with, hundereds or thousands of mini monarchies? Less team work options and more brute force options. Sounds like the Macro players will be the winers in this. More reason to macro than ever if the desire is to build XP.

I for one do not enjoy that thought at all.

There are a lot of people who play AC and there are as many reasons for them wanting to play the game. Even the peeps who macro. AC has looked at this and made decisions to just alienate a large customer base rather than find a method to fit them into the process that prevented others from being penalized.

AC has allowed many processes to become ingrained into the game. And to all of a sudden, using extreme surgery to cut of the arm or appeadage that they decide does not match the rest of the body rather than try to heal it may kill the body they are trying to protect.

I stongly feel Turbine needs to do some serious sole searching and maybe start trying to look outsdide of their little box they have locked themselves in to see the whole picture. Look at what affects this has (really have looking at all aspects and deciding if you can live with the impact or affect). Because I truely do not feel you have done this.

Go to the forums of the individual monarchies, listen to there chats. Because I can assure you, the population in your forum is a very small group realative to the whole. Most people will not go to all forums to post theiir fellings and attitudes. You should do this now before you kill AC totally.

[MeTaGarfield]

Please, please graywys.

Stop mixing macroing with allegiance experience.

It has always been that UCM is the most time and labour efficient way to get experience. That's the way it is as long as there are no articificial caps like "no one may earn more than one level per day real time" (and that cap is attainable in less than two hours of hunting).

But this has very little to do with allegiance experience, exp chains and other aspects of experience passup.

The allegiance system as it was created huge amounts of experience through the use of exp chains. So much that you could level five toons relatively quickly from just one pusher/hunter.

The low caps for the skills combined with high pass-through made it extremely easy. The only place skill really mattered was for the pusher, where every skill point bought for loyalty made a difference.

And the pusher had this experience to spare.

[Graywys]

I am not arguing the point. I happen to agree. You are missing the point. It is all about XP no matter how earned. It is also about the viability of the game.

Tell me, other than for the glory of the title, why would anyone want to be a monarch?
What where the benefits and what are the new benefits to be?
I believe that the idea of a monarchy is dying with the new allgance XP system.

The monarch gains nothing from the system, nor will the so called leutinent positions to be created unless they are no more than 2 up from an active producer. Additionally, if you have a higher level toon that you do not desire to play because you want to work on your lower toon, well, now he will end up penalizing his patron because he is no longer active.

There are a lot of variables in this puzzle and the focus is only on a couple of small pieces and not on the whole puzzle or the effect of the changes on the whole puzzle.

The fact that 50 plus percent of the monarchy i am in all of a sudden see AC as very dull and boring game should concern Turbine. Let me think about this, what has recently changed to evolve this attitude. No, instead, you tell me from your prespective. I might add, most of these people (98%) are not UCM'ers, we have a couple of buffbots in our monarchy. They will do ACM (some of them, but not all). Does not seem to matter, does not seem to be related to that.

So, what is it, I would like to know.

Oh, and by the way, I actually did do ACM on one of my toons over a year or 2 ago. I used OG Mage on him to about level 25. There was a price to pay for that as well, ya, he gained the XP in his mage skills, but no where else. So he endded up sort of gimped. Still is to this day to a degree, of course, his template is granpa mage template so gimped anyway.

As I mentioned earlier, my concern is for the longevity of the game, if game is not a financially viable option for Turbine, it is history!!!!!!!!!

Are you seeing my point yet? If not, then you may qualify for a position with Turbin, I here they are hiring.

[sylphia]

I am not confused at all Meta; yo useem to have ME confused with someone else. I kow exactly how the new formulas work, as posted in another thread. The things we DO have access to are RT (Real Time age of the toon: today minus /birth) and IGT (In Game Time of the toon: /age). We do NOT have access to RTS (Real Time Sworn) and IGTS (In-Game Time Sworn). We must either know or calculate these on our own. Nowhere in our display or commands does it show us either of these numbers. If we know EITHER the RTS or the IGTS, we can find the other. If we can estimate one, we can estimate the other. But we do not KNOW what they are through game displays.

The system has not been tracking RTS "in a way which we can use" according to the Devs. Whether you want to accept it or not is entirely up to you, but I have no reason to assume they are lieing about it. If they say they cant use it, they cant use it. Up until now, it hasnt been a factor in allegiance passup, so there is no reason to assume it was tracked "properly" in the first place. It may have been tracked by the system as a superflous variable, but if it wasnt recorded in a way that can be used, thats that; trying to prove some conspiracy theory among the devs to short change a player really serves no purpose. Its not like it is going to be game-breaking--except for those folks relying on inactive accounts to meet a statistic.

[kdthradio]

Everybody seems to be missing the point that my AC experience is different than yours and yours is different from the next guys. As alien as your style of gameplay and fun derived from it is from mine, I wouldn't dream of forcing everyone out of allegiances because I'm socially inept or hate group functions.

Everybody wants it thier way. we are all paying to play. My $10 monthly vote is worth just as much as yours is. We can drive away all the players that don't fit into our world view, but I guaruntee that if the player base falls beneath a certain level we are all going to suffer for it. Someone who commented negatively on the changes said he had 9 accounts, thats $1,398.60 a year at the new subscription rate missing from the money pool, if they follow through and quit. Everyone is so willing to cut off thier nose to spite thier face over this. If your reply is good riddance, that xp chain guy is gone, then you have no clue about the actual big picture and ramafications of player base decline.

AC has more monthly content added than any other mmorpg. Talented people to generate that quality content are not cheap to employ. Neither is server maintainence or bandwith. If you think this situation is bad wait until you realize that the element you hated so badly was really the one that was bank rolling the fun you were having. How many accounts do you have? I thought I was normal when I had 1 and crazy when I added a second. The boards are filled with people with multiple accounts threatening to leave the game or close some accounts. someone in this thread I believe commented that they would most likely close 2 of thier 5 accounts if this change happens. That's another $310.80 this year not available to finance your game.

I stated before that I am in a 10 toon monarchy all my toons are cross sworn so I don't have to be forced to interact socially in order to get a little steel applied to a shield when I don't want to occaisionally. The 2nd account is an experience conduit so the characters on my main all get some advancement while I run my axer around. I don't macro, I play. I don't want to have to remake my trade mule on my second account and get him to 63rd level so I can swear my axe grinder to him again. I don't want to make a melee guy then switch his stats around at 3 weeks wait per change of 10 in stats then 3 weeks wait to add a single skill, and 3 weeks per skill to drop ones that takes xp away from my trade skills. I don't want to double my in game time in order to have the perks I had playing a single character before the change. The fact is I don't have the time to do it.

I have already prepped my 2nd account to be closed, but am waiting on the outcome of this decision if it goes through as planned , $155.40 comes out of the money pool for this year when that account goes inactive. I'll have no choice because I won't be able to justify it any more. I do not need the storage I'm not a pack rat and I can't and don't want to try to effectively split my time between 10 toons. I opened that account and have paid for it for a single reason, it was an investment in my secondary characters on my main account. If that isn't a viable reason for it's existence anymore then it has to go away.

Here is a fact: There are no new players coming into the worlds at the moment. You cannot buy the game at present. How do you think that this drop in operating capital will be replaced. I'm scared for my game because the zealots are on the rampage again. Look at the whole picture not your little piece. See the relationship you have to everyone around you. I don't like to UCM or ACM. I don't like to play mages. I don't like to do group quests. I also hate Alligiances and group play having such an advantage over the solo player. But your love of all that stuff I hate, bank rolls what I do like about this game. So I hope you keep enjoying what I consider to be worthless if it means your subscription money keeps my favorite game afloat. I also promise to enjoy my game and not give you stuff over what you like to do in game.

It isn't any of my business anyway.

Sam

--------------------------------------------------------

Just because I'm an Atheist doesn't mean I have the right to burn down an abbey, amen corner, basilica, bethel, cathedral, chancel, chantry, chapel, mission, mosque, oratory, parish, sacellum, sanctuary, shrine, synagogue, tabernacle, or temple just because I don't get what it's about.

[StarchaserX]

I forgot to add that a Font character never needs to hunt to increase to xp pass-up of other characters *if* it is true that
% will be averaged across all vassels.

[sylphia]

Here is the prbolem with that KD:

Pick an in-game issue. ANY issue, no matter how big or trivial you may personally believe it to be. Now make a decision on it. Any decision. No matter what your decision was, SOMEONE is going to hold the opposite view and threaten to quit over it. Since you dont want to lose the cash from the money pool, in every decision yo umake yo umust from now on take nto account how many subscriptions you will lose on either sideof the issue based on the decisions you make. If you make a decision to remove somehting that is causing problems in the current system, but X number of players will quit, how many will STAY because of that decision?

Should you let players get away with blatent violations of the CoC, just because you need the cash pool? What about the folks that have ALREADY quit because you allowed it, and how many more will quit becaus eyou continue to do so? How many ppl will come BACK if you change your policy? Or recommend the game to friends again, since things are now being run different.

You cant let the money dictate it, or you end up thinking about nothing BUT the money and the game itself goes in the toilet. You lose subs either way, and the game goes downhill on the fast-track. If you aim more for a well-balanced game that satisfies the most number of ppl AND is appealing to newcomers, then the cash works itself out. If you keep mostplayers happy (without actually catering to their every whim), they keep paying subs and you keep making money.

I dont agree with all of the things that Turbine does, but I think they have the best interest of the game at heart. They are trying to make asmany ppl happy as possible, while still holding true to what they feel needs to be done to properly balance the game. There ARE goign to be casualties on this no matter hwat decisions they make, Folks are going to threaten canceling no mantter what Turbine does, though most of the time its a bluff tactic. For every time it ISNT a bluff, there are folks on the other side of the issues just as serious.

I dont want Turbine to ever start thinking about the cash first. Once they do, they stop caring about the game itself. If they get the game where it needs to be, the money works itself out. You can use number of subscriptions as one source of data to help gauge player reactions, but it shouldnt be THE source. If every garbage-mouth, griefing, scaming, thieving, lieing, cheating player canceled their subs RIGHT NOW, I wouldnt miss it one bit, and I would shrug it off, knowing that if it DID happen, it would make the game that much more appealing to many fokls who have quit, or to new customers--which we WILL have again once the game is re-released.

[kdthradio]

What new players are you refering to? you can't purchase the game, haven't been able to for several months and it appears there is no set date when you will be able to buy it in the future at this point. That means the money pool is finite. Very finite. If it was flexible with an ability for growth at the moment I'd have kept my yap shut. It's part of the big picture I was refering to. One of my co-workers was unable to start playing in November because he was unable to procure a copy of the game. He decided to wait for world of warcraft at this point. That is a bummer because I know how much fun this game is. Right now we belong to an exclusive club that takes no new members. So makes no difference if you can see it or not you will eventually feel thier absence negatively. It will be in the form of Higher lag if it becomes necesary to condense or combine servers at some point to stay afloat. If that were to occur who get's to keep thier housing? I don't own a house but I can see it from that side of it.

I don't understand how using the Allegiance passup XP system as designed (and as it has been for 4 yrs) is a CoC violation. I get the UCM CoC ramifications and I don't like them. (I've heard all the pros and cons as well and still never feel the effects on my day to day playing) The other things you mentioned in your final paragragh, I hate them all too. Lieing and scamming, while morally reprehensible are not CoC violations. It's a Role playing game. Some people are bad people and some get a charge in acting like a cad in an environment that has no real world sanctions against them. Stealing is not an easy thing to do since Turbine introduced secure trading (an awsome feature to be sure) , you have to work at being a victim in that scenario now. This game is composed of thousands of different people some good some bad. I'm sorry to say not all good deeds are rewarded and not all bad deeds are punished. In that way AC is as real as the world with breathable air.

I also believe Turbine has good intentions, though I believe they are screwing up with this.

I posted this part in another thread I appologize for the redundancy but it applies here as well.

What if you hate group play and don't want to join a fellow? How do you get more XP than you deserve for your kill then? What happened to solo play? How about some quests that can only be solo'd. or killer magic Item quests where the Item stops functioning when you enter a fellowship or have any allegiance rank? You swear and it stops functioning, you break and it works again. I think a new server should have Fellowships that only aid in making chat and keeping tabs of fellowship mates on the radar easier. All a fellowship is, is a Turbine sanctioned acceptable xp exploit designed to retard the progress of the solo player (me) in relationship to the social butterflies.

It's too bad the solitary players will never come together to push no xp modification or sharing, at all, ever. That is the only way the playfield will ever be even. All this beef over chainers. pfft! No passup exp for allegiances, at all, ever. I want no group benifits that descriminate against me because I'm not here to gab for an hour or make a lifelong friend. Find out who your true friends are. That's my view. Believe me it will happen quickly when your relationship with that other player isn't based on how your xp haul is modified by the tie, temporary or not, percieved earned or not.

That's my view at this point take all XP modification out and all the 3rd party apps as well. All of it. Punish everyone equally. 3 months from now everyone won't be able to cry when someone who is a stronger player is 15 levels thier senior with less game time because you'll know they wanted it more.

I also agree with your point that people shouldn't make empty threats just to make a point. To that end I cast my vote a moment ago about this issue by closing my second account. If this proposed change doesn't occur I'll reactivate it. I'm not quitting the game, I love it. but one person doesn't need 2 cars, the second is a luxury.

I really am a solitary person and player, and you can search the forums, I only made a profile here recently and posted because how scary the prospect of this change really is to my favorite game. When it is decided, I might voice my dismay over it, if it goes badly, or relate my relief if it doesn't, but then I'll go back to playing instead of this distasteful interaction I'm engaged in right now. I know I'll have an account til the day the close the servers down.

[kdthradio]

my second paragragh makes it sound like I condon UCM I do not for the record.

Sam

----------------------------------------------------

no PS this time

[edumakated]

okay... I think some of you have gone completely insane... but there were some good posts here.

As it was said before... trade mules are still getting screwed. If you want a powerfull trade mule you must either train a weapon and fight thus massivly reducing the xp you are able to put into the trades! OR you have some poor schmoe swear to you, powerlevel and lvl your toon in that manner.

As of right now, trade mules see VERY VERY little xp for using these skills whereas you are rewared greatly when using... say sword to kill monsters. The higher lvl monsters you kill, the higher xp reward you get. Why isn't that the same with the trades? The harder it is to complete the task... say imbue a weapon, the more xp you can get IN that skill and not necessarily unassigned xp unless the skill gets to the cap or somehting else. So if you sucessfully imbue a weapon etc, you get X amount of xp into the skill and so much unassigned where X is MUCH MUCH greater than what we get now.

And as far as the casino's go and other trophies... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... yeah, you go ahead and try to lvl a trade mule like that and have even a DECENT trade mule.... I think your crazy with that statement.

[sylphia]

KD, as I said, the new players come WHEN TURBINE RE-RELEASES AC. We have an expansion coming up, which will require a release of AC1.5 IN addition, Turbine has said several times they plan to re-release AC: DM as soon as they have all their ducks in a row and can do so.

I never said that using the old allegiance system was any kind of a CoC violation. If you check around, you will see I am one of the most ardent supposrters of everyone's rights to do so, even though I dont use the "chain" myself. Violation of the CoC is a totally seperate example, intended to emphasize WHY we cant let the money dictate policy. There are ALOT of players that flagrantly violate the CoC daily; we can't say its ok to do it and chuck the CoC out the window just to appease them and let them keep playing. UCM is a very good example of this, but I was deliberately staying away from mentioning them so as to avoid the inevitable devolving of this thread into yet another pro/anti macro arguement.

As for removing passup entirely; thats unfair to the rst of the server, just because a MINORITY wants everyone else to be forced into their own cookie-cutter mold of what they should be allowed to earn in XP. You may as well try and dictate that players ar eonly alowed to kill certain monsters according to level, and no others, because there wil be disparity just through that. If a player chooses to solo the game for their own challenge, thats fine; its a valid playstyle FOR THEM. But to try and mandate it that everyone else must do so simply isnt acceptible. Those of us who choose to be art of allegiances, whether for the comaraderie or for the sake of a bit of extra passup dont force solo players to join clans; its not fair to presume the reverse, either. There is INCENTIVE, yes. But its not mandatory. Trying to force out XP passup negates one of the biggest advantages of playing as part of a clan.

The better solution there would be to do what has been suggested by several ppl: give everyone the option to forgo passup on an individual basis. If you decide to join a clan but you dont want to share in the XP, then turn the option on and the XP from your vassals passes through you, on to your patron and you retain nothing. Removing passup in its entirety would not "level the playing field". It would only serve to push those who have already soaked it for all its worth that much further above everyone else. And there will always be players who hunt more, in more dangerous areas (for greater rewards) and will thus level faster and get to higher content/better loot faster.

And more to the point, there is no REASON the playing field should remain level. This is an MMORPG. There will always be a fluctuation in the populous. FOlks come and go at all hours of the day and night, and they may play for a few hours, knock off for a few days, then play for 2 days straight. There are too many variables to realistically try and make everyone the same. Aside from the fact that it would be a VERY boring game if we WERE the same, there is no reason to restrict everyone to the same pace of growth. In truth, anyone that thnks that way should be on a console, not an MMORPG. Its the variety that makes the game worth playing. AC's attraction is in the fact that it is dynamic, and that you can mix and match your skill sets to suit YOUR needs. The only way to truly level the field is to make everyone use the same template, and to force them all to remain the same level and to keep them from ever getting any kind of loot that would make them unique. Sorry but I am not into playing clones :)

[Graywys]

Well said Sylphia, I agree with you on most of this. But unfortunately, money does have to play a part in this. Hopefully not too major a part.

