AL 430 base Amuli, buffed, baned, with asheron's robe buffed, baned [Archive]

I gotcha

02-06-2004, 11:52 AM

quit crying about sword...NO they should not lower the damage! It takes way too many pts to spec for them to reduce the damage on sword! IT should hit higher as it cost frikin a ton of credits to spec! Don't like it then reroll a sword guy! You damn mages have been over powered for years and when they finally put something close to a balance you guys feel robbed! Well guess what he is not critting for that every time...what are the other hits...30 to 50 max I bet! They have already let you bd our weapons now you want to reduce the damage! Give me a break!

Lutieus

02-06-2004, 02:03 PM

^ Biased much?

CouchAttack

02-06-2004, 02:05 PM

Hey Gotcha, it costs us the same amount of credits to TRAIN WAR, than it does for you to SPEC SWORD. (no)

I gotcha

02-06-2004, 02:17 PM

Yeah...I know! How would you like your damage reduced on war! We spent just as many pts and never hit as hard as a mage can! So reducing the damage is not worth it! If they do reduce the damage I will make my guy UA...that way I will get all the extra pts back! See what I am saying....!

We hit harder because we gave up more than the UA guy did!

Lutieus

02-06-2004, 02:28 PM

Um, no. Specialized war costs 16 to TRAIN, PLUS an additional 12 to spec. Sword costs 16 to spec TOTAL. There's no accessory skill out there which you HAVE to have that mages don't need, too. Maybe on your carebear server PKLs can get by with war trained, but half of DT is resist-spec, so we pretty much have to spec war.

Al Neo

02-06-2004, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by CouchAttack
Hey Gotcha, it costs us the same amount of credits to TRAIN WAR, than it does for you to SPEC SWORD.

yeah war costs more

on the other hand .. a mage only has to raise

3 attirbs ... end focus self the melee > 6 ..... as in all of them

4 schools war items life criter > 3 schools has to put at least same ammount into them bec of his lower base stats in self and focus

magic def of mage > owns any magic school of a melee

mage has wand and the ability to knock the melee out of the fight with drain 7 and bl 6/7 while the melee on the other side cant even touch the mage nor has the possibilty to do the same .. solution > his sword

war costs 28 to spec but sword and melee cost 36 to spec .... guess what ... 3 attirbs vs 6 attribs ..... much higher magic skills in game where magic is essentiel to even compete vs low magic unless you spend a crapload of xps into each school ...

Lutieus

02-06-2004, 02:43 PM

Meleers don't need melee d any more than mages do. It can be nice to have, but in no way is it required.

The solution to being blocked by a mage's magic d is simply to use a better template. My UA's spec'd life, with 60/50 starting focus/self, is only a few points behind the magic d of mages (at about the same level) with spec resist and 100/100 starting focus/self.

It does suck that meleers have to use so many more stats than mages in order to balance their templates, and thus mature more slowly. Ideally they would be able to 1v1 effectively on melee skills alone.

I gotcha

02-06-2004, 03:46 PM

Yeah...telling them to go back to the pink server if they don't like being on DT!

Al Neo

02-06-2004, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by Lutieus
Meleers don't need melee d any more than mages do. It can be nice to have, but in no way is it required.

The solution to being blocked by a mage's magic d is simply to use a better template. My UA's spec'd life, with 60/50 starting focus/self, is only a few points behind the magic d of mages (at about the same level) with spec resist and 100/100 starting focus/self.

It does suck that meleers have to use so many more stats than mages in order to balance their templates, and thus mature more slowly. Ideally they would be able to 1v1 effectively on melee skills alone.

its pretty obvious (that you're wrong)

at high levels (which i assume you aint) specing and maxing melee is essentiel in order to fight other melees unless you dont want to be torn apart

yes you might behind a lil behind mages magic def ..... now ..... but once the char has to spread his xp more into his actual status of a melee ... archer .... or mage the gap grows and grows and grows .... in ac history hybrids have a long term presence .... BUT they are getting less and less bec of the more extreme direction of either template and due to weeping weapons off course.

Phat-DT

02-06-2004, 05:00 PM

ive agreed with just about everything al neo said. i nominate him for DT spokesman!

