What's with fights taking 40 minutes?

[Dread_Og]

That tells me something is seriously wrong with the current damage. You used to beat other mages by hitting with 2 wars, but now even after damage upgrade, you can still tank every single time. Yeah, you can get lucky and 2 shot somebody, but it's just that, luck. The problem is that the low end range of war damage is so low (140-200). Wars shouldn't be hitting for less than 200. 200-300 every single time would be perfect.

A mage should die in 2 wars. A melee should die in 3 wars. Aegis bonus can be adjusted accordingly to reach that balance.

[Sizlunt DT]

I agree almost 100% except I think melee's should die in two as well.

[ChildoftheKoRn]

That tells me something is seriously wrong with the current damage. You used to beat other mages by hitting with 2 wars, but now even after damage upgrade, you can still tank every single time. Yeah, you can get lucky and 2 shot somebody, but it's just that, luck. The problem is that the low end range of war damage is so low (140-200). Wars shouldn't be hitting for less than 200. 200-300 every single time would be perfect.

A mage should die in 2 wars. A melee should die in 3 wars. Aegis bonus can be adjusted accordingly to reach that balance.

Life was totaly different then back then, not to mention with Majors.

This is not nor ever will be like the old days ever again, the game has become too item dependant. And no they shouldnt make everything like the old days fo rthe highest levels because then it unbalances lower levels. And the 140 thats usually being if its on a vulned person with lvl 7 debuffs majors and low end aegis.

[justinhutchins]

Yeah I am level 98 Melee.....and i am still getting one shot with wars after a vuln....lets go ahead and up that damage.

Sometimes you guys forget about the other people.

[Dread_Og]

I recently leveled up a character, and I had over 400 hp by level 100. With the range I gave (200-300), there's no reason you should be getting 1 shot. Either way, this isn't a fps where everybody is equal, it's an rpg where levels, template, and equipment matter. If you want to be competitive, then put some effort into your character. The game should be balanced for 450 hp and full wards, which everybody has on DT.

Btw, the damage range I give is against a mage in major wards. With 467 war, I hit for as low as 140 (quite often), and as high as 285 (very rarely). I'm saying the low end of the range should be gotten rid of. You shouldn't be hitting for less than 200. I gave 200-300 as an ideal range.

As for melees I hit for as low as 100, and as high as 220.

I'm not asking for wars to hit harder than they do, just that they vary less.

[Sizlunt DT]

Yeah I am level 98 Melee.....and i am still getting one shot with wars after a vuln....lets go ahead and up that damage.

Sometimes you guys forget about the other people.

Lol Jesus Christ. Nobody is going to even remotely entertain the idea of balancing damage around level 98 melee's lmao. If you are getting 1 hit by wars then you need to spend some time putting points into endurance and health.

[Sizlunt DT]

As for melees I hit for as low as 100, and as high as 220.

I'm not asking for wars to hit harder than they do, just that they vary less.

I think that they should hit a little higher out of loot wands, and yes, vary less as well. Loot is still kinda crapola for PvP.

I want the min damage for wars to be 190, maybe variance of 190-250, with higher crits. Haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it here, haven't crunched the numbers for how to balance it with CB.

[max_evil]

The game should be balanced for 450 hp and full wards, which everybody has on DT.

Dread og, u forget &/or miss that NOT everyone has pre order gem.
and NOT everyone has full wards.

they give some people the 10% health gem bonus.
then up damage.

the main people that lose out are the ones that don't have the bonus.

-max

[Dread_Og]

I already advocate getting rid of the hp gem, or giving everyone one. If they just get rid of it, damage may not need to be changed so much.

[justinhutchins]

The idea of balancing a game around the fact that everyone is maxed is a flawed idea i'm afraid. Maybe i am an extreme case but never the less, no new customers would come if that were the case and NO not everyone has full hp+gem+wards. I would actually say that more people dont have all those maxed.

While we are at it, lets do this; make all the mobs across dereth only be able to killed if all stats are maxed with a gem and wards and make level 1-100 just a time pool where you have to wait 1 month before you can play the game. Actually, lets just let everyone start out with maxed stats. Would that fall in to your balance scheme?

Don't balance it around a level 98 but do, in fact, provide balance across the board because it would not be balance if that were not so(and no im not saying a level 50 should be able to kill a level 200...)

Its 5am and if you think i put any thought into this, you are wrong, but if you can come up with some counter example to this criticism, i would be glad to continue after rest.

