Paraduck
01-31-2004, 03:11 AM
Okay, this log is a couple weeks old (finally getting around to it, heh), but it should be mostly current. Of course, this is just our opinions. :)
And a side note: I'm also surprised that more people aren't taking advantage of major wards on non-GSx armor. It really helps, and tinkered armor reduces the melee damage taken in GSx. (I recently experienced this for myself.)
--rahul--: The only major issue with PvP at the moment is the lag.. which I suspect is getting created by gear
--rahul--: other than that.. *shrug*
other than archers against mages with missile.. we're pretty well balanced
Paraduck: the animation breaks are also a major issue
--rahul--: Why?
--rahul--: without them fights would never end..
Paraduck: Jump spin: It renders melees uselss and is practically a sure way to get away, especially with the bug affecting it that makes you able to not lose stam while jumping.
Chain Elixering: Practically invincibility. Drinking THE's as fast as you can pound a hotkey... well, I think the problem there is obvious.
Hold/Circle/Delay casting: Wouldn't be a problem if melees could break off attacks as easily as mages can with spells.
--rahul--: without jump spin, mages would never survive a gank..
a mage portals in.. 4 melee's get on him, he's dead..
A melee portals in, 4 mages war him but can never land if he keeps running
--rahul--: Chain elixiring: That was another I wanted to add to my list
--rahul--: Casting: Melee's can break off attacks on the dot.. I've seen a LOT of melee's do it. With me even in fights
Paraduck: In a closed area (like MP) that's not quite true. The melee will eventualyl be dead if the mages aren't stupid.
Not really, not when you're charging in or winding up the attack bar. You can jump, but that's not very effective.
--rahul--: In a closed area.. with a mage, it doesn't matter, where..
A mage needs to be able to have a way to break from melee's
--rahul--: and I have never really played a melee very much (except the occasional slaughtering an unbaned mage)..
but Gohan does it.. *shrug*
--rahul--: If he can do it, it can be done
Paraduck: Jumpspin works in closed areas too, I see it being done
--rahul--: Right, it does.. which is why it needs to stay.
--rahul--: Unless you can make a way for mages to be able to stick to a melee and not let an attack break.. you cannot let melee's have that
Paraduck: That's a melee's advantage over archers and mages.
Paraduck: and an aegis because melees can only attack in close quarters. Spells do a considerable amount howver, but I don't think that's broken in any way.
--rahul--: What is a mage's advantage? With gohan, I remember firing of and landing 5 wars on him in a row.. and he still didn't die
--rahul--: it takes 4 spells to kill a melee.. and without any kind of special casting.. its possible for a melee to time his attacks so he skips every single war fired at him
--rahul--: with paraduck you can survive 5 wars
Paraduck: Mage's? Most damage of all the classes and ability to do EVERYTHING from spellcasting mode. You don't NEED to use a healing skill.. you have drain and stam to health
Paraduck: And you don't need to change a weapon or go out of combat to do it
--rahul--: Drain gives back almost nothing.. healing is faster.. stamina gets depleted.. kits don't
--rahul--: yeah but any mage worth his salt usually uses a config that limits him to two at most three damage types before he needs to switch configs
Paraduck: But you have revit =P And drains can make a big difference when used properly. What does damage type have to do with this?
--rahul--: Dude.. *5* wars.. and to land them when a melee actually has to withdraw his attack only for maybe 1-2 seconds of the whole casting sequence?
Paraduck: In a sense, it's an infinite kit, as long as you have comps
--rahul--: nope.. revit gives you back 100 stam
--rahul--: during the time 1 revit gets cast.. a melee can do 100-200 points of damage..
--rahul--: assuming you are sword and have major str + maxed str
Paraduck: And you can stam to health it back and revit again.. and you're still gaining stamina.
--rahul--: umm.. okay.. lets check the maths here..
mage with 400hp
casts revit - gets hit for 150 pts
two options now,
-> casts stam->hp 1, gets back 50 hp, dies before the second revit casts
-> casts stam->hp 7, gets back to full hp.. but during that spell the melee, if he crits a few times will kill him before the spell casts
--rahul--: assuming the mage is taking the full time a 7 is supposed to take.. and not fast casting
Paraduck: I wish we could hit for 150 on any decently prepared person
Paraduck: Especially considering you don't lose anything in PKL so you can use your 40k AL 420 base plate =P
--rahul--: dude.. I've had a melee crit me for *320* through AL 340 armor FULLY baned and with the undergarments fully baned too
--rahul--: and wait.. that wasn't even a crit.. from what I remember.. it was a high hit
--rahul--: al 340 base armor.. I checked like three times.. I was like wtf?