Virindi Clown

02-06-2004, 05:05 PM

The cost of being sword actually comes out very close to the cost of being mage.

The 12 credit difference isn't spent on one or even two required skills that mages don't have to have.

Instead, it is spread out between a lot of things that define a melee. You can take melee defense, speced magic defense, speced life (sometimes even critter), and are pretty much required to have healing. Yeah, mages can get healing, speced magic defense or speced life and make some use of it, but in no way do they NEED one or two of those to compare to other characters like melees do.

If a melee is very magic or melee attribute oriented, they basically have to go with specing one of the defenses or the other to be able to work.

Without good melee defense, you will die to any melee who has it. Without speced magic defense you end up with the worst of both sides and have the extra credits for skills that aren't going to help you past that.

It usually looks something more LIKE this:

Mage specs war and magic d: 40 credits

Melee specs sword and melee d, and trains healing: 42 credits

Now, I am not implying there that melees pay more credits. I am saying they are very close either way, and there are many combinations, but those are the ones most people settle for.

You have to think of it past the direct cost. You don't pay more for war so you can be the most powerful character type. Its part of a set of skill combinations that works out so that characters are all different.

If we all just picked one attack skill to make our characters different and the same skills past that, this game would just plain freaking suck, no doubt about it.

The credit costs are to balance it out so that one doesn't end up with so many abilities that they can become a character of any kind all at once.

CouchAttack

02-06-2004, 10:37 PM

I don't like Al Neo at all, and he gems WAY too god damn much.

But he knows what he is talking about.

Ayatollah

02-06-2004, 11:32 PM

rofl

Al Neo

02-07-2004, 07:31 AM

couch nothing wrong in getting dispelled when you fight agaisnt the odds like i do .... 2 vs 10 ... 2 vs 6 2 vs 4 .... gems help me surive it , gemming at even odds or with odds is stupid though, you have never seen me do that ...

Al Neo

02-07-2004, 10:15 PM

life magic trained for a mage is totally enough

Virindi Clown

02-07-2004, 11:02 PM

Trained life can still go way over 420.

You don't count that in on a mage, you basically count it on a melee, like I said, because you sure as heck aren't landing a vuln on a non-magic oriented melee without it speced.

Binky

02-08-2004, 02:47 AM

Sword costs 16 to spec (from untrained)
War costs 28 to spec (from untrained)
Resist costs 12 to spec (from trained since you start with resist)
Life costs 10 to spec (from trained...I'm assuming both the melee AND mage both had already at least trained this skill)

Melee can spec Sword and life for 26 points (specing life DOES offset the mages resist, even with 40 starting focus my specd life Swordsman lands on a MAXED out specd resist mage, I might have to dodge a few wars to land it, but SO WHAT....and life/focus/self are all still under 35 mill to raise on my melee).

Mage Spec's war and resist for 40 points.

Basically the mage pays 12 credits to the melees 10 credits (in the specing of resist to life), so a melee can't really "*****" that a mage has specd resist because that mage is paying more for his specd resist than the melee would pay to spec life as a counter to this.

The melee's extra 12 points he has left over can then be used to get healing AND missileD .... or .... meleeD.

Jason, I wub ya, but go look at treestats, the TOP level melees (at a level where the chara would have matured) RARELY have specd meleeD. The ONLY good thing specd meleeD is for is if you are fighting in the middle of a swarm of monsters and you get the luxury of also not being hit by the monsters while you fight, OR unless you have specd meleeD MAXED out meleeD/Cord/Quick, majors for all 3 and a 9 piece imbued +1 meleeD suit, then you MIGHT evade all the other maxed out swordsmen/ua's on the server enough to make a difference in a fight, but I doubt it, especially since where you went "Exteme" melee they chose to raise their magics so they'd have zero problem dropping a Gravity Well on you =P

Al Neo

02-08-2004, 05:39 AM

Originally posted by Binky
Sword costs 16 to spec (from untrained)
War costs 28 to spec (from untrained)
Resist costs 12 to spec (from trained since you start with resist)
Life costs 10 to spec (from trained...I'm assuming both the melee AND mage both had already at least trained this skill)

Melee can spec Sword and life for 26 points (specing life DOES offset the mages resist, even with 40 starting focus my specd life Swordsman lands on a MAXED out specd resist mage, I might have to dodge a few wars to land it, but SO WHAT....and life/focus/self are all still under 35 mill to raise on my melee).

