Comments on the new Vitae system

[Zimarathon]

Yeah, death should sting a bit more, but my level 60 bow guy with no magic
ended up at 40% vitae before I could even blink. I was about evenly matched with what I was attacking, level wise.


Finally got into a group to hunt with- all of us had vitae to burn. Took a couple hours to get rid of everyone's vitae.

All involved felt it seemed excessive.

[MaddyFF]

I took my level 40 into a dungeon, died about half-way down (drudge raveners). With no life or creature magic I still managed to recover and kill off my vitae. It did take longer to get rid of, but I hardly thought it was excessive.

[Nightstarr SC]

lvl 60 frist death 5% vita 53k will reduce vital by 1%. Make me want to wait till releease and use my normal toons.

[Alltu_Tru]

It's about time they made life or death matter ;) Had 10% myself and I think it is about right considering they lowered the number of items you dropped per lvl by about half.

Would you rather have your full pack of DIs back? or be able to make due with a half pack for a change ;)

[Yula_the_Mighty]

The old system was a joke. Death had no sting beyond the possibility of the loss of a few death items. Glad to see they put some bite into it. Especially considering it is possible to buy augmentations that reduce the normal death items to zero.

Yula the Mighty - HG

[.Kid.]

I haven't logged onto the open preview yet (due to DirectX probs) but I agree with ya all - the old vitae system was a joke. I could burn my 5% with 1 kill easily.

[hippiechick64]

Im going to agree. In another not to be mentioned game dying has absolutely no penalty and its silly, I die on purpose just to get where Im going easier. Sure wouldnt do it in AC like that! I think death SHOULD sting, and the higher level you are and the more you die, the more it should sting. Puts new meaning in the words "body recovery" eh? HEHE
mj

[imagine_like_ac]

Here we go I'll post my comment here

The point here is I bet you all are all HARD CORE PLAYERS / Power LEVELERS. I'm not and this is really really really hard to get over.


For casual players this sucks a lot. In fact I'm not really enjoying the preview because the vitae is too much.

I compare this now to what it will be when the final versiopn comes out and the total time i Have to play and its leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

It's way too much. Why the change?

It was fine the way it was before!!!!!!!!!

The death item drop was good enough. I can't help it if everyone else leveld to 200+ and think the game is too easy for them.

[Alltu_Tru]

me... a hard core player?? LOL

took me 4 years to get ONE SINGLE lvl 126 character ;)

And I love this new system, now you had better watch yourself and dont jump in the middle of something you cant handle!

Now the ones that will REALLY be yelling is the macroers, they die almost nightly it seems. That is why they made the "log on death" macros. Those people are gonna get ticked with all the vitea thier macros are gonna give me :D.

The old system had NO bite to it at all, at lvl 120, you die, your vitea is cleared with one or two critters of lvl 80+, then ya just got to get your body. No one cared about dying (unless they were on quest of course).

NOW people will have to decide if they really want to push that fight and risk a death the way it SHOULD be :)

[Nightstarr SC]

me... a hard core player?? LOL

took me 4 years to get ONE SINGLE lvl 126 character ;)

And I love this new system, now you had better watch yourself and dont jump in the middle of something you cant handle!

Now the ones that will REALLY be yelling is the macroers, they die almost nightly it seems. That is why they made the "log on death" macros. Those people are gonna get ticked with all the vitea thier macros are gonna give me :D.

The old system had NO bite to it at all, at lvl 120, you die, your vitea is cleared with one or two critters of lvl 80+, then ya just got to get your body. No one cared about dying (unless they were on quest of course).

NOW people will have to decide if they really want to push that fight and risk a death the way it SHOULD be :)


in a 4hr period at lvl 128 I can sometime die about 6 times in the 80 hive.
I'll deal with it.

but at my first toon got to 10%. I couldn't get rid of it so. I just made a new one tonight took over an hour to get rid of 5%. I think 25k per 1% at lvl 60 would be better then the current 53k

just and idea

[hippiechick64]

Ima noob if anything LOL. I dont PL or chain or macro, never have, but when I play I like to play. And if it takes me an entire game session to get my body and all the items on it and get rid of my vitae Id consider that some pretty heavy duty playing!
mj

[Hamfast]

Ima noob if anything LOL. I dont PL or chain or macro, never have, but when I play I like to play. And if it takes me an entire game session to get my body and all the items on it and get rid of my vitae Id consider that some pretty heavy duty playing!
mj

Ditto's Hippiechick...

I died, the vitea was harsh... I love it... it should be harsh.

[cloud_12077]

I like it. Granted it's harder but since when should death be easy...

~Z~

[Hawkson]

It's good to see all the people who whined about the Vitae Penalty not being bad enough got their way.

Whiners.

Should it be a bit harder? Sure.

Should it cost 250+k for a level 60 to drop a 5% Vitae Penalty. Absolutely not.

Around 100k for 5% would have been fine.

But no.

Let's make it overly excessive.

I'm sure I'll die on my main, after ToD. It'll be some insane number like 1million XP to drop 5% of VP and I'll log off for the evening, because of how unbelievably stupid that is.

I'm no hardcore leveler, or macroer but...1 million XP to drop 5% VP? I hunt by myself most of the time, and for specific things. Why should it take me a decent portion of my hunting period to drop my VP. Example - my main character, Hawkson, is 126+. There have been times that I've been hunting a specific creature, mainly on Caul. And I've not bothered to kill anything but a monster or two. It shouldn't cause me an hour of being pissed off just because I happened to die once.

[Korrigan]

Thanks to Turbine.
For once, they didn't cather to the "fast food gaming" crowd and made death meaningful again.

