nProtect GameGuard

[Dante_Montana]

Could this detect 3rd party apps such as decal or any other for that matter. I know NCsoft has integrated it into there game, just wondering if it would help AC/AC2???

NCsoft has recently upped its efforts to dissuade cheaters and "bots" (characters controlled by programs allowing them to function without human interaction) in Lineage II by integrating the anti-hacking software nProtect GameGuard into the client last week. When a player logs on to Lineage II, GameGuard verifies that no illegal scripts intended to modify the game are running, and verifies the data stream to the Lineage II servers. Offending accounts will not be able to get the client to run.
"This has been a problem for just about every massively multiplayer game that has ever been published, " said Aaron Rigby, NCsoft's North American producer for Lineage II. "But with the introduction of this protecting software, NCsoft has taken a big step forward to protect players and end the nuisance that bots create, as well as keeping cheaters out of the game."

[Cezium]

I doubt the player base wants this. Those that do seem to be tolerant of tpa's enough to not leave over them.

[Dante_Montana]

ya the AC player base (ones who use 3rd party apps) would go NUTZ!

[ElgarL]

Lineage II is one of the most macro'd games out. Just the same as Americas Army. Both use this technology and Both are hacked so much it's unbelieveable.

You thought AC was macro'd up? Go play America's army and watch players run every cheat under the sun. Shooting you through fog at ranges that are impossible to see over. Openly admitting to running these hacks, and blatantly cheating.

AC has outlawed certain types of macro and they can be found and banned. These auto detection systems are a joke.

If it goes on yoru PC it can be cracked.

[MaddyFF]

If it goes on yoru PC it can be cracked.

Yup, that type of stuff mainly plays for PR.

[Yula_the_Mighty]

If it goes on yoru PC it can be cracked.
The problem is simple. Our gaming machines (PCs) are also the same machines that Turbine and these other companies use to write, run and test their software on.

The companies that use these programs use them because it makes good looking copy for the public relations. If Turbine started using this nProtect - the third party applications would take a hit until the third party developers got used to dealing with nProtect.

The less popular and unsupported appls would all go away. The popular applications would not be affected. There would still be route finding, combat, buffing, crafting, salvaging, looting and searching plugins to name a few.

Yula the Mighty - HG

[Dante_Montana]

lets give Elgar and the rest of the 3rd party programmers a big hand for screwing over the Online community with thier apps...

[Syclone]

lets give Elgar and the rest of the 3rd party programmers a big hand for screwing over the Online community with thier apps...


Lets give you a hand for being an idiot. Just becuase you don't like tpa doesn't mean they "screw over the Online community". Don't be so ignorant.

[Dante_Montana]

let me guess you use them? and cant play the game the way it's suppose to be played. boo-yeah for not being "able" to find anything or buff yourself.

edit* I can see if your handicapped then by all means use them

[MaddyFF]

let me guess you use them? and cant play the game the way it's suppose to be played. boo-yeah for not being "able" to find anything or buff yourself.

According to lore, some of the first "TPA's", including combat macros, were written by AC devs. So if AC devs wrote them couldn't one consider that tacit support for using them? After all if they are good enough for the devs...

Some of us use TPA's to track quest timers, given the lack of such a thing in the AC client or for helping to keep our spell bars clear of spells we only cast about every 55 minutes (self-buffing apps).

[Hatecc]

let me guess you use them? and cant play the game the way it's suppose to be played.



The way it's "supposed to be played" according to you?

I could care less how YOU think the game is supposed to be played. I care how the game developers think the game is supposed to be played. And they have stated dozens of times 3rd party applications and macros are fully allowed.

They have implemented macros from 3rd party programs INTO the game. Yes the devs have added functionality from 3rd party applications as well as macros.

/fillcomps is a macro they implemented
the "F"' key to combine is another macro
They added the % chance of crafting success.

All these were 3rd party apps, and there are tons more.

Please, spare me your crap and play the game how you like it. I'll play the game how i like it, fully approved by the devs.

[Renegade Knight]

I don't run third party aps myself, yet a lot of my friends ig do, you get rid of them, my friends get pissed off, they leave, I leave.

See, your plan will only bring the downfall of AC. You think that most of the player base is just playing AC for xp? Paying $12 a month to grind xp? No, they play this game to have fun, they play this game because of friends, because of people they meet. What would AC be to you? Would it be a finally be a game 'free' of this evil cancer you think it is?

