Comment on the Envoys and the CoC here.

[Ibn]

The Envoys and the CoC. (http://ac.turbinegames.com/index.php?page_id=181)

[Entropathic]

Thanks for the article.

You mention that the existing CoC will be enforced. Does that extend to the contents of the existing Zone CoC, to which we've been subject?

[pokute]

Most of the points were covered, but I was wondering, since I've never taken a UCM test before, and couldn't find the info after a quick search:

1. Is the UCM test automated, or is it administered by an envoy?
2. Are all responses logged? You mentioned that there're short strings/sentences we're supposed to type. What if I make a typo? I mean, I hope I can get an appeal if my response was only a couple characters off, etc.
3. Is UCM test subject selection at random or report based?

That's all I can think of for now.

[Zero_Washu]

Good news in regards to UCM.

HOWEVER.


What about people with multiple accounts. I honestly think you need to BAN all the accounts that have the same BILLING address or same CC. Quite a few UCMs laugh off their bans as they have multiple accounts.


As for "Hate Speech". What a terrible term. Essentially your saying "anything which we don't like today". Hate Speech is a stupid term the left invented to classify any speech that did not agree with their line. It is highly abuseable and used as the last defense of those who cannot put forth a good argument.

In other words just using the term "hate speech" means you don't have a definition.

[KPD157]

Man this has been long time comming I think :) I really appreciate that Turbine and the new Envoys will be making breaking the COC a much more painfull event ;) I like the 3 strikes over all servers rule being banned for 1 year :) I especially love the UCM policy and hope you also make it impossible for IRC Plugins to work and force UCMers into an ACM situation ;)

From a Loyal Fan to the Makers of a Great game like AC,
Thank you Turbine :)

[Shaz]

*claps*

*claps*

*claps*

*claps*

Bravo :) This is long-time coming.

I'll be sure to enjoy reading all the whining threads here on this forum or on the vault...

Shaz

[HeXt]

I'm excited, that rocks, long live AC !!!!!!!!

[Nerice]

"From now on, 3 strikes and you are out. 3 bans for any combination of CoC violations will suspend your account for one year. For particularly abusive behavior, we reserve the right to ban you for a year without 3 strikes. As we will be keeping a database of the number of bans on accounts, if we discover on review any duration of a ban is actually your third, we will re-ban for the year."

Thank you.

[HeXt]

Originally posted by pokute
Most of the points were covered, but I was wondering, since I've never taken a UCM test before, and couldn't find the info after a quick search:

1. Is the UCM test automated, or is it administered by an envoy?
2. Are all responses logged? You mentioned that there're short strings/sentences we're supposed to type. What if I make a typo? I mean, I hope I can get an appeal if my response was only a couple characters off, etc.
3. Is UCM test subject selection at random or report based?

That's all I can think of for now.


I got tested once long ago with a math question... I answered it wrong (partly cuz i was half paying attention and was busy fighting/being my usual smartass self), the admin got the point that was there though (lol i dont even use decal but yeah I got tested too)

Sounds good to me. :)

[Alltu_Tru]

Thank you SO much!!

especially for the name part!! I get SO tired of the ugly names!! (leud, vulgure, hateful names)

[Satisfied]

Just wondering. Is it considered UCm or bannable to have a char in a fellow that is doing nothing but leeching? No healing, attacking, casting, just standing there in a safe spot.


Like if i am dual logged feeding a mule or secondary char xp with main will it get banned if don't alt tab fast enough?



Seen this question asked a few times in the past but never saw an official answer, or i missed it. Thanks.

[Eschient]

"In other words just using the term "hate speech" means you don't have a definition."

How do you figure that? There is a definition of hate speech :

"Bigoted speech attacking or disparaging a social or ethnic group or a member of such a group."

People know it when they see it, we don't need a list of words and terms that aren't acceptable.

And I am *THRILLED* to see the new terms for bans. I'm glad to see Turbine is taking these things seriously instead of more slaps on the wrist.

[TimetoDie_WE]

I think the 3-strike rule is a good rule in theory...

HOWEVER, I do believe that some violations shouldn't be regarded as "strikes" if they are severely minor...

Maybe someone just messed up something... and they say ****, by accident... and there just so happens to be an envoy present and he is banned... I don't feel that it should be that serious an offense to say a "bad" word once...

But, I know that i'm going to watch my language very carefully now..., and not just blurt out a cuss word because something happened =/

[Blight]

Do accounts start out strike free, or will past offenses already be taken into account when this goes into motion?

[TimetoDie_WE]

With the old system, I was slapped so much on the wrist that it started to bleed... with various violations of the CoC including profanity, "hate speech" (was just joking around with the guy and he knew it...), and UCMing...

I know that I won't do any of the above anymore :)

[sylphia]

Overall, I like what I see (for the most part). Its about time we got a CoC with some teeth, and a team with the guts to enforce it. I am all for stricter enforcement, as it is needed to clean up the cess pool we wade through these days. Kudos to Turbine for stepping up to the plate on this one.

Now, I DO have some points I want to bring up:
(1) Three strikes youre out--about time.
(2) There have been a number of posts claiming abusive treatment or harrassing behavior by Admins while administering these tests. While to some extent I understand a no-nonsense approach, admins (now envoys) need to rememebr that we ARE still the customer, and just because someon is being tested for UCM, that doesnt make them guilty of it. They need to be civil and courteous while doing their job. I know its a fine line, but thats the way it is; its bad form to tick off someone who is innocent and end up losing a customer over it. Reports of abusive envoys need to be investigated, and it needs to be made clear to us that it is being done. Names of Envoys under investigation need not be posted; that only encourages ganging up on them and more portentially false reports. But I want it clear that Envoys are now omniscient or immune to disciplinary actions when they are truly out of line.
(3) When testing for UCMs, the Envoys need to remember that the average player is going to be in a state of mild shock, and to say the least, extremely surprised when everything suddenly stops working. It will undoubtedly look to the player like they are experiencing a game freeze, not unlike some of the problems we already experience, and even the fact that an Envoy is talking to them may take a bit of time to register. I used to be a Military Police Officer, and I can tell you from personal experience that the average person slips a gear or two when confronted suddenly with a person of that kind of authority. This needs to be taken into account when administering UCM tests.
(4) ALOT of folks have connection issues; its an ongoing problem here. Regardless of the cause, its a known fact. Just because someone logs out during a UCM test, that doesnt mean they are a UCM set to auto-log; they may have simply lost conn and not even know that there is an Envoy standing there. Logging during a UCM test should NOT be an auto-ban for this very reason. Now, if the player has been tested multiple times in the past for suspicion of UCM or it is not the FIRST time they have logged while being tested, thats another story. I want to see UCMs dealt with severely, but I DONT want to see innocent players banned over a technical problem.
(5) Not everyone is a proficient typer; 30 seconds is incredibly short for someone who is still in a state of semi shock, or who is a slow/bad typer, or who is lagging. Make allowances for that. Just becasue someone is slow in typing doesnt mean they should be banned. A slow response whould not BY ITSELF be a bannable action.
(6) Squelching a player JUST to force the offensive language into open chat is a bad idea. Assuming that the offender DOES go into open chat, you are now subjecting everyone around him to his abuse, rather than just the one target. I understand there are limitaions right now in how you can do things, but please do not leave this as status quo; find alternate methods that DONT require subjecting more ppl to abuse to get something done.
(7) On the naming policy: adopt EQ's policy here. Trademarked names or names of real-life personages are not allowed. It may seem a bit extreme, but it avoids the whole arguement of whether or not Adolph Hitler is an offensive enough name to be banned; it would be against the naming policy because it is the name of a real-life historical figure, effectively rendering any arguement to ALLOW it moot. Funky spelling of names in order to get past this shoudl also be subject to the same rules.


Please understand; I am not trying to pull the teeth out of the COC; I like having a good CoC in place, because it encourages good player interaction in an abuse-free environment. But at the same time, some of it needs to be tempered a bit to prevent punishing the innocents just to be SURE you get the guilty. Overall, a big thumbs up, but please revisit the parts cited :)

[Kachina]

I hope you really do take profanity and vulgar names to task. As for hate speech, I think that is pretty well defined and has no place in the game. Thanks for caring!

