Tell us what you think of the December Letter to the Players!

[Ibn]

Read the LttP here (http://ac.turbinegames.com/index.php?page_id=133).

[Yew Wan Sum]

Hmm, debuffing weeping, eh? Interesting. I'll see how it pans out before passing any judgement on that.


Now, as for the melee mods, your change is not sufficient, IMO.
Even with an incredibly nice full tinkered with brass weapon, it will give an additional 3-4 points of effective melee def with this change, and then ONLY with a full suit of +1d armor. Thats, on average, 30 pieces of nice armor you will need to find along with the salvage to imbue them.

I don't think anyone would think its worth the risk. I mean, cmon. Look at the numbers. Take 450 melee def. Each tink of melee def on a weapon will give a person 4.5 extra points of effective melee def. Thats each tink. 2 bags of brass is the same as a whole suit of armor. To make it worse, armor is an IMBUE. 2 regular tinks (easy ones at that), vs. 10 successful imbues. It just doesnt do the trick. You havent added anything significant. You should have just tried going to +2 in addition to the formula change. Then you have a chance of making it worth the risk...at least for 'merely nice' armor with some minors possibly. You'd need +3 to +4 plus the formula change, OR making the modifier +1***%*** like it should have been in the first place in order for anyone to even *consider* messing with a AL214 W4 Major Coord Amuli Coat or similar. Even then...I'd still be too chicken, but I'd *think* about it. ;)


Edit: Oh, and I forgot the best part: The mob missle change. You did more than I dared hope you would do! I thought maybe you'd reduce the range and try that first, but you went the whole 9 yards! Excellent work, and Thank You.

[DaggerMan]

I think being able to debuff Weeping Weapons is a BAD idea. I almost can't believe you guys are implementing that into the game.

[Harzah]

Housing changes are great - it's just silly to have to add your other characters to your housing imo. Especially when you can only have one house per account anyway.

Re: the other changes, I can't speak to as I don't fully understand them (I just don't get formulas and stuff like that, it has nothing to do with how the LTTP was written, no worries :)).

[Sun Set Sam]

Is it possible to have a scaled down weeping weapon debuff. For example a lvl VII debuff would have equivalent 3 or 4 lvl debuff on the weeping weapon. If you have full debuffs running, you are sure to get a lot of negative responces from the pvp players as it would be a major shift in the current pvp balance. For the first time since the first year melee players had a viable chars in pvp. To take that away in one patch would greatly dishearten a large portion of the pvp players. Of course most pvp mage will be delighted, unless they realy want a competitive fight. I did see at least one mage on the vn board say it was a terrible idea to do weeping debuffs.
Which ever way it goes, you will get a lot of noise on this proposed change.

[Brader]

Guys, your allowing weeping weapons to be debuffed is a TERRIBLE idea. And I'm a MAGE on DT, so that should give you a hint how bad of an idea it is.

With the introduction of weeping weapons, we finally got a mixture of templates that were actually now viable in PvP.

Right now (pre-weeping nerf) you will see all kinds of templates running around thanks to their weeping weapons. Prior to weeping weapons, mages made up 90% of the high level characters on DT.

Now you are going to allow me to make my melee & archer opponents imotent with just one spell? And I don't even have to fish around for their weapon anymore..... just target the character & a couple seconds later they are blood loathered.

This one change alone will make PvP a mage only experience once again. Goodbye melee & archers on the battlefield.

It is a very bad move that you should rethink. You have overreacted to a few vocal mages that complained because they now actually could get killed by a melee or archer.

I reiterate: I'm a mage.

And the overwhelming consensous on DT right now is this: very bad idea.

[zhentist]

imbue armor or weapons with only 33% max chance is way to low with good items as the others had said. why take the chance to put melee +1 , on any armor worth waring for those who want 220+ armor with minors. maybe nice to imbue armor for newbees, or rerolls, but who rerolls now with skill sell back.
plus AC isn't sold any more in stores.
If you increased our chances of success. then mabe. i failed 27 times so far trying to make 1 rendering weapon with a skill 410 buffed. not high but still 27 bags of red garnet , expensive in the game and hard to come by. i even asked some 126 level guy with very high tinking to try 3 times and they failed. it's cheaper to buy in marketplace for high prices but in long run too hard and not worth the chance.
I'm still hoping on the relocating mansions to towns idea. mabe next year.
still love the game, many hour into it 15 characters 3 computers all level 40-65 now 4 years of off and on enjoyment. thanks guy i look forword to all updates.

[Flynn]

I have to agree with Yew on this one; the change to the armor imbue really isn't enough. With melee defense of 400 and a +25% to defense weapon, and a full set of 9 imbued armor pieces, previously I'd get effectively 509 melee defense. Now I'd get 511. That's still not even slightly worth blowing up some armor.

Love the housing changes though, but when are we going to have all chars able to remove objects from hooks, or add them? Even other accounts, such as any char with chest permissions?

[Jin Saotome]

Erm....ok....I guess this is the Mage-Love for PvP. Melee vs Mage will no longer an option. Mages will rule once more, why?

The mage will have a higher item skill than the melee's magic def, therefore the weapon WILL get debuffed.

What can be done to a weeping wand? Lower it's mana conversion bonus??? LOL! That's about it. And that's if the melee can actually land the spell without getting resisted.

Can't we just take out the stone, and put the stone back in to revert our weapon? I know doing this refills the mana in my Isparian, and gets rid of any enchgantements on it, since it's initally a "newly-created" weapon.


I don't risk imbuing armor in the first place, so I don't have much to say about the changes in that. Why risk blowing up your armor for a couple points of melee/missile def? Magic def I could see, yes. People spend lots of exp on magic def!

[Force of Will]

Hello this is the very first time I have ever posted on one of your forums.

But I feel this could not be ignored.

What in the heck fire are you all thinking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Weeping weapons are the only thing that has made PvP even close to balanced and your going to nerf it????
Most people agree that melee's now have a chance against us mages and your going to take it away??
I cannot fathom what would make you think of such a silly idea.

Melee's can finally do more than 0-15 points of damge on us.
Now the only thing they have ever been able to really hurt us with is now debuffable? I can now BL7 their weeping weapon and it's back to goose eggs?

Any way I just wanted to be one more voice so you can't say it was a smal outcry.

Oh and btw did you ACTUALLY test this?????????

Peace,
Will

[Graybeard]

Missile Def mod changes are great, a little late perhaps :P but better than not at all.

Weeping weapon nerfs, no opinion as I don't PvP.

Housing changes, a great start, but yet not far enough IMO. I'd like to see a change where the owner of a particular residence can use a command something like " /permit <<name>> house recall.

This will be useful for those who have multiple accounts (such as I do) and their residences are on opposite ends of Dereth and need to retrieve an item left in storage of the other account.

***Someone will probably suggest drop muling or dual logging. For many reasons the former isn's safe, and the latter isn't always an available option***


Just my 2 pyreals worth.

Gray :) :)

[Mekta]

I appreciate and thank you for making the weeping weapons hookable....

The house changes are also a very usefull change.

Thanks for your effort in keeping the game fun

[Paraduck]

I agree with the previous Weeping Weapon comments here. Their goal was to make PvP fighters quicker and more fun... they did a good job at that. Making them unenchantable will ruin a lot of this -- and hurt archers even more. If the damage for melees is a concern, I think many would perfer a small nerf rather than having them debuffable. I was personally surprised at the human slayer buff to melee Weepings. It wasn't broke before, and I think this change will hurt the original intent of these weapons.

IMO, this is a topic you should have gotten player feedback on as well -- it's generally good to do these on PvP topics in advance.

[pacesetter]

someone straighten me out here:

weeping weapons are now buffable as well as de-buffs.

they buff it, we de-buff it. weapon is same same as it is now?

are we forcing high magic d on melees and archers?


love the housing changes.

won't abuse my armor for the melee +, will go for steel.
how bout making jewelry able to use the imbues for melee, magic d etc ???


critter missile attacks, this will help lower levels (< 80) but for the higher levels it takes away the suspense of not knowing what the baddie is gonna do. for instance: 3 lugies, one can't hit, one does hit but not bad, one better be the first to die cause he hurts !

harbinger quest: YAYYYYY! should bring this one out of the closet.

[Paraduck]

Originally posted by pacesetter
someone straighten me out here:

weeping weapons are now buffable as well as de-buffs.

they buff it, we de-buff it. weapon is same same as it is now?

are we forcing high magic d on melees and archers?

No, the debuffs will make the weapon worse than they are now. I'm not saying the Weepings are bad -- they're quite good -- but the damage will be less when debuffed. Beneficial spells will have no effect on Weepings since the built-in spells will override them. This essentially forces high magic d and goes against the goals of the weapons (see my other post.)

[HeXt]

So wait... if someone doesn't have lore trained at all, and they equip one of these weapons... and get it buffed, they will have higher damage? wtf?

[Brader]

Hext... the built in spells on the weapons are much more damaging in PvP (which is the intent of the weapons after all) then any beneficial spell, or combination of spells you could ever cast on it.

The only difference is now their opponent will bloodloather it immediatly. And they will once again be back to being virtually useless against a mage.

[Kieoto]

I like this, but if the imbue was attemptable more than once per piece of armor, would be risky sure but the results would be much better

[Trai]

I wouldn't make any of the current unenchantable weapons debuffable until players are once again forced to actually select a weapon (rather than just the player) to debuff it.

Targetting a player and casting blood loather on someone's weapon is entirely too easy and too detrimental to a meleer or an archer.

[HeXt]

I'm beginning to wonder if they thought of the fact that if they are buffable once they are OUT OF MANA/non active, that they can be buffed with 7's and they will own everything in sight....



This could be bad for that reason as well.

[Virindi Clown]

All good ideas except...

DEBUFFABLE WEEPING WEAPONS IS MURDER!

You kill archers FOR GOOD! They already suck in PvP and EVERYONE talks about it on the PvP forums!

They can't stop people from evading them except on high accuracy, and they can't land in the first place because everyone wiggles, so now they have NO DAMAGE?!?!?

Every mage will just run around and cast blood loather first thing! What do you do to mages? Debuff their mana con?

That doesn't do anything! That just destroys it! That is completely outrageous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Yew Wan Sum]

The problem is that there is no equivalent way to debuff a mage's wand. With this change, melees and archers get slammed, but mages are unaffected. Now if you could cast an ITEM spell that reduced the damage output from a wand by 50-90%, THEN this wouldnt be so completely lopsided. Even then, carrying around a pack of wands isnt going to break anyone's back, but OMG, the poor xbow people are SCREWED.

[Brader]

Yew.. the problem with that is if you start reducing damage everyone does, nobody is ever going to die.

300-400 HP people taking 100 hp, or even 150 hits from war just won't cut it anymore. Its to easy to dodge as it is, its to easy to heal, stamina to health....etc.

It would just become a huge excercise in futility.

[Yew Wan Sum]

My point was the interruption in balanace, not the stalemate aspect. You want stalemate? Try melee vs. melee with a hollow or (soon) debuffed weeping. You want stalemate? Try two archers with missle def, no matter what weapon they use.

Yes, there is a definate stalemate problem, but my primary concern is the inequality. Reducing melee and archer damage by 75% or more without also reducing mage damage creates a huge imbalance. It places additional resource and tactical burden on the melee and archer, without altering anything about the mage. That, is a direct nerf. Imagine it the other way. Suppose Turbine introduces a new Item spell that takes away 50-75% of war damage and *doesnt* make weeping weapons debuffable, but *does* make wands(loot and weeping) debuffable. Now where's the fairness in that? If you are going to do a severe direct nerf, it better apply across the board.

[Asper]

Housing changes are welcome; it's always seemed a bit silly that the ownership privileges and functions did not carry equally to all characters on the same account.

It just needs the final step which is to give the other characters access to hooks.

[Lilkinsly]

The Missile Def changes are a good and welcome change. Thx.

The Armor Imbue is simply not enough. It is still not worth risking blowing up good armor for. IMO all that really needs done for thes Imbues is to make their % like a normal tink (100% with enough skill) yet limit them to 1 per piece of armor like an Imbue. Now you choose to use Steel or do another Imbue. No gambling. Then it would be worth it.

The Weeping weapon changes. Well I am hoping that you guys have something else planned for this patch that you did not post in the LTTP. Something that will balance out this change. Sure in a Group fight, melee is the best but this change in the LTTP is NOT the answer.

You pretty much neuter Melee and Archers in one on one fights. This will leave many people who PKL casually with a bad taste in their mouth.

Things were the closest to balanced they have ever been, and now this. I do not understand why.

[FeralthioMT]

This weeping weapon thing sounds really bad. Its good the way it is right now. Just make a few changes in the missle code and maybe up the dmg for archers and it will be good. Also change the radar back or change it back and make the colors just brighter.

[Virindi Clown]

Lilkinsly's last comment is what I always wonder with these things.

It's along the same lines of making tinkering, giving the ability to make weapons ignore some armor, and armor to be made better, and then giving mages the imbues too, AND increasing their power after that.

Why must things like that go on and on without an end?

Archers are just continually screwed over more and more! It COMPLETELY ruins the balance because it turns into a mage vs melee balance battle!

Mages and melees work entirely differently. They CANNOT be completely balanced.

Balance comes in a circular fashion. Archers must be viable. Then it doesn't matter how hard ANYONE hits because they all work differently.

This is not even a question of how unfair it is that a mage can debuff a melee or an archer but they cannot debuff them back in the same manner.

It is a matter of ruining the ability of an archer altogether, removing another character type for good in every respect, and leaving a widening hole in the PvP balance of AC.

[AzulDrakkon]

Anti weeping changes I feel no need to repost here as on PK board I have stated my case numerous times...PLEASE attempt to look into something else...this isn't the way to BALANCE pk...pk was unbalanced when mages debuffed my AR...much less now that our weapon can be AUTOTARGETED BY CLICKING THE CHARACTER ITSELF...think a little bit, have an admin fight on darktide or solclaim or somewhere where its actually laggy and you can get an IG feel.

[Aluvious]

wtf mages can easily vuln our weapon to reduce our damage yet what is a melee's advantage to debuffing a Mana C on a wand. and on top of that, it is not possible to debuff a warspell if you know what i mean. just my 2 cents.

[srand]

I told Ibn he needed to be more explicit about the MeleeD armor imbue. *shake head*

It's implied in the LttP but perhaps not stated clearly enough: we aren't expecting this relatively minor change to make the imbue suddenly worthwhile, but it did seem like a nice minor tweak while we work out exactly how we want to improve all three armor imbues overall.

[Paraduck]

What about Weeping Weapon changes? Is there a chance that it'll be pulled out of the December update once you all discuss it?

[Virindi Clown]

It had best be. Seeing as this is player feedback and we all hate even the idea of it.

[Graybeard]

I have read every post in this thread with interest. Even though I do not PvP (hopefully my opinion still means something anyhow), I can definitely see the furor that nerfing weeping weapons would bring. From all that I have seen so far, This is a step that should NOT be taken at all.

Personally, I think that while Turbine's intent was/is fine, it is (at the very least) ill-timed. I submit the weeping nerfs should be removed from this month's patch while there is still time to do so without having to chance a hotfix/rollback after the patch goes live.


Gray

[HeXt]

Actually that's ok, it will add variety to PVP again in terms of weaponry...

[Graybeard]

Mike,

Variety is fine, but, if this goes as general consensus has it, it will create a bigger imbalance between the different character type.


Gray

[Circeus]

Since there's such a reaching negative response about the debuffable WW change, perhaps we could hear the justification behind the change???

It'd be nice to know the line of thinking so maybe we, the players, could suggest something else.

[Rebel Yell]

Thats a small improvement for Melee Def mods however what about Magic and Missle Def. They get no luv :confused:

[LordShadowz]

I think allowing the Weeping Weapons to be Debuffed is WRONG and should be taken out of the December update.

I don't understand the reasoning behind it at all but it seriously Nerfs all melee's and Archers while it does nothing but Make mages much stronger.

Hell I still think the way the weeping weapons are too weak as they are. I get hit for 200 from a mage, while my UA scratches him for 30 points after I have vulned and Imperiled..

