Nuhmudira's Alignment [Archive] - Asheron's Call Forums

TheKnight

12-06-2004, 05:36 AM

Ok folks this is for the discussion of the topic above. I shall list both possitive and negative's that this key npc player has had in AC over the years and I would like to hear your feedback on what you think her alignment leans more towards. I'll also add in my comments and views on this matter.

Some information on her:

Name: Nuhmudira

Race: Milantean

Classification of Powers: Blood Magic Sorceress (Ancient Falacot Blood Magic Rites, Book Of Blood used with said rites. Book is said to be alive)

Alias's: Monster of the Labrynth, Scholar of Tirethas

Known Affiliates: Martine, Melanay, Gaerlan, Zharalim, Consortium of Archmages.

Mentioned In: (links availble at http://ac.warcry.com/lore/encyclopedia/index.php?action=display&id=274 )

"23 The Widening Gyre", "26 The First Strike", "27 Flesh and Blood", "29 Persuasion", "30 Betrayal", "31 Hidden Vein", "33 Repercussions", "34 Atonement", "35 Verdict", "36 Festivus", "41 A Perfect Paradox", "43 Discoveries", "45 A Swelling Tide", "46 Into the Darkness", "47 Groundswell", "48 Reign of Terror", "49 Visions in the Darkness", "Cydna Wren's Journal", "Gaerlan's Diary", "Gaerlan's Research Notes", "Homestead", "Isparian Arms", "Queen in the Storm", "Reawakening, Part 1", "Reawakening, Part 2", "Reawakening, Part 3", "Reawakening, Part 5", "Reawakening, Part 7", "Reawakening, Part 8", "Reawakening, Part 9", "The Boon", "The Brink of the Abyss", "The Moars", "Treatise on Essence"

The Possitves:

I. Housing Barriers

II. Creating the statues in towns to symbolise our fallen hero's.

III. Unlocking more powerful magics/changing the flow of mana on dereth

IV. Unlocking better armor/weapons for us to use.

V. Making Gaerlan an undead trapped forever in a prisim to be killed over and over again throughout time for the destruction he brought to dereth.

VI. Driving the Ancient Olthoi Queen far underground and stopping her from coming to the surface. Thus putting an end to the Olthoi Invasion.

VII. Producing Burun slayer weapons.

The Negatives:

I. Sacraficing Countless Humans to make all the above happen.

II. Practicing the ancient art of Falacot Blood Rite Magic, forbidden by the Empyreans and other races for it's brutality and evil origins.

III. Sacraficing countless people to sustain herself and the book of blood over the decades. She even admits to losing count of just how many she has killed to sustain herself.

IV.Sacraficing countless Zharalim from Hamud ibn Rafik's ruined Tenebrous Edge order. Stateing that nobody will miss them since they are bandits.

V. Sacraficing her closest aid and friend Yal ibn Rab to provide the catalyst for making another route for mana to flow on dereth.

VI. Had Oswald Kill Jaleh al-Thani the Nobleman and former Mayor of Ayan.

VII. Sacraficing more Zharalim to drive back the Ancient Olthoi Queen, but she is never defeated as Nuhmudira claims they will all be wiped out by her power. So the Ancient Queen is still deep underground bidding her time.

VIII. Hiring Oswald to assasinate Queen Elyasa. (which failed due to the quick action of the council)

So there you have a brief bit of info on Nuhmudira's past and present. Now as we now know the person that trapped Nuhmudira in the Gelidite Libary was Gaerlan and he was the one who was Kai's Master. However even with this information now, there is alot of pro's and con's to her story. Most noteably is her pure hate for the Empyreans and more specifically Asheron himself. She has stated numerous times in the lore that she will prevent the Empyreans from reclaiming Dereth by any means nessesary.

She gives no second thought to sacrificing humans, as she has killed so many she has lost count. Her closest ally and friend was willing to be a sacrfice yet she posioned him to sacrfice him, because she was not willing to take the risk he might so no.

Side Note: If the host is a willing sacrafice the power gained by the blood sorcerer/sorceress/receiver of power is 100 times stonger then if it is an unwilling host, which was the case with Yal ibn Rab.

An example is how Asheron's mother gave her life up to save her son when they confronted BZ and had this rite used on her, and is why Asheron is so powerful and has lived for so long since his mother was a willing sacrafice.

It's also speculated that after she sacraficed Yal ibn Rab since he was an unwilling sacrafice, that Nuhmudira changed into an Undead on that day. This has yet to be confirmed but all signs point to this being the case in the lore.

She has done both good and bad for Dereth, so I ask you all to freely discuss your views on this subject and post your views on this matter.

I personally think that human sacrafice is wrong, no matter what the situation is. It is taking the life of someone for your own needs and in my eyes is evil. True she has given us many things, but at what cost? How many had to die for us to get these benefits, and really was it worth it?
Nuhmudira did not build the houses, only provided the ability to have barriers around them. And they are not strong enough to keep a powerful enemy out like a rogue Emperyan (like Gaerlan or whoever else there is), Undead, or even Olthoi out as they could just dig under it and come up through your basement floor.

She gave us stronger weapons, and changed the flow of mana but again did this really help us or hinder us? It also made the other creatures stronger don't forget in the process as the essenses all got blown up, and they where alive, which makes it even more sad.

She gave us statues, but those same statues attacked us and tried to wipe us out of existence. She even said she was going to use them to protect this land from an Emperyan invasion, but instead they turned on us and we had to destory them to stay alive. She never did aplogies for this, and acted like she had nothing to do with it.

So to me after weighting all the lore in my eyes she is evil and power hungry, and will stop and nothing and no one for her own selfish needs, as well as her pure unadulterate haterd of Asheron and the Empyreans. Which makes her the most deadly of all, in my eyes.

Not to mention what you haveto do on the Soulstone quest if you choose to damn her in the Libary, that alone should strike some cords with people.

Regards

P.S I did not put in what the rewards are for saving/damming her because I go by lore and lore alone, not by which item is going to serve me better.

Cezium

12-06-2004, 06:06 AM

Blood magic sounds great to learn.

meridian59gar

12-06-2004, 06:09 AM

She invented housing barriers; she's pure evil. That alone destroyed the entire game.

Renegade Knight

12-06-2004, 07:08 AM

Welcome to human nature!

Now, what do you was the first thing mankind learned to do?

Kill. Plain and simple. Its our basic instict too, although we have developed to the point we have the morals and ethics not too, its still part of us. Look at video games, why do you think we're so attracted to ones with people killing?

_b0o

12-06-2004, 08:51 AM

Housing + Barriers are bad, game wise and lore wise. =P

1. Screwed over a lot of PvP =P

2. Who knows when she decides to turn them on and trap all the owners inside ^_^

Protes

12-06-2004, 11:57 AM

I disagree with the Positives of Nuhmudira listed in the original post.

Housing Barriers - The Covenant Stones which produce the barrier were made by Nuhmudira killing Zharalims. Though these Zharalims were supposedly criminals back on Ispar I still feel this doesn't give Nuhmudira the self proclaimed right to act as judge and juror.

Creating the statues in towns to symbolise our fallen hero's -
I don't think the statues symbolize or is an honor of our fallen hero's since there's only 2 hero statues out of the 14 types made - Ben Ten and Thorsten Cragstone. In my opinion if it was to honor Isparians then we would of seen other statues made of Isparian heros; like Lilthia, Trothyr, etc.

Unlocking more powerful magics/changing the flow of mana on dereth -
I believe this has or will have a negative impact. During the time when this occurred Asheron had first thought Martine did this, and Asheron was very concerned with the disruption to the leylines. If I'm not mistaken Asheron is still working towards finding a way to repair the leylines.