Kachina

[Jarella]

I didn't know it was possible to rename a char. How does that work?

[Nerice]

Originally posted by Jarella
I didn't know it was possible to rename a char. How does that work?

I would like to hear an answer to that as well. Is it new tech? Is it something MS would not allow? Was it always possible but never done? (If so why was we told it couldn't be?)

Please dont say the last, even if it is, tell me it was something else instead. I always backed (at least the names I heard of) being deleted. If we was lied to, that will change.

[DarkMarcsun]

I'll pretty much ditto what Sylphia said with one added comment: a 30 second timer only makes sense when you're not playing a game that occasionally lags for 30+ seconds. And forcing someone to YMCA is about the most asinine part of the ucm test. Make me lie down, jump, cower, whatever, but forcing someone to imitate a set of bad 70's rock song dance moves is just asinine.

[Hungwell]

Can i get a free apology token on morningthaw for having my level 58 toon deleted?


Characters over level 20 may be asked to voluntarily rename the character. If you refuse, we have the option of renaming it for you or simply deleting it.


Personally I never found Hung Well to be offensive. I was informed that they "couldnt" rename a toon. As a programmer I knew at the time that was BS and still know it to be BS. This announcement simply confirms it.

[Myk]

Your failure to repeat the string of characters or the short sentence within the time allowed (30 seconds) constitutes a fail of the test. If you pop in at 34 seconds or, for that matter, 1 minute and some spare seconds, it does not change the fact that the time allowed was exceeded.



so someone gets tested and is a bad/slow typer or lags....this part is just horrible idea. There needs to be some tolerance for a short time difference.

[Astral_Dominae]

Originally posted by Zero_Washu
Good news in regards to UCM.

HOWEVER.


What about people with multiple accounts. I honestly think you need to BAN all the accounts that have the same BILLING address or same CC. Quite a few UCMs laugh off their bans as they have multiple accounts.


And often several people play with the same credit card


not everyone has a credit card, especially in countries outside North America






Second Thing:
I agree with the above posters that 30 seconds is a bit too short

#1 some people are slow typers, in the past people were told repeat pretty long obscure messages, for some thats not possible in 30 seconds.

Proposed Solution: The first response in 30 seconds should be something simple, not repeat öäüß#**/, maybe like hi or hello


#2 some places are very hard to survive in and a lot of combat/chat messages scroll by, making it hard to type a response without dying or missing a line from an envoy

Proposed Solution: The char should no longer hear any incoming chat from any players but the envoy. Furthermore he needs to be made invisible to all monsters so they dont (continue to) attack him

#3 Often Players have lag or leave the pc while not fighting.


Proposed Solution: The 30 Second rule should only apply if the char has done another fighting move AFTER the tell of the envoy (i.e. cast a new spell, switched targets etc), that way you can be sure not to target people that left their char unattended for checking their baby/food in the kitchen/etc while they were not fightingm, but were fighting before that attended



In overall I agree with the changes and like them a lot.
But the changes above should be implemented to pevent innocent player harming :)

[Alltu_Tru]

now that it was brought up, I have to agree with the timer of typing... I know several players that type REAL slow (one is my r/l boss and ingame vassel) he uses the "hunt-n-peck" method of typing and because of that, he types very very seldom and when he does, it is very slow

and some of those "strings" are quite irretating even if you can type fairly well!! (example: $A@*?&%! ) something VERY close to that was given in a test, the whole chat log was posted, how long would it take a bad typer to find all those caracters???

I love the rest of it completely!

btw, my boss loves to stand in one place and kill bugs when he is in a mood to get exp (he is sword) but I did his whole setup for AC (I got him hooked) and the only macro that ever hit his computer was a cooking/fletching/alch macro, so someone MIGHT think he was macroing, when in reality, he is just fighting in one spot

[Alltu_Tru]

"#2 some places are very hard to survive in and a lot of combat/chat messages scroll by, making it hard to type a response without dying or missing a line from an envoy

Proposed Solution: The char should no longer hear any incoming chat from any players but the envoy. Furthermore he needs to be made invisible to all monsters so they dont (continue to) attack him"

This is already implemented, read the article about this, the server already suspends the attacks AND the combat messages when you are being tested :) as far as chat from others, I'm not sure they can block that (and even if they could, it should not be SO bad that you cant see their messages)

"#3 Often Players have lag or leave the pc while not fighting.


Proposed Solution: The 30 Second rule should only apply if the char has done another fighting move AFTER the tell of the envoy (i.e. cast a new spell, switched targets etc), that way you can be sure not to target people that left their char unattended for checking their baby/food in the kitchen/etc while they were not fightingm, but were fighting before that attended"

This would be WAY to grey of an area... most people that I have EVER seen, do NOT leave their characters in the middle of monsters unless they have something running that can keep them alive, if you have to leave the computer, get out of the fighting zone ;) safest way for you AND your character ;)

[Askani]

I look forward to seeing some free spots in the dungeons if we can get rid of the UCM's.

Good CoC.

[Blau]

Since you can rename accounts, is this something we can pay for? It would be a nice revenue stream for you and it would allow some of us that are no longer happy with our original names to change them.

[MC33]

Previous lack of CoC enforcement has been a frustrating issue for a large portion of the player base, and in fact has driven a fair amount of your customers away over the last 4 years.

So I am extremely pleased to see this announcement about your committment to enforce the CoC more strictly. Thank you Turbine. :)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not macro (in fact I loathe their effects on the game), but I do wonder if the 30 seconds to respond is a tad too short a time. I believe it takes ~40 seconds to disconnect, so it seems like it's quite possible someone who is not macroing could be in the process of disconnecting right as you administer the UCM test, and fail your test because of a server disconnect.

For that reason, unless Envoys using the UCM test can see when a person is in the process of disconnecting, maybe you should allow 45 or 60 seconds to respond to a UCM test ?

[RedSeptember_WE]

(example: $A@*?&%! )

I just timed myself doing that one & it took 23 seconds, Im not a slow typer either.

Dont get me wrong, Im all for banning the UCMers but admins useing exact rules is no substitute for common scence.

[Drakul]

I used to play UO. At one point they put in permanent stat loss for pks. Guess what after they this that a lot of poeple left and came to AC. Even though that they changed it back now I will never go back. You might be in the same perdicament as UO as it is loseing a lot of players.

[edwar368]

Can we volunteer now for renaming if we know you are gonna slap us :D

[Alltu_Tru]

Drakul, that CoC is a lot LESS strict than most of the other big name MMORPGs. Enforcing a legitamit CoC is a LOT different than putting in a game mechanic that most of the gamers hate. The only ones I see that might hate this CoC enforcment is those that make a habit of breaking it at will ;)

Still a bit worried about that 30 seconds though... will have to warn my vassel about UCM testing methods, he dont read ANY fan boards. He just logs in and plays :D

[AC-Vet]

I agree with this CoC enforcement, however, It has to be administered fairly.....Here are the key points I want to present.

1. This (wR!6~7^) has got to go....most ppl can't type this code out under pressure......plus you don't even know if the () are included or expected in the responce. Alot have no Idea ctr c and ctr v are cut and paste.

2. Not Everyone KNOWS the Emote system....not everyone plays around with spit, laugh, snowangle...ect ect.....you cannot expect ppl to be tested on something that is trivial in the game like this...

3. If someone is clearly at the KB and trying to corrispond back with admin....especially if she/he is unclear what expected to say back....I suggest that Admin's work with the players to extend the test....ask real questions....remember you have young kids here along with none computer savey players that can't respond to current testing as is.

