Request for Comments: Threat Blips

[Ibn]

Please read the linked article (http://ac.turbinegames.com/index.php?page_id=134) and respond below!

From the article:

What do you think would be a good way of distinguishing threats from non-threats? Do you like the revised system that I’ve described above, or do you have suggestions for a better system?

Things to keep in mind:

Making this not applicable to Darktide is not something we can do at this time.

Making this into an option, either from the command-line or in the character options panel, is not something we can do at this time..

“Just put it back the way it was!” is not useful feedback right now. We are trying to improve the old system.

Posts in this thread that are not constructive will be removed.

While your feedback is very helpful in making our decision, this isn’t a “majority-rules” situation. This is just to give us an idea of what you like and dislike, other factors may influence the final decision.

[Circeus]

Right off, you're working with 5x5 pixels not 4x4, right?

And as far as:

http://ac.turbinegames.com/files/97/24/31/44/54.gif

I think that the difference between the diamond and the small X is easier to distinguish than the difference between the large X and the square-in-X is. But there are certainly other options.

When diamonds or the small Xs are adjunct they're going to make small Xs and diamonds respectively and you're going to still have the problem of distinguishing which is which.

[Ibn]

Good catch, thank you Circeus. Typo corrected.

[Circeus]

Here Ibn I think this image illustrates the problem I'm mentioning. Here I drew a diamond surrounded by 8 Xs. Hard to tell how many of each you have. Gets worse when you shrink it down to true pixel size:

http://god.ognnet.com/files/xs_around_diamond.gif

[Tara Malkav]

First off I'd just like to say, wow, it seems that you've put a lot of work into this and I thank you for that.

No matter what you come up with I think that there will definately be problems distinguishing friend from foe, atleast with radar. I only wish that there were an easier way that didn't involve the radar. Though, unless you want to ID everyone in a Pk battle, there is no way; atleast in crowded areas. So the question is.. what two shapes contrast the most and are easy to distinguish, yet are slightly similar to the old style?

A simple question that is quite hard to answer....

Perhaps they could be blips that mirror themselves? Sortive like your fellowship blips. Have a friendly pk be a triangle. Then take the inverse of that and have an unfrienly pk be an upside down triangle. That could also cause a few problems though, you're dealing with a very touchy subject. Maybe you could also change the color of allegiance member icons? I think no matter what, if you're just distinguishing by one icons shape in a mass of say, 25, it's going to be hard to tell friend from foe.

[Yew Wan Sum]

You know...as much as I hate to say it, the best solution is probably going to be something closer to the old way.

X's are out. They are too big. The 'legs' of the X's overlapping when multiple targets are in close proximity is one of the biggest confusion creators. Nothing should use an X. Look at the 'optical density' of an X. Its very poor. It doesnt 'define an enclosed area' which is important in rapid symbology recognition.

Squares are good. Diamonds are good. Circles are good. X stinks.

There are other ways to distinguish things besides hue. Red and green are a problem because red and green are affected by color blindness more than any other two colors. But even with red and green, if you adjust the *luminosity*, then they can be distinguished easily.


In short, a system where shape, luminosity, and color all play a part.

Examples:

Brilliant Crimson Red Diamond = same status PK not alligned with you in any way
Muted Rustic Red Square = PK allegiance member not in fellow
Brilliant Crimson Red Up Triangle = PK not in your allegiance who is fellow leader.
Brilliant Crimson Red Square = PK allegiance member fellow leader
Dull Pink 'regular dot' = Person not in allegiance who is different PK status than you and not in fellow.
Dull Pink square = Person in Allegiance who is different PK status than you and not in fellow.
Light Neon Green Up Triangle = Fellow leader who is NPK
Light Neon Green Square = Allegiance member fellow leader.
Dull Green Down Triangle = Fellow member not in allegiance who is NPK
(I actually prefer the original Dot to the down triangle, but whatever)
Dull green square = Fellow NPK member in your allegiance.
White square = NPK Allegiance member not in fellow
White dot = NPK Non-Allegiance member not in fellow



All you have to do is make sure the 'greyscale equivalent luminosity' of the light green and the crimson red, and of the dull green and dull pink, etc. ,are different enough to distinguish on a greyscale monitor.

[FeralthioMT]

Turn it back to the old way we had it and just make the colors brighter.

[Ibn]

Luminosity is also not something we can change -- the number of colors that we have to work with are limited, particularly because the radar already alters luminosity based on height above or below the character.

[Yew Wan Sum]

*digs out a color wheel*

Ok, gimmie a few..