Unlocking better armor/weapons for us to use -
Nuhmudira did this by tapping into the leylines, which I believe isn't a good thing.

Making Gaerlan an undead trapped forever in a prisim to be killed over and over again throughout time for the destruction he brought to dereth -
Again Nuhmudira decides to act as judge and juror. I feel Gaerlan should of been killed not turned undead. Since Gaerlan is undead now this could mean some time in the future he could escape.

Driving the Ancient Olthoi Queen far underground and stopping her from coming to the surface. Thus putting an end to the Olthoi Invasion -
Though Nuhmudira did put an end to the Olthoi Insurgence, I think "we" blindly assisted Nuhmudira to perform the Ritus on the Ancient Olthoi Queen. Nuhmudira had risen a buried Falatacot Temple, thus awakening the first ancient Falatacots from slumber. 6 months later the portal of Bur was opened and we were invaded by Buruns. The effects of the Ritus itself on Nuhmudira and if there was an underlying motive to doing it, still awaits to be seen but I don't think it will be good.

Producing Burun slayer weapons - These weapons are okay, but in my opinion we still could of won are fight against the Buruns without the slayer weapons.

TheKnight

12-06-2004, 05:19 PM

I agree with all of you except for Cezium,

Housing barriers are definatly bad for the game, and do not promote community at all. I always turn mine off because I think it's stupid to have them on and not let people see your house and what you have hooked up.
Not to mention if your away say a month a friend can pay your rent if need be, where if it's on your out of luck.

It also is unfair to Darktide players and people can just recall and hide in their homes and the other pk players can't do anything about it, which that's not how darktide is supposed to work.

For the essences that Nuhmidira blow up, I remember that they where alive and acted much like wisps do. So we know they where sentient creatures and I also agree with Protes that i'm sure it will have a negative impact down the road for us in Dereth. It fits into how Nuhmudira works to as all she can do is destory and kill, never build and create things that actually help our people. Every single thing she has ever done has attacked us or harmed us in someway, like the statues for example.

I remember reading back in 2000 when we had a choice to save or damn her in the Gelitite Libary, and how even Turbine was surprised that the bulk of the servers chose to save her. I know I was quite shocked when that information came out in the next patch, as I could not belive it honestly.

Minnor sinning is one thing, but to kill so many you lose count I don't think that is good in any way shape or form. Numudira said herself that she would not be able to get away with what she's done here on Dereth back on her homeworld, gee I wonder why. Sure you can forgive, but you'll never forget those kinds of actions, nor should you. I think there is a point of no return, where you become so corrupted after so many sacrafices that you have noway to redeem your soul, as you see what you do normal and just another task to do in your daily chores.

Speaking of which in the lore she does mention this when she goes to pour Rab some tea and they are around a sacrafice, like absolutly nothing is wrong with this picture. That my friends is disturbing and if it's not evil I don't know what is frankly.

Regards

Cerulia

12-06-2004, 06:27 PM

Just a minor correction...

Housing Barriers - The Covenant Stones which produce the barrier were made by Nuhmudira killing Zharalims. Though these Zharalims were supposedly criminals back on Ispar I still feel this doesn't give Nuhmudira the self proclaimed right to act as judge and juror.

Actually the covenant stones were created before Nuhmudira started using blood magic - They were made using Empyrean Geomancy ^_^

I personally think, at the core, Nuhmudira desperately wants to be seen as a hero by the Isparian people. She wants (Or at least, wanted) to do what was best for us, but she has no moral sense at all. She'll do anything to serve her opinion of the greater good... And quite often that extends to real evil.

I'd really love to know what her current mental state is. Until she popped up for the soul stones I had guessed she was probably pretty insane, driven mad by the contact with the olthoi hive mind. In the Reawakening stories (The last we heard of her till her resurfacing) she certainly seemed a bit unhinged...

But now in the new cathedral she seems perfectly normal, if a little mad about the whole 'Damning to eternal torment' thing some people did...

Oh well, we'll just have to wait and see. I somehow doubt she'll become just another NPC in a quest...

NecX

12-06-2004, 07:55 PM

2. Who knows when she decides to turn them on and trap all the owners inside ^_^

That depends on when she runs out of other people for sacrifices :eek:

Scenario

12-06-2004, 08:30 PM

I'd really love to know what her current mental state is. Until she popped up for the soul stones I had guessed she was probably pretty insane, driven mad by the contact with the olthoi hive mind. In the Reawakening stories (The last we heard of her till her resurfacing) she certainly seemed a bit unhinged...

But now in the new cathedral she seems perfectly normal, if a little mad about the whole 'Damning to eternal torment' thing some people did...

Well.. she has had quite a few months to work out of the state she found herself in at the end of the Olthoi arc.

Protes

12-06-2004, 10:53 PM

Cerulia,

It was my understanding the book Nuhmudira has been using to learn Falatacot blood magics (The Book of Blood) is the same book which she learned Geomancy from. I thought in order to make a Covenant Stone she had to sacrifice a life. That's what I remember from the teasers and lore about her.

Nexus-HG

12-07-2004, 12:50 AM

I believe there are 14 schools of magic that the Empryeans talk about.

how many portals at Knorr are them (collegiums)? I think i counted 12.

Gaerlan mentions a school in one booK (Book of the Elements?) about Demiurgy (spelling?), the magic of Golem making.

That is one that I would like to see personally.

That would leave one school? I also think 4 portals at Knorr were destroyed. Did we ever figure out what those were?

Also the Book of Eibuil (god i can't spell these tonight :( ) which I think can be found on AC2... Was that ever found on AC1 and where? There was another Falatacot text with some long name... Did we ever find that one in AC1 yet? Is one of these what Numudira has now?

I'm curious.

Xen

12-07-2004, 01:36 AM

As I stated before on these boards and elsewhere, I firmly believe that Nuhmudira has Isparian interests in her mind. That is not to say betterment of (mostly) ungrateful people is her soly or even most purpose, but I do think it is pretty high up on her list.

She recognizes the fact that return of Empyreans is unlikely to bring peace and prosperity and works hard to narrow technomagical gap between their civilisation and ours. Think about it. Empyreans return with the knowledge of all those schools of magic that Harlune keeps talking about, with ability to actually control all those golems.. To them Isprains will be nothing but a bunch of savages or at best "pets," curiosities. All that Nuhmudira is trying to do is to make sure we at least partially prepared for when they comeback (in AC2 apprently, mistake to make them player race imho <shrug>)

Now of course there will be mistakes, costly mistakes but this is a price one has to pay for research. How many ill people were actually killed by early "doctors?" so today we can have benefits of medecine.

What is the alternative? Conservative "let's not meddle in things" approach? That just leads to staggnation and extinction. If a few sacrificies need to be made than so be it.
Nuhmudira is a doer, she is and was always proactive as opposed to that good "queen" Elysa who basically waits for something to happened while frolicing with her new boy toy.. Antius. That's another thing Nuhmi actually sacrificed her personal life in her persuit of knowledge, obviously don't see good "queen" Elysa doing that.

As of who made her judge and juror.. well who didn't? Is there a due process in Ispar?
I don't see those "Royal" guards acting as a police and hunting down criminals, heck even after location of bandit hideout was discovered, I didn't see them move in there and clean out the place, no of course not. Who exactly good "queen" Elysa is recruiting into her personal guard? Antius himself said he can only trust 3 of them. But than again she does have all those wonderful security gadgets and personal golems that Asheron gave her.

Speaking of golems, we've seen a huge armies of them couple of months ago, where did they came from, and more importantly who was controlling them? The best theory I heard (from my gf) was that it was Asheron testing his golem army. Which makes sense, who else would be using golems but an empyrean especially the rare types that we haven't seen too many of ... Asheron who from what we know is spending his time feeding snacks and giving bath to burun whose brother we, Isparians, killed recently.. Hmm no there is nothing strange about that, nothing at all.
Why are we suppose to be trusting Asheron exactly?