I think this nerf is wrong in every aspect. Please reconsider this change. Also I would like to see an explanation behind the changes you say your making to the weeping weapons in the LTTP.

Thanks,

[Idhitit]

I'm a bit upset in regards to the changes being made to weeping weapons. It seems to again put melees and archers at a disadvantage to mages, because being able to debuff weeping weapons does not have any real effect on weeping wands (ohh wow! we can now debuff the mana conversion mod, what will the poor mage with 600 mana ever do?). I'm not sure why this change is even needed, was there some outcry that weeping weapons need to be debuffable? Anyway, I really hope this change is reversed in the coming months, as I see no reason for it other than to further disadvantage melees and archers in player versus player combat.

[AzulDrakkon]

Admins, could you throw us a bone on weepings here...I mean I know how many people want to know more about the armor imbues but I'd like to see something about weepings and I'm sure the rest of the PvPers would agree.

[stirfry213]

I don't play anymore, however, debuffing weeping weapons is a VERY VERY VERY VERY bad idea.

Now, consider this, make a special spell that lasts only 15-30 secs maybe, and have a recharge timer of like 2-3mins. This would be usefull for crowd control in group situations, and might even involve some team work, but it would not be that bad of an effect. This is probably not in the "tech" as turbine always says. But this is the only way something like this would work.

If you allow a 4 min debuff on any weeping weapon, you are just killing any melee/missle character out there. Well, unless of course you come up with a spell that can actually effect a mages damage.

[Perseous]

I cant even think of why??? You would do that to weeping weapons:mad: . I play an archer and its hard enough to kill a mage as it is. Melees we go head to head and is a good fight, but melees wont debuff your weapon, they like to fight it out. PLEASE Re-think this out....

[Darktider]

I am dumbfounded by the announcment that weeping weapons will become debuffable...I have been behind every change made to this game for 3 years...but this? It is shocking that you would even consider it.

I have never experienced what I'm feeling right now about AC...a sinking in my gut.

People loathering weapons was always bogus...I thought that was why WW were made unenchantable.

Why do this?

[Hellbound]

Ummn! I really hope you reconsider the planned changes to weeping wepons!

If the changes are done as we think, I'm pretty sure a lot of meeles/missile'ers will TC they're weepings :(

I sure will TC my weeping if this goes in... a lvl VII debuff will make the weeping totally useless, and non-mages will flee the PK scene.. (me thinks)..

HB

[sylphia]

OK, I read the LTTP the day it was posted, and to be frank, I about flipped when I saw the part about the Weeping Weapons. I have done you the courtesy of waiting a couple days until I cooled off before posting about it.

First, I have been playing AC since retail (that's about 4 years now), and I have played mages the majority of the time. I am not big on PK, but I do play it from time to time, more often since PKL came out. Most of the changes you make in the game, I couldnt care less how they affect PK, as opposed to the impact it has on those of us who chose not to PK. However, the WW's are pretty much an exclusive PK-ting (I mean, who goes out and does the quest just so they can kill bandits faster on ML?). And I have to say, someone in the development department has has the biggest brain-fart in the history of the game.

I have listened to melee's absolutely WHINE for 4 years about how mages are "broken" and do "too much damage", never minding the fact that we spend way more skill credits for our damage. However, one thing that even I can see is that the challenge to kill a mage has always been much higher than for a mage to kill a melee. Thats the whole reason yo uhosed us by introducing Hollow wpns and mobs in the first place, then later Phantom wpns and mobs. FINALLY, you have struck on a weapon that actually does the job. It offers a melee a rasonable chance of killing a mage, without going overboard. A mage actually DOES have to fear getting smacked by a WW in the hands of a comparable lvl melee.

Now you want to make the weapons debuffable? C'mon guys, where are your heads? THINK!! Why did you go through all the trouble of introducing these wpeaons, and getting their damages so finely balanced, wpn vs skill vs cost to use, etc. if you are just going to chuck it all down the toilet now? Forget the fact that melees have no way of reducing a mage's damage by debuffing our wands. Forget the fact that we are GOING to land our debuff on the wpn pretty much every time due to our much higer skill vs their resistance. Forget the fact that even if the melees DID have a chance to return the favor, we would likely resist their attempts, and have them dead before BL-ing their wpn even became an issue. Put all of that aside and just look at the fact that WHEN the spell lands, it is going to scrape 22 points of damage right off the weapon itself. 22 points, folks. Thats enough to cripple the poor guy to the point where he may as well just @die and be done with it.

Sure, there are some "tricks" to avoid the debuffs, but PvP is already full of tricks and cheats as it is; you dont need to encourage the players to do even more.

You folks seem to have the annoying habit of always wanting to play with something you have introduced. Thats fine for things that ARENT working or arent worth the effort (mansions, armor imbues), but when you get something RIGHT, for the love of god leave it alone! You are about to ruin a nice addition to the game. If you make this change, you will then have to be loking for a way to reduce the damage a mage can do in PvP to rebalnce it again, cos i GUARANTEE that anyone who hasnt been paying attention to the announcement WILL be on the boards after the patch complaining about it. The only ones who will LIKE it are the grief-playing mages. My god, when even the mage sin the community are complaining about a change that essentially makes them STRONGER in PvP, you should be able to see that this is a mistake. I cant believe that you guys would even have suggested, much less consider this. Fire that person. Period.

Positive note: housing changes are good. Took too long to get there, but at least you are finally doing it. Now move all the housing units "underground" like the apartments are, to reduce the surface lag, and you wil lhave something. And before anyone flames on this, the portal rings should lead to the "underground" settlements, and the signpost in the middle of the settelement shoudl be clickable to port to the spot on the surface where the port USED to lead...thus allowing us to still use it for the shortcuts we do now, while removing some of that lag from the surface world. Just create a fake backdrop for the settelemtn in its little pocket so it looks like sky around :) Also, we should be able to access ALL of our housing features from any toon on that account. This includes adding or removing ppl from our lists, and being able to add or remove items on our hooks with any toon on that account. You have already adrssed the posible issue of transferring items that are supposed to be toon-unique from one to the other via the house, so just make the change.


Armor Imbue changes. Nowhere NEAR enough to make it balanced vs the risk involved. At least Srand finally came forward and said this is just a bone you are throwing us while you try and decide what kind of fix to actually make. For reference, here is the thread on your other main board, which details many of our suggestions. Ibn has done a good job of playing messemger on these, but I would like to keep them in the front of your memory :)

http://www.accmty.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=50600&sessionID=F26FF78CA3ED4345986143819826DACE

My suggestions in that thread for possible imporvements still stand; just ignore the part where i had +1 and +1% confused on them :)

Lastly: Changes to Critter Missile Def and the Harbinger quest are good. Too bad the WW stuff is overshadowing it all and making it go pretty much unnoticed....

[Ibn]

Regarding the Armor Imbue changes, from the LttP:

In addition, we are currently considering other changes that would improve the performance of all three Armor Imbues.

When you say, "This isn't enough!" we might agree with you. It just needs more looking at.

I'll get more info on the reasons behind the weeping change and post it here when I have it.

[cindel]

Melee Defense Imbue
Junk

Creature Missile Attacks
Ok

Housing Changes
should have been done on day 1, better lat than never.

Weeping Weapons
Dumest thing I have herd of yet. Really it is.

The Harbinger Quest
Nice, but isnt there things that are need more than this?

[Maraudir]

Debuffing the weeping weapon is a complete joke, unless you add a debuff equal to that for mages.

[sylphia]

Adding a debuff for mages defeats the purpose of the weeping weapons. There shouldnt be a debuff at all. If we constantly reduce the damage done, then we end up in a downward spiral, with 2-hour PK fights where no one dies, cos they cant do enough damage to kill one another. The solution is not to add the debuff in the first place. The weepoing weapons work fine as is. There is a saying: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. There is no reason to add a debuff to mage damage for "balance" if you dont allow a debuff for melee weapons in the first place.

[AzulDrakkon]

Well I admit you guys may have your reasons why but now there are many reasons why not...I just want you guys to consider this before you do it

[SiR]

debuff on WWs? WHY disable an archers only chance to get a kill?

[edit]

Please don't change the weeping weapons... the housing stuff great.... the missile on mob stuff great thanks for it but please leave the ww's alone

[Half Elf]

Firstly, let me say I like the updates to all the dungeouns related to the alloy machine. There is so much space in game that is disused due to the age of the reward in the dungeoun, the rate of the spawn, or the content of said spawn. There are many many more places that could benefit from the same kind of updating. Even though my beloved beloved Mt. Naipenset was adjusted and struck a rather strange chord in my heart to see such an old favorite tweaked, after a few minutes of seeing the change, I approve wholeheartedly.

Ok with that said, tweaks to melee D imbue = good
what about the magic D imbue?

Housing tweaks = Good, but that just minor change to chat notification.

Creature missle attacks = Umm, please remove some of the hollow rocks that the lugians throw before doing this, that way if you find that this is an unbalancing tweak (with regard to hollow rocks) then at least players can bane against some of the more outrageous effects while waiting for adjustment in the next patch.

Weeping Weapons = Good! I keep getting ripped to shreds as a mage whenever a weeping weap is used against me without much chance to fight back besides healing fast and running. I haven't been able to break into the pk scene because of this. Mage vs. Mage is fun for me but Mage vs. Melee is Doomfest. I don't want to hear Melees whining either because most of you "Melee" PK'ers lead with a vuln anyways...

Harbringer Quest change = Good, allowing your high lvl patron to help you is always good, but to be honest I have yet to be able to take advantage of this quest because it seems very involved and time consuming...

These sort of changes are always good, more tweaks to existing content please. Especially the BSD, please decrease the spawn timer to 2 minutes instead of 5 minutes so it can actually be a viable hunting ground again.

[Paraduck]

Yes, Melee VS Mage is a doomfest... for both. It's balanced. Buff the missile weapons and leave it. If something must be nerfed, slighly lower the human slayer bonus.

[Perseous]

This will be the worst update EVER!.... Archers only have two weapons they can use with increased damage!! Blade and Pierce arrows!! Why do they not let the other arrows use the same damage!

Also, how many mages spec melee D or have it trained???? NONE! Why is that.... i know why because melee trained to a mages does WHAT SQUAT!!!!!!! NADA!!!!!....... BUTTTTT missle is so effective for mages when they dont even bother to change there starting stats to make it more effective.... hell i'll just train it and that archer will have to go half power to even hit me....LOL not even close up can they hit me LOL!!!

I am so tired of mages saying, man you suck all u do is run.... well what else can i do.... can i scrafe and heal????? No my guy has to stop and then heal with 000000000 movement, so should i take 150+ war to the face, and say ok i'll stand in the same spot as he just BLAMMMMED!!! me and heal!!!! !!!!!!DAAAAA DORK I GOTTA RUN!!!!

Dont get me wrong i am not saying playing a mage is easy... i have played them, u must have skill to be good, but to an archers prospective all this just plain takes the wind out of my sails!

Things to make the PVP better IMO!

1) They need to allow the other arrows to have same base damage as pierce and blade!
2) They have to find away to get the attack bonus on the arrows to nerf missle d!!! Why cant they let the archers Heart Seeker a bundle of arrows... something they have to do something!
3) They have to allow melee's to heal and scrafe at the same time...

Just to name a few......


Zreckster!!!!
Mad At Ac 4 Life!

[Perseous]

I can get past the Blood loather but the not being able to add attack to the arrow and having mages train missle d and be so effective is whats driving me crazy!!!..

IMO why cant i get the same results in my magic d... granted its not a trained skill but i also donated plenty of starting stats so that i could cast spells well further down the road... but i ask when will my resist ever be effective againest a mage!....... CAN WE ALL SAY NEVER.... But any character starting @ 10 cord & 10 quick, later in levels will nerf any, & all bow character's with there simple trained skill of missle d..... its flat out wrong!

I am getting off the subject i know!!!! Sorry!

Zreckster!!!

[Erik Armadus]

Although several others have already expressed their view which is simliar to mine - I just wanted to put in my two cents here as well. For me and several other people I know PKL has been a pleasant breath of fresh air into our AC world and for that I am greatful.

I have been playing AC for more than 3 1/2 years and for me, the idea of allowing weeping weapons to be debuffed defies logic. My main is a melee (126) but I also have a secondary mage character (113) and I can tell you without question that this "tweak" will destroy any chance that a melee has against any opponent. I find it a challenge to win in a fight as a melee at the best of times but I do like the fact that I can give people a scare at least if nothing else. I believe that once the weapons are debuffable the only thing I will be scaring are the poor little noobs at my mansion that I will forced to take my frustration out on. ;)

I believe a previous poster said it best when they said - if it ain't broke don't fix it. So please Turbine hear the call - the call of the Melee and Archer PKs out in AC land that want to remain competitive. Do the right thing and do not put this "tweak" in.

[AzulDrakkon]

Yeah it really kills me to hear mages whine about being ripped to shreds albeit without shards they'll do 200+ and 265+ crits to our 30s, and melees....30s now? (haven't pked on axer since changes) seeing as I get one shot alot and I'm a "seasoned player killer"...oddly enough criticals for mages are frequent with weeping...so yay. meanwhile everyone else gets nerfed and they whine that they weren't nerfed enough...I subcatergorize these mages as "whiners" whereas quite a few mages don't mind a challenge these select few want no other class to compare in any aspect of the game....don't believe me? how many mages have you heard whine about PvM in vod even though they can't accept the fact that not everything has 10,000 health and they can vuln much easier than any class out there...and btw side note, their resistance rending weapons actually work in pvp halfway effectively

[Half Elf]

Balancing Weeping Weaps will be difficult. It's like balancing the Hollow weapons? What viability are those in PK anymore?
Can you positivly buff Weepings now? like with BD, SK, HS, and DF? I just got an isparian and it seems to me you can't buff that thing... Maybe the other buffs will add to your Meleeness and if you've ever tried to select an isparian while someone is swinging it on you, you know that landing the Blood Loather will probably be the only spell the mage gets off before the lifestone.

I think that given the circumstances, change will add excitement to PK if nothing else. A New tactic to try for a month until the next weapon, quest or trinket comes out to distract people.

[sylphia]

There is no attempt to target a weapon for blood-loather anymore. Positive and negative spells on weapons, shields, and casting items can now be cast on your target simply by targeting the person or mob. This was changed a couple months ago, about the same time that they made the spells resistable.

It will be as easy to land a BL on a melee's weeping weapon as it is to land a vuln on the player himself, both in terms of targeting, and of resistance. Mages already have a large advantage in PK, but making WW debuffable will remove the only really effective balance that has been added to PK to make melees have a chance against mages. I have been hit by sword and ua WW's, and they hit hard enough to make me think twice about letting them stay too close to me while I am trying to power up for my next LVL 7 spell. Take away this extra damage, and its back to the old days of simply ignoring the melee's damage while I chuck a couple of bolts at him.

I would love to see some improvements to mages, but not at the expense of an effective nerf to my melee and archer brethren. This is unfair. I can only hope that Turbine is taking this outcry about the change seriously, because it's pretty obvious the majority of the players don't want it.

[Virindi Clown]

There is no reason to decrease damage until spin jump is 100% fixed. At the moment, it is 0% fixed.

When people can do it infinitely just by hitting ~ when they jump, there is no reason to even go on with other balance issues.

Even if melees really did hit too hard, they deserve it for all the retards that spin jump non stop and then god mode elixirs. Like people don't use that in fights to just start themselves over and jump right back in when the melee is probably at a disadvantage?

Heck, that stuff doesn't even really matter. Why in the world do you want archers to die off completely?

I fought an archer yesterday, and he hit me for 37 and 38. I evaded a third shot WITHOUT MISSILE DEFENSE and got him to half health at that point because he was trying to attack someone else at first, and I had been hitting on full power while he did that. At that time, he turned to run away.
I crit him on speed for 61 and killed him when he ran. We wear both wearing sharded gsa, so you can compare the damage proportionally in this case. I did not have slash ward, and he was shooting me with slashing arrows, and he didn't seem to have slash or pierce ward himself.