I'll tell you what AC would be without third party apps, it would have shutdown, years ago. Why? Because AC relies on third party apps in a way, a lot of people use them because they let them play the game the way they want. I don't use them, simply because I've never really needed them, yet sure, I use buffbots in marketplace or at the allegiance mansion. Remove them, and you stab a knife into the AC player-base. You'll loose a lot of people who use them, and a lot of the friends of those people.

[Jessica]

There is some question about GameGuard's security:
http://secunia.com/advisories/13928/

So, it appears to/might leave a gaping hole in the defenses.

If the bulk of the community wanted some sort of watchdog spyware for this kind of thing, I'd be open to it. The problem with a PC-resident app is that it doesn't take very long to write code to bypass or fool them. We'd have to come up with a server-side solution, which has it's own share of issues.

After the expack launches and we have some time to breath, we ought to sit down as a community and look at the whole issue: which 3rd party plug-ins are benign and should be supported, which are malignant and what, if anything, we can or wish to do about it. I say "as a community" because it takes a lot of engineering resources to address this kind of issue effectively, so any work put into this subject would require a trade-off with new features published through the live process. Knowing that, I want you to know what you're getting into if you want those resources devoted here, :D.

[Gouru]

That will be an 'interesting' discussion. I have a hard time thinking of a SINGLE plugin that someone doesn't have an issue with.

Sixth Sense style plugins make looting and finding items much easier and faster. Not needed in other games as much cuz honestly, their loot sucks. The sheer quantity and variety of loot in AC (one of it's best features) is what has made these apps popular. Some people love the minutia of looking at each item, carefully reading the stats. Others just want to grab the loot and run.

Tradebots are built-in to most games, yet people complain that they have killed the 'trade' market. Other people are ecstatic that they've killed the trade market. Other people love the convenience to be able to shop at any time. Other people hate the fixed prices.

Buffbots are a godsend to a) mages that used to get spammed for buffs, b) rerolls looking through a quick way past the early levels; yet they also can detract greatly from the newbie experience.

XPH huds cause a focus on XP over everything else.

Third party website walk-throughs of quests spoil the 'wonder' of the world.

I aint gonna touch combat macros.

But for EVERY plugin that somebody hates, there are lots more people that love them.

I would love to see clear guidance on what in Turbines opinion 'enhances' the game, and what detracts from it, so can design plugins and future updates of Decal accordingly.

[Syrlacc]

If you'd just integrate long-overdue technology to the client many of these third-party apps wouldn't be necessary.

Add consignment vendors (AC2's work great, import that code), and eliminate most kinds of trade bots.

Use Aura Buff technology, get rid of buff bots. Or keep buffing tech as it is and add a simple, customizable buff script to the client.

Add a decent quest panel, eliminate the need for quest tracking plugins.

Add a trade skill "recipe book" or something similar that makes using trade skills less tedious and redundant, you eliminate most tradeskill bots.

Add regional and server-wide chat technology, eliminate some chat plugins and the need for players to have to resort to posting on message boards external to the game to get many trades and quest runs organized.

And so on. Some degree of customization and modding is great (like Winamp controls, custom skins or UI elements, etc), but some of AC's plugins alter the game experience so tremendously that people who elect not to use them are at a huge disadvantage. You'll never get rid of all of them no matter what you do, but I think that's hardly an excuse not to do anything about it, especially when you have the development resources available that you have now for the expansion pack AND several people on your staff who have created plugins in the past and should know better than anyone how to get similar tech added to the client.

[GKusnick]

After the expack launches and we have some time to breath, we ought to sit down as a community and look at the whole issue...You realize that by saying that now, you've just opened the door to all manner of TPA ranting and raving before the xpack launches.

[Hamfast]

After the expack launches and we have some time to breath, we ought to sit down as a community and look at the whole issue: which 3rd party plug-ins are benign and should be supported, which are malignant and what, if anything, we can or wish to do about it. I say "as a community" because it takes a lot of engineering resources to address this kind of issue effectively, so any work put into this subject would require a trade-off with new features published through the live process. Knowing that, I want you to know what you're getting into if you want those resources devoted here, :D.

