Tell us what you think of the Envoy article!

[Ibn]

The Envoys are coming! (http://ac.turbinegames.com/index.php?page_id=169)

[Yrsa]

I think "The Envoy" is an underrated Warren Zevon song. :)

[Shaz]

YAY

Good bye MS Admins.

Hello Turbine Admins...

:p

Shaz

[raretext]

Sounds great although I cant say what to make out of the AC1 robe makes me think of a the wedding sentinals

[Meri]

Looking forward to the change-over... and ty for the confirmation that the CoC isn't changing.

[MIdnightFire7]

Very nice. The robes they get for ac1 are cool looking :)

[sonohito]

implementation looks good, of course i will be waiting awhile to form an opinion on the execution

[Escanor]

My comment is neutral; the only thing I felt the article said was that the name was being changed, which TO ME, is 100% irrelevant. Once we get more information on actual performace enhancements over the currect system, then there will more to comment on :)

[Andalin]

If the +Envoys do theyre jobs I'm happy, there have been one to many occasions where I wouldnt get a response from an Admin for some time...if at all

[Yusuki]

I like that they'll just hang around in game when they're not on calls, answering questions and chatting and just dinking around.

[Zalliun]

I still find it odd that it will be alloved to scam people off their items.

[Nibiru]

I think its a bad move not altering the COC since Turbine has taken over from Microsoft.Turbine has an opportunity to step up to the plate and offer top notch costomer service and your letting it slip on by.The COC MUST cover"Griefing"The Ashesons call francise if by far the worst MMORPG as far griefers are concerened the game is filled with people who's sole person is to cause other players to get upset.


The COC needs to be expanded to include kill stealing/training and other types of abuse no other MMORPG allows that rubbish to go on.You lose far more players than you could ever imagine due to a poor coc and enforcement.You let the griefers stay and the good people quit in disgust because nothing is ever done .AC needs to be made a friendlier place for us old veterans and newbies alike not a breeding ground of adolescents looking to take there frustrations out on other people.

[gaandar]

Will the envoy robes be dyeable ;)

[Totally-Sober]

rather admin then envoy, admin accually sounds important envoy sounds like a car

[raretext]

The thing about Griefing is it's an MMORPG, players with Roles or role playing in a world. No world is perfect and should be considered that way that's why thieves are allowed to exist. You just have to self police those type of situations with a known thief list, are maybe a county jail :)

[Scenario]

Originally posted by gaandar
Will the envoy robes be dyeable ;)

Yes, actually.. it is :P

[Nibiru]

People play for enjoyment and to relax.Real Life does not pertain to MMORPG's and the role playing thing doesnt cut it what are griefers supposed to be roleplaying?Harrasssing other players through the games mechanics is not evil roleplaying its inmaturity and lack of respect for your fellow player.You lose more customers then you gain by allowing bad behavior.A few bad seeds can ruin the gameplay experiance for alot of people.

[Grilgar]

Originally posted by Nibiru
I think its a bad move not altering the COC since Turbine has taken over from Microsoft.Turbine has an opportunity to step up to the plate and offer top notch costomer service and your letting it slip on by.The COC MUST cover"Griefing"The Ashesons call francise if by far the worst MMORPG as far griefers are concerened the game is filled with people who's sole person is to cause other players to get upset.


The COC needs to be expanded to include kill stealing/training and other types of abuse no other MMORPG allows that rubbish to go on.You lose far more players than you could ever imagine due to a poor coc and enforcement.You let the griefers stay and the good people quit in disgust because nothing is ever done .AC needs to be made a friendlier place for us old veterans and newbies alike not a breeding ground of adolescents looking to take there frustrations out on other people.

Have you played other games? EQ has serious issues with "trains" DAOC has the same buff bots as AC. SWG just plain sucks and Shadowbane is an entire game full of griefers (pure PK anyone?).

Try to catch a clue before condemning the entire AC team with the "worst MMORPG" label.

[Sho Nilrem]

as many have stated :) i like the robes..... also will reserve additional opinion pending preformance but all in all am looking forward to the total change over

[Geomancer]

This is going to sound like an odd/lame request but...

Can you please require your 'envoys' to have names that at least SORT of sound like they belong in Asheron's Call?

The world got restarted the other day and the lobby message was something like, "World's up - enjoy! +Admin Grandmastah Flash".

Beyond that we've had +Admin <insert really stupid name here> of all kinds.

Sure, roleplaying isn't something you see a ton of, but it would be really nice to have +Envoy <Name that sounds like you give a darn> respond to calls.

You know?

Thanks :)

[Rauth]

Looking forward to it. :cool:

Thanks to the team for the update.


PS Interesting robes for AC Envoys - nice job Scenario!

[HeXt]

Wow, I'm impressed. I hope they do a really really good job. The game needs their help bad.

[Eschient]

"I think its a bad move not altering the COC since Turbine has taken over from Microsoft.Turbine has an opportunity to step up to the plate and offer top notch costomer service and your letting it slip on by."

There is little need to alter the CoC at this moment in time. What we NEED is +'s that are around to DO something when people report something, something that was always sorely lacking with MS.

[Aaryna]

I agree on the name bit... as ambassadors for an MMORPG, the names should show some attention payed to that. It kind of goes with the job description, I think.

I'm really looking forward to this. Over the last month, I've seen what appears to me to be drastically increased +Admin activity. Or at least, they're letting us know they're working now, where before they just did their jobs in silence which led to an uneducated assumption that they weren't there at all.

The idea of +Envoys hanging around when off-duty, just talking and taking suggestions... that leads me to believe you're actually hiring enough of them that they have not only enough manpower to cover the servers, but actual FREE TIME. Quite an achievement, when before now the rule has seemed to be to ignore anyone not related to the specific call being answered.

