Generic XP Lever---I rest my case

[Caffeine]

Here's a direct quote from Ibn about your precious darktide only content.

"Right now we're still operating with fewer engineering resources than we were this time last year, so we're looking for ways to address issues like these with a minimum of engineering. The Darktide content requires no engineering, and the engineering for the un-debuffable creatures has already been completed."

Notice the *NO* before engineering? Which means they spent how much time on this idea?

I cant believe so many people are excited about this generic idea. Just goes to show how desperate the server is right now. To hell with innovation, we'll just continue to spend 13 bucks a month for what again?

[Ftuoil_Xelrash]

word to the MF

[Virindi Clown]

Yeah, it seemed like it was just the easy, band-aid way out to me. :(

But you know what else requires no engineering? Disabling allegiance housing barriers on DT and/or the allegiance house recall command. That seems even easier...

[Ibn]

That's simply not true. Both of your suggestions require engineering work. These changes can't be done through content.

[Lutieus]

If it works, it works. Nobody gets upset about eating hamburgers at restaurants because they "didn't take any work to think of."

[Shon_Tsu]

I'm not sure what the relationship between no engineering and no time is. If anything it would take more time to think up a solution that doesnt require engineering changes. Just look at all the suggestions on these boards that would take major engineering changes to make happen.

Grasping at straws to protect a position maybe?

[Virindi Clown]

That's simply not true. Both of your suggestions require engineering work. These changes can't be done through content.

Thanks for the response.

Oh, sweet jeebus. I will never understand some of the bizarre ways in which this game works.

It just seems so simple to disable a command...

I suppose it is complicated because it is a change to mechanics, not just content, that you would have to apply only to DT?

Out of curiosity though, I'd really like to know something: is it actually harder to change something with housing like it has been suggested than to implement the "xp lever" dungeons?

[WarsongDT]

IBN,

So exactly why does anyone wanna buy an expansion that is nothing more than a texture upgrade to graphics, a few new models for new monsters, a new race (bah, worthless same model just different race name), new islands which can just be placed in a monthly update; ala Aphus Lassel.

Why would we want an expansion where augmentation gems, a glorified feature, isn't available unless you have the xp to spend on them; what about new players who don't have the xp? Why would we want *rares* that are rather lame because they don't live up to their rare status with their actual use. Plus they are drop on death; PvPers get screwed by this and you can get screwed by it on white servers; and 90% of the poeple won't get to enjoy anything useful anyways cause if those level 5 ones are not so well thought out I can only imagine what you get with level 1s; a mug of Drudge Ale that gives you +1 for 3 secs to Cooking skill?

What exactly does this expansion offer us except for the extra eye candy and content that'll be finished in the first couple of weeks it comes out?

You want this game to last, to be successful, and you want the expansion to draw players back then you must start making REAL improvements here and now to the game and its engine. My impression of what the expansion will be is something slopped together to try and get more money and try and keep players in the game longer. (I have no clue why you are making an expansion for AC2; nothing against the player base and it is a fairly decent game but it simply doesn't have the players that AC1 does and you shouldn't be focusing on an expansion for something that is considered inferior to AC1.)

Everything that has been released each patch has been bandaid fixes, rehashed content just with different names and graphics, and a lack of true forsight and care about the PvP aspects of the game.

Here is the thing IBN. You have your skills but if I was your Boss and you suggested that (the xp lever) to me in an MMORPG and you were in any lead positions I'd instantly question your placement there. Obviously, you lack any real design skills and you lack any true understanding of both MMORPG and PvP mechanics.

I may sound harsh here but the simple reality of this is that I'm willing to bet that 90% of the Darktide player base has more understanding of MMORPG PvP mechanics than you do.

There is nothing I have against you as a person IBN. I'm not trying to be a flamer and incite personal attacks but enough is enough. This has got to stop.

On a final note are two things to ponder between WoW and AC1:

1. The graphics. AC1 loses this battle and though its important in the end it isn't as important once players play the game. Thus you are left with the second thing.

2. Gameplay. If you take the time your gameplay can be just as good if not better than WoW. If you need to work out the engineering resources issue then work it out; after all this is a multi-million dollar business and why on Earth wouldn't you strive to make your game the most profitable game on the market? This is the way. If there is a feature you know that would improve the game and make people stay then why not do anything you can even if that means working on recoding or engineering? Players would definately be thankful. You know how many players would come back if you implemented many of these features? Not bandaid fixes but ACTUAL REAL FEATURES.

The last true feature, which was botched badly, was tinkering. Tinkering has pretty much died out; not completely true but not to far from the truth either.

