Why the Weeping changes do NOT affect melee power -- they simply add skill. [Archive]

Televangelist

12-06-2003, 01:19 PM

Back before Weeping Weapons were introduced, there were bow and melee weapons that hit for significant damage -- they were called Armor Rending weapons.

They were fully loather-able, too.

Did they actually *get* loathered? Of course not.

The melee, as soon as he saw the spell words for blood loather, would pull his weapon in at the right moment, whip it right back out (or hop out of range of the spell), and then hop right back into battle.

It added *skill* to the melee equation -- it wasn't like with the way a weeping weapon is now, where the melee kids just jam down the delete key and hope you die.

Now, not only is this returning to the way it *always has been*, you have a chance to resist the spell!

A melee PK's Magic Defense -- which is traditionally rather high, but not uber -- versus a mage PK's item magic skill -- which is traditionally rather low, usually just at the threshhold for not fizzling 7's.

The melee will have more than an insignificant chance to resist the spell outright, even if he's *not* skillful enough to pull his weapon in and out.

In a real group PvP fight, the changes will not affect melee/archer damage at all -- because a skilled melee/archer will never be hit with Blood Loather.

Emphasis on the word "skilled" -- skill is finally coming back into the equation for those two classes.

Which is, in my mind, a good thing.

AzulDrakkon

12-06-2003, 01:36 PM

Wish skilled would come into the equation for mages :D

Really though, archers require more skill than mages at the moment, unless you choose not to prepare for them, then it is easy for them...melees do nothing else but swing because something else hasn't been integrated yet...when that jumpspin alternative is added, skill will be back. Never say these classes don't take skill because you know that mages hit 2x as hard easily can cap run to the miniscule 400 skill cap, have effective missile d and cast 7s perfectly. meanwhile you're complaining because archers can hit for a piddly 30 and try to dodge your wars which have a much larger radius and track about several times better. I hate to tell ya but the solution to kill melees is simple...bring the 10x tinked out of the stash and war/drain/streak.

TerrorScout

12-06-2003, 01:57 PM

To most of the melee PK now that are killing every one thy fight are Life/Sword Speced so thy start there attack with a wand then switch to there sword use a gem of stillness as thy attack the mage starting his war spell unless the mage uses a gem he is dead before he can cast 2 spells.

Also now that there are 4 more weapings in a month or two every melee will have 5 no-drop no-give weepings.

Thy will have to revuln for the other weapon type unless thy have 2 of the same type.

For PKers I would start Muleing Gems of Stillness and charging them with full mana.

There may be a day soon that whoever runs out of dispel gems first is the loser.

I’m still looking for a auto Dispel plug-in that dispels every vuln and or imp cast on you instantly using the cheapest dispel item for that vuln level higher then the minimum dispel level.

Gems are instant and have no time cost to them.

Instead of fighting over the best XP spots on Darktide thy will fight over the best Dispel Gem Monsters.

If I cant find one I may use it as a Programming Lesson.

AzulDrakkon

12-06-2003, 02:12 PM

Anyone can gem though...mages and melees alike, if someone gems and another doesn't apparently they didn't take exception for those who will win at any cost.

Televangelist

12-06-2003, 03:42 PM

99% of all fights are group fights.

In group fights, gems aren't really a problem. That's what Awakeners are for.

Virindi Clown

12-06-2003, 06:24 PM

Yeah, I really want to show off my skill at pressing a hotkey and pulling my weapon in and out.

That's real cool. I get to watch them cast a spell to make me hit for less and ruin archers while they shoot a war in the time I rearm and run around helplessly.

And you do what to make mages hit less? Melee damage was upped so high to contend with mages, so now it gets taken away and the mage keeps the advantage?

The comment about something for mage skill I am just going to disregard. They can delay cast, fast strafe, slide all over, even make your spells go off a little early for you giving you a timing advantage if you are good at it. Their spells also give them the most options and versatility at hand.

Mages have the most opportunity to make use of skill of anything.

Casting a spell on someone to make them hit for less is not part of that.

Andiglo

12-06-2003, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by Televangelist
Back before Weeping Weapons were introduced, there were bow and melee weapons that hit for significant damage -- they were called Armor Rending weapons.

They were fully loather-able, too.

Did they actually *get* loathered? Of course not.