Paraduck: And crits aren't really all that common... and I've been in many many fights where it won't end unless I get two crits in a row (which is extremely rare), or I somehow fail a heal. Maybe you forgot a prot. There's no way that could happen
--rahul--: Did not forget a prot.. was fully baned and fully prot'ed..
Crits are a fixed 10%.. those are "crits".. "high hits" happen a lot more often
--rahul--: Oh and after all that, elixirs!
--rahul--: If a spell sequence is completely predictable.. and a melee runs at every second hit to heal at a distance.. how can a mage every kill a melee.. on the other hand.. after the changes to the weeping and elemental weepings.. melee's outdamage a mage's heals..
Paraduck: 10% max, the crits aren't variable as long as the AL is the same (well, UA is an exception.) I normally crit for 104
Paraduck: Regular hits about half that... 40-55ish
Paraduck: sometimes as low as 30 or as high as 70
--rahul--: No... its 10% fixed.. not max.. you can crit more and lesser..
--rahul--: 10% fixed meaning that there is a 10% fixed chance that the attack will be a crit
Paraduck: Yes, IF a spell sequence is preficatble but any really experienced mage would be able to change that via animation breaking and hold casting.
--rahul--: have you pk'ed much with an elemental weeping sword recently? after the weeping changes?
Paraduck: But don't forget that mages can loather weepings
Paraduck: Yup, I use mainly elementals
--rahul--: Mages can loather weepings but in the O.o servers, it'll be considered debuffing and the melee will throw a hissy fit
And yes, this entire thing is my arguement for "keeping" breaking animation
--rahul--: if mages don't have that option, we will never hit melee's.. spell sequences will be too predictable
--rahul--: and forget about Mage v Mage PK.. no one will *ever* die..
Paraduck: I still don't believe it's as easy to break off from a mage as you're saying.
--rahul--: I am sure its hard.. but its "doable"
Paraduck: I've never seen it done in my 3 years of PKing
--rahul--: Because melee's do it.. *shrug*
Gohan can actually kill me.. and I actually can hit a melee *every* single time he charges by breaking animation
--rahul--: if a melee couldn't break animation quickly.. none of them would last the first minute.. I can cast two wars in the time that usually 1 comes out in.. once the first war hits.. they have less than 3 seconds to break before the second releases
--rahul--: if that
Paraduck: none of them would last the first minute if they just charged at you. It's what happens between the charges that makes us last so long. If I could break my charges, there would be no reason for me to lose in a duel.
Paraduck: And you have that small window between swins to break off. The only way I've seen to break off charging is to jump.. but the war is going to hit you anyway if you do that. :)
--rahul--: That is why you don't charge unless you're right next to the mage =P
--rahul--: I can continously cast wars, and as long as I don't fast cast them or break animation in any other way.. most good melee's will get hit 0 times literally
--rahul--: I've done it before.. I've tried not fast casting..
Paraduck: But by the time you're right next to the mage and charge up, you'll be hit. Unless you don't attack on full power. Have you ever seen Anti Parazi fight a melee?
Paraduck: I know he's going around playing on various servers, so..
--rahul--: yeah but Anti breaks animation
--rahul--: all the time
--rahul--: I can kill almost any melee out there.. that isn't the problem..
*without* fast casting or breaking/holding animation, I don't know anyone who can kill even a "decent" melee
--rahul--: At the moment, I almost *always* hit a melee on his charge.. that is why the only way a melee can kill me is tanking and a LOT of elixirs..
Paraduck: Well, he can also slide around and drag a melee around with him while his spell charges up. It goes back to that breaking charge thing, heh.
--rahul--: yeah but the melee won't stop attacking unless the mage jumps.. and the mage can't slide too far anyway otherwise he won't slide back in time for the spell to cast
Paraduck: Still, it does it's job well =P At least it has when I've fought him
Paraduck: its*
--rahul--: Have you ever fought a mage that defeated you without fast casting in the recent months?
Paraduck: Yup
--rahul--: Who?
Paraduck: Fade-To-Black is one.