Why haven't you taken a look at tinkering at all either? Why isn't there new tinkering things? I could sit here and in a span of 10 minutes come with with excellent, balanced ideas for improving tinkering using the current salvages and the other stuff which hasn't been useful yet, which is technologically possible and would improve tinkering by huge amounts.

Why can this dev team not to that? Why don't you do that instead of concentrating on some worthless quest that A. Very rarely available to all players(ala DT), isn't useful anyways cause you cannot add higher end stuff yet it isn't useful cause higher end stuff is so easy to get anyways that everyone has it. B. Takes up alot of time to model and place in the world; is easily solved right away and really does nothing to improve the game besides giving a player something to do for about 30 mins and then its done.

Whats the deal? Why does every single current MMORPG developer or Live Team have ZERO clue about true game design for roleplaying systems that involve communities?

[Virindi Clown]

The main selling point of the expansion that is in the interest of everyone playing is definitely the graphics upgrade. However, that doesn't even begin to change the gameplay issues, and I've never been one to give a crap about graphics.

The other selling point that most everyone would be involved with was the one truly innovative content the expansion pack was supposed to bring, territory control. However, it has been pushed back and won't be a part of it.

Considering that and the fact that I would get NOTHING whatsoever out of the higher level stuff (augmentation gems, level cap increase...), the expansion doesn't appear too promising in my case. For others it is different, but it is certainly unfortunate.

Weren't we once told that there would be a major change to AC every 6 months, and minor things of importance every few months?

The last thing I remember that was considered to be a major change was the introduction of tinkering, which was seemingly a bajillion years ago. The expansion pack doesn't even appear to bring something of that caliber, which is my real problem with the way the game is going right now.

I understand very well that the team working on AC is very limited and constrained for time and resources, but to sum it up, I just don't see things being prioritized properly at all.

[WarsongDT]

The only response to yours VC:

Right on 100%.

[Jida]

The issue here is that none of us are ready to 'put up or shut up' and neither is Turbine.

This means, not a one of us here can guarantee that the work done to DT (PvP) will actually have a return at this point in the game.

Would any of us quit our day jobs to join Turbine as the PvP producer at low pay and demanding hours? No day job for you since you would have to be working on this when everyone else is available.

Would any of us put together a business plan with the guarantee of a monetary return?

Things like getting rid of the barriers or the @allegiance recalls are just as much bandaides to the issues as the XP lever is.

All of our frustrations are evident here. Many of us that post have played DT since the giddyup. To watch the server fall apart the way it has over the years has been painful.

We are now in a state where 1 fix will not fix the server. It will take a revamping of many small things to effectively create a new server where people will want to come back.

A few things to note,

1) We really need to let go of the past - the idea that leveling on DT or starting out should be hard is an outdated concept. Back when we had 1600 players on at peak and level 60 was high this was a good philosophy. Now it is like tightening the noose around your neck thinking it helps. With our established player base 100 level 126's or 1000 will not break the server. People that can get to 126 quickly might actually stay and play.

2) You can't balance a drop of water on a sphere - we need to get a baseline going first, a way of thinking, before any real work can be done. We need to create a common mindset where we all see the goal and work towards it. In this way, we throw out the arguments and the desires of the top 10% and try to concentrate on the feasibility of the middle 80% while also not wiping the collective butts of the bottom 10%.

3) DT is for PvP - we all know this but many of us are hypocrites. Anything that draws away from PvP should be seen as anti-DT. In this you will see things such as all of the recalls, the marketplace and sith as bad things. They either dilute the playerbase into these areas (while they look for fights) or they bring people together into one laggy area with no value other than possibly fighting other people. This is different than creating a real PvP environment, this is making one spot where people fight while leaving the other 99% out.

4) All attack types and defenses need to be looked at - War Magic needs to have armor ignoring and armor aware attack types just like melee/missle do. This allows for the playing field to be leveled. The armor ignoring ones would be reduced in effectiveness while the armor aware ones would benefit from imperils and do more damage (based upon armor levels). Magic defense needs to be effected by burden (like the other defenses). There are many things that need to be looked at in order to truly start to balance things out for PvP. Right now we are chasing a 3 legged dog with a 4 legged jumpsuit.

Basically,... you have the potential to really make something out of the server however it is far more than adding a few things here and taking a few things from there.

[WarsongDT]

You are right on that Jida.

Problem 1:
Turbine lacks any forsight whatsoever. They lack creative talents and experienced game designers for community based systems that are balanced. Turbine got lucky when they first made AC and a few years of development; but alot of that was due to the fact that Turbine was one of the very few MMORPGS available and they actually had a more skill based combat system.

