Face to face pvp vs. AC

[Shao Majii]

Folks talk about DT and say "it was balanced when ____". The problem is our current dev team wasn't around for the golden years (forgive me if I'm missing the one dev who MIGHT have been...)

So, we can't use abstract "just had to be there" explinations of balance.

I KNOW, it's all been explained before... I'm gonna take a different approach to explaining wtf good pvp is.



Ever play Doom with other people? Ever play Halo? Or maybe JK2?
The object isn't to survive, the object is to kill and die!

Let me explain what I consider fun in a PvP enviroment. Now, keep in mind, I don't play DT much and this is not about AC, but pvp in general.

I play a LARP (live action RPG) where I take fake weapons, and beat the crap out of other people with fake weapons. Some of the other folks are spell casters. The point isn't so much to win, but to have a freakin blast trying.

I happen to be one of the better fighters in my area's group (knighted for it even). I try to teach folks how to someday compete with me. Why? Not because I want to win, but because I want a challenge, even if it'll take them a few years to catch up enough to even be a threat. Frankly, I love finding a really good fighter who can make me look like a no-skill-havin-fool, because it means that >I< am not done improving (they're out there, I just have to get TO them, which is kind of hard currently). The thing about these folks is their attitude is similar to mine. They're at the very top of the stick-jock ladder and have been fighting eachother for years. They want new folks to step up to their level, just like I want folks to step up to mine. Someday, if my knees hold out, I'll be at the tip-top of the food chain.

What makes AC DT different? Well, I don't really know. I'm nowhere near the top of the food chain, in fact, I'm just an old school carebear who likes the action from time to time. But I personally never feel like I get the same sport out of it as I do swinging my sword with the best of the best at a park.

So far, people are too busy talking about who sucks and tooting their own horn instead of talking about who's the best. N00bs should be able to hear the names of the top fighters and hear about thier uber keyboard mashing skills. Nobody brags on skill when they see it, they complain about not winning.
When I see a fighter who does this awsome spin shot or a perfect sky-hook or scorpion (really cool shot over the shield to the back or shoulder), I throw out a compliment, even if their target was me. Everyone knows the names of the best fighters, what group they're from, and wonder when they'll get a chance to fight that person again or for the first time. I hear about it when someone wants to meet me or fight me.

Equipment takes a HUGE roll in pvp on DT. If you don't get a weeping weapon and/or a hollow weapon, you're basically out of the game. If you don't spec life, you're out of the game. If you don't get tinkered armor and/or wards, you're out of the game.
Well, that sucks in my not-so-humble opinion. When I pick up my uber 5th gen sword out at the park, I can still be killed by someone with 2nd gen gear, IF they have the skill to step up. I can do the same. Equipment isn't anywhere NEAR the factor that skill is. I can take nearly ANY sword and compete with others in my skill bracket.
This is, IMO, a HUGE problem with DT. Someone dies and what is it we hear? "so-and-so has wards, 380+ health and max tinkered armor, of course they're hard to kill". WTF? Why should that matter? Shouldn't pvp be a sheer test of skill? Why does equipment have to play such a large role? I have never played a GOOD pvp game where equipment had such a large impact on play. At least not that I enjoyed much. This is why I don't play DT all the time. Too much of a have/have-not battle. I could care less about getting tinkered armor and such. I just want to play on a basically even keel. Not much fun when I can simply be out equiped, xp'd, or templated. I don't mind getting my butt handed to me on a silver platter by skill, but this stuff is for the dogs.

I think the best thing about DT was back when there was something to actually own. Something to hold by force. It gave unity to the groups and factions. Some where just there to take something and hold it as their own. Some were there to take EVERYTHING, and others were simply there to stop the people who wanted the world to themselves. There were those who simply just wanted kill people because they could, and there were those who wanted to stop them. There is no unity now. There's simply a bunch of folks on a pvp server trying to do their best to be the best, while not telling anyone else ANYTHING about how they play. Like, nobody throws up instructions for casting animation breaks, or HOW to dodge wars "in your face". They just say crap like "learn how to ____" while never proving THEY can even do it themselves. Want to be known as the best? Teach others. Guess what? You'll even get better by teaching people.

(HINT: this is part of why it's so hard to know who sucks and who doesn't. Nobody wants everyone to get better to increase the challenge, they simply want to be the best. LAME! If everyone tried to help eachother become better pvp'ers, this crap about "well, you can't do x, therefore you suck" and "Prove you know what you're talking about. post screens!" wouldn't exist, there'd be less arguements on the forums, (note: LESS) and the devs would have a clearer picture of what DT was really about because there would actually be a COMMUNITY instead of a bunch of people calling eachother whiners and carebears.)