--rahul--: That is strange.. I am probably one of the most effective mages versus melee's on my server.. and I can't even get a good melee to below half hp without fast casting =|
And a side note: I'm also surprised that more people aren't taking advantage of major wards on non-GSx armor. It really helps, and tinkered armor reduces the melee damage taken in GSx. (I recently experienced this for myself.)
--rahul--: The only major issue with PvP at the moment is the lag.. which I suspect is getting created by gear
--rahul--: other than that.. *shrug*
other than archers against mages with missile.. we're pretty well balanced
Paraduck: the animation breaks are also a major issue
--rahul--: Why?
--rahul--: without them fights would never end..
Paraduck: Jump spin: It renders melees uselss and is practically a sure way to get away, especially with the bug affecting it that makes you able to not lose stam while jumping.
Chain Elixering: Practically invincibility. Drinking THE's as fast as you can pound a hotkey... well, I think the problem there is obvious.
Hold/Circle/Delay casting: Wouldn't be a problem if melees could break off attacks as easily as mages can with spells.
--rahul--: without jump spin, mages would never survive a gank..
a mage portals in.. 4 melee's get on him, he's dead..
A melee portals in, 4 mages war him but can never land if he keeps running
--rahul--: Chain elixiring: That was another I wanted to add to my list
--rahul--: Casting: Melee's can break off attacks on the dot.. I've seen a LOT of melee's do it. With me even in fights
Paraduck: In a closed area (like MP) that's not quite true. The melee will eventualyl be dead if the mages aren't stupid.
Not really, not when you're charging in or winding up the attack bar. You can jump, but that's not very effective.
--rahul--: In a closed area.. with a mage, it doesn't matter, where..
A mage needs to be able to have a way to break from melee's
--rahul--: and I have never really played a melee very much (except the occasional slaughtering an unbaned mage)..
but Gohan does it.. *shrug*
--rahul--: If he can do it, it can be done
Paraduck: Jumpspin works in closed areas too, I see it being done
--rahul--: Right, it does.. which is why it needs to stay.
--rahul--: Unless you can make a way for mages to be able to stick to a melee and not let an attack break.. you cannot let melee's have that
Paraduck: That's a melee's advantage over archers and mages.
Paraduck: and an aegis because melees can only attack in close quarters. Spells do a considerable amount howver, but I don't think that's broken in any way.
--rahul--: What is a mage's advantage? With gohan, I remember firing of and landing 5 wars on him in a row.. and he still didn't die
--rahul--: it takes 4 spells to kill a melee.. and without any kind of special casting.. its possible for a melee to time his attacks so he skips every single war fired at him
--rahul--: with paraduck you can survive 5 wars
Paraduck: Mage's? Most damage of all the classes and ability to do EVERYTHING from spellcasting mode. You don't NEED to use a healing skill.. you have drain and stam to health
Paraduck: And you don't need to change a weapon or go out of combat to do it
--rahul--: Drain gives back almost nothing.. healing is faster.. stamina gets depleted.. kits don't
--rahul--: yeah but any mage worth his salt usually uses a config that limits him to two at most three damage types before he needs to switch configs
Paraduck: But you have revit =P And drains can make a big difference when used properly. What does damage type have to do with this?
--rahul--: Dude.. *5* wars.. and to land them when a melee actually has to withdraw his attack only for maybe 1-2 seconds of the whole casting sequence?
Paraduck: In a sense, it's an infinite kit, as long as you have comps
--rahul--: nope.. revit gives you back 100 stam
--rahul--: during the time 1 revit gets cast.. a melee can do 100-200 points of damage..
--rahul--: assuming you are sword and have major str + maxed str
Paraduck: And you can stam to health it back and revit again.. and you're still gaining stamina.
--rahul--: umm.. okay.. lets check the maths here..
mage with 400hp
casts revit - gets hit for 150 pts
two options now,
-> casts stam->hp 1, gets back 50 hp, dies before the second revit casts
-> casts stam->hp 7, gets back to full hp.. but during that spell the melee, if he crits a few times will kill him before the spell casts
--rahul--: assuming the mage is taking the full time a 7 is supposed to take.. and not fast casting
Paraduck: I wish we could hit for 150 on any decently prepared person
Paraduck: Especially considering you don't lose anything in PKL so you can use your 40k AL 420 base plate =P
--rahul--: dude.. I've had a melee crit me for *320* through AL 340 armor FULLY baned and with the undergarments fully baned too
--rahul--: and wait.. that wasn't even a crit.. from what I remember.. it was a high hit
--rahul--: al 340 base armor.. I checked like three times.. I was like wtf?