4. I will expect the Admin's have a set by line to go by.....I was tested recently and failed because I freaked out never having been contacted by admin before....I was at the KB the entire time as it unfolded....I recieved 0 responce back from admin when i clearly didn't understand what was going on.....upon my return from 3 day ban.....a clan member was tested by another admin and he didn't understand the "code" expected to say back either however...his admin was cool....he seen that the guy was trying to respond back and helped him get through the test....My Point Being....2 Admin 2 sets of values? the test should of been distributed equally...it really seems that yes while trying to catch CoC Violators,you have to produce a system of testing.....it should never be a witch hunt just to pass out bans....if someone is responding back..then Extended measures have to happen...you cannot just ban ppl because they are not able to comprehend whats asked of them under pressure....think about it....have u ever been stopped by a cop, having no idea why? u know you was doing speed limit...so why did he stop u? u asked your self....then you start freaking out...is my inspection current, is the insurrance in the visor or glovebox, u even reach for your wallet to make sure u didn't leave it at home....then be asked to step out of the car......and you'll be subjected to a alchol test...Breath in is face? OMG does my breath mint still active...See what I'm getting at? Some times you have to allow time for ppl to calm down and get composure before asking them..stuff lol

5. If this kind of testing is going to be aministered by you guys then I will expect banning against these so called self appointed police char's that run around for the soll purpose of reporting umc to be subjected to Ban's for harrassment if the reported char is tested and found to be at keyboard.....I do not have to respond to a single player in this game if I choose not too.....the only one I need to respond to is ++Admin.....To avoid witch hunts by players, I really feel it is necessary to play the ban game both ways....3 wrongful reports gets 3 days off !!!!


A Note to the Flamers out there: I do NOT UMC... Period!!! So take it else were....

I just don't want seeing a person, that is only guilty of Failure to follow Admin's instructions clause or the Catch 22 as I call it...get banned as a UMC because they was either young, slow, old or basically just didn't understand what exactly was expected of him.

[Yusuki]

Originally posted by RedSeptember_WE
(example: $A@*?&%! )

I just timed myself doing that one & it took 23 seconds, Im not a slow typer either.

Dont get me wrong, Im all for banning the UCMers but admins useing exact rules is no substitute for common scence. I just timed myself typing that, and it was less than two seconds.

$A@*?&%!

Drag select. Ctrl+C. Ctrl+V. Four keys hit. *shrug*

Edit: And I conditionally like the enforcement changes; am reserving judgment until I "see" them in action. One thing that wasn't covered: Will there be amnesty for those banned before the new system? If not, why not, and if so... why?

Thanks.

[the-dark-one]

So.. if we've been banned by microsoft in the past for foul language/etc, do we already have strikes against us?

Or clean slate as of the 1st of March?

[AC-Vet]

Yes.... but did you actually get it right?>>>> ( ) <<<<

The point being is that are these () included in responce? If it was Opps.... You Just Got Banned!!! Also not everyone KNOWS ctr c ctr v......for cut and paste.....

I am not Fighting UMC test or Ban's...just the expected responce they expect in this short time frame....no room for errors is there?

[Nerice]

Originally posted by Yusuki
I just timed myself typing that, and it was less than two seconds.

$A@*?&%!

Drag select. Ctrl+C. Ctrl+V. Four keys hit. *shrug*



There are two problems with that (and I am in agreement with thier 30 seconds, its enough time, believe me, I know its enough time), the first being everyone does not know how to copy/paste.

The second, and a point I wanted to bring up but didnt, this is a good time to do so.

I never copy/paste and here is why, and something that needs to be looked into.

Due to still being able to recieve other messages. Admins have been spamming what it is they wanted to be repeated. No complaints about them doing it per se, but its excessive at times. I once was spammed about 8 times in the time it took me to type it out. I can type pretty darn fast, and I dont care about the #$%# either. It was a simple word, I could had typed it in less than a second, but my first thought was to copy paste, but due to spam, I couldnt. I then typed it out, this was all in a total of around 3 seconds. After trying and failing to copy/paste due to the spam.

Send it more than once, but do not be excesive about it, we do have 30 seconds after all, if you miss the first one, and its repeated 3-5 seconds later, you still have time.

Trust me, you can do ALOT in 30 seconds.

[Alltu_Tru]

yus, I had to show my boss how to Ctrl-v/Ctrl-c... he has had a computer for 6 yrs or better, but is VERY comp illit, he may not even remember how to do it anymore!

that string would have got him banned

I've been anti UCM every since it became so prevalent, but people that have problems typing, or dont know how to copy/paste are NOT gonna pass that.

EDIT: you can ONLY do a lot in 30 seconds IF you know the keyboard very well and can type fairly well... if you still hunt-n-peck, your are GONE with one of those strange strings of characters (words, yes, he can type fast enough for a word in 30 seconds... but to have to look down at keyboard, find the character, hit it, look at screen for next character... and so on... a slow typer that dont know the keyboard very well is sunk)

[Katahdin]

Renaming is new tech.
Thus the 'I'll keep you posted' section and the 'don't panic' section.

I've been watching lots of these UCM tests. 30 seconds is plenty of time. Limbo supresses combat messages. See my explanation in the body of the original message.

Perma Bans from MS. I will review them if they are appealed, however it's been my experience that they were fair. Read that to mean no promises.

Past bans WILL be considered when counting 'strikes'.

Yes, we will be enforcing MS terms of service and Zone rules while we are still using their Zone for login.

[Nerice]

Originally posted by Katahdin
Past bans WILL be considered when counting 'strikes'.

I am not worried about it myself, but do you realize there has been quite a few people banned for cussing and such more than 3 times?

Asking for them, do they have to worry about a 1 year vacation come March the 1st?

[Katahdin]

Originally posted by pokute
Most of the points were covered, but I was wondering, since I've never taken a UCM test before, and couldn't find the info after a quick search:

1. Is the UCM test automated, or is it administered by an envoy?
2. Are all responses logged? You mentioned that there're short strings/sentences we're supposed to type. What if I make a typo? I mean, I hope I can get an appeal if my response was only a couple characters off, etc.
3. Is UCM test subject selection at random or report based?

That's all I can think of for now.

1. No - it is not automated, there is an Envoy administering the check.

2. Yes all responses are logged. If it's one letter or two letters off, the rest of the test is taken into consideration. Pass the rest of it with flying colors and most likely you are off the hook.

3. Both.

[pokute]

I think that the test content itself should neither be concrete nor standardized, since that will only help UCM programmers to get around the test.

But there should definitely be a period before the test, after the player is placed into the limbo, where the envoy member clearly conveys the idea that the player is about to be tested, and should take time to explain what is involved to calm their nerves. It might even be useful to ask what country the player is playing from, what is the local time, and how old the player is (dunno if it is legal to ask personal info like this). An example of where this might be useful, let's say some 12 year old kid from Australia's been bashing olthoi from 12-5AM... he's not going to know his nose from his forehead at that point, and will probably spend the first ten seconds kicking his computer before he'll even look down to the chat box.

It shouldn't take long to do this, and it will drastically increase the accuracy of the test. Anyone who's involved in AI programming can tell you that the ability to emulate a human being plummets with each successive social interaction.

[Jet-eye-nite]

Is there a way the Envoys can determine if the player is lagging ,making the 30 second hard if not impossible to complete ? I am all for what you are doing but, just wondered if this had been thought of ? Edit Add Maybe the player could be portalled out to a test area and have test explained , I like the who are you how old are you what country are you from type questions as appossed to 4*23\.8 is < or > than 29 T or F or the ctrlc crtl v type stuff just an idea (another edit ) how about portal out to an area ask them to run up the stairs trip the lever open the door go inside open the chest pick up the item in the chest and bring back to the envoy .How could someone probrams all that in a macro ? just another idea :D

[Bosscat]

While all is said and done, all the fluff on Macro UCM Tests on DT just makes it a mess. Over half of the fun is the ability to "detect" and kill macros. Really, it is. That and defend macros of those that do that for those that are friends. Gotta love it, entering a place and catching a Macro that is too dumb to survive. Xp ain't for spit, but the DI's now, you can really hit the Lotto there, treasure better than Sing Loot. All this will do is lessen the hunting targets available to the general population..... I'm gonna really, really, really miss that aspect of DT existence.