My major concern is alienaing of a large segament of the AC population and have them leave. From a business stand point (and make no misteke, please, Turbine is not in this for our pleasure, that may be a part of it), but they are a business and must operate as a business.

If a business operates in the red too long, they are no longer a viable entity. If a business desicion occurs that results in a large and substantial source of income stops, that can impact the game for all of us.

So to some degree, money is an issue. I just hope it does not destroy the game.

I happen to enjoy this game, and I can live with the ACM's and UCM's. If Turbine finds a way to handle that, it is fine. but no matter what you do, they will always be a part of the game. less I am sure would be better.

But I like my decal plugins, I like combateer, AC Monster, oracle, UST, pyreal stacker and so on. It reduces some of the tedium. Is that ultimately going to be a violation of the CoC. I dought it but this all begs the question, where do you draw the line. Just curious?

[Hungwell]

Originally posted by Cuttler
Hungwell,

caculating time sworn off a persons's total patron passup will not tell you how long they have been sworn to a particular patron. I just had a vassal come back to me after being in your guild's chain. The total passup on the allegiance page that he has passed to all his patrons is 2,145,458,765. He did not make all of that for ME. He made most of it for you're guild under who knows how many patrons. This is the same reason that Trubine's guessed calculation of IGST will fail to be even close to accurate since too many other factors, like age and birth, are being used to make the guess.

Not everyone ran a chain Hungwell. And my bonds with my character's vassals and patrons have been in place for over 3 years. Each one's total pass-up is well under that 2 billion that my returing vassal has generated in your chain, and yet I feel those who "stuck it out" in the non-chain guild truly exibit much greater loyalty. And those characters are the ones being screwed the most by this new system.

Not really what I am shooting for here. I am just looking for a razor to split out never active vassals from ANY patron (i.e. leader mules) from vassals active on the server sworn to someone for some time.

to me directly, however this works out wont matter. I will dump my xserver leader mules and convert them to rank mules. I would just rather not have to drop folks that might one day come back.

Maybe if vassals were not counted at all in the equation until they logged in once would work better.

[sylphia]

Gray, of course you have to make money; Turbine isnt a charity by any means :p

The idea is not to FOCUS on that, but on making the game functin properly, and the money then takes care of itself. When you make decisions solely on the grounds of what will bring you the most revenue, your players notice, and it is apt to make them resentful; they will feel that you are listening to what is most cost-effective, and that you are trying to do the LEAST you can to make them happy in order to make you bottom line look good.

You can make it clear that your game has to make money, but at the same time provide content and gameplay that doesnt revolve around that. By keeping the customer happy with a good game, you ensure the market for your product. By catering to select groups just to keep their subscriptions, you give them power over how you run your game, which in turn makes other groups do the same thing. Pretty soon you lose all control of your game and you arejust hoping players will keep paying whie you juggle what is least likely to tick off the most amount of ppl.

Again, make the game something that is enjoyale to a wide variety of players, and the money takes care of itself; you never have to put yourself in that position of making decisiosn solely for the cost :)

[Tas]

As for removing passup entirely; thats unfair to the rst of the server, just because a MINORITY wants everyone else to be forced into their own cookie-cutter mold of what they should be allowed to earn in XP. You may as well try and dictate that players ar eonly alowed to kill certain monsters according to level, and no others, because there wil be disparity just through that. If a player chooses to solo the

Exactly, many of us believe that a MINORITY is now pushing us in a direction we don't want to go.

Just my $.02 + tax...

I do have 3 active accts, all purchased thru a store (yes, I paid for the game in a store, didn't use that download month free thing). 2 of them WILL be canceled, because I was basically using ONE person from a 2nd acct to help me transfer exp to a mule on the acct I play. The rest were just lowbie holding-chest mules.

So, because of this change, turbine WILL have to gain at least 2 customers just to replace the 2 mule accts I canceled. Kinda hard since they haven't released a new copy of AC to stores...

I will continue to play, no argument, but it does kill my trade mule - and sticks me permanently onto the 'leveling treadmill' fun fun

[kdthradio]

Sylphia,

my solution doesn't remove your ability to get more XP than me or hold you to any rate of increase. It makes it so we have entirely the same chance to level at the same rate if our efforts are Identicle at the outset.

Example: say a drudge skulker is worth 100xp for ease of math.

Say I can kill 100 an hour alone. So 10,000xp an hour is what I can make.

(the following modifier I will use is made up strictly for ease of math so don't hose me down with real modifiers, it is to illustrate my point only, the actual could be more or less)

You and your fellow mates can each kill the same 100 skulkers per hour each and make 10,000xp too. only say there is a x1.25 modifier for each of you being in a fellow. that means you get 12,500xp an hour. In six hours you make 75,000xp. In the same six hours I only get 60,000xp. I am being penalized for being a solo player and you are getting a bonus for being more social than I am.

Telling me I have the option to go get in a fellow is as aggrevating to me as someone telling you you should go join a chain if it isn't to your liking to be left out of the extra XP it entitles you under the current system. So my solution is absolutely UN-fair to everyone except the solo player. (no change is fair 4 years in so don't try to say that it will be) It's that way because I'm a solo player, just as you balk at my suggestion because you are not a solo player, so why should your world change to suit my play style.The unleveling of the playingfield should come from the luck side of the game, good placement of that XP, Random generated items aquired and the like not an arbitrary bonus you get for being more socially adept.

If you play 9 hours a day for 10 days killing those drudges you make 900,000xp, If I only play 6 hours a day I just get 600,000 for my 10 day effort. But the playing feild was level. The footing we started on was even and the potential to achieve was identicle at the start.

MY main point is this:I type slow, do not think quick on my feet, and put my foot in my mouth more times than not. (I'm probably doing that now, everyone will let me know I'm sure :P ) If it was in terms of team sports I'm the bench warmer. I want to be the star player like everyone else and get the perks associated with being popular and super sucessful, but it isn't that way. I can't work the system well or network to get ahead. So I solo the game, and I enjoy it, a lot. I don't actually believe the fellowship stuff should be eliminated because I'm a social leper. But what I just outlined would insure we would all start even and retain the potential to get where others have in the game with out retarding potential for advancement based on real effort. I will never see level 100 content, those are the breaks. I'm tired of what from my point of view seems like people's envy of what someone else has. I don't hate Donald Trump even though I am pretty positive he hasn't played completely fair to arrive at his station in life. I don't want him taken down. I really don't want to see a mass exodus over any of this either. I really just do like the game.

I'm tired of my opinion is right and thier's is wrong. Opinions are never either, except by popular vote.

In response to the argument that there is already people who have exploited the system in the game. Well yeah and no change except resetting everyone to 1st level will fix it.

I live in an urban area, in the middle of it is a junkyard. when it opened it was in the middle of nowhere and as time has passed this urban area sprang up around it. Everyone wants it gone. Only it was here first and it is an 82 year old man's only livelyhood and he has passed it on to his son who has no intention of selling it or closing it. If it moves from the family it will be closed because the whole area is zoned residential and at that point the zoning commission can act. They are grandfathered in because they predate everything else here. as a matter of fact they sold the land my moms house is on. I think the junkyard is ugly as hell, but I don't have the right to change the rules on that old man because I hate the junk business being next door.

So I say scrap allegiance/fellowship all together be unfair to them all not just the unpopular and go help someone because it's right. not because it makes you feel good or because you can get anything out of it, but because that poor newb or low level will never recover his stuff with out you. Tell him to add you to his friends list if they want and help them out just because when they need it. When they ask to swear to you tell them no. Tell them that you aren't looking to get xp at all, your just looking for a friend at the most, at least, they needed help and it was the right thing to do.

Sam

----------------------------------------------

Higher power please save the junk dealer in all of us

[sylphia]

KD here is the problem with that.

Regardless of the REASON for why you choose to play solo and not partake in fellowship XP or allegiance XP, it still boils down to YOU CHOOSE to do so. What you are asking is that Turbine force everyone else to make the same choice just so you can "compete" with them. Or rather you are saying that since YOU CHOOSE to do so, that Turbine remove the choice altogether for everyone. If you choose to play that way, thats fine; whether its because you want the extra challenge or because you choose to stay away rather than be ostracized.

Back when I first started playing, I knew a player that insisted on playing the game without a patron. He felt that he would appreciate everything he got if he earned it 100% on his own. I admired his determination to be a "self made man", but he never once tried to force that view on me, and thats why we remained friends. He enjoyed the extra thrill of making it on his own, and I enjoyed the company of good friends.

There is no reason why folks who enjoy a healthy bit of vassal XP should be penalized just because another player wants to "be able to compete with them". Either join in and use the same game benefits or accept that they will always have those advantages over you. Everyone ALREADY has the same potential benefits as each other. Someone has 10 vassals and makes boatloads of XP in felowships? You can too; they dont have any advantage you couldnt also have. You CHOOSE to limit yourself in these things. There is no reason any one else shuold be FORCED into that playstyle.

And believe me I understand the loner philosophy. There are plenty of times when I would rather be out in the middle of nowhere and left alone by the majority of the server. But I wouldnt dream of forcing that on anyone else.

And to make another point, you have said you want to be able to compete wth other players. If you are playing solo anyway, then whats the point of competing with folks you arent interacting with anyway?

I will pretend you didnt mention wiping character LVLs BTW :eek:

[kdthradio]

Originally posted by sylphia
KD here is the problem with that.

Regardless of the REASON for why you choose to play solo and not partake in fellowship XP or allegiance XP, it still boils down to YOU CHOOSE to do so. What you are asking is that Turbine force everyone else to make the same choice just so you can "compete" with them. Or rather you are saying that since YOU CHOOSE to do so, that Turbine remove the choice altogether for everyone. If you choose to play that way, thats fine; whether its because you want the extra challenge or because you choose to stay away rather than be ostracized.

........

There is no reason why folks who enjoy a healthy bit of vassal XP should be penalized just because another player wants to "be able to compete with them". Either join in and use the same game benefits or accept that they will always have those advantages over you. Everyone ALREADY has the same potential benefits as each other. Someone has 10 vassals and makes boatloads of XP in felowships? You can too; they dont have any advantage you couldnt also have. You CHOOSE to limit yourself in these things. There is no reason any one else shuold be FORCED into that playstyle.



You just made my point. You (I assume) me and others didn't use the alligiance passup to it's full effect. (everyone says exploit but in truth that is an ufair lable to place on those who figure out stuff like that, they were smarter than me I have to live with it ) Now you want those who did surpase you and I greatly because of that play style, to play by the new rules you want them to play by as punishment. As you just pointed out, sorry it shouldn't work like that. You choose your path. I don't cry because I started a well rounded Axer when It's now obvious that a secialized narrow skill set is the road to fast advancement in power. MY mistake. Turbine was nice enough to add skill buy back and specialization quests so I could fix MY mistakes over time. I took advantage of it the same way the chainers took advantage of the in place system of passup.

I said in my previous post and say again here. I DO NOT really believe that fellowship OR Allegiance rules should be changed to suit my play style. I believe they shouldn't be change either wiping out my 10 man private Monarchy. You on the other hand appear to think ( I could be wrong) that the Allegiance system should be modified in order to destroy the chainer's style of play because that destruction is beneficial to those who believe as you do that it's wrong to utilize the system in place to it's potential. Even at the expense of them quitting the game or killing thier playstyle, that they probably love as much as you love yours. They also pay the same as you do for the right. They matter as much as you. That's what me pushing my Solo playstyle was about. I DO NOT THINK that everyone should have to play according to my Solo style rules.

*** MY FULL POINT***
So why do the chainers deserve to be punished to conform to what you want, if you don't deserve to be punished to conform to what I want? That is my burning question.

I only eliminated my 2nd account because If I'm going to say I hate chainers AND Allegiance members, BUT I DON"T think they should be discriminated for using what Turbine gave them then I need to do it ( close the account ) to send a message and not just talk about it, so I did.

Sam

---------------------------------------------------

If the water accepts you........your dead either way... so who cares?

[sylphia]

First of all, I didnt implement the change; Turbine did. I fought AGAINST it, not for it. But I undertsand why they feel they need to make it. Chainers arent being punished for using the system in any way. The system is no longer going to be available. If anything, chainers are being REWARDED for having used it, since anyone who DIDNT use it no longer even has that option, and they have already reaped the benefits thereof. I am not in any way forcing chainers to adapt to any style of play I see as being "correct". As I already said, I have always been one of the most ardent supporters of players' right to chain, even though I do not do so myself. I can understand the view that it has caused imbalances in the game compared to folks who CHOSE not to chain. But that was their choice and no one else's.

I can also understand that Turbine views the chain system as TOO MUCH reward for the effort. It works the way they designed it, but I think they underestimated its potential and the ability of their player base to figure it out. The new system will offer rewards for joining an allegiance without making insane amounts of bonus XP in the process. I fully recognize that, had this been the orignial system, I would have been content with it. Its only because I (and many other players) are used to the CURRENT system that it upsets us to have this change dumped on us 4 years into the game. They have decided to bite the bullet on this one and push it through anyway, believeing it a necessary change to smooth out the differences a bit. Its actually a good system, just not what we are used to already. My only REAL problems with it are the 3-link chains to level trademules (since alternate methods are sub-par) and the fact that the monarch of a clan gets hosed in the process. Especially the big clans.

You dont want the allegiance/fellowship rules changed? You made a point of cross-posting this:

It's too bad the solitary players will never come together to push no xp modification or sharing, at all, ever. That is the only way the playfield will ever be even. All this beef over chainers. pfft! No passup exp for allegiances, at all, ever. I want no group benifits that descriminate against me because I'm not here to gab for an hour or make a lifelong friend. Find out who your true friends are. That's my view. Believe me it will happen quickly when your relationship with that other player isn't based on how your xp haul is modified by the tie, temporary or not, percieved earned or not.

That's my view at this point take all XP modification out and all the 3rd party apps as well. All of it. Punish everyone equally. 3 months from now everyone won't be able to cry when someone who is a stronger player is 15 levels thier senior with less game time because you'll know they wanted it more.

That seems to me to be exactly the opposite of the stance you are claiming in your lst post. Looks pretty cut and dry that you DO want them to be changed, since you have said yourself you are one of the solo players.

The new allegiance doesnt eliminate chains. It DOES cut down on their effectiveness, but it doesnt stop them from working. IN the new system, everyone in the chain gets a more even share of the XP, rather than it increasing the further it goes up. There are new options for leveling a SINGLE toon as opposed to multiple ones in a line. For those that purchased a second account JUST to level a trademule, you can swear all 5 toons on the non-mule account to the mule toon and reap HUGE XP rewards--assuming your levels permit it (thats another problem with the changeover, but not one that is easily solved).

There are benfits to balance the disadvantages in the new system. Its not a WORSE system than the old onel its DIFFERENT. The real problem here is the timing. If Turbine were to somehow allow us a one-month amnesty on toon levels, that would solve alot of the bitter feelings this change is causing. Sure, some ppl would use it as an explot to swear a lvl 126 toon to a lvl 1 toon, but thats no worse in my mind than denying a player the right to have his toons "properly" sworn in the new system, when they were created and sworn the way the OLD system dictated. There simply is no perfect solution here; nothing is going to make everyone happy. Leaving the old system in place wont do it either.

I dont envy Turbine their role in this; they have to bear the brunt of it all. But again, I believe they are doing what hey feel they have to do to smooth out the game. I dont believe they are trying to ostracize anyone or punish them for a given playstyle--other than those that are in violation of the CoC.

[MeTaGarfield]

Originally posted by sylphia
I am not confused at all Meta; yo useem to have ME confused with someone else. I kow exactly how the new formulas work, as posted in another thread. The things we DO have access to are RT (Real Time age of the toon: today minus /birth) and IGT (In Game Time of the toon: /age). We do NOT have access to RTS (Real Time Sworn) and IGTS (In-Game Time Sworn). We must either know or calculate these on our own. Nowhere in our display or commands does it show us either of these numbers. If we know EITHER the RTS or the IGTS, we can find the other. If we can estimate one, we can estimate the other. But we do not KNOW what they are through game displays.

The system has not been tracking RTS "in a way which we can use" according to the Devs. Whether you want to accept it or not is entirely up to you, but I have no reason to assume they are lieing about it. If they say they cant use it, they cant use it. Up until now, it hasnt been a factor in allegiance passup, so there is no reason to assume it was tracked "properly" in the first place. It may have been tracked by the system as a superflous variable, but if it wasnt recorded in a way that can be used, thats that; trying to prove some conspiracy theory among the devs to short change a player really serves no purpose. Its not like it is going to be game-breaking--except for those folks relying on inactive accounts to meet a statistic.

Dear Sylphia.

The in game time sworn is used in allegiance calculations today.
It is what time bonuses for loyalty and leadership is based on.

And the left part of the equation is the variable I want to calculate, it is the unknown variable. That variable is real time sworn. It will be calculated using the formula I spelled out (at least) twice in this thread and was mentioned in the original article.