Jessica,

As you no doubt realize, the issue on, as you put it, "Which 3rd party plug-ins are benign and should be supported, which are malignant" has been a long time, on-going issue on these and other message boards. Where Maddy, Yula, Renegade Knight and I (along with a few hundred others) may agree on the use of some applications, we will disagree on others. I have no doubt that being reasonable people, some accommodations will be able to be reached between some of us, but others will never relent when it comes to what is defined as a "Malignant Application".

I would hope that, prior to the "sit down as a community and look at the whole issue" a bit of time will be taken by the "Powers that be" (This is you folks at Turbine, on what will then be the live team) and a clear definition of what is required to be called "Malignant" and what is not. I would also hope that the "Should be Supported" will include "Not against the rules to use". In my opinion, the easy way to put this is (Primary)"Can a Purist do this?" and (Secondary)"Who will this affect outside of the User?"... Pass either test and it's not malignant.

As an example, I will use some well-known applications:
Gear - :mad: - Gave an unfair advantage by "Speeding Up" actions - Malignant because of the unfair advantage... a "Purist" can't do this, and it affects others because the "User" is able to do things just a bit faster (Fails both tests, Malignant)
Bandit Sight 2 - :) - Replaces the "]]]]]]]]]]]" required to "ID" all items, it does not give an unfair advantage in that a "Purist" can do the same thing - Passes the first test, Not Malignant.
dIRCal (old plug-in that allowed the user to chat on an IRC Channel with others both in and out of the game) - ;) - A Purist can't do this, there is no function in the game for this... but it does not affect anyone outside of the user(s), you could not tell that another was chatting on dIRCal... Passes the Second Test, Not Malignant.

Most will agree to this... (Again, some will not)

When the (Very Heated) discussion of Combat Macro's pops up, we can use the same measure...
(A)CM replaces the (Target, Imperil /Vuln as needed, Attack until dead) pattern a Purist can do (and will do) when they hunt... basic rules for attack types to use, to vuln or not, to attack High, Medium or Low is all knowledge a purist can have and use when they play... this means that (A)CM is not malignant because it passes the primary test...

By the way, using my two tests, UCM could be called "Not Malignant" in that a Purist (with a few cases of Jolt Cola or Red Bull) could do the same thing... but that is a different issue :D … But would not fail the current “Please Respond” test used to test for UCM.

<edit>
Purist = Someone who plays AC with NO TPA's of any kind at all.
</edit>

[Jessica]

You realize that by saying that now, you've just opened the door to all manner of TPA ranting and raving before the xpack launches.

It was going to happen anyway once this thread was started, :D. It seemed to make sense to get in early with the message.

The key here is that until Throne of Destiny launches, we don't have any cycles to spend on this issue. I say this so that no one expects anyone on the team to get involved in this discussion right now; we're just too busy crunching to get TD out the door.

[MaddyFF]

After the expack launches and we have some time to breath, we ought to sit down as a community and look at the whole issue: which 3rd party plug-ins are benign and should be supported, which are malignant and what, if anything, we can or wish to do about it.

I the majority of the community, including those that write TPA's would support this as we do want to stick within the rules that are set forth. Always going to be those that do whatever they can no matter the rules, but most of us would be happy to work on this.

[Gouru]

If you'd just integrate long-overdue technology to the client many of these third-party apps wouldn't be necessary.

...



If people would JUST pay me a dollar for each time they use the word 'JUST' to describe something that they aren't gonna do themselves, then I could retire.

But it just ain't gonna happen.

[Metonic]

I think When ToD comes out, we should have a meeting with the DEVS diffrent servers diffrent times. In which we'd vote for or Against 3rd party apps. If a Server Votes for TPA then Turbine can maybe help them out, make it easier for them, or make their own Apps. If we Vote Against it, Turbine can make it a little harder to make 3rd party apps, and those using them can be kicked off server when reported.

But if a Server votes no on Apps, then Players should bne given refugee status on another server that does allow TPA's. Since All Servers will more than likely vote For TPA's then the Anti 3rd parties will not havea world to goto.

So... Howbout Server Votes after ToD? Im sure the Devs can do it. Even have Absent T ballots. For those who wont be on.

[Cezium]

I think it's been said before that this is not a democracy.

[Metonic]

I know its not.. But.. I want Anti TPA people to shut up cause they aitn gonna get their way, best way to do that is make them think they will.