[the-dark-one]

Originally posted by Katahdin
Renaming is new tech.
Thus the 'I'll keep you posted' section and the 'don't panic' section.

I've been watching lots of these UCM tests. 30 seconds is plenty of time. Limbo supresses combat messages. See my explanation in the body of the original message.

Perma Bans from MS. I will review them if they are appealed, however it's been my experience that they were fair. Read that to mean no promises.

Past bans WILL be considered when counting 'strikes'.

Yes, we will be enforcing MS terms of service and Zone rules while we are still using their Zone for login.


Um.. and if we have 3 bans for some-such thing already? I guess I won't be logging in then anymore, might as well unsub if i'm gonna be out for a year as of the 1st.

[SoulForge]

gooood bye macro. gooood bye macro. gooood bye macro; hope u burn in hehehehehehe.

good job boys and girls of turbine, hit em hard!

[Havo]

Fine by me so long as we are a little forgiving on the 30 second rule.

I do hope the language will be controled. I am tired of coming into AB only to hear some 12 year old PK swearing about being killed.

[Compelled_mind]

I have been banned more then three times before, for swearing etc, will i have to worry about not being able to play for a year?

[the-dark-one]

from what she said, thats what it looks like..

[Compelled_mind]

thats really,really lame. If the answer is yes then i guess ill be finding a new hobby :(

[Korvus]

I interpret what Katahdin has said along the lines of: if you get reported and caught again for doing something stupid they will check to see what other punishments you didn't exactly learn from and if that value is 2 or more you'd be toast.

Checking the previous punishments would require you to attract attention to yourself again. I'd say its perfectly fine for anyone with a 'record' to log on and play as usual… minus the resurgence of past unnecessary foolishness. If you get caught and it is deemed you deserve another punishing act consider it hard (or 'well' depending on perspective) earned.

[Compelled_mind]

ok, so if your right then i would have no problem because i keep my mouth closed now ;)

[the-dark-one]

i'd really like to hear her answer..

This is a pretty big IF ...

[Compelled_mind]

me too. hoping i can know tonight so i can cancel if needed :eek:

[the-dark-one]

honestly, it took her all of 10 minutes to respond the first time, whats up with the 30 minute delay on the more.. shall we say, pertinent matter?

[Grayson]

:D :D :D :D

AC's just getting better and better guys. Keep it up! :)

[Skat_]

In my View, UCM and every Buff bot/Market Bot is the same

But for different reasons,
UCM = XP
Buff bot = Plats/notes
Market bot = lets the player sell without being at the computer

Each one is doing something for not being at the computer
I think there should be No BUff bots or Market bots if Turbine is going to be so Mean towards UCM, why stop there ban them all.

Skat

[Ghent]

Macro banning on Darktide is not warranted. There are three key reasons:

1) We can handle macros ourselves. Even if there are pk-detection loggers in use then, well, they are logged. No problem with areas being hogged by absent players.

2) Ever since towns were nerfed and mansions came into being, the only things worth fighting for are leveling spots. Right now, macros are the only thing in the game worth defending and attacking. Why take them away?

3) In essence, macro enforcement on Darktide is a tool of grief players who do not want to engage in what DT is all about: fighting one another. By saying you will ban macroers, you have given your players the power to step outside the world of Darktide and use company employees to do their dirty work for them.

By its very nature, Darktide has different rules than every other server. Reasonable exceptions to the CoC to recognize those differences is the mark of flexibility and reason.

[sylphia]

Kat,
(1) YOU may be comfortable with 30 seconds, but I am concerned with the player who is being tested, who is justifiably nervous (whether guilty or innocent), who may have problems typing, or may have a language barrier, or may be suffering lag or connection issues. There are folks in my clan who use some ACM features due to handicaps; they physically could NOT respond within 30 seconds, but the repetetive actions of the ACM would lead other players to report them for UCM. Failing the timer by itself should NOT be bannable. Anyone can goof on any portion of whatever test you administer. Simply put, when put on the spot, people choke; it happens. Some degree of common sense needs to be applied when administering these tests. I rememebr a posted chat log where a player was being tested by an Admin for UCM. The player was being obnoxious, but it was quite clear form their responses that hey WERE at the keyboard and interpreting the Admin's tells. While they were technincally in violation of not confomring to the Admin's requirements, they were OBVIOUSLY not UCMing, which was supposedly the reason for the Admin being there in the first place. The Admin should have been customer oriented enough to use a little common sense and judge that the player was not UCMing. I got the impression from the log that the Admin (whom I shall not name but I bet most posters can guesss) has a chip on his shoulder. The player shoudl have received some form of discipline for being obnoxious, but he was banned specifically for UCM, which he was obviously not doing.
(2) Folks who have been banned multiple times prior to this new policy of 3-strikes look like they will be perma-banned as soon as this goes into effect, judging by the way the article is worded. While I agree that these types of folks tend to be the ones we dont want in game, under the old system, they were punished accordingly and allowed to try again. It would be drastically unfair to suddenly tell thenm to hit the road with a retroactively punitive policy; this would be equivalent to baning ppl who were macroing when it WASNT against the CoC. Their strikes should remain on their record, but they shoudl not be perma banned until their own actions warrant another ban from THIS point forward. I want to see our game cleaned up but I want to see it done fairly. If somoen has cleaned up their act, they are welcome here; if they show through their own further actions that they are going to continue to be disruptive, knowing the full penalties of their actions from now on, then good ridance. But dont perma ban folks who are already at the limit when the new policy hits; it simply isnt fair.

[Lilkinsly]

Excellent

[Toxeus]

Hit the macros hard and keep the pressure on until it disappears from AC!!

However, I am a bit concerned what my reaction will be if I'm ever tested. I will probably draw a ban for being a smart-aleck, since it would be a big joke to me after all of these years of having to put up with the bots...

I'm all for actual human interaction, rather than Ctrl-V cut and paste nonsense. Hell, isn't that sort of thing easily programmed into a macro anyway?? I know you can't program a macro to carry on a reasonable, 30 second conversation that makes a darn bit of sense.

+Envoy: "Hello Toxeus"
Toxeus: "Hello +Provincetown" ;)
+Envoy: "How are you tonight?"
Toxeus: "I'm fine, thanks for asking."
+Envoy: "How many members in your allegiance?"
Toxeus: "One sec, let me check..."
Toxeus: "692"
+Envoy: "And what time is it where you are playing?"
Toxeus: "11:25pm ET"
+Envoy: "What type of armor are you wearing and what color is it?"
Toxeus: "It's Blue Amuli, but not as snazzy as that outfit you have on."
etc., etc.

Find me a bot that can interact in a normal "human" way such as this and an +Envoy who treats you with respect rather than some goofy request to *YMCA* or Cut and Paste a nonsense string of characters...

Oh, and bring my portable loot back! I only play two hours a day and don't want to waste 1/4 of that running to sell garbage so I can buy more mana charges...

[satansmurf]

"30 seconds"

More than enough.

Count it out. Dang long time.

If you can press 35 buttons and mouse clicks a minute to hunt, you can hit "justa sec" in 30 seconds. You can probably even say it in Spanish.

And if you aren't hitting buttons (ala macro) you got nobody to complain to but yourself. Attended or not.

Best ban I saw was someone who I think was trying to fight through El Tank to type something. Incomprehensible ",,,,i,,,,sa,," (Might have been an older macro. I haven't used any of em, so I dunno :D )

[MissMae]

have more and more faith in the health of the future of this game.

Good for you guys. Thanks for caring enough to do the right things. :)


I can't wait to start some of my friends up on the new server and show them how awesome this game truely is. Maybe by the time that happens, half of the losers that plan to try and mess up the new server will be banned by then.

You have a tough job. I appreciate everything you are doing.

[Defiance]

"For now, characters that are under level 20 will be asked to delete the character. If you refuse, you will be banned across all servers and it will count as a strike. Characters over level 20 may be asked to voluntarily rename the character. If you refuse, we have the option of renaming it for you or simply deleting it."

Does "For now" mean you can do this now? Or does it mean thats the plan for the future.