The melee, as soon as he saw the spell words for blood loather, would pull his weapon in at the right moment, whip it right back out (or hop out of range of the spell), and then hop right back into battle.

It added *skill* to the melee equation -- it wasn't like with the way a weeping weapon is now, where the melee kids just jam down the delete key and hope you die.

Now, not only is this returning to the way it *always has been*, you have a chance to resist the spell!

A melee PK's Magic Defense -- which is traditionally rather high, but not uber -- versus a mage PK's item magic skill -- which is traditionally rather low, usually just at the threshhold for not fizzling 7's.

The melee will have more than an insignificant chance to resist the spell outright, even if he's *not* skillful enough to pull his weapon in and out.

In a real group PvP fight, the changes will not affect melee/archer damage at all -- because a skilled melee/archer will never be hit with Blood Loather.

Emphasis on the word "skilled" -- skill is finally coming back into the equation for those two classes.

Which is, in my mind, a good thing.

Why is it a melee has to be skilled to make it fair where a mage against a melee does not.

MomentofClarity

12-07-2003, 08:04 AM

^ Please dont say anymore about pk man lol

Its common sense why a melee needs skill to fight a melee. Maybe because they have to run up close to attack and run around to dodge arcs and bolts?

Brader

12-10-2003, 08:32 AM

Tele, then I'm sure that you would embrace an idea of Melees being able to "Loather" yours (and mine) weeping wand with what would be the equivalant of a bloadloather. Say reduce the damge of our wars by 40, 50 or so percent if you didn't hide it in time?

This would add "skill" right? Why not ask then for you wand to be able to be debuffed with a bloadloather?

I'm sure, judging by your post above, that you will love hiding your wand all the time! It is skill man, and what is good for the goose, is good for the gander :)

It would be great! Melees hitting for next to nothing, and Mages hitting for say 75 - 100. And we could all spend 45 minutes jerking each others chain waiting for the other person to pull out their weapon or wand to debuff it.

Let the express shuttle to nowhere depart!

Edit: I love this part of your thread:

"A melee PK's Magic Defense -- which is traditionally rather high, but not uber -- versus a mage PK's item magic skill -- which is traditionally rather low, usually just at the threshhold for not fizzling 7's."

And since there was no motivation whatsoever to increase a Mages Item skill before, and now there is every reason in the world, and it costs them next to nothing, I wonder how long until a Mage might figure out to put XP into their item skill??????

Here is a clue as to when: We are already doing it!

By the time the patch rolls around, most mages will be casting Bloadloather on their melee opponents, and we will have spent relatively little of our total xp to ensure that it will rarely ever be resisted by a melee.

Genji-Glove

12-10-2003, 12:25 PM

What all you o.O posters need to try is PK'ing after the patch where weeping weapons are made debuffable and you will soon see it won't make a hell of a lot of difference.

NO ONE EVER USES BLOOD LOATHER

If someone does, pull in your weapon.

And for that comment about making mages wands debuffable, first they would have to make wands buffable with Blood Drinker to do that which would mean more power for mages.

Paraduck

12-10-2003, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by Genji-Glove
What all you o.O posters need to try is PK'ing after the patch where weeping weapons are made debuffable and you will soon see it won't make a hell of a lot of difference.

NO ONE EVER USES BLOOD LOATHER

If someone does, pull in your weapon.

And for that comment about making mages wands debuffable, first they would have to make wands buffable with Blood Drinker to do that which would mean more power for mages.
That might be true on DT, but it's not true on o.O servers. It happened to me frequently on MT

Hubbell

12-10-2003, 06:22 PM

Sorry to say this Paraduck, but too bad. PK should and IS balanced to DT and not the white servers because PK is our way of life so to speak, it is our chosen path of play and it is a choice that means we must deal with PK'ing almost all the time and then support ourselves with DI's to not lose our items. PK on the white servers before official PKL was what I considered PKL. You can go red at any time/white at any time and never worry about DI's really. PKL means you can fight other players with NO RISKS therefore nothing should be balanced to how PKL goes on the white servers.

Andiglo

12-10-2003, 06:34 PM

There is a true difference from DT to the 'white' servers.

I don't think that BL will make much difference on DT, but on the rest of the servers, it really adds even more power to mages.

Maybe in Feb we can get something like I can cast magic with my melee weapon or bow. That would be nice.