..wait. First tell me how many basic colors you can have and what limitations are imposed on their choice.

I'll see what I can come up with.

[GKusnick]

I'm not convinced that "same PK status" is the right concept here. As a non-PK, I care very little about who's a PK or PKL. What I care about is threats.

When I'm NPK, all other players are non-threats and can be white. A monster significantly above my level is a serious threat and should be red. A monster roughly my own level is a mild threat and can be orange. A monster well below my level is no threat and can be yellow.

Should I choose to go PKL, then I'd expect PKLs significantly above my level to show as red, PKLs roughly my own level to show as orange, PKLs well below my level as yellow. PKs and NPKs are non-threats and should be white.

Likewise if I go PK: only other PKs are threats, and should be colored by relative level. PKLs and NPKs are non-threats and can be white.

Allegiance and fellowship make the color scheme more complicated, and I don't have any specific suggestions for those. But the basic idea is to reserve the red-orange-yellow spectrum to indicate degree of threat, regardless of species. Pink shouldn't be used at all, since it's visually very hard to tell from orange.

Of course this would require transmitting a creature's level as part of its creation info, and not just when IDed. (Or is that done already?)

If it's necessary to distinguish players from monsters and NPCs, that's where shape can come in. Keep the cross for monsters, use a triangle for players, and save the X for NPCs. Or something like that.

[Televangelist]

Whatever you do, there should be absolutely *no* shapes on the radar which do not define an enclosed space.

Triangles of any direction, circles, squares, diamonds, semi-circles, dots, rectangles, trapezoids...

...Pick whatever you want. But for rapid, on-the-fly symbol recognition, it needs to be an enclosed symbol. (As in, not an X, not a cross, that sort of thing).


The main question this leaves me with, though, is... Was there any significant demand from the players that it needed to be easier to distinguish between PK's and non-PK's? On my Solclaim forays, I don't remember it ever being a problem telling who was red and who wasn't.

[Eddie the Crazy]

Originally posted by Televangelist
The main question this leaves me with, though, is... Was there any significant demand from the players that it needed to be easier to distinguish between PK's and non-PK's? On my Solclaim forays, I don't remember it ever being a problem telling who was red and who wasn't.

While I don't really think anything of it, sometimes when there are a lot of white dots on the radar, they hide red or pink dots if they surround the PK/L

[Jin Saotome]

I didn't read through everyone elses's suggestions, so my apologies if any of my ideas/suggestions have already been mentioned.

We're all concerend with different dots, triangles, circles, etc. Well why not just distinguish non-fellow/allegiance threats as red horizontial bars? Just like a minus sign -- They'd be thin enough to avoid overlapping, so you'd be able to tell how many were in the general area. When you targeted one, it would appear to be a circle with a line across the middle, easily distinguishable from other targetd objects.

And can we not have onscreen-targeters pop up around threats, like when you select someone/something? Those 4 little arrows that zero in around a character/item box. These would float around a PK threat, without you having to target them of course, and you'd be able to tell who's who if someone quickly ran across your screen because they'd have the targeters around them as they passed by.

[Rortie]

I am also solidly NPK. As long I can never have a problem discerning and selecting what are threats to me, knock yourselves out with funky new blips. Whatever they are.

R

[pacesetter]

getting a little too complicated here.

green works for fellows, with open fellows who cares who the leader is?

red works for PK, make alleg members square. same for PKL.

for clusters drop the pixel rate to smaller dots and keep out of shape dots, x's, v's or whatever for PK or PKL.

NPK is working, don't change it.

baddie blips work, don't change it.

using person select keys works, jus a pain when you are getting attacked by an archer or mage who surrounds himself with white dots.


IBN, appreciate the hard work and genuine concern for us!

[Kieoto]

When I'm NPK, all other players are non-threats and can be white. A monster significantly above my level is a serious threat and should be red. A monster roughly my own level is a mild threat and can be orange. A monster well below my level is no threat and can be yellow.

yellow? you mean dark blue?

You're trying to EQ out the radar! Shame!!

[Virindi Clown]

I would prefer ONLY colors be used. Instead of clan members being squares, they would be one color dots. Anyone else, just red dots.

PKs could be squares, NPKs could be dots.

PKL guys are pink squares.

We could distinguish between squares and dots appropriately, so extending the idea is viable.

[Setolc]

As a permanent NPKr I also second two themes.

First I liked having squares distinguish my monarchy mates at all times. (No I do not like that when in a fellowship you switch to a triangle).

I do not like the changes made in the fellowship where all are triangles. When we are outdoors hunting (i.e., VoD) trying to find the leader amongst the triangles is not easy.