[Dread_Og]

Great. I get to argue with some noob from a white server who thinks he can lecture me on pvp balance. What's your point? Do you think you should have a chance on a poorly equipped level 98 melee? Why? Pvp is competitive. And to get competitive you have to get enough levels, high hp, and full wards. Everybody who is serious about it has done this. As it is already, a level 100 should never beat a level 200. Somebody with wards should never lose to somebody without them. Increasing low end war damage won't change these things.

They could implement the 200-300 damage wars as level 8's, so your noob pvp won't be affected. A level 100 mage won't be able to cast them. Happy?

LOL and when I say a level 100 should never beat a level 200, the level 100 should get absolutely annihilated. You're acting like they even have a chance now, and my idea would mess it up. Yeah, right. You can't pvp on a level 100, especially a melee without wards.

[Ftuoil_Xelrash]

The problem is they went WAYYYYY THHHEEE HEEELLLL in the other direction on templates. So what you have now instead of 73246120836 mages, is 73246120836x2 Melee's and no one can kill each other anymore....


So much for balance...

[Monster]

It stopped being a two shot game as soon as people pumped up their hp. I remember easily double tanking the focus stone with 360 hp and eating 6 wars up close with quick s2h's and m2h's. I won alot of fights that way.

Double shots do occur frequently and if not a quick follow up streak will finish em off. Two shot everytime even if you are properly equipped with full wards and 454 hp? Rediculous. Completely defeats the purpose of being any of that. I like the balance they have now. Just gotta get in the other guys face and make him eat more wars than you do.

[Jida]

1) People will always play the obviously best template.
2) For over 5 years (being gentle here) it was obviously a mage.
3) Now it is obviously melee with Tugak.


Everyone in the hot spots (well it seems that way) will run up to you with a wand and try to Raven you first. It happens all the time. Unless you are AFK or severly lagged it does not work of course but they try.

For years defenses were being raised across the board. Once again, without thinking through the impact on DT.

40 minutes for a fight? Sounds good to me. It should take a long time to kill someone if you are equally matched.

40 minutes to kill anyone regardless? Sounds bad and frustrating like the old God Mode days.

[Dread_Og]

I'm not talking about people who are evenly matched with me. I've fought mages who can't go 30 secs without tanking for 30+ mins. Even if you get decent hits (220 and 200) they aren't going to die, and then take into consideration you'll also be hitting for 140 a lot, how are they going to die? They are already running or sliding so far away from me after the first hit, it's just a miracle the second one hits, how am I going to hit them with more? It needs to be a 2 shot game, and yes it's mostly been that. I was 2 shotting most people as late as spring 05 (full major wards weren't very common). And before weeping, most people didn't have 360 hp like Monster.

Yes 2 shots happen now, but it will happen so randomly that it doesn't decide who was really more skilled. I can be putting the other guy in position the whole fight, but then after 20 mins I'm the one that gets 2 shot by some freak chance. If 2 shots were considered the norm, fights wouldn't be decided by freak chances. People I used to drop in under a minute, and aren't any better now, shouldn't last that long.

[Jida]

You have to look at the overall picture.

1) Are you balancing 1 vs 1?

2) 3 vs 3?

3) 1 vs 3?

4) 3 vs 1?

If they make it a 2 shot server by default then any 2 people can beat any 1 person if they both land their initial shots.

With the old vitae system maybe this is not a bad thing. One or 2 trash mobs around the LS clears it right up.

Thing is though that characters should not be that vulnerable to dying.

I mean you spend all that time getting stronger and then after all the effort you are no better off than you were at the outpost getting 2 shotted by your peers.

Makes no sense to me.

Right now, when another guy totally out classes me, I die pretty quick.

Their gear, their skill, their level, etc.

When I run into someone like me we have a really long fight and that is fun.

When I run into someone I out class, they die really quickly.

2 level 275's in uber gear in the PK arena is not DT after all :)

[Dread_Og]

I think it would balance everything. The major problem in any fight is that anybody can tank, run off to heal, and then get back in it. If they would just die, fights could be decided in a reasonable amount of time.

I can be fighting a 1v2, or 1v3 against other mages, and the best I can do is get them to tank. Landing 3 consecutive spells is impossible when you have other people to worry about.

I think you should have to fear war spells, and want to avoid them. As it is now, it doesn't matter if you get hit, unless it's a rare crit. I can personally tell you how hard it is for a mage to die. I can easily heal with a kit, get off a quick stam2hp, or fast cast heal 7's. There's no way I'm ever going to have slow enough reaction time to get hit by 3 wars. The only people I die to are extremely fast casters like Rayne, and then it's just because I stay as close as I can even after getting hit.