MaddyFF

12-07-2004, 04:31 AM

As I stated before on these boards and elsewhere, I firmly believe that Nuhmudira has Isparian interests in her mind.

She may at that, but she is also arrogant, ssees no wrong as long as her goals are obtained, and will turn on anyone that doesn't agree with her.

TheKnight

12-07-2004, 06:06 AM

Indeed Maddy so very true.

Xen Asheron saves Dereth when AC1 comes to an end, by building deep underground towns for us to live in while the end of Dereth happens. He even sacrafices his own life to save all of us in the end. This is how AC2 starts off.

Now we all know this is many generations into the future, but the fact that he saves us, and continues to help us out when trouble comes looking for us should say something about his charecter. Some people belive in the "Asheron Conspiricy" how he is the one controlling it all, but it's simply not true. I mean it IS called Asheron's Call, not Asheron's Real Motive.

Out of all the major players in AC, he has helped us more then any other. He fought BZ, The Shadows, Virindi, Martine, The Ancient Olthoi Queen on her own homeworld and survived, Gearlean, and many others. He's provided us weapons/magic and many other things.

What has Nuhmudira done in comparison? She never build the houses only errected house barriers. She made the Statues, which in turn attacked us and tried to kill us all. She killed the essences to redirect the flow of mana, which still to this day has had serious effects on Dereth. (Harbringer anyone?)
The Harbringer in particular could not form a body pre-essence destruction because I belive the essences where like guardian to the mana flow of the world, and when these got destoryed thanks to Nuhmidira, the floodgates opend and the Harbinger could access the entire planets mana and form physical form.

Nuhmudira is not on our side, she is on her own side. She does not even hesitate about sacrafices now, and as long as she has her way to her the ends always justify the means. If you take a look at how you get flagged in the Gelitite Libary you get either marked as "Friend of the Arcanum" or as "Merciless". Notice the quotes around both of these. I strongly belive that the blackmire armor is for the people who saved her and the new noble armor is for the people that damned her,if you look at it from a pure lore perspective.

Blackmire armor is made by the Falacot and Nuhmidira's trade is Blood Magic created by them.

Noble Armor is the Armor you get from the Guards of the Queen, who do not like Nuhmudira or her cursed Blood Magic practices, as they feel human sacrafice is wrong.

And to say Queen Elyasa has done nothing for us is bull. She was the one that killed the Young Olthoi Queen, she was the one that found Asheron with Thorsten and in the battle with the Olthoi lost her only true love. She has given us many rewards for tasks, like Elyasa's Favor etc. She has always defended Dereth, regardless of how strong the attackers where. And she did it without sacraficing any humans in the process to Blood Magic. She did it the old fashioned way with hard work and determination. The same can not be said of Nuhmudira.

And while not everyone holds Elyasa as High Queen, she has never betrayed us or plotted the schemes that Nuhmudira has. She has never killed innocents for her own selfish needs. She listens to Asheron and some people have a problem with that. If I where in her shoes I would do the same thing, as Asheron is ancient, well over 1000 years old and you don't think someone of that age would have a great deal of knowledge amassed over the decades?

I find it strange that not a single person finds it odd the Nuhmidira is in an ancient crypt of mass knowledge and power (for the soulstone quest) requesting you to bring her ashes/organs/corpses of the entombed within. She is desicrating those tombs and the dead by doing such things. How is this not evil I ask? There's an old saying for people that mess around with dead bodies, for power. They are called Necromancers, however even Necromancers know to respect the dead and not cross the line by raiding tombs. Nuhmudira obviously has no regard for anything but her own goals, and is why she is so dangerous, regardless of how she views herself to us in Dereth.

Scenario thanks for stopping in and answering Cerulia's question. I have one for you if you don't mind. Nuhmudira is Milantean and her homeworld is different from Ispar. Now my question to you is, if Asheron's Portals did indeed hit multiple homeworlds of different races, why have we not seen other Milantean people on Dereth? I find it odd that only Nuhmudira would come from her old homeworld and nobody else. Did she seal off the portal when she came through perhaps? Any info on this would be appriciated.
And keep up the excellent work, you make some amazingly detailed items and I'm glad your with the AC team.

Regards

NecX

12-07-2004, 07:40 AM

Out of all the major players in AC, he has helped us more then any other. He fought BZ, The Shadows, Virindi, Martine, The Ancient Olthoi Queen on her own homeworld and survived, Gearlean, and many others. He's provided us weapons/magic and many other things.

Well when Asheron fought the Ancient Olthoi Queen on her own homeworld, that kinda came back to bite him in the backside when she went on a rampage here on Dereth. And while she was threatening everyone with the destruction of this world as we know it, where was Asheron to help us then?

When Martine, not Asheron, brought down Gaerlan's Citiadel for us to attack him what exactly was Asheron doing again? Seems to me like Martine saved our butts that time, not Asheron.
And just before we could strike Gaerlan down with a deathblow, who comes along to save him... Nuhmudira. Sure she "trapped him for all eternity" but why? Is this some kind of grand sacrifice that keeps on giving, even after the first death? Just another point to show Nuhmudira is out for herself.

And where has Asheron been during the Burun invasion, instead of helping us, he's pampering a burun that was sent here to destroy him while we fight off an invasion of the most powerful burun... with weapons designed by Nuhmudira...
What exactly is the Soul Stone doing again? We kill burun, with a burun slayer weapon designed by someone who's power is based on sacrificing, and how many burun have you killed this week alone? I lost count after a few thousand of those evil nasty critters myself.

Admon Faye

12-07-2004, 09:36 AM

Fascinating discussions

She gave us statues, but those same statues attacked us and tried to wipe us out of existence. She even said she was going to use them to protect this land from an Emperyan invasion, but instead they turned on us and we had to destory them to stay alive. She never did aplogies for this, and acted like she had nothing to do with it.

As I have surmised from the lore, she actually worked with Gaerlan to create the statues. Bear in mind there was a period of time that Gaerlan concealed who he was and so was trying to destroy Martine and Nuhmudira since they both possessed the power to truly stand up to him. Therefore, Gaerlan used her to create the statues, to wit he altered them to attack us.

Scenario thanks for stopping in and answering Cerulia's question. I have one for you if you don't mind. Nuhmudira is Milantean and her homeworld is different from Ispar. Now my question to you is, if Asheron's Portals did indeed hit multiple homeworlds of different races, why have we not seen other Milantean people on Dereth? I find it odd that only Nuhmudira would come from her old homeworld and nobody else. Did she seal off the portal when she came through perhaps? Any info on this would be appriciated.
And keep up the excellent work, you make some amazingly detailed items and I'm glad your with the AC team.

My understanding of the lore is that the Milantean are a sub-culture of the Gharun'dim race. They were a more tribal lot that also practiced sacrifices and were (or still are) quite violent. She made reference when reading the Book of Blood how far more bloody and malicious the rites were that what she knew from her home. That may also provide a little insight into her mindset and to why sacrifices do not hold the ahborration with her as it does with most of us.

Of course, this is all just speculation on my part. :D

Scenario

12-07-2004, 11:43 AM

Scenario thanks for stopping in and answering Cerulia's question. I have one for you if you don't mind. Nuhmudira is Milantean and her homeworld is different from Ispar. Now my question to you is, if Asheron's Portals did indeed hit multiple homeworlds of different races, why have we not seen other Milantean people on Dereth? I find it odd that only Nuhmudira would come from her old homeworld and nobody else. Did she seal off the portal when she came through perhaps? Any info on this would be appriciated.
And keep up the excellent work, you make some amazingly detailed items and I'm glad your with the AC team.