Bows used to do more than sword power hits. Lets assume he could do 40 damage. That means his crit is 80 on me. And mine is 61 on SPEED? He does like 30-40, and I do 15-30? That's not a lot of difference.

So now archers will get even more of their damage taken away? What will that leave them with when their modifier comes at the end of the damage equation and multiplies it when they have -22 damage?

You can evade archers decently enough when they use full speed without missile defense trained. To people with it trained, archers are very little of a threat, and most people on DT do have it trained. Mages can just wiggle and make every shot miss.

There are all these problems stacking up, and the next move is to just DECREASE damage for the already worthless archers and the melees who just now, after 4 years of being the weakest characters, have balanced out?

[Northstar]

Hmmm ok as per the LttP:


(buffed melee defense * buffed weapon modifier) + Armor Imbue

After the December event, it will look more like this:

(buffed melee defense + Armor Imbue) * buffed weapon modifier


So that means it was (430 x 130%) + 9 [using 9 pieces of armour] = 568 effective Melee D.

Changing to (430 + 9) x 130% = 570.7 effective Melee D.

Honestly, I find that change hardly worth it, like all the other posters and while I like a lot of the ideas presented before I would propose one of my own.

1) Keep the armour imbue the way it is at 33%.

2) Change the value to +10 [equal to moderate Cantrip] and let it stack.

3) Restrict it to only being able to wield one imbued melee item per character at one time, and for chuckles and grins you can put a base melee req on it as well...your choice.

This would result in the following:

(430 +10) x 130% = 572 effective Melee D.

Only 1.3 points higher then your example, however only need to blow up one piece of armour and still maintain the current 1 in 3 chance of landing the imbue at best.

Expecting people to blow up numerous items is just not going to happen ....step back and think about it.


Weeping weapons....simple enough.....don't touch them, you have a clear concensus, no need to beat the poor carcass anymore.

Housing , Critter missile and Harbinger......well done and about time:confused:

Best I could do on short notice and at work ;-)

North

[pacesetter]

k ive seen several posts blasting mages and mages can train everything across the boards and we can do item as easy as life and mages whine and all bout mages this and that.


c'mon !

mages get the SAME amount of credits you do.

my mage is NOT strictly PK. war life and critter are spec item trained. mana c trained leader and arcane round it out.

magic d is a gimme yes i would train it if otherwise cause the baddies i fight use magic. ( CLUE HERE !! SPEC MAGIC D ! )

war life and critter buff to 412-415 item buffs to 368. you DO have more chance to resist a loather!

mages DO take alot of damage. melees are much harder to fight and give crits that cause us to break off the attack to heal. and do not start on how much you hafta heal i cause the damage, I know. the thing is we are balanced. we have what you do not have and you have what we do not have. the topic here is do we want weeping weaps enchantable or not.

archers were nerfed bad when they "fixed" the distance variable. My archer got it too! do you think we play mages only??

most of us have several different chars and use different weaps so we know what you face as we face the SAME problems.

quit your whining and build a viable char.

stick to the issues and come up with something the devs can actually use.

if you would even bother to read all the posts you would know that the mages posting here do not want this either, even to their detriment.

if whining is what ya want to do go to the VN boards. these boards are here so we can interact with the devs and come to viable solutions.

you can help here or maybe cause us to lose these boards and not have this chance to have input into the game.

[Brader]

IBN, you had mentioned that you would get back to us on the Turbines thinking on why you felt the change to weeping weapons was necessary.

Any progress on that yet? Because as you can see, the majority of people are, at a minimum, perplexed on the reasoning for behind this.

Thanks.

[Ashanor]

Changeing the Weeping Weapons is the worst idea I have ever heard of. Melee finally have a decent chance to kill a mage and you nerf it. After 4 years of being mages red headed step child. I don't understand why you are doing this. I can tell you one thing though. It's enough to push me away from AC for good. Time to wait for World of Warcraft beta. Thanks Turbine.

[Ibn]

Originally posted by Brader
IBN, you had mentioned that you would get back to us on the Turbines thinking on why you felt the change to weeping weapons was necessary.
Any progress on that yet? Because as you can see, the majority of people are, at a minimum, perplexed on the reasoning for behind this.


I've actually decided to go above and beyond and try to get something else explaining our goals for PvP combat in general. Which may take a little longer, but will be all the more enlightening.

Regarding these changes, the short answer is that we feel they will increase the diversity of PvP as well as make player skill a greater factor and make group combat less melee-centric.

[AzulDrakkon]

I don't remember bloodloathering an enemies weapon and rending him useless being called skill.

And diversity?...What more diverse mages?..I go to sub and I'm lucky if in a 10 person gank theres one archer although there are a few melees to "catch" the unlucky recallers...this will make pvp revert to mage only. You're not even looking into it it appears, you're just forcing unbaned mage dominance on us again.

...perhaps I will find a 98% mod 4 damage modifer bow useful for killing baby bunnies, although it might take a few shots.

[Paraduck]

Originally posted by Ibn
I've actually decided to go above and beyond and try to get something else explaining our goals for PvP combat in general. Which may take a little longer, but will be all the more enlightening.

Regarding these changes, the short answer is that we feel they will increase the diversity of PvP as well as make player skill a greater factor and make group combat less melee-centric.

I'm definitely going to be interested in this. If having everyone specing magic d is the idea of diversity, then I guess that works. I'm already collecting gems to switch over to a mage, heh. I don't think this is requiring more skill at all -- unless you mean a player's magic defense or ganking skill. I'm definitely not convinced that this is the right way to go, but hopefully the full article will enlighten and sway the large amount of players that are opposed to this change.

[Brader]

Originally posted by Ibn
I've actually decided to go above and beyond and try to get something else explaining our goals for PvP combat in general. Which may take a little longer, but will be all the more enlightening.

Regarding these changes, the short answer is that we feel they will increase the diversity of PvP as well as make player skill a greater factor and make group combat less melee-centric.

Diversity? What, so we can have 90% mages on DT once again? And I must say, I'm confused why you would even ask for feedback then when the feedback you get is so negative and you proceed anyways.

I'm sure I don't have to tell you what kind of feedback you have recieved on these proposed changes. They are right in this very thread, and a poll that had more then 230 casting their vote at VN.

And the almost unanimous response from both Mages & Melees alike has been that is isn't a good idea.. and that is putting it politely.

Why ask for feedback, see that your customers are extremely vocal against your proposed chages, and proceed anyways?

[Brader]

In the interest of simplicity, and easy reading, here is a snipet of the feedback you asked for. Each & everyone of these snippets come from different posts, on this very thread, in response to you asking for feedback. It does offer a nice summary of the feedback you are getting (and ignoring)

Is this a case of "We know what our customers want, better then what our own customers tell us they want"? You be the judge................
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I think being able to debuff Weeping Weapons is a BAD idea. I almost can't believe you guys are implementing that into the game."

"For the first time since the first year melee players had a viable chars in pvp. To take that away in one patch would greatly dishearten a large portion of the pvp players"

"Guys, your allowing weeping weapons to be debuffed is a TERRIBLE idea."

"Melee vs Mage will no longer an option. Mages will rule once more, why?"

"I cannot fathom what would make you think of such a silly idea."

"It wasn't broke before, and I think this change will hurt the original intent of these weapons."

"Targetting a player and casting blood loather on someone's weapon is entirely too easy and too detrimental to a meleer or an archer."

"DEBUFFABLE WEEPING WEAPONS IS MURDER!"

"With this change, melees and archers get slammed, but mages are unaffected"

"You pretty much neuter Melee and Archers in one on one fights"

"This weeping weapon thing sounds really bad."

"PLEASE attempt to look into something else...this isn't the way to BALANCE pk"

"wtf mages can easily vuln our weapon to reduce our damage yet what is a melee's advantage to debuffing a Mana C on a wand."

"From all that I have seen so far, This is a step that should NOT be taken at all."

"I think allowing the Weeping Weapons to be Debuffed is WRONG and should be taken out of the December update."

"I'm a bit upset in regards to the changes being made to weeping weapons."

"I don't play anymore, however, debuffing weeping weapons is a VERY VERY VERY VERY bad idea."

"PLEASE Re-think this out...."

"I am dumbfounded by the announcment that weeping weapons will become debuffable"

"a lvl VII debuff will make the weeping totally useless, and non-mages will flee the PK scene"

"C'mon guys, where are your heads? THINK!!"

"Weeping Weapons (changes): Dumest thing I have herd of yet. Really it is."

"Debuffing the weeping weapon is a complete joke"

"The weepoing weapons work fine as is. There is a saying: If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

"Please don't change the weeping weapons"

"This will be the worst update EVER!"

"Do the right thing and do not put this "tweak" in"

"it's pretty obvious the majority of the players don't want it (weeping changes)."

"Weeping weapons....simple enough.....don't touch them, you have a clear concensus"

[Brader]

And then we have the poll from VN (that appears to be ignored as well)

Summary is this: 17% think it's a good idea. 65% Think it's a bad idea. And the rest don't give a hoot.

By my math, this is a 4 to 1 landslide.

Poll Question: December Lttp: Weeping Changes
Total Votes: 235

Current Poll Results:
15%
Fantastic idea! Can't wait! (37 votes)
2%
Good idea. I like it. (5 votes)
15%
Don't care. (37 votes)
1%
Bad idea, don't like it. (3 votes)
64%
Horrible idea. What were they thinking? (151 votes)
0%
Other (Please explain) (2 votes)

This poll is currently closed.

[sylphia]

Ibn, I can appreciate that you are pretty much just the messenger here; thats part of your job as the liason, so I wont shoot you. But your last post distrubs me. I get the distinct impression that Turbine plans to go ahead with this change to WW anyway, despite the overwhelming negative rsponse. More to the point, it feels as if what we are saying is going to be ignored. This WILL NOT add more diversity or skill to the PvP scene. All it will do is to cripple the damage potential of melees across the board; not just SOME of them, but ALL of them. There is no skill involved in landing a blood-loather on a weapon that you dont even have to target. The WW is the only one in the game that I truly fear in the hands of a melee. Anything else is rendered pretty much useless by a combination of armor, spells, and the ability to debuff the weapon itself.

Now, if the weapon buffs on a WW stacked with normal spells, it would at least offer some kind of balance to the debuff that wil now be able to be placed on it. But why go through all that trouble when you could just leave it alone and have essentially the same effect?

Man I love playing mages, and I love winning, just like everyone else. But there isnt much fun to a win that has no challenge to it. This is a game-breaking change for melees in PvP. I cant beleive that the boys who make the decisions in the Turbine think-tank cant see this, especially with this overwhelming cry AGAINST the change. Sure, we only reoresent a fraction of the population of AC as a whole, but if you run aprojection against the entire population, you are looking at thousands of ppl that would be against this if they took the time to post.

I have been given the impression that our feedback isnt being paid any attention to anyway, so why should they even bother to post their opinions? I know YOU are reading and listening, but you have GOT to make the rest of the devs understand that we really do NOT want this. If you do this, you may as well take the WW for melees out of the game. And whats more, mages will still be receiving their full slayer bonus. What are you going to do, nerf the slayer bonus on that specifically? Then why bother with all the balancing that the majority LIKE over the last couple months? Why even bother with WW at all? You boys put alot of effort into getting this dynamic into the game, and you have done a good job so far with it. Dont screw the pooch by making this change; pull it while you still have time. Listen to your players; you know, the ones that pay for this game.

[Brader]

Mr. Owner of Wrangler Jeans to Customers: "Hiya guys, we have come up with a great idea! Starting next month, all our Blue Jeans will become Lemon Yellow Jeans! And you know why? Thats right... starting next month they will all be Lemon Yellow in color! We think our customers have come to dislike the color blue, and we know you will love Lemon Yellow. Let us know what you think about our great idea!"

Customers unified reponse to Mr. Owner: "Umm.... wtf???? Dude are you on crack, or are you halucinating again? DO NOT TURN OUR BLUE JEANS INTO LEMON YELLOW JEANS!

Mr. Owner to Secretary: "Hey Britney, get me manufacturing on the line... and wear something "nice" tonight, if ya know what I mean"

Britney to Mr. Owner: "Manufacturing on line 1"

Mr. Owner to Manufacturing: "Hey Rocko, I hope you got enough of that there Lemon Yellow die, because the response from our customers is in, and we are going full speed ahead next month! I don't want to see a single pair of our blue jeans in the stores next month. Because I'm telling you, they are going to go wild for that there Lemon Yellow!"

[LordShadowz]

I would love to know what "greater Skills" you are talking about ? I am a UA and I also have Magic D speced with 225 million XP put into Magic D.

My weapons never have resisted a mage to Date. I wack a mage for 5-40 a clip with VUlns.. A Mage wacks me for 150-210 with vulns.

Your changes are not going to cause any diversity. All your doing is destroying Archer PK's, Pretty much destroying Melee PK's, and increasing Mages abilities to kill everything.

How the heck is that causing any type of Diversity ? As a melee no matter what skill you got, you cannot resist a Mage thats higher than you. Even if you do, With their 400-450+ mana I am sure its not a problem to hit the button and try and try until it goes :)

Why are you guys over there at Turbine not listening to the players of this game ?? Look at the overwhelming responses. You ask for feedback, and when its given you say, oh well were doing it anyways..

In another Month you will have to change it back so why not just cut out the middle part and not do the change ? You had it as close to balanced as you could have ever gotten it..

You guys are always messing with things that aint broken, then you gotta make other changes to bring it to balance, then more changes to balance the last changes..

Why not fix things that ARE broken, like The mansion Bug, or hey why not put in some more chests in houses ? Do something thats helpful.


A very ticked Off,
Billy

[LordShadowz]

Oh and something else.


If the objective is to make it so you have more diverse groups, meaning Mages to support the melees etc etc.

It won't. Why ? because you see, when we die, we lose our things. I am not going to take my UA out and lose all my stuff fighting people in futility after you guys have castrated me. I will be using my mage to PK if this update goes through. I will have much more of a chance of surviving. I will enjoy all the added loot from all the Melee/Archer PK's I kill, that are nerfed and carrying useless Weapons..

I have a feeling people, like me, will be using their mages and backburnering their melee/archers. Whats the point of playing a nerfed character..

So Turbines Idea of Diverse must mean all Mage groups fighting all Mage groups...

[pacesetter]

I've actually decided to go above and beyond and try to get something else explaining our goals for PvP combat in general. Which may take a little longer, but will be all the more enlightening.

please hurry the patch is coming soon.



Regarding these changes, the short answer is that we feel they will increase the diversity of PvP as well as make player skill a greater factor and make group combat less melee-centric.

this is just vague enuf to leave one very big question in my mind.......... HOW???

and leave me thinking of many possibilities or scenarios in PVP fighting.......none of which I am fond of.

[Ibn]

What I currently find most interesting is that the reaction on the AC-wide forums has been mostly negative, whereas the reaction on, say, the Vault Darktide forum has been more varied and even positive in many threads.

[Paraduck]

All the more reason to discuss and get input on these things beforehand. :)

I made a poll (http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=60981379) on Darktide. Is it accurate? No. Will it help to easily gauge somewhat? Yes.

[Delupin]

I've been thinking about this for a little while, and I actually think the ability to debuff Weeping weapons will have a positive effect for PK, with one small caveat: that being the ancient phrasic apple of "to an extent".

The ability to debuff will favor those people who play seriously. Who are willing to amass multiple Weeping weapons, who are willing to switch weapons as they fight. who know the portent of spell words. Essentially, the dedicated, intelligent playerwho takes the whole business of PK seriously. Unfortunately, such players are in the minority, particularly post-PKL. Those who play casually do not have the time or the resources to acquire 2 or 3 Weeping Swords of a single element. Their only wish is to log in and fight with friends and enemies as circumstances dictate, but for them PK will have been made infinitely less rewarding if these modifications are implemented. They will find themselves castrated if they are a melee or archer, which is sad since these two classes are perhaps the more visceral and romantic of Asheron's Call.

Where skill is involved, and cherished, these changes will be embraced. Few dedicated players find themselves entranced by a static combat system, by an unchanging rota of balance and single class domination. For such players skill is imperative. Adaptation is imperative. For those players the Weeping weapon changes are ideal.