An actual presence in the game will go a long ways towards improving things. I hope to see actual enforcement of player character name and improper speech violations in future. Watching players with names like "Steamy Camel Toe" actually get quest GLOBALS... that's just beyond reason.

I wonder if the current +Admin staff will be transferred over, or if it will be all new people? In any case, future +Envoys, you have a hard job ahead of you, lots of difficult decisions, and alot of player expectations to confront be they realistic or not. Especially in the first couple months of what I hope will be a general cleanup. Good luck!

[Nerice]

Wondering how many you will have? Seems like there has been only 2 or 3 at a time with MS. There wasnt enough to go around so people percieved their calls was going unanswered in some respects, or just not answered at all in others due to the lack of stafffing.

If you cant give the # you will have, or want to have, then can you at least say there will be more? Hehe, I cant see anyway there could be less so it has to be the same or more. :)

[Chazcon]

Great idea. I too, like the fact that they will be a real presence in the game whether doing enforcement work or just hanging about.

As an example of what they will do, listen to tonights' experience I and my fellows had in the Singular Obsidian Repository:

Four of us buffed up at the mansion and opened a portal to the SOR. We ran all the way to the bottom, looking forward to an hour or two of monkey blasting, only to find 3 or 4 people UCM'ng amidst a HUGE pile of monkeys. One of the UCM's was the same guy who was doing it two days ago. Probably been in there ever since. I reported the lot of them and in five minutes an +Admin was in there, doing his job. None of them ever replied to us or to him and *poof* they got whacked with the banz0r stick. Three day ban he said. Ouch! Serves them right though. Our evening would have been ruined.

And the point is, the service from Turbine has already improved! A month ago we would have reported abuse like that and never heard anything back. Go Turbine, go Envoys, looking forward to what the future holds.

[Katahdin]

CoC - We'll get our arms around the rules already in place, down the road we may look at some changes, clarifications, but that will be down the road. I'm a firm believer in enforcing existing rules, not just making new ones.

Number of Envoy's - Yes there are 'more' of us.

Names - Envoy names are intentionally neutral. You will not see +Envoy Grand Mastah anything, nor will you see +Envoy Sunflower. We will roll out on March first with the names of some cities and towns around Massachusetts. I made that decision to avoid having to review every envoy name choice and how it would be perceived in the context of the game. Maybe next month we'll pick another.

See you soon!

[Dom on TD]

Does this mean you'll actually be answering urgent assistance now? I've used it about 6 times, and only once did I get a response of ANY kind. On that occasion I had to send my message twice. And the result was that I had find my own solution to a problem caused by the patch. I'm not saying that I could do a better job, but at least I would answer. I hope this change is for the better.

[Kachina]

Will *ALL* of CoC be enforced? Will I be able to go to Ayan and not be utterly humiliated and embarrassed at last? :confused:

Kachina

[Zero_Washu]

I think ya'll should use this time to change the COC to be more strict versus MACROs and similar activities. This will be the BEST chance you will get.

Frankly unless ya'll are going wield a big stick its pointless to brag about the fact you are taking over. The cess pool of macroers and similar will remain. Now, instead of being able to blame MS for all your shortcomings you will only have to look into the mirror.

[Avaton]

Does this mean someone might have time to take care of the potty-mouthed PK kiddies in Ayan now?

[Yinchi]

"I'm a firm believer in enforcing existing rules, not just making new ones."

But.. if your CoC was changed to really enforce issues, you would not need to use up Turbine's time "enforcing" as often. People need to know you truly mean what is written in the CoC. Thieves may be roleplay in other games but not in AC. People have quit this game after being scammed out of their best possessions.

Three day bans for UCM's after they have been warned (and I am sure they all know it is against the CoC) is too little. I am not saying perma ban for the first offense but a month off would give them time to think. They still brag about their xps and their little "ban".

"Now, instead of being able to blame MS for all your shortcomings you will only have to look into the mirror." Zero has it exactly right, this is Turbine's image that you want to clean up.

[Norah]

Hi, I'm a old player of ac and when I've seen the picture, I've seen the hands of char are changed, that's right or it's me ?

[Tindalos]

We will roll out on March first with the names of some cities and towns around Massachusetts.

/e waits for +Arkham, +Dunwich and +Innsmouth to lay down some Elder justice =)

[Eschient]

Yes, we all have thumbs now ;)

[Norah]

Originally posted by Eschient
Yes, we all have thumbs now ;)

Nice :o Next step ? The head, the legs or the body ? :D

[Solarch_Arcar]

I think its really funny the Envoys for AC1 are like 10x's better looking than the ones for ac2.

[Tindalos]

I think its really funny the Envoys for AC1 are like 10x's better looking than the ones for ac2.

That's 'cuz scenario r0x0rs!!!

[Sangria]

OK, here's the deal. The game has had a CoC from day one that was not really enforces unless enough people made a huge issue - then and only then would Microsoft admins do anything.

How many of you have actually read the CoC? I would like to suggest everyone review it. The rules are there and to me they are very plain.

The problem has always been no one cared enough to enforce them and there were not enough admins to take care of everything.

We dont need more rules - we need the rules we have to be enforced. Turbine has said on March 1st they will release their super hero's to save the world from potty mouths and UCM's.

We will know by April 1st if it is working. You have to give things time.

Besides, there are a lot more important things they need to do before they tackle the CoC.

[KsBabe]

IBN one question:
How does someone get to be an Envoy? Cuz I want the job,,lol

[Nibiru]

I never said AC was the " Worst' MMORPG i said it was the worst when it came to griefing and the rules being enforced.Ive played AC for over 3 years and enjoy the game imensely i just wish it could be a friendlier place.