The portals that brought the Isparians to Ispar were for the most part contained to Aluvian, Gharun'dim and Sho lands. As lore from the Expansion Pack reveals, Viamontians may have also had portals appearing in their lands as well (or they simply took over lands with portals).

With that in mind, it stands to reason that the majority of the Isparians on Dereth would fall within the above three (four as of the XP launch) heritage groups.

As evidenced by Nuhmudira, some of the less known Heritage groups have come to Dereth, but who they are has not been established or revealed. For all we know, some Milanteans may walk among us!

Alok

12-07-2004, 02:26 PM

What exactly is the Soul Stone doing again? We kill burun, with a burun slayer weapon designed by someone who's power is based on sacrificing, and how many burun have you killed this week alone? I lost count after a few thousand of those evil nasty critters myself.

Never forget that hypocricy has become the mental black plague of humanity.

MaddyFF

12-07-2004, 03:20 PM

Well when Asheron fought the Ancient Olthoi Queen on her own homeworld, that kinda came back to bite him in the backside when she went on a rampage here on Dereth. And while she was threatening everyone with the destruction of this world as we know it, where was Asheron to help us then?

Wellw e know what happened there according to the lore..

Myself, I wouldn't trust Nuhmudira.

TheKnight

12-07-2004, 05:08 PM

Very interesting Scenario, very interesting indeed.

I always suspected that there where more Milantean peope around, but could never pinpoint exactally who for sure. I'll make sure and keep my eyes and ears open for this.

As for Asheron, at least he's not killing people outright to become more powerful. The people Nuhmudira kills don't come back at the lifestone, where we do. True we supply the Emperyans in portal space with energy to survive, but it sure beats dying totally and never coming back to life, that's for sure.

I think Nuhmudira will become what the lore refers to as the eyes of all worlds, and will sometime eventually pay for her past sins. She is not exempt from this just because she supposedly helped us out in the past, as we all know she helped us when it suited her needs, and hers alone. Not because she is a caring person. Antius is right to distrust her, and he is not alone in this way of thinking. I for one would stand by him if it came down to an Antius vs Nuhmudira battle.

Scenario keep up the excellent work my friend, and I can't wait to see what you have in store for us in the expansion. I'm sure it will be amazing. By the way you make some amazingly detailed items in AC, how long have you been doing art design for?

Regards

Eddie the Crazy

12-08-2004, 04:14 AM

TheKnight

12-08-2004, 02:20 PM

Just did the Soulstone quest yesterday with my friend, and something is just not right with that quest, lore wise.

First Nuhmudira is in an Ancient Empyrean Tomb, but she HATES Empyreans. Second she is not able to procede inside (gee I wonder why) but instead makes us go do her dirty work for her. Does anyone else see what she is having us do a problem? I mean we are robbing tombs now for goodness sake, graves that are supposed to be left alone.

The more I deal with her the less and less I can stand her. And to make it even worse I damned her, but did not do harbinger and for whatever reason she still likes me. *sigh* So I received her spells instead of from the Guards. Man turbine you got me again, making me deal with someone who I know is evil. Bah, Bah I say ;-\

I really hope Antius gets her for all of her sins, and I'm kinda surprised Asheron is not stepping in and slapping her around for defilling an Empyrean Tomb.

Reagrds

NecX

12-08-2004, 02:34 PM

and I'm kinda surprised Asheron is not stepping in and slapping her around for defilling an Empyrean Tomb.

Because she would kick his butt.
He can't change her mind like he did with Martine or the little burun guy he's now pampering in Knorr... both of them wanted to kill him and he convinced them otherwise using his mind tricks, Nuhmudira's not that easy to manipulate.
Plus after mind melding (or whatever you wanna call it) with the Ancient Olthoi Queen, who wants nothing but revenge on Asheron, who's to say how much that reinforced Nuhmudira's hatred for him...

TheKnight

12-08-2004, 02:47 PM

I don't know about mind tricks NecX, Asheron just talked to them and that was it. He always tried to talk to Martine in a calm manner and Martine never said he felt like Asheron was trying to probe/trick his mind.

As for Nuhmudira, when she did her little physic mind meld with the Ancient Queen, she went quite insane there for abit. And then we heard some evil laughter after that happend. All I know is that is not a good sign at all.
And speaking of the Ancient Queen, I just re-read some of the lore from then and Numudira had nothing to do with the posion, since we got that from the Undead's. Of course unless Nuhmudira was already an undead at that time, which the lore does point to after she sacraficed Ibn Ral.

I for one hope she gets what's coming to her. And what's the deal with Nuhmudira calling everyone "child"? lol Scenario care to elaborate? Is this some subliminal message you devs put in to make us send you chocolate cakes or something? :rolleyes:

Regards

P.S I wonder if you guys would do that for a quest, "you will send us cake" "you will send us cake" "you can not resist" "give in to turbine" Uggghhh..*drool* obey turbine...turbine is happiness...all hail turbine... ;)

Cerulia

12-08-2004, 02:51 PM

Wow, I need to check here more often, when a discussion gets going it moves fast! ^_~

First, thanks for the answer Scenario! I guess I'm just still a bit wary of how that might have affected her, since she seemed to recover so quickly, but then she is very powerful I suppose..

Cerulia, It was my understanding the book Nuhmudira has been using to learn Falatacot blood magics (The Book of Blood) is the same book which she learned Geomancy from. I thought in order to make a Covenant Stone she had to sacrifice a life. That's what I remember from the teasers and lore about her.
In this teaser (http://ac.warcry.com/lore/texts/index.php?action=display&id=355) it says:

"The Book showed her the way. It was hard to remember when it was just a book, one of many Empyrean tomes that she had sought and collected in her time on Dereth. She was proud of what she had accomplished by her research on the enemy. Let Celdiseth voice his scorn and distrust all he may, but without her and the Geomantic arts she had mastered, there would be no housing, no Covenant Crystals. But Geomancy had never absorbed her the way the Book had."

From that it sounds like Geomancy is totally seperate from the Book of Blood, and since Geomancy is one of the Yalaini schools of magic I'm pretty sure it's seperate from blood magic ^_^

I find it strange that not a single person finds it odd the Nuhmidira is in an ancient crypt of mass knowledge and power (for the soulstone quest) requesting you to bring her ashes/organs/corpses of the entombed within.
Actually that's something I did find very worrying... Xi Ru's chapel seems to be a temple of the 'Good' falatacot, the sisters of light who created the moarsmen and who would eventually become (Or inspire at least) the Adjanites... The fact that Nuhmudira is taking texts from there could be explained by her wanting to learn more of Falatacot magic, but taking the remains too...? Worrying.

Nooo, Asheron bashing! I can't help it, I really like both Asheron and Elysa, so I must defend his honour ^_~

Well when Asheron fought the Ancient Olthoi Queen on her own homeworld, that kinda came back to bite him in the backside when she went on a rampage here on Dereth.
Yes, after Gaerlan tried to kill Asheron and let the Olthoi in by accident...
And while she was threatening everyone with the destruction of this world as we know it, where was Asheron to help us then?
He was trapped in his tower by the Olthoi's magic dampening field - He couldn't use magic to portal out and the conveyances weren't working either.
When Martine, not Asheron, brought down Gaerlan's Citiadel for us to attack him what exactly was Asheron doing again?
He was still recovering from Martine's attack that brought him to the brink of death.
And where has Asheron been during the Burun invasion, instead of helping us, he's pampering a burun that was sent here to destroy him while we fight off an invasion of the most powerful burun... with weapons designed by Nuhmudira...
Weapons designed by the counsel and the arcanum, and enhanced by Nuhmudira ^_~

And Asheron was specifically asked by Elysa not to help us anymore... Though I personally think that having Torgluuk on our side could be very helpful!