Genji-Glove

12-10-2003, 07:51 PM

The problem with the introduction of PKL is that it is much different than PvP on DT.

This is not good for DT because the majority of PvP is done in PKL on white servers where people are usually fighting 1v1 where on DT the majority of fights are multi-player fights. Both types of fighting are completely different and require different changes in order to balance them out.

Ashanor

12-11-2003, 06:48 AM

" Back before Weeping Weapons were introduced, there were bow and melee weapons that hit for significant damage -- they were called Armor Rending weapons.

They were fully loather-able, too.

Did they actually *get* loathered? Of course not.

The melee, as soon as he saw the spell words for blood loather, would pull his weapon in at the right moment, whip it right back out (or hop out of range of the spell), and then hop right back into battle. "

Umm, ya, back when you had to actually fish for the melee's weapon buying him some time to hit you a bit so alot of people didn't even bother with the spell. Now you just press target nearest enemy and cast. If they hide their weapon so what? You can just cast again and make them keep hideing the weapon until it lands. As for you who say that blood loather isn;t casted you are blind. It isn't casted because it can't be casted now. As soon as it can be casted on the weeping it will be common place.

Paraduck

12-11-2003, 07:46 AM

Originally posted by Hubbell
Sorry to say this Paraduck, but too bad. PK should and IS balanced to DT and not the white servers because PK is our way of life so to speak, it is our chosen path of play and it is a choice that means we must deal with PK'ing almost all the time and then support ourselves with DI's to not lose our items. PK on the white servers before official PKL was what I considered PKL. You can go red at any time/white at any time and never worry about DI's really. PKL means you can fight other players with NO RISKS therefore nothing should be balanced to how PKL goes on the white servers.
It's balanced to DT? Doesn't seem it since most DT players are whining about it constantly. However, many things carry over between PK/PKL, so it really DOES have an effect. Everyone has a voice in this.

AzulDrakkon

12-11-2003, 10:58 AM

Genji/Hubbell....I think this has already been brought up but you know it used to be look for the wepon...now its click...debuff, bam.

In raids if you hear "equin aeril" from a hostile everyone with weepings puts them away and disables the melees/archers until they are done...is this in any way fair...nope.

Genji-Glove

12-11-2003, 06:10 PM

You just click on the person an do the item debuff now?

If that's the case, that might make debuffing weapons a little bit too easy.

Andiglo

12-11-2003, 06:41 PM

Recently in a previous update, you can just click on a person and cast the item spell. No need to select the weapon

Virindi Clown

12-13-2003, 05:19 PM

It is too easy. Everyone will just cast it right away.

You might as well just subract 22 damage from any weapon in fights now. That's ridiculous.

That is the worst idea to "balance" things. It kills archers and is sure as heck no solution for melees being too strong in group fights.

It's fine 1 on 1 and that's where it will be used the most. Melee against mage, the mage just debuffs him right away. That's just stupid, stupid, stupid.

Yeah you can take away your weapon, or carry more than one, but I don't see mages having to make a bunch of them. I don't see them having to dodge my debuff. I don't see them even affected by a debuff PERIOD.

Just throws it off even more.

Darktider

12-13-2003, 05:31 PM

Oh well, melees are used to stuff like this...archers, too.

Hubbell

12-13-2003, 11:32 PM

Noone ever said you have to finish the fight... just run.

Andiglo

12-14-2003, 10:36 AM

This is what turbine is creating, a world of melee's who will never be able to play PvP with mages on an equal playing field

Multiple choice:

Turbine...

(1) they don't care
(2) they disagree, but refused to participate in a debate.
(3) they agree, but don't know how to fix it.
(4) they cannot fix it.

MomentofClarity

12-14-2003, 11:36 AM

Why does everyone think DT and pk is always suppose to be 1 on 1? Where did you get this idea from?

Andiglo

12-14-2003, 01:10 PM

On DT getting ganged is the way of life, on the other servers, attacking in a ganged is a show of weakness. So most non-DT PvP wars are contests 1 vs 1, to see who is the best. The fact that a mage will never loose 1 vs 1 to a melee or an archer, means that a melee or archer must team fight to stay alive.

It would be nice to balance it out, at LEAST (staying on topic) don't make it worse for melees and archers by giving mages BL and not giving it to melee's and archers.