[ApolloAce]

Here comes the new enforcement. :)

Oh to the folks mentioning macro's.

Nerfus Bufus II is a macro. Any program that does something that the original client cant is a macro. Turbine has already come down on the macros they consider a problem. They found a position between you and your opponents.

I think they made a smart choice coming down between you. That way you both know who's really in charge.

To the folks talking about kill stealing.

You cannot steal a kill as no kills specifically belong to anyone. No dungeon belongs to any specific person. No spawn is the sole property of any player. No piece of the land belongs to anyone(with the exception of the shield area inside thier own dwelling) Therefore there is no such thing as kill stealing.

To the folks talking about theft.

Theft of items while disconcerting is well within the limits of the genre. This point in time while semi-civilized, had no concept of a police force. It was self-policed by it's members. There were uncivilized fools in the best parts of it. Still are to be honest ... lol.

[_kendal_]

whew! finally the innumerable masses will have someone to complain to... cater to me *cry* *cry* ...make me happy inside...

lmao, wont be much longer now... keep up the good *cough* work turbine

PS : there must be a god in heaven since yinchi isnt an actual developer... once again, whew!

[Meri]

I realize that my experience with Admins may not be the same as everyone else's... but everytime I've had a problem IG and used Urgent Assistance, they've responded. Sometimes it's taken a while... but they've always been polite and responsive... even when they couldn't actually do anything. With one exception... which strikes me funny when I look back on it.... ;)

Back when we were all still n00bs, I fell off a mountain and instead of dying, got "stuck"... I couldn't jump... couldn't go forward, couldn't go backward... just couldn't move at all. It was before I had item magic, so recalling to the lifestone was out of the question... and I really just didn't want to use @die. ;) So... I send in a request for Urgent Assistance and to my pleasure, +Admin Zuul responds (dunno if that's who it was... just the name tickles me). But... he/she was NOT happy with me at all... and felt it was my own fault for running through the mountains to begin with. ;) So... to "fix" the problem for a level 30-something, they put me up on a plateau in the Southern Dires. Hmmm... ok... now how the heck do I get home from HERE??? Silence... and it's obvious that I won't be getting anymore help...

So... I prepared to write off yet another set of armor as unrecoverable... found a way down and ran... as far as my little legs would carry me... which ended up not be very far at all. ;) A few choice words muttered under my breath as I shimmered back into existance at the lifestone.... and pretty much all was normal again.

Anyway... back to the subject at hand. :)

I think the CoC is just fine the way it is. Let's give them a chance to actually enforce it before we start screaming. I'm hoping foul language and UCM's will be hit hard and often... but I also want to know that if I fall off another mountain.... maybe they'll take me home instead of the Dires? ;)

[Rauth]

Originally posted by Norah
Nice :o Next step ? The head, the legs or the body ? :D

Yup, I suppose thumbs, then zits, cellulite, and middle-age spread. hehe

Hey... where's Scenario running off to?


I was kidding!

[Kachina]

When I started AC, CoC was part of my obligation to follow and obey. When MS/Turbine dinged my CC, it became their obligation to enforce CoC. If all of us are going to have a fair, friendly game it has to be enforced, all of it. I agree with Yinchi.
As for the ucm thing, I have played for 4 years, and visited all the dungeons lag and my level will allow me. I have found about 3 verify able cases of ucm. It is a microscopic nowhere issue compared to lag, and account hacking.

[Mildly amused]

'I have found about 3 verify able cases of ucm. It is a microscopic nowhere issue'

Not for me. I have been chased out of serac vault by the drain macros when it was my favorite hunting ground. Some tusker dungeons are simply closed to normal players because they are macroed 24/7.

Im willing to share hunting grounds with other players and Im willing to fight over hunting grounds against other players. But seeing the automatons as they monopolize the best xp and the best loot spots is unacceptable. And I certainly dont need the usual 'hunt somewhere else'-advice.

I hope Im right when I predict that CoC enforcment (or lack of) floats -or sinks- your boat, Turbine.

[_kendal_]

this makes me roflmao. there is always gonna be something for players to complain about... cant u devs see that yet? you took away macroing, and now ppl whine about enforcing. i bet even when u do start enforcing there is going to be a new ucm related issue that ppl will continue to complain about. i honestly dont think u guys get it yet, but its real funny to watch the fumblings of the blind in the meanwhile.

btw... i need something to whine about so i can be like all the other players, so could u please nerf something? anything? that would be super, thanks :D

[SCM]

Originally posted by Katahdin
Names - Envoy names are intentionally neutral. You will not see +Envoy Grand Mastah anything, nor will you see +Envoy Sunflower. We will roll out on March first with the names of some cities and towns around Massachusetts. I made that decision to avoid having to review every envoy name choice and how it would be perceived in the context of the game. Maybe next month we'll pick another.

See you soon!

As it is an international game, can we have some non American content/names please.


ApolloAce said:
"Oh to the folks mentioning macro's.

Nerfus Bufus II is a macro. Any program that does something that the original client cant is a macro."

Anybody who uses repeat attack function uses a macro.


As for the name "Envoy", who cares what they are called, all I want to see is a response time less than 1 hour.
If responses are going over this time then there is either a lack of staff or serious problems with the worlds, in which case they should shut the worlds down & fix the problem.

I want an Envoy robe for the museum :D

[ApolloAce]

Thats right SCM combat macros are macros as well.

My point is if you use any program not included in the client you are a macroer.

Thats not bad, all those programs up to and including ACM are allowed.

I do however think it's kind of silly and childish to see macroers(third-party program users) insulting and attacking one another when their no different and just as guilty as the rest ... lol.