Teaching is a good thing! It raises skill (read: challenge), and forces those with no skill to either get some, or leave.

Got a little side tracked there... Anyway, I'm just a 7 year stick-jock, taking my pvp game into another game I've played for 5 years and comparing. I don't wanna hear flames and crap about "that has nothing to do with AC so it's totally invalid". You'll just be ignored because you appearantly don't know jack about what PvP really is: A sport.

[Nya13]

99 % agree

[-EtG-]

It might have been a really good post, but I stopped & cracked up laughing at "I play a LARP" ROFLMAO

[Septa Scarabae]

It might have been a really good post, but I stopped & cracked up laughing at "I play a LARP" ROFLMAO

Nothing wrong with LARPing. :rolleyes: Only difference is it takes personal skill rather than keyboard mashing skill.

[Abukkubuk]

heh:) i agree with you:) but i generelly hunt at these times:( i get my RF to game and teach him:) but im still same:Pp cause i play this game more then 4 years and i always played as melee, and there is nothin left to learn, all i need is to get rid of stick lag, and better ping:)
then im the pwnizor of dt! soon europe server is open and u all folks are dead:P but still i agree with you, because when i was lvl 60 and when a maxed melee attacked me while i was fully buffed baned, he tried to kill me with hollow. he didnt do anythiing with my fully tinked armor+shield:) then he tried to vuln me, i tried to run:)but he still vulned me and grabbed out his weeping then i kept healing and running then i entered the lever dung and i ddint died! and IMO i didnt die because of my armor, not my skillz. and this ruinz pvp, i want to die to lvl 150+ melee's when im nuub

[ossiebow]

This is a computer RPG, typically they are based on character stats and equipment than player skill. Sure skill has some part in it, but it should be more the characters skills. If you want pure skill go play Quake III or Unreal Tournament. This isn't a deathmatch fps.

[Verio]

I quit reading at the part that you said "Im a LARP" . a freaking LARP'er, lmao... we go down to the docks and make fun of those morons hitting each other with sticks. We had one of those societal regects come into work with a chopped off finger because he decided to play with real katana's. What a moron.

[Virindi Clown]

I play a LARP (live action RPG) where I take fake weapons, and beat the crap out of other people with fake weapons. Some of the other folks are spell casters. The point isn't so much to win, but to have a freakin blast trying.

Lol that's one of the funniest things I have ever seen here.

[Zinh The Noble]

How do you spell cast in real life? So if you are a sword fighter and you are beating a spellcaster with your stick, how do they fight back? ...wave their arms around and speak spell incantations? Then you slide around in a circle evading their fake war spell and start beating them with your stick again? LOL HOW THE HELL do the spell casters fight back???

:)

[Virindi Clown]

Zinh, do you mean that you can't shoot out giant fireballs to incinerate all that stand before you? Dang, sucks to be you.

[Shao Majii]

THIS is exactly the crap I'm talking about. look at your freaking attitudes! You wanna talk crap about my sword, come pick on up and kick my butt. Then you can talk crap about it. You don't know anything about it, don't talk it down.

That said, it doesn't surprise me that DT doesn't get much attention. The devs do NOT want to encourage your attitudes. They want positive attitudes and all you guys do is tell people to "gb2ff." Well, that's real freakin mature. You, EtG, and VC, have just lost EVERY ounce of respect I had for you. I thought you guys were, while sometimes emotionally driven to get your point accross, generally mature and intelligent. I'm not so sure anymore.

LARP... You have NEVER met me, fought me, or even met the people I fight with. You have no idea what kind of level we push ourselves to in order to compete. It takes just as much as a football game. We take it seriously like a sport. This isn't some pathetic RP only group. We role-play when we're done beating the crap out of eachother. Fight first, everything else later. You have ZERO idea. I've put just as much if not more effort into my sport as you guys have into DT. I was wrong about you guys. Take a step back and think about it. You have one shot to show me I was right the first time.

To answer the question about spells:
Magic is a combination of safe projectiles and verbal "incantations." Incants are nothing more than a verbal requirement to identify spell targets, take a measured amiount of time to cast the spell to create some balance for the power they gain, and of course so other people can tell what ability they're using. Each spell has either a physical object to dodge, block or otherwise deal with (I've seen some off the wall ideas that worked as a fluke) or it has a range limit so it can be avoided.