I've yet to see a PKr on Leafcull since the PKL introduction. I have no comments on the size of the blip. Nor do I fully understand why any change was made to the blips that we had before.

[Sac]

Ibn,

Some of the ole time and current flight combat sims used radar dots or small ovals with small straight tick lines to indicate direction of travel and aspect angle.

What about incorporating a simple 2 pixel line in the the 12 oclock to indicate a pkl threat

pink dot(or oval) with 12 oclock tick or direction of travel tick

fellow member pkl, grn triangle with 12 oclock tick mark, leader would be upright triangle, recruits inverted triangle with tick in 12 oclock

allegiance member pkl, pink square with 12 oclock tick

just a thought

[Ibn]

Originally posted by Yew Wan Sum
*digs out a color wheel*

Ok, gimmie a few..

..wait. First tell me how many basic colors you can have and what limitations are imposed on their choice.

I'll see what I can come up with.

Right now all of the colors that we have as options are being used. Creating new colors for the radar is trickier than you would expect unfortunately.

[Ibn]

I've gone ahead and stripped out many of the replies and suggestions that, while otherwise excellent, were beyond the scope of what we can do at this time.

Just to be clear I did NOT delete the posts -- I've moved them to a different location so that I can reread them later. As I said, many of them are excellent and things that we would like to do when we have more resources. But this thread is for the immediate question at hand.

[HeXt]

How about you guys make everyone ELSE X's... and the actual PK's/PKL's/White dots appear as that dot as they are surrounded by.


That way PK/L's can not hide among them.

It's easier to see a dot among X's than an X among Dots.




Basically just reverse the system. Hell, darktide would be happy with that.

[Yew Wan Sum]

*sigh* Remind me again why we are going through this when so many limitations are in place? 10 iterations of radar design, none of which will please everyone, or are even guaranteed to be acceptable to a majority, are no replacement for a configurable radar.

Anyways, enough of the Monday talk. Lets see what I can come up with....



Pink = Someone you cannot help or harm(i.e. pk or pkl to npk. pk to a pkl. pkl to a pk.)

It sucks to try and heal someone only to find out they are pk, so there needs to be a way to distinguish between who you can affect and who you cant

Red = Someone who can and just might hurt you (same status pk's)


Pink = non-helpable/harmable people with either pk or pkl status


white = default




So....

Regular npk = White dot
Regular npk in fellow = green dot
regular npk allegiance member in fellow = green square
regular npk fellow leader = green down triangle
regular npk fellow leader allegiance member = green up triangle

same status pk in fellow = red dot
same status pk fellow leader = red down triangle
same status pk fellow leader allegiance member = red up triangle
same status pk not in allegiance = red diamond
same status pk in allegiance = red square

non-helpable pk/pkl = pink dot
non-helpable pk/pkl in fellow = pink small X(new symbol) or pink diamond
non-helpable pk fellow leader = pink down triangle
non-helpable pk allegiance member in fellow = pink square
non-helpable pk allegiance member fellow leader = pink up triangle

The reasons for the small x for fellowed pk's are to 1) distinguish that they are in the fellow and 2) distinguish that you cant help or harm them and 3) to make them harder to select since you cant affect them anyways and 4) to keep the size of their symbol from creating group-clutter

The small x is a 3x3 grid just like a tic-tac-toe board with lighted pixels forming an x. Don't get me wrong, I don't like X's as a symbol, but since this is the only one and its somewhat rare anyways, it might be acceptable. As an alternative, you can use a diamond.

Note that the triangle now distinguishes fellow leader, with up and down signifying allegiance affiliation. The current system doesnt present the user with any way to distinguish this, and to me, it also very hard to distinguish between leader and regular person because of the clutter. Thats why I think fellow non-allegiance should be back to dots. If you really really need a different shape, you can use the small green x for this, or the diamond.

Thats about the best I can do with what there is to work with.

[Virindi Clown]

Here's an idea and its within the current limitations:

Change it back to how it was before because it worked and there was nothing wrong with it?

Oh, and I understand that certain special things, like admins, have their own colors.

Why not use the colors instead of Xs and X square things and stuff, and turn the things you DONT see into Xs?

If admins were Xs, it'd be more recognizable. If guild mates were blue, that'd be great.

The all triangle thing in fellows has got to go as well. I just don't understand how tiny reversed triangles make it more distinguishable. Goes along the same lines as tons of Xs.

[Trai]

Here's the thing...

Knowing who is in your fellow is important. And green color does that very nicely.