[Toxeus]

I don't care whether they are called +Envoys or +Admins, so long as we see some enforcement of the CoC. That's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned.

[HeXt]

Originally posted by Katahdin
CoC - We'll get our arms around the rules already in place, down the road we may look at some changes, clarifications, but that will be down the road. I'm a firm believer in enforcing existing rules, not just making new ones.

Number of Envoy's - Yes there are 'more' of us.

Names - Envoy names are intentionally neutral. You will not see +Envoy Grand Mastah anything, nor will you see +Envoy Sunflower. We will roll out on March first with the names of some cities and towns around Massachusetts. I made that decision to avoid having to review every envoy name choice and how it would be perceived in the context of the game. Maybe next month we'll pick another.

See you soon!

Hmmm....
Envoy Charlestown
Envoy Westwood
Envoy Norwood!!!!
Envoy Chelshea...
Envoy Lynn.. :o
Envoy Boonies in the sticks? hehehe cool.


Now wait a sec... there's complete lists of towns in MA readily available around, why would you reveal that plan and give the list of your entire team to the cheats? :/

[Avaton]

Hehe I think it would be cool to name them after towns in northern Florida. "+Envoy Wewahitchka", "+Envoy Sneads", and my personal favorite "+Envoy Two Egg"

:D

[MIdnightFire7]

heh. think of all the weird names they could find if they used names of towns in the whole us. West Virginia has a town called "Odd"..imagine running into +Envoy Odd

[Toxeus]

As I said, so long as they enforce the CoC, despite what the cheaters say. Make the permabans permanent and get some order restored to the game.

Here's a tip: Start at Phyntos Menace. :mad:

[Osrik]

Other than a change of name the article didn't have much in the way of information. The thing I would like to see is a clear commitment by Turbine to provide a decent level of support. It would nice if the urgent assistance button could actually start being usefull for something.

[Myk]

A name change doesn't fix the problems. I don't care if they are called +turbines all-and mighty super game rep, if they cant help players. A glass of water by anyother name is still a glass of water.

[Fiction_LC]

as long as their there when you need um its great but if its like MS

"im stuck in a hill"
30 min later "im stuck in a hill"
2hrs later
"im stuck in a hill"
"Hi im +billy how can i help you!"
"im stuck in a hill"
....................
"dude im in a hill"
"Hi im +billy your stuck in a hill?"

[Relique]

Thieves may be roleplay in other games but not in AC. People have quit this game after being scammed out of their best possessions.



If you get scammed, it's pretty much your fault for not checking every item in the trade window..


But anyways, great job Turbine, keep it up! :cool:

[tdm-sc]

So, how do I become an envoy?

Max

[Zeds]

in answer to Grilgar on page one

I have played EQ for years before coming to AC yes they have people who train mobs on others ... but when the issue is reported Sony does something about it , I personally know people who have had thier accounts permanently cancelled due to that behavior

DAOC suxxored so bad i didnt stay around long enough to find out what problems it had ...


there are many other games I have played and , as much as I love AC and I truly do Love AC , it is the worst when it comes to CoC enforcement to date.

As long as the Envoys are going to actually enforce the CoC, I love it (this means the potty mouths , the UCMs and other violations as well) and hand out punishments that actually mean something , I have hear UCMers doing exactly what another poster said bragging about how they got mega xp before they got their "little" ban and planning their next trip to do the same.

I believe a month ban id appropriate for the first offense of UCMing , they KNOW it is against the CoC, on the second , wipe their account , not just ban it , wipe it and ban that cd key or better yet thae CC they use to buy it.

the foul language around Ayan is common knowledge,some nice few days off to think about it would maybe stop or at least slow them down.

BTW UCMs aka macros in the lingo of the boards , is much different than NB2 UCM is against the CoC NB2 is not

[NatureofSC]

Back in the days of Advocates I enrolled with my main toon on HG called IMLOST. Well shortly after starting training I was told that would not be an appropriate name for an Advocate so I had to level another character like mad to take the place of my main to be able to be an advocate.
Imagine a helper named Imlost, duh. Can look back and laugh now , was kind of upset at the time.

Hope this new generation of helper will have many of the values we had as Advocates and be helpers instead of police for the politically motivated.

[Lutieus]

Only halfway irrelevant: Will Turbine's AC tech support staff cover things like connectivity issues?

[Fade-To-Black]

"If they are not busy with calls, you may be able to find Envoys in the world, where you can chat with them or ask them questions."

So you mean we'll ACTUALLY see some roaming, and they might have time to stop to talk?!

Greatest thing I've heard in quite a while. Go Turbine ;)

--Fade

[Katahdin]

Originally posted by Lutieus
Only halfway irrelevant: Will Turbine's AC tech support staff cover things like connectivity issues?

They will.

[Lunchbox_VN]

I love this idea and can't wait to see one in game soon :)


Maybe they can tell me why dereth is flat!

[Ibn]

Originally posted by Tindalos
/e waits for +Arkham, +Dunwich and +Innsmouth to lay down some Elder justice =)

I jokingly suggested those, actually, along with some other hard-to-type Massachusetts town names like Manchester-by-the-Sea.

Katahdin glared at me. :)

[Toxeus]

Isn't Mount Katahdin the tallest mountain in Maine??

If it is, and Katahdin is the big-boss-envoy, then why aren't her minions using town names from Maine?

[the-dark-one]

ok so she seems to be ignoring me on the other thread, i'll ask here:


(Me)
So.. if we've been banned by microsoft in the past for foul language/etc, do we alragainst us? eady have strikes

Or clean slate as of the 1st of March?
(end me)

(Response)
Re: Renaming and other questions

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Katahdin (Turbine Enovy lady)
Renaming is new tech.
Thus the 'I'll keep you posted' section and the 'don't panic' section.