I've killed spell casters all by myself with nothing but sword and shield. While difficult, it's just different from fighting someone of my skill level, in different terms. Sometimes it is impossible to solo, other times, it works quite well. Every time, it's sheer judgement of the situation. Of course, all I need is one good hit. Same for them on me. A ton of fun when I'm not dead tired and my knees aren't hurting yet (although they sure will be when I'm done).

[Cezium]

I think Shao is going to hit you guys with his nerf toys.

[Shao Majii]

This is a computer RPG, typically they are based on character stats and equipment than player skill. Sure skill has some part in it, but it should be more the characters skills. If you want pure skill go play Quake III or Unreal Tournament. This isn't a deathmatch fps.
This is an intelligent response, and I see where you're coming from. Let me address this.

Equipment's role shouldn't be about who wins or not, like it can be now, as evidenced by another post on this thread. It should instead be about tactics and play styles. While I shouldn't have to clarify that, I will.

If you take UA, you hit fast. If you take sword, you hit slower. The difference here is to do similar damage, you get in and hit hard, or you get in multiple hits. Skills can already play this kind of role, but equipment should ENHANCE that and create multitudes of variations on a theme. So, one sword might do more damage over time by hitting twice and one does better with the one power hit. It gives a little more variation. I know, that's a terrible example, but it's an on the spot idea to make a point.

Skill levels have a different role: to increase the character's ablility and thus make for harder fights, more equipment options, and the like. It also means you can't just stat up, you have to learn more about pvp as you gain xp.

[muse]

I normally stay out of these forum mud slinging games, but I had to come in and support Shao Majii on the LARP thing. Although I had never heard it refered to by that name.

The main attraction of LARP and variance's is the ability to fight in melee combat for real. More important it is the ability to learn it, compete with it, have fun, and walk away alive from it. There are many levels of play ranging from nerf type weapons (they sting) to hard material facsimilies (they bruise and can break bones) to the real thing, blunted of course (more bruising, chance of broken bones, concussions, and lots of getting knocked on your arse). It is a very serious sport. And like Shao stated requires plenty of real life skill and real life attribute. The purpose and draw of learning to fight with melee weapons is no different than of martial arts ie. boxing or shoot fighting or ranged weapons ie. bows or firearms. I'll repeat "it is the ability to learn it, compete with it, have fun, and walk away alive from it". The level of LARP being discussed is in the same catagory as protective gear for boxing or paintball guns instead of shot guns. Do you want to die or be beaten stupid just to learn how to do something? The roleplaying and spellcasting are just to add something fun for some in Shao's group, but as stated takes a backseat to the action, the learning.

-Because some of you do not like or understand something certainly does not invalidate it.

-Because someone encountered an fanatic with poor judgement and training does not make the whole concept moronic. I submit "The half naked fat men painted various colors standing in the cold to support their team"......Yeah football.

I hope this puts a dent in the ignorance that is overflowing on these boards. Probably not......Somebody always has some seemly witty comment that must be typed! I guess the forums would be a lot quieter if people only posted when they had something useful to post.......hey there's one now!

[VanDyne]

So.. kinda off topic, but you LARP, and I've always wondered... How do you Role Play the character relationships, especially the intimate aspects of them?

How do you role play a town, a weapon shop, inn, etc? How do you have NPC's?

Or is LARP basically pen and paper with human's acting as minatures? If the latter is the case, then to me... you aren't really role playing, because you're still a puppet.

[Verio]

Statistcly I've found that most LARP'ers or people who dress up in black clothing and pretend to be vampires (Our local group of rejects) are from low income, white trash, or broken homes. The sorry fact is that these people instead of getting the mental help they need from a pyschiatrist act out their aggresion by pretending to me some 9th century warrior and hitting their friend with a stick.

Yeah, hitting each other with sticks was cool when I was 8, but when I was 18. Its the pure fact that the person has failed to distinguish between reality and a game left for kids.

[-EtG-]

Also lol @ the comment that if we want to criticise we need to pick up a sword & kick your butt?

Sorry, but my opinion is just as valid if I own you or get owned.

Also, drop your sword pansy & we'll see how long you last hahahaha

[Shao Majii]

Sorry EtG, you just got on my "not worthy of response list" due to immature approach to something you appearently know nothing about. That comment was about knowing what you're talking about. You simply discounted what I had to say based on a flipant opinion generated with a lack of knowlege of which you were passing your personal judgement on.

LARP: it's all physical, no paper here. Nearly full contact sport.

Verio, Those are EXACTLY the people I do everything in my power to keep OUT. This is about playing a game and having fun in a safe compedative manner, like any other sport. The fact that there's more to it than that just adds depth and makes "content" to do, much like adding a quest to AC. And it gives people who aren't always interested in the sport aspect (some folks other half for example) something to really dive into so they can have fun with thier whole family.