[vellus]

So...because the function right now is a TPA, it is bad, evil, no good for the game, etc...

But the minute the same thing is put in by the Devs, then it is suddenly good, wholesome, genius, a savior for the game?


So those that hate TPA would rather the Devs waste their time incorporating what is already there, instead of working on new stuff? By not banning certain TPA, that is essentially the Devs saying "yeah, if I could, I would have put that in game".

Because it would suddenly be "in game" would those that do not use the TPA's on principle still not use the function, on principle?

What happens when the Devs code in a tradebot functionality, and someone claims to get ripped of by a tradesperson? Suddenly the Devs are on the hook for it, whereas now, it is user beware, no Dev support or nightmare.


Is this just like the catholic church and their stance on "shacking up"? You live for someone for 5 years before getting married. The night before your wedding you are living in sin, then the next day, the only thing different is a piece of paper and a ring of gold, and suddenly it is OK?

[EshuunDara]

3rd party apps...

Honestly, I'd rather see turbine combat the "bad" apps that create performance issues (such as gear), and then hopefully address those that cause "balance" issues (buff bots, UCM).

As for the most common apps; I'd like to see turbine make them obsolete via in-game functionality.

Let's get rid of the vendor-bots by replacing them with an auction-house and an in-game mail system.
Let's build in the looting/radar scanning functionality that Tank and BS/2 make use of.
Let's improve chat channels so that dIRCal isn't needed.
Let's include better guild management tools so that plugins aren't needed for this sort of thing. It'd be nice to see who in your guild is on at a certain time, or build a tree of your allegiance, etc. It would be nice if this data also auto-updated a web server of some variety so we could look at the data "offline".

You get the idea.

[Vlad Morbius]

Yup, just like the discussions on whether we wanted the xp pack in May and were willing to forgo patches and long overdue fixes right? pfffffffffft please who the heck do you think you're fooling :rolleyes:

[Hamfast]

Is this just like the catholic church and their stance on "shacking up"? You live for someone for 5 years before getting married. The night before your wedding you are living in sin, then the next day, the only thing different is a piece of paper and a ring of gold, and suddenly it is OK?

I agree with the idea behind the majority of your post (or at least I think I do) but I wanted to point out the flaw in your final statement...

The Church's stance on "Living in Sin" did not change, the night before you had not sworn (before God) to each other that you will love, cherish and so on, so you were therefore living in sin (the ring and paper are just the physical representation of that promise). After you make the promise you are no longer living in Sin because you have made the commitment to each other (Again, before God). But even after 10 years of Wedded Bliss, that night before your wedding you were "Living in Sin" in the eyes of the Church...

I guess to understand it you need to understand and accept some Black and White thinking. (you know, Binary, 1 and 0, true and false... it is or it is not)

[Gouru]

P.S.

For what it's worth...the security concern listed is for an escalation of privilege of the app is for someone that has physical access to your computer. And if you are like 99.5% of home users, you already have NO protection for local access. You either have no login, or if you do have a login it is running at full administrative rights (since most games require that.)

I would not use the security concern as a reason not to use GameGuard.

I don't believe in it's use, but don't want people getting the wrong idea about the security risk.

[MaddyFF]

So... Howbout Server Votes after ToD? Im sure the Devs can do it. Even have Absent T ballots. For those who wont be on.

It shold be a blanket wide policy by Turbine unless they implement a special rules server. Having one server against TPA's, another for, another against some, and another against those, just makes a nightmare for enforcement.

[Syrlacc]

If people would JUST pay me a dollar for each time they use the word 'JUST' to describe something that they aren't gonna do themselves, then I could retire.

But it just ain't gonna happen.

Is it true or is it not true that the last major fundamental gameplay change was the addition of the tinkering skills, something like 2 years ago now?


So...because the function right now is a TPA, it is bad, evil, no good for the game, etc...

But the minute the same thing is put in by the Devs, then it is suddenly good, wholesome, genius, a savior for the game?

Not at all, but by integrating these things in the client Turbine retains control over the gameplay experience and ensures continued availability of these features to all players at all times.

[Arthell]

Just becuase you don't like tpa doesn't mean they "screw over the Online community". Don't be so ignorant.