I've been watching lots of these UCM tests. 30 seconds is plenty of time. Limbo supresses combat messages. See my explanation in the body of the original message.

Perma Bans from MS. I will review them if they are appealed, however it's been my experience that they were fair. Read that to mean no promises.

Past bans WILL be considered when counting 'strikes'.

Yes, we will be enforcing MS terms of service and Zone rules while we are still using their Zone for login.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(end response)


(me)
Um.. and if we have 3 bans for some-such thing already? I guess I won't be logging in then anymore, might as well unsub if i'm gonna be out for a year as of the 1st.

[JJC]

+Envoy Stockbridge, and there better be one, should be tough on littering.

[Nalrach]

Humm!!

This annoucement could mean a lot or just be a flop.

When MS cancelled the Advocate / Sentinel program, and replaced the 600+ volunteers by 7 +Admins, we quickly saw what was to become; CoC been violated, foul language and explecite sexual comments in the opens, long wait for assistance, call's not even been acknowledge.

As a dispatcher on MT, I always acknowledge the player I was seeking help for him. Since Sentinels only had the power to teleport others & be invisible to withness offences, I sometime had to seek them from other servers. But we always could get the user some help in a reasonnable time. Sentinel's where the CoC kepers and quick helpers if bugged down. Advocate where mainly embassador in the game helping new users to adapt to the game, take info's on bug and report. We had a great relation with the developper's.

If the envoy's are just a replacement of the +Admins, and no increase in staff size, then the service will not be better. To ensure a wide coverage Turbines need to re-instate in some form or other the advocate / sentinels in their envoy solutions.

If Turbine increase the pool of the envoy's to include volunteer's or re-instate a pseudo combine Advocate / Sentinels, I would be proud to return to AC and to be counted in and server the communauty.

Best whish to the envoy's'

[Katahdin]

We'll probably get around to being Envoy Harpswell, Casco, Wells, Portland, etc etc, but I thought it would be a nice shout out to Turbine being in Ma.

As I've said elsewhere - if you have past bans, they will be reviewed if you get banned now, with Turbine at the helm. I'm interested if the current violation (lets say profanity) is habitual, and if it's something you are getting banned for every week.

[KirillHuntersun]

Nalrach, it won't ever happen, for the same reason that the Sentinel/Advocate program was deadlined in the first place - there are serious legal liability issues in a for-profit company using volunteer labor in a for-profit enterprise.

As anyone playing the game will tell you, the response times have improved drastically, and while I don't know how many Envoys they hired, the impression I'm getting from response times and other activities is that there are hell of a lot more of them than just 7.

[Eruditus]

I have nothing but good things to say about the envoys over the past month, esp admin Dread who got me unstuck within a few mins on patch day when I was at the bottom of a dungeon and could not get away by any means.

I have also heard nothing but good things about how they are dealing with things in the world and oldly I have seen a decrease in trash talk over the past few weeks too.

Glad to see Turbine can manage to do something right!

[Nalrach]

Kiril ... first, I must say that never Turbine treated us as labor, and I don't think they would ever have dare so. Our role and benifit was clearly define. Plus we were a volunteer organization withing the game. We were not hired. If other game owner have pass the fine line between volunteers & workers, it should not be everyone else to pay. I think it was more MSoft wanting to get rid of the volunteer so they could screw the game then legal mathers. Decause an agreement could have been drawn as they do during the beta with the NDA.

I have no doubt if Turbine took control and they handle the game as they did in thier early days .. it will all be good for the players.

[KirillHuntersun]

Turbine HAS control of everything except tech issues, NetOps, and billing. They're running the admin service. And Ibn has, in the past, informed us that there are legal liability issues with using volunteer groups in a for-profit organization. It's simple prudence to NOT use volunteers if there is a danger of their being sued over it, and there is, because there are lawsuits far more ridiculous than suing a service provider for using volunteer labor as customer support going forward in the courts right now.

Whether you were treated as labor or not, the fact remains that Turbine was using you to provide a level of customer support to their customers without paying you and were in fact making a profit off of a service they were providing and you were supporting. And that puts them at danger of being held liable, so they simply cannot do it.

[Nalrach]

Yeap! your rigth their is law suit for the most rediculous thing. And from a view up North , American's (in generals) do like to file suit for everything. When I did my first-aid instructor course we discussed the "good samaritain" law, we were told in the US your screwed, because they will sew you if you don't help, and they will sew you because of any small issues. Now these days people sew McDo because they fat. But we are not here to defend the views and rigths of individuals to file suit left and rigth.

I'm just telling you how it was when EQ got their puisuit, we the volunteer communauty had no issues with Turbine. And yes, if all the facts that we were told are true. That game company enforcing that thier volunteer developped content was, not in the mandate of a volunteer support group, and they earn their suit. If they had sty within the concept of user suppot volunteer group, they never would have go suit.

I will re-instate what I said .. a group of 5-10, cannot cover the ground that 600+ pair of eyes and ears did. The language, KS, and other playing behaviour had become soo bad that I personnally know a dozen players that left the game because of that issue.

My best whish and hope goes to Turbine and their staff, they had a nice concept, until MS got in the picture. I hope they can give it back that Turbine carring feeling about it.

[FmrSentFlatfoot]

Kirill:
It's simple prudence to NOT use volunteers if there is a danger of their being sued over it, and there is, because there are lawsuits far more ridiculous than suing a service provider for using volunteer labor as customer support going forward in the courts right now.

Yet isn't it strange that Microsoft uses the services of over 3,000 MemberPlus Volunteers, and has no problem keeping them AS volunteers, without any worry of being taken to court in a lawsuit. So this whole fiasco with Asheron's Call Volunteer program and them saying they cannot take on volunteers anymore because of the UO Lawsuit scandal, is just rubbish.