Mage Spec's war and resist for 40 points.

Basically the mage pays 12 credits to the melees 10 credits (in the specing of resist to life), so a melee can't really "*****" that a mage has specd resist because that mage is paying more for his specd resist than the melee would pay to spec life as a counter to this.

The melee's extra 12 points he has left over can then be used to get healing AND missileD .... or .... meleeD.

Jason, I wub ya, but go look at treestats, the TOP level melees (at a level where the chara would have matured) RARELY have specd meleeD. The ONLY good thing specd meleeD is for is if you are fighting in the middle of a swarm of monsters and you get the luxury of also not being hit by the monsters while you fight, OR unless you have specd meleeD MAXED out meleeD/Cord/Quick, majors for all 3 and a 9 piece imbued +1 meleeD suit, then you MIGHT evade all the other maxed out swordsmen/ua's on the server enough to make a difference in a fight, but I doubt it, especially since where you went "Exteme" melee they chose to raise their magics so they'd have zero problem dropping a Gravity Well on you =P

life costs 8 points to spec from trained

the best melees on the server have .... guess what ...... melee speced

life/sword spec cost 32 points

and for you talking about melees .... you think the 2 times you play a melee a week makes you worth ranting about how to play a melee or melees experience in groupfights ?

i play both i know what i am talking about

CouchAttack

02-08-2004, 08:23 AM

Neo, for the average person, who hasn't whored to EXTREMELY high levels and have maxed out skills and ****, that high of life magic isnt enough.

Al Neo

02-08-2004, 10:58 AM

avg dter is lvl 160 ?

410 to 420 at that point is totally enough , no ?

Binky

02-08-2004, 05:17 PM

Jason, although I primarily play a mage, I played Railgun (a swordsman) for my 1st 3 months back to AC from my extended break. It doesn't take much action for me to see the damage I do to someone else with my sword or to know how much it cost me to train my skills keke =P

As for life only being 8 credits to spec....well then you PROVED my point not disproved it because that means melees spend 8 credits to spec life (instead of the 10 I said) to counter a mages 12 credits of specd resist =P

Mages at least have to train life magic too so the cost of training it should be deleted from the computations.

As for End/Focus/Self being a mages only "stats" needed to raise. What about the TON of 100 10 10 10 100 100 specd ua/sword/resist trained war mages that are appearing? Or what about a mage with missileD that has to raise his cord/quick also.

If you REALLY think it thru and do the math, it's pretty darn even accross the board.

Al Neo

02-08-2004, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by Binky
Jason, although I primarily play a mage, I played Railgun (a swordsman) for my 1st 3 months back to AC from my extended break. It doesn't take much action for me to see the damage I do to someone else with my sword or to know how much it cost me to train my skills keke =P

As for life only being 8 credits to spec....well then you PROVED my point not disproved it because that means melees spend 8 credits to spec life (instead of the 10 I said) to counter a mages 12 credits of specd resist =P

Mages at least have to train life magic too so the cost of training it should be deleted from the computations.

As for End/Focus/Self being a mages only "stats" needed to raise. What about the TON of 100 10 10 10 100 100 specd ua/sword/resist trained war mages that are appearing? Or what about a mage with missileD that has to raise his cord/quick also.

If you REALLY think it thru and do the math, it's pretty darn even accross the board.

As for End/Focus/Self being a mages only "stats" needed to raise. What about the TON of 100 10 10 10 100 100 specd ua/sword/resist trained war mages that are appearing? Or what about a mage with missileD that has to raise his cord/quick also

yep .. ever seen them in fights , those are the ones who are the weakest ... their skills arent maxed enough to either hit the normal melee or the res mage , hybrids..... useless

Binky

02-08-2004, 05:34 PM

I do agree with you on that one, there are very few "hybrid" templates that are effective these days....now back in the day.....................................hybrid melee/mages rocked.

/me misses my Atlan Staff

CouchAttack

02-08-2004, 09:43 PM

Neo way to pull that number out of (nowhere). I think you mean the average exp whores that are the only ones that show up on TS for 2312321 pages are 160 or higher.