I'm sure many people would love to argue this, but they have all quit. ;)

[Metonic]

It shold be a blanket wide policy by Turbine unless they implement a special rules server. Having one server against TPA's, another for, another against some, and another against those, just makes a nightmare for enforcement.

ah Yes.. but... How many people actually use TPA's? The Majority of AC does. On each server the majority of players use TPA's. So.. Would we have one with TPA's oen without, one with one without one with one without? No we'd have almost all with and there may be a chance that we'd have one without ofcourse, if you look at it if we did a vote we'd have a bleeding Kansas Server.

[MaddyFF]

ah Yes.. but... How many people actually use TPA's? The Majority of AC does.

I have no knowledge as to what percentage of the popultion uses TPA's.

[Serinda Arniman]

For what it's worth...the security concern listed is for an escalation of privilege of the app is for someone that has physical access to your computer. And if you are like 99.5% of home users, you already have NO protection for local access. You either have no login, or if you do have a login it is running at full administrative rights (since most games require that.)

I would not use the security concern as a reason not to use GameGuard.

I don't believe in it's use, but don't want people getting the wrong idea about the security risk.

The Secunia listing is a shortening of the overall problem.

I was one of the team members who uncovered the exploit in GameGuard. Actually, the security hole shown is just one of two.

http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/387574

http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/388812

You misunderstand what it means by local. It is not a local exploit as in it requires physical access to the machine. It only requires for you to trick the user into running code they should not.

Which if you keep up with the media any, you should already know isn't exactly too hard an objective to acheive.

Once you've run the application you shouldn't, the GG flaws will allow you to own the box and more.

nProtect Gameguard is a terrible product. It is a Rootkit. It uses undocumented systemcalls to elevate it's security status, write protect the application, and then ultimately hide the application from view.

To acheive this end nProtect patches and modifies running processes and .dlls in memory. This allows it to control system calls.

As you might can imagine mucking with such things is a massive compatbility issue. All sorts of legitimate things break. Take for instance ATI's latest Catalyst Control Center drivers. Incompatible and unworkable while nProtect Gameguard is active.

And for all this nProtect Gameguard has not stopped any cheating in Lineage 2. Instead the cheaters became more resourceful. They have created a fully functional reverse engineering of the entire client called L2Walker.

L2Walker is a stand alone application that has all the functionality and more of the Lineage 2 client. The Lineage 2 client distributed by NCSoft is no longer needed to play.

This is what you invite when you initialize an arms race.

So while NCSoft might push it out as the next big PR move. All they have presently is a customer retention issue.

http://boards.lineage2.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=gentech

Please scroll through the pages and pages of customers with issues and then take a look at the fact that they have no response or support.

NC does not know how to solve the problems. In fact they can't. They have to wait on INCA in Korea to do so. Some of these issues will never be resolved as it would require Gameguard to stop acting like a rootkit, which of course means weakening their "protection."

Jessica is right when she says a client side solution is pointless. She's also right in saying if the community wants it.

By and large the L2 community did not:

http://ryu_connor.shackspace.com/l2/gameguard.mht

That's a snapshot of a poll they did and subsequently deleted. It requires IE to view.

At this time myself and others think we've found a way to defang Gameguard. So we're probably just a few days away from breaking it totally.

P.S. It's Serinda Arnimane, but the forum seems to have eaten the last character of my name. :-P

[Flesheater]

One thing worth mentioning here I think is the fact that not everyone can use all TPA's. Some of them have banlists and actually keep track of people. There are a few TPA's I would never use because of their developers showing that they can not separate their personal opinion about people and simply missuse their positions as developers of popular TPA's.

[Kossuth]

Knowing quite a few l2 players I have to say I think their problems are 100 times worse than here.

The irritating thing about this discussion is I need to decide what accounts other than my 2 currently subscribed ones to keep going and which accounts to pre-order on. W/o third party applications such as eltank, ust and bandit sight the answer is none at all. As it was I had decided to resubscribe my other 4 main accounts by the 31/03 automatic deadline and then pre-order on all 6 when the UK buying details were announced, as I had invested so much time in all those accounts over the last 5 years, but now I'm back to the drawing board over that decision. That doesn't mean you have to use TPA's but for me the ability to play the game as I wanted has kept me here and paying subs for up to 12 accounts at a time for over 5 years. One of my closest friends has never used any plugins but plays an item only maceman. I have the greatest respect for him but I wouldn't want to play a low magic character or in that style. I love AC but that AC is far more than just the boxed game, its the other players and the applications, its the whole thing.