I've sent Turbine many emails telling them HOW to do it. It's really very, very elementary, and if they followed through, could have 600+ people again doing the work for FREE.

How? Have their legal department draw up an affidavit, confirmed and stamped by a Notary, which when SIGNED by the accepted applicant, binds them to do the job which they have agreed, and that they know there will not be any remuneration forthcoming, and that to even attempt to sue for wages would result not only in dismissal, but a possible counter-suit (which they would obviously lose). No one would dare contest such a thing once they signed it! lol

Anyone who is paid to do a job serving the public, cares more about their paycheque than the public they're serving. That's just simple logic. Those who agree to serve the public for FREE, care more about helping the public than anything else, since there is nothing else for them to look forward to, other than maybe a kind word here and there by a pleased individual that thanks you for the service you have done for them.

So why doesn't Turbine use volunteers? Search me?! There's no valid reason why they wouldn't, and a whole pile of reasons why they should.

Back in the old days when there were Advocates, +World Overseers, +Sentinels, Chancellors, and their respective Managers; Dereth was a good CLEAN, fun game for the whole family. As soon as they removed all those volunteers, the whole population in terms of foul language, racial/sexual slurs and related connotations went straight to hell on a grease slide, and it'll take a miracle to ever get it back to how it was, if it ever could be.... and it's going to take a whole lot more than the few +Envoys they've hired, even if they've hired 50 of them.

To cover 8+ servers 24/7, takes WAY more than 50 people, given a 2 hour shift schedule. No way you can expect anyone to do an +Envoy job for 8 hours a day straight. The burn-out rate would be very high. They'd have to do it like it was before. 2 hour shifts, 3 or 4 if you're a masochist. +Envoy is an extremely thankless job for the most part... they need a break after a short time on duty.

Yea yeah so I'm long winded... sue me. :p

We need volunteers again.. it's the ONLY way to ensure people get the help they want within 3 minutes of issuing the call... sooner than 3 minutes is even better, especially if you wish to catch some foul-mouthed miscreant in action. So much easier when you catch someone with their hand in the cookie-jar, than only find out much later what happened, and now it's over with. The only way you can do that is via having 1 or 2 +Envoys on duty 24/7 per server. So in 2 hour shifts, you need 48 people to cover each server, 36 if you have 12 hours of 2, and the other 12 hours of 1 on duty. So 8 servers, 36 each per day = 288 +Envoys. You laugh? Hey, it could be done.. we did it before.

All it requires is training to be sure you have people that know the CoC and will apply it by the book, without partiality. Not allowed to divulge your identity to anyone in-game whether on or off duty... that way if your best friend is guilty of a CoC breach, either you can handle it like they were someone you didn't know, or you could get another +Envoy to handle it so your own judgement wouldn't be thwarted and you wind up playing favorites. :eek:

Whether you were treated as labor or not, the fact remains that Turbine was using you to provide a level of customer support to their customers without paying you and were in fact making a profit off of a service they were providing and you were supporting. And that puts them at danger of being held liable, so they simply cannot do it.

Yes they can, but they won't... because it's too much work to coordinate that many people. Actually, it isn't too much work, since it was done before. I guess they just don't wanna be bothered saving a ton of cash and provide 100X better player support. *shrug*

Throw the volunteers a T-Shirt and a keychain holder etc now and then... you'd be surprised what that does to boost the morale of people who are willing to do a thankless job for FREE... it makes them even more loyal.. FOR FREE! FREE! FREE! NO MONEY OUTLAY!

*SIGH*

Anyway, I've said enough.... we need the Volunteers back. Simple as that.

[FmrSentFlatfoot]

Addendum:

Further to my first response here, why are they called "Envoy"?

The game is still called Asheron's Call, is it not? Lord Asheron has made appearances, so we know he does exist, and we also know he still lives. If he were to ever die, then the game should also die. You couldn't just rename it to something else.

Look at the statues that give credit to those who served. Well, the removal of Advocates, Sentinels, etc., was a Microsoft thing (thanks to KK) and even Turbine (at the time was dead set against it, but had no say in the matter). Well, now they own AC, and they should keep the original concept and revive Asheron's Order of Sentinels, and Strathelar's Order of Advocates.

Trying to revive a game to how it used to be, and then using different titles of authority figures is kinda weird, y'know? Makes it look like Asheron killed all his personal guards, the Sentinels, and Strathelar killed all the Advocates, who actually were more reminiscent of what an Envoy should be. Actually, the two words Envoy and Advocate are much closer related to each other than they are to Sentinel. It's like apples and oranges.

So who's idea was it to name Sentinels, Envoys? lol

[Ibn]

There's a big difference between a Sentinel and an Envoy, the most basic one being that Sentinels were players who were volunteering, while Envoys are paid employees.

Personally, as an ex-Advocate, I'd prefer to see the Advocate and Sentinel remain retired. In general we feel that Envoy shows the distinction and also better describes the role that the Envoy plays in Dereth.

[FmrSentFlatfoot]

Okay, but that still doesn't give a reason WHY the Sentinels/Advocates just vanished, and why we'll never see them back. The statue is nice sorta (even though a slap in the face to those of us who served, since it forever alienates us from the jobs we once did and still to this day feel we are better suited for, most especially for the experience we've gleaned over the years), but if no explanation as to their removal is given, other than the "you shall not be forgotten", then we have a missing link in AC Lore.