This post is dangerously off topic now. I was merely compareing one form of PvP to another because weather you like it or not, it's the same at it's core. The only difference is the exact mechanics and the medium you fight with. The biggest difference here, is the PvP "community" of AC seems to be just the opposite. You want DT to grow, but you don't want anyone from the ONLY reasonable source of players available. WTF. Welcome folks in. If they suck, don't hang out with em, put them on your freakin KOSL and move on with your life hanging out with those you do like. Duh, that's what the freakin allegiance system is for.

[-EtG-]

Immature is me saying: I'll kick your butt in a fist fight :|

Mature response to LARPing? Me saying "LOL".

[Mimir]

Statistcly I've found that most LARP'ers or people who dress up in black clothing and pretend to be vampires (Our local group of rejects) are from low income, white trash, or broken homes. The sorry fact is that these people instead of getting the mental help they need from a pyschiatrist act out their aggresion by pretending to me some 9th century warrior and hitting their friend with a stick.

Yeah, hitting each other with sticks was cool when I was 8, but when I was 18. Its the pure fact that the person has failed to distinguish between reality and a game left for kids.

Hey does it work? because instead of society wasting billions on psychological help we could just spend like 3 bucks a head and give everyone 2x4s to beat the crap out of eachother with. and I am 100% serious about this, I've even written my congressman

[Makesevenacs]

Someone needs to go masturbate..

cause obviously he is not getting any..

if you play larp i mean..

[Shao Majii]

LMAO. Is that all you got? A lame insult? Wow... what a marvelously matrue response.
/sarcasm off.

[HadleyBrin]

EtG ... you're the biggest idiot I've ever seen on these boards.

[Makesevenacs]

Wtf?

That position is mine thank you very much..

And you are not worthy of a decent insult.

[TerrorDT]

sry jsut had to add this quote......... i want to die to lvl 150+ melee's when im nuub........end quote.

Um NO! if you wanted to die to a lvl 150+melee u wouldda fought instead of running liek a pu**y to your nearest lever dungeon to get away.....ROFL!

[Virindi Clown]

Wtf?

That position is mine thank you very much..

And you are not worthy of a decent insult.

You must claim your title by putting it in your sig. EtG is already the drama queen. I am the ill tempered potty mouth.

[bakalakadaka]

finally somone to just come out and Fing say it. i have been playing dt for 5+ years and i have always tried to demonstrate to people that who cares about levels or equipment, loosing ourselves in trading,macroing,Emoting. anyone who is smart and plays ac knows, the only future and place with room for ascent is the space that occupies the pvp relm. i beleive that the essential fun of dt is when two level ones go at it and see who wins, thats the essence of pvp and life in general. sometimes you have to show your skill, and if you get beaten you come back twice as strong and kill everyone no matter their level or skill, the relentlessness of strength and brute force.
i have literally done this for years and have absolutely no regrets. for people who have killed me, yipee, il still come back and kill aynone 1v1 lol so i really dont care. my main goal is to have fun, and if being the best no matter the cost is my goal then so be it. i do what comes innate to me.

but in actuality of the matter irl i am a calm, collected, intelligent person who is just about having fun with people i enjoy, i am a philosipher at heart and just want whats best for everyone. SO if everyone wants to just level and macro and waste their time, fine with me. il just have no part in it, I will try to show as many people as i can the true way of life and happiness, but for those who dont take, i cant really waste my time, for those who will truely confide in my knowledge can rarely be spared.

[Milon]

I just have to say that equipment, in real life, plays a huge part in who wins. Me, being in the military, should definitely know all about this. What ancient Empire used to use gold sword and armor? Who beat them with superior weapons and armor? Gold was too soft and was beat by iron. Brass was beat by iron, etc etc. Your golden broadsword may ding up my steel breastplate, but my steel claymore will chop right through your gold and into your body. Yep, equipment plays a role in who wins or loses, even in real life :) Skill is also a fator, I'm not ruling that out and saying anybody with a gold short sword can't kill a guy in a full suit of steel armor, it's possible. But with the same skill levels, the better equipment will most likely win. Uneven skill levels, the more skilled will probably win but can lose due to having poorly crafted weapons and armor.