Al Neo

02-09-2004, 04:52 AM

not really couch, i believe the avg lvl in groupfights at sith , bananaisland or candeth is 160

i dont count people camping newb outposts, holtburg or those spires

Lutieus

02-09-2004, 12:27 PM

So because the average level might be 160ish at places you frequent, that means the average is 160ish for everywhere else on DT, too. Nice logic.

Al Neo

02-09-2004, 12:28 PM

yeah it actually is .... bec thats where all the main pvping is

Lutieus

02-09-2004, 12:32 PM

No, it's not. All you can say is "the average level at those spots is 160ish." You can't determine jack about the rest of the server based on that.

Virindi Clown

02-09-2004, 06:24 PM

Ok some people posting about skill credits for different classes are being just plain stupid about it. I already added it all up and said what you do with the credits, and it comes out slightly different depending on what you are doing but it's always VERY close to 40 credits.

Go play a melee with no melee defense or speced magic d and see how it works. You count it, regardless. Mages aren't required to have magic defense, but it's pretty standard, so I went ahead and counted it.

A mage can EASILY get away without putting 1 credit into defense skills.

No one is even looking at the attributes. They also don't use coordination AT ALL and can get away with raising quickness to where it costs around 500k. Melee have to put a large amount of xp into every single one of them.

As for all this average level stuff and how magics compare, well my melee is level 162. His life is 148 mil/pt to raise, and it only buffs to 385.

MANY people have higher magic defense than that. That leaves me, on the average, with probably a 60% chance to land against people on DT. Maxing out my life magic would hardly change that, and should a melee have to do that, anyways?

I cast two debuffs. They cast one and start shooting something that is likely to take 80% of my health away while I am still trying to land possibly the first debuff of two. Now what if they inept?

A speced life melee has it FAR worse than a trained life mage.

Preka

02-10-2004, 03:00 AM

"Hey Gotcha, it costs us the same amount of credits to TRAIN WAR, than it does for you to SPEC SWORD."

That doesn't mean war should be the only viable PvP skill in the game. If your memory fails...it was - for a very, very long time.

Fact is, you can do something about the damage from a sword. It's called "blood loather". If there was a version that worked on wands, I'd use it religiously.

CouchAttack

02-10-2004, 04:08 AM

Preka, theres this thing called UNEQUIPPING AND HAVING MULTIPLE WEEPINGS.

Preka

02-10-2004, 04:39 AM

Yep. And even when playing a melee myself, I usually manage to keep a loather on an enemies weapon pretty consistently. Remarkable that mages can't seem to manage it.

Frank The Knife

02-10-2004, 08:53 AM

So in a group fight when one mage casts loather every melee/archer on the field should unequip thier weapon?

Make it at least able to be dispelled. Then we at least have a defence against it.

I gotcha

02-10-2004, 09:22 AM

Hey Perka..(no) I doubt you really know what you are talking about anyways! I am saying that it cost more to spec sword then it does ua! SO YES the sword should hit harder than BOW, Spear, ua, axe and anyother melee weapon! Never said it was more...I said to spec war and sword were about the same amount of pts! I still say if you nerf our damage on sword then you better nerf the war magic's!

Reducing the damage on sword is not a solution! If they do that then why would you even bother being a sword guy? If it hit as hard as ua then I would sell it back to get my extra pts!

Ifuritah

02-10-2004, 12:11 PM

I thought there was an item enchant dispell?

I also thought axe was 8(16) points as well?

If there was a version that worked on wands, I'd use it religiously.

No good to an archer... but melees have an aegis. Somewhat like a reverse loather, but you don't have to worry about casting it on multiple mages.

Now if only they could make an aegis bow or handle or something.

Virindi Clown

02-10-2004, 05:19 PM

The game was balanced around the aegis for a very long time. The game was balanced around no debuffs on weapons just the same. We've had weeping long enough, and there was phantom and hollow for years before that. Then they just threw debuffs in to make MELEES less powerful in group fights, where it probably isn't going to change anything 90% of the time or more.

And wait a minute, if its for melees, why does it nerf the already uber nerfed archers, who don't have the aegis, anyhow?

Oh, and axe is 6 to train, 6 to spec.