[sylphia]

Defiance:

Originally posted by Katahdin
Renaming is new tech.
Thus the 'I'll keep you posted' section and the 'don't panic' section.

[Compelled_mind]

id really like to know if im going to get banned for a year :(

[-Arlyn-]

Guess I'd better upgrade my computer and find better arthritis meds, just in case I get tested in error. :)

Kudos otherwise, about time.

[Ariella]

Kudos!

I'm glad to see this games gonna be cleaned up! :)

[deryk]

The first time i got a ucm test i was so damn confused with all the ropes i had to jump there was no way i would have been able to do it in 30 seconds. Not everyone is an adult that plays this game and not everyone has experience on the ropes they have to jump when they get a test to pass it in 30 seconds.

[Davidge]

Bravo!

I like that you have finally clarified how you will test, and dispelled all the misinformation that has been floating around lately about the UCM tests.

[TbOnE]

Hello sending you a PM cuz i didnt expect this to be read on the thread after it hit 3 pages.

I lag allot! The problem with my DIalup ISP is the shortage of upload bandwidth. As a result when i start lagging som,etimes i dont know about it till i time out from server as the link also remains green.

Here is what happens when i lag. My main is archer and i always hunt with "Repeat Attack" and "Auto target" boxes checked. if i am not chatting or moving i dont know that i began lagging cuz i can see whtever ppl are doing around me myu archer keeps shooting arrows automatically. i only know when i try to run or message in chat. when the typed message does not display at all. if i dont find out in time then i lag out of AC in 2 to 3 mins (Guessing).

if i find out in time, i alt tab right click on AC and close it beofre it freezes the PC for several minutes. disconnect from ISP and reconnect.

I am sure there are others like me who have similar lag issues. My request is that you re-evaluate the l30 second window that you heave kept for UCMers. I dont UCM but i lag allot and thats why i die allot in sticky suituations. If you guys have a log on Characters then you can check mine. You wioll find that i disconnect and reconnect from AC from 3 to 15 times in an hour. Takes allot of devotion to connect minute after minute.

As if lag death was not enough! LAG BAN would really disappoint me!

btw Final Fantasy xi runs amazingly on the same connect .. this happens only in AC! packet loss remains high and i lag allot on the same dial up.

Thanks for your patience and reading.

Tbone - HG

[Xenlock]

How about.

You just revise the UCM thing all together.
Stop changing the game in Mid-Stream, and start putting in better content: more dungeons, more xp places, UCM Only dungeons, etc etc.

Better Quests...

Seriously, I'm sure alot of you UCM'd too.
Hypocrisy runs the system anymore.

The more you try to change, the more you hurt.

Go ahead, start baning accounts.

World of Warcraft is going to own you.

Then we'll start to see the people who FUND this game: the ones WITH multiple accounts: branch out, and leave this all behind.

Good luck scrapping bottom.

Microsoft was better ;)

[Oldin]

Way to show you are an UCM and are pissed something is being done about it :x

[Jack Sparrow]

If you log out during a UCM test, you will be banned.

I realise the importance of this...however, i'm on dialup and I frequently get dropped. =S I've been screwed over on quests like Gman by that for ages. Currently Dial-up is hte only thing available to me to connect to the internet.

That particular clause HAS to be more flexible or subject to fast appeal or something. I'm seeing this game become more and more dial-up unfriendly as these changes happen. THAT has to stop!

[bobjava]

What would be wrong with a UCM dungeon?

Seems like a more painless way to handle this.

One place to do it, so no one is bothered.

[Mat Icefalcon]

30 seconds??? May need a little more. What happens to a person who's using dial up modem and they start to yellow and then red link??? I know when i was in japan this happened alot and at very inconvienent times (my death count would be so much lower if this was the case).

[Korrigan]

Point a) of the UCM part is very important. I was so many macroers complain about how unfair the test is because they were still getting damage from combat, thanks for clearly writing that this is not possible :)

Point g) is very important too. One guy got his two accounts banned in a Holding fellow a while ago on HG for this.

I like the offensive names part very much too !

Just one question, Ibn, does offensive/racist/insults in private tells count too ? Like you kill someone in PKLite and he floods you with childish /tell insults, can you also report him ?

Thanks for this anyway, apparently the CoC will now really be enforced ! You GO, Turbine Guys !!!

[Balthazar]

Originally posted by Nerice
I would like to hear an answer to that as well. Is it new tech? Is it something MS would not allow? Was it always possible but never done? (If so why was we told it couldn't be?)

Please dont say the last, even if it is, tell me it was something else instead. I always backed (at least the names I heard of) being deleted. If we was lied to, that will change.

Probably connected to about two patches ago, they changed some code that allows name changes. This change's effect on the customer was to make a the items that are weild or activation by player name only (ivoried items, imbued simulacra items, etc.) work only with the original character, not with a character of the same name.
If you have ever inscribed an item, then deleted the character that inscribed it, and recreated the same character, with the same name, befor you could change the inscription, now you can't. The underlying names system was changed, so instead of the items being tied to a specific name, they are tied to the character's id number.
This enabled Turbine to easily change names now, and not "break" all those other items.

[rschroe]

I have a question about the Envoy test for UCM. I have a 9 year old daughter that plays. From what i have read there is no way she will be able to answer your questions in 30 seconds. And she can't type well at all.
She is an archer and she does at times stand in corners to fight. She only talks to people in our allegiance for reasons you should know.
I also know i have an 11yr old that is in my allegiance too, and i have met people that have their children as young as 8 playing this game. Is there going to be some exceptions to this or are you going to find out info about the person you are testing before you give the test.
From reading your article it sounds like u will be conducting your own UCM checks whether people are turned in or not. I would like to know what to do about my daughters play of this game.

I know i have been approached by Admins 3 times for various reasons. The first time i didn't even realize it until he had written me 3 times before i noticed that someone was talking to me.

I know that if my guy quit fighting i would be pissed at first because this happens all too many times as it is. I don't think my first thought would be to look at the screen and see if someone was talking to me. I would be to worried about fixing the problem so i don't die. I agree with most the other posters 30sec is not enough time.

Also will the envoy actually be in person in front of us when the test is conducted?

[Red Syke]

Mages – if you are vulning for another player, your character is subject to UCM tests too.

excuse me?

does this mean every mage is essentially subject to UCM tests? every patron who goes and tries to powerlevel a vassal (or even help the lowly vassal lose vitae) is subject to UCM tests?

I thought the whole goal of all the game changes to date was to encourage more quality time with your vassals. . . .

and a mage or life trained char can't vuln for a friend w/o wondering if the UCM police will come knocking on the screen? that's convenient.

you really are trying to villify us all, aren't you?

make everyone a criminal then you have us where you want us?

nooo that's not right. I forget, this is Turbine. you know better than we do what is fun in a game. and if I'm not playing the game YOUR way I must be playing wrong.

fear not , brave Turbine. I may make this a whole lot easier for both of us. I may simply choose not to play your game.

you've given me alot to think about . . . I hope I've done the same for you.

Red Syke

[Korrigan]

Don't blame Turbine on the harsh anti UCM policy, but blame the ones who still try to UCM even if it's forbidden ... blame the criminal, not the policeman ;)

[Meri]

<shrug>

Should have been done long ago...

But I'm not holding my breath for any "great awakening" either.

[KirillHuntersun]

I know it's been mentioned here, but I haven't seen comment on it from either Ibn or Katahdin yet, so I'll post it up.

Please, please, PLEASE by all that you may hold Holy, PLEASE define both "profanity" and "Hate speech" better than it currently is. Preferably, do so actually WITHIN the CoC.

This seems like a minor issue, but it isn't. It's HUGE. Defining it as "speech, in open chat, that offends another player" is simply too wide an option. I have one friend who will actually scream at someone for saying "Jesus Christ", "Jesus", or "Oh my God" because to them, it's profanity to "take the Lord's name in vain". Given that I am of a faith that is not Judeo-Christian in basis, I would obviously not feel the same. However, I'd be glad to, if so informed by an individual, refrain from using those phrases in chat near them, but it is utterly ridiculous to ban someone for it, and nearly as ridiculous to have an Envoy's time wasted by investigating the matter.