Oh noes ! It will take 10 tusker guards instead of 2 to get rid of my vitae ! *cry* !

[MaddyFF]

The point here is I bet you all are all HARD CORE PLAYERS / Power LEVELERS. I'm not and this is really really really hard to get over.


For casual players this sucks a lot. In fact I'm not really enjoying the preview because the vitae is too much.

Hardcore? Maybe, depends on how you define hared core. I prefer smart player myself and try not to get into situations where I'll rack up lots of vitae.

[toshiro]

Personally for me it brought back a bit of the original feeling of AC, took me a a while to clear the 20% i built up in light prop :-0

from me its a thumbs up on the vitea increase! Any changes that bring back even a momentary feeling of AC from old is better than the hack slash gotta lvl feeling of todays game.

[sandman]

I haven't played the preview yet but I'm amazed at the players crying about how hard it is to kill vitae. My UA at level 60 had no problem killing evis rapidly even with vitae. At 21k each it's about 13 evi's to kill 5% vitae. That would take me less than 10 minutes.

For the level 126 that dies multiple times in Matron Hive East, what class are you playing? Unluss you take far too many risks or don't have melee defense you shouldn't have problems. I hunt there extensively and unless I get the stuck in combat mode bug and can't heal, or get silly and let myself get surrounded, I rarely die. Even then, if you're in a fellowship you're vitae will be gone fast.

[imagine_like_ac]

OK,

I generally play a mage, and I don't buff myself up all the time because quite frankly I dont have teh time.

I am fine with the viate changing a bit. But after experiencing the vitae with a level 1 character and seeing how long it took me to loose vitae (15 mins) Then doing it as a level 60 and it taking me 3 hours thats longer than I would normally play.

I pretty much gave up last night and I've been playing ac since day 1. It frustrated me beyond believe. I'm fine with a slight change to the vitae. but what it is right now is just frustrating.

I'm not enjoying myself not at all. Especially since no one ever wants to fellow and I prefer to hunt solo anyways.


So lower it a bit, as it is right now it is way too high and hard to drop that much vitae in any "REASONABLE" amount of time. On top of the fact i just dropped all my armor and can't get back to my body. I'm not even taking any risks. IM RIGHT OUTSIDE MAYOI lifestone for crying out loud LOL

[Korrigan]

But after experiencing the vitae with a level 1 character and seeing how long it took me to loose vitae (15 mins) Then doing it as a level 60 and it taking me 3 hours thats longer than I would normally play.
Let's try to say this a nice way ...

You are doing something wrong if it take you that much time to get rid of 5% of vitae, even with the new system. 250k xp at level 60 is nothing, unless you hunt stuff much under your level.

[imagine_like_ac]

I can't hit anything even close to my level without dying... liek i said I don't buff up much. Even in the normal game.

[Gordian]

I thought it was a bit excessive. It took me 90 minutes to get rid of 5% vitae. Considering that around 40% of my deaths in the DM are from disconnects and other issues beyond my control, I hate to see this sort of penalty. It would also make getting rid of vitae on a mule very difficult as XP rewards don't burn it.

I have a feeling though in the live ToD where your characters have better armor and weapons and DIs that it will be easier than in the preview to clear vitae. I still suspect though it will be a bit excessive. Again, many deaths are not the players fault and it seems unfair to be penalized for them.

[Zalliun]

Now the ones that will REALLY be yelling is the macroers, they die almost nightly it seems. That is why they made the "log on death" macros. Those people are gonna get ticked with all the vitea thier macros are gonna give me :D.



Yeah im sure that the 5% will hurt for about 1 minute or two

The reason there is log on death in a macro is so you dont hog fellow places after death

its not remotely going to bother macros its going to bother people playing at add hours that dont know alot of people to help them out if they get into trouble with vitae.

[Raylin]

Yesterday I started a Viamont sword swinger, took her through the academy, and came out at level 5 with all the requisite n00b equipment. I then decided to kill the little mobs around the starting area to work on improving my equipment. After about 5 minutes I was killed because I wasn't paying attention to my health. It took me only about 5-6 minutes to burn that vitae.

So, if at level 1 it took you longer than a couple of minutes, then you must have been killing rabbits or something. I'm willing to bet that in all cases, the people that are complaining about it taking too long are trying to overcompensate for the vitae by hunting way below their level, or not compensating at all and going after higher level stuff in the hopes of burning the vitae faster.

I have a level 100-something character on VT that I started playing on day one of that server opening. During all the time it took me to get to that level I only died 5 times. The point of this is that if you're going out and hitting 40% vitae in one night, it's not the death system that's messed up, it's your hunting technique.

[MaddyFF]

Then doing it as a level 60 and it taking me 3 hours thats longer than I would normally play.

Took me about 10 minutes at level 60, maybe think of different ways of losing vitae?

[Hazridi]

It takes about 2 million exp to remove a point of vitae at level 260.

I would agree that this is excessive... it's also debilitating for Darktide players.

[Korrigan]

It takes about 2 million exp to remove a point of vitae at level 260.

I would agree that this is excessive... it's also debilitating for Darktide players.

Disagreed. Wait to see what kind of mobs will be in the game for level 260 characters. If each mob gives 500k xp, dang, or even only 250k, then 2 millions are nothing.

The price of power ... ;)

[Hazridi]

You can't kill level 260 mobs when you have 10% vitae, you have to kill level 130-150 mobs. 10% vitae basically reduces you to level 140.


You should maybe play at these levels before you comment about them.