True we supply the Emperyans in portal space with energy to survive, but it sure beats dying totally and never coming back to life, that's for sure.

Now there is a point... We all know now that vitae is a small portion of our life force drained off by the lifestones to keep the Empyreans alive...

... So why do we get Vitae from the lifestones created by Nuhmudira? Where's THAT life force going?

Protes

12-08-2004, 07:18 PM

Hmm.. I guess I missed that detail, Cerulia. Thanks for clearing it up. I had thought Nuhmudira was killing Zharalims for the construction of Covenant Crystals and assumed it the form of Geomancy she was using was learned through The Book of Blood. Maybe those events and text I read were meant for the Bronze Statues.

Cerulia

12-08-2004, 07:42 PM

Yah, pretty sure the statues were her first real work of blood magic (After making herself younger). I'm sorry I went on about it so much though, it's a really minor point, I don't know why I made such a big deal about it... Very sorry, I didn't mean to be obnoxious ^_^

NecX

12-08-2004, 11:49 PM

hehe... yeah, the Noble weapons were enhanced to be Burun Slayer weapons

Only problem is that they were "enhanced" by Nuhmudira, gathering more power for her and her evil deeds

But back to Asheron bashing ;)
If Asheron were so wise and powerful, wouldn't he know we need help regardless of what Elysia says? :confused:
After all, aren't we the batteries for the lifesupport keeping his people alive, if we die they die? Or somethign like that...
Either way, He ought to be looking out for us and helping us be strong enough to defeat any threat on this world, because the Olthoi Queen is still out there waiting for her next chance to strike at him... and with a posioned food supply, I bet she's hungry...

And since I'm bashing Asheron, I can't leave Elysia out of it ;)
For the queen of our people, she makes some rather poor choices...

It's like let's not go to Asheron, our living man-god, but to the Nuhmudira, the brains behind the attempted queen assassination instead...
And while we're at it, let's make her even more powerful by stealing powerful ancient relics for her because she can make the gimpy Noble weapons stronger... which now goes back to Nuhmudira getting stronger from sacrifices... and, thanks to Elysia's enlightened decision, we're sacrificing Burun to add to Nuhmudira's power. Maybe next time Elysia won't wake up and we can have a stronger leader like Antius... I bet he woulda put out a bounty of like a billion xp on Nuhmudira's hide if she tried to kill him if he were King.

It's all a circle of poor decisions by our "leaders"...

If Martine were still around, he woulda blown something up and taken out a lot of bad guys with it... like the second Blackmire temple and ended all of this...
Yes Second... maybe third, we've seen how he can get "mixed up" at times...
But if someone like Nuhmudira or Oswald tried to kill him, they would have paid and suffered, not helped to become stronger for the next time they try to kill him...
He wouldn't have said "Hey, I know you! You tried to kill me... Here, take this... it hurts more and just might kill me next time" :p

Scenario

12-09-2004, 12:20 AM

I for one hope she gets what's coming to her. And what's the deal with Nuhmudira calling everyone "child"? lol Scenario care to elaborate? Is this some subliminal message you devs put in to make us send you chocolate cakes or something? :rolleyes:

I read that as Nuhmudira talking down to people who she clearly believes she is superior to, whether or not that may be the case. I've always thought she was up to no good, so that could just be my ire towards her coming through in the interpretation :)

Rhesus

12-09-2004, 02:40 AM

Nuhumudira's treatment of her fellow Isparians has always reminded me of the condescension that the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine character Khai Winn always used when she addressed people.

Cerulia

12-09-2004, 04:42 AM

lol NecX, I like the way you put it. I'm gonna argue, but I like it anyway ^_~

If Asheron were so wise and powerful, wouldn't he know we need help regardless of what Elysia says?

Well, he might know we were in a bad spot... In fact, he almost certainly DID know since when he saw Torgluuk he didn't seem at all surprised. But if he is really wise then he could see the wisdom in Elysa's decision...

We'd come to rely on him a bit, or at least she had, and that fact was highlighted when he was trapped away from us during the Olthoi invasion. She realised that we need to learn to stand on our own feet, because who knows when else we would rely on his help and he wouldn't be able to give it.

He's standing off like a parent who knows the child needs to start to learn things for themselves... I have a feeling he's still keeping an eye out for us though and he'll probably step in if we're really in trouble. Those toads weren't THAT big a threat considering what we've dealt with before ^_~

And while we're at it, let's make her even more powerful by stealing powerful ancient relics for her because she can make the gimpy Noble weapons stronger...

Antius never actually told us to do that... He just said 'Hey, go ask Nummy for a burun slayer!'. If anyone was dumb it was us for blindly following her instructions and defiling a tomb for her... But then, lets be honest, if she hadn't been there we'd have STILL broken in and smashed stuff. It's what we do ^_~

I think, regarding Elysa's decision to not punish Nuhmudira, that Asheron and Antius, and indeed all the queen's friends, are on your side there... They'd REALLY like to kill her for it.

The fact that they aren't allowed to is another point in favour of Elysa as a good ruler... There was no proof that it was Nuhmudira. Everyone may know it was, but without proof any punishment would be unjust. Elysa has to set an example, even if it means leaving a powerful person who wants her dead untouched.

That right there might be one of the best reasons why Elysa IS a good ruler ^_^

MaddyFF

12-09-2004, 06:24 AM

I read that as Nuhmudira talking down to people who she clearly believes she is superior to...

Which means everyone :p

Nuhmudira will do what she thinks is best, since she is so superior to us other Isparians. Right now she thinks it is best to help us. I'm sure there will come a day where she thinks "You know, the world would be a better place without Aluvians around." This will probably happen right after she decides she should be grand ruler over all the land, us being such children.

MaddyFF

12-09-2004, 06:41 AM

Antius never actually told us to do that... He just said 'Hey, go ask Nummy for a burun slayer!'. If anyone was dumb it was us for blindly following her instructions and defiling a tomb for her... But then, lets be honest, if she hadn't been there we'd have STILL broken in and smashed stuff. It's what we do ^_~

As soon as my mage gets through that third salvaging dungeon, she is going back to Nuhmudira and taunting her with the items. Probably spit on her too, but she won't turn them over to her.

Rage_Lao

12-09-2004, 07:40 AM

I read that as Nuhmudira talking down to people who she clearly believes she is superior to, whether or not that may be the case. I've always thought she was up to no good, so that could just be my ire towards her coming through in the interpretation :)

I fear Nuhmudira is no longer Human, most likely undead now. As of the moment she is just helping us to buy some time before the real **** hits the fan.

TheKnight

12-09-2004, 04:33 PM

Thanks Scenario for the comments, and yea I also have never trusted her. Way back when I first did the Gelitite Libary quest back when it was first availble (pre-knowledge of Gaerlan) I read all the information in the lore, the book and her supposed plea's in the jail chamber. I decided back then as I still do with my main re-roll that I'd always damn her, and it was never because of the +30 health bloodstone jewel.

Something i've always wondered scenario is what exactally happend with Jaleh al-Thani? (weeping weapons quest) In the lore the only thing I can find is Oswald saying he broke the code of the theifs rules and deserved to die, but what those rules are exactally is not explained. Nuhmudira also says that he (Jaleh) would be a perferct sacrafice, since he is the "self appointed mayor" of Ayan.

Now I do know he was a noble of some sort, but i'm really curious on the backstory to this as how he became the mayor, and what exactally did he do to break the rules that was so bad that Oswald wanted to see him dead? Any information on this would be much appriciated Scenario, thanks.