Similarly, I know several people who would find the statement "I think President Bush is right about Gay Marriage" to be hate speech. It is most certainly NOT hate speech, but these individuals can easily make it out to seem that way.

So please, I beg of you, give us a guideline here of what is and is not acceptable, above and beyond "profanity and hate speech". Even if it's limited to "By profanity, we mean 'don't say anything that would get beeped out on prime time television" and "By hate speech, we mean derogatory comments of a racial, religious, gender, or gender-preference(gay and lesbian) nature".

I'm well aware that you're not looking to become the AC equivalent of the Mental Hygiene Police or some such nonsense, but even though this is a game and it should be kept clean and polite, a system where any person who happens to get offended over common usage of language can get the person who said it banned is a bit much.

[KirillHuntersun]

Originally posted by Red Syke
excuse me?

does this mean every mage is essentially subject to UCM tests? every patron who goes and tries to powerlevel a vassal (or even help the lowly vassal lose vitae) is subject to UCM tests?

I thought the whole goal of all the game changes to date was to encourage more quality time with your vassals. . . .

and a mage or life trained char can't vuln for a friend w/o wondering if the UCM police will come knocking on the screen? that's convenient.

you really are trying to villify us all, aren't you?

make everyone a criminal then you have us where you want us?

Red Syke

News Flash, Red Syke.

Not only is that patron who's helping his vassal powerlevel or burn vitae subject to UCM testing, SO IS THE VASSAL.

ANY character engaged in combat at ANY time in ANY place is subject to UCM testing. The ONLY thing that that statement is saying is, you can't have a mage toon following you around vulning for you via a macro and expect that mage toon to be exempt from UCM checks. Casting any spell on a monster that will cause it to try and attack the caster is considered combat macroing.

This was clearly stated multiple times in the past. The difference is, there's going to be a LOT more UCM checks because Turbine's got a lot more people for Envoy duty than MS ever put on Admin work.

[MissMae]

Why to people keep thinking they can get around it?

Yes.. any mage vulning (power leveling) is cheating if it is UCM. This new Envoy system looks Awesome. I hope they stick the their guns.

3 strikes and your out.. yeeeeeha.

[Mildly amused]

Looks good on paper. We will see if it makes a difference in game.

[Ashikaga]

I think banning UCM's is getting like a witch hunt...

- If you refuse the UCM test, or fail any section, you will be banned.
- If you log out during a UCM test, you will be banned.

Most companies would say "you may be banned". They would allow for situations where players would be unable to respond through no fault of their own.

I think 30 seconds is too little time to guarantee a response from people sitting at the keyboard. I know (as a player from New Zealand) that I am often lagged out well beyond 30 seconds and also disconnected without warning.

If people are truly UCM then you don't need to impose short response times to catch them.

If your aim is to be able to catch ALL macroers then you will probably catch quite a few innocent people too. I am hoping thats not an acceptable outcome.

[Veest_LC]

Originally posted by Alltu_Tru
and some of those "strings" are quite irretating even if you can type fairly well!! (example: $A@*?&%! ) something VERY close to that was given in a test, the whole chat log was posted, how long would it take a bad typer to find all those caracters???



Try reading and typing that after an evening in the pub!! How great is the urge to log into AC when U are fuelled with alcohol? You think you are invincible and when u get to your character the next day you think OH MY GOSH, where did that vitae come from...

Idea behind UCM check is sound, however we are HUMAN, not MACHINES

[Yinchi]

Ibn, how do you voluntarily get a name change? I have one on my account that my nephew made while he stayed with me, I would like to get rid of it without deleting that character (a level 50). I was unaware of what he named it til too late. :(

Is there someone we can contact and voluntarily have our names changed if we feel they may be offensive to others?

[Zalliun]

Originally posted by MissMae
Why to people keep thinking they can get around it?



because its possible to get around it just get a little harder everytime.

[Zalliun]

So if this is the CoC

and taking people items when "tinkering" ?

and dragkilling them ?

nice cleanup Turbine once again you listened to the vocal crowd and stopped thinking about the new people that are in the game and will possible join


btw you forgot your stand on account transfer and ebaying ?

[Katahdin]

Originally posted by the-dark-one
honestly, it took her all of 10 minutes to respond the first time, whats up with the 30 minute delay on the more.. shall we say, pertinent matter?

Meaning I went to sleep.

As to your question, past history will be considered when looking at current issues. If you have 14 bans in the past for swearing, and I ban you for swearing tuesday, I'll have to take a look at those 14 old ones and make a determination at that time.

[Red Syke]

KirillHuntersun,

if they had said it THIS way I would not have misunderstood.

Mages - if you are vulning as a macro for another player, your character is subject to UCM tests too.

and as long as I'm clearing up odd comments,

Casting any spell on a monster that will cause it to try and attack the caster is considered combat macroing.

no. that's inaccurate.

Casting any spell on a monster that will cause it to try and attack the caster

that's simply combat.

a macro is a little program people run to to simplify tedious tasks .

I didn't like the wording in the sentence from turbine that I quoted. It seemed to imply that ALL mages are assumed guilty til proven innocent. guilty by virtue of casting a simple vuln for some other char. I NOW realize that there are little macroes that people can run to vuln monsters FOR them .. but I didn't realize that at the time that I posted.

I also think Ashikaga's post hits things right on.

and I hope that banning innocent people for UCM when they simply are slow typers, don't understand english well, or have connection problems is unacceptable to Turbine also.

Red Syke

[Eruditus]

"Offensive names – We are looking into this and as soon as I have more information about how we will proceed, I’ll let you know. For now, characters that are under level 20 will be asked to delete the character. If you refuse, you will be banned across all servers and it will count as a strike. Characters over level 20 may be asked to voluntarily rename the character. If you refuse, we have the option of renaming it for you or simply deleting it."

Thank you, for far too long this element of the CoC has been entirely ignored which has lead to the current situation where certain types of player have aimed to make their names as offensive as possible... often making ridiculous claims about how its all about perception.

On a personal note I feel it would be good for the game if this also appiled to idiotic names such as 'Hello My Name is <ins name>' or 'M A K E O F C A R', on no terms is AC a roleplaying game for the majority of the populace but we could make a token effort to prevent a naming characters in a manner more suited to counterstrike.

A less strict version of everquests naming policys would be great, oh and to address the theives problem I would suggest a webpage which listed the names of the characters whos names have been changed and what they were changed to.

Thanks Again

Eruditus
Member of the 'Walkers of Legend' on Leafcull.

[sylphia]

Name-changing thieves is fairly easy to deal with. If the player requests a name change, and it is granted for any reason OTHER THAN being offensive, have the old name show up for a minimum of 3 months at the bottom of the ID panel.

So if a player who is "roleplaying a thief" (cough BS cough) has his name changed to enable him to continue to ply his trade, he will still be marked for at least 3 months. If a legitimate player just wants their name changed, it will also show up for at least 3 months. If someone's name is changed because it wasoffensive, it will not show up; having it show up would defeat the point of changing it in the first place.

[AC_Addict]

I applaud your moves, Turbine. Feels like someone out there actually cares about the game again.

I have a suggestion related to name changes. Have a command that will give the toons prior name.

In conjunction with this, add a once in a toon's lifetime "name change quest." There are many of us that made a choice at 2am one night that we're now stuck with 100 levels later.

[Karem Darsun]

Good move guys.

The best thing about it is that unlike MS policy, everything is in the open now. Just gotta hope that its is enforced, and that there are enough envoys to make it consistant.

A note about the UCM tests. I agree that you may have to put a little leeway in the Type a string part. I just looked at the number of errors i put into the above paragraph. I could easily hit the 30 sec limit (never had to, this is guesswork), but i probably would get it wrong.

And like a lot of people, i've got lazy and forgotten most of the control codes through disuse, so i wouldnt even think to use control c/v in this situation.