I'll quote the original article:
Real time sworn will also be calculated upon first login after the February event. Because the real time date that you swore to your patron was never stored in a form we can use, we have to either start everyone from 0 real time sworn, or make a guess. So after the game recalculates your in-game time sworn, it will compare that time to the total amount of time you have spent online since character creation. That ratio will be applied to the total amount of real time since character creation to get a rough approximation of the amount of real time that the character has been sworn.


I see I made one small error, the in game time sworn used is the recalculated one, not the original one. But my formulas are the exact ones described in the above paragraph, and the original ingame time is used to calculate the new ingame time.

The wording makes me think that there will be even more ingame time required from now to max out time bonuses (it used to be 240 hours).

You can read the whole article at http://ac.turbinegames.com/index.php?page_id=162
and I suggest that as you do that, you keep a paper and pencil ready to write down some critical pieces of information:

What is "in-game time sworn"?
What is "total time spent in game since character creation"?
What is "the total amount of real time since character creation"?

The answer to these three questions are in the article.

I'll give you afew other answers to go:
The article states (indirectly) that all these are available today.
The character information tab in the game shows when the character was created (born) and how much time has been spent in game since then.


PS!
I see know why you are so confused. You think that if the information is not visible in the client the information is not in the system at all. That is wrong.
The article clearly states that the system uses (and with that has to have access to) the time spent in game since sworn, even if this time is not shown in the client.

[sylphia]

Meta,

I am well aware that the IGTS is used already. I never said it wasnt. You should read a post thoroughly and understand what is written in it rather than making inccorrect assumptions. I also never said the server doesnt track the IGTS. What I DID say was that we cannot see it. I have read the original article and understand it quite thoroughly. It is a FACT that unless you personally know what date you swore to another player *OR* you know how long your toon existed in-game before swearing him, you have NO way of knowing what IGTS or RTS is.

I will say this one more time to ensure it is very clear. You CAN NOT calculate RTS unless you know your IGTS. You CAN NOT calculate your IGTS unless you know your RTS. You MUST know one of these in order to obtain the other. There is NO display of either of these in-game, so you the player cannot calculate them unless you already knew what they were. If you know the date you swore to your patron, you can figure your RTS and then get IGTS. IF you know how old your toon was in-game when you swore to him, you can figure your IGTS and then get RTS from that. These are numbers YOU must know OUTSIDE f the game, because you CAN NOT get them in-game. If that is hard for you to understand, then perhaps you should log onto the game and look around your UI for either one of these numbers.

Now, if you care to look on Page 6 of this very article, you will find 2 formulas in BOLD print in a post with my name on it. Those are the two formulas used for calculating RTS and IGTS. One might also point out they predate your posts, but that would be quibbling, wouldnt it? If you compare the formulas to the article that Ibn wrote, you will find a most striking similarity. If you look further at the formulas themselves, you will see that in order to figure RTS or IGTS, you MUST have the value for one of them to get the other. You can ASSUME or GUESS at what one is and then estimate the other from that, but it will only be as accurate as your guess.

Recall that it is the devs' intention to "credit" players who achieved max IGTS before the patch with an equivalent amount of time in the new system. Obviously, the new system requires much more time to max out the IGTS, or they could simply transfer it over. So to make it work, they have to apply another formula to recalculate what the IGTS would be in the new system. Theoretically, they could do a similar procedure for RTS, but for whatever reason, the server cannot use whatever data it mau have stored for RTS. So it will apply the RTS formula (remember found on page 6) to calculate an estimate of it once the "adjusted" IGTS is known.

Why cant they use the data from the server? *shrug* They say it is not stored in a way that it can be used. I think I will go with what he programmers say on this, rather than suppositions of a player that has never seen the code. It cant be used, so the server will do a one-time recalculation on the first day the vassal logs in, then go from there. Slightly inconvenient for some players, but it also effectively borks things for folks with innactive vassals due to cross-server trades and freebie account mules.

If any of this is STILL unclear to you, then sorry but you are beyond my help.

[Shattenlauf]

could you guys can this thread already?
it's left player feed back and entered it's on little world of PvP

[kdthradio]

First off I don't recall accusing you personally of instituting the change to the allegiance system or even implying it. Also the paragragh before the 2 you quoted say What if......

Originally posted by kdthradio
I said in my previous post and say again here. I DO NOT really believe that fellowship OR Allegiance rules should be changed to suit my play style.

What if you hate group play and don't want to join a fellow? How do you get more XP than you deserve for your kill then? What happened to solo play? How about some quests that can only be solo'd. or killer magic Item quests where the Item stops functioning when you enter a fellowship or have any allegiance rank? You swear and it stops functioning, you break and it works again. I think a new server should have Fellowships that only aid in making chat and keeping tabs of fellowship mates on the radar easier. All a fellowship is, is a Turbine sanctioned acceptable xp exploit designed to retard the progress of the solo player (me) in relationship to the social butterflies.

It's too bad the solitary players will never come together to push no xp modification or sharing, at all, ever. That is the only way the playfield will ever be even. All this beef over chainers. pfft! No passup exp for allegiances, at all, ever. I want no group benifits that descriminate against me because I'm not here to gab for an hour or make a lifelong friend. Find out who your true friends are. That's my view. Believe me it will happen quickly when your relationship with that other player isn't based on how your xp haul is modified by the tie, temporary or not, percieved earned or not.

That's my view at this point take all XP modification out and all the 3rd party apps as well. All of it. Punish everyone equally. 3 months from now everyone won't be able to cry when someone who is a stronger player is 15 levels thier senior with less game time because you'll know they wanted it more.

It was an attempt to show the absurdity of the change. Seems it was ineffective. As I also said in an earlier post I have the habit of putting foot in mouth. I also said if I was doing that someone would point it out. :rolleyes: socially inept you see.

I still have to disagree with the statement that "Its not a WORSE system than the old onel its DIFFERENT."

It's worse because it punishes people that didn't do anything wrong or even exploit thier system to it's fullest. We recieved no extraordinary benefit from the original system, and are punished by under new one because of a whim. I know it probably wasn't a "whim" but after 4 years how can it seem like anything but. At it's least it's paying for someone elses mistake/poor planning/ill conceived design or whatever.

"For those that purchased a second account JUST to level a trademule, you can swear all 5 toons on the non-mule account to the mule toon and reap HUGE XP rewards--assuming your levels permit it (thats another problem with the changeover, but not one that is easily solved)."

All my Important toons are on my main account, ( so if I had money trouble I could close 1 and still have my trade mule.) The other account has unskilled conduits even if I could address the level discrepency, my trade mule is on the same account as my main character, that's why I closed the second account, I can't swear a toon to a toon on the same account no matter if the levels weren't an issue which they are. too bad so sad for me and anyone who shares my dilema.

I know you were just trying to offer a solution so don't take me quoting you wrong. Seems we only have slightly differing views.
My apologies if I offended you. Turbine is the focus of my anger, they made the change. Anyway I've made enough people bent, I'm slinking back off as promised to my somewhat diminished escape from reality. I'll pop back up the next time the system jacks me up.

oh well who cares, it's only a game, right, Turbine? :( Maybe if I participated the "right" way it would matter. As it stands I guess only I care about my little defunct monarchy, huh? your disgruntled serf awaits your next decision.

Sam

------------------------------------------------

Do the ants that remain cry after you've stepped on thier friends and family? Do you even care?

[sylphia]

KD,

I hope you understand that I am just debating you. I dont hate you, and I am not looking for a way to make you "just go away". We ARE actually of similar opinions, but we are coming at the subject from different perspectives. That being said :D


First off I don't recall accusing you personally of instituting the change to the allegiance system or even implying it.

Obviously you didnt say I made the changes, but the tone of much of your post indicated to me that you had lumped me in with the folks who had "campaigned" for these changes, assuming I was one of them for some reason. To be specific:


Now you want those who did surpase you and I greatly because of that play style, to play by the new rules you want them to play by as punishment.


I want to make it clear that I am NOT one of the folks who "competes" for levels, loot, or any other standard in the game. I dont resent it when another player achieves these goals before me or at a faster rate than I do. SO long as whatever they are doing does not violate the CoC and does not impact on what I or my clan and friends do in-game, it's none of my business, and I really have no right to dictate terms of their play style. If someone hits 126 in a week without cheating, kudos to them. Perhaps you didnt actually mean to make those implications, but thats how it looked to me, and thats what I was responding to. Water under the bridge if you say thats not how you meant it.


Also the paragragh before the 2 you quoted say What if......

Sorry had to seperate that a bit :)
It looked from the context that you had abandoned "what if" in the next set of paragraphs and were actually experessing your own views. They happen to be views that I disagree with, whether real or hypothetical.


I still have to disagree with the statement that "Its not a WORSE system than the old onel its DIFFERENT."

You missed a very important part: The real problem here is the timing.
The system itself is actually a good one. The timing for it (four years into the game) is the real issue. Implemented at this time, it very definitely loks like it is intended to "punish" the playerbase for chaining. However, had it been the original system form day one, I seriously doubt we would have had any real issue with it. The system itself is a good one. Implementing it NOW is what is causing all the grief.

I rather assumed that most of your playable toons would be on one account, and all of them too high in level to really rework it all. I have 2 accunts, and I used to have a similar issue. However, I purshased the second account as extra storage AND for more playable toons. My tinker and trade mules are both on one account with my "primary main" toon, and my toehr account (which is my original account) hosts my "second main" toon and all of my older alts. Each account has viable toons, sworn to my mules and then sworn to the toons that are sworn to my mules. And of course all of those are weaved into the clan itself. I deliberately set it up this way so that I could level my mules directly with playable characters, and so I could ALSO level those playable characters with more playable characters, while at the same time benefitting the mules they were sworn to. The three-man chain I refered to :)

I know that for many players, the new system really screws the pooch when it comes to leveling their trademules. As I said before, the only way to really solve that is to offer a level amnesty for a while and let folks rework their clans the way they need to. Yes, it opens up for abuse, but like I said, its not fair to the folks who built their clans based on the old system, which is no longer going to be valid in a couple of weeks. The amnesty would make alot of folks happy i think. Fortunaately, I saw this coming a couple years back when the first cries went out about chaining, and I have already worked things out to counter it :) With ot without the amnesty, my toons wil lbe fine, and our clan itself will be fine, since we have never been huge on XP. But I sympathize with those that wont be fine.

[Timult II]

I have tried to check out both threads regarding the XP changes, please forgive me if I missed this answer.

How long – knowing this new data regarding the XP changes – will it take for someone on the NEW server to reach 100+ level status? How long for several to do so? Your best guess works for me.

If the answer is 1 month then we can ignore the rest of this post.

If it will take a few months, then for those months, will we be denied "epic" level content until that server catches up?

What I am wondering is in last September Groundswell event it required that characters be of certain levels complete certain tasks (such as destroying the nests) to roll back the tide of the bug invasion. And I loved the way this played out. It was one of my favorite patches and one of the few times that I can actually say that we as players modified the landscape of Dereth by our efforts. And I would hate to see that model be removed from the game.

So my real question is if these XP changes modify the ability for many to level to a high enough level fast enough…

Will we have server divergence if the new server cannot complete the tasks required simply due to the fact that there might be no characters of the required level?

Will all servers be denied “epic” level content until that server catches up?

Will the admins or devs just trigger it because they have to?

Just wondering…

[ApolloAce]

Ok I have a question for everyone,

There appears to be a problem with this so called 3 man chain.

I was in a larger monarchy with my current monarch for a time.

there chain was small like 15 people. The tinker was about 5 or 6 from the top so about halfway down. It didn't hunt and it wasn't considered in the chain as far as passup. When someone outleveled it they passed by it and up the chain.

Ok now the three man chain.

1) Pusher
2) <~~~~this is the one I'm unsure of canit push?
3)Tinker

The rquirements with my current Monarch is simple everyone has a character under the guild tinker.

Why?

Because we want a good tinker and while a chain is nice, 4 to 6 characters under the tinker makes him level faster.

In the first Monarchy the guild needed help leveling the buffbot a bit, half a dozen people vassaled a character to it and did it.

Is it really that hard to do that and why can't that 2nd person simply do it just as easily??

[sylphia]

Here ya go Ace :)

"A" is the tinker/trade mule.
"B" is sworn to A.
"C" is sworn ro B.

A will now receive (at most) 10% of the XP earned by C. After all the math in the old system was done, A USED to receive up to 41% of C (approx).

A will no receive a MINIMUM of 25% from B, up to 90%--once you reach the max on every factor, which looks like it is going to take alot of time and XP. A USED to receive up to 44% of B.

C used to be a good pusher for both B and A, and B was a good pusher for A. Now, the XP earned form C will be neglible even when capped, and B starts out as an "ok" pusher with the potential to become a VERY good pusher.

So long as B is a playable toon, it shouldnt be much of an issue. The problem is that some folks swore C to a non-playable toon (B)just to provide a bridge back to their alt toon, A. So unless B is playable, they are going to have a hard time leveling A. If both B and C are playable toons, and C isnt on the same account as A, then its now better to swear both directly to A if you wan to level A.

Did that help?

[ApolloAce]

Oh almost forgot,

When Tinkering was implemented I moved my 2 accounts around.

1st account:

5 playable characters of different sorts if they caught my fancy, usually mages :)

2nd account:

Tinker
4 Mules

This is how my chain if you want to callit that looked:

Tinker
5 playable chars from 1st account

That way no matter which character I played my tinker recieved xp.

When I joined with my current Monarch (RL friend from my D & D group)January of last year I told him to create a tinker and put one of his and one from his vassals under his tinker.

He asked why not just do a chain?

I said because the tinker will level much faster the way I said.

That was all it took. He said ok and set it up that way.

In a single person chain the tinker isn't going to get or passup a lot of xp anyway. Nowhere near as much as several folks leveling them.

[ApolloAce]

Sylphia,

I guess I just don't understand why anyone would put a useless or usable character in between the pusher and the tinker when the tink would make far more xp by being vassaled directly, even in the old system.

With 4 to 6 folks vassaled to the tinker the tinker, even under the old sytem and even more so under the new system, would have hit 126 before the "vassals". No problem with the vassals being a higher level than the mule.

Seems self-defeating to me. :confused:

[Yrsa]

Eh, fairly common practice in 2 cases.

1) you've got a series of mules you want to push. Swear the "pushing" characters under the bottom trade character and let the XP flow.

2) You've got 1 account. :) My axer is sworn to a friends "play mage" who is in turn sworn to my blacksmith character. My friend gets free XP and I get some XP to my blacksmith.

[MeTaGarfield]

I have just one question to Turbine:

How come the information you need to do the calculations for changing between the two allegiance systems is not in the data base, yet available after said database has been used to load data into the game?

If the reason is that there is some really old and ugly code written by a pipesmoking intern six months before beta and untouched since then because "it worked", isn't it time you rip that old carcass out and replace it with code whose correctness a current developper would bet their monthly salary on?

I agree it wasn't broken for the January patch. It did what it was supposed to do when calculating passup. But after February it is broken, it no longer does what it should do.

So this would have been a golden opportunity to fix this.


Reorganizing a data base in this way is always easier to do while the database is off line.

Putting in code in the production system for these once in a life time changes means adding more dead weight, more dead program lines that take space on disk and in memory and eventually will create bugs when interfearing with new code.


There is (or at least shuld not be) anything "magical" about the relationship between data as it appears in game and the data in the data base.

[sylphia]

Ace, if you want to swear your own toon to your mule to level it and they are on the same account, how would you do it? You have to have a "bridge" from another account. If that bridge is also a playable character, kudos to both of you. If it is another trade/tinker mul, then you effectively are leveling both of them wit hyour toon, at the same relative speed (44% vs 41% XP from toon C). SO basically if you swore toon C directly to toon A (assuming you COULD), you would only see an increase of 3% XP. Not really much to worry over :) With the toons set in a 3 man chain, TWO toons get the benfit from C, with minimal reduction to one of them, even if C COULD have been sworn directly to A. Thats the basis of all chains, no matter how big or small. Of course the bigger the chain, the more XP the guy at the top receives anyway :)

In the new system its all moot. A gets bunk from C now. So unless you CAN swear C directly to A, he wont receive any real benefit.

[ApolloAce]

Ah ok that makes sense Yrsa.

With 2 accounts I do have a bit more flexibility.

When Repercussions came out and I looked at what the tinkers could do. I realized a tinker could help me out a great deal. better armour and weapons I could pass on to my characters that came next.

I realized that I would level it faster with several characters.

I suppose I "lucked out" in that case.

Then again for the most part up until last January of last year I have been a lone wolf. So I did what it took to take care of myself "in house" so to speak.

Folks in a group would tend to depend on the efforts of the rest and do it in the most effecient manner.

For single player with 2 accounts what I did is most effecient, for a group or a person with one account that wouldn't work or be fair to your friend.

[Tesuji Aji]

I think the toothpaste and such, with the gambling is very lacking for lvling trade mules. Even worst for Tinker mules. As a test, could a Dev lvl a trade mule from 90 to +100, AS A MULE using gambling or tinking / trade functions.

I think you may find the "there are plenty of quests for trade chars/tinkers" statement to be incorect

[Bensam]

Sheesh, you all should stop stressing over this. All these calculations are silly.