Problem 2:
Due to their own lack of forsight or abilities to create some new features without disrupting balance they have begun to shy away from such things. They cannot think ahead properly and thus they resorted to *easy* refaced and recycled content.

Problem 3:
Money. They have become more and more like a corporate company thats primary vision is the money. They won't take as many risks now.

I cannot recall who came up with the tinkering idea but that was definately the best idea that came to the game next to the potential of what housing could have been for both pk and non-pk players alike. Whoever had come up with the tinkering idea is your best bet at game designer even though that was botched in many ways.

AC is dying like so many have said. I'm not trying to be a doomsayer I'm trying to be realistic. I'm not saying its dead I'm saying its dying and unless it finds some kind of massive Health Elixir of Greater Healing it won't survive another lifestone encounter.

[Jida]

I remember 'earning' my levels and yet now I know that is not the mindset needed now.

We also do not need to have everyone on DT be instantly 'maxed out' as soon as they log in.

I have posted at least 100 ideas over the years to improve PK. Now take that with the 1000's of ideas from others over the years and you can start to see a few common threads.

The main one is, "We want to log in for a reason."

It is not about the EXP or the +1 Shiney Thing of Mediocrity,... it is that when we login there was a purpose.

In the 'old days' it was the politics and the race for power within our limited view of what 'power' was. Now it simply is macro till you get bored of macroing and then die to a few people that actually play and go back to macroing.

We are not giving people a reason to play. The PvP given in AC will not give you the same thing a good FPS will,... at least now it doesn't.

I could remember getting the hand shakes and thumping heart so bad during a PvP fight that I could not continue. I remember hearing others say the same.

I also remember 'caring' about the server and my role in it. Now there is no pride in what you do so therefore there is no caring of what happens.

You guys remember the guys that would drop PPGSA in the middle of the AB LS and then SS it? Remember feeling disgust with that? This is of course before we realized they were duping it but before that man it was like watching the Mona Lisa get peed on.

Now that level of 'caring' does not exist and it started from the top down.

We can get this back however real work will need to be done with the goal of succeeding. Anything else will not do.

[Caffeine]

In order to get things back into shape Turbine would have to concentrate on reversing the trend they adopted about three years ago. The whole idea of catering to the whiners. It's what destroyed UO in the end and it will be what inevitably kills AC too. By catering to lazy peoples complaints and making things more simple, Turbine has continued to change the core mechanics of the game and remove all purpose or meaning of what the original developers envisioned as a good mmorpg. A perfect example of this is AC2. Had to be the most dumbed down mmorpg to ever hit the shelves and not suprisingly, it was the biggest flop EVER.

There is no reason for anyone to interact with eachother. Everything has been dumbed down so far, nothing is really important anymore.

Give the players a reason to play. Give them a reason to interact and depend on eachother again. The need to goto town and stay more than a few secs. I keep stressing the whole town control aspect, but it really is the only thing that can save this game. Get people out into the world again, away from their safety zones.

If not then this game will just become more of an anti-social, single player, disgrace of what could have been.

[Jida]

When Atlans first came out there were very few people with buffed 225 Alchemy scores on DT that could make an ingot. I remember when one guy was known for doing it and he wanted 2 motes as payment.

A couple of guys mouthed off to him about not showing up on time and he banned the whole guild from his services. This effected their guild enough that they had to boot those 2 guys out to get back in good with the Alchemist.

You will never see that dynamic on DT again however you can get back to the player interaction levels we used to have.

Anything that can be exploited, abused or otherwise screwed with will be. Anything that involves a lot of complex skill and player thought will be accepted and loved.

I TOTALLY agree that the dumbing down of the game in general led to the downfall of DT.

Back when we had spell research and something on a slow spawn at 3k exp was good (and camped) is where I feel the game was best.

With the inflation of levels about to happen things will obviously be dumbed down again since people WANT WANT WANT!!!

I think all of us could write up our visions for DT and I am 100% sure that most of it would be the same,... it would be fruitless though.

[Heideggar]

I can't say I disagree with much of anything that's been said here.

All I can add is that it will take more than an XP-Lever to turn things around. As said, several things, small AND big, will be required to make a significant turn around.

If Housing, Land Control, and XP-Gaining was all rolled up into one fix, it might help change things.