I haven't even gotten started on what I think about 450 hp melees in full wards...it's even worse trying to kill one of those.

Edit: As for vp, you can burn it fast on the new island if you are a melee, or have a melee helping you. I can also burn it pretty fast solo(15 mins, including buff time), on eaters or olthoi.

[Endrin]

Anouther useless thread here. Damage is preety well balanced across the board as it is right now. More balanced then ever before. PvP is dependant on strategy, levels, skill, equipment and luck. You don't need to be dominant in all of them to win, just most of them. And if you opponent is running away from you, then maybe your just not trying hard enough to catch them. I kill people who run from me and chug/st2hl/jump ect. that are higher level then me all the time.

[Jida]

Yeah the new island makes the new Vit not an issue.

For as you said, melees,... who are not what we are talking about here.

You have to define what a 'reasonable amount of time' is to you.

For me it is when the other person dies 1 vs 1. That is reasonable.

For me when 1 person can't be killed by 3 of his peers on him 100%. That is unreasonable.

On him as hitting and fighting, not dodging and running.

Skill makes up for a lot of this issue, that and having lots and lots of room to make mistakes on these characters now a days.

Raising War damage is not going to help anything other than make the people that played dominate mages for years feel better.

It will also start the power slide going up again.

[DarkCard]

I dont think a 40 minute fight between two equally matched mages is a problem.

Darktide is not "Dueltide" land of the pklite rules. If you hunger for white server pvp, go back to a white server.

PKlite interests should have ZERO bearing here on the PVP forums.

I'm sick of the assumption that i hear from some players that have maxxed everything with full majors crying that it's just too hard to kill someone else that macroes 24 hours a day on one account for salvage and other tradeables, tradebotting 24 hours a day on another account to pay for their maxxed equipment that they use on another acct...

cry?

[SilentGod]

:D SOLUTION!!!!! VIII Spells :D SOLUTION FOR WARRIORS +Health increase that can be layed to armor ONLY useable by Speced in Meele Weapons =P and 250+ =P

[Dread_Og]

A 40 minute fight isn't a problem? Are you kidding me? There's nothing wrong with 2 equally skilled mages being able to decide a fight in 5-10 minutes. I'm sure the 2 mages would rather fight until one was hit twice, instead of indefinitely. And when I say 40 minute fight, that's when both parties get bored and give up.

You're right, this isn't dueltide, it's Darktide. It should be a harsh environment where you can get quickly torn up if you don't have quick reflexes. It shouldn't be a place where anybody can stay alive, because damage isn't up to par with 450 hp, and full wards.

You think I'm trying to balance pklite? Are you an idiot? I doubt you even play on DT, yet you're trying to be some hardass. Damage needs to be increased not just for 1v1's but for group fights as well. 2v2's, 1v2's, 5v5's, all have the same problem, because people can take so much damage without dying.

[meloku]

I dont play AC anymore but back in the day I played on DT and mage fights only took 40 mins when the two mages were both equally matched at fast casting and dodging. It only seems right that a mage should die in 2 hits, look at like this: your fighting a mage you take a hit(you shouldn't in the first place) majority of the time you can do a s2h or m2h before you receive another hit, survive, regen, s2h now it seems ridiculous that someone can take 2 hits and be alive. This isn't World Of Asheron'sCraft or a white server. DT is meant to be a harsh experience where people die a lot if they aren't good.

[ChildoftheKoRn]

A 40 minute fight isn't a problem? Are you kidding me? There's nothing wrong with 2 equally skilled mages being able to decide a fight in 5-10 minutes. I'm sure the 2 mages would rather fight until one was hit twice, instead of indefinitely. And when I say 40 minute fight, that's when both parties get bored and give up.

You're right, this isn't dueltide, it's Darktide. It should be a harsh environment where you can get quickly torn up if you don't have quick reflexes. It shouldn't be a place where anybody can stay alive, because damage isn't up to par with 450 hp, and full wards.

You think I'm trying to balance pklite? Are you an idiot? I doubt you even play on DT, yet you're trying to be some hardass. Damage needs to be increased not just for 1v1's but for group fights as well. 2v2's, 1v2's, 5v5's, all have the same problem, because people can take so much damage without dying.

Thats perfect balance believe it or not. What you're talkign about it making one superior to the other. The only way that you would be ale to balance the way your talking about is making offensive power overwhelming to defensive power (healing, melee/missile defense, magic defense, aegis, wards) in order to completely demolish people w/in 2 minutes. Everyone was complaining fights were too quick at first now people are complaining its too long. If your fight lasts longer than 10 minutes thats not a multiple person fight you actaully met your equal.