The point of this change is to kill exp pass-up, except for the case where both vassal and patron have invested heavily in those skills (billions) and have been pledged to each other for an overly-romanticized period of time (years).

For those of you who have skill credits and billions to spend and have been pledged to your patron for years, you will see the increased pass-up that Ibn teases us with.

Everyone else is out of luck, especially since the ig/rl time sworn bonus times will be "very long" in Ibn's own words.

Take your 25% and be happy that it isn't zero.


The question that has never been satisfactorily answered is how this change is good for the future of AC.

[sylphia]

Meta,
Seems to me thats what they ARE doing. They are adding a one-time code to get the numbers they need for the database to work properly, and then the new coding takes it from there. The "one time code" HAS to stay in for when anyone who logs in for the first time, who was still operating on the old system, needs to be converted to the new system. Its not dead code; its simply waiting for another person to log on that fits its critera.

You cant just take a program designed to work on a Commodore64 and expect your WinXP machine to understand it. You have to write an adapter code (in that case, Emulators) to interpret the old daya and convert it into something that your new comp can use. You may be able to re-write that specific program to be compatible with WinXP, but you still need the emulator in case you run across another C64 program you want to view.

C64 is the "old allegiance system", WinXp is the "new allegiance system" and the Emulator is the "one-time code".

[ApolloAce]

Right Sylphia,

I have 2 accounts what I do will only work with at least 2.

For a personwith 1 account that wouldn't work.

On top of that I never leveled any of my playable characters past the tinker, the reason being if something happened I couldn't swear back so I always kept my characters equal so that the Tinker stayed above them.

All 5 to 20 then to 30 then to 40 and so on. Keeping the Tinker higher than them at all times.

I guess I got lucky and chose the right way to do it. :D

[sylphia]

Ace,
Or you were smart like me and planed for it :cool:

Next I plan to take over the world muahahaha

Yrsa,
didnt mean to steal your thunder. I was actually posting my reply about the same time as you were, but something came up and I had to walk away form the keyboards in the middle of it heheh

[ApolloAce]

We can share it Sylphia and promise not to oust you.

One needs friends at the top and the bottom. :D

[kdthradio]

Sylphia,

I was lumping you in and I appologize for that.

As to the current topic in the last few posts, I didn't plan for a change to a 4 year old system. I don't spend a lot of time on the boards I spend my time playing mostly. Since I don't belong to a monarchy (except my own private one) I don't get news in a timely fashion. So I have 5 toons on one accout that are in the 30 to 60 range and useful and 5 in the 9 to 30 range on my second that aren't. I'd have to delete them and start from scratch to get back to where I am now with my mule. I know there will be no amnesty to swear a higher toon to a lower toon, so provided I don't play my axer until my tinker on a second account is 30th level I should be able to fix this heheee. My tinker on my main is 45 so it really isn't worth my time recovering that old ground.

My tinker mule was originally my buyer. he had all of the identificaton skills so he could search the shops and be able to see an items stats way back when in the old days where that was a problem. So what I did was get all the Tinkerskills because I had enough credits and I had been leveling him excrutiatingly slow on a steady diet of drudges. That's why I have a 45 level tinker on my main account with my 62 level Axer as a grand vassal. My axer was way lower level because I made him so badly he was near unplayable until the Skill credit quests. I guess what I'll do is get the gems to drop one tinker skill and train bow and hunt him. My only issue with that scenario, is that I will need to play twice as much to progress at the same speed as before on both characters.

Anyway, I have come to the point where I have accepted the change. good or bad that's the way it goes now and me crying about it, is just me crying about it. I made my statement I closed my second account over it. I'm saving money, so I win over all I guess.

Sorry again Sylphia,

Sam

---------------------------------------------------------

[Ibn]

Originally posted by pacesetter
are the leader/loyaltycaps buffed or base?

Sorry for the delay in getting back to this -- the caps listed are base, but the scale goes up to buffed. So, in fact, to maximize your return, you will need to cap the skills and then cast 7s on yourself and your vassals.

It should be noted that at that point, the difference between with-7s and without-7s is very small, but there is a difference.

[Ibn]

Originally posted by Ultis
What about the collars and other items that rely on loyalty and leadership to activate? Are they going to be changed to have lower activation requirements?

Yup, they'll be changed.

[Ibn]

Originally posted by Zedon
I have a question.
If leadership is not trained on my toon does he get 25% only, or 0% or if 25% is that modified by the bonuses even though it os not trained?

If you do not train Leadership, you will not gain any of the leadership benefits to pass-up.

With 0 effective Leadership, the minimum direct vassal-to-patron passup is 25% of earned XP, and the maximum is... ay, math... 47.5% of earned XP.

So if you are my vassal, and you max out your effective Loyalty, and I do not have Leadership trained, I will get 47.5% of earned XP passed-up. To get any more than that, I will need to train Leadership.

[Ibn]

Originally posted by vysaka
If I understood this correctly, specing leader will have no benefit over trained after this change?

Negative. For the same amount of XP spent, you will get a greater benefit from spec'd Leadership than you will for trained.

[Ibn]

Originally posted by DarthMord
Is that before or after the time sworn (IG & RL) modifiers??

If it's before, it'll gut that 25% like nobody's business, especially with newbie swears.

After. That 25% minimum is the ABSOLUTE minimum of 0 effective Leadership and 0 effective Loyalty. You will NEVER get less than 25% pass-up from a direct vassal.

Also, keep in mind that the old maximum for direct vassal pass-up was 44%. The new minimum is only 17 percentage points less than the old maximum.

[Ibn]

Originally posted by MeTaGarfield
Using a keepalive logon to maximize time bonus was a good idea allready with the old system.

This is very true -- using a keepalive program to maximize the in-game time sworn was something that we were aware of folks using under the old system.

This is why your in-game time sworn is multiplied by your real time sworn.

If you want to max out your in-game time sworn, you can go ahead and do that (as long as you don't do it by UCM'ing, of course), but if your real time sworn is low, you won't see much benefit.

[sophie ii]

Originally posted by Logan
I think this changes are improving the game and even help small allegiances out.

Just dont give in to the chainers. I think they may find fun in playing the game in a "intended" way

I don't belong to a xp chain, have been with a/c since the first month of release. My main is level 114, yes some from monarchy chains. And I think this is the worst idea that turbine has come up with.

When turbine bought a/c from microsoft, I thought with thier hands untied much good would come from it. But it seems quite clear to me that the mojority that have posted on all the different venues are going to be ignored.
Why on earth would you make a change of this magnatude without so much as a poll from your loyal customers to get a real hands on idea of it's acceptance.

No matter , though the boards are full of negative feedback, turbine will go on as planned.

[Regalo]

This first one is from your first article but I still think it is a valid point.

***Regarding leveling up a trades character... while yes, it is no longer effective to do this via a chain, it is MUCH more effective to do this via direct active vassals.

Please note, as is stated, that the direct vassal->patron pass-up is actually increasing.***

"""Via direct vassals""" screws those guilds who have gotten rank for their people and set them up in one long row so that more than just a few can use that rank to help them equip their rank items.

If you only have the one rank leg then only one person out of the total under the trades/tinker character will be allowed to benefit from the rank.

People will have to put lower level characters under their trades/tinker characters... and it is the lower level people usually who benefit the most from the use of rank items.

Most guilds have more than one trades/tinker character also.

You are messing with rank more than xp as far as I can see.
-------------------------------
-----------------------------------

***The display of your character's date of birth will be on a toggleable option, defaulting to off. Your date of birth will only be visible to other players if you choose to turn the option on.***

People are still going to jump to the conclusion that you chained ...especially if you have the toggle set to "Off". They will say hey your DOB isn't showing. What have you got to hide??
(just go read the vn asheron's call server world boards sometime to see examples of this)


***In addition, keep in mind that there are already a few quests for trades characters, and that many trophy items exist that can be turned into a collector in exchange for experience. (The casinos are an excellent place to find these trophies.) And we are always looking for new ways that trades characters can gain experience.***

Excuse me but since when do the things we turn in give our characters millions of xp??

It costs around 50 - 100 million experience minimum now for some of my trades characters' tinkering skills.

I used olthoi heads and claws and things for my plain old mules to try to get them to a better strength.... and after a few lvls it takes tons just to raise it one or two points.

How does turning in such measly little things affect a skill costing around 83 million?? It is negligible!
-----------------
also..... Do we get experience earned when we tinker?? I have always wondered about this.

We get xp earned when we make trade health elixers and arrowheads and stuff... though it is a pittance once you hit a higher level.
But I haven't noticed that using a tinkering skill actually raises it.
We had to pay to train the skills so we should get experience points for doing it I would think.

[Pureblade]

Since I've never been a monarch, I had not really given much thought to the idea that they would suffer from the upcoming changes. Looking back I've realized that they will suffer, and greatly at that.

One of the core principles of AC (in traditional monarchies) has always been that as you advanced in levels you tended to spend less time hunting and more time helping vassals. My monarch from the last clan I was in told me stories of logging in and being assaulted by /m tells for hours, from people in need, or who just wanted to chat. He was the great organizer, and it meant that he rarely had a chance to actually go out and hunt for XP. The flipside, of course, was that he received a fair amount of XP from the monarchy beneath him, enough to keep life interesting and keep his character viable for helping with high end quests and recoveries.

This change kills that dynamic deader than a doornail. Suddenly being a monarch is a hinderance. Its all nice and well to say that the monarch should NEED the XP, that helping vassals should be reward enough, but this is the real world we live in here.

So, of course, what can the answer be. Well, for one, I think that the Monarch of a clan should somehow receive the XP that they used to, without it having to chain up through the clan. They are, after all, responsible for the clan in its entirety, not just their directs. Having this be factored in by in-game/sworn time would prevent Monarch-hopping.

I actually also like the idea of being able to sell XP for XP tokens/trophies. You earned that XP, you should be able to transfer it. At a loss, calculated by the difference in character levels. And make it so that only a character on your account can use the XP. That helps the folks out there who can only afford one account (I run two myself).

And the most important thing is doing away with UCMers. If you believe these changes have nothing to do with UCM you have your head in the sand. People will look for cheap XP where they can. With chains gone, UCM is the next big place to go. You've already declared them illegal, now stand up. That will go a long way towards restoring my faith.

[KF_AC]

While I still don't understand the need for xp to be passed up under any scheme, I can live with these changes.
Doesn't really matter to me, but in all fairness what are you going to do about UCMs?

Not only will UCM remain a viable option, but by it's nature it will increase the benefits of the in-game-spent-time factor for all those who practice it.

Declaring it illegal does not solve the problem either, players will still UCM and find ways to beat the Admins. Except that under these new rules, UCMs will benefit from xp passup more than anyone else.

[MIdnightFire7]

Declaring it illegal does not solve the problem either, players will still UCM and find ways to beat the Admins. Except that under these new rules, UCMs will benefit from xp passup more than anyone else.

I agree. Making UCM illegal will not stop it. They will find a way around it. With this change we will see a increase in UCM and they will benefit more from this then the people who dont UCM, and more then those of us who only have very few hours to play due to work and a real life. This also hurts Trade Mules. Not all of us have 100 MMD notes to spend gambling for poor prizes to lvl our mules slowly.

[sylphia]

Originally posted by Ibn
Negative. For the same amount of XP spent, you will get a greater benefit from spec'd Leadership than you will for trained.


“Capped” means that the skill has been raised to a point where no more experience can be spent on it. For Loyalty and Leadership, that will be 208 if the skills are trained, 236 if the skills are specialized.


I am really not nit-picking here Ibn; I see an inconsitancy in these two statements, and I want to be sure this is 100% on the money.

The second article says that the patron and vassal must cap leadership and loyalty, respectively as one of the requirements to meet max passup; another of your posts indicates that it ALSo requires LVL 7 buffs on top of THAt to reach the actual cap for the physical number sin the skills.

Now here is the part that is unclear: You say on one hand that we have 2 different caps we can reach; if we haveit trained and max out the XP in it, we get the max possible passup, but you also say that if we have it SPECED we get that same cap. This means why bother spending the extra 2 skill credits if we can reach that cap trained?

On the other hand, you say we can reach the cap for the same amount of XP either trained or speced. Do yo umean we dont actually have to CAP the speced leadersiph, that it COULD be raised beyond 236 base leadership, but to no effect? Again, if the amount of XP that must be physicially put into leadership (or loyalty) is the same whether trained or speced, why bother specing it? Just train it and put however many billion XP you have to into it and save the extra 2 credits. In other words, if it takes 4 billion to reach 206 trained leadership and it takes 4 billion to reach 236 speced leadership (assumed figures on XP guys, not exact!), why would I invest 2 more skill credits when the amount of XP is the same?

Is this an oversight? If it is, thats fine just say so and I will unspec leadership on my mules. But if it actually DOES offer some benefit (say passup can only achieve 80% max with trained, but the full 90% with speced), then I want to know.

Thanks :)

[dirn]

I'm suprised you are still going through with this change this fast with all the suggestions and complaints about this.

This change will not effect me much in fact I will probably get more XP. I still have reservations about a change this large this fast with what SEEMS like little input from the player base that has stuck with this game for a very long time. I just wish more input would have been taken into account before the change was decided on.

I feel bad for my monarch he can barely hunt at all due to running the monarchy when he logs on. Yes he will get an increase of xp from his direct vassels but I can't see how 12 players(which I dont think he has all 12) can make up for the hundreds that are passing up now. By the way we are in no way an xp chain.

I guess I am posting in the hopes that you will just slow down a bit, NOT stop the changes but just slow down and let people at least think that you will listen and take there thoughts into account.

I know this is probably falling on deaf ears and the changes will happen on schedule but at least i put my two cents in. I truly hope to be playing this game for a long time.

[Yusuki]

Chiming in: The only concern I have with the new system, as many others have noted, is adequately improving a non-combat tradeskills character. The fellowship thing went away, and that was a pretty large part of the method I used to get a decent amount of experience for the trade mule's use.

The item turn-in suggestion is a good one. Or would be, if the actual experience gained from item turn-ins were reasonable once the trade character got up past 50. When every new level costs tens or hundreds of millions of experience points, and every point increase in any skill or attribute costs millions, that 35k XP yellow jewel doesn't mean much. Even the Eviscerator pincer, at 3 million every 21 days, is more trouble than it's worth. (Try driving a 190% burden mule with a baned, tinkered buckler down there some time. Possible, but annoying.)

Any plans to add new items to the game for percentage-of-level turn-in experience (such as the ones you do in GW now) that apply to tinkering skills? If not, would someone please consider them?

Thanks for your time.

[bobjava]

Still a bad idea.

The follow up letter was nice, but still no explanation as to how this change will improve the long term viability of the game.

Needing to train leadership is a major nerf for a mage. They already have to use many more credits for war magic.
No spec mage here I come. :)

Anything that causes this much re-action, most of it negative should perhaps be re-considered, putting ego aside.

This will cause some to leave the game, and that is not good, assuming Turbine actually wants to continue AC. (Not a forgone conclusion.)

Oh well, lots of talk, good posts, good ideas, nothing changed,
feels like I am at work. I play to get away from this, :) so

CYA.



Build up to those above you, don't pull them down to you.

[AnotherDude]

Thanks for the more detailed explanation.


However I feel the passup to Grandpatron should still be tweaked up a bit more. My vassals don't want to be sworn to my trade mule, but want to be sworn to me (the toon that gets played and hunts with them). Not to mention that some of my vassals exceed my trade toons level already.

This whole things isn't a deal breaker to me, and on the whole I like the agenda being set, so I'm probably just pushing my own cause/needs.

Thx.

[Mogosh]

Originally posted by Ibn
If you do not train Leadership, you will not gain any of the leadership benefits to pass-up.

With 0 effective Leadership, the minimum direct vassal-to-patron passup is 25% of earned XP, and the maximum is... ay, math... 47.5% of earned XP.

So if you are my vassal, and you max out your effective Loyalty, and I do not have Leadership trained, I will get 47.5% of earned XP passed-up. To get any more than that, I will need to train Leadership.

Thank you for this very useful information (the balance between the bonus coming from time or from skill). The models can now be finalized for alternate schemes.

After a quick glance, and exactly as you said, powerlevelling in small squadrons will be even faster than with the XP chains. Although the global artificially-generated XP on the server will diminish, the gap between hard-core players and the rest (casual players, standard vassal/patron pairs, players more active for their monarchy than for their XP, mules, etc.) will become unstitchable.

For those who are concerned by this, be reassured: the ultra-steep curve of the XP does not really make chars above 150 more powerful in PvM than sharp level 120s.

That is, if the next "bold move" is not to reform this high-level curve. This would make for great fun (playing a level 150 sharp mage in full major is plain boring right now), but would definitely bury any hope of accessing the entire game for most subscribers.

Just like the initial allegiance XP standard was not thought out for the life of the game, this high-end portion of the XP curve is not well suited to the long-term life of the game. Fixing it IS just as much a requirement for the long-term interest of AC. Now the question is: "How will it be done?"