Knowing who is in your allegiance by shape is good. Squares do that very nicely but some of us would be happier if you gave us a color as well as a shape for allegiance members. (A color which is overwritten by the temporary fellowship colors, thank you.)

Knowing who the fellow leader is virtually useless with everyone in a fellow being able to recruit others and fellow leaders being able to drop out without any negative consequences to the group. (Thank you for that.) If you need to know the fellow leader for some reason, you can ask around.

If you have gone red (or even pink) everyone who is a matching color should be considered as a potential opponent. The thrill you get when a dangerous blip hits your radar is profound enough so that it should not be reduced by some sort of tertiary system of identification. The quick questions of "dangerous color?" [y/n] and "my allegiance?" [y/n] are enough. By giving us a third means of determining threat status, you're making the radar more cluttered even as you reduce immersion by making the game less scary (for lack of a better word).

Further, while it is true that you're not normally going to fight someone in your own allegiance, the fact is that people in the same fellow or allegiance will duel each other occasionally. (In my years on Darktide, it was much more common to duel someone in my own allegiance than to duel someone outside my allegiance.)

There is one occasion in which you're going to have a problems determining relativity of pk status. When you're fellowed. Something additional is needed here to prevent people from accidentally debuffing their fellow members or trying to heal people who cannot receive heals.


So do this...
White round = npk player not in same allegiance or fellow
White square = npk player in the same allegiance but not in fellow

Red round = pk player not in same allegiance or fellow (a threat)
Red square = pk player in same allegiance but not in fellow

Pink round = pkl player not in same allegiance or fellow (a threat)
Pink square = pkl player in same allegiance but not in fellow

Green round = same pk status, not in same allegiance but in same fellow
Green Square = same pk status, in same allegiance and in same fellow
Green Upright Triangle = differing pk status, in same allegiance and fellow
Green Downward Triangle = differing pk status and allegiance, in same fellow

Using that system while fellowed...
Someone who plays as npk normally would be used to seeing Green rounds and squares in fellows.
Someone who plays on DT and hasn't been killed recently would be used to seeing green rounds and squares.
Someone who plays on DT but has been killed recently would see green triangles.
Someone who plays on an NPK server as a PK/L would normally see Green Triangles.

[stargrove]

you really should only have two different types of dots on the radar, anymore more get's confusing. Please do not go with X.

So what about using colors

enemy
NPC
character
allegiance
fellowship

then there is

PK
PK-Lite

What do you think?

[Ryucho Rajileth]

Colors should not be changed in any way. Too many people would be confused and it would cause a great upheval in AC society. Players like conformity, and with PKL added in, that conformity was not broken. We like to keep things the way they are and the way we know them. Colors cannot/should not be changed because certain things already occupy each color...
The original colors in the game were:
Red-PK
Pink-Advocate
White-NPK
Orange-Monster
Yellow-NPC
Green-fellowship
Blue-Lifestone
Purple-Portal/gateway

When advocates were removed from the game, pink dots became available for a new purpose. PKL took up that purpose. When fishing was added, no color was available for fishing holes as the basic spectrum colors were already taken by other things. Lifestones were known by the developers to be nowhere near any place where they were putting the fishing holes, so they decided to make fishing holes blue, since Lifestones do not move and neither do Fishing Holes.
The Color/Shape Scheme has changed over the years to this:
Red-PK
Pink-PKL
White-NPK
Orange-Monster
Yellow-NPC
Green-Fellowship
Blue-Lifestone/Fishing Hole
Purple-Portal/gateway
Dot-Basic radar blip, multicolored (NPK,PKL,PK,NPC,Monster,Portal,Lifestone,Etc)
Square-Allegiance members (pink for PKL, red for PK, etc)
Triangle- Fellowship. Green only.
Cross- PKL, pink only (shown only in PKL mode)

It has changed very little over the years and is still good with that. I see no reason to change it, because it works. The only addition I would suggest is making more difference in fellowship for fellowed allegiance members and fellowed PKL/PKs because with the new icon it is rather confusing.

People want to make changes but dont realize how much work it takes to make some of the simplest changes. Color changes should NOT be made under any circumstance. If the colors change then people will have to re-learn the Radar blips. There should only be drastic changes made if a new need for different radar blips is found/made.

[stargrove]

i see what you mean. The problem that I see, as with any "radar" is how much to display.

At that point, it's how can we display it in such a way that it makes it easy for the customer (player) to not only see it, but also respond/take action.

i do not agree by changing the icons on the screen. I think we have too much clutter on the radar.