Many people who came in after they were gone, see the statues and wonder what they mean, right? lol So then people interested in game lore (yes I know most people really could care less, and only want to play) will never know what they meant, what their roles were, and what great climactic event saw their removal, apart from the real-life reason. As an ex-advocate yourself, you must've also felt the tip of the blade just before it got shoved in? We were never given a reason... we were just removed. But people who never got to partake in av3/av1/backchat will never fully understand who we were until some kind of lore event is dreamed up, which I suppose is already too late to add in. *shrug*

Envoy: official representative: somebody acting as a diplomat on behalf of a national government or sent as an official messenger on behalf of a higher authority

Diplomats don't normally approach the general public, brandishing an iron to use against them in a show of force or to exact some form of harsh punishment... but...

Sentinel: guard something: to stand guard over something or a group of people

DOES show a form of one who is able to show force and exact harsh punishments against those who upset the applecart, in protection of others. That is the role of what this game is supposed to have, right from the original concept. One who represents and guards the people against those who attack the establishment in order to bring upset and chaos.

Anyway, not my call I guess... you're using Envoys now, even though the word denotes a form of Powerless Politician that works for and with a government; whereas Sentinels are the protectors of the people against attackers.

So, you've changed the definition of a word.

Personally, as an ex-Advocate, I'd prefer to see the Advocate and Sentinel remain retired.

Wow, that's almost like stabbing your own siblings in the back. You didn't enjoy your advocate job? Still no reason to deny all the rest of them their role in dereth. Most of us poured our heart and soul into that work, and you seem to brush it off as worthless insignificance. geez...

I still think Sentinel (at least) should return in force. Volunteers CARE. Paid employees also care, but they care about the money you're paying them more than the people they're serving.

[Ibn]

When I said that the titles should be retired, I meant with honor. That is why we have the statues at the capitol cities. If we could bring back the Advocate and Sentinel volunteer programs, then absolutely we could bring back the titles. But I would not want to see the volunteer titles on paid employees, it just wouldn't seem right.

I would be thrilled if we could bring the volunteer program back, but in the current legal climate it is just not possible.

[Blau]

For those of you that don't know what he's talking about...

AOL was sued by its "volunteers". They were very similar to the advocates. The volunteers won their law suit and AOL had to pay them despite the fact that they were volunteers.

As a result, firms simply can't do this any more. It's too big a risk.

Edit: here a link to the story:

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-226360.html?legacy=cnet

[Chrono]

How does Funcom accomplish this with their ARK system in Anarchy Online then?

[JJC]

By not being a USA based company.

JJC

[FmrSentFlatfoot]

Blau:

AOL was sued by its "volunteers". They were very similar to the advocates. The volunteers won their law suit and AOL had to pay them despite the fact that they were volunteers.

Where do you see that they "won" their lawsuit? Nowhere in the article does it state they won, not even in the update links. Here's what it DID say though:

AOL could have to pay up to $20 million if all current and former volunteers jump on the bandwagon and the suit is successful, the Times estimated.

Notice "and the suit IS successful"? Well, currently, now, after 5 years, it still isn't successful. It likely won't be either.

Microsoft MemberPlus Program still uses the services of over 3,000 "+" members as "volunteers". These people sit in chat rooms, help rooms, etc., etc., ad nauseum to monitor, assist, teach, etc., and none of them get one red penny for it. None of them have yet filed a class action lawsuit, because the agreement they signed states that it's a "volunteer" program, and by the very definition of the word:

Volunteer

1. somebody who works for free: somebody who works without being paid
2. somebody who does something voluntarily: somebody who does something, especially something undesirable, without being forced to do it
3. law somebody acting without legal obligation: somebody who performs an act or participates in a transaction without being legally bound to do so and without expecting to be paid
4. law somebody given property: somebody who receives property without having to pay for it or give anything in return

Notice a trend about the word "Volunteer"? Yes, it very clearly means that you get NOTHING as payment for the service you provide. You do it of your own volition.

So, I highly doubt AOL members will win anything, else the law is a farce, meaningless drivel that has no merit or honour.

As a result, firms simply can't do this any more. It's too big a risk.

That's where you're wrong. IF a firm spends a day or two and draws up a legally binding contract designed to use the services of Volunteers, and has this contractual agreement stamped by a notary, then you can very easily take on volunteers, and have them sign the agreement which plainly states that they can NEVER file for suit, for wages, since the work they AGREED to perform is FREE across the board.

Of course you can have volunteers! MemberPlus still does... there's the proof, and no one there has signed any contract.

So all this baloney about Turbine not being able to use them anymore due to legal issues, is really just that... baloney. All they need do is draw up a legal binding contract between them and the volunteers, and POOF! Like Magic... you have 100s of former qualified people doing the work that paid +Envoys do, for FREE.

If letting the +Envoys go would make you feel guilty... then keep them as supervisory staff of the volunteers (if their experience qualifies them for such a role). But in terms of those who do the work, all of them could be volunteers working for NADA, like we all used to. ;)

Big question is: Would you allow them to do the work they did when AC first started and really tackle the foul-language and general griefing of other players? That's a HUGE issue and an even bigger problem than it ever was. UCM is a serious problem, but controlling foul speech and griefing of other players who just want to have fun is much bigger in scope.

The statues were a slap in the face when they got plopped down on their respective plots of land. 98% of the volunteers were not very happy to see those statues, especially the advocates who saw the signs of their existence entirely removed from the Advocate Towers. Instead of total removal, you should've changed the signs to honour the Advocates, and thank them for all passers-by to take note. But no, nothing.. not a word of gratitude. Couldn't do that for Sentinels as they were primarily "@cloak on" most of the time.

Why not see the Sentinel titles on paid employees? A Sentinel is a Sentinel is a Sentinel.. paid or volunteer. The word Envoy does not convey the job they are doing in-game currently, unless they took a 100% stand-off approach from player contact, which they don't. Therefore Sentinel was the correct title, and hence was used from day one of game concept.