[StarchaserX]

In a nutshell:

1. Remove default loyalty trained and free up 2 skill credits.
Remove leadership. Refund all xp in both skills, create new skill costing 4 or 6 credits called: Allegiancy.
It functions as both leader and loyalty. It can only be trained as there is no benefit to spec.
There is no need to put xp into it as the benefit of training allegiance functions solely as a matter of RL time passed. This puts everyone on equal footing. It cannot be player modified.
Will explain below.

2. Have pass-up and pass-thru xp determined by a function of RL
time passing so that everyone progresses equally, at set % a month until max is reached. Remove ig sworn time as
240 hours is 10 days running a bot/login. That only hurts casual players.

3. For untrained allegiance (loyalty/leader):
vassel starts at 15%, maxes at 25% to patron, 12.5% to grand patron. Xp goes no further than grand patron. Suggest 5 months to reach max.
If you are not concerned with pass-up, then you come out 2 extra skill credits. Great for low-mid characters as it puts them up to 10 lvls ahead in development. If they ever reach 126 then they will have maximum of 90 skill credits available.

4. For trained allegiance (loyalty/leader):
vassel starts at 25%, maxes at 50% to patron, 25% to grandpatron. Xp goes no further. Suggest 5 months to reach max.
The skill costs 4 or 6 credits, so at 126+, there will only be 84-86 skill credits available for character development.

5. Notice that over the old system, with the new system everyone gains 2 credits, but in the long run, untrained has 4-6 extra credits to play with or if a lower lvl, is ahead 10 lvls in receiving skill credits.
Higher 126+ characters will have the advantage of XP and all skill
credits recieved but to double xp% pass-up/pass through, have to pay credits for allegiance skill.
Sub 126 untrained will have penalty of less discretionary xp but
the advantage of 2 credits/10 lvls of advancement sans the xp of 10 levels.

6. For untrained allegiance vassel and trained allegiance patron,
or trained vassel/untrained patron, it always defaults to a max of
25%. Both have to be trained for max benefit. Grand patron always receives at 50% of the patrons current %.

7. Have the option to adjust xp% on character screen from
0% to +100%. Why? For the hunting vassel/patron that do not
want to grow too far apart in level and ability.

8. Also have the ability to send self earned xp in reverse.
Not fellow xp, trophy xp, or any other possible exploitable xp.
Just what they earn for killing a monster themselves.
If in fellow, at 31%, then for every monster that character killed, 100% of 31% from that kill can be sent to a vassel at 50% of their allegiance rating or grand vassel at 25% of allegiance rating.
For the outleveled mule characters, there can be hope. Not great but it helps.
This would also mean that if xp is being sent to vassels, 0% is sent to patron/grandpatron.
This would be another option on the character screen.

9. Since it all functions as a matter of RL time, any break would start over from squre one: 15% untrained, 25% trained.

10. Optional Bonuses: Each individual active vassel will add an additional 2.5% to their xp pass-up for untrained allegiance to be earned in the 6th month, for a max of 27.5%. At one year, an additional 2.5% will be added for 30%.
Grandpatron would be able to recieve up to 50% of this based on RL time.

For trained allegience, each individual active vassel will add 5% to their pass-up in the sixth month for 55%, at one year another 5% for
60% max. Grandpatron recieves up to 50% of this based on time.

11. Monarch bonus: Followers have the option on character screen to devote a portion of their earned xp to their Monarch: 1% if untrained. 2% if trained.
True, it isn't much, but it adds up over time and number of followers.

12. For currently sworn characters, the % of pass up/through will automatically start based on RL time sworn so there is no starting from square one.

I know, I am trying to please everybody, and probably no one will like it in it's entirety, but at least it tries to address most concerns
in it's flawed way.

[Osrik]

I didn't notice anything really new in the article but it was nice seeing everthing stated in a clear and unambiguous way.

[Tas]

I HAVE GOOD NEWS!!!






















I just saved money by switching to geico... well, not really, but I just got rid of 2 of my 3 accts - savings = *drum roll* $310.80 per year!!

Turbine, I've been loyal to you for 4 years, all through the life-drain problems, ucm's, etc etc... ( only lost 1 acct from me 'cause of life drains)... give us loyal people a reason to think you aren't screwing us. Tell us you're going to give us a REAL way to level a trademule.

[MeTaGarfield]

IBN, you are sure about the math about max passup without leadership?

In that case it answers one of the few unknown factors for me.

Loyalty will create 50-95% of the exp hunted.
Leadership will pull 50-95% of the allegiance exp.
Loyalty will create 0-11% of the allegiance exp for furthert passup.

:-)

Also, time bonus will modify the effective skill by a multiplier.

So one more question remains:

Will leadership and loyalty buffs still be in the game?

If so, these are a way to get some of the time bonuses even without the skill trained.

Off to the drawing board to see what the results are. Or maybe not, it was fund the first five times. Not so anymore.

[sylphia]

In one of his posts, Ibn said that the numbers listed for leadership and loyalty were base numbers, and that you would still need to cast leadership/loyalty 7 on all appropriate parties to get the max passup.

Edit: found the post....


Sorry for the delay in getting back to this -- the caps listed are base, but the scale goes up to buffed. So, in fact, to maximize your return, you will need to cap the skills and then cast 7s on yourself and your vassals.

It should be noted that at that point, the difference between with-7s and without-7s is very small, but there is a difference.

[Spliffa]

In addition, keep in mind that there are already a few quests for trades characters, and that many trophy items exist that can be turned into a collector in exchange for experience. (The casinos are an excellent place to find these trophies.) And we are always looking for new ways that trades characters can gain experience.

Ever taken a trademule on a quest on Darktide? A tinker is just peekay fodder. If this is the only way to level my trademule who is several levels lower than my other characters, I guess that I will need some drop items for my aqua incanta.

[Lurchy]

that is why the need for a new pass-up system needs/needed to be put in place and the reason why UCMing needs to stop.http://vnboards.ign.com/Morningthaw/b5156/63680542/?15

[Meri]

Actually, it appears the reason they're putting it in place is because of people who seem to be obsessed with someone else's levels. What possible difference does it make that some guy has 10 characters over level 126? Granted, it seems a bit extreme, but unless he UCM'd, there's nothing wrong with it.

[MeTaGarfield]

Hehe, I think IBN is wrong.. :-)


It should be noted that at that point, the difference between with-7s and without-7s is very small, but there is a difference.


Basically (I did this somewhere else) passup is like this:

passup = 0.25 + leadership*a + loyalty*a + 2*leadership*loyalty*a²

Where leadership and loyalty are the effective skills (up to twice the buffed skill) and a is approximately 0.000375 (to get 90% passup at effective skills of 600).

Consider buffing leadership 10 steps (for easy calculation).

Than passup increases by 10*a + 20*loyalty*a².

Note that this is independent of leadership.

But as the effective loyalty of the vassal increases, you get a little bit more out of it.

So that leadership buff increases passup by the same amount regardless of your leadership level, the same way another point into leadership increases passup by the same amount of exp at an exponential (x^5) cost.

I take it back, it is still more fun to do silly mathematical calculations than reload the client when it crashes as I try to switch character. (I run Decal, so I won't complain about that, its not every time anyway.)

[Warszawa]

Funny.

The bonus is XP passup is based on time sworn to a patron, but those who need to re-organise their ranking and patron/vassal relation for trade skills, etc... go back to 0 sworn time.

Way to go...

:confused:

[Meri]

Yes, if we reorganize, we're penalized and if we keep non-active vassals we're penalized.

[TheeAngryOne]

Turbine made caul island good again but killed good ways to level. Way to go Turbine..... :eek:

[Shoku-Ti]

Ya know. I have been around since beta. I have seen lots of great stuff happen. I have seen lots of *nerfs* happen. For example. I remember being an Advocate and getting tossed aside. I remember Drain nerfs, having to buy or find scrolls, no more monster loot on ground. Microsofts Nazi like admins server hopping while ban happy.

Since day one there have been groups that some how seem to have major stoke. Somebody crys Archers are too strong. Archer gets a nerf, mages get a boost. Now the next person crys, Mages are too strong. Mages get a nerf, melee's get a boost and the circle continues.

Some bored guy or gal that has few if any friends in game or little game time. Finds too many people with higher lvl toons then themselves. OH NO!! This cant be right lets complain its unfair. Now UCM is against COC. " Oh look that group of friends has a xp chain, they are making more then me" That can't be fair. Lets complain. XP chains set to die.

Why does this seem to be an ongoing trend? Can't anybody simply be happy with what they do have? Stop worring about what the other guy is doing. This latest change really bothers me. For the simple fact. Even though I belong to one of the largest Monarchies on HG. I prefer to hunt alone. I have 2 accounts a sweet computer. I dual log and run in window mode and make 1 toon follow the other. And yes I have my toons set in a chain fashion. This is now going to be useless to me. Only bennifit now is I'll save 14.00 a month by killing second account.

Turbine don't get me wrong you guys have done some fantastic things over the last 4 years. But I believe you need to listen more in more places. The guys that seem to cry the loudest that you seem to listen to are the minority.

But maybe thats the problem there.A growing trend in America seems to be. If somebody is considered a minority and even hints something isn't fair. Those in charge fall all over them selves to kiss a$$ and make it all better.

[Digero]

Originally posted by Og II
If I read this right, I am going to have to break any inactive vassal asap or that 0 will get averaged in. It seems to me that if it is not too late to change, it would be much better to take the avg of the 4 longest sworn.

I don't recall seeing you confirm or deny this Ibn? I don't see a reason to be penalized for having inactive vassals if you have active ones as well.

[sylphia]

Mmm I think Ibn would know more about how the code works than anyone making assumptions who has yet to even see the prop. Or rather Srand does, since she is the one feeding him the info on this :D We have no way of knowing whether or not a formula for calculationg the factors that go into XP are correct or not; we cant even use the ones fomr the old system as a baseline, since all we really kow so far is that they have chaged the way it works inthe new system, not how each factor is proportioned in the new system.

[Taam]

Hail Digero,

From the second article clarifying the first under Powerleveling Characters at http://ac.turbinegames.com/index.php?page_id=162

Turbine's Follow-up Article
The time that this vassal has spent sworn to the patron, both in terms of in-game time and real time, is at the maximum.

The average of the times that all the vassals of this patron have been sworn (again both in-game and real time) are at the maximum.

It's the use of the word 'AVERAGE' that has some contemplating dumping either inactive vassals while some are actually considering dumping casual players who only play a few hours a week and may not be in game all that frequently. Perhaps it's the potential for either of these two classes of players to negatively impact on the experience pass-up that some are finding objectionable? Of course, I may be mistaken.

[Ibn]

Originally posted by sylphia
The second article says that the patron and vassal must cap leadership and loyalty, respectively as one of the requirements to meet max passup; another of your posts indicates that it ALSo requires LVL 7 buffs on top of THAt to reach the actual cap for the physical number sin the skills.

To reach the absolute maximum you will require spec'd leadership on the patron, spec'd loyalty on the vassal, both skills capped, and 7s.

[Ibn]

Originally posted by Digero
I don't recall seeing you confirm or deny this Ibn? I don't see a reason to be penalized for having inactive vassals if you have active ones as well.

That zero will get averaged in.

Yes, it may be necessary to decide whether maximum optimized pass-up is more important to you than emotional ties.

Many folk use the word "penalized" to describe any situation that does not result in maximum optimized pass-up. I don't think that's a good word for it. There are many situations that are not 100% perfection that I would think would still be desireable.

[Meri]

Ibn... someone really needs to review that. I thought one of the purposes of this change was to make those skills useful. Although I understand removing the ability to "max" out by raising "Self," is there any other skill that doesn't use some attribute to help build it? The "only" people who will ever be able to cap those skills are the extreme level 126ers (since Turbine doesn't recognize anything above that, I can't say "200+") who are maxxed out on all of their combat skills. And those are the people that don't need it.

It would be almost funny if it wasn't so rediculous. It's as if whoever designed this plan took ALL of the ideas that might work and instead of picking the best... just pooled them together into one huge disaster.

[ApolloAce]

I agree with you on that one IBN.

The greatest part of association with anyone or anything is that both have to be willing to give to the other.

If your concern is xp, then those not giving it are irrelevant.

If your concern is friends, then those not giving it are irrelevant.

If your concern is both, you get a little of each.

[Meri]

Originally posted by Ibn
Many folk use the word "penalized" to describe any situation that does not result in maximum optimized pass-up. I don't think that's a good word for it. There are many situations that are not 100% perfection that I would think would still be desireable.

And yeah... I feel penalized... which is a better term than "nerfed," isn't it? My "reward" for four years in the game and being a pretty decent monarch is for my character to become stagnant... because I can't max leadership... I won't drop old friends just because they aren't currently playing... I won't ask my friends to move their more active characters under me... and I don't macro. I'm not talking about "maximum optimized pass-up," either. I'm talking about "reasonable optimized pass-up." Sure, I'll have some trickle of experience being passed up from a couple of active directs... and what I earn myself... but it will take ages to gain enough to raise my skills even one point.

Ah well...

Perhaps you can give me another word besides "penalized?"

[kdthradio]

Hey Ibn,

You are right when you say

"Many folk use the word "penalized" to describe any situation that does not result in maximum optimized pass-up. I don't think that's a good word for it. There are many situations that are not 100% perfection that I would think would still be desireable."

And if you look at the new system you're installing all on it's own merits you are 100% correct. But, comparing it to the old system that was in place for 4 years makes your new system a penalty by default. It doesn't matter if no one believes it. If the US government took away the tax breaks accociated with repaying a home loan would that feel like a penalty? If the US government took away the tax advantage per child and made it a flat rate = to the current credit for one child, would the bread winner of the 10 kid family feel penalized? You bet they would. Telling him this new system is better and that he just has to tighten his belt because the old system, the only system he has ever know was never supposed to reward a family for having kids doesn't help.

Turbine is wizzing down our back and telling us it's raining Ibn, and we can tell by the smell that it isn't rain.

Some Folk use the word "Penalized" when they are being slighted.

Sam

-------------------------------------------------------

I'm still getting angrier and angrier over this and I'm still never going to stop playing my favorite game.

[Ariella]

Wow, I don't feel "slighted, penalized or nerfed" in any way.

Course I've never been in an xp chain.

Allegiances were never meant to be used as a way for fast and free xp. All the ideas they "pooled" together are to fix this.

And I really think it's pathetic that people would chose xp over their casual playing friends.

It's your choice though.

[Aesthetic]

So you get penalized for having inactive vassals. Thats stellar.

Yes, I use the word penalized because thats what it is. Stop trying to sugar coat it please.

[sylphia]

Ibn,
thanks for the response. I guess the reference to capped trained leadership/loyalty was just a foot note for reference then. The way it was worded, it appeared that it was possible to cap passup by having it capped either way. It was just ambiguous enough that I wanted to be sure before I start quoting it :)

Meri,
One thing to rememebr tis that alot of folks are focusing on the absolute max XP you can wring ot of the system. Getting to the absolute top of it IS going to be a huge pain. But what about getting to 80% or 70%? The amount of XP (and presumably time sworn, etc) will be significantly less. If my vassal makes 10Mil, and I get 7-8Mil instead of 9Mil, does that really make a huge impact on me? For the noraml patron/vassal relationship, it shoudnt be much of an issue. Now for those players who like to have the best of the best of everything, its going to be a decided challenge to get there, and its going to require patron and vassal to have similar mindsets. But 70%? That should appease most ppl, andits nearly twice what the patron was getting in the old system.

Now one thing I have to fervently agree on here: the monarch is getting hosed. The two most important ppl in a clan to any member (besides their own vassals) should always be their patron and their monarch. These are the folks that show up on our allegiance panel, and the ones we are most likely to turn to when we need something, be it advise, help with a corpse or quest, a particular piece of equipment we need, or anything else in-game you can think of. Granted, the new /a chat makes it easier to reach out to the whole clan, but the ones each member will be most familiar with are usually the patron and the monarch.

Part of our "job" as patron or monarch is to be there when they call, to provide the help they seek. Our compensation (aside from any personaly gratification we get for helping) is the XP those players produce for us. This is the IN-GAME compensation we get. The patron is getting his slice of the pie, but the monarch is lucky to get crumbs. And the monarch is, by default, an "extra patron" to every follower in his/her clan--assuming the monarch actually CARES about their clan. I dont think its fair that the monarch is really getting the shaft here. The further away that folower is in the clan structure, the less the monarch gets from them; that doesnt mean the follower is any less dependant on the monarch.

What we need is a bit of compromise on that. There needs to be a tweak to the new system that gives monarchs a better share. How much? well thats hard to balance. On the one hand, in a small clan, something like 5% of all XP earned by a follower is pretty goos, and wont cause alot of problems. But 5% in a 1000-player clan can add up to HUGE amounts. BUt at the same time, the monarch of a 1000-player clan has alot more to do to keep the clan running than the monarch of a 50-man clan. And what about officers? Heheh we can really gum up the works here.

I cant offer a perfect solution to this, but I DO think that monarchs need a better form of compensation for BEING a monarch. And the promised "allegiance management tols", while great to havem dont really REWARD the monarch for their position. Having a mansion isnt much of a reward. And lets remember that the reward need not necessarily come in the form of XP. Perhaps some monarch-only game items that benefit the character in some way.