Unfortunately, those players are in the minority for all the classes. Most people have such a natural disposition that they are loathe to work at something, be it skill or otherwise. Their only concern is easy victory. However, most people play mages. And mages will find themselves relatively unaffected by these changes. People who play melees and archers in PK are, generally, more so fighters and battlers, individuals desperate to surmount AC's inherent PK class difficulties. And for those players, this will be just another problem to surpass and best.

This change is not, however, going to encourage more people to PK or PKL. Whether or nor that is a negative thing is open to debate, but in a time of flagging subscription figures and bored players it can hardly be entirely positive.

[Brader]

Originally posted by Ibn
What I currently find most interesting is that the reaction on the AC-wide forums has been mostly negative, whereas the reaction on, say, the Vault Darktide forum has been more varied and even positive in many threads.

IBN, in all honesty Vault DT forum is not a good place to get real feedback from people that actually spend a lot of time on DT. If you want a true pulse of the server, I would avoid that particular board like the plague. (Note: I am only referring to the DT board there. I find the rest of Vaults vboards to be pretty usefull)

I have played DT exclusively for nearly 3 years, and for the most part the majority of those posters either rarely play, or worse yet don't play at all. But they do like to post there. There are exceptions to this for sure. But overall it defenity is not a real indicator of the pulse of DT.

In game, the reaction has been really not much different then what you see in this thread, or on other boards.

This in no way is an attempt to brag, just to illustrate that I am actually in game a ton and have a somewhat informed opinion of the true consensous on DT. Here are a couple of my characters time in-game on DT, witjh zero macro time, and 100% of the time me behind the keyboard:

IG Age: 131d 09h 26m
RL Age: 974d 23h 01m

IG Age: 34d 18h 49m
RL Age: 649d 18h 38m

IG Age: 4d 06h 04m
RL Age: 796d 14h 48m

My main character (the one listed first) is a Level 137 War / Magic D / Life spec mage. So you are not getting a Melee biased opinion here.

Here is one other thing to consider about DT. DT has always been a Mage dominated server, only because if you wanted to PvP (and that is afterall why we are on DT) there were not many viable options to a Mage before. This only makes it more prone to have some people that would be unhappy seeing a greater diversity in templates that they are not used to fighting.

It just flat out is not right for us mages to be able to render our Melee opponents virtualy impotent in just one (or 2 or 3 for that matter) spell. And I think you will find that to be an opinion held by most people that are actually playing DT.

[AzulDrakkon]

Yeah, sorry to tell ya but most of the guys on DTvault with 10,000 posts don't have time to play darktide...they just post trashtalk and flame each other, and often pick the option on a poll that will tick off the largest group of people with no regard to anyones real-life feelings...read one post and you'll catch at least 8 insults.

[Brader]

At the risk of overextending my welcome, a couple other things come to mind since you brought up DT.

I have noticed the server population over 1k at times in the past week or two. It has been awhile since I had noticed a plus 1k population, It seems to me that the server pop has slowly been growing. Could the fact that PvP is more balanced since the introduction of weeping weapons somehow of sparked a new interest for some? I can't say for sure, but it is worth considering.

While there may be other reasons, I do know of people that were getting bored with AC DT. This is bound to happen when you play a single template for years. The fact that they could now try out a different template & actually be viable in PvP has given them something new & fun to try (me included).

Turbine has always seemed to me to of been a solid promoter of giving people reason to reroll. And I don't see anything wrong with that. But the fact is, that has never worked on DT because these incentives never really effected PvP on DT enough to be worth a shot at rerolling to try something new.

You have succeded in giving people a viable alternative to mages when you introduced weeping weapons. But not so much so that Mages are in any way gimped. As has been stated over & over in this thread, by many people, you have balanced the game more then it ever has been balanced. Sometimes it is ok to accept compliments :)

Are there flaws? Sure, but allowing us Mages to completely criple a melee is not a good way to fix whatever flaws you may see.

[sylphia]

More to the point, its a well known FACT that the majority of Darktide is Blood. Blood is notorious for doing anything and everythign they can get away with. Any cheat, trick, scam, grief they can pull, they do. You should visit THIER boards sometimes; they dont even get along with themselves! And not to mention that the vast majority are mages. They spend ALOT of time just hanging around lowbie areas picking on little guys as they port it. We are talking LVL 126 toons killing lvl 1 toons over and over again. Do you really think that THAT kind of mentality is what you should be basing this decision on?

And before anyone starts upa flame war over it, I recognize the necessity of jerks like Blood on DT; they are the "bad guys" that everyone else gets to play hero by fighting them; they are the "challenge" on DT. But that doesnt change the fact that if Blood LIKES a change, its pretty much a guarantee BAD thing for anyone else.

And for what its worth, I only found one thread there with any real relevance to this one, and there arent near the posts that this one has received, nor from as many ppl.

Oh, and ditto to what the posters above me have already said about that board :)

[gimped mage]

As far as armor imbues you should give this a try ........


Instead of a raising melee d by one 1 try haveing it add a percent to melee d skill . just like weapons do .

But dont make it stack with the weapons current melee d bonus .

Or make it stack . but that might make it too powerful .



This will give everyone a better melee d with a hand out or healing . It makes it a very useful imbue for everyone .

[Virindi Clown]

Sylphia, I believe the entire post you just made was ridiculous and irrelevant, and I'm not even in Blood.

Everyone has opinions regardless of what clan they're in. It's a freaking game.

[AzulDrakkon]

Theres good people and bad people no matter what guild, some bloods will challenge you to a 1v1, alot won't, but no reason to start fighting over it guys.

[sylphia]

Virindi Clown, I dont really care what your opinion is on the subject. You can agree or disagree; it doesnt change the facts. Blood IS the largest monarchy on all servers, Blood IS a griefer clan, Blood DOES abuse every glitch, bug, or cheat that they can find. Blood IS mainly mages, and they DO want to snag every advantage they can to further their own griefing, and they DO fight amongst themselves on their own boards. Every bit of that is 100% relevant when refering to the "majority opinion" of a server that is dominated by that clan. So go flame someone else.

The simple FACT is that out of the thousands of players in this game, the direction of the game should not be dictated by a group that specializes in griefing other players; its that element that most of us want OUT of the game, not leading its development.

And for the record, you shoudl re-read what I wrote. I fully recognize the "necessity" of having "bad guys" on DT; its what gives the rest of the server a reason to log on and fight them. That doesnt mean we cater to them with a change that is detrimental to the balance of the whole PK system.

[Grayson]

As the poll I posted on the ACV Dev board showed, there's a lot of folks that don't like this change. I'm one of them.

Imo, 1on1 PvP is fairly well balanced right now. Melee don't do particularily well, but they're excellent in group fights, so it balances out a bit.

Mage vs Archer has, imo, been really nicely balanced for 1 on 1. My archer is 173, and max coord/bow. The damage I do to mages in 400+ armor is signifigant, but it takes me some time (and a bit of luck) to whittle them down. Avoiding the two-shot-kill is tough, but it makes it interesting. I've actually enjoyed PKL with my archer, minus the immature dinks who get reported for profanity ;)

There's no skill involved in clicking someone and casting Bloodloather until they pull out their weapon. The only defense against this that I know of is to enequip the weapon. I'm not sure how i'm supposed to fight if I'm constantly putting away my weapon, heh. A mage doesn't have to go through any kind of animation or windup for BLing a weapon and attacking. He can safely stand there casting wars at me until I pull out my weapon, at which point he BL's it or i put it away. Rinse, lather, repeat until he hits me with two wars in a row.

To put away my bow, as soon as I see the BL spellwords, I have to use my shortcut for the weapon. Woe to me if I'm in the middle of the shooting/reloading animation when the spell casts. Particularily since mages can vary the time their spells go off now. Assuming I get the bow away (you don't have to have the weapon completely put away for it to be protected), I then have to go into the UA combat stance, and then I can pull out my weapon again, do the reload animation, and fire.

And once that BL lands, I'm useless for 3 minutes. Unless I happen to be packing several heavy bows, in which case I can pull out a fresh one to get BL'd ;(

[AzulDrakkon]

Grey, I believe archers are a viable class too, but everyone else keeps getting powered up to the point that its much harder for archers now...I don't like getting one shot...I wear my sharded, the melees eat me....I wear my tinked...the mages one shot me, all the while I hit for 30s, or hit the eviroment the main beef I have is arrows should track better...then I wouldn't mind hitting for thirtys because I wouldn't be killed by people abusing strafe an inch and then back glitches.

[Televangelist]

Debuffable weeping weapons are good.

Melees are overpowered.

Archers are melee killers, but could use a bit of <3.

[sylphia]

Melees are overpowered? in what way? Seriously, provide some info to back this up, please; i want to know what I am missing here. The only real advantage a melee has in combat is their ability to sticky on someone...which will get them killed vs a mage.


Archers are melee killers? Sure, if the melee is AFK at the time. Sorry, but shields pretty much negate arrows. As do trees, bushes, rocks, buildings, or anything else that the target happens to be standing near--or even a simple side-step. And I realize that alot of these same tactics can be applied vs a mage, but the difference is the mage hits for 120-150 vs a fully lvl-7-pro'ed target, compared to the 30's that an archer gets. And thats BEFORE you add in a slayer bonus from WW's.

[Paraduck]

Originally posted by Televangelist
Archers are melee killers

I'm sure I read that wrong... Archers kill melees? Hah.

[Brader]

Guys... take the personal debate somewhere else?

It just detracts from the subject at hand.

[AzulDrakkon]

heres the simple truth...if based on skill (all skills, including player skill being the same, same armor, no crits, lvl 7 vulns..melees/ archers using plentifuls, mages using their extensive spell healing substitutes)

Mages>Archers<Melee<Mages...
150 30 30*

Nuff' said :D
*On speed

...Btw Shields (witholding aegis!) are nonfactor in pvp now... weepings are shieldhollow sy

/rant

Now back to this edition of "PRZ DOn'T DEBooF MY WeePING!"

[sylphia]

Its not a personal debate; we are talking about class balance. Turbine seems to think that archers and melees need a nerf next month. That seems more like a server wide thing to me than a personal one.


WW's are shield hollow? You certain about that? I havent seen any references to it. If it is, it DOES make shields moot, which is something archers need, but again, I have yet to see anything about it... Ibn?

[Paraduck]

I'm 100% sure they're shield hollow.

[cindel]

Originally posted by Ibn
I've actually decided to go above and beyond and try to get something else explaining our goals for PvP combat in general. Which may take a little longer, but will be all the more enlightening.

Regarding these changes, the short answer is that we feel they will increase the diversity of PvP as well as make player skill a greater factor and make group combat less melee-centric.

I still think the debuffable weaping weapons is a very dumb idea. buy hey thats just me, or is it?

Anyway, Im glad you mentioned makeing skill a greater factor!

Does this mean you will be fixing any of the issuses with archers being evaded, not by SKILL, but an expliot?

[LordShadowz]

Exactly,


You can see a majority of everyone is saying the change is bad, and what does the Community manager come back with ? Well the ones on ONE server (DT) are positive. LOL. The subtle point he is making is, atleast this is how *I* take it, is we aren't changing the update no matter what you people say. It's simply too late to change the prop now anyways. As I said they ask for feedback, they get it, but it means nothing.

The proposed changes to WW's are just stupid and detrimental. Everyone can see that except Turbine/MS. They are gonna muck up the game for those that enjoy playing PK or PKL. The sad part is the responses are staring them in the darn faces !!!

There are so many issues and bugs they should be fixing first. The mansion Bug, The Jump Casting Bug, Graphics Bugs. They instead choose to fix things that aren't broken and that they actually did a great job already of making balanced already.

I do not understand their thinking or priorities at all. And now its less than a week from prop, they ask for feedback, they get it, but we still have seen no complete insight into anything nor are they acting on our feedback.

I've finally lost faith in Turbine.


A very upset paying Customer, who has been playing since Beta 0 (Still has his Beta 0 CD hanging on the wall next to his Computer,

Billy

[LordShadowz]

Lets do a For instance..

Here is a little bug you need to fix Asap :)

http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=60971995

Edit: BTW I post this because I too have fallen victim to this bug. A few weeks ago I had lost my best AR Cestus on my Main, highest level character. I searched all 3 of my accounts, I searched everywhere, it was gone. Last week I logged in, went to go fight tuskers, and noticed my AR Fire Nekode was gone also. I store all my weapons and jewelry in my first top pack.

This needs to be fixed. As you can see my frustration, You choose to fix things that aren't broken, yet you don't fix things that are.

[AzulDrakkon]

I'm from DT, and I don't like the change...any many mages and non mages from DT agree.

[Yung Kin]

First, I'd like to start with the formula you guys posted:
Pre-patch
(buffed melee defense * buffed weapon modifier) + Armor Imbue

Post-patch
(buffed melee defense + Armor Imbue) * buffed weapon modifier

While I laud the efforts that went into determining the maximum game effect that a player might get from imbues, why not make it closer to the overall game scheme by limiting the potential for unbalance by a single melee class (Unarmed Combat), while at the same time making less of them worn worth more?

Here's a modified formula
(buffed melee defense * buffed weapon modifier) + (Armor Imbue*5/3)

The 5 constant is used to simulate the AC habit of making minors, mods, and majors a factor of 5.

The 3 constant is used for the numbers of imbues there are.

What does this get us?
Two things, it increases the benefit to mimic Turbine's standard 'bonuses' and also removes the potential abuse by one class, specifically UA, who receive the best melee defense modifier from their weapons (upto a max of 25% base I believe).

As well, someone who imbues every item they wear 9 pieces of armor plus shield, gets a maximum 16.6 point increase which is slightly higher than a Major MeleeD. Your average Mage would only get the Major MeleeD equivalent of 15. So for a 'minor' effect, you'd wear three, for a moderate you'd wear 6, etc. Why groups of three? There are three different imbues. So if someone wanted to have Minor MeleeD, Minor MagicD, and Minor MissileD (equivalents), and they had the audacity to go out and imbue all 9 pieces of their armor in three different shades of imbue, then reward them for it.

As it is, our Buffed MeleeD 400 character with all imbued armor will only receive 10 points now, and IF that same char had a UA weapon with the max 35% tinkered base (10 tinkered 25% base UA weapon) and a level VII for a meleeD bonus of 52%, yielding a 15.2 point bonus (again the poetic beauty of Turbine's math wanting to limit potential maximum reward to 'Major' level - note: Only UA at this time are ever going to realize this potential).

So, remove the Armor imbue from inside the parentheses, and put it back outside so that you don't have to gimp it due to one class (Unarmed Combat) and let everyone reap the benefits in tangible ways.

Thanks for listening.

[Virindi Clown]

The facts about debuffing weeping weapons:

-Archers suck and are worthless. Now they will not even exist.
-Mages cannot be debuffed any way like this.
-Balance is fine 1 on 1 and there really isn't anything completely wrong with group fighting. It isn't perfect, but that's no way to fix it.
-People will just cast it immediately in every fight. That's no skill. Might as well just take 22 damage off every weapon in the game.
-You can carry multiple weapons, but mages don't have to, and they hit the hardest and get every element. That is unfair.
-You may be able to avoid it when you see the spell words, but that's just irritating, and it will take you longer to rearm then for the mage to just cast it once and they can do it ENDLESSLY. There is nothing you can do back to a mage like that.

Hollows were not debuffable and were a main PvP weapon. After that came phantoms. Then weeping. They were that way because it made sense. For people to be able to debuff eachother with a -22 damage spell is not right, so it was avoided in PvP. There is no good reason to change it back now.

People say it is not a new thing, so no one should complain. It is not a new thing, but it is a FIXED thing of the past. There is NO reason to go back to the screwed up past when things are just now shaping up.

That is the bottom line. Everything about it is wrong. No one likes it. It is the WORST idea I have EVER seen in this game HANDS DOWN. If it happens, I will be VERY VERY angry and so will MANY people.

[Brader]

One thing is for sure: If they go through with this, then giving them feedback when they ask for it mean absolutely nothing. Because you can look right here on this thread where about 90% expressed their opposition..

And on the VN Poll, which had over 230 responses, people were 4 to 1 against it.