[Hypnoz]

I just have to say that equipment, in real life, plays a huge part in who wins. Me, being in the military, should definitely know all about this. What ancient Empire used to use gold sword and armor? Who beat them with superior weapons and armor? Gold was too soft and was beat by iron. Brass was beat by iron, etc etc. Your golden broadsword may ding up my steel breastplate, but my steel claymore will chop right through your gold and into your body. Yep, equipment plays a role in who wins or loses, even in real life :) Skill is also a fator, I'm not ruling that out and saying anybody with a gold short sword can't kill a guy in a full suit of steel armor, it's possible. But with the same skill levels, the better equipment will most likely win. Uneven skill levels, the more skilled will probably win but can lose due to having poorly crafted weapons and armor.


AC is not real life.

[Milon]

Did I ever say AC was real life? No? Ok then... The previous posts eluded to aspects of skill relating real life combat to AC combat and the effects of equipment vs skill. :)

[Hypnoz]

Did I ever say AC was real life? No? Ok then... The previous posts eluded to aspects of skill relating real life combat to AC combat and the effects of equipment vs skill. :)

The point i made was pretty clear. Why relate real life combat to ac combat?

RL combat you are pretty much dead or unable to fight after taking an arrow in the chest.

Or a sword hitting your head.
etc etc

[Jin Saotome]

I agree with wanting pvp to be fun, and not the trash-talking hassle it is now. You should be able to grab any weapon and start a fight with someone. As Shao put it, you need a myrid of different things just to try and compete. And that won't even help you unless you know how to slidecast, jumpspin, power-slide, etc, the very things pvp'ers refuse to teach anyone. They'd rather send you to the lifestone and brag instead of helping you become a better opponent... and that's one huge reason I'm no longer on the side of pvp or Darktide, wishing for that aspect of the game to be removed completly so that resources can be used for other less blood pressure-raising things. (New pack dolls anyone? Heh, just kidding...)

On the brighter side, LARP kicks ass. I don't personally undertake it, preferring pen-n-paper and online rpgs, but I do make some of the costume accessories/props/weapons for the 'sport' as I call it sometimes. I mean it takes balls to dress up like a goblin, half-naked, paint yourself green, and go jumping out from behind a building at someone, having the mages throw little bags of powder at you. Anyone can put on a football jersey and toss around a football, but how many have put on a suit of metal armor and swung a 5-foot gladiator halberd? SCA battles are even better, causing injury sometimes! Those I've been involved with and I can say it's more fun mowing someone down with a buckler than killing 1000 Tuskers, heh, no offense to AC of course!

Can't forget that LARP and SCA stuff is a great source of income! Billions of dollars are spent in the economy every year that directly relates to larp and the like. All those Ren-fairs that generate so much hype? They wouldn't even exist if people thought it was 'dorky' to dress up and have a little role-play fun in their lives. How can you knock LARP if you've never tried it?

[-EtG-]

"I agree with wanting pvp to be fun, and not the trash-talking hassle it is now."

You used to be able to REALLY trash talk, & cuss someone off the server. Now, with everyone using /notells & squelch, not to mention reporting, trash talking is very basic & very poor. Stfu if you're crying about the state of trash talk now.

"You should be able to grab any weapon and start a fight with someone. As Shao put it, you need a myrid of different things just to try and compete."

Counterstrike. Go away.


"And that won't even help you unless you know how to slidecast, jumpspin, power-slide, etc, the very things pvp'ers refuse to teach anyone. They'd rather send you to the lifestone and brag instead of helping you become a better opponent... and that's one huge reason I'm no longer on the side of pvp or Darktide, wishing for that aspect of the game to be removed completly so that resources can be used for other less blood pressure-raising things. (New pack dolls anyone? Heh, just kidding...)"

Shut up & stop your crying. I had quit back in the god mode days, came back & was like wtf did I forget how to god mode, wtf is this effing spell movement fizzle. I figured out after only 1 pointer from a guild mate: Tap forward to fast cast. There. You have the same tip one of the best Pks on Darktide in the last few years received. Go to work & figure it out, because that's what I did.

"On the brighter side, LARP kicks ass. I don't personally undertake it, preferring pen-n-paper and online rpgs, but I do make some of the costume accessories/props/weapons for the 'sport' as I call it sometimes. I mean it takes balls to dress up like a goblin, half-naked, paint yourself green, and go jumping out from behind a building at someone, having the mages throw little bags of powder at you. Anyone can put on a football jersey and toss around a football, but how many have put on a suit of metal armor and swung a 5-foot gladiator halberd?"

l-o-s-e-r

[Milon]

I didn't relate AC PvP to real life combat in the first place. But, since it was brought up, yeah I just wanted to make some points that may have been left out of that conversation.

[Jin Saotome]

Ya know what's funny eTg? Counterstike is fun, the battles are quick, and there's millions of copies of the game sold. They must be doing something right....