Or here is a nice though: Give monarchs a bonus to their OWN earned XP. Suppose you are a monarch with rank 1: you receive a 5% bonus to all XP you earn, whether hunting, trophies, or vassal XP. Rank 2 you get 10%, rank 3 you get 15%, etc all the way up to 50% at rank 10. This rewards monarchs based on the size of their clan AND the fact that they are a monarch. Because in order to get these bonuses, you must BE a monarchl you dont just get them for rank. Perhaps put a minimum time being that rank before the next level of bonus kicks in. SO basically, the players who have been monarchs for along time, who have the larger folowing, are proprtionately rewarded for their time served.

I like that idea. Hey IBN!!! :D



Ariella,
Allegiances have alwasy been intended to produce extra "free" XP. If they werent, they wouldnt have been coded in to do so. I dont think that the devs intended for the system to be used to the extent is HAS been, but they DID intend for us to get XP in the process; it ws the incentive to get players to come together and interact. The XP was supposed to draw us in, so that we would meet each other and make this a truly multiplayer environment. The perceived "problem" is that the XP became the only motivation for some ppl, and the interaction was something to "put up with" to achieve that goal. Which is fine for those players.

[sylphia]

If your potential reward for something is far greater in the new system than it was in the old system (90% passup as oposed to 44%), then yo uarent being penealized. It is harder to reach the new CAP (90%), but that doesnt mean you are goig to have an ungodly time reaching the old one (44%). If you can reach 44% with all of the "penalties" being applied to you, then you arent really being penalized.

[MeTaGarfield]

Ibn:

You forgot the majors. :-)

No big deal really, is just about 1% more passup anyway....
The level VII buffs are about 3%.
Synergy effects at that level is about 20%.

(I got those numbers from my previous post, they are not 100% accurate and based on the assumption that the bonus for leadership will cap at 100%, not 110% as it used to.)

So max passup would be about 94% (a year from now or so).


Meri:

The reason they chose to have no single stat base leadership or loyalty is that all should be on a perfectly even footing. No more bonuses for certain classes.

A skill will not become useless just because it isn't based on something. A skill is useful when adding experience points to raise it will give you an advantage.

And maximising a skill is something a level 126+ should do, not a level 20 trade mule.

[kdthradio]

I have a question,

This is coming from a non allegiance guy, so anyone like Meri or any other leader of a sizable group feel free to ring in and correct me or add on to this.

Does Turbine understand who it is that has and will continue to keep people playing when all the new content has been explored after the patch? I believe it is the Monarchs. I have heard of scavanger hunts for prize giveaway, I've heard of groups that revisit old content for nastalgic reasons on a weekly basis. Monarchs seem to create a reason to be on when no other reason besides treadmilling exists. They coordinate huge quests. they form groups in charge of all sorts of stuff like making sure all the mages get thier focusing stones as soon as they can and melees get their helm and shield of the similacrum when it's time. they make sure people get the benefit of thier knowledge and expertise on character creation. the list goes on and on. People with no clue of the scope of the game, are introduced to all of AC's many wonders due to the efforts of Monarchs. These are things they may never have discovered on thier own. and they re-up thier subscription each month because of it.

The down side for the Monarch is a lot of the time, like Meri pointed out, they don't get to hunt or see a lot of the new stuff in the game because of being a coordinator of other's fun in Turbines game. They log on and get 100 tells because of the direct chat channel to them. I need help with a body. So and so is mad about this thing you forgot. X player hasn't been on to set up the quest he was suppossed to lead tonight can you fill in and lead it. You name the poopy scenario and some poor monarch saved AC a player by rectifing it, at the expense of what he probably really wanted to do, update his SoLL, hunt OP, VoD or whatever.

Ibn the Monarch has your job. It is as thankless as yours is on a daily basis. You have the unsavory job of listening to people like me rant on the boards all day. Would you continue to do it at 10% of your current salary? That's what (seems to me) is about to happen to Monarchs that deal in loyalty not currency. If they are loyal to people they have helped and have helped them and thier Monarchy over the years. They get less than they deserve for thier efforts over the years helping people enjoy the game that they love.

I shudder to think of what happens when a good Monarch decides to move on or Step down. Players will follow a good leader to the next game a lot of the time. I don't want to see that. I am not an allegiance guy, but I have The Items I mentioned above because a Monarchy like Meri's was running the quest when I got there and they let me tag along. I urge you to find a way at the very least to recompensate your strongest asset for his/her work in keeping the game I love interesting [EDIT] to so many players when the newness of content fades, thus keeping people signed up for Turbines livelyhood.

I have been reaping rewards from both Turbines and the Monarchy's efforts on this game for years. I'm a solo player, I don't have a Monarchs problems but you do Ibn that's why I understand this even less.

and Ariella

I really think it's pathetic that people should now be MADE to chose xp over their casual playing friends.

[kdthradio]

opps wrong button

[Rojon]

Originally posted by kdthradio
I really think it's pathetic that people should now be MADE to chose xp over their casual playing friends.
People aren't being made to do anything.

You have complete choice in the matter.

[nanny I]

HELLO, I'm all for the XP change but as you stated you need loyalty & leadership maxxed, out to get the max amount of xp, but what about those that don't have leadership trained? Will the xp generated by our vassals be greatly reduced since some don't have leadership trained ?

[sylphia]

Rojon,
But we ARE being MADE to choose between the two. There is no denying that, though it isnt as extreme as some folks think it is.

nanny, you wil lnever receive less than 25% of what your evassal makes, regardless of any modifeirs, and whether or not yo uhave leadership trained. It can only go UP from there, based on how you fill in the other factors :)

[Rojon]

Originally posted by sylphia
Rojon,
But we ARE being MADE to choose between the two. There is no denying that, though it isnt as extreme as some folks think it is.
No, we're not.

You'll still get vassal xp regardless how many vassals you have.

You want higher rates of xp? Only recruit active vassals.

You don't care about xp and want more casual vassal relationships? You can go that way, too.

Your problem is you want it all, and that's unreasonable.

[Aesthetic]

No Rojon, the problem is that we are forced to make that decision AFTER we have already recruited vassals. I refuse to drop an old friend just to get more xp from the system, although, with the system being in place, I am encourged to do so.

Thats not OK.

[Ariella]

kd - a lot of the things you listed is usually done by the patron, not the monarch.

I agree with the part about the monarch fielding the tells, and having to deal with any "problems". Unfortunately a lot of this is caused by having only a "chain" patron. They don't know him, and won't help resolve any issues. So your only choice is to take it up with the monarch.

and...I agree with Rojon in the above post.

[kdthradio]

First Rojon thanks for posting the decal poll results I'm a huge Bandit Sight fan.

but, about your rebuttal to my earlier post....

"People aren't being made to do anything.

You have complete choice in the matter."

People didn't need to make a choice before, now they do That is not complete choice in the matter, it is a take it or leave it choice forced upon you.

Example: You have a car you have driven every day to work. You've owned it for 4 years. You have come to depend on it. You've modified it a bit here and there added better exaust sleek new rims (Decal) and invested in a better fuel system in order to get the power you want (joined an Allegiance or run a Monarchy). Uncle Sam passes a law you have no say in that tells you "I think it will work just as good with "improved" all stock equipment". So they come and take all the Suped up parts off and tell you that you can buy the replacements (re-arrange the monarchy find a direct Vassal) or have a car sitting on blocks that is useless to you (no more pass up because you are configured how it was plain to see was the best way to be). what if I don't have the money ( active players to hold rank to say keep the mansion the monarchy worked so hard to get and have everyone stay on and be rewarded for thier efforts in coordinating events and such)? Is that really a free choice? Am I really not being made to do anything I don't want?


Sam

---------------------------------------------------

I don't believe that "You are going to die because I will it to be so. Do you want to be shot or gassed?" is really an unforced choice.

[sylphia]

Originally posted by Rojon
No, we're not.

You'll still get vassal xp regardless how many vassals you have.

You want higher rates of xp? Only recruit active vassals.

You don't care about xp and want more casual vassal relationships? You can go that way, too.

Your problem is you want it all, and that's unreasonable.

No Rojon we ARE being forced to decide: keep inactive vassals or XP bonuses. There is no way around that; you can only have one or the other. Prior to this new system, it wasnt necessary to choose. Now it IS necessary to choose. Your own post supports that; it is a choice WE make, but it is a choice being FORCED on us by the new system.

And you are incorrect in ASSUMING **I** want it all. 90% passup is a nice goal but it isnt worth all that getting it requires. I will settle for the 70% or so I will likely get and be content with it. I dont hang on to vassals that have quit the game; I keep emails and adresses. I dont need a name popping up under my allegiance tab to remind me of our times together; I have screenies and memories and LOTS of stories. If one of my vassals leaves the game, after a (long) amount of time, I drop the toon, and they know when they leave they are welcome back. In the meantime, I dont have to worry about someon else hacking that account and runing around with my name impersonating a clan member. This is understood by all of my folowers, and I have some of the most loyal followrs I have ever met. If a follower specifically requests I keep them on, I do, knowing they intend to return. Its just not an issue for me.

But I understand the folks that resent being forced to choose between a layer they will likely never see again, or a new game dynamic that wasnt around when they first made that decision, and now requires them to re-evaluate it.

[kdthradio]

Ariella,

Unfortunately that leaves the people who have Monarchies that aren't that way (like a chain with only the Monarch to approach) with a problem. That is my objection. the guy who has been following the rules all along and at his core believes the same way as you do, gets the harshest treatment in the change. He is also the guy who gets to clean up the mess in it's wake. Honestly, is that really fair? I mean it would seem like not every Monarchy is put together with the fore thought of a Silver Citadel.

What is wierd to me is how fervently, I'm arguing a point that barely effects me. Maybe I'm just enjoying being involved more than usual, Or maybe I just don't like the Extreme alteration of 4 year old rules that wreak absolute Havoc for what seems like a small part of the community( at least no bigger than the opposing side ). Passup to my mule on the same account as my main is gone with this. Which means I'm forced to make a choice, that really is lose, lose for me. Remake my trade mule on my second accout and re-level him to 45, 63 if I want my main sworn under him again (Implication is not playing my 63 axer until I can swear him to the new mule, it took me 4 years to get him to 63) or try to advance him another way which entails me doubling my play time which I can't or retarding the progress of both my main and my mule. Niether choice was my choice to make for myself. Nor is either benificial to me. That makes me angry and unable to stop posting until the why? of, We are going to cut off your arm because your next door Neighbors fingertip is infected is explained to me satisfactorily.

That choice is this decisions only Direct effect on me. The other Things I bring up because The implimentation of this change seems destructive and devisive to me (not that we aren't divided on it already), more than it is beneficial to community in general. It also really doesn't seem well thought out to me.

How is this Change going to Effect You. I mean Tangibly in your everyday in game life or are we at war with an ideal of fairness brought on by not wanting to use the inplace system because it is contrary to your views. What about your Toon's advancement?will it be helped by this at someone else's expence? How has X player's advancement negatively effected your Toons? I can't see how the chainer has harmed mine or yours for that matter, so I don't understand.

I really am not trying to flame you, even if I come across harsh. I am actually interested in your and everyone else's view on the subject. Even if I don't agree with it. I really don't believe they will decide not to make the change, So I would at least like to get some handle on why. I'm told to grow up and deal with it, when the opposing side of the argument isn't expected to just do the same thing they are asking of me. Am I off base with this? I feel like this is a radical religious debate and not a quest for a good logical solution. That isn't a hit on religion either, just kind of a fact. If your Higher Power says it is one way if you're a believer, there is no shame in keeping the faith, but room for compromise of a Higher Power's eddict is slim to nil which makes it hard to find a middle ground or suffer the opposing view lightly, and this is definitely not that scenario, to me at least.

This argument is circular I guess. So round and round I go.

Sam

--------------------------------------------------------

Those people are named jones? I'm suppossed to be keeping up with them why? I don't get it.

[Rojon]

I have to tell you I find it somewhat amusing that some of the people who so vehemently would take away player's allegiance mansions are now complaining they can no longer exploit the xp/allegiance system.

In some ways that's really amusing in an ironic sort of way.

Bottom line is you're not being forced to do anything and saying you are is just plain misleading.

You can keep your vassals. The more they play, the more xp you'll get.

You want more xp? Move your inactive vassals elsewhere.

Don't want to do that? Fine, don't get the 00b3r l33t xp others will.

Guess what? You're still getting more xp from your vassals than under the old system.

But please, spare us the claims that you're being forced to do anything.

Some of you guys were screaming for xp chain fixes. Well, you got one, now you get to live with the consequences.

[sylphia]

Quit making assumptions Rojon. I never "exploited" any of the allegiance system. I fully support a player's right to chain; that doesnt make me a chainer. And in any case it wasnt an exploit. Abusing free accounts and making fake vassals is an entirely different issue than how much XP you earn. Some of the folks who chained used the free account exploit to pad their leadership bonuses, and THOSE ppl should have been forced to lose the fake vassals.

None of this changes the fact that players ARE being forced to make a choice between keeping incative vassals and getting better bonuses due to better average tome-sworn.

The devs are making a fundamental change to the system that REQUIRES you to do one or the other. Yo dont get to do both. You CANT do both. If you do one, you lose the other. Whether you WANT to make that choice or not, you HAVE to make that choice. That is what being forced means. They arent being forced WHICH way they choose. They ARE being forced TO choose. Beofr ethe new system, there ws no reason to choose between the two. Average time sworn was not a factor, so it didnt matter how long your other vassals had been sworn to you for that part of the equation. It didnt affect another vassal's passup to you. Now it does. Because of that change, you must now decide if old vassals are more important to you or the Xp passup is. Even your own posts agree on that. That is a choice. And its one you are being FORCED to make. HOW you decide is up to you, but you dont get to NOT CHOOSE.

Now, all that being said, the system itself would have been a great system had we started out with it. But cming 4 years into the game, with fudamental changes in the way it works that are much different than the old system, it FORCES players to chose between things they previously did not have to. That has been my point on that issue all along.

[MIdnightFire7]

For me its not that im not getting enough xp from vassles.

1) Its that I cant help out my friends who are my patron's patron, and so on.

2) Its that now with this why would any 126+ player take time to help a level 18 person since he/she will not benifit. Unless this person is super nice. Which lately is hard to find. They are all out pushing as much xp as they can to other players in the chain.

but thats just me. i dont pretend to speak for the masses. Just myself.

[StarchaserX]

If I understand it right, the current, old system, due to pass away next patch, used to DOUBLE your pass-at 240 hours in game.

If the current max is what, 44%? Then after 240 hours of ig time,
at max I pass-up 88%, and can pass-up a great deal of that to my other characters.

After patch, sure, I can gain 6% upfront, but lose everything after the 3rd character. And the 3rd gets a pittance.

I agree that this system is broken, but the new one penalises way too many people in acheiving it's goal.

After patch, to due the same thing, will cost me an extra $156.00
a year or so for an extra account.

Instead of developing 5 characters on one account,
I can at most, develop 2.1 characters on 2 accounts with 1
characters. Truly a huge waste of my time at work to earn more money. If it affects my pocket book, I am being penalised, no matter how you word it.

So the comparison of 90% vs 44% is a little....misleading?


How about some options since it's OUR xp, and it's OUR money:

1. Monarchy Bonus: 1% untrained, 2% trained.

2. The ability to send more xp to the 3rd person. Sure, I counld send 25% to someone else, but then I only get at *MAX* 10% for the 3rd? That's 2.5%-lol or 9% if both my chars are over 126.
That set-up just begs people to macro since that is the only way to pass-up enough. Or buy another account which I am not sure I want to do.

It's my xp, and my money. Let me have a little more control over it. Otherwise, you are just hurting single account holders and trade/tinker people wanting to make decent but not maxed trade/tinkers.

3. Mule/trade/Tinker bonus: If you have all the trades and all the tinker skills trained, all xp trophies handed in are tripled.
If the skills are ever untrained, all the xp in that skill simply disappears. (to avoid exploit)

4. Suggest that default trained loyalty be untrained and refund everyone 2 skill credit points + xp. Let us decide if we want loyalty or not since we already get base 25%.

Since xp for many will be permanently decreased, *bribe* us with
2 measely skill credits. That way the players that are feeling *penalised* receive something for something.

5. The ability to turn off vassel/patron xp. Seems that a lot of hunting vassel/patron relationships will grow to far apart in lvl, ability, and skillset under the new system.

6. The ability to send xp down to vassels, at the cost of not being able to send any up to patron. It has been mentioned many times the plight of tradesmules. This could help address that.

7. The ability to save pass-up xp in a token that can be traded or perhaps only given to characters on the same account.

Giving 25% to a patron is nice, would beeven better if I could give it to myself to do with as I please. I could then continue developing a decent trade/tinker mule.


One last thing, if inactive vassels can reduce xp%, then by the same token, wouldn't a char at 90% be averaged in with one at
25%? And if that 90% character did not play much, would it still have the effect of more than *DOUBLING* the xp of the 25%?

The Font effect I have mentioned before but no one has bothered to confirm or deny?