Paraduck: And crits aren't really all that common... and I've been in many many fights where it won't end unless I get two crits in a row (which is extremely rare), or I somehow fail a heal. Maybe you forgot a prot. There's no way that could happen
--rahul--: Did not forget a prot.. was fully baned and fully prot'ed..
Crits are a fixed 10%.. those are "crits".. "high hits" happen a lot more often
--rahul--: Oh and after all that, elixirs!
--rahul--: If a spell sequence is completely predictable.. and a melee runs at every second hit to heal at a distance.. how can a mage every kill a melee.. on the other hand.. after the changes to the weeping and elemental weepings.. melee's outdamage a mage's heals..
Paraduck: 10% max, the crits aren't variable as long as the AL is the same (well, UA is an exception.) I normally crit for 104
Paraduck: Regular hits about half that... 40-55ish
Paraduck: sometimes as low as 30 or as high as 70
--rahul--: No... its 10% fixed.. not max.. you can crit more and lesser..
--rahul--: 10% fixed meaning that there is a 10% fixed chance that the attack will be a crit
Paraduck: Yes, IF a spell sequence is preficatble but any really experienced mage would be able to change that via animation breaking and hold casting.
--rahul--: have you pk'ed much with an elemental weeping sword recently? after the weeping changes?
Paraduck: But don't forget that mages can loather weepings
Paraduck: Yup, I use mainly elementals
--rahul--: Mages can loather weepings but in the O.o servers, it'll be considered debuffing and the melee will throw a hissy fit
And yes, this entire thing is my arguement for "keeping" breaking animation
--rahul--: if mages don't have that option, we will never hit melee's.. spell sequences will be too predictable
--rahul--: and forget about Mage v Mage PK.. no one will *ever* die..
Paraduck: I still don't believe it's as easy to break off from a mage as you're saying.
--rahul--: I am sure its hard.. but its "doable"
Paraduck: I've never seen it done in my 3 years of PKing
--rahul--: Because melee's do it.. *shrug*
Gohan can actually kill me.. and I actually can hit a melee *every* single time he charges by breaking animation
--rahul--: if a melee couldn't break animation quickly.. none of them would last the first minute.. I can cast two wars in the time that usually 1 comes out in.. once the first war hits.. they have less than 3 seconds to break before the second releases
--rahul--: if that
Paraduck: none of them would last the first minute if they just charged at you. It's what happens between the charges that makes us last so long. If I could break my charges, there would be no reason for me to lose in a duel.
Paraduck: And you have that small window between swins to break off. The only way I've seen to break off charging is to jump.. but the war is going to hit you anyway if you do that. :)
--rahul--: That is why you don't charge unless you're right next to the mage =P
--rahul--: I can continously cast wars, and as long as I don't fast cast them or break animation in any other way.. most good melee's will get hit 0 times literally
--rahul--: I've done it before.. I've tried not fast casting..
Paraduck: But by the time you're right next to the mage and charge up, you'll be hit. Unless you don't attack on full power. Have you ever seen Anti Parazi fight a melee?
Paraduck: I know he's going around playing on various servers, so..
--rahul--: yeah but Anti breaks animation
--rahul--: all the time
--rahul--: I can kill almost any melee out there.. that isn't the problem..
*without* fast casting or breaking/holding animation, I don't know anyone who can kill even a "decent" melee
--rahul--: At the moment, I almost *always* hit a melee on his charge.. that is why the only way a melee can kill me is tanking and a LOT of elixirs..
Paraduck: Well, he can also slide around and drag a melee around with him while his spell charges up. It goes back to that breaking charge thing, heh.
--rahul--: yeah but the melee won't stop attacking unless the mage jumps.. and the mage can't slide too far anyway otherwise he won't slide back in time for the spell to cast
Paraduck: Still, it does it's job well =P At least it has when I've fought him
Paraduck: its*
--rahul--: Have you ever fought a mage that defeated you without fast casting in the recent months?
Paraduck: Yup
--rahul--: Who?
Paraduck: Fade-To-Black is one.
--rahul--: That is strange.. I am probably one of the most effective mages versus melee's on my server.. and I can't even get a good melee to below half hp without fast casting =|