It will be one of the most flagrant instances of a company completely disregarding what the CUSTOMER wants that I have ever seen.

[Ibn]

Originally posted by sylphia
WW's are shield hollow? You certain about that? I havent seen any references to it. If it is, it DOES make shields moot, which is something archers need, but again, I have yet to see anything about it... Ibn?

Yes, Weeping Weapons are shield-hollow.

[Virindi Clown]

Here's a good idea. Just take 22 damage off every weeping weapon, except for wands, which would be left the same.

That'll make it easier for everyone. Now they don't have to take the time they would have to immediately cast the spell any time they see a non-mage character.

Much more convenient for everyone. The game requires enough skill for all the other inepts and god moding elixirs and infinite spin jumps and stuff as it is, so no need to make everyone have to show off how good they are with another one.

[sylphia]

Thanks for the reply Ibn; I prefer getting confirmation straight from the source as it were on things like that :)

[Ibn]

First off, I need to apologize. It was pointed out to me by other members of the team that my answer regarding the Weeping Weapons change was not entirely accurate. If there's one thing that I hate, it's giving you inaccurate information, and I'll try very hard to make sure that this doesn't happen again.

"Melee-centric" was a poor choice of words. This is not about melees, this is about the weapons themselves. In a group fight that involves melees or archers, the Weeping Weapons are a huge factor.

With making the Weeping Weapons debuffable, it introduces many new factors into the same group fight. If I'm wielding one, do I have an alternate weapon in case it gets debuffed? Can I quickly put it away if I see "Equin Aeril"? Is my Magic Defense high enough to have a chance at resisting if a debuff gets cast on me? If I'm a mage, do I debuff the weapon or cast a vuln on its wielder? Do I debuff the damage on the weapon, or do I cast Lure Blade so that my friends can hit the wielder more easily?

We believe that adding these factors improves PvP balance, specifically improving the balance of Weeping Weapons in group fights.

[DaggerMan]

I chose a melee to PK with so I wouldn't have to do all that micro-managing that comes with being a mage and PKing. If I ever fight a mage, I want to focus on just being able to dodge the wars they shoot, and not have to also focus on the fact that mages, in one spell, can render me useless, unless I can whip the weeping in and out of my pack fast enough to dodge the spells. I PK with a dagger if ever. Dagger sucks. I think that when you implemented these changes, you have the idea in your head that EVERY melee PK(L) is a sword, which isn't true.

[Brader]

IBN, I'm pretty surprised to see you guys proceed with this when it appears the feedback you receieved here is around 90% negative. and the poll at VN boards was 4 to 1 opposed. Mind blowing reaction to your customers feedback if you ask me.

Now lets go item by item in why Turbine, and not Turbines customers for the most part, don't agree with you:

You wrote: "If I'm wielding one, do I have an alternate weapon in case it gets debuffed?"

Is there something that I am unaware of that will make it any harder for us mages to debuff the second, third, fourth.... you get the idea? Or would not logging in be the best defense against getting your weapon turned into a butter knife?

You wrote: Can I quickly put it away if I see "Equin Aeril"?

Since their is zero reason for us mages to have to do so, I guess I answered my own question above...... just don't ever take out a weapon and you should be ok.

You wrote: Is my Magic Defense high enough to have a chance at resisting if a debuff gets cast on me?

You must be joking on this one right? Mages will have their item skill high enough within weekes of the patch that next to ZERO melees will ever stand a easonable chance of resisting the debuff. Or are you trying to encourage MELEES to start with 100 focus / self & Spec Magic D?

You wrote: "If I'm a mage, do I debuff the weapon or cast a vuln on its wielder?"

Have you thought this stuff through? Because this is a no brainer. I will vuln first, then if they are ever brave enough to actually wield their weapon anymore I debuff it. It is just as easy as a vuln now. What made you think us Mages are going to have to CHOOSE between the two? This isn't an either / or situation... it is a one first, the other second situation.

You wrote: "Do I debuff the damage on the weapon, or do I cast Lure Blade so that my friends can hit the wielder more easily?"

Again, did you guys think this through? And this requires thinking about if I am a mage? Umm.... all signs to point to cutting my opponents weapon damage in half. It really isn't a tough decision.

There is no point in stating how badly you have blown it with this one.... and there are two rasons why it is pointless:

1: It has all been articulated here by many, many people and you choose to ignore your customers.

2: It appears that Turbine must be playing mages on DT (Like I do), because that is the only reason I can think of for a developer to do something like this that flies in the face, so blatantly, of what their very own customers want.

[Brader]

One last question IBN, do the powers that be know that this is the response you got when you asked for feedback? (Again, each quote is taken from a different, unique feedback post)

"I think being able to debuff Weeping Weapons is a BAD idea. I almost can't believe you guys are implementing that into the game."

"For the first time since the first year melee players had a viable chars in pvp. To take that away in one patch would greatly dishearten a large portion of the pvp players"

"Guys, your allowing weeping weapons to be debuffed is a TERRIBLE idea."

"Melee vs Mage will no longer an option. Mages will rule once more, why?"

"I cannot fathom what would make you think of such a silly idea."

"It wasn't broke before, and I think this change will hurt the original intent of these weapons."

"Targetting a player and casting blood loather on someone's weapon is entirely too easy and too detrimental to a meleer or an archer."

"DEBUFFABLE WEEPING WEAPONS IS MURDER!"

"With this change, melees and archers get slammed, but mages are unaffected"

"You pretty much neuter Melee and Archers in one on one fights"

"This weeping weapon thing sounds really bad."

"PLEASE attempt to look into something else...this isn't the way to BALANCE pk"

"wtf mages can easily vuln our weapon to reduce our damage yet what is a melee's advantage to debuffing a Mana C on a wand."

"From all that I have seen so far, This is a step that should NOT be taken at all."

"I think allowing the Weeping Weapons to be Debuffed is WRONG and should be taken out of the December update."

"I'm a bit upset in regards to the changes being made to weeping weapons."

"I don't play anymore, however, debuffing weeping weapons is a VERY VERY VERY VERY bad idea."

"PLEASE Re-think this out...."

"I am dumbfounded by the announcment that weeping weapons will become debuffable"

"a lvl VII debuff will make the weeping totally useless, and non-mages will flee the PK scene"

"C'mon guys, where are your heads? THINK!!"

"Weeping Weapons (changes): Dumest thing I have herd of yet. Really it is."

"Debuffing the weeping weapon is a complete joke"

"The weepoing weapons work fine as is. There is a saying: If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

"Please don't change the weeping weapons"

"This will be the worst update EVER!"

"Do the right thing and do not put this "tweak" in"

"it's pretty obvious the majority of the players don't want it (weeping changes)."

"Weeping weapons....simple enough.....don't touch them, you have a clear concensus"

[sylphia]

Lets look at a hypothetical situation. The biggest concern is multi-player battles, right? More specifically it is about getting ganked by multiple ppl at one time, which is what is happening in the game these days. So we have a couple of melees that jump a mage. Sure, the mage could BL the weapons, but at least one of the melees is going to get his damage in before that happens, and between the two of them they are going to rape the mage anyway, so whats the point of casting a BL on either of them?

Suppose its 2 mages vs one melee. That poor guy doesnt really stand a chance, whether the mages BL his weapon or not. Adding the ability to debuff his weapon only lowers his survival rate; it offers no balance to the battle at all.

In multi person-per-side battles, the side with the most mages is just about guaranteed to win, esp if they can debuff all the melee weapons. I wouldnt be worried about whether or not my melee partner can hit the other melee easier; i would be worried about whether or not we can take out the opposing mage before they take ME out.

This is the part that really irks me: You mention specifically the thing that I hate most, taking off a weapon to avoid a spell being cast upon it. Number one, this isnt 100% reliable tactic, and #2 I consider it a chest just like fast-casting, slow casting, spin jumping, etc. Whats more, why bother having weeping weapons at all, if you are going to reduce us to these silly tactics? This is the curent problem with all the de-buffable weapons as it is; we already play hide the salami with wpns vs a debuffing mage. There is no skill involved there. Its just a matter of getting the wepon unequipped before the mage finishes casting, and HOPEFULLY getting it back on and continueing the attack before he can hit it with another. What you wind up with is a mage and melee standing there doing nothing but jockeying that WW back and forth. Until the mage gets tired of it and shoves a War up the melee's kazoo and is done with it.

And an FYI, some of the plug-in programmers have finally got it working consistently, where we cn buff armor that a target toon is wearing or in their inventory. I cant belive it would be any harder for them to figure out how to target and buff/debuff a weapon that is also in inventory rather than being weilded. Which pretty much negates the whole taking it off to avoid the spell thing.

The ONLY situation where debuffable WW's really makes a huge impact is a 1 vs 1 match. Once the mage hits the BL, the melee is neutered. And why should anyone have to carry around multiple weeping weapons just to avoid the BL? The whole POINT is NOT to have to carry a pack full of weapons just to do some PK-ing. Carrying extra weapons isnt skill either. Its just extra weight.

And assuming that everything actually worked the way you guys THINK it does (which it does NOT), you STILL have reduced the damage that melees and archers do, without a comparable reduction to mages. There is no way around the fact that it is just an unfair disadvantage, esp when mages ALREADY have a clear advantage. And no, the solution is NOT to find some way to nerf a mage's damage; if you start that trend, yo only make it harder and harder for PKs to eliminate one another, and thus prlong a fight to the point it is BORING. The solution is to leave it alone; its working as-is.

Melees have an advantage in a groupfight? So what? Let them shine for once. God knows 1v1, the mage is gonna get his payback anyway.

Lastly to clarify, I am not upset with you Ibn. I know you dont make the decisions; you just happen to be the only visible target at the moment. But I want it quite clear that whoever suggested this should be tossed out on their ear, especially if they STILL think it should be added after the overwhelming ***CUSTOMER*** response saying we DONT want it. Dont be afraid to make changes to the game, but by god when your customers tell you NO, then listen to what we say. WE pay the bills, and if you tick too many of us off, you don't have a game anymore. I notice none of the dev staff have come forward to admit they were the one that suggested this. That should say something by itself.

[Jin Saotome]

But can't you just use your Isparian Modifying Tool to revert your weapon, and reset all the spells on it like we can do now? This recharges the mana, and also wipes all spells from it.

[Extinction]

"In multi person-per-side battles, the side with the most mages is just about guaranteed to win"

You don't PvP much, do you ?

For a team the best combo is 1/3 Mages, 2/3 melee.

[Yew Wan Sum]

"We believe that adding these factors improves PvP balance, specifically improving the balance of Weeping Weapons in group fights."

No. What you are doing is destroying 1v1 balance and piling dirt on the grave of archers in PvP for the sake of MAGE survival on the battlefield when they are ganged.

Here's a concept for you: If you are outnumbered 2+:1 by *equal* opponents(no matter what their class is), you should DIE. Period. Why are you trying to make this not the case? How about you concentrate on making sure that 2 archers, or 2 mages, are as effective at killing 1 melee as 2 melees are at killing 1 mage? If you see a balance problem in group fights then fix the GROUP dynamic and leave the 1v1 out of it. If your idea of a 'balance problem' is that a mage cant stand up to 2 melees, then you need a reality check. No 1 person should be able to withstand 2 of *anything* unless those 2 are weaker than the 1.

[sylphia]

Whats your point Exticntion? does the mix of a group change the fact that debuffing a melee's weeping weapon pretty much negates his damage potential and removes him as a real threat? Nope, didnt think so. Spare me the personal atttacks. I said form the very beginning I dont PK alot; that doesnt mean I dont know what I am talking about.

[Extinction]

Originally posted by sylphia
Whats your point Exticntion? does the mix of a group change the fact that debuffing a melee's weeping weapon pretty much negates his damage potential and removes him as a real threat? Nope, didnt think so. Spare me the personal atttacks. I said form the very beginning I dont PK alot; that doesnt mean I dont know what I am talking about.

Uh ok here's a little lesson in PvP.

1. A mage will NOT land Bloodloather on 2 melees who are attacking them - first, they will unequip their weapon just as its about to cast, then continue attacking, dead mage.

2. Even WITH bloodloather on a weeping, they will do decent damage

3. A melee could just have 4+ different weepings, if one is debuffed they can switch to the other.

PvP isn't something you can know anything about without experiencing it alot, and regularly.

[Televangelist]

Of course the average DT'er will love the WW changes.

They all play mages!

Someone posted this on the ACVault thread. It could not be further from the truth.

This new change will bring greater group balance to PvP. Archers might need some minor form of help, though. :)

[Brader]

This new change will bring greater group balance to PvP. Archers might need some minor form of help, though. :) [/B]

Ohh yea this will bring balance. Melees & archers become impotent in one single spell. Tell ya what, hop on a melee the day of the patch. I'll meet you on my mage.

Then tell me how much you like a bloodloather. Or how much you love hiding your weapon all day.

Bring out another weeping? Damn I might have to spend 2 tapers to cast loather again! Ouch! Now that is some serious melee love!

Then try to incapacitate me? lol! Go ahead... incapacitate my mana c bonus on my wand. The horror! For the love of god, please do not reduce my mana c bonus on my wand!

Or.. you could spend all day hiding your multiple weapons so I don't loather them.

Then again, you could never log on ad avoid the complete nightmare.

(I love it when Mages say this is fair, when it is so blatently a major dose of Mage love / melee "screw u", that it is undeniable.... and I say this as a Mage)

[Taker_AC]

May I just start out by saying that I am not a PK'er. I have many reasons for not liking it, but in the end, it just not my style. However, when I first read the LttP, I was bamboozled as to why you would make a change that.

Now I am sure you all have your reasons/logic for wanting to make the change. I am not going to disagree with the change as I don't PK.

What I am having a hard time in believing is that you did not bring up the idea for discussion first. Let's set the way back clock to the first really big nerf: GSx. It was big, it was disliked by the majority of the population, and it was made without warning.

Turbine stated that, in the future, any big ground-breaking change would be given advanced warning. Now my thoughs behind the intent of that is if Turbine planned to make a change and the majority of the population screamed *foul*, then the change could be reversed. When you made the drain change, while I didn't like the change, I couldn't fault you for giving us a fair warning (i.e. over a month in advance). You did the same when you stated you were going to nerf double and triple-strike weapons. I assume that you got enough kick back on that to not make the change, instead you boosted other weapons (fair enough). I'd even point out the RFC you started on PK-Lite. That was a great step in the right direction.

All that being said, I think you dropped the ball on this one. Weeping weapons is a big deal for PvP's. I don't even PK, and I know that. While this may seem like a small change to you, it impacts enough people that you should have given more of an advanced warning, and possibly a forum for alternitive ideas. And I will state for the record that the Letter to the Players is NOT advanced warning.

PS:
I was roaming VNBoards and found my way here by Ibn's link. He said that the answer was stated here, but I have looked thru all the posts and I still havn't found a solid, technical, answer as to why this change was made.

*carry on*

[Televangelist]

What I am having a hard time in believing is that you did not bring up the idea for discussion first.

If he had brought it up for discussion, people would be upset both about the change *and* about how he ignored their input about it.

By not bringing it up for discussion, people are less worked up.

Specific class balance corrections are generally not something that should generally be a "bringing up for discussion" topic -- I say this from experience of watching many devs on many different MMORPGs, both large and small.

[Televangelist]

Ohh yea this will bring balance. Melees & archers become impotent in one single spell. Tell ya what, hop on a melee the day of the patch. I'll meet you on my mage.

Wrong analogy. The proper analogy is that I see you somewhere with ten of your friends and you see me with ten of my friends.

In the resulting battle, as a melee, I'll do just fine. Right now, I'd be a wee bit overpowered.

Why do you keep talking about 1vs1 situations like they matter?

[AzulDrakkon]

Originally posted by Ibn
In a group fight that involves melees or archers, the Weeping Weapons are a huge factor.

Of course...but then again so are mages that hit for 200.

With making the Weeping Weapons debuffable, it introduces many new factors into the same group fight. If I'm wielding one, do I have an alternate weapon in case it gets debuffed?

The mages don't....but apparently we do?