[KsBabe]

Thank you IBN for your letter and for the apology that was in it, as you stated it was ill written and did make some of us take offense against it. Also thank you for adding the age, that way if someone shows both the date of birth and age, they can figure up how long that person has actually played and it should take some of the grief away that people was worrying about, but as we all know, it wont take it completely away.
As for the explaination for the xp passup, we do need more examples and also to know if we will all be reset to 0 when we log in in March. I have been with my patron for 15 months, when she decided to join our guild. But my char was born on aug of 01. Will this hurt her amount of xp that she receives from me?
As for time in game, well some of us has real lives outside the game, and dont play as much as we did in the beginning. I think this part should be removed, base it on length with our patron and how much xp we have already passed up, not on time we play, I use to play each day at least 8 hours everyday, now I play maybe 12 hours a week, and I dont want to hurt my patron becuz I toned down my playing time.
As for the 4 active vassals, I have 5 vassals, 2 mules, and 3 vassals, one of which just came back from AC2, but I never dropped him, his time with me has been well over a year, but he wasnt here, and I refuse to drop anyone under me, xp dont matter at all to me, it is the friendships that we have built over the years that is important, BUT some people NEED the xp passup and it is those that you are hurting aka trademules, tinkermules, etc., are they suppose to drop their longtime friends just to get their mules leveled?
Please think of something before this March patch that will help these characters, and as a few said, their mules are too burden to go to the casinos much less hunt.
Two questions, Are we getting leadership as a free skill? And if so, do the ones that has it trained get the skill credits spent on it back?
If we get the skill credits back it could help our mules out (if we get some more forms of storage for our houses so we can unload our mules) get skills to fight with. This in return could help solve our mules leveling or at least let them be able to run to the casinos since there is no tieable portals directly linked to them.
Another thing, taking our mules to gamble for their levels is expensive!, we pay 50k for one high gambling token, only to get something worth 10k in xp. If this is the way that you want us to level our chars then lower the cost of gambling back to the way it was before it was raised and leave the xp trophies where they are! Maybe add something that is a rare reward that is worth 10mil in xp, make us want to gamble away our pyreals to level, give us something worth risking spending all our hidden back pyreal notes to level our unhuntable characters!
Give us dungeons, not to hunt in but ones to find our way through to get goodies that adds points to our given tinks, add puzzles that we have to solve at the end to receive the reward and better yet add more ways to get skill credits so we can train other skills so maybe we can hunt the mules that we didnt know in the end we would have to hunt when we created them, or at least where they can get melee to help them out!
In other words, Turbine please give us something that benefits us the players to the good instead of taking away everything that players has used to help them in the last four years!
If you take candy away from a baby, you have to give it something else to pacify it for taking it away or else you will have to listen to it scream bloody murder for what seems like a long time to come. And by all the posts on the new way AC is going, it better be something great, or Turbine you are in for the long haul of hearing the screaming and maybe losing alot of loyal fans!

[Rojon]

Originally posted by sylphia
None of this changes the fact that players ARE being forced to make a choice between keeping incative vassals and getting better bonuses due to better average tome-sworn.

Because of that change, you must now decide if old vassals are more important to you or the Xp passup is. Even your own posts agree on that. That is a choice. And its one you are being FORCED to make. HOW you decide is up to you, but you dont get to NOT CHOOSE.
Ok, now the arguments have gone from "they're forcing us to do this" to "they're forcing us to have a CHOICE"?

Uh-huh.

I say again:

You're not being forced to DO anything!

If you had to answer a question when you logged in giving you a choice to drop vassals or not, THAT would be forcing you to make a choice.

Under the new system you HAVE a choice.

Keep your inactive vassals and get less than the "optimal" amount of vassal passup, even though its still more than you got before, or reassign them elsewhere to get your uber leet xp rates.

They're not forcing you to do anything. You don't have to do anything.

Now you simply have a choice about which way you want to go.

I'm starting to suspect I'm once again talking to a wall, therefore I'm simply not going to repeat myself anymore.

It's obvious to me they aren't forcing you to do one darned thing.

'Nuff said.

[AC-Vet]

I find it enjoyable to read this thread....

I see ppl tring to predict the changes based off info provided by ibn, making up formulas on how to achieve max pass up stated by him...which I may add is not complete so it is a unknown at this time....

I see ppl complain about dropping vassles to do it....if I gathered right, we only need 4 active vassles to max it, that leaves 8 open spots for inactive long time friends...so i don't see a real big deal there.

I see ppl saying we are forced into making choices....we always had choices....you either joined a chain or you didn't...reguadless on how large it was or for what purpose..IE tinker mules and such. The issue that was unfair in the system was turning 1 million into 5 million....don't know about you but- that isn't logical...so yes the system was and is broken and ppl took full advanage of it..By thier own Choice.

I only expressed my thoughts on this tread as resistant to change the entire system making it more complicated, all that was really needed was to fix it so that 1 mill couldn't be made into 5 mill....it's a little late after 4 years to start trying to change it in such a way that it impacts the playerbase as it will....

I am not a chainer by definition...I have my char's linked together to help each of them gain by no matter which char I play....they benefite me and my friends linked together. We do not camp dung's nor do we macro....basically what I am resistant to is the complete break down so late in the game that will tear down my structure. I have no intrest in finding active vassles now and waiting for a long time to re gain what I already have....means me helping myself and my friends linked together....after 4 years...I have just now hit 126 on 1 char....so now its time to fight my other toons more, I have reached my goal of 126..

In Closing I think altering a system that has been a way of life for 4 years is a foolish move, all that had to be done is fix the pass up making it 3 chars deep and formulating it off 100% 70% 40%...that would of prevented it from turning 1 mill into 5 mill passed up 20+ chars.
I also think that the game only reconizes level 126 so why not at that level start handicaping a char by age effects like lowering stam per swing, mana by magic casting, even health by hits....as your reached the max age limit of the game of 126 then logically your a old man....subjected to same as in real life....this sure would of stopped everyone tring to hit level 500....thus lowered the exploit of macroing 24/7 and exploiting dungs so others could enjoy them too.... I also suggested a time limit spent in dung's....I have yet to see a quest take more than 3 hours to complete....ok put a timer on the entry portal for 3 hours...after 3 hours, u get portaled out to a safe spot....THAT WOULD KILL the 24/7 macros out there.....they could only be away from KB for 3 hours total...not full proof but would be a big deterent....if they can set quest timers then they can also set portal timers just as easy....hows that for alternative thinking?

[Meri]

Originally posted by AC-Vet
I see ppl complain about dropping vassles to do it....if I gathered right, we only need 4 active vassles to max it, that leaves 8 open spots for inactive long time friends...so i don't see a real big deal there.
If I understand Ibn correctly, all of your vassals time in game/real time computations will be averaged together to affect your leadership bonus. That means if the amounts designated are (just an example... no real clue here) 25, 30, 40, 50, 20, 0, 0, 0 for 8 vassals, 3 of which are inactive, then your bonus would be 20.625, not 33. Which means, yes, you're penalized for keeping inactive vassals.

Granted, it's a choice... but it's a choice that is being forced upon us by Turbine's changes and not one that we have ever faced before.

This month no one has to choose between loyalty to old friends and a bonus to experience... Next month, they will. Is that clear enough?

Luckily, with Turbine deciding to destroy experience chains, I won't have enough direct experience coming to me to make a huge difference... so I'll keep my friends... and Turbine "may" actually be able to entice them back into the game where they'll be met with open arms instead of being dropped like so many will be.

As far as my other characters go, the less active ones will be moved under other less active characters so they won't penalize their current patrons.

The truth is... the more I see of these changes, the more discouraged I become. Yes, I appreciated the apology... but I still don't feel that Turbine is listening to the majority of their loyal player base. I have 3 accounts still active... but if things go as I expect, I'll be down to 1 within a month (from 5 last month). "Meri" will be last to "go"... but I can't guarantee how long I'm willing to support a company that doesn't return the same support.

[sylphia]

KSBabe,
I can answer one of your questions for you. When the new system hits, your REAL TIME SWORN will be set to 0, until the first time yo log in with that ton. Once you log in, the server will immediately recalculate it and then begin incrementing from that point normally. So if you never log that toon, it will always read as 0. Once you lo gin, you are fine :)

Rojon,
I have not changed my stance in the slightest; i havent reworded it in any way. Its the same as I have said at least 4 or 5 times now. You ARE being forced to choose between passup bonus and keeping vassals who are inactive. You ARE being forced to make that choice. What part of this is so difficult to understand: YOu can EITHER drop your average real-time time sworn by keeping vassals that are inactive, OR you can drop those vassals to raise your average and gain better passup. There is no third option, and there is no way to avoid making that decision. Whether you WANt to make that choice or not is irrelevant; you HAVE to make it. That is what being forced means. Prior to this system, you did NOT have to make that choice, because it wasn a factor. Now it IS going to be a factor and you MUST choose between the two.


If you had to answer a question when you logged in giving you a choice to drop vassals or not, THAT would be forcing you to make a choice.


You ARE being asked that question. Anyone who knows abot the upcoming change is being asked that question RIGHT NOW. You have to decide which one you want. If you dont know the change is coming, then the system will make the decision FOR you, by factoring in the times of the inactive vassals, whether you want it to or not. IF you "choose" not to make a decision, as soon as you log on, it wil be made for you. You ARE being forced to decide. I dont understand why you dont get this, nor why you want to argue so vehemently that something isnt part of the new system, when it IS. If you know of a way where you can keep inactive vassals WITHOUT their having any affect on your real-time sworn, then by all means share it. So long as we must choose one or the other, we ARE being forced into this decision.

[StarchaserX]

Would it be better to just remove ig time, and make loyalty/leader
(allegience) a skill solely based on RL time passed, without the ability to be player modified by pumping the skill itself?

In other words, remove the ability to put *any* xp into loyalty/leader, so that only the length of RL time sworn to patron
can max it? That way we are all on equal footing?

I also think this Forced to choose issue is a ploy by turbine to free up server resources.

Think about it: all the x-server mule trades are basically inactive.
Old friends no longer playing are inactive.

How many of those will be dumped/deleted?
If it character exists, doesn't the fact of existence use up memory
to store it? (or something like that?)

[kdthradio]

unless they have a specific reason to do so I doubt anyone will take the time to delete unused allegiance mules. So I don't think the server space thing is an issue really. I could be wrong though.

Sam

[StarchaserX]

Perhaps, but think of how many people in chains, and how many of them with x-server trades for rank mules.

That is probably 5x the active population of the servers.
(It's a guess and most likely wrong, but not unlikely that there are more inactive than active characters.)

How many resources would be freed up if say only 20% of those were deleted?


And when they say this will destroy monarchies and chains,
I am not suprised when they are forced to make a choice between
inactive friends that drag down xp, active friends that raise xp,
inactive rank/leader mules that increase rank and lower xp.

For the main goal of decreasing chain effectiveness, Turbine
sure has very poor aim in hitting the target.

If this is the old tired idea from 2 years ago, being applied to the
present situation, what would have worked then, will not necessarily be the best right answer now.

[Rojon]

Originally posted by StarchaserX
How many resources would be freed up if say only 20% of those were deleted?
If a character purge were necessary to improve performance, I'm sure there would have been another one in the 2 years or so since the last one.

[Ariella]

You ARE being forced to choose between passup bonus and keeping vassals who are inactive. You ARE being forced to make that choice.

Ok, you're into figuring the statistics and such...how many vassals at 0 (the longtime but never played) can you have before it lowers you below what you were making now? What, 44%?

[ApolloAce]

Excuse me,

No matter how bad your setup is the lowest you'll ever get is 25% which is 19% less than the current maxiumum of 44%.

By the way thats 25% from each active vassal as long as they log in after the change you will get 25% from them minimum.

[sylphia]

Ariella,
The short answer is "dunno". If you want a little longer and more detailed explanation of WHY, read on.

All we can do right now is "best guess" at that. We know that we will never go below 25% passup from a vassal and that the absolute MOST we will get is 90%--but according to Ibn, that requires having ALL factors capped:

(1) Your leadership (which MUST be speced to reach the cap)
(2) You vassal's Loyalty (which must also be speced to get the full cap)
(3) You must have 4 vassals (you can have ore but they wont count for additional bonuses)
(4) In-game time your vassal is sworn to you
(5) Real-time your vassal is sworn to you.
(6) The average IGT and RT that all of your vassals have been sworn to you.

We dont know how much each of these 6 factors accounts for in the equation. We can ASSUME they will be roughly equivalent, but we already know that time-sworn will account for more of our bonus than number of vassals (Ibn stated this some time ago), so that would be a bad assumption. We can also assume that if we reach 50% of the cap on each factor, that it will translate to halfway from 25% to 90% (57-58%). But again it would be only an assumption with nothing to truly back it up yet.

We know what the physical caps are for #1 and #2 (236, must be speced); we know the bonus for number of vassals (#3) is 4. But we DONT know what the new IGT (#4) or RT (#5) requirements are. They could be 200 IG-hours and 2 RT years, they could be less, they could be more. Without knowing those, we cant effectively guess how they will effect #6. We do know that, since #6 is an average of 4 and 5 on all vassals sworn to you, the lower those times are, the less bonus you will receive. In what actual proportion, we do not know. For all we know, the average time sworn may only account for 5 of the 65 percent points required to get from 25 to 90, or it could count for 50 of it. Which is why I have said I dont think its going to make as huge of an impact on passup as some folks think it will. I think that, with all the other factors in the new calculations, average time sworn will have a relatively minor impact.

Given enough time, we will eventually figure out the formulas, but for now, your guess is literally as good as mine.

[ApolloAce]

Sylphia,

Has it been stated that #4 and #5 have been extended?

I thought these were already factors in the old set up.

I thought I read somewhere the max time sworn was 240 hours.

Not that I bothered to check, mainly because as long as my tinker was making some sort of xp I never cared to check. :)

[sylphia]

Apollo,
Since the old numbers for in-game time sworn must be "recalculated" to their new equivalent in the new system, the amount of time in the new system MUST have changed. We cant say for certain if it was up or down, but its an almost sure bet that it was raised, since the point is to make it HARDER to achieve max passup in the new system. Real-time sworn was never a factor in the old system. From the first Allegiance Article:


For both Loyalty and Leadership, the time sworn modifier will now be a factor of both in-game time and real time.


As for what the old time limit was, I have seen everything from 50 hours to 240 quoted as the cap, and I have even seen a claim that the 44% max was doubled at the cap (which is bogus since by definitiion maximum is the MOST you can make). I dont know what the actual timer cap was in the old system. Most of my vassals are so old their pixles are going gray so its always been a moot point for me :)

[ApolloAce]

I'm betting the RL time will be easy to hit. The IG time more than anything would most likely bring the average down. After all who logs on the mule or the tinker all that much under any circumstances. I know the tinker only has about 40 to 60 hours online. Whereas the pushers average and exceed 200.

I think the most Ive seen the tinker make is about 33% in any case, that has more to do with loyalty and leadership than anything else of course and the fact that the most vassals it ever had is 6. That all cuts it down a bit.

[kdthradio]

Everyone loves Hypotheticals, so here is one for the You are not being forced to do anything enthusiasts.

I'm going to cut off your arm, but you get to choose which one and get this nifty plastic replacement that looks good but really doesn't function like at even 10% of the originals ability. They reply, "I'll take "c" don't cut my arm off." Not an option, left or right? That is some one forcing you to do something you don't want to do, not someone offering you a choice. Giving you the illusion of choice maybe, but the arm? It's going whether you like it or not.

That seems hard to understand for some reason I guess. I have no idea why.

Now if one of those, You are not being forced to do anything Enthusiasts, were losing fellowship xp, say being replaced by a flat extra +1k xp an hour while you were in a fellow not to exceed +2k total and capped at 55% of total xp for a 2 person fellow per player, 37% total per 3 man fellow. You get the idea. and Turbine says It's coming take it or leave it. Does that feel like a choice or something you have no control over being forced on you? You can either fellow or not.

I know since there is absolutly no way you can live with yourself if you agree with me, because if you did, you might understand that unfair can apply to someone else as well as you, I'll amswer for you.

Sure there is a choice Take it or leave it.

Sam

--------------------------------------------------------

I gotta admit I loves inflexible people.

[sylphia]

Appollo,
InGame sworn time is easy to max :) Just set the vassal toon up as a tradebot in the marketplace when you arent hunting with it. Whatever the magical number is, you will hit it. Real TIme--well that cant be "sped up" by any means I know of unless you own time machine :-P

[Taam]

Originally posted by sylphia
And you are incorrect in ASSUMING **I** want it all. 90% passup is a nice goal but it isnt worth all that getting it requires. I will settle for the 70% or so I will likely get and be content with it.

Hail sylphia,

I freely admit I am not a math major, but my interpretation of the Turbine Followup Post clarifying how IG/RT are calculated gives me the following impression. If you have one inactive vassal, OR one direct vassal who for whatever reason does not log in post the upcoming patch, there would be no IG modifier applicable for their patron as it would be set to 0.

Turbine's followup post contained the following phrase

Turbine's Allegiance XP Followup post
The two factors are multiplied together to get the final modifier.


As I read that, any mulitiplier with a 0 anywhere in the formula returns a 0 result. For demonstrative purposes, I'll use the formula Turbine used but add one inactive vassal and two additional vassals factored in at having reached 50%.