Edit: Price of what power? being maxed out is like 5 points higher than someone who has a quarter of the total exp points. That's less than 1% difference.

[Korrigan]

Vitae only increases by steps of 5%.

And you play on Winterseb, not LC, so I wonder how you know what kind of mobs are killable in ToD by level 260 chars with vitae ...

[MaddyFF]

"The cost to work off a single point of vitae loss increases based on character level. By level 15 or so, it should take about 5 kills to work off 5% vitae loss. Around level 70, it's 10. It reaches 15 around level 160 and 20 at level 275. This is true for all characters, whether or not they are on a Throne of Destiny account."

20 creatures at level 275 sounds resonable to me.

[Hazridi]

It takes a lot longer to kill these creatures at level 260 than it does at lower levels, at least for a mage...

I get resisted about 80% of the time on anything over level 170, even without vitae.

I haven't found many things to kill that are worth 500k - which is 10 mil / 20 kills. The hollow lugians in the one spot are worth 750k, but they are pretty difficult for mages. Above land creatures of higher level like the Viamontian Lords end up killing me more than I end up killing them, and they are only level 170.

The real problem is that there's such little difference between characters of level 260 and even characters of level 160 that making penalties substantially different is absurd.


Oh yeah, I can't kill anything over level 200 except the Draktars. Uber penguins I can't even cast on (they cast inepts). I spend like 5-10 minutes trying to kill level 185 mushrooms and penguins because I get resisted about 5-15 times more often than I actually land a spell.

[MaddyFF]

That sounds more like an issue with monster balancing then with the vitae system to me.

[Hawkson]

Fortunately for everyone, your opinion MaddyFF, and the opinion of Yula the Mighty(sp) are completely worthless and hold no bearing on the game, otherwise this game would be taken down the path into Whiner's Call.

It's completely assinine for it to be 2 million XP per point of Vitae penalty past level 260. Assume 10 million per hour hunting. That's 1 point of VP every 12 minutes, or an hour to remove a 5% vitae penalty. That's just plain stupid. You can gimp your character all you want. You want a challenge, go out and hunt without buffs, or without buffing your weapon. Don't try to force everyone else to agree to a new, broken Vitae system.

[Korrigan]

A level 260 doing only 10m/hour is a retard.

[MaddyFF]

It's completely assinine for it to be 2 million XP per point of Vitae penalty past level 260. Assume 10 million per hour hunting.

Isn't it assinine to think that a level 260 will be making only 10 million an hour? I can do that on my level 60 something archer, solo. I would there are hunting areas where a level 260 is making much more then 10 million an hour.


Don't try to force everyone else to agree to a new, broken Vitae system.

Nope, I'm arguing in support of changes to the current system that is not only broke but a complete joke.

Trust me, you wouldn't want my fixes for the vitae system.

[Hawkson]

Trust me, I'm glad you're not on my server, to bother me with your innane drivel about how you think AC should be changed or fixed.

I was giving an example. I have no idea how much a 260 will make per hour. And no, I don't even want to hear your ideas because I know that they'll be worse then the broken system Turbine is trying to implement.

[MaddyFF]

Trust me, I'm glad you're not on my server, to bother me with your innane drivel about how you think AC should be changed or fixed.

How do you know that? I play on 4 different servers. BTW, all my posts have my name in them, feel free to ignore. My feelings won't be hurt.

I have no idea how much a 260 will make per hour.

So in other words you are telling us how the system is broke based on how long it will take for a level 260 to work off vitae when you have no knowledge on how much XP a level 260 will be earning per hour.

Yes, I've been speaking innane drivel (that is sarcasm for those wondering).

[Hawkson]

Yes, I am commenting.

I'm allowed to, I don't see anywhere where it says I can't.

You don't no either, but I am still allowed to feel the system is broken.

Thanks for playing.

GB2FF

[Yula_the_Mighty]

Fortunately for everyone, your opinion MaddyFF, and the opinion of Yula the Mighty(sp) are completely worthless and hold no bearing on the game, otherwise this game would be taken down the path into Whiner's Call.

It's completely assinine for it to be 2 million XP per point of Vitae penalty past level 260. Assume 10 million per hour hunting. That's 1 point of VP every 12 minutes, or an hour to remove a 5% vitae penalty. That's just plain stupid. You can gimp your character all you want. You want a challenge, go out and hunt without buffs, or without buffing your weapon. Don't try to force everyone else to agree to a new, broken Vitae system.
If you are only earning 10 million an hour at 260, then there is something terribly wrong. A level 100 melee can go to the withered Atoll, hunt Lugians at 400k a kill and easily earn 20 million experience points in an hour solo.

A melee character whose in the effective 150 range can earn 40 million an hour in the Vile Sanctuary. A level 260 melee with 5% vitae is effectively much higher than level 150. So we are looking at a worst case of 15 minutes to work off vitae at level 260.

As level 150 character, it probably only take 5 minutes work off vitae. That is not a big penalty.

Yula the Mighty - HG

[MaddyFF]

As level 150 character, it probably only take 5 minutes work off vitae. That is not a big penalty.

Something we used to do was carrying around items you turn in for XP to burn vitae fast. Carry a mutie pincer in your backpack, poof vitae is bye-bye.

[thejackcat]

I have a level 260 player from the closed preview. She is now at 23% vitae and I'm scrapping her and going for the level 100 token because I don't see any forseeable way to rescue the character. The MMD note at the beginning was used for level 7 spells, which I can't cast now. I spent time hunting for money to buy level 5 & 6, and had another death or two. I know if you level your char up from scrap, you won't be in these ill-equipped situations, but I've spent almost all my time replacing lost equipment and learning enough spells to try to buff so I can hunt and get rid of my vitae. As it is, I can't hunt anything that's going to give me enough xp to get rid of the vitae in a casual gamer's lifespan. Ha.