Can I quickly put it away if I see "Equin Aeril"?
If you manage not to lag or glitch perhaps
Is my Magic Defense high enough to have a chance at resisting if a debuff gets cast on me?

Magic Defense-12 to spec...based on Focus+Self/7
Max starting Magic defense: 39...Average for melees and archers...based on actually pumping either Focus or Self to 100(and thats being generous):...25

Item Magic-8 to train 8 to spec....based on Focus+Self/4
Max starting Item (Mage): 60
21 points more than Magic Defense for a mage even...odd isn't it, but its a whopping 35 points more than a magically gifted melee or archer WITH SPEC'D MAGIC DEFENSE.

If I'm a mage, do I debuff the weapon or cast a vuln on its wielder?
Both...Neuter his damage to 3 and then peg him with one of my lovely 300 damage *Turbine will never nerf us* arcs of doom.

Do I debuff the damage on the weapon, or do I cast Lure Blade so that my friends can hit the wielder more easily?
You're Joking right?...I don't even believe that one.

We believe that adding these factors improves PvP balance for mages specifically improving the balance of Weeping Weapons *cough* wands...in group fights.

Thank you for enlightening us on how you propose to ignore us and call it balance...I normally wouldn't be so bitter, but its so obvious that this isn't balance that its not funny. I'm very disappointed that the whines of the few outweigh the thoughtful complaints of the many...

[Orion]

There has been a great outswell of negative response and a fair amount of positive feedback,over the changes that are coming for weeping weapons and very little response from the developer team.

Why, you ask?

The changes are not live.

We are always mindful of what player thoughts are, and if our decisions are wrong we do change them. It has happened in the past and it's a fairly safe bet that we'll admit our mistakes and make changes to things we know we made errors on, in the future.

We have seen the preliminary feedback, we have seen the outpouring and cries of players that feel that these weapons were perfect as they are. We are neither deaf, nor blind.

However, these responses are pre-update. There have been no accurate depictions of what fights are like with the changes. Play experience and response has shown that weeping weapons have done more to hurt group combat than we had expected and with the inclusion of resistance to item magic extended to wielded belongings we felt that the time was right to exercise this change.

We did not expect that every player would be excited about these changes, in fact we expected a fair amount of negative feedback because a change of this magnitude can be daunting and frustrating. We also know from 3.5 years of background where weapons that could be debuffed was the norm, that in the past Player-Killer players have adapted.

During that time we saw the inclusion of Hollow and Phantom weapons, each specifically for anti-magic purposes, each immune to enchantment. We also saw the inclusion and rise of tinkered weaponry. Tinkered weapons replaced Hollow and Phantom weapons in PK, yet there was no outcry of making weapons unenchantable.

When the Weeping weapons were introduced they were indeed unenchantable. This precluded the change to item magic. Now that this has been established we want to return some of the tactical and variant play to PK.

So what does this mean?

Like all other changes that have been made to the game over the years, this one may change again. But we are not going to reverse our decision based on the current round of feedback. We want you to play with them, see how the fights transpire and be mindful that this is a fortelling of future changes to pk. We're close to where we want the balance but it's not there yet.

Take the time to play with the changes and see how they play. Know that we have heard the preliminary feedback. We've logged it and we'll be looking at the way that events unfold during PK fights on Darktide, as well as other servers before any changes are undone, or tweaked further.

We hear you. We always have and we always will. Our lack of response has had more to do with looking over responses and thinking about the future than not caring. We do have a plan, (no we're not ready to discuss it yet, but we are working on it)and in time it will all be revealed.

[AzulDrakkon]

Archers might need some minor form of love?

Are you kidding me...why don't you just destroy Turbine's system:


"The only good archer or melee is a nonfactor one, and obviously we believe that mages should be capable of anything...this is ASHERON'S call right? Melees and archers should be put in their place...cowering in fright as the mighty mage with his overpowered bolts and untouched exploits, massive health, and massive magics, resistances, and magic defense stalks them with their 3 run skill...and if that mage should die, we should quickly find the reason for that death and extract it from the game...the melee is swinging some kind of metal object you say? and it hit the mage for...6 damage through his unbaned AL 12 boots?! NERF NERF NERF, what?! that archer is moving faster than a mage? GEAR! Ban him! He also hit me through my 140 base missile defense on full accuracy...what kinda bunk is that?! MISSILE DEFENSE NEEDS LOVE



...If you didn't know this is asheron's call in 6 months, if we melees and archers who still play melees and archers, and AREN'T collecting spec/despec gems don't band together and stop this now.

NOTE: posted before I saw Orion's post, I'm still upset...due to the lack of mage exploit checking and yet again no help for the archers, but I'll choke down this crappy patch like I did the last 6
which primarily focused on melees and mages

BTW: Fair amount of positive feedback? No just 3 mages who feel the need for a little more unbalance in their favor.

[Orion]

Azul,

Hang in there. It's coming.

[Extinction]

Originally posted by Orion
Azul,

Hang in there. It's coming.

Assuming that means any more melee love/mage nerfs, then the cancellation of my 3 accounts is also coming.

[Brader]

"Fair amount of positive feedback?"

Have you read this thread?' I'd guestimate 9 against to every 1 for your changes.

Have you seen that after 235 votes on VN, by a 4 to 1 majority people don't want this change?

What would you call a "lack of positive feedback", if you think this is a "fair amount of positive feedback"?

While you say you have not seen how this plays out live, it doesn't require a fortune teller to give you an idea how this will play out when every mage has bloodloather placed on their hotkey right next to the vuln.

You also refer to bloodloather effects in the past. You surely realize that now we mages don't have to fish around for their weapon, things may be a little different now...... right? They were totally screwed when we did have to fish for their weapon. Now it is childs play and no doubt will be as common as a vuln. Again, furtune telling isn't required to foresee this.

[AzulDrakkon]

K Orion, but I'm hoping it comes before I shoot my monitor :p

[Televangelist]

The Darktide-only poll showed a significant number of people who felt this change was for the best.

[MaddyFF]

While I raise questions about some changes in the past, I do know that one has to wait to see how they actually work in game to really judge them.

Sometimes my concerns were shown wrong, other times they weren't. Of course that is a subjective opinion. :)

[Siffy]

I was really surprised after 2 month of PKL all have still fun with it and many fights are rumbling over dereth on the whitedot servers. Many players came back to AC cauz the boring time was over.

I think the december event with the change of weeping weapons the boring time will rising again.

You will have only 2 options and i dont need to try it out if thats true or not, im playing since beta 0 and spent more then 8 month of my real life in the game. I know the players and the game technics very well...


So 2 options:

1) after 20 mins and some kills later the melees/archers will not go PKL again. We will see pink mages standing around and begging for duels. Why i should be a toy of these mages? I play AC for MY fun and not for the enjoyment of mages... so i will stay white

After 2-3 weeks pkl will be like pk was on whitedot servers...
No need and fun to use it.

2) you made a mage or got one allready and thats the only class for PKL/PK. Great, all is balanced again. We got only mages, and mages vs mages are fair, right?


How could turbine think these two options will be good for the game???

".... Test it and we will see if it works .... "

MS is not shuting down AC! But i could see many many players leaving. We are not Tester - we are players !

And the last thing is, DT i feel witih you, no chance to stay white ;) so one option less for you ...

---
"Some ideas are good, some are bad, but you cant be sure - Let us test it if it hurts to shoot yourself in the foot, if you dont try it, you cant be sure ;)"

[Extinction]

I pity the fool who thinks Blood Loather affects combat so much.

Seriously, unequip+equip the weapon at the right time you will lose maybe 1 swing..

[Logan]

My personal opinion to the LttP is, that i realy hope that after the last patch i realy hope for something interesting this month. There are so many changes that are not to usefull and not even recognised.

I usually wait for the portal.dat to look how many new things are introduced in a patch (ok ok i know thats not the recomanded way ;). Last patch we had a hugh portal.dat but to be honest very few things to do in game. Why? Most of the new icons refer to the changes to leather armor.
Did you see anyone wear leather? Maybe you find a mule on MP in leather. An artist at Turbine spend hours and hours designing the new leather armor. With less work you could have the critters drop salvaged leather, which would be a lot more usefull. Bad al bad protections...WHY should anyone wear leather? Just for the looks?

The changes introduced in the LttP are inline with the usefullness of leather. The armorimbues are useless. As mentioned by a lot of people. 66% chance of destruction for +1 or now +1,25? Get a major invul item and you get a lot more. Imbue your major? lol brave person:). Will we se a increase in armorimbue with the new calculation? I highly doubt that.

Changing to WW. Dont want to beat a dead horse. Try a item only Swordsman in PVP..then come back and tell me melees are overpowered. What i saw people were complaining less lately (sure someone will whine allways) but otherwise it was ok..the balance is destroyed. Whats the reason for this decision?

Housechanges..nice and usefull but i would say a minor change. There are still a few bugs to kill, still some important issues to discuss (hot topics) and especially now we need something NEW to prevent people to leave for horizon. Nothing of that is in the LttP

Hope that helps and sorry if this sounds a bit depressed, but to many people left my allegiance lately

[Extinction]

"Try a item only Swordsman in PVP..then come back and tell me melees are overpowered."

Try finding a mage friend ;)

[Logan]

No need i log my mage on and onehit them ;)

but i allways have to lough a lot when mages bith about the PvP power of melees. Those people have never played a variety of chars so the blind are talking about the light

[Extinction]

Originally posted by Logan
No need i log my mage on and onehit them ;)

but i allways have to lough a lot when mages bith about the PvP power of melees. Those people have never played a variety of chars so the blind are talking about the light

Uh, I have a level 100+ in all three classes, and have PvP'ed on all three, melee's have all the advantages..

[sylphia]

Extinction you need to learn to read before you post. I believe i quite clearly said that a mage vs 2 melees would get trounced. I believe I said that at least one of the melees would get his damage in before the mage was able to get both weapons BLed. And when I say I "dont PK much", that means compared to the time i have played the game. I have played for 4 years; I dont PK anywhere near as much as I am non-PK. Once again that doesnt mean I dont know what I am talking about. If you really think that BLing a weapon doesnt make much difference, then its pretty obvious YOU are the one who doesnt know what he is talking about. If BL DIDNT make mcuh difference, then there wouldnt be such an overwhelmingly negative response to it. Even the mages can see that its a mistake, and WE are the ones getting the advantage.

And I will say it again: there is no skill involved in having multiple WW's, nor in being able to remove a weapon before it is debuffed, then put it back on. The first is totally unnecessary if they leave the WW alone. The second is a cheat akin to all the others curently being abused in PK. Reasons to cheat should be REMOVED not encouraged. Why does no one have multiple holows or phantoms? Aside form the fact they dont do the job anymore, they dont NEED to, because they cant be debuffed. A melee shouldnt have to carry a pack full of weapons just to avoid being BLed.

If all you want to do is flame me, then I wont bother with your posts anymore.

[sylphia]

Orion, the reason yo uare seeing such an outcry AGAINST the change BEFORE it is implemented is because we already know what the impact of BL will be, based on its affect on other weapons used in PK. And we are trying to stop this blatent melee-gimping BEFORE it happens. Why should they have to suffer through at least one month of being nerfed (AGAIN) in PvP, when the clear concensus is that its bad? Even if WE are wrong (which experience with similar functionality tells us we are NOT), it still bottom lines to WE pay the bills, and you should NOT add this new tech, because we DONT WANT IT.

I used to DM quite alot. I even experimented with my own gaming system. One thing I learned pretty quickly was that if I planned to make a major change to the gaming system, I needed to discuss it with my players first, rather than just spring it on them. It prevented alot of resentment and bad feelings. And since I was making a game fr the players to ENJOY, it seems to me that what they do and dont like factor into it a great deal. If my players overwhelemingly did NOT want a change, I didnt do it. I might try it from a different angle, but the point is that whatever it was that they obviously did not like, didnt go into the game. Why should it? Its one thing to cater to a players every whim, but you HAVE to respect the players' opinions and wishes when you plan to market a product. Right now, AC is floating on player loyalty, and thats about it. Your attempt at a sequel has bombed, in large part to the fact that you didnt listen to the feedback offered at teh end of the beta, when players told you wit aclear concensus that we did NOT like the changes that were made. You shipped it with them anyway, and proved you dont give a fig what we had to say. I would think yhou would take a page from that book and learn form it. When you disregard what players tell you (which is what you are doing when you go ahead with this change, regardless of your resasoning), you are saying to us that our feedback doesnt matter. If you are so anxious to test out this new functionality so badly, make a clone of the WW and make THAT debuffable. Offer some sort of incentive for using it so ppl will actually try it out. But leave the ones currently available ALONE. We like the way they work, regardless of how it may work in a grou as opposed to 1v1. So listen to us and leave it alone.

[indignity]

ugh... debuffable weeping, in my opinion, is a horrible idea...

1 vs 1 in melee vs mage... I play a lvl 190 UA, and vs any mage w/ PvP experience... I really just have to rely on my healing and wait the battle out til I get lucky and land crits in the right places... it's a matter of my dodging, knowing when to heal, and when to just tank the wars and go after it that wins battles for me... and I really don't see myself as overpowered

of course, on FF, things may be different since everyone there wears al 400+ armor... I'm sure that on DT where people wear more GSA and stuff that weepings are overwpowered...

either way, I don't see debuffable weepings as the answer

I just know that it means that I'll be going back to phantom... which could use a buff, btw... maybe give it 1 point of damage rather than 0 =/... or maybe a variance that won't let me hit for 1 point of damage on full power after vulns... w/ maxed str coord and UA

[Virindi Clown]

That dev post has NO comment about why it is so necessary to completely ruin archers or melees in small fights and gives TONS of FALSE information.

Saying weapons were debuffable for 3.5 years is entirely, 100% wrong.

How many YEARS have hollow weapons been in the game? How many YEARS were they the only PK weapon used by melees?

Debuffed weapons in that time did ZERO damage. ZERO! No one "adapted" to hitting for ZERO damage! They did not use a weapon that could not do damage! They used hollows!

Then came tinkered weapons you say? Yeah, and PHANTOMS and UPGRADED HOLLOWS which kept them in use even longer, NEITHER of which were debuffable.

PEOPLE DID NOT USE ARS ALL THE TIME IN PK THEY USED PHANTOMS BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT DEBUFFABLE AND COULD HIT THROUGH BANED/TINKERED ARMOR!!!

I used to hit people for 7 sometimes with my AR after level 7 imp and vuln! Phantom crit for 30 something, how is that comparable?

WEEPING IS JUST A BOOSTED PHANTOM TO KEEP UP WITH CHANGING TIMES!!!

99% of what was said in that post is COMPLETELY WRONG.

[LordShadowz]

After reading the comments of both Ibn and Orion, my fears have come true.

They say they are listening, but they aren't. Basically they are going to do what they want and hope for the best. If it don't work out, who cares what inconvenience, what carelessness, they have shown their community, they will get over it. This mentality really upsets me. It's a Microsoft mentality, I never expected it from Turbine. As I said in a past post on this thread, your continued responses have made me lose faith. And since beta I always had the faith in Turbine. Alas no longer.

We are told we have to wait, to actually try the weapons, to see how it goes. Why ?? We already KNOW whats going to happen. It's a no brainer. And just so you, Ibn, and you, Orion, know I will not be using my melee come patch day for player killing. There is no point. I refuse to lose my stuff in battle, I refuse to be your guinea pig, when you simply are not listening. I will use my mage and kill whatever few morons decide to try their melee or archers in battle. I will Loather, Vuln, and Imp, and then arc them to death. The nice part is I will be able to neuter them in just 1 button, and if they pull out another weapon, I will debuff that one also. They can't neuter me at all :)

You will have done nothing to balance anything. You will have only frustrated a lot of people and destroyed the balance you actually did create. But I guess what I and many many others have said don't matter. This is my last post here.

I have been playing this game a long time, for the first time I am contemplating moving on. I am pissed off and disgusted. Most of the players are not new. We all have been here a long time. We have stayed the course through a lot of ****. There comes a point though when you feel your banging your head on a wall that doesn't have to be there. This is it for me. I have had it. You are destroying the little fun I have had with AC. You are nerfing characters and entire classes of characters while leaving others untouched. You are unbalancing a major aspect of the game. And when we all are sitting here telling you it, so you don't do it to us, we are ignored. We don't need to have the patch to know all this. It's common sense. We all have been playing a long time, its a no brainer to predict whats going to happen.