Regards

NecX

12-09-2004, 05:47 PM

But then, lets be honest, if she hadn't been there we'd have STILL broken in and smashed stuff. It's what we do ^_~

LMAO! :) Smashing stuff is a good thing!

But instead of KEEPING the relics for ourselves for some other use, like learning bloodmagic to fight Nuhmudira back with, we give her the relics so she gets stronger... Sometimes ya gotta fight fire with fire and we're just giving the fire more fuel to burn.

As soon as my mage gets through that third salvaging dungeon, she is going back to Nuhmudira and taunting her with the items. Probably spit on her too, but she won't turn them over to her.

After FINALLY making it through those 3 dungons I laughed in her face after getting the items for myself, but she made me pay for that... She beat me up and took the items away from me anyway *cry* :(

meanbeard

12-09-2004, 06:22 PM

Poor poor Nuhmudira. So misunderstood.

If I were her, I’d certainly be upset at all those people who called me a monster all those years.

Hosagi

12-09-2004, 09:13 PM

What has Nuhmudira done in comparison? She never build the houses only errected house barriers. She made the Statues, which in turn attacked us and tried to kill us all. She killed the essences to redirect the flow of mana, which still to this day has had serious effects on Dereth. (Harbringer anyone?)
The Harbringer in particular could not form a body pre-essence destruction because I belive the essences where like guardian to the mana flow of the world, and when these got destoryed thanks to Nuhmidira, the floodgates opend and the Harbinger could access the entire planets mana and form physical form.

um it was Gaerlan who trapped Nuhmudira it was Gaerlan who killed the essences it was Gaerlan who created the physical form of the Harbinger which he wanted to place in the body of who he called "The Blood Witch" which ultimatly lead to the destruction of Yanshi before you go and start bad mouthing a npc in AC please besure to get your facts strait

TheKnight

12-10-2004, 03:22 AM

Hiya meanbeard welcome to AC1, glad to have you aboard. ;)
But what do ya mean mis-understood? lol She's sacraficed so many people she's lost count. How is that mis-understood at all? She now had us robbing an ancient Emperyean Tomb, how is that mis-understood?

I mean really, everything she's done has been to propel her own selfish needs.
I'd say she is perfectly understood, she does what she wants, when she wants and thinks there are no laws to be obeyed on Dereth, or she is above those laws. I really hope Antius comes down hard on her and takes care of her for us, and if not I know many folks who would love to get a crack at her as a boss monster. :cool:

Hosagi,

Yes Gaerlan did entrap her, and yes he did have a hand in destroying the essences. However it was Nuhmudira who was the catalyst for all those events. She let her arogance of beliving she was superior to us get the best of her, as she could hardly wait for her reward (in her own words) when she was going with Kai to the Gelitite Libary. She found out real fast that she is not superior when Gaerlan reveiled himself and she got pimp slapped around like nothing, and imprisoned in there. For someone supposedly so powerful Gaerlan caught her easily.

And the only reason the harbringer was even able to be made was, again because of Nuhmudira's ego, nothing more. And she has just gotten worse as time goes on. Lying, scheming, hiring Oswald to assasinate the queen, saying she would destroy the Olthoi once and for all and all she did was go insane for months by trying to mentally link with the Ancient Queen. When Asheron himself could not defeat the Olthoi Nuhmudira though she could do so alone, ha I say!

The ancient queen feeds off mana, and the only way to ever destroy them once and for all is going to be with sheer numbers of Melee and Archer troops.
Or maybe sometime down the road the Olthoi will actually help us out and we will work together, who really knows honestly. Maybe Nuhmudira becomes so powerful from her sacraficing and trying to unlock the Falatcot magics that the only thing that will stop her would be the Ancient Olthoi Queen.
I know I'd pay to see that battle, heh. Pay Per View anyone?

But really now, she is just plain evil. And if you still don't belive me here ya go:

-Killed so many people she has lost count of the sheer numbers

-Practices the Ancient Blood Rites Magics the has been outlawed by the
Emperyeans, and by even Nuhmudira's own race.

-Killed Jael the Mayor of Ayan

-Killed Ibn Rab her cloest and most trusted ally and friend in an act of pure betrayal only for power and to restore her youth.

- Did not kill Gaerlan, but instead imprisoned him as an undead. This leaves a window of oppertunity for him to escape sometime in the future, and again to cause untold destruction on the land and people.

- Did not kill the Ancient Olthoi Queen, this leaves the Queen alive and even more ticked off for the future. (which you see in AC2, as the Olthoi come back there with a major vengence)

- Plotted with Oswald to kill the Queen, and now acts like she has no idea how it happend, or who was responsible when she herself orcistrated the entire event.

- Had us grave rob an ancient emperyean tomb, in which the guardians would not allow her into. gee I wonder why? maybe because she wanted to oh I dunno....ROB them of their holy artifacts. And she had us do it for her, so again she could get her way.

Not evil at all eh? You sure about that?

Killing people just to become more powerful is flat out evil. We Isparians defend ourselfs/homes/towns from constant invasion, we are not outright murderers like Nuhmudira is. Where we defend as a last resort, she revels in the power that her sacrafices bring her. There is the difference between us and her. She even admits in the lore that she would never be able to get away with the countless crimes she has done back on her own homeworld. What does that tell you? And her race is pretty barbaric compared to the known races according to the lore. When her own race won't do the things she has done, again what does that tell you?

Regards

Cerulia

12-10-2004, 08:20 AM

Yes, welcome meanbeard!

I actually have to agree with meanbeard here, I think you're misunderstanding nuhmudira a bit... One thing I never saw her as is selfish. In fact, if anything it's the opposite, she thinks of herself as totally selfless, the way she sees it she's sacrificing herself for us. She thinks of herself as a tragic anti-hero, forced to do these terrible things for the greater good.

I'd say she is perfectly understood, she does what she wants, when she wants and thinks there are no laws to be obeyed on Dereth, or she is above those laws.
You're right that she does what she wants (Or rather, what she thinks WE need), regardless of the morals and laws. I don't think she thinks she's above the law though, it's more that she doesn't care about what the consequences are of breaking the laws... I'm not sure if that's the same thing ^_^

She let her arogance of beliving she was superior to us get the best of her, as she could hardly wait for her reward (in her own words) when she was going with Kai to the Gelitite Libary. She found out real fast that she is not superior
That's another thing you're right about, she does tend towards arrogance... To be fair though, she IS superior to all of us, at least in terms of pure power...

And the only reason the harbringer was even able to be made was, again because of Nuhmudira's ego, nothing more.
I don't quite agree with you there. In fact, the only reason the harbinger didn't destroy the world was that Nuhmudira was able to escape with the help of the sclavus... She was originally intended to be the sacrifice for the Harbinger's physical form. When she went missing, that was the beginning of the end for Gaerlan's plans; Up till then everything had been going well.

When he discovered mid-ritual that she was gone though, everything went wrong. He portalled out, and the uncontained mana burst through the ground and destroyed Yanshi. Rather than the powerful form of Nuhmudira, the harbinger had to use a simple jewler as its vessel, which probably explains why we've been able to kill it so much... If it had its full power it would be unstoppable.

saying she would destroy the Olthoi once and for all and all she did was go insane for months by trying to mentally link with the Ancient Queen.
Again, to be fair, Nuhmudira's help might have been the only thing that won that battle for us, under the circumstances. How much of a hand she had in those circumstances is hard to say, but as it was we might not have won without her then... She found the food stores and opened portals so we could poison them... I'm not sure even asheron could've done that, though I'm sure we would've found another way....