Just my 2p.

[Yula_the_Mighty]

This is definetely a problem in the preview because any level 260 character is going to be poorly equipped unless they are a Leafcull characters. No death items. No level 6 spells to fall back on because of the lack of money.

On a live world, where you had to work your way up to level 260 this should not be a big issue.

Yula the Mighty - HG

[Hazridi]

Well, I luckily enough had a friend who gave me a set of tinkered armor, though I don't have any majors. Even equipped decently I am having problems.

I had to recruit help to get a tusk to get rid of my 15% vitae. Got another 10% and managed to clear that up with the snow lily quest (by accident), and I worked off the last 5% vitae on my own... but I spent way more time with vitae than without and it's frustrating to say the least.

[Zeds]

there was nothing wrong with the system as it was to begin with IMHO

this is just another in a series of bad moves connected to this x pack

the die hard xp at all costs players will have no problem with it , the more casual or laid back player gets shafted

[MaddyFF]

there was nothing wrong with the system as it was to begin with IMHO

well IMO it was a total joke, death had zero meaning.

[Zeds]

to someone who is an xp at all costs player it was i guess

there was nothing wrong with it for those of us who have a life and play for limited time or are more laid back players ( explore-quest more than xp grind)

this x pack is dedicated to the type of player that is in game nearly 24/7 xp grinding all the way or those who *gasp* Macro

[eolorian]

While I dont agree with maddy on everything (ATI issue comes to mind). I do agree here. Dying has been a joke for a long time in AC. If I hunt in a fellow, I can usually clear my vitae easily. Even if I do not hunt in a fellow, I never take more than 2 or 3 kills to clear.

Dont forget that all the characters that use the level tokens are not actually good test characters, especially if it is a mage. All of my mages that are at least level 80 have spells that are 1-7. This is not true for my level 100 mage in preview. The power of the weapons is much lower than what I actually have.

If you play normally and are equipped normally, you should be ok in the vitae area. I would love to have my al 400 buffable armor set to use but I dont. If I had everything I have on a normal server, I would kick Olthoi tail. The fact is I do not.

The nice thing is that this thread shows they did something right with vitae because it has a sting to it. Could you imagine if there was permadeath? Now that would stink. Or better yet, having to use spendable xp on vitae. That would stink

[Zeds]

they should have left it alone

harsh death penaltys are why I didnot/do not play EQ or the like

I am not going to dedicate a large part of my time to play in gettting rid of vitae penalties because the grinders think it would be "cool" to have harsher death penalties

[MaddyFF]

to someone who is an xp at all costs player it was i guess

there was nothing wrong with it for those of us who have a life and play for limited time or are more laid back players ( explore-quest more than xp grind)


I can tolerate a tusker dungeon long enough to get a tusk. I avoid Caul fellows as I hate XP fellowships.So I', not into AC for the XP.

BTW, my ATI comments are mainly a theory.

[Hazridi]

Yeah, but how often will you have a tusk quest available? It's only once every 3 weeks.

Level 180->260 is something like 100 billion experience points - yet for all that exp you get maybe 4 points more in all of your skills. It's simply not fair to require someone with that much experience to have to work 4 times harder for their extra 4 points in the skills.

[MaddyFF]

Well maybe with some tinkered armor/weapons we can see what the XP geberation really looks like and that can help in determining how things are balanced.

The curves in AC always seem screwy to me. :p

[Zimarathon]

The amount of time to dump vitae should not be based on being in a fellow in a high xp/macro situation.

If I need keyrings/burning coals and go hunting golems and die due to lag death it pretty well means that I'm gonna have vitae for the foreseeable future, cuz it sure isn't gonna get dropped hunting the dires.

So yeah, maybe it's not a problem if you happen to be in a spot where xp pours in, but anywhere else it is a problem.

[Hazridi]

I have AL 420 armor, it's still overly harsh in my opinion. When I was running around in a robe, that was really all my fault and I didn't complain.

[sol-star]

well IMO it was a total joke, death had zero meaning.


Maybe, but this is a game and wtf is fun about death penaltys.
My personal opinion is the ToD vitae is ok. Hell Double it, but lose the item dropping bs. Dropping items on death sux and I don't care what the pk's think about it.

[Korrigan]

One thing you must remember too, guys, is that on your real chars, you will have majors/moderates/minors (you certainly have a few just from quest items). That will make it possible to cast level 7 spells even with 15% vitae.

Another thing ... letting your char get more than 15% vitae is not very ... smart. It's like the guy who runs into a wall, says "hey, it hurts", but keeps running into the same wall several more times. I can't remember last time I had more than 10% on any of my chars.

[thejackcat]

Well, Korrigan, it's not like I ran out blithely into the night and said, "let's see how high I can get my vitae!" I spent hours and hours last night trying to get rid of it, only to die twice more during the process. As I said, I finally gave up and am trowing the character away and going for one in the 100 level range. I'm unlikely to ever have a character in the 150+ range for real anyway.

[Hazridi]

When you're level 260, having 5-10% makes it really easy to die again while you are working off said vitae. 10% vitae brings you to 414 instead of 460 buffed specialized magic skills.

[Korrigan]

(this thread is the proof that when you discuss with people who don't take everything personally, like Maggie or Hazridi, progress is possible ... thanks for that guys :))

Point taken.
Basically, at low level (let's say under 126), the new vitae penalty is just fine and finally makes dieing meaningfull again.
They must just adjust the curve of "xp needed" so that a level 260 character can recover in a decent amount of time by killing stuff he can kill with 5% - 10% - 15% - etc ... vitae.