[kryptik]

Are we all starting over on a clean slate?

[Ziggy al-Zog Jr]

Well done, bring on the envoys!!! Now here is a change Turbine is making that I can fully support :)

[Avaton]

Originally posted by Zero_Washu
What about people with multiple accounts. I honestly think you need to BAN all the accounts that have the same BILLING address or same CC. Quite a few UCMs laugh off their bans as they have multiple accounts.

I've never been banned for any reason. The closest I ever came to being temp banned was when the server crashed in the Residential Quarters and resulted in my best suit of fully tinked plate getting "eaten". +Admin Bane was not interested in helping and I was LIVID! He didn't ban me although looking back I probably would have if I had been in his place. I play by the rules as I expect everyone around me to do as well. However, I have three accounts (mine, wife's, and stepson's) all on the same CC and to suggest that two of them be banned for this reason is a tad... well... insane.

[Kaluna]

I have never been banned, never macroed and don't swear (in game). I am glad that the CoC is going to be enforced. But I am kinda scared of being tested. I don't use the chat emotes, so I don't know how to YMCA or make a snowangel. And that contol c/control v stuff, do you hit the keys simultaneously?

I'd prefer a simple civil conversation. How are you this evening? What do you do when you're not playing AC? Is it snowing where you are?

A simple conversation would be plenty to prove that I am a person playing this game and not a UCM bot.

[Boddhisatva]

rschroe said "I have a question about the Envoy test for UCM. I have a 9 year old daughter that plays. From what i have read there is no way she will be able to answer your questions in 30 seconds. And she can't type well at all."

Not to be harsh but AC is not your baby-sitter. The game is rated Teen... says so right there on the box. In fact, I think the Zone ToS even states 13 somewhere, but I could be wrong.

Now, I know that a lot of kids do like to play this game. Some are also more advanced than others so just their physical age isn't always a good gage on whether or not a kid should play this game.

I sometimes fellow with a friend's 11 year old son who only ever plays supervised. I take him out hunting (or more often than not just running around my mansion). If for some reason he were to be UCM tested, I know his folks are right there to help him out. If you are not on hand to help your daughter out in such a situation then I will feel no sympathy for you when the account is banned.

Btw, considering the vile filth that spews from so many of the players in this game I would think that a responsible parent wouldn't let their child play any MMOG unattended.

[Chipsky]

How does the name change affect ownership of a villa/cottage? I have a character who's name I would like to change, but he is a villa owner.

I made a mistake (its offensive) in naming a long time ago (December of '01) and would like to correct this... The character is 112.

Please advise.

[Roadkill]

I have to agree with what others have mentioned before me.

I think the 30 seconds is not long enough.

1. I have poor circulation and my hands get cold easily. When my fingers get cold, I lose some dexterity and cannot type as fast. Also, there are those who cannot type fast anyways.

2. I am not a computer noob, I have been using computers for well over a decade..and I just recently found out about the ctrl-c & ctrl-v thing.

3. With the lag issues we currently have, that alone at times would get me banned. There are times when lag freezes me for well over 30 seconds, even a couple occasions over a minute. I was upset once and actually timed it. Imagine how it would feel to have the frustration of the lag to start with, then to come back from the lag to be banned on top of it.

another concern is that i don't play around with the emotes...if an envoy asked me to do something, I might not know how to do the requested action.

even if the test is casual conversation, there are times when I've had a bad day at work and do not feel like talking to anyone. If it is not made clear that it is an envoy talking to me and it is a test, I might simply ignore the requests to say or do something.

I can say one thing...on the off chance that a person gets unjustly banned 3 times and is banned for a year, do you at Turbine actually believe that in a year's time, with so many new games in the works, that the person will not have found another game to play? I have browsed through the posts up to this point and I have seen some very good points that show how proposed CoC enforcement can cause additional problems rather than solve current ones.

I do not nor have I ever UCM'd. I am strongly against it. In fact, I myself have even reported someone for doing it.

But this would not be justice. I do not pretend to have all the answers...I do not. There are parts of this enforcement that are gross over-reactions. I implore the people at Turbine to consider the concerns of the players and work to find a better solution.

edit: I have been looking forward to the release of Turbine and Atari's release of Dungeons & Dragons MMORPG. But if this is what I can expect in that game as well, I am having second thoughts.

[Midnight]

I've said it elsewhere, but I'll repeat it here.

The game will be just like Diablo2 until you find a way to prevent violators from buying a new CD key.

Of course, if you want to sell lots of copies of the game, just make sure your most committed fans are habitual cheaters. (hmm, nevermind, you've already achieved that goal).

[KitEKat2]

I am so glad that Turbine will be taking stronger measures to enforce the CoC. But, it needs to be enforced with common sense, respect, discretion, and compassion for all of the players. Some players don't type well or fast, some players can't read well when the chat is really scrolling. Everyone has trouble keeping up with the chat in a high traffic area, not to mention a moderately busy area. I have a 7 year old nephew who loves AC. When he is playing with us at our house, we keep a close eye on him; but we cannot monitor his actions when he is at his home. We have had talks about getting in the way of pkl's, attacking their back while in combat with another pkl, about doing things to be banned from AC, etc. He doesn't violate the CoC, but he can be annoying. Young children are fascinated by AC, and it wouldn't hurt everyone to be a bit more compassionate and think a bit before they respond to something. It will keep a lot more people out of trouble and make the game more enjoyable for us all.

When I have 2 chars in a fellow to help 1 with xp, I put one in a safe place, with toe tapping. Occasionally, I will switch their places when one can kill a monster better than the other. For example, I put the mage on top of a building in Ayan while the archer hunts below. I might put the mage inside the first walled fort at the drunken madman, while the archer is on top killing. This does not seem to me to be UCMing because only 1 char is fighting, and monsters can't get to the 2nd char to hurt them.

[Draloch]

Good news , this sure looks promising.

Bravo Turbine!



TSA.

[Asper]

AC isn't a game for young children or drunks. It doesn't claim to be. If rule-enforcement poses undue challenges for the very young, or for the sobriety-challenged, caveat emptor.

[Grrr the Mad]

I've been playing AC since dec '99. In all that time I've never UCM'd, ACM'd, Macroed, or chained. I think in all that time I may have used plugins for a total of 2 weeks. 6th sense a bit, treestats, BS/2.

I applaud your efforts to put an end to UCM'ing, but unless you've got reason to believe I'm ucming then leave me alone and let me play.

I don't plan to take the test just because I'm camping in holding, a known place for UCM's. I don't care how quick or easy the test is it's wrong to paint everyone with the same brush.

I guess if refusing to sumbit gets me banned, I should just quit now.

Grrr

[Compelled_mind]

eh, what if i have like, over 14 though?

[Greymane]

Maybe someone just messed up something... and they say ****, by accident...

How do you type profanity by accident?

Excellent news on the COC enforcement, especially the vulgar names.

Now, if we could just get rid of the STUPID names :).

-Grey

[pacesetter]

/e wubs kat and jessie : )

[-Arlyn-]

Originally posted by Asper
AC isn't a game for young children or drunks. It doesn't claim to be. If rule-enforcement poses undue challenges for the very young, or for the sobriety-challenged, caveat emptor.

So by your logic, my POS machine that can't run AC without considerable lag, or the fact that I'm somewhat disabled causes the UCM test to pose a challenge to me, tough eh?


As I said, I'm all for UCM enforcement, I've played this game, by the rules, and not in gray areas for 4 years and my highest level character is only 99 and created in April 2000.

I do believe though, that they certainly have the ability to check the age of a character/time spent in game before deciding to arbitrarily impose a UCM test.

[Asper]

I'm not seeing where my logic describes someone with an old machine or someone physically disabled as "very young" or "sobriety-challenged".

[-Arlyn-]

It doesn't matter, the same problem exists.
The point is, no one honestly knows the story on who's running the character, hence judging by character age and in game time would be an indicator of whether or not the probability of a UCM is there in the first place.
Makes it slightly less random, more of a probable cause case.