50% * 10% * 0% * 50% * 50% = 0%

The long and the short of it is, the way I read how the formula will be calculated, if there is even one vassal who is inactive for whatever reason post the upcoming patch, including but not limited to logging in at least once post patch, there would be no additional multiplier for ANY vassals in so far as the IG time. Further, the follow-up post by Turbine eludes to IG and RT multipliers being multiplied together. (see above quote)

if that is in fact truly the case, one inactive vassal or someone who fails to log on post patch, will completely negate any multiplier on pass-up experience.

Is that how you read it?

[MeTaGarfield]

Originally posted by Taam

As I read that, any mulitiplier with a 0 anywhere in the formula returns a 0 result. For demonstrative purposes, I'll use the formula Turbine used but add one inactive vassal and two additional vassals factored in at having reached 50%.

50% * 10% * 0% * 50% * 50% = 0%


That is not how time average works today and it is not likely it will work after the patch.

Say full bonus is 100 times units for real time and 100 time units for ingame time.

Now, if you have three vassals who had the following numbers (ingame@realtime) measured in time units. Note that 100 time units for ingame time is not the same number of hours as 100 time units for real time.
I am not even looking at the transition here.

230@80 - vassal who hunted quite a lot (or a trade/buff bot)
10@100 - long time mule vassal
0@0 - not logged on

The average times for leadership would be:
(230+10+0)/3 = 80 for in game time. So the bonus is 80%.

(100+80+0)/3 = 60 for real time So the bonus is 60%

Multiply these and you get a net bonus of 56%.

If they never log again, real time will eventually average 100% for a total of 80%.

Drop the never logged toon and you get:
120 for in game time (that is 100%)
90 for real time (that is 90%)

You immediately get 90% of the maximal time bonus.
And with time you get 100% but since they are not hunting, well, you get only pass-through experience. (Or get another vassal and these will actually help your average times!)



Now, these percentages is not passup, they are how much of the time bonus you could get that you get.

Example:
Old loyalty, 100% meant your effective loyalty was doubled.
Old leadership, 100% meant your effective leadership was increased by 20%.

[Taam]

Hail MeTaGarfield,

Again, my speculation takes two items from the XP Followup post whereas your reply uses deduction based on the most logical means, that of treating each vassal independantly in reaching a cumulative total. Please don't misunderstand me, in sincerely hope that you are correct in how the multipliers will be used, that of on a vassal by vassal basis. After re-reading the two phrases contained in the Allegiance XP Follow-Up post I came to a different conclusion.

The two phrases I drew my conclusions from are in the Allegiance Passup XP post, at http://ac.turbinegames.com/index.php?page_id=162 under Powerleveling Characters are as follows.

Followup XP Post from Turbine

The average of the times that all the vassals of this patron have been sworn (again both in-game and real time) are at the maximum.

The two factors are multiplied together to get the final modifier. For example, if you have been sworn for half the time needed for the maximum of the in-game modifier, but only a tenth of the time needed for the real time modifier, you will only have 5% of the maximum time sworn benefit. (50% * 10% = 5%)


Please note the use of the word multiplied as opposed to 'added together'.

Perhaps it's time for Turbine to enter into this discussion with a scenario having both one inactive vassal (say with a cancelled account) as well as an active vassal who has not logged in post patch and clarify which of the above two scenarios, yours or mine, are correct?

[StarchaserX]

Smart business rarely says: we need to do a character purge.

They implement a program with one stated main goal, with the
*unfortunate* side effect of addressing every other issue they
would like to address in some way, but feel it in their best interest to not approach in a direct manner.

Hence all the collateral damage that's going to happen in a few weeks and the sympathic noise that basically say:

like, we care. really. but are not going offer any of the options or flexibility you currently enjoy under the old system.

[Ibn]

Originally posted by Taam
As I read that, any mulitiplier with a 0 anywhere in the formula returns a 0 result. For demonstrative purposes, I'll use the formula Turbine used but add one inactive vassal and two additional vassals factored in at having reached 50%.

50% * 10% * 0% * 50% * 50% = 0%

This isn't the case.

The IG and RL factors are multiplied together for each individual vassal, and then the average is taken of all vassals.

[Rojon]

Anybody else starting to feel some people are spending too much time with spreadsheets?

:)

[Jas-of-HG]

[EDIT] I'll remove my rant since Ibn answered quite nicely on another thread. Thank you!

[Hopeslayer]

I think what needs to be gone over is this.


Most people wont mind training leadership even the xp cravers.

However can you post what is the diferenve in max xp you can get if its only traned not spec cause most people are not going to spec it.


cause right now the only max # we have is 90% (originally it was Said as long as it is caped trained or speced) now you are saying there is a diference if its speced.


so if I am speced in leader and my vassel is spec in loyalty, I being the patron will get 90%.(as long as out time and skills are at there caps)



but if i am trained in leader and he is traned in loyalty i will get ??.
(agin with all of our factors caped)


This will let people that are wanting xp how big the Diference it is between spec and trained.

[Rojon]

I believe if you search Ibn's posts you will find the answer to that more quickly thank you think.

[Ibn]

Originally posted by Hopeslayer
but if i am trained in leader and he is traned in loyalty i will get ??.
(agin with all of our factors caped)

With all other factors capped, patron's Leadership and vassal's Loyalty trained, your maximum pass-up is about 81% of earned XP.

If one or the other is spec'd, it's 86%.

[StarchaserX]

Thank-you Ibn.

You answered nicely my question of the font effect.
So really, the best way to increase the xp of any active vassels would be to have a few characters under (mine, bots) that exist for the sole purpose of modifiying the pass-up of my active vassels.

[Ibn]

That would only be true if the other characters had greater in-game and real time sworn modifiers, bringing up your average. And the impact of any specific character's time sworn modifier varies greatly depending on base skill and other factors.

So -- maybe. :)

[sylphia]

Taam,
you have misunderstood the way the formula works, though yo are close and its a relatively easy mistake in interpretation.

What yo did was multiply all of the vassals' "final" modifiers against one another, when you should have been ADDING them, then dividing by the total number of vassals to find their average.

50% * 10% * 0% * 50% * 50% = 0%

should have actually been

(50% + 10% + 0% + 50% + 50%)/5 = 32%

Each of those percents in the average are RESULTS of multiplying IGTS by RTS. In the case of the zero, RTS was ="0" because the vassal never logged in after the patch, which means their IGS (no matter what value it was), multiplied by that 0 made the vassals' final modifier a 0. That is then averaged in with all of the other vassals' modifiers (they obviously DID log in at some point or they would also be zeros), and the result of 32% is the actual average modifier.

Did that clear it up? If you need it worked more, you can post here or PM me and I will work it one on one with you if you like :)

[Taam]

Hail sylphia,

Thanks for your reply and to Ibn for clearing that up.

Re-reading Turbine's original post in it's lack of specifics I am certain you can understand how I and others could draw the conclusion that it was the overall average (using a multiplier) as opposed to the cumulative.

Perhaps had the follow-up post stated that each vassals IG and RT would be calculated separately with the calculations made for all vassals independantly, and then averaged with all vassals to a total of the top four, some of the confusion could have been eliminated?

[sylphia]

NP Taam; all the info is there, but there is so much of it all at once that seperating it is rather like trying to carry water in a sieve :( I still have to doublecheck the articles and follow-up posts to make SURE I have it all straight in my head before I answer on it. To quote Ibn, it "makes my brain bleed" :D

[StarchaserX]

I posted a thread stating if you are unhappy with the Allegiance XP changes, should we try to organise a server-wide strike, as in all the servers.

Reading it, I'd have to say that most people totally missed the point of it and thought the change was the greatest thing ever.

I agree that something should be done to dimished the way chains work, but not at the expense of Monarchs, trade/tinkermules, single account holders, etc.

It's the amount of collateral damage that bothers me, not the change in xp per se, but the people that used to benefit without exploiting the ucm+chain effect.

[kdthradio]

I'd like that link to the vn boards StarchaserX.

It also might be worth campaigning the VN board users to log on here and post thier veiws. As much as I hate this change and it's Ramifications, there aren't as many monarchs as regular players I'm afraid. Most regular people that pump up thier own personal trade mule, most likely have a 2 man chain so they will actually get an improvement. That means we are screwed most likely. It sucks and it is wrong, but grab your ankles. because I have no doubt when the smoke clears we will be stuck with the change.

When some players hear an end to chains they are happy about it because they lump them all together.

As vindictive as it sounds I raise my water glass in a toast "May all discriminators one day feel the sting of thier own bitter fruit." And yes, to everyone who wants to tell me what I meant by that, you are right. I love believing in karma, I guess because it takes the burden of revenge off of me so I can do other stuff. hahahaa like enjoy my life :D

All my original AC firends are gone, and here I remain.

Sam
----------------------------------------------
still angry, still here and still ....... (little voice says: Turbine's unwilling to take you in to account go play) oh well my addiction rages on, I'm logging in, I'll finish that thought later.

[MeTaGarfield]

Originally posted by Ibn
This isn't the case.

The IG and RL factors are multiplied together for each individual vassal, and then the average is taken of all vassals.

Now this is a critical point of information and so the people who complained about being punished are right and I have been wrong.

First a few thing on how the times are calculated:
In game time sworn is per character. For you leadership bonus, it counts how many hours you have spent in game since your vassal swore to you, if your vassal has done nothing, it won't matter.
Real time is, well, real time. There will be an approximation based on the vassals total online time, sworn online time and age, but this is not really relevant except that old inactive vassals will have 0 time real time.

Situation:
Vassal one has twice the amount of time needed (both for ingame time and real time). Just how this happened is not relevant, this could be two years from now for what I care. Also, vassal one may not have spent a single hour in game since swearing to you. But it was very long ago and _you_ spent load of time online since then.

Vassal two has 0 time real time because of never having logged in or because just having sworn to you. There will be some online time because the patron is an active character in the case of an old vassal, but the multiplication still makes this zero.

Note: How active (in game time) your vassals are does not in any way influence your leadership time bonus, except for the transition calculation of real time sworn.


My previous, faulty, assumption was that the times wold be averaged before calculation the time bonus.

If so, the average time for these two vassals would still be enough to get the full bonus.


But after what Ibn says, I will get an average of 100% and 0%, i.e. a 50% time bonus.

If the time bonus had been 100% max and no leadership bonus for number of vassals (impossible worst case scenario) this would drop my effective leadership skill by 25%.

At 0 leadership, I still get 50% of the experience my vassals pass up to me.

At max leadership (226) instead of 95% I would get 72.5%, a 24% penalty for taking on another vassal (or keeping an old one). Of course, in a real situation with less than four vassals there would be some compensation in the form of an added leadership bonus for number of vassals.

This is actually punishing people for taking on new vassals.

If the new vassal is active and produces more than 1/3 of the experience your old vassal creates, you will get more experience anyway. But with an old active high level vassal and a newbie not quite so active low level vassal, this is not the case. Your new vassal have to kill twice as much as your old vassal (even if both have put the same amunt of exp into loyalty) to produce the same amount of exp. This in itself is not a bad thing, but it makes this 1/3 amount to "having to make 2/3 as much". For a level 20 to kill creatures to get 2/3 of the experience an active seasoned level 100 does is somewhere between hard and impossible.


My suggestions:
Get rid of the averaging factor alltogether and calculate the time bonus for each vassal individually.
Get rid of the number of vassals bonus. It can so easily be abused.
Get rid of the online time factor, it too is easily abused.


This way taking on a new vassal will alway be beneficial, while cross server trades for leadership vassals will be a thing of the past.

You are not a worse leader for taking on new people. You are actually a better leader of you can keep your old vassals while taking on a new one as well.

You are not a better leader for having inactive vassals, but you are a better leader for having active vassals that produce experience.

While online time may be a better indication of activity than real time, since all we are really interested in is getting the patrons in game time up (who cares if the inactive rank mule have bad passup, they don't make any experience to get passup from anyway) all we really measure is the activity of the patron. So does spending a lot of time in game without your vassal make you a better leader? No, not really. So we can safely get rid of the in game time bonus for leadership.

For loyalty, in game time can be an indication of activity that should benefit the patron through an increased bonus to loyalty.

On a side note:
What if a really old character with little online time was sworn to a relatively newly created character and both then have been online a lot?

Example:
A: 1 year old, 1 hour in game time
B: 1 hour old, 1 hour in game time.
At this point, both are level 5 after the newbie quest.
A swears to B 10 days before the patch.
Both characters spend all time (240 hours) in game before the February patch and max their current time bonus. Actually, it is enough that the vassal (A) does this.

At the time of the patch:
A is 1 year and 10 days old.
B is 10 days (and the odd hour) old.

A hase been in game for 241 hours and of these has spent 240 hours sworn to B.

Using the transition approximation given, this means A would be sworn to B for 373 days (rounded down) while B has an age of 10 days.

Oups.

This brings up another question:
What real time sworn will a patron use for its leadership calculation if it has not logged in but the vassal has?

Thinking about this implies that the real date sworn is stored with the vassal. If so, the answer would be "that which was calculated when the vassal logged in".

And you do leadership and loyalty calculations for characters not logged in all the time, or I would not get experience on my main when my archer (several levels below) has hunted. I would have to wait for every character in the chain to log in.

And I still have no answer as to why Turbine is unable to retrieve the data from their data base without having the game live.


Code that is meant to be run once per character (except character creation etc, I am talking these one time data transformations behind the scene) is essentially "dead code", even if it stays in for the rest of the games life "in case anyone old log on".

What about a very old charater who hasn't been purged and while it was gone there were two or three of these changes? Are you sure the code would work? Do you really want to change the code so it works for att those cases? (Once change, two changes, three changes.)

It's just so much easier to have every character converted at once and then forget about the old system and this approximation formula.

The fact that Turbine claims that they cannot do this tells me a lot about the state of the code, and it is very bad news for the games future survival.

I don't think a game like this will die becuse people stop playing, as long as there is new content every month and the game stays up between patches.

But if the last months problems are any indication, the software is beginning to fall apart.

Typical life cycle:

1. Young or Beta.
Lots of bugs hidden in the software, as time goes on these are weeded out one by one and the software gets more and more stable.
2. Mature
Most of the old bugs, at least the showstopper ones, are found and fixed. New functionality is added without too much trouble. The really big showstoppers are rare, if at all present. There are parts of the code no one wants to touch, but they still work.
3. Old and rotting.
The original developpers may have left, countless patches for old bugs and new functionality has made the software unstable. New changes cause big trouble at an increasingly alarming rate. Now something has to be done about those old "stinkers", the parts of the software no one has dared touch in several years. There are modules that no one remembers what they were used for or how they work. Basically, if it had been a desktop application, you would discontinue it and start work on a fresh project.

Just looking at the history of major problems (not counting the DT rollback because of bad backup routines) I see that we had a long period of relatively small problems (mostly money macroes and such, which are not software platform issues) followed by a month where dungeons had to be closed of because of weird bugs.

Yes, part of the problem may have come from Caul and the landscape changes there, but if this causes trouble in the Tusker dungeons and a specific mansion dungeon it is a clear indication that there is something going on.

Changing compilers can aggravate the problems that come from software rot, so that is a factor as well. But healthy and well maintained mature software will not have these issues.

PS: And I still think monarchs are worth an experience reward for taking care of a monarchy.

(Not sure, but I think I just spent three hours writing this. Need a better hobby.)

[Ariella]

I was curious, so I looked it up.

Here's the link to StarchaserX's post on the VN boards

http://vnboards.ign.com/Wintersebb/b5334/63855018/p1

[Meri]

Given than Wintersebb probably had the most vocal "anti-chain," "anti-everything" posts to begin with... I'm not surprised StarchaserX was shot down.

Besides that, how many people don't visit the Vault at all anymore because it's turned into very little more than "The Classifieds" and "rep checks."

It's a shame that Turbine didn't conduct another "real" survey of their current playerbase before instituting such drastic changes, but c'est la vie. When they go into effect and people start complaining/leaving in droves... perhaps they'll listen... but I doubt it. I have no faith in a company that discards loyalty so very easily.

[Ariella]

They do? I seriously didn't know that.

I thought it they had the most xp chain run allegiances and ucms of any server. (Well, other than Dark Tide.)

When it first opened, I think I remember reading how people formed chains to get to the highest levels fast.

I guess I must be getting alzheimers.

[FmrSentFlatfoot]

Besides that, how many people don't visit the Vault at all anymore because it's turned into very little more than "The Classifieds" and "rep checks."

You forgot "Flamers and Trashers Paradise", especially Leafcull. ;)

When they go into effect and people start complaining/leaving in droves...

Ain't gonna happen Meri, more people want these changes than don't. Most people who claim they're going to leave, are usually found out as being large hot air balloons, or "windbag" to coin the phrase. They say it, but it's all talk.

I've been here a long long time, as long as Kraum, and if you talk to him, he's not going anywhere either. Just roll with the punches, go with the flow, because there's nothing constant but CHANGE, and a change is what we've all needed for a long time. Now it's finally here, and seems the majority are welcoming it.

If it turns out it harms things too greatly, I'm sure Turbine will make alterations to smooth things out. Not insofar as giving us back unearned XP, but mainly structural problems etc.

It's always worked out before, and we've all survived. We shall all continue to do so, even this time. :)

You're a good egg Meri, well liked by many as well as myself. We'll adapt and survive.

Since you chose not to hide your IG ID, I'd prefer to remain anonymous here, thanks. ;)