Hazridi : I was wondering ... with 414 buffed magic skills, one can still kill stuff in e.g. Valley of Death for 1 million xp per mob. Or is the xp of those mobs at level 260 too reduced for it to be worth it ? How much does e.g. a Virindi Quiddiox give to a level 260 char ?

[MaddyFF]

Hazridi : I was wondering ... with 414 buffed magic skills, one can still kill stuff in e.g. Valley of Death for 1 million xp per mob. Or is the xp of those mobs at level 260 too reduced for it to be worth it ? How much does e.g. a Virindi Quiddiox give to a level 260 char ?

Two things from the level FAQ (http://ac.turbinegames.com/index.php?page_id=374)

Q: If I get to level 275, won't the experience that I get for creatures that are listed as level 150 decrease because they're now well below my level?

A: No. We are removing the experience scaling system completely.

Q: Will there be any change to the rate of advancement for uber-level characters?

A: Throne of Destiny includes some content specifically designed to improve the rate of advancement for very high-level characters, without unbalancing the rate of advancement for lower-level characters. We'll be posting more information about this content in the near future.

So they can still get one million XP per mob in the VoD and perhaps we haven't seen the highest level content yet.

I'm still leaning towards the skills of the monsters at the high end may need adjusting. If at level 260 5% vitae lose means you can no longer kill monsters at your level then something is probably wrong. My expereince tended to show that monsters at that level were designed to be a challenge for a character with max stats and so maybe even a little vitae is getting you behind the 8 ball.

[Korrigan]

Thanks for that info, Maddy.

So a level 260 char with even 20% vitae can go to VoD and crush a few big baddies to recover quickly.
460 minus 20% is still 368, which is enough to land on VoD stuff, and just one mob will remove substantial vitae making it easier to recover at each kill. Hell, I was able to kill VoD mobs with my CLaW mage at level 75.

Maybe it's just a problem of changing your hunting habits ? You were never really level 260 before ... and there are certainly other spots like VoD easy enough and giving enough XP for a level 260 with 20% to recover.

I remember when my 3 school sword was low level, it could not cast level VIIs easily, specially not with vitae. I always had a BSD tie, so I could recall there unbuffed and destroy a few apes to get rid of that vitae.

Maybe you guys could test that ?

[MaddyFF]

I think part of the issue is at the high end we are use to recovering lost vitae quickly. Often one kill and the vitae is gone. So yes, I think the player base needs to adjust a bit in its thinking in this area that vitae lose actually means something now.

Still doesn't mean things don't need tweaking. From my expereince I didn't have a problem with the system, but then the most vitae lose I had at any one time was 5%.

I do know that I'll stock up on some multilator pincers and tusks here, just in case. :)

[Dragonsoul]

The new vitae system gets my vote... Death should have consequences. The axer I rolled has no problem getting rid of the vitae, and believe me, I've done some dying!!! lol

[Ftuoil_Xelrash]

I say BRAVO TURBINE! :)

It is about time you fixed this old bug and made VP and Death mean something. You people have been spoiled forever becuase levels stopped at 126. Stop crying and deal with it. If you leveled to 150+ and cant burn your own vp in a few minutes then you just need to walk away from the game becuase your a pansy.
:eek:

[Zeds]

Like I said , and as evidenced by the posts that are pro the vitae change

it is set up for the XP at all cost , 24/7 player or a macroer

there is no sense in this for those who play for limited amounts of time , for those who quest or explore rather than XP grind. or for those who have a laid back style of play

the only people here I see that support it are those who keep bringing up xp areas and xp groups or xp grinding /turnin s to claim that it is just fine

of course since XP is all your game is about anyway , you will not have aproblem with it

others who play to have fun or explore or God forbid actually quest and socialize are getting the shaft

death means something to me whether there is a penalty or not , I do not run into an area with the mindset that "oh well I died < I will just grind the penalty away" I try to avoid death

[eolorian]

Those who play for limited amounts of time will not be level 260 or even 200 for that matter any time soon. It seems the only people who can truly give feedback are those from Leafcull as they will have properly equipped players that they can play normally. The rest of us are not playing properly made characters with all the equipment that goes with it. The level tokens do not account for skills gaining their own xp so it is not a true representation of a character. Why not give it a chance and wait till you use a character that is properly equipped to complain. I am just a weekend warrior at best and I look forward to these new changes in vitae. I have no hope of attaining top level any time soon.

[Yew Wan Sum]

I like the new system much better than the old. I still don't think the penalty is very harsh, though. If you are only needing 250K at level 60, then it won't take very long to get rid of vitae at all, unless you insist on doing stupid things like taking a naked, vitae-ridden character into their normal hunting grounds without buffing just so you can die and come to the boards and whine about vitae and how you cant get rid of it.

Back in the day, I used to keep unlocked mnemosynes on my characters so I could just turn a couple in and whisk away vitae if need be. The same idea can be used today. Honestly, there ARE more options than just whining about how dying hurts now. Here's a few off the top of my head:

1) Save up a mutilator pincer and/or a few tusks
2) Fellow with others and go hunt where you normally do
3) Kill a bunch of tuskers.
4) Join one of Que's(or anyone's) macro fellows.
5) Do a quest with XP reward (QQ, whatever)
6) Fellow with some lower levels and go hunt with them
7) Go to a safer area and 'let your son/daughter/etc. play your character'
8) Quit playing, go back to your crib and suck on a bottle till you fall asleep


I'm sure theres going to have to be an ajustment period where people get used to the fact that dying is going to HURT now. Oddly enough, it isn't the vitae that's going to hurt, its going to be the rares. Once you have a couple rares that you use with you, you are going to have to be really freaking careful not to leave corpses in unrecoverable spots. The only reason anyone does so today is because they have nothing to lose besides some easily replaced DI's. At least now there's a good reason to actually think before taking that 140+ portal when you are only L145.