Saying melees can carry multiple weapons, disarm their weapon, or dispell just shows you are not looking at the whole picture, and should not even be speaking if that is all you are going to keep to.

I don't see any mages having to get tons of motes to make more than one weapon, keep their mana up, and lug them around gaining more burden and losing more pack spaces.

I don't see any mages having to try and dodge my spell that takes away 1/3 of their base damage. Infact, I don't even see a debuff for them at all and they hit harder, hmm...

And I certainly don't see anyone casting a dispell that caps at level 6 removing level 7 debuffs.

Ifuritah

02-10-2004, 05:25 PM

Hmm, did they change axe? I could swear it was also 8 creds.
I'm at work so I can't check.

{edit]

Saying melees can carry multiple weapons, disarm their weapon, or dispell just shows you are not looking at the whole picture, and should not even be speaking if that is all you are going to keep to.

Your talking to someone else there, right? [just making sure your not confusing me with someone else.]

Hmm, yeah I guess I didn't think about the level 6 cap on the dispell spells.

Ayatollah

02-10-2004, 05:26 PM

Preka, gb2ff o.0

Virindi Clown

02-10-2004, 05:55 PM

Yes Ifuritah, I was not talking to just you. And please forgive the seemingly ill-mannered nature of what was directed to you. I was just being sarcastic because the whole idea of PvP as it is and how it is not changed, and even worse as of late, when it is changed, is (bad).

Ifuritah

02-10-2004, 06:06 PM

Ah ok, cool. :)

Sucks that PvP seemed to be headed in the right direction for once and then gets thwacked by the (nerf) stick.

Lutieus

02-10-2004, 10:33 PM

Since Gotcha is apparently unable to READ:

Sword costs 8 units to TRAIN. Sword costs 16 units to SPECIALIZE. War costs 16 units to TRAIN. War costs 28 units to SPECIALIZE. Bow costs 8 units to TRAIN. Bow costs 16 units to SPECIALIZE.

BOW COSTS THE SAME AS SWORD. TRAINED WAR COSTS THE SAME AS SPEC'D SWORD.

Anyway....

Pretty sure axe has always cost 6 skill credits to train/spec.

Definitely wish there were a way to dispel level VII weapon debuffs. Kind of stinks that an archer or meleer's damage output can be totally hammered, and they can't do a thing to reverse it but wait until the spell runs out. Whereas magic school inepts can simply be gemmed off.

Binky

02-11-2004, 02:09 AM

"And wait a minute, if its for melees, why does it nerf the already uber nerfed archers, who don't have the aegis, anyhow?"

Yes but archers dont need str so they have an extra 100 points to put into either end for health or focus/self for magics/resist....also weeping bows do much more damage than even the feared weeping sword.

As jaded as you think certain classes are, aside from the underpowering of certain melee weopons, things are pretty darn balanced. The only melee skill that is/has ever been overpowered is UA. It's the second best weopon there is, and aside from staff/dagger it's the cheapest to spec.

Lutieus

02-11-2004, 02:58 AM

From what I've seen, the weeping bow does slightly less damage than the sword. In some cases it's actually more effective to use a +166% AR bow than the weeping, specifically against people in fully tinkered armor.

UA was overpowered in the days of the hollow and deadly hollow. Now although it still ranks second for best PvP melee skill, it's not overpowered so much as the other non-sword skills are underpowered. Really it's right about where it should be.

Virindi Clown

02-11-2004, 06:02 PM

Bow is worthless. Just for ONCE recent example, a level 126 archer was shooting me for 30-40 or so yesterday after someone debuffed me with level 7s. I fought him twice, and he never went over 50.

I don't even have missile defense, and I was on a level 95 mage with 260 health and only tinkered leggings, just al 200 baned armor everywhere else. He was no threat, whatsoever. A melee would have torn me to pieces if I had tried to fight in that situation.

I didn't even sit there wiggling. If you do that, you will NEVER get hit. And what if I had BLed him?

I killed two archers unbaned last month on my melee, and he does not have missile defense. I escaped another who had already debuffed me and was shooting before I even tried to debuff him.

Here is the ONE problem with archers: They are based on speed attacks, and the damage for them really is fine, but they cannot rely on that rate of fire with the current mechanics.

There are very, very simple solutions.