When Asheron himself could not defeat the Olthoi Nuhmudira though she could do so alone, ha I say!
She certainly didn't think that, she needed and asked for our help every step of the way... Though I'm sure in her mind she was the only reason we won ^_^

Practices the Ancient Blood Rites Magics the has been outlawed by the Emperyeans
Well, technically so did Lady Adja and even Asheron's mother Lady Maila... He wouldn't be here without Falatacot blood magic. But yes, you're right, the way blood magic is used is pretty key and many of Nuhmudira's sacrifices were unwilling...

Killed Jael the Mayor of Ayan
That was Oswald, working alone... Though Nuhmudira taught him some blood magic, he picked the sacrifice (I think!)

Killed Ibn Rab her cloest and most trusted ally and friend in an act of pure betrayal only for power and to restore her youth.
It was betrayal, but at the same time he was perfectly aware of the poison and drank willingly... She did betray him though, and from her end it didn't matter if he was willing or not, so I guess it's just as evil as if he had been unwilling...

Did not kill Gaerlan, but instead imprisoned him as an undead. This leaves a window of oppertunity for him to escape sometime in the future, and again to cause untold destruction on the land and people.
I'm not sure this is *evil* as much as just poor judgement... She certainly has no intention of him ever getting out, she wasn't trying to save him, just make him suffer far more than simple death.

Did not kill the Ancient Olthoi Queen, this leaves the Queen alive and even more ticked off for the future. (which you see in AC2, as the Olthoi come back there with a major vengence)
That would really be our fault rather than hers... She only weakened the queen, it was our job to actually destroy her. Interesting that she comes back though! I'd heard there were no olthoi in AC2 ^_^

Plotted with Oswald to kill the Queen, and now acts like she has no idea how it happend, or who was responsible when she herself orcistrated the entire event.
Totally agree with this one, she crossed a line there...

Had us grave rob an ancient emperyean tomb, in which the guardians would not allow her into. gee I wonder why? maybe because she wanted to oh I dunno....ROB them of their holy artifacts. And she had us do it for her, so again she could get her way.
And agree with this one too, this seems like a pretty dangerous thing she's done...

I'd also add that she is probably responsible for raising all the Falatacot temples, and thus indirectly responsible for the Burun invasion... I don't think she did it with the intention of harming us, but it's another example of reckless use of her power which put us all in danger

I personally stick to my belief that Nuhmudira is not really evil in her intentions... She wants to help us, to do what's best for the Isparian people. But she's willing to do that at any cost, and ignores the moral side of things... She also tends to be arrogant and reckless, and those traits have put us in danger a few times, though not through her intention. She's not seeking power for power's sake, or at least she wasn't.

I've always thought of the core of Nuhmudira's character as this: She wants to be our hero.

Maybe that's part of why she wanted to get rid of Elysa - Jealousy. Elysa, in the lore at least, is our hero. She defeated the olthoi queen, and was made high queen because of it... And when Nuhmudira defeated the olthoi queen, her only reward was madness and rejection.

That rejection might have changed her intentions of course. She might not want to be our hero anymore. Who knows, maybe she's decided to help the Viamontians instead...

MaddyFF

12-10-2004, 09:29 AM

Poor poor Nuhmudira. So misunderstood.

If I were her, I’d certainly be upset at all those people who called me a monster all those years.

Preception is reality. To me Nuhmidira has only shown that while she may mean for what she thinks is the best, she has no moral compass to guide her onlong that path.

TheKnight

12-10-2004, 03:00 PM

Cerulia I have some comments for you,

Originally posted by Cerulia
Rather than the powerful form of Nuhmudira, the harbinger had to use a simple jewler as its vessel, which probably explains why we've been able to kill it so much... If it had its full power it would be unstoppable.

The truth here is that yes when the Harbinger first took physical form it used that jewler to do so. However after we defeated it the only thing that remained is it's spirit. Even the lore says this, that it's spirit is still restless underneath Yanshi.

Originally posted by Cerulia
She certainly didn't think that, she needed and asked for our help every step of the way... Though I'm sure in her mind she was the only reason we won ^_^

Well she most certainly did not "ask" for our help, more like demand it flat out. She yelled to move quickly and to not waste time when she mind probed the queen and saw the ancient food stores. True she did help us with this, but instead of bringing the Ancient Queen to the surface where we would have the advantage, all she did was tick her off even more. And it's one of the reasons the Olthoi are even in AC2 to begin with. Plus you just can't kill the mother of all Olthoi off, as it provides countless storyline possibilites. It's not good lore to do so as any writter will tell you. ;)

Originally posted by Cerulia Well, technically so did Lady Adja and even Asheron's mother Lady Maila... He wouldn't be here without Falatacot blood magic. But yes, you're right, the way blood magic is used is pretty key and many of Nuhmudira's sacrifices were unwilling...

Lady Adja was the only one who knew Blood Magic of the old Falatacot ways. Lady Maila never knew this magic form, and asked Lady Adja to perform this rite as a last resort to save her son Asheron from destruction at the hands of BZ. Asheron's mother willingly gave up her life so that her son may live on and stop BZ from ending the world. To me there is no act more noble then doing so. The differance here is it was used as a LAST resort, not the first one such as Nuhmudira is always doing.

I think the Falatacot where indeed a very inteligent race, however they also knew that the more they used blood magic for day to day affairs the stronger the book of blood became. They even warn practicers of this ancient art to "Control the book, do not allow it to control you". Nuhmudira frankly allows the book to control her, and instead of truley using this art as a last resort she uses it for her day to day needs. It's blastphymous to the Falatacot ways, and i'm sure if they where still around Nuhmudira would get a severe punishment for her actions.

Overall I think we are on the same page, and can both agree that she is out for herself and herself alone. When her goals happen to agree with ours she will help us, but always with a high price. (like robbing graves) To me Nuhmudira is anything but an anti-hero as she just revels in sacraficing humans for her own ends. An anti-hero is dark sure, but Nuhmudira is downright evil. I don't know of any Anti-Hero that enjoy's killing people frankly, hurting them sure but outright murdering them?

I'm still curious as to what the story with IBN Ral is Scenario, any background info on that or was it purposly left out for possible future storylines?

Regards

Protes

01-22-2005, 10:20 AM

^^ Cerulia,

Hey, remember our discussion about the Convenant Stones. I was reading Nuhmudira's Journal (lore; book) this morning and came across the text that lead me to believe Nuhmudira was using Blood magic's and sacrificing the Marae outlaws in the process of making the Convenant Stones. I knew I read something that made me think she did some rituals in making it. Other things going on with Nuhmudira in teasers back then seemed to support that idea.

All of this, the sacrifices and spells, the blood and power, has been to thwart this Empyrean homecoming.

link - http://www.thejackcat.com/AC/Cultur...s/Nuhmudira.htm

GhettoPhabulas

01-22-2005, 08:26 PM

The strength of blood magic lies in that of the sacrifice. Asheron has lived so long because it was a willing sacrifice. Look at the undead, notice how they are mostly dumb and zombie like? The more powerful ones were the ones who were stronger with blood magic. Geraine is so insanely powerful because as a boy he was transformed into an undead during a blood magic ritual where a bunch of willing sacrifices were made. He retains 100% of his powers if not gained much stronger ones merely from the ritual, as well as his mind is totally there, not decayed like that of the undead we fight today.

Uzi-El

01-22-2005, 09:27 PM

An Undead's mental state has nothing to do with Blood Magic. It's connected to how (or, more accurately, when) they were turned and how well they've managed to maintain themselves over the years. Undead who were turned while still alive almost always retain most of their intellect. The shambling, half-living Undead are usually the result of someone being brought back to life as an Undead (like the volcano victims of Aerlinthe or those resurrected by early faulty Lifestones) or being turned against their will (Wari in the Sylsfear dungeon).