[BrightYellow]

Some infos/ numbers for a better discussion

- Vitae applies only to the base stats. If your war buffs to 460, 10% vitae will drop it to 422

For a level 275 standard CLaW mage, with fully maxed stats (i.e. 99.72 billion spent XP including one extra skill from the xpack - I chose healing, but the skill itself doesn't change the total amount of acting XP. The spent Xp corresponds to a level 241)

Considering only combat stats (creature, life, war, magic defense, item, mana c, stamina, health, mana):

- 5% vitae means actual base combat stats reachable by an optimal level 140 (7.1% of the XP @241)
- 10% vitae means actual base combat stats reachable by an optimal level 113 (2.6% of the XP @241)
(I had to drop a skill in my char optimizer to calculate this one, because you don't have all the skill credits at 113 - however, the calculated needed XP is correct, and corresponds to level 113)


Considering the total XP, including non-gem non-combat XP, for the same mage:

- The equivalent loss of XP for 10% vitae is 84.08 billion out of 99.72 (-84%).

Figures would be comparable for other templates, with minimal differences because of the divider (3 for melee / weapons, 2 for bow, and 4 in this example with magic schools).


This calls for some conclusions:
- assuming the only useful stats regarding clearing vitae are combat stats
- assuming even with 10% vitae: complete self-buffing with 7s, and normal activating all the majors
then we can say that when you die twice at level 275, you "act" in combat quite like a very sharp combat-oriented level 113, fully equipped like a level 275 would be (basically, the standard reroll on the accelerated path).

We all know that those 113 chars are quite powerful, and can solo easily well over 20 million an hour.

Now let's make another assumption: the content that yeilds a much higher XP/hour than the current Dereth is tuned to very high levels, requires them to fight on the edge, hence is unreachable for a level 113.

Then all we have is a sharp level 113 making his peak 20 mil/hr. How long is a vitae penalty supposed to last? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? 30 minutes? For 10 minutes, then it should cost a bit more than 3 million for the 10 vitae points, for 30 minutes it should cost about 10. We will see in a few days if that is what Turbine decided (anyone from the closed beta can comment on the vitae cost for very high levels?).


Another point to take into consideration: a level 180 will have almost the same combat stats as a level 275. When he dies twice, he will suffer just about the same penalty, and end up with just about the same virtual level 113 described above. However, the vitae to clear will be based on level 180, not 275.

If the vitae penalty is proportionnal to the char's XP, then we have an absurd situation (if it takes 10 minutes for a level 241, it would take 2 minutes at 180, and 19 at 275, all 3 having the exact same virtual level 113 to actually clean the vitae). I hope it is not the case!! :eek: This could be easily fixed by capping the calculation of the vitae penalty at the level when a char reaches its maximum combat capabilities, i.e. around 180 depending on the template.

[Korrigan]

the only people here I see that support it are those who keep bringing up xp areas and xp groups or xp grinding /turnin s to claim that it is just fine
You could not be more wrong about me. So please don't assume the way other people play, thanks.
This could be easily fixed by capping the calculation of the vitae penalty at the level when a char reaches its maximum combat capabilities, i.e. around 180 depending on the template.
Agreed.
But this is the only fix needed for the new system.
Excellent post, BrightYellow :)

[sandman]

Zeds,

I hunt about 2 hours a day. The rest of the time I'm on I'm muling, tinking, salvaging etc. Even when hunting I'm not an xp at all costs player. I open nearly every corpse that I've killed (might miss a few in spots like MHE because they decayed before I finished killing eveything in sight) and yet even with the new system I could clear vitae quickly. My level 140 axer would have no problems at all and even my level 86 us would just need to switch to MHW until the vitae was cleared which would be a few minutes.

Even if you're hunting outside, you should be able to clear your vitae quickly. I think the problem that's cropping up is that even with the level tokens, you're not getting a properly equipped and buffed character like you would have on a live server. How many players in preview are hunting with fully tinked armor with multiple majors among the pieces and a truly uber weapon/caster AND have full level 7 buffs/banes? Ask an actual LC player what if any problems they have with the vitae system. They can give an HONEST opinion as they are actually playing in close to realistic conditions.

[sandman]

Just did a bit of rough numbers crunching. At level 60 5% vitae is about 0.2% of the total xp that a character has. A maxxed uot character as about 700 times more xp than a level 60. That would equate to 5% vitae being about 180m xp, which would take time to clear. I'm not playing preview, but I'd like to know what the actual numbers are for 5% vitae for a maxxed character? I doubt that they're anywhere near 180 million xp.

[BrightYellow]

I juts read Maggie's post about the maxed char with 23% vitae. I'm not sure how it could happen, but it sure is possible. In this case, I'm afraid that the deep hole of XP that the char falls in is bottomless.

I made the same calculation as above, and for the same template (CLaW mage), the level 275/241 with 23% vitae becomes the equivalent of an optimal level 83 (-99.4% in acting XP). I can understand why she scrapped the char.

Going further, I calculated for a full 40% vitae, and the equivalent level becomes 45.