What worries me about a discussion is that doesn't that open the avenue of ucming again? How can you have a discussion on the most bitterly contested issue in ac history without including that option?

What happens if 50.1% say yes on something 49.9% say no - you lose massively either way.

This is a no win situation because it just causes conflict and frankly there are few enough people nowadays that we can really afford it.

Edit: Am I right that the person who kicked this off doesn't even play and has been in CoH for a long time???

[Elistra]

Metonic does not jest... the vast majority of players use TPA's of one kind or another. I would be hard-pressed to think of even five people who do not.

If Turbine ever starts picking and choosing between apps, it will be a veritable armageddon. :(

[otto mo beale]

>I know its not.. But.. I want Anti TPA people to shut up cause they aitn gonna get their way, best way to do that is make them think they will.<

Wrong answer.
If they whine long enough they always win.

Purist: Ban UCMs.
Turbine/MS: no
Purist: Ban UCMs.
Turbine/MS: no
Purist: Ban UCMs.
Turbine/MS: no
Purist: Ban UCMs.
Turbine/MS: no
Purist: Ban UCMs.
Turbine/MS: no
Purist: Ban UCMs.
Turbine/MS: no
Purist: Ban UCMs.
Turbine/MS: no
Purist: Ban UCMs.
Turbine/MS: no
Purist: Ban UCMs.
Turbine/MS: no
Purist: Ban UCMs.
Turbine/MS: no
Purist: Ban UCMs.
Turbine/MS: no
They eventually beat the issue till Turbies /MS gave in. If it worked once...

The funny part is. A good chunk of em dont even play the game any more.

Same thing happened with a half dozen nerfs.

If they conduct a 1 vote per account poll.... Id consider that fair. If you dont play this game any more your opinion is worth [self edit].

While it seems from above I support UCM... I dont. In fact I never even downloaded El Tank or various lesser known UCM proggies.

I do, however do run the following super mean nasty evil cheats: Ghud, TS2, ACTrade. Mwhahahahaha [evil music]. Oh and when I want Ralirea I run a truly ancient version of sixth sense.

BTW as one who can powerlevel effectively. My concern for xp/hr is no more nor less valid than anyone elses play style. I have pushed 2 toons to 135 with 0 passup. 0 UCM. 0 anything but a willingness to get down to business and kill LOTS of critters.

1 writ: 15 plats on X tradebot
1 scroll: 1 plat on Y tradebot
1 bag of steel: 15 plats on Z tradebot.
Not having to deal with "make offer" followed by some insanely high "I thought x price": Priceless.

Not having to deal with "buff plz" and "buff me" followed by "selfish *&^%$!": Priceless.

[Arch Magi]

Turbine had better dance lightly on the issue of 3rd Party Apps and what they plan on "banning" and what they don't. Their player base is already pretty pathetic now, I think that if they drive away too many more people, they will not survive to see the release of DDO or MeO.

They already ticked off ALOT of people with Chain Nerfs and the UCM ban, if they come down too hard on 3rd Party Apps, I can tell you for certain of 19 Accounts that will not be coming back.

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[longjoey]

You spend 246.05 per month on a game? It's a great game don't get me wrong, GEEZ

[Zifadel]

There are a # of plugins on Darktide that I am sure the majority of the population would be glad to see gone (as well as would bring back a # of players too).

Minipk: War/Player Detection
Bloodthirst: More advanced version of Minipk
OgThirst: Detects players in dungeons using guids when they shouldn't normally be allowed to see them.
A number of other 'privateized' plugins only available to members of those guilds.

You should disallow decal completely on Darktide.

[Yeti]

ogthirst is the pimpest plugin ever. just fyi

[Arthell]

Contrary to popular belief I doubt finding a way to actually prevent TPAs would result in fire, brimstone and the devil himself erupting up from beneath the Turbine devs to consume their souls, damning them for all eternity.

As much as you want to believe that will happen. ;)

[Zenra_Icewind]

I suppose if something like this would come into play, a vast majority of old decal-spoiled players will be mad. I admit, I'm decal spoiled too, but not to the degree that I can't do anything without it. I'll get over it.