So let's change tactics a bit. What do we use the radar for? At the same time, I also have to ask - do you use any supplemental programs that help with the radar (decal).

I use the radar for counting creatures, finding portals, identify who's PK/nPK.

If I need to know who's alleginace member or a fellowmember I use another program. The only exception to this is when they are lost outside or in a dungeon and I have to find them. I know what their coordinates are. But the radar is a good visual indicator.

Also let's look at other game's radar.. for example AC2. What did you like/dislike about it.

[GKusnick]

Color changes should NOT be made under any circumstance.I have to disagree. Not being a PKL myself, I have zero interest in who's a PKL and who isn't. PKLs are not threats to me, but the pink PKL dots look very much like orange monster dots. That's bad. Threats and non-threats should have distinctly different colors. If you do nothing else, please change it so that PKLs show as white dots on NPK radar.

[Shao Majii]

While I would like to offer a complete solution, I am currently at a loss. However, I have a few things that might help to come up with one.

Of all the blips that should recieve a more annoying indicator (supposing that we are stuck with one like the Xs) it should be be one (or more) of the following:
NPCs
Fishing Holes
Lifestones

Why? 1)they aren't trying to kill players. 2)they don't move (at least not far in some NPC's cases)



Also, the leader of a fellow can be important. Suppose they are the only person in the group that has any clue as to where they are going?

So, I offer up the idea of making the non-leader members of a fellowship hollowed out triangles similar to how the squares have a hollow center, only making the hollow triangles have thin lines. The size of the triangles can make it hard to click on the correct person at times, and makes it difficult to see who is who.

Perhaps we could also add something to the fellowship panel to show us who the leader is? This would be slightly helpful but not a dramatic need.

[Trai]

Here is a question: Could PKs and PKLs look red to all NPKs while only appearing red each other if they're currently the same PK status?

If so then you could assign the pink dot color to allegiance members and make it so that a PKL would see all non-allegiance, non-fellow member PKLs as red. Conversely, a PK would see all non-allegiance, non-fellow PKs as red round dots. And NPKs would continue to see non-allegiance, non-fellow NPKs as white round dots.

All NPKs and PKLs not in the same allegiance or fellow would appear as white round dots to a PK player.

All PKs and NPKs not in the same allegiance or fellow would appear as white round dots to a PKL player.

Green dots would still be for fellow members.

Upward triangle could be allegiance members in fellow/allegiance with a conflicting pk status.

Downward triangles could represent individuals with conflicting status who are not in the same allegiance but who are in the same fellow.

Again, I'm making a basic assumption that we really do not need to know who a fellowship leader is now that anyone can invite someone into a fellow.

[Setolc]

Originally posted by Trai
Here's the thing...

Knowing who is in your fellow is important. And green color does that very nicely.

Knowing who is in your allegiance by shape is good. Squares do that very nicely but some of us would be happier if you gave us a color as well as a shape for allegiance members. (A color which is overwritten by the temporary fellowship colors, thank you.)

Knowing who the fellow leader is virtually useless with everyone in a fellow being able to recruit others and fellow leaders being able to drop out without any negative consequences to the group. (Thank you for that.) If you need to know the fellow leader for some reason, you can ask around.

...



I agree the green color for fellowship is very nice. I welcomed that change when originally made. The introduction of the upwards triangle was great (when sqaures first introduced).

But I have to disagree with the assumption (notated by Trai) that distinguishing fellows leaders is "useless".

When you are on a quest, and the Fellow Leader is the person who you are supposed to follow, distinguishing between the triangles is very difficult. Example during Bobo, you are making turns going around corners, etc. While fighting through the dungeon. So you cannot keep the fellow leader selected. Very challenging.

Also hunting outdoors, where your fellowship is supposed to stay with the leader is challenging with the triangles.

If people only used fellowship for xp hunting in dungeons (where little coordination of effort is needed) then the changed system would be ok.

Change the non leader fellow members to DOTS if nothing else is possible.

As to pink versus orange dot color. To be completely honest, the only NPKrs I've seen are typically in the following locations:

Marketplace
Subway (the Hub)
Around Ayan LS

In none of those locations on Leafcull are there typical monster spawns. So I would recommend changing back to Red Dots, Pink Dots & White Dots.

That would help the issues faced by Darktide as well.

My thoughts (worth less than 2 pyreal I know).

Seto
fun.dereth.ac

[Ibn]

Thank you all for your feedback. Even the feedback that was off-topic was valuable, and I've saved it elsewhere.

Later today or tomorrow I'll post a more specific proposal for your persual. :)