Summary:
a level 275 /241 with 5% vitae combats like an optimal level 140.
10% ==> 113
23% ==> 83
40% ==> 45

Sure, I havent experienced 40% vitae, but I'm thinking those numbers will be some kind of shock to the DT community. This skill crippling is present with today's system, but we all know that it's extremely easy to clear. Not even counting DT, we all know of some younger players who just bang their head on the wall... Never let your 11 year old son play your main with the new system!


So Korrigan, while I appreciate the praise about my post, I have to disagree with you: there is more to fix than just the cap.

[Korrigan]

Cap the xp needed to recover vitae at the level where a char has reached his top efficiency and where each added point in skills is only icing on the cake.
That should be somewhere between 126 and 150.

And please, we need more data :
How much XP does a level 270 char with 40% vitae need to recover 1% ?
If the XP is incremental, and the xp needed is equivalent to what a level 45 char can kill, then there is no problem.

[Newbie]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but what about a recovery of 50% (or X%, pick X but make it meaningful) of the vit if you recover your corpse?

Personally, 2 months after launch I will no longer drop any death items, and realistically there will be no reason at all to bother with corpses any more other than the pride of not leaving any behind (which I've always managed to avoid).

But if there was a quick reduction of half the vitae penalty for going back and getting it, that would be a nice feature I think.

Food for thought...

[BrightYellow]

How much XP does a level 270 char with 40% vitae need to recover 1% ?

We sure could use some numbers from Turbine... it's not like it's going to be a great secret in a few weeks anyway. In the meantime, we don't have enough data to give a decent feedback. Is there some legal binding that prevents someone from the closed beta to give some numbers? Like for example, before scraping a level 260, type /die until 40% vitae and report the XP needed for one vitae point after each death...

Anyway. I made tests with chars level 60, 80 and 100. The XP needed to clear one point is not related to the XP to gain one level, but looks more related to the square root of the total amount of XP (not quite though). If this is true, then it may need 100k or 200k to clear one point for a level 180 at 40%, which is a lot of XP for a level 45. Now if the XP is not capped, and carries on raising till 270...


If the XP is incremental, and the xp needed is equivalent to what a level 45 char can kill, then there is no problem.

Well, if there is no problem, then there is no problem... duh. But I'm almost sure it wasnt calculated this way (it doesnt look like it at all from the partial tests we can make now). We must remember the big blunders they made so many times. Just a few that prove they don't always make the simplest calculations: baits on armor for PK, singularity wand, gromnie teeth.

Hopefully someone authorized is reading this, and has time to triple check the formulae. It's all too easy to dump a quick and dirty polynome and compile (see the level vs. XP curve we're stuck with... it doesnt look very well thought out). We read a while ago that the internal damage test tool was not correct, and that was the reason why the weapons were so out of balance for several months. What about the tools to calculate:
- the equivalent level after a given vitae (with self buffs or buff botted)
- the effective combat skills for a given level (curves becomes almost flat after 170-180)
- the average XP/hour for an equivalent level after death (self or bot buffed), so that the vitae penalty translates into a meaningful and consistent time.

*cross fingers* :o

[Celestin]

Well, I can certainly name SOMEONE who couldn't possibly be happier with the new vitae system: Browerk.

After ToD goes live, I don't see him ever dying again.

[Hazridi]

BrightYellow: thank you for backing up my conclusions with real data. That was exactly the point I was trying to get across, namely that increasing the penalty for the billions of xp that do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is a bit like punishing someone just for having exp.

Maggie: I can help you get out of your vitae hole if you would like, we can run through the tusk dungeons.

After 15% or so you definitely need help or a lot of player skill. I wasn't capable of casting on devastator tuskers after I had 15% vitae, so I got someone to help me out.

I'm much happier now that I made my character a crossbower, though..

[Korrigan]

With 10%, and at my low level 100, I was easily casting on any VoD mob. I admit I have the best "class" for this kind of job though, CLaW mage. I could have destroyed the same mobs with 15% too.

[Zero_Washu]

I don't mind the experience costs to burn it off but I have to ask, except for PK why is their item loss anymore?

[Solandra]

"I'm much happier now that I made my character a crossbower, though..."

How's that working out Haz? ;)

Personally I like the new Vitae system, death has a bit more of a sting to it, but it can still be worked off fairly quickly, instead of instantly with a mob or two.

Heck in some cases under the old system I even had vitae expire while still in portal space to the lifestone, now that was a broken system.

Since I have yet to experience gameplay past level 131 I can't speak for uber-high level vitae, however, I don't see a reason why Turbine couldn't cap the vitae for a specific level... say 175. So a level 275 would have the same vitae penalty as a level 175 instead of millions of XP more a point.

Personally I think losing less items on death and making vitae higher is a nice trade-off, I think death should have a bit more bite to it. :)

[Zeds]

Zeds,

I hunt about 2 hours a day. The rest of the time I'm on I'm muling, tinking, salvaging etc. Even when hunting I'm not an xp at all costs player. I open nearly every corpse that I've killed (might miss a few in spots like MHE because they decayed before I finished killing eveything in sight) and yet even with the new system I could clear vitae quickly. My level 140 axer would have no problems at all and even my level 86 us would just need to switch to MHW until the vitae was cleared which would be a few minutes.

Even if you're hunting outside, you should be able to clear your vitae quickly. I think the problem that's cropping up is that even with the level tokens, you're not getting a properly equipped and buffed character like you would have on a live server. How many players in preview are hunting with fully tinked armor with multiple majors among the pieces and a truly uber weapon/caster AND have full level 7 buffs/banes? Ask an actual LC player what if any problems they have with the vitae system. They can give an HONEST opinion as they are actually playing in close to realistic conditions.