Nowhere does it state Lord Asheron has Envoys at his disposal.. but in AC Lore, Lord Asheron did have the Sentinels at his beckon call to assist the inhabitants of Dereth. Same goes for Strathelar's Advocates. So until you change the storyline Lore (which is now too late <shoulda been done when Ken shut the whole program down>), the game will always use the word Sentinel as the protectors of the citizens of Dereth.

What's an Envoy? Not a protector of the people, that's for sure. Envoy is a servant of the government and has little to no contact with the general public. So Envoy is the "wrong" title.

+Admin was also dead wrong...

Anyway, that's it from me.. I've now bashed this topic to death and nothing else I say will make any difference, unless some of it rubs off, and changes are made to reflect what should've been kept from the start, and not gone way off-track into other things that make no sense.

I would be thrilled if we could bring the volunteer program back

You can! Turbine's Legal Department could draw up the details in a couple of days, and poof! Start taking back the volunteers!

Helen Ra:
An experienced lawyer with nearly a decade of corporate law experience, Helen Ra joined Turbine in December 2003 and serves as the Company’s General Counsel. In this role, she oversees all of Turbine’s legal matters, contracts, amendments, corporate documentation, legal policies and more, as well as serving as an advisor to the Board of Directors.

Bingo! You have the right person capable of drawing up the contract for volunteers. All legal, no chance for any lawsuits.

So what's with the but in the current legal climate it is just not possible. comment? It IS possible. Just ask Helen! :)

P.S. If MemberPlus can have 3,000+ Volunteers; Turbine can have 500+ or whatever it needs.

Also, If it was wrong for a paid employee to use the name "Sentinel" in their title, then how could Microsoft get away with paying "Sentinel Mgr Traber". as his game character was known?

[JJC]

Federal law prohibits people working for free where a company would otherwise have to staff it with paid employees. VIP and Member plusses aren't services that MS would supply and thus allowed as free labor. Customer Service like the Sent and Advocate programs are positions that Turbine would (and currently does) have paid employees so it would open them up to lawsuits.

You can not contractually obligate yourself to work for free or below the minimum wage in the USA.

Member plusses and the VIP programs aren't customer any more than me answering questions here or in the tech support forum are customer service.

JJC

[FmrSentFlatfoot]

Federal law prohibits people working for free where a company would otherwise have to staff it with paid employees.

That doesn't even make sense, because if the company decided not to staff it with paid employees, then they could have people working for free? heh

Anyway, I see now what's going on as I've delved a bit further into the AOL affair, and from what I've seen there, having happened early 1999, and I was a volunteer for Asheron's Call in early 1999 right through to 2001, then technically I could sue Turbine/MS for back wages? Yes I actually could... I'm now quite surprised none of us did... but then I suppose that plainly states that none of us did because we understood what the word "volunteer" meant. *shrug*

However... I still don't think it's right that such a law exists. If people want to donate their time to what THEY figure is a good cause, the government shouldn't stick their nose in it and say they're not allowed. That's not democracy, that's repressive communism.

I'm gonna clue in more on this issue... it's very interesting. ;)

Can never know too much, and knowing too little is unacceptable.

P.S. Service like the Sent and Advocate programs are positions that Turbine would (and currently does) have paid employees so it would open them up to lawsuits.

Um, but wait a second here... they didn't always have paid employees doing the Sent and Advocate program(s). It's only since 2001 that this changed, and it only changed as a result of the UO scandal. So technically, had they just kept the Sent and Advo programs without paid employees, then volunteers could've continued? Hmmmmm.. Must do more digging.... there's more to this.

[JJC]

> That doesn't even make sense, because if the company decided not to staff it with paid employees, then they could have people working for free? heh

Exactly. It also prevents such nasty stuff as indentured servitude and slavery. The government has an interest in keeping people working productively and with pay so they can pay taxes and go out and buy goods and grow the economy.

> So technically, had they just kept the Sent and Advo programs without paid employees, then volunteers could've continued? Hmmmmm.. Must do more digging.... there's more to this.

No. Not paying them while filling paid positions is the issue even if they have never needed to pay anyone for the work. The question is "would they have to pay people to do that work if all the volunteers left" and in the case of Sents and Advocates the answer is unquestionably yes.

JJC

[Honest John]

There are also some other specifics required. Such as:
Required amount of time to work,
set schedules
duties required
Etc.

Member+ (Zone help) for example, does not reqire any minimum work time or schedule other than to log in once per month.

The type of services provided also are a factor.

One of the issues in the UO volinteer help case was the unpaid folks actualy directed and controled content in the game. Duties that would have required a paid person to do if not for the free help

None of this has been settled in a courtroom yet, including the AOL suit. Until then, use of volinteers is being done very carefully. A company has to evaluate the risk of having the volinteers. If they guess wrong, they could be in big trouble down the road.

MS simply decided the risk was not worth the benifit.

PS> Hi all you old OLT members. I was Overseer John. Nice to see so many still active in the game.

[FmrSentFlatfoot]

Heya John! Yeah, as soon as I saw the name pop up in my email I had to jump in and see what was up. Good to see you also hanging about. I sure miss the old days....

It's true there are no minimum work times or schedules for Member+, but Advocate/Sentinel duties sure required a fixed number of weekly hours, eight to be exact (I often did 20+) at specified shift time sheet requirements.

Maybe MS figured the risk was not worth the benefit, but if the courts vote in favour of the claimants, it will put to end all future possible volunteer work, plus we could all then demand compensation, since we DID do the work for over two years. heh

Well, maybe others can.. but I won't since to me a volunteer still means you do a job for NO PAY.

Overseer Belgarath is still with us... just hiding on other toons. lol