One would be to actually make the arrows move fast like they should. Atleast xbows should shoot as fast as streaks at close range. At long range, a bow's projectile shouldn't be any slower than an arc spell.

Their targeting is also stupid. They need to either have two kinds of arrows that give the same functions as bolts and arcs for targeting, or it just needs to be changed so it isn't the worst combination of elements of bolts and arcs. Right now it arcs at long range, and then is thrown off by even the slightest wiggling. That makes absolutely no sense.

I think the huge mess up with archers really is the only major balance issue. They have been completely taken out of the loop, and it throws other things off when it becomes mage vs melee almost every time.

A few points of progress have been made and certain things have balanced out very well. These things should not be touched:

-One on one or very small fights between mages or melees in any combination, from all mages to all melees.

-The power of unarmed combat in PvP. It has FINALLY been put in it's place after more than three years.

-Melee and magic defense serve good purposes instead of certain items being capable of replacing them (missile d is an entirely different story).

-Inepts do not make someone completely incapable of fighting.

-You can't get away with being no-drop and wearing armor from a vendor.

-Skill really does matter (even though the xp gap has widened).

AzulDrakkon

02-11-2004, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by Helob
Melee's weaping had Blood Loather 6 on it, he gemmed my vuln, proceeded to hit me for 50-60, with crits over 100, while it took me over 5 seconds to cast each spell due to lag.

Who's better the changes screw me even more ?

Anyone can post that.

*I got hit for 301 by a mage the other day, and then I died when he streaked*

Wow, you know my lie sounds more reasonable than yours....even though I have only 265 health on azul.

Dang, reading through this post I see many misinformed and/or ignorant (yet still yakking...) people

Mage_of_Dereth

02-11-2004, 06:51 PM

the most i have ever been hit for was 306 but i survived! And ended up killing him w00t for me lol

Ibn

02-11-2004, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by Virindi Clown
Bow is worthless. Just for ONCE recent example, a level 126 archer was shooting me for 30-40 or so yesterday after someone debuffed me with level 7s. I fought him twice, and he never went over 50.

Interesting -- some of your suggestions re: bringing archery up to par are very close to, if not identical to, the ideas we're working on internally.

Virindi Clown

02-11-2004, 07:12 PM

Oh thank God Ibn...

I just hate how an entire class is completely non-existant when there are only three in the first place.

That is literally the root of the balance issues people discuss as of late, and the reason I feel PvP has something very seriously wrong with it, even though mages and melees are quite balanced.

With only two viable classes, it becomes one on one, and we all know how the balance scheme goes with that. Give one something, the other whines, so you give something to the other, and more people whine, and so on.

The second archers become viable again, PvP is guaranteed to completely change for the better.

Dragonsrage_HG

02-11-2004, 07:41 PM

I am lvl 125 and every time I try to PK or PKL I get my butt handed to me by every lvl 126+ mage and archer. Reading all the posts on here it must just be im a gimp or just dont know how to play PvP. If any one would like to help me PM me or @tell me in game. I am on HG and my main's name is Dragonsrage.

Thanks,
Dragonsrage

Ifuritah

02-11-2004, 07:47 PM

You'll never really learn the real skills for PvP until your PVP 100% of the time in a 100% PvP environment.

Seriously, you learn it a lot faster always watching your own back. You should try DT for 6 months and see how you do.

Virindi Clown

02-12-2004, 10:01 AM

Well Dragon, that's why we of DT make fun of Ebayers. They expect to buy a level 200 and become a god.

You didn't grow up on that char as a real PK since level 1 surrounded by a thousand other PKs. That's the only way you would be able to be at a high level and just start killing people whenever. You have to give it a lot of time. Just practicing with someone once should help you out enormously.

AzulDrakkon

02-19-2004, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by CouchAttack
Preka, theres this thing called UNEQUIPPING AND HAVING MULTIPLE WEEPINGS.

Theres also a thing called imbalance, sadly not everyone is a max magic d melee with aegis!

Yet even a level 50 mage can hit someone for a good 150+ if they can get their spells by, so obviously war doesn't need to be spec'd...currently my UA/mage has 250 base war at level 80...(started 80/10) and has hit vulned targets for over 100s consistantly...odd, huh?