As a quick example:

A town is taken over by killing off housing that is the towns "protectors". Busting up the housing (breaking/attacking the barrier stone) will weaken the town's defenses, which can be later attacked. After a month, based on the point system accrued from defenders/attackers (kills made by protectors against non-protectors within a land-area aka the town limits VS protector kills and busting up the housing), the town will fall under the control of the attackers. All housing becomes up for sale. For 3 days the housing will be open to the allegiance that did the most killing and housing damage. Then, it will be open to anyone. When you have control of the town, and successively more territory, you get benefits, like.... staying in town for so long increases the % XP you get for X-amount of time afterwards (something WoW does), increased trade/tinkering skills based on amount of time in the town, and other things of this nature.

Basicly, you get people out of housing, something to fight over, land control, a rating system, people into towns, helps fix the tinker/trade issue, helps solve the XP-gaining feature (emphasis on help), and this idea can be expanded to other areas.

Say Holtburg, a newbie town, is hard to take over, in that the benefits from this territory outweighs others, and worth the effort to hold. You get newbie influx, allow land holders to have certain control features of the casino (Mafia has moved in on Monty's Casino and bought him out!), and things like this.



Am I dreaming here, or could Turbine really fix so many problems with something like this!? Granted, more details and thought would be required, but I'm pretty sure I mentioned this idea 9 months ago when some of us were discussing land-control and housing problems (Around AC's Turbine Nation thing).

[Thanatos_DT]

"3) DT is for PvP - we all know this but many of us are hypocrites. Anything that draws away from PvP should be seen as anti-DT. In this you will see things such as all of the recalls, the marketplace and sith as bad things. They either dilute the playerbase into these areas (while they look for fights) or they bring people together into one laggy area with no value other than possibly fighting other people. This is different than creating a real PvP environment, this is making one spot where people fight while leaving the other 99% out."

Completely agree, I think this is a big issue. Having just one battleground or even just a few battle areas feels like quake to me...which is why I'm against the xp lever (among other reaons).

This also leads into another big issue, where I disagree with IBN completeley:

DT IS NOT JUST PvP. DT IS a more chalenging and risky way to play an MMORPG, but we're not here JUST FOR PVP. If we were, we'd play guild wars, or Counter Strike Source, or Unreal Tournament, etc instead of AC. I play DT because I LOVE PVP, but not because I don't like getting leet armor and weapons, or questing, or even exploring (with the chance of coming across a pk on the way of course). See how this works? RPG WITH PVP. Not JUST PVP.

[WarsongDT]

Isn't IBN suppose to be a pvper?

Obviously, with what he suggests and the way in which he proposes it he is not one. I agree with you 100% Thanatos. I like to PvP but I also like trying to build my character as well; hunting for new things or even going on a quest or two.

One of the worse ideas that has ever been implemented into AC was Weeping weapons. Not because they were primarily to balance things out but because they were quest oriented and easy for everyone to get. They are top of the line items for pvping; what happened to loot generated items being the best?

As far as RPG and PvP elements go in this game; we seriously need epic quests that PvPers can benefit from as well; we need epic items that take a while to find through looting creatures, ala back in the day with shadow armor and atlan weapons.

When will they finally get the hint?

=/

[Virindi Clown]

Isn't IBN suppose to be a pvper?

Eh, that depends on how you define it. :)

Some of the Turbine peeps have said they play DT, but they aren't claiming to have been exclusively on DT since the game came out.

One of the worse ideas that has ever been implemented into AC was Weeping weapons. Not because they were primarily to balance things out but because they were quest oriented and easy for everyone to get. They are top of the line items for pvping; what happened to loot generated items being the best?

Hmmm...I don't know if weepings were one of the worst ideas ever, but they've turned out to be pretty bad. I mean, we're still having big problems with them after they came out, how long ago? :eek:

Like so many other problematic things for PvP, weepings are also a band-aid fix. When you get down to it, they were implemented to deal with the issue of the one "bugged" month where the "pre-patch" armor dropped like crazy, completely throwing off the balance of tinkered items that had come not too long before that. They didn't want to hot fix it because it didn't necessarily hurt things with the other servers, so we are still paying. Weepings were a quick fix to deal with upping damage to be more balanced against the drastically more powerful new armor without changing things in PvM. It is a fairly simple quest based off of two that already existed, and it results in a primary piece of equipment for PvP that is NO-DROP, which is really the fatal flaw. They made carrying a tinkered weapon around completely unnecessary for PvP, so there was no longer anything to keep any class of characters from going no-drop.

It's a case of trying to avoid special treatment for the minority that led to even more special treatment in the end (in the form of a large use of resources that could have been avoided) that is continuing even now. :(

[-EtG-]

lol, only read half of this, but lol funny stuff