I do not hunt in fully tinked armor , with any majors at all , or with a uber caster on my normal characters on my regular server , so I am hunting/ playing nearly as well equipped as I normally do.

so that argument is not applicable

I have a ( as in ONE) level 100 char after playing since release
I stand by my statements , there was nothing wrong with the vitae penalty as it was and this is not acceptable as a change for those who dont happen to play as the people here that agree with it do.

it is set up for the xp at all costs player , the 24/7 or nearly so player , and the macroers

[Korrigan]

it is set up for the xp at all costs player , the 24/7 or nearly so player , and the macroers
Again, you are wrong, wrong, and totally wrong. I'm neither an xp player, not a 24/7 or a macro player (CERTAINLY not a macroer), and I'm still supporting the new vitae system. Read my previous posts if you want to know why, but please stop assuming that people agreeing or disagreeing with that new system can all be classified into specific categories.

[sandman]

Zeds,

I've gotten melee characters to level 126 in 4 months without macroing, and almost no xp passup from followers. If I can do this with an average of 2-3 hours a day hunting, and I repeat, I'm not an xp hog, then you're playing a suboptimal setup. I'll be brutally honest. It's taken me 5 years and 5 different servers to find the optimal setup for me. My characters on HG, SC, and WE had severe flaws that made them unplayable past mid levels. On LC I finally got a character to level 130 but even that setup was not going to work at uber levels. Now that I'm playing on VT I think I've found a setup that's actually going to work at level 150+ as a melee. By melee, I'm referring to a character that uses spells to self buff only. I can cast 7's as buffs without many failures, but I can't reliably land spells on VoD/Caul mobs. Other than MHE/Vile Darkness fellows I tend to hunt alone. Even with these parameters I doubt that I'd have much of an issue with the new vitae setup. The key IMO is to not get past 10% vitae. At 10% my level 140 axer will still have about 440 buffed axe skill. I'll still be able to hit mobs in MHE to kill vitae. I'll just need to kill more than 1 swarm mutie to do it. That's hunting solo. In a group vitae will drop even faster.

Until I see numbers from Turbine that prove that killing mass vitae isn't going to be feasable I'll continue to support the changes.

BTW, remember that as a balance feature there is no longer xp reduction for killing mobs below your level. Therefore even maxxed vitae characters will still be able to effectively hunt mobs worth about 20k each. I figure that even solo, the bulk of the vitae can be worked off quickly.

[Al-Egre Arn]

Vitae is easy to kill while in a fellow. People who usually fellow won't care about the current vitae system. People like this don't really know how much the current vitae penalty system hurts.

If you are like to solo and don't hunt in the xp-whoring areas, you are going to have trouble with the current vitae system.

This change is another demonstration of Turbine thinking that all players worship the mighty xp. Even though not all players are part of xp-whoring fellowships, Turbine catered to those players that do.

IMHO, xp from a fellowship should not help reduce the vitae penalty, just as pass-up xp does not. Maybe then more people would experience the true effect of VP.

[Hamfast]

Gees, we are about a confusing lot...

For all the years I have been coming to boards like this one, I remember thread after thread that told about how screwed up the penalty for death was in the game... it hits the lowbies hard and the High level toons it is nothing...one mob and it's gone... but Pack Space is an issue, We have to carry packs and packs of death items... same thing, over and over... we told Turbine we wanted lower (or no) item drop so we could have ample pack space for loot (among other things) and make Vitea scale up with the toons so the high level toons have to work like low level toons to get rid of it...

Turbine listened... and what do we do... we whine that the new system is too harsh...

I am guessing there is a Formula, singular, one each, that is used to determine the vitea penalty per point... this formula means that it should be about as hard at level 10 to work off the vitea as it would be for a level 100... Just what we asked for... and we are only dropping about half the DI's... again, just what we asked for...

So we either need to learn to quit asking for things (for fear we may get them) or learn to live with what WE asked for.

[thejackcat]

I juts read Maggie's post about the maxed char with 23% vitae. I'm not sure how it could happen, but it sure is possible.

Ha. Made me laugh. Believe me, it *is* possible! What can I say? I'm an explorer. I jumped blindly into the Path of the Blind in my nice shiny Olthoi Armor and was immediately pummeled to death by a pack of Lugians. That started the spiral. Then wiith no cash or death items, I had no money to buy replacement armor or weapons, so I went hunting for py in cheapo found armor and died again. And so it goes.

I have no idea how much of pain the vitae would be with a full grown high level char, but one thing to keep in mind is that there are always going to be piles of players who will *not* have maxed stats, efficient templates or majors on their mains. And they may only play an hour or two at a time a few times a week. I'd hate to see AC turn into something like UO did for me when I quit way back when. I was spending all my time building back my decaying skills and restocking my vendor. It just turned into something that was a little too much like a regular job!

Thanks for the offer to help with the Vitae, Hazridi, but I found another solution: I rolled up a mage. ;-)

[Hazridi]

I think the system is alright except for Darktide and excessively high levels where the XP doesn't do anything except get you fireworks.

I'm doing alright now, but I still find it obnoxious how long it takes to work off the vitae penalty. I played most of tonight with a penalty just because it's much, much easier to die than to work off 5 points of vitae.

[Standard]

I love it, death will actually matter for pvp again

when I started 5 years ago death mattered, and if you got too much vitae you were screwed, finally bringing at least 1 thing from the old days back

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Isn't that lovely, I have to wait 6 minutes to give Turbine feedback on their expansion that they ask us to give them feedback on