My question is, with the mentality, with the responses you've given us, Do you guys even PLAY the game anymore !?!?!?!?!

I am so amazed at your reasoning and responses.. it seems like you guys are living in another game. Either way, you say you are listening, but you aren't.

Come patch time, you will see a majority of what was said in the posts on this thread will come true, and you will be forced to change it all back. I am in disbelief that you are willing to upset so many, for a change that isn't going to do anything but unbalance what you've already done a nice job of. I can tell you this is not good customer relations. You've definitely lost my vote and support over this. And its not so much the actual change, it's you responses and mentality.

On Patch Day, MAGES UNITE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets rock the Melee's and Archers...


Billy

[Amuk]

I wish I was a mage. Just may have to level my lvl 35 mage some more. Course then Ill have to figure out how to slide and cast like I see other PK(L) mages do.

[AzulDrakkon]

Originally posted by Extinction
I pity the fool who thinks Blood Loather affects combat so much.

Seriously, unequip+equip the weapon at the right time you will lose maybe 1 swing..

Who are you, Mr.T?

[Darktider]

Virindi Clown just made some good points, folks.

I say Let a GoS clean your weapon too and I'd have no prob with this.

The part I really don't like about this is it complicates melee vs melee, which was nicely streamlined with the introduction of weeping weapons.

I've fought a million mages with my melee...I can kill most of them, but the really good ones are already impossible...this will just make more mages impossible to defeat 1 on 1.

Anyways, I always thought BL was just the reverse, failed, version of BD and really wasn't even meant for pk use...

None of this really matters...the weeping weapon is not the final, perfect pvp weapon melees have been waiting for. What we need is a weapon that does respectable damage without the need for imp or vuln.

A melee must be able to land 2 spells on a mage to hurt him, so he has to sacrifice for high life skill while a mage who already has the skill needs either 1 or 0 prep spells to do damage. If a mage gems then the melee has to get his wand back out and dodge wars while vulning and imp'ing...if a melee gems the mage just has to vuln him again real quick or he could use a rending wand which requires no vuln.

See how backwards this is?

Melees are still waiting...waiting for a weapon that doesn't rely on a high life skill to be effective. You gave us one once with hollows and then made them worthless...just make them worthwhile again....thank you.

[Extinction]

Originally posted by sylphia
If BL DIDNT make mcuh difference, then there wouldnt be such an overwhelmingly negative response to it. Even the mages can see that its a mistake, and WE are the ones getting the advantage.

The reason for the negative response ? Because people don't like the game being harder. Simple as that.


Originally posted by sylphia
And I will say it again: there is no skill involved in having multiple WW's, nor in being able to remove a weapon before it is debuffed, then put it back on. The first is totally unnecessary if they leave the WW alone. The second is a cheat akin to all the others curently being abused in PK. Reasons to cheat should be REMOVED not encouraged.

Sorry, no matter what way you look at it, unequipping a weapon is not a cheat.

Originally posted by sylphia
Why does no one have multiple holows or phantoms? Aside form the fact they dont do the job anymore...

A few days ago I fought a level 126 UA, on my level 126 mage. He used phantom on me, while I hit for 100-120 damage each hit (crits of 150-160ish) with 360 base war skill (mind you, 9/10 spells missed him), he did 113 damage on full power to me, and I think it was about 30-50 average after that.. if I was wearing a major slashing ward that 113 damage would still be 97 damage - which for an ondodgeable attack is pretty good in my opinion.

Originally posted by sylphia
If all you want to do is flame me, then I wont bother with your posts anymore.

You opened your post with a flame aimed at me, perhaps you shouldn't bother with my posts anymore, and use that time for something more constructive.. like looking for the word 'hypocrite' in the dictionary.

Originally posted by sylphia
Orion, the reason yo uare seeing such an outcry AGAINST the change BEFORE it is implemented is because we already know what the impact of BL will be, based on its affect on other weapons used in PK. And we are trying to stop this blatent melee-gimping BEFORE it happens.

Like I said earlier, Phantom is a very viable option, and they're not debuffable, so if you do get caught with a Blood Loather just switch to your phantom weapon, you might even do more damage with it ;)

Originally posted by sylphia
I used to DM quite alot. I even experimented with my own gaming system. One thing I learned pretty quickly was that if I planned to make a major change to the gaming system, I needed to discuss it with my players first, rather than just spring it on them.

It was discussed, in a little thing called "Melees are Totally Overpowered", mostly in the Darktide community.

Originally posted by sylphia
We like the way they work, regardless of how it may work in a grou as opposed to 1v1. So listen to us and leave it alone.

Once again proves that PKLite and PK need to be updated completely separatley. Gear PKLite more to 1v1, and PK to group fights.

Originally posted by Virindi Clown
Saying weapons were debuffable for 3.5 years is entirely, 100% wrong.

How many YEARS have hollow weapons been in the game? How many YEARS were they the only PK weapon used by melees?

How many years have melee done any good in PvP? Oh, about 0.5 years?

Before that it was only Mages and Archers - and archers could get BL'ed, and DID get BL'ed alot.

Originally posted by Virindi Clown
I used to hit people for 7 sometimes with my AR after level 7 imp and vuln! Phantom crit for 30 something, how is that comparable?

Were you playing a level 1? When AR first came out I quickly got a suit of al 300 base armor (Which can be seen at http://bakla.dogsicle.com/zaafamuli.jpg) and not once did I get hit under 10 damage by a melee, even when they were on the lowest speed.

Originally posted by AzulDrakkon
Who are you, Mr.T?

Yes.

Originally posted by Darktider
I've fought a million mages with my melee...I can kill most of them, but the really good ones are already impossible...this will just make more mages impossible to defeat 1 on 1.

I'll take impossible odds for a mage to die to a melee over impossible odds for a mage to survive 2 melees any day

Originally posted by Darktider
You should get out in the hotspots as a mage, you will notice you get alot more vitae than you would on your melee.

What we need is a weapon that does respectable damage without the need for imp or vuln.

Yeah, I need a reason to quit, this would be it.

People, please listen.

Instead of whining about the fact completely, whine about the fact it's being added to PKLite, PK needs this, PKLite may not, so ask for it to be changed in PKLite (easily done with a 'You failed to affect Weeping Sword with Blood Loather VI because Player is not a Player Killer')

[Darktider]

This wil be my last post on this thread and hopefully the last ever on these forumns...Yes I am down with VC, we are clanmates on DT and if VC doesn't know who I am then so much the better.

What I want to say is that I am not some *****. When I named myself Darktider I hoped this would be clear.

The one thing a DT'er hates is *****ing, yet he/she must endure it everyday.

I have been a melee, a sword, since month two of retail...I understand this whole situation....I remember the time when melee could not do a damn thing to anyone...yet do we care?


No!


Do what you will to us, nerf us as you will...there have been far graver times for us.

The melee's heart has propelled this game to where it is....not the slacker mage who wants it all easier than anything should be.

I only say these things because I want whoever reads this to know I want what is best....do not think I am whining!

I love this game... and congrats to Turbine for buying the franchise....mucho love my peeps.......

[yakisoba_noodle]

Hmmm. Patch comments:

Armor imbues: Will I try for an imbue on any of the armor I have? Nope. Still not worth the risk.

Marketplace location change: HooRay!

Weeping Weapons: This is the biggie, isn't it? The Turbine position appears to be that something was broken in group PvP, and that mages had to be given more tactical choices to make the game more interesting, while archers and melees had to be challenged with being able to swap out their weapons before they can get debuffed.

Orion then states that he would feel uncomfortable changing anything until it's playtested Live. The community has adapted to change in the past, and he feels it will do so again.

I feel that this misses the point. Archers with weeping bows were able to compete in PvP for the first time. The Phantom bow was not the answer. Now, I feel you'll see fewer archers and more mages or UA melees again because archers just can't compete with the mage if you take the weeping weapons away via the simple application of Item magic. Orion, Live testing is an oxymoron. You have test servers for this sort of thing. Furthermore, Orion, your position that the community will adapt is nonsensical. Of course they will! The community will become mages, and cease to complain! Is that what you were after? Adaptation for an archer is to become a mage. There, spelled out for you. Cease the cop-outs, please, and reverse this silliness with weeping weapons.

[Jaul]

Well, the housing changes are great, armor imbues i haven't really found too effective as of yet, maybe patch will help in that. Creature missle attacks should be pretty nice, the whole weeping thing isn't that great though. I don't play Darktide, so i really can't say about group battles, but i do occasionally 1v1 pk, and melees/archers are really ineffective against a mage to start with so why make them that much more ineffective? I play an archer and a mage, even with the weeping it's nearly impossible to kill a mage with really high health and good armor with an archer. PK has almost always been mage orientated, it really will remain to be it seems to me. Seems to me though that debuffing weepings will be bad, but in all honesty, the folks i fight are decent enough that i don't think they will loathe my weapons. They'd rather fight me straight up with no inepts or loathes, the way it should be :)

[Bad_Seed]

As the turbines have not responded the way I think they should have in their posts on this thread, I do not know if my opinion matters. I am completely against the WW change. I have never posted on this forum until today and I have never felt the need to do so until I read about the nerf. I have been playing since December of 1999, just one month after the game had come out. Altogether up to date I have spent some $1040.00 on your game, with the initial cost, monthly updates, and your expansion pack. I hope this alone gets your attention. Your ignorance absolutely amazes me. As a business owner myself, I know I cannot please everyone. I will share with you a little business secret that successful companies preach over and over again. Aim to please the MAJORITY of your customers. Now I know you think this weeping change was for the better, but you will find that most of your customers know more about this game than even you. I know what is going to happen, and so does anyone else who has played this game for any significant amount of time.

I have nothing more to say, I will just say that demands from customers who have spent thousands of dollars on your game should hold your attention a bit better. I wonder if it would change anything if the people on this forum were represented by how much money they have spent in the past. That is, after all, why you created Asheron's Call, is it not? I sure know it isn't charity work you are doing. Don't hide it, just make sure your ears are open to the majority of your income. :)

You are a great team of programmers, but in the past you have shown your back to player response and went about with what you wanted to do. This was a good thing, why change it?

upset,
Todd Taylor

EDIT: come to think of it, three days from now marks my first day of AC four years ago! Happy anniversary to me! :)

[Idhitit]

Well, unfortunately the weeping weapon changes were implemented, despite a rather large amount of disagreement and anger over them. I'm not sure why Turbine bothers asking the playerbase about changes such as this, because once again, it's obvious they don't even listen to them. I saw very few people posting anything positive about the changes, besides a few disgruntled mages, and quite frankly I feel a bit betrayed by the fact that Turbine included this change despite the outcry from most of the players...

Anyway, I still enjoy the game very much, I just wish other classes besides mages could get a taste of power in pvp...

[Virindi Clown]

News flash Extinction. Almost anyone with tinkered armor has al 400+ armor on every spot. Many have 450+. You hit that on a spot with baned clothes, you can do 7 on your minimum damage.

[AzulDrakkon]

Originally posted by Extinction
Assuming that means any more melee love/mage nerfs, then the cancellation of my 3 accounts is also coming.

Turbine could we get some melee love and mage nerfs?

[Extinction]

Originally posted by Virindi Clown
News flash Extinction. Almost anyone with tinkered armor has al 400+ armor on every spot. Many have 450+. You hit that on a spot with baned clothes, you can do 7 on your minimum damage.

I assumed when you said

[quote]Originally posted by Virindi Clown
I used to hit people for 7 sometimes with my AR after level 7 imp and vuln! Phantom crit for 30 something, how is that comparable?

You meant when AR first came out, noone had al 400+ armor back then.. besides, in al 600+ armor I tested my brothers level 100 sword guys damage on me once and he hit for 20-30+ every time with AR frost sword..

[Virindi Clown]

Ok I didn't mean when they came out. I meant in much more recent times.

But gd, 20-30 is not right. I don't do that with weeping sometimes.

People told me something was wrong with my char or something. I always had high str and sword (maxed str and over 400 base sword now so highest damage possible) but until the weeping bonus was bumped up I didn't hit people for jack ****.

It's possible I had some sort of wi flag. I really did not hit people for anything until the recent change.

I used to crit guys in gsa for 80 with weeping. Now I get what everyone else does. I don't know how to explain that. I didn't raise anything a bunch on my char or anything.

And I still think debuffable weeping weapons was not a good solution to anything and just causes more problems.

[Ivanhoe]

1vs1 i get loather
4 of them vs 1 of me i get loatherd

loather loather and more loather

This was the worse idea ever created .

Remove this BS along with table bugs.


You cannot effectivly balance out group fights (which is supposed to be the reason why we have everyone loathering today) without also hurting 1v1 fighting.

You HAVE efectivly made pvping a joke for a archer or melee.

NO MATTER THE ODDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Extinction]

To dodge a war while attacking: You have to press at least 3 keys.

To dodge a blood loather: You have to press 1 key.

[Ivanhoe]

melees are over powered??
wtf r u on?

oh must be only a mage ...........



try playing all three classes.


And IBN

The vault DT forum is a joke.


Also why wouldnt you check out the Game issues board over on crossroads of dereth website?

I only see big negative posts there and the info there by posters are 10000x more accurate then dt vault forum.(vn boards)

[Ivanhoe]

This is a simple case of a devs gets what a dev wants in the game.

This happend in ultima online years ago when they asked their customers if the PvP server should be WIPED (due to a well known bug that all other servers have lived with for years)

The % was to not wipe the server.
The devs decided to go with the minority and wiped the server

The result was a half empty server that never recovered

The name of the place was Siege perilous.

[Spoiled]

please forgive me for not reading all of the posts but im going to give my two cents...


ive always been a decent pvper as a mage, but i love playing my UA much more... UA now sucks compared to what it was when i first clicked play on DT.... Not just because of this patch but many previous to it... This is just the end all since you dont have to target the weapon anymore to BL... I dont use any 3rd party programs to detect people casting on me so in group battles im screwed without BL UA does minimal damage... Understandable i mean it costs less than sword... Then again sword can deal more damage than war at times and you cant dodge a melee hit like you can a war...

That being said are melees over powered? Not at all, mainly sword. Does this mean debuffable weeping weapons are good debuffable, from my mages eyes yes, but that is just because i enjoy feeling superior over others. I havent even bothered logging my melee on since this patch, too busy getting DIs from loathering and leadening... It does take a lot of the challenge away from playing a mage, which just makes being an uber pvper easier (i mean comon, you added uber weapons, then armor, allowed us to macro, allowed us to xp leech in chains, EBAY... the list goes on and on... most people arent GOOD pvpers they have good characters) for people who play mages (i suck and ive gotten a lot of kills this patch).

Where am i going with this? stop making it easier/harder for one class try balancing it by reduction. I feel bad for people who truely start here and dont get powerleveled and stuff... I cant imagine in seeing a level 200 swordsman coming at me in half stoned GSA at level 61.


try adding real content instead of tables... maybe an alernative to weeping weapons that are dropable or something... look at ac how it was back in the day... atlans were good but not this godly, you could get better...

[Virindi Clown]

Extinction, you forgot the part where you press a button to rearm it again, and then press 3 buttons to dodge the war now coming at you after you stood there.

That is the single worst thing that has ever been put into this game.

Hey lets make group fights more balanced by putting in an inept that affects only melees and archers that will just get you killed trying to cast it on a group of melees but completely ruins the game 1 on 1!

AWESOME!

[yakisoba_noodle]

So? Orion? Ibn? Any comments from your player base about the weeping weapon changes? Let me rephrase: Any positive comments from non-mages? Now that the changes are live, Orion, what is your opinion of the balance shift?
--Yak

[Ibn]

It usually takes a while for things to really settle down in PvP after a significant change. We are watching the feedback, as always.

[Brader]

Time will not change anything with this huge nerf. Melee's & Archers once again became completely useless in 1 vs 1 fights and no amount of time can change that fact.