As for Geraine, just how much do we know about how he was turned? Yes, we know the Falatacot witches did something to him to make him Undead, but do we know exactly what was done, let alone whether those used in the ritual were willing? There's also the fact that Geraine isn't a terribly active boy either; it seems like all his exploits (destroying the Disciples of Blood, interfering in the Battle of Kings in AC2) are aberrations, and that most of the time, he's either sleeping or preparing to sleep. Those centuries-long naps could have just as much to do with his power and will as whatever spells and charms were used in his "rebirth".

GhettoPhabulas

01-22-2005, 11:28 PM

He was dieing as a boy and his servants gave their lives to either save him or turn into an undead, I forget which one exactly. I am pretty sure they saved + extended his life, and then as he grew up he spent his years learning all the Blood Magic in the world and systematically killing the falatacots who he leeched the knowledge from so he would be all powerful, then made himself undead. I forget how it actually went though

Uzi-El

01-22-2005, 11:34 PM

Here's the backstory of Geraine, courtesy of the Drudge Citadel Vault:

Winter came earlier that year to Dericost. The halls of the palace sparkled with frost. One day, ships appeared from the east, gliding into the harbor. The women aboard these ships were strange... tall, with eyes of marble-green. They came to the palace, telling of their home -- an island lost to darkness.

The king had a son, Geraine -- a sickly boy who coughed blood. The women offered him relief. If his mind was strong, he could have eternal life. Geraine traveled to the witches' island, and there he learned the truth. To give up death, one must forsake life as well. So Geraine became undead... the Firstborn.

... and from Xi Ru's Cathedral:

Hevk Loz tells you, "Sickly from birth, Geraine IV, was taken by sisters who had stepped aside from the path and brought into a state that would forever sustain his body, soul and mind. Geraine in turn taught his people, but the sisters were not so foolish to not enter this state themselves. Many sleep, while in waking dreams, they think their time nears as a new singer raises her voice. But what of Geraine? His life is over, but still he endures, watches and waits. His death began his life anew."

GhettoPhabulas

01-22-2005, 11:38 PM

Uzi-El

01-22-2005, 11:50 PM

If Nuhmidira really does control the book of blood or whatever its called, and is learning blood magic at such a rate. She could be more powerful than asheron by now, and eventually reach geraine's level of power. Geraine is strong enough to wipe out BZ, Asheron AND the Imperator in AC2, but instead stands in the back and uses treacherous methods to attain his ends and allow them to destroy themselves.
Well, there's having power, and there's being able to control it. Nuhmie may be unbelievably powerful, but can she control all that power? Remember the physical and mental strain the Ritus put her through. And also remember that that Ritus may have had other repercussions that we (or Nuhmie) fully understand.

Protes

01-23-2005, 04:34 AM

Forr a long time now I have suspected Nuhmudira had turned herself undead with the sacrifice of her faithful Zharalim, Yal ibn Rab. Nuhmudira features changed after she sacrificed him.

Homestead
(link - http://ac.warcry.com/lore/texts/index.php?action=display&id=206)

The other woman unfolded herself from her chair. She was old as dust and stone, her hair spider web silver, her hands gnarled as the mage's staff she leaned upon. “You are not welcome.” The intensity of her black eyes nearly drove Asaina back a step.

Betrayal - Teaser
(link - http://ac.warcry.com/lore/texts/index.php?action=display&id=358)

“The library lies within, Master.” He turned and entered.

Nuhmudira pulled her robes more tightly about her. Ibn Rabs blood still strengthened her body, but the chill was enough to make the strongest of people shiver.

Gaerlan's Research Notes
(link - http://ac.warcry.com/lore/texts/index.php?action=display&id=400)

As I raise my hand and wipe her spell away, she begins to utter phrases in the Falatacot tongue. She crackles with energy, and I see that she has found a way to circumvent her body's frailty and command these spells. I interrupt her casting with an invisible barrier conjured from my mind. She flies from her chair and lands in a crumpled heap.

As I study her, I notice her hair is red. This is a surprise, for I had expected to see the white that Kai had described.

GhettoPhabulas

01-23-2005, 10:50 AM

"I see that she has found a way to circumvent her body's frailty and command these spells."

This only shows that she is in more control than one would think. Of course Geraine is undecaying, unwithering, so his power is absolute, but Nuhmidira, if she could hold even a fraction of his power, would probably be more than a match for anything thrown at us now.

Renegade Knight

01-23-2005, 03:26 PM

For one, I don't think Geraine is powerful enough to destroy Bael'Zharon, Asheron, yeah he could, and the Virindi Imperator, we don't even know what he's capable of. Geraine I'd say is powerful, yet Bael'Zharon was created from the Kemeroi, a being the Old Ones rivaled in power, meaning despite Geraine's strength, he isn't exactly the strongest.

Protes

01-23-2005, 03:59 PM

Yeah, but how powerful has Nuhmudira become or can get? The Ritus changed her. I also just realized Nuhmudira has a similiar obsession with another ancient Falatacot book, Living Tome, like she does with The Book of Blood (I spelled it wrong before, heh). I suppose either something from within the Falatacot magics is drawing her in and/or Nuhmudira naturally becomes obsessed with learning any powerful arcane magics.

Reawakening, Part Five
(link - http://ac.turbinegames.com/index.php?page_id=147)

Every time she closed her eyes the carrion wail of the afterlife called to her. Something went horrifically wrong and nearly damned her. She had dismissed her apprentices, began to draft a charm that would drive the memories away, and found nearly a month missing from her life. But the month that had slipped through her fingers was the month she had studied the book, the time she had studied to remedy the ill feelings and tastes of hollow succor. She was still aware of the flavor of blood and the pungent smells that accompany one’s demise.

She had waited a week before returning to the book. During that time she found herself crying or staring into the darkness with fear coating her heart. She found that light stung her eyes, she was cold, and even hot chocolate failed to warm her bones. Her appetite waned, and she became consumed with thoughts of dying.

She tried writing, but her tears stained the pages and smudged the ink. She tried singing but the chorus that joined her voice was dissident and fractured. She tried speaking but a shrill voice not her own strained across her vocal chords and pierced the air around her. Nothing helped. The books held the answers.

Nuhmudira drew a blanket over her shoulders and lit a single candle. The flame flickered and cast menacing shadows over her room. The wind caused the flame to wildly dance from side to side. She opened the book and failed to recognize the figure clad in white, sitting serenely across the room in a chair two sizes too small for him.

He watched as she read. A long, withered index finger slid along the ancient pages of the living tome. She lived still--remarkable. Others who had attempted what she had were reduced to incoherent states, babbling on or chittering in voices akin to the Olthoi. The madness deterred the wise members of Kellin’s council, but there were many who were arrogant enough to believe they could sedate the Queen and reclaim the glory of the Cerulean Throne. Of course, he had not attempted such mania. He researched, studied and devised a way to trap one of her children, not fully grown or developed. The plan had worked well, but the link between the Olthoi was greater than he could have imagined. Their captive was consumed from within its own mind. The experiment was a failure.

Nuhmudira was consumed now, he could see it in the tentative way she approached the pages. Her hands trembled as she struggled to write notes onto a parchment she kept beside the book. She refused to mutter the words she was translating, and the room was silent. The sound of her breathing was nearly imperceptible. He drew his hand through his long beard and cleared his throat.

Nuhmudira leapt from her seat and instinctively called to the arcane forces about her. A cacophony of sound assaulted her ears as millions of voices, none her own, forced the words from her throat, but they were well formed and a wave of orange light spread from her hand, grew into a spear of crackling dark red energy, and launched itself at the old mage.

Asheron stared in amazement as she called higher magic into being. He reacted quickly and placed a shield of his own arcane knowledge to contain the energy she levied. Her intonation had been perfect but her eyes belied the truth, she heard something different than he. She collapsed to a knee and began to breathe heavily.

* * *