I know people who are so spoiled into decal they refuse to play unless it works. My roommate is the perfect example of this. In the long run, things look great, but it's always best to look at the small picture, before you look at the big one. The small picture holds just a tad more detail than the image as a whole.

Yes, looking by hand for loot is a tedious task, and breaking salvage into grouped works is menial and repeatative, but look at the bright side. It would appease people like, oh say, Sweet Mary/Heart of Thunder. And possibly, stop her harrassment of the players. With her out of the hair of everyone, then maybe the game will turn back into something more enjoyable.

[MaddyFF]

If Turbine ever starts picking and choosing between apps, it will be a veritable armageddon. :(

Main one that would upset people is if they go after automated combat, attended or not. Too many people would have zero idea how to play their mage if that happened. :p

[Zenra_Icewind]

That's very true. At least I have the general gist of how to play my mage. ;)

[Elistra]

They eventually beat the issue till Turbies /MS gave in. If it worked once...


They did do one thing for us... prior to this, we pros were a very loose coalition. We cared relatively little for politics compared to now, and focused mainly on our own disparate goals.

What happened to UCM galvanized us into a single, formidable political bloc. This bloc even spans worlds. For example, last summer I received a very warm welcome in Verdantine's Tusker Holding due to my work for the cause on Turbine's boards. :)

They won't find it so easy this time... *evil chuckle*

Let me draw an analogy for you, regarding decal. Yes, you can gather and chop wood, for use in heating your home and cooking your food. You can rely on a horse and buggy rather than an automobile. You can live without internet, electric lighting, indoor plumbing, refrigeration, and all modern conveniences. You could return to the simple rural living of your distant ancestors. The Amish live this way, every day.

Now, let me ask you something... do you want to live like that?

Probably not.

It is the same with decal.

[Hamfast]

Main one that would upset people is if they go after automated combat, attended or not. Too many people would have zero idea how to play their mage if that happened. :p

Maddy,

I think this is the normal misconception...

It is not that we don't know how to play our mages without Eltank, it's that we choose not to.

The reason TPA's are a good thing with AC, there are some issues with the game that some people find objectionable, those same issues (for the most part) are exactly what other people find to be fun... People "Choose" to use the TPA's (or not) to enhance their play...

The main fear of all Game Developers (Like Turbine, Sony, SquareEnix and so on) is that people will "Choose" not to... if using Eltank gets us to choose to play, Turbine wins... if stopping TPA's causes the players to "Choose" not to play... turbine loses... With the Decal options, each of us can "Choose" to slightly modify the game to make our play more enjoyable (for us) so we choose to play... Turbine wins

[nahsr]

I honestly do not understand the problem with TPA's I dont use them none nada zilch zero. That said almost everyone I hunt with uses them. What difference does in make, they use i dont. They dont effect the way I play, and just because i choose not to use TPA's doesn't mean you shouldn't.

[MaddyFF]

I think this is the normal misconception...

It is not that we don't know how to play our mages without Eltank, it's that we choose not to.

My preception on this issue (and preception forms reality) is based on listening to people in my allegiance and some friends in other allegiances. They have flat out said they couldn't play a mage without plugins (mainly El Tank).

[Mad Moya]

So... is it really mages that are overpowered, or are they only overpowered because they macro most of their stuff? :eek:

It seems to me the best way to get rid of the overabundance of mages is to take away their macros... then they'd be on a more even playing field with the rest of us.

PS - I'm joking :cool:

[Arthell]

if stopping TPA's causes the players to "Choose" not to play... turbine loses...

And if stopping TPA's suddenly causes an influx of old players that replaces those that were now quitting ... Turbine wins! ;)

[MaddyFF]

So... is it really mages that are overpowered, or are they only overpowered because they macro most of their stuff?

Heh, I got into a discussion about this once when a mage claimed that all mages use a combat macro. I pointed out I didn't and never had and was told I was the exception. I due tend to agree with him, most mages I see are running a combat macro.

[brian great]

And if stopping TPA's suddenly causes an influx of old players that replaces those that were now quitting ... Turbine wins! ;)

Seem to me the nerfing of the xp chains, is when we lost the most old players. There were alot more people before that.

[enoch_VN]

[QUOTE=Dante_Montana]let me guess you use them? and cant play the game the way it's suppose to be played. boo-yeah for not being "able" to find anything or buff yourself.

Ignorance at its best