This nerf was a mistake, and the vast majority of the feedback you recieved prior to, and subsequent to the patch all paints this picture as clearly as possible.

The only thing you may see in time is people get tired of giving you feedback which goes completely ignored. Then they stop providing feedback. And then the melees & archers go back to playing their mages (if they have one).

[purple]

i dont spend 2 years leveling a melee only to get him wasted by some "new idea" that turbine has. pvp was great as it was before - please put it back.

could you please point to the _positive_ feedback you had about this (posted by melee players)? i haven't seen any at all.

[WarriorWraith]

It took me almost 2 years to get to where I felt comfortable trying PvP on Darktide.

With every monthly update over the last 1-1/2 yrs, you guys have attempted to balance tweaks on archers and archers weapons against mages. You have nerfed every great weapon an archer could have and made it almost impossible for anyone not using a tinkered weapon to have a weapon that does excellent damage aka the +110% or +113% or +120% or +130% weapon.

The Hollow bow does decent damage but the other ravenous type weapon has horrible stats.

You guys nerfed the Isparian Bow and then the Weeper by decreasing its mod to +98% and now you have made it possible to decrease it even further. You might as well have just removed the bows from the game.

Worse than that, you've made the Elariwood droppable where it should have been like +150% or +166% bow and no-drop.

Just when you give us something good to use, you manage to tweak it down always saying archers are too powerful with it. I don't understand your logic. Mages are the most powerful adversaries in the game. Yet you always manage to dumb down the archers.

I'm a bit fed up with this and want a weapon that archers can have that is no-drop, at least +150% that a mid level char can use without having 290 base bow skill or 270 base bow skill. A weapon that is a quest weapon and will work well for both RPk and Non-RPk play.

If this falls on deaf ears, so be it. I know I am not alone on this.

Thanks

[AzulDrakkon]

Originally posted by Ibn
It usually takes a while for things to really settle down in PvP after a significant change. We are watching the feedback, as always.

COME ON...The reason its not settling down is because the change was wrong....no offense to you or your staff, but you keep saying you listen, and then you post like you don't hear.

[Virindi Clown]

We were asked. We spoke. We were ignored. We tried it. We are still speaking the same thing.

And we were pushed away even with the chance during the hotifx...

[Ivanhoe]

The devs will pull up some numbers like this


"day 1 we had a huge outcry about how it was a bad idea"
"day 2 a big outcry but less then day 1"
"day 3 a smaller outcry then day 2"
"day 4 less people are posting about how bad of an idea it is"
"day 5 This weeping idea MUST be great! hardly anyone posts about it anymore"
"day 6 No one else is posting negative feedback (or positive) on the new weeping changes!"
"day 7 Looks like we were right! The ac players love the weeping changes"
"day 8 See told ya if we waited a few days that the same people will stop postin feedback and eventually it will look like it really isnt a majorly bad flawed idea after all"

[Vincent Duare]

What whould you think of a new server .... with no sings/lvl 7's/
and a restarted game events from day 1 the game has gone on for 4 years.
i personaly whould love to go back to day 1 no reg weapons... 80 mod bowswere uber :)

[Vincent Duare]

i have heard that turbine is adding ac2's graphics to ac1..... maby if this new server idea was added when they put the new grahpics in it whould be a huge hit to get people come back to the game i have beta tested all the other online games and played many of them as well and that is the number 1 thing that former ac players wish whould happen is a server restarted from day 1

[Ivanhoe]

it wont be ac2 graphics
It will be much improved graphics wise though.

They have already said it takes 5x as long to do things in ac2 then ac1 due to all the graphics/textures/polygons etc So it wont be ac2. But will be much better looking then the current ac1

[Vincent Duare]

aye . so what do you think about that idea for a new server to help kick off and bring back the ac player base and make those playing happy :)

[sylphia]

Unfortunately, putting us back in AC's Stone Age isnt going to do much. It would be a nice novelty server for a while, but it will quickly become boring and wearing. The thing that made the "good Ol' Days" what they were was the newness of it all, the feeling that no one had been where we were going before. Not kowing what was out there. Its all been done, we know whats out there, and nothing would be new. It would just be a matter of time till you started wanting to come back to the regular servers, where all the issues from old AC have been adressed.

Dont get me wrong, I miss the Dawn of AC myself. There are still plenty of things added each month to keep me interested. There are plenty of places in Dereth I just havent gotten around to exploring. But that sense of wonder just isnt there anymore. A re-skinned monster doesnt really change the critter itself much other than graphically. A higher level version of the mob only makes it tougher, not really new and exciting and UNKNOWN.

If you want to recapture the sense of wonder, you have to make major changes to the game that push it FORWARD, into things you DONT already know, not backwards into things you already know what to expect.

Think of it like this: Louis and Clark didnt garner all of their fame because they poked around in their neighbors' backyards. They got it for forging the first trail from "civilization" to the Pacific. If it had already been done, there wouldnt have been much point to it.

The first person to sail or fly around the world (sorry but historical names are eluding me at the moment) had the sense of adventure and got alot of recognition. Now its pretty common place, and the only time you hear about it is when they do it in a new way, like SWIMMING around the world.


The point is, once you've done it, there is no recapturing that "first time" experience. Cloning the old world doesnt remove your knowledge and experience of it. You can "pretend" its the first time, but you would really just be going through the motions. You could equate it to looking through an old picture album. You can remmber what it was LIKE when those pictures were taken, but you cant really experience it the same way again. The first trip to DisneyLand will always be the FIRST trip you took; even if you go back 1000 times, you will never be able to do it the FIRST time again.

I would love to recapture some of the feelings of community and newness that was the hallmark of AC back then. But creating a time-machine server wont really do that. :(

[Ivanhoe]

great post sylph

[Vincent Duare]

here's my background.. i miss learning spells personal tapers n all . going getting lvl 6 scrolls and taking them to turn into lvl 7's it added a aspect to the game that was fun instead of buying them from a bot. i miss sub. trading in sub was a HUGE part of ac.
i miss being able to use quest weapons for hunting (underline triple time). ac is a game that lets the players do what they want basicly compared to other games... why not have a server back to the way ac was .. for those that dont wish to go down the leg of uberness and wish to play the game like it was whouldnt hurt anything ... feel free to devote the funds my acount generates torwards paying the staff to make this happen :P

[Ibn]

Originally posted by Vincent Duare
i have heard that turbine is adding ac2's graphics to ac1.....

This is not true.

[Vincent Duare]

aye that was corrected in the post up a little bit

[Crimson-Ghost]

As much as I like this game, I'd have to say sylph made a really great post. I have quit AC numerous times to try out other mmorpgs and they are all fun but after the grand unknown factor kinda wears off, none of them have been as fun as AC. So, as always, after a month or two of a new game I renew my account and come back to AC. The main problem I've always had with ac is that I get bored with my characters and always want to try something new, so i'm perpetually sub lvl 100. However, this doens't go to say that I haven't loved every minute of playing this game, its been a blast. So, with said affliction ive had the ability to play pretty much every type of characters (even TW, mace and spear.. before they were any good). With that said I've developed a few opinions.

Mages:Playing a mage is really fun and exciting and it does seem to take alot more thought on how to kill your target because you have to manage mana ect. However, the downtime between kills coupled with the insane micromanagement (although many plugins have made it much simpler during recent times) make it not so much of a fun class to play for me.

Melees: These guys are nearly the exact opposite of the spectrum, they have little to no downtime to kill monsters (excluding higher lvl vulns ect) and take relatively little thought about tactics. This makes them much easier and much more fun to play because, really, your rarely sitting around doing nothing. However, the swing swing kill, swing swing kill treadmill tends to get old pretty fast and makes them not that fun to play.

Archers: The great in-between, initially when I played archers they were incredibly gimped, I started with an archer on DT and at the time comp bows were considered the best weapon you could get for an archer (excluding some nice mod 90s with good stats). As the game progressed archers received a bit of love (maybe some 12 or so months after I started playing) in the form of greater arrows, then deadlies, then some quest bows (caul bow, sing bow ect). For a short while, archers had become all the rage for PvM and PvP, as they were doing incredibly well when WW first came out, over time however players adapted and archers kinda had dwindling time in the spotlight as patches more geared towards melee/mages had come out (more melee than mage but none the less both)

Sorry for the long backstory but it has a purpose, and that purpose is this. Archers have been the only class that keeps ac fun for me, they have a nice balance between the mage's "thinking man's Asherons" and melee's "no brainer kill fest". Fortunately for me, archers have kinda come on theyre own with a fairly good balance for PvM and PvP, or at the very least one I could deal with. The primary thing that balanced PvP for archers was the addition of the weeping bow, a weapon whos damage and invulnerability to a mages debuffs made it possible for archers to deal respectable dmg to a mage (when he did manage to hit him). With the new debuffability of WW the tides have turned completely for archers (and to a slightly lesser extent melees). Extinction has said numerous times in this thread that it is not hard to hide a melee weapon when a mage goes for a debuff, as did Orion mentioned it would be a test of skill. Well heres the thing about that, faille bashere (sp?) wrote the spell words script which has been used in many plugings, so now most people see "Archmage Deathscyth says "Aethil Zapage" *Blood Loather* (Lol i know this is the wrong words but bear with the example) and they can simply press "1" and tada no target. That takes all of the skill of gr.1 I think to read the line that says what they're casting. Now you brought up the point that if a weapon gets debuffed archers/melees with have to think about carrying reserve weapons. Theres 3 big points on this I'd like to cover,

1) It doesnt matter how MANY weapons we have, a mage can always press the button one more time and debuff it, unless of course its a hollow or phantom weapon (which are useless, except in groups). So this serves only to eleminate wws in PvP and turns it back into the ua gank fest it used to be 1 year ago.

2) Although melees typically carry one weapon of each element on them (or atleast.. I do) and have a fair a mount of strength they can handle having backup weapons. But what about archers? The need to carry a backup weapon for PvP is pretty much non essential since we only change our arrows to change our element, so we are not forced into the same constraints as a melee. So now archers have to carry around 2,3 or even 4 bows just *incase* the weapon gets debuffed (*note* chances of mage debuffing your weeping bow is pretty close to 99%). What purpose does this serve? Not only does it increase the already overburned archers (micromanagement SUCKS) and pretty much makes it essential to start with some innate str on an archer (further making the template less competitive) but it ALSO means that we have to find the money and resources to come up with a few bows that all have good stats and are competitive. So essentially this will be costing us Stats AND Cash to tink up a bunch of bows with pierce rend and 150% mods, not to mention find low value 130% mod bows with nice stats (which is getting increasingly harder as the months go on).

3)When a melee hides his weapon its simply a matter of putting it back on and re-entering attack mode to keep attacking. Like Extinction said, "you would miss 1 swing", although this is a generous alotment it really doesn't hinder the melee more than he already is having to dodge wars and not get owned while stikied. HOWEVER, for an archer he has to remove his bow, re-quip it and then draw an arrow to enter combat mode. This may not seem like a big deal, but try doing it 5-6 times in a row and see how tedious it becomes, or better yet try doing it on an Xbow. Not only does this make it take even longer to try and hit your target but essentially eleminates the chances of an archer getting a shot off before the mage tries to debuff the weapon again. Also, when a xbow has to load his model bends in half, which makes it even MORE predictable for mages to know when to dodge and when not to. So now its THAT much harder to actually hit your target, never mind worrying about the gimped out dmg your gonna do after your weapon is debuffed.

In most cases this will only hurt pvp by creating alot more stalemate and alot more gank fests, I mean it all comes down to a few simple scenarios.

Mage vs Melee - 1v1
Mage attempts to vuln Melees weapon
Melee hides weapon
Melee gets 1 hit
Mage tries again
Repeat
Mage eventually heals or drains melee for minor dmg from 1 swing attacks
Back to square 1

Mage vs Archer - 1v1
Mage attempts to vuln Archers bow
Archer hides bow
Archer starts to load his bow again
Wash, Rinse, Repeat infinately until 1 or more people come in to interfere for one side thus ending the 1v1
*this is even WORSE for xbow, giving them pretty much 0 chance to get a shot off before the mage pulls another debuff*

Mage vs Melee - Group
Mage portals in
8 UAs with hollows gank mage
GG we just time traveled back to 2000...

Mage vs Archer - Group
Mage portals in
Archers machingun and deal 15-30 dmg a shot
Mage systematically debuffs all weapons
Archers run away dodging like sissies and mage is lost in the dust with his 175 base run skill

Now im all for trying to balance out the game, and yes it seems like melees and archers have been having the better times in the PvP area as of late (more melees than archers) but in all seriousness, why bother trying to turn the game back a few months and essentially resetting PvP to the mage only 1v1 bore fest it has been for years?

It seemed to me when Turbine bought AC from MS (which I was absolutely thrilled at, and prompted by current return to AC) that their intent was to maintain integrity with the fanbase and heed they're voices along with attempting to increase the fun and balance in the game. As good intentioned as this patch may have been, many, MANY people who have played the game for years have spoken to you and told you that it will merely serve to reset the PvP scene back to the way it used to be a few months ago (thus eleminating all progress that has been made in an attempt to balance melees/archers with mages).

I will conclude this lengthly post with this, Turbine, I LOVE the fact that you guys are taking the game back, it feels like the little guys won in a way and kind of gives us all hope that you guys will treat our opinions with respect and help the community grow by a strong reliontionship between the players and the devs instead of merely being a large corperation trying to turn a profit. Please do not mess up your credibility and trust with your fan base by ignoring that fact that the majority of people who have posted here have posted negative feedback concerning the changes to WWs.These objections have come from all kinds of players, both melees/archers AND mages and most say that this will be of detriment. So please, PLEASE listen and try to think outside the box like we know you guys can.

Thanks for taking the time to read this huge post,

P.S: I'll still <3 ac regardless, but I'd rather not be forced to stay white for a few months just to test out something we know is wrong :)

Please excuse spelling/grammatical mistakes.. its like 3 AM here and im exhausted lol..

[LordShadowz]

Amen Reverend Ghost !!


So IBN, what is the word on the Weeping Weapon changes ? It has been 3 weeks and must be coming up to the time, or past the time, when the prop is complete for January.

[Killz al-Evil]

The Lttp was just as good as always, it gave us an idea of what was going on without nessesarily spoiling the suprise. i hope the january one is much like it.

[Ibn]

Originally posted by LordShadowz
So IBN, what is the word on the Weeping Weapon changes ? It has been 3 weeks and must be coming up to the time, or past the time, when the prop is complete for January.

There are currently no plans to take away their debuffable qualities in January.

[Barnacles]

Hi Everyone,
First off let me give you all a little background on myself. Im in the millitary currently serving in the Middle East since last April. I came home in December for a couple of weeks worth of R&R. I had been following all the changes to the game on Maggie's site the whole deployment, so I was excited to try PKL. When I got home I saw how effective the WW's were and thought, "now I've got a chance against a mage!". I never really came to the boards, I've always spent my time hunting and having fun doing it. I tried PKL a few times while home and all the fights lasted only a few seconds. How can you have any fun if you die so fast. And why go through a five minute buff/bane cycle all for naught. Why don't i just go around droping Plats on the ground!! At least someone else would be able to use them!! HA! What I'm trying to say is that I agree with my fellow players, nerfing the WW's was a bad call. On the other hand now I can get back to what I do best, smashing and bashing on mobs!!!

Also a little side note someone wrote that playing a melee and just hacking and slashing your way through life gets boring quick. Obviously that person has never tried to solo a mob with creatures 50-75 levels above their skill. If you want to feel your heart race like crazy try that. If not go back to hunting mosswarts and mites and try not to fall asleep at your keyboard.......

[Crimson-Ghost]

That was me who said melee gets boring, and yes ive played a maxed out melee char and fought the toughest creatures on dereth as well as my own lower lvl sword toon and fought in VOD. Trust me, once you get good enough at melee it gets old... unless you play a completely gimped out class that has a hard time killing AI controlled mobs. *chuckle*

[Ibn]

I'm going to close this thread as we've moved on into discussion of future January content. However if you have further feedback on December content, please post it on this thread (http://forums.turbinegames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=400). Thanks!