[Golden Child]

Don't balance it around a level 98 but do, in fact, provide balance across the board because it would not be balance if that were not so(and no im not saying a level 50 should be able to kill a level 200...)

So your saying your level 98 should be able to kill a level 200..... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

[ChildoftheKoRn]

So your saying your level 98 should be able to kill a level 200..... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

Actaully he has the right idea, but its just not right for this game. Although he could use hollow I believe he just wishes to compete. Just cause somethings balanced doesnt mean its an insta kill. You're getting confused with balance, and overpower. Balance is when 2 people can fight for along time but at equal level, skill, equip can compete for along period of time (well lookie here!!). Overpower is basicaly the lucky 2 cb crits you would get on a sword, but basicaly w/o the cb being required. HE wishes to compete not exactly become victorious against every 200+ that comes around. (If he actaully is lookin to just be vict all those times then i take it back :-P)

[Dread_Og]

If your fight lasts longer than 10 minutes thats not a multiple person fight you actaully met your equal.

I don't understand. How does staying alive for 10 minutes make you equally skilled to the guy you are fighting? You could be getting totally out skilled and not die, because you have full wards and 450 hp. Anybody can stay alive when tanking is the norm.

[MageofCruor]

First I'd like to start off saying that Asheron's Call was and still is the best online game available. However unlike many of the newer games, Asherons call lacks server population.

The main cause of this is turbines inability to do anything right...they often get close, but usually fail to achieve true sucess.

Dread_OG is absolutely correct. As as result of certain key patches the PvP that we all once enjoyed has chanaged quite drastically and is no longer fun. Once a system based on skill with template/items tossed in to help (offered quite less an advantage before then they do now), PvP is now based solely upon template and items.

A 5-10 min fight back in the day was very rare, but when it did happen, it was because the two fighters were VERY evenly matched. Now the same fight would never end. Both fighters easily have enough time to heal up before a 3rd consecutive war hits them (note: 2 would drop them back in the day).

The first situation would annoy anyone right?...But with the way the system is now fights between two very unequal fighters, skill wise, lasts almost an entire buff and often ends with the lesser skilled fighter running off, making the entire situation a complete waste of time.
Fights should not last 40 mins period...Dread_OG is completely correct.

HP gem needs to go...or needs to be given to everyone...I bought the gem myself when TOD first came out and see no problem giving to everyone now. Hasn't near a year of a clear advantage been enough?

Raven Fury is the worst idea turbine ever added to the game...that needs to be taken out completley.

Turbines recent attempt at balancing PvP dmg failed miserably. Instead of all mages we now have all melees...and melees are much worse they having mages running around. Once a melee(s) gets on you, your in alot of trouble. Even when it was all mages running around, if 12 mages jumped one person, he could still get away by simply RUNNING. Melees lock/sticky doesnt give people them same oppurtunity (stamina runs out eventually..spin and spin...doesnt work to good w/ more then one melee on you).

I am going to stop because no turbine rep will ever read this...and the 5 mins I spent typing this is a complete waste of my time.

Goodbye Asheron's Call....(I'll be back when these problems are fixed....these are very few amoungst many that turbine has created)

[DualityDyad]

again everyone here except dread needs to stfu why are these o.Os posting here,, ah well what can u do its a game i guess maybe hope they do something cool, level 8 wars would be nice

[ChildoftheKoRn]

More balanced then ever before. PvP is dependant on strategy, levels, skill, equipment and luck. You don't need to be dominant in all of them to win, just most of them.

Most skill based game ont he market, but turbine is making it otherwise, notice how much work you have ot put into a character in order to amke them worthwhile, how many bags of steel? How many weapons? How manyfailed imbues? Its becoming more item dependant as the game progresses.

[Shao Majii]

Most skill based game ont he market, but turbine is making it otherwise, notice how much work you have ot put into a character in order to amke them worthwhile, how many bags of steel? How many weapons? How manyfailed imbues? Its becoming more item dependant as the game progresses.
I've been saying that for years, asking how this can be called a skill based game when everything is based on equipment and loot, particularly equipment that controls damage amounts.

Now it's worse with the massive xp, health gem... It simply is getting worse as more and more 'things' are added to the game. For example, the cast-on-strike weapons. This is an equipment based solution to a skill based problem.

I fear this will only grow worse, but it bespeaks of destructive doom for PvP, as well as a growing disparity in the current game and the foundations.

The house has proven to be somewhat unstable, built on a slab that needs to be inspected and possibly leveled. Alas, I doubt this will be done.