[Ernie]

This looks to be very good. I was wandering about zone accounts though? If I were to get unbanned from AC, will I be able to log in if my zone account is still banned? Or will Turbine be able to work something out to get them unbanned as well.

[Desert Jade]

A responsible parent educates their children, in game and out. *shrug*

About the CoC, I wholeheartedly support the envoys in their difficult task. I do not envy them the endeavor.

No, the rules should not be changed to cater to the minority who might be physically incapable of responding to obscure directions. However, acknowledging that they do exist, I would hope that the appeals process addresses it.

I am the queen of typos under the best of circumstances, and judging by allegiance chat, I am not the only one. I have never been tested for UCM, but I do hope that human error is factored into the equation.

[HeXt]

Originally posted by RedSeptember_WE
(example: $A@*?&%! )

I just timed myself doing that one & it took 23 seconds, Im not a slow typer either.

Dont get me wrong, Im all for banning the UCMers but admins useing exact rules is no substitute for common scence.

There's always control C control V.

$A@*?&%! )

[HeXt]

Honestly if you guys are attending, this is no big deal.





WOOHOOOOOoo 11 hours and counting.

[SolZer]

Originally posted by TimetoDie_WE
I think the 3-strike rule is a good rule in theory...

HOWEVER, I do believe that some violations shouldn't be regarded as "strikes" if they are severely minor...

Maybe someone just messed up something... and they say ****, by accident... and there just so happens to be an envoy present and he is banned... I don't feel that it should be that serious an offense to say a "bad" word once...

But, I know that i'm going to watch my language very carefully now..., and not just blurt out a cuss word because something happened =/

Hmm, you make it sound like you can't control what you type, COME ON! Sure, sometimes blurting out a swear happens, and it's not a big deal. However, blurting something verbally is totally different than typing something for all to see.

Nice try skippy ;)

[Binky]

"I know the above reads harshly, but UCMs are a top problem; they hog areas and deprive characters playing legitimately of a level playing field"


I'd still like a little feedback on how exactly UCM's "hog areas" or "deprive a level playing field" on DT. Perhaps you all have not fully read my UCM thread?

http://forums.ac.turbinegames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1222



1) They don't hog areas on DT we can kill them
2) By banning them you are UNleveling the playing field as half the server is already level 200+ and all you're doing is stopping the lower levels from playing "catch up"

This is once again a set of rules put in to impact the white servers without the thought of how they affect DT. Don't the 100+ replies from DT'ers saying we want UCM and can police it ourselves mean anything? Whats the point of FEEDBACK if you don't listen to it?

[Nibiru]

I dont see Harrasment/Griefing anywhere in that post to me and alot of others its a very important issue.Intentionally Training mobs/leeching and quest jumping should all be covered under the COC and its not a minor issue i myself and other alleg members have been harrassed on a regular basis while just trying to sit back and enjoy ourselves.

Id really like AC to become a nicer place and i think a Play Nice plan and enforcement would be greatly appreciated.

[Wayndor]

Nice one!:D

[Mistikal]

In a nut shell, thanks, honest.

People that not follow the ToS and CoC will have repercussions, something that was laxed prior now to say the least.

I am a grown man, I cuss like a sailor irl around my friends. I also have children and know that the language I use with my friends is not something my child needs to hear, esp from their dad.

My child plays Ac from time to time and has called me in to see the stuff typed in the chat box, only to ask me *why do these people have to be so stupid and cuss*?

I tell her to squelch that person and she said dad, but thats mean.

Maybe the 3rd strike, even for profanity will get the attention of the ones that need to use it to communicate in a virtual inviroment.

[XviiX]

devils advocate here

I HAVE been banned, on two accts.
I was in sing repos, and the admin came in and told me to say some wild something
my char was taking damage, I was lagging...boom first acct banned
I started typing on second acct got 1/2 way thru bam banned

this is a true story, it happened july 03 on harvestgain

I was at the keyboard but alas looked away when my kid asked me a question about diablo 2

the mage that got banned was actually buffing both characters during that period, not vulning OR shooting

the Ua well....thats a differant story,

both accts were on two computers in the same room 2 feet from each other

the screens are in fact side by side, keyboards and mice same

they are STILL in the same configuration, and are STILL played the exact same way, albiet on DT now not HG

I dont hunt obs sing repos anymore so dont look for me there lol

I am at keyboard, and I am actually hittin the keys to kill the critters, I do use tank, but it only buffs, and heals in the BUFF only mode

I will continue to use this, war bot or whatever macro I see fit to use, AT THE KEYBOARD, whenever I want however I want

when I cannot log the chars in due to some wierd patch that makes my macro not work, I will quit paying

I am at the keyboard, I am macroing

[XviiX]

mystical
I agree with you
everyone slips from time to time though
well, 99.5%
heck I did 2 nights ago in /a chat after seeing the loot
I am the queen advocate in mouthyness removal
I think I have even been warned once or twice

[Tolliver]

Clarification please:

If I am a mage using El Tank, to make casting easier, and I am in a fellow casting vulns on the critters for the fellowship, and I am at my keyboard watching the action, and respond to an Envoy's test, am I considered a UCM?

[Korrigan]

Originally posted by Red Syke
nooo that's not right. I forget, this is Turbine. you know better than we do what is fun in a game. and if I'm not playing the game YOUR way I must be playing wrong.

Exactly, because it's Turbine's game. Their way is always right. You only rent the right to play their game.

[Dezra Nyx]

w00t! It's about time :)

I like all of it. Even after reading all the cons.

We've read the so called rule changes before, but I know it's for real this time, with the game actually being in your hands now. Thank goodness :)

[Silifi Of Death]

Originally posted by Tolliver
Clarification please:

If I am a mage using El Tank, to make casting easier, and I am in a fellow casting vulns on the critters for the fellowship, and I am at my keyboard watching the action, and respond to an Envoy's test, am I considered a UCM?


No, you're not a UCM. If you have to respond to the tests it doesn't even mean you're an ACM. They're simply scanning popular hunting spots, and looking for people that seem to be acting similar to the way a Macro works. So if you pass the test, you aren't UCMing. (most likely..)

[Kaniver]

Thank You! Coming back to AC was predicated on Turbine caring about the evolution of the game. Glad to see this being made a people 's game again. Can't wait to see what happens to the housing e-bay situation. Thank You again!

[bule elf]

for the business.
1 day
3 day
7 day ban is perfect for ac. LOL

3 Strike ban Max ban day set to 1 week will good.
If ban a player for a year. That player will not pay another 11 months monthly fee. They may go other NEWEST game. :) yes, maybe you (turbine) don't care. But if 7 days ban, that will keep racism/profanity/UCM player keep play ac. Keep play ac = AC life longer and longer. right?

YOU <Turbine> need make more Good quest are better than ban players to keep OLD players play ac. There are have NEW players? and how many? Ask youself. answer youself.

[Zero_Washu]

For all of those who are complaining that 30 seconds is too little...



If 30 seconds is too little to reply to an ADMIN just HOW IN THE HELL ARE YOU PLAYING THE GAME????


If it were that hard to type or respond you would be at the lifestone the majority of your time.

[vellus]

It is against the CoC to not reply to an admin, or an envoy now, make sure you change that part!!!

Anyhow, a tradebot and a buffbot cannot reply to an envoy, does that mean they will be getting hit as well?

Not sure, but at the very least a lot of people will not like having no buffs.....

[Silifi Of Death]

Ever think of disabled people? They can press the buttons fine (most of the time as a melee you just have to press delete when a monster dies) but they can't type out long and complex messages in 30 seconds.

[AC-Vet]

Originally posted by Zero_Washu
For all of those who are complaining that 30 seconds is too little...



If 30 seconds is too little to reply to an ADMIN just HOW IN THE HELL ARE YOU PLAYING THE GAME????


If it were that hard to type or respond you would be at the lifestone the majority of your time.


LMAO

I'm sure glad you are so confident that in 30 seconds of typing that you don't make a mistake responding back....like forgetting a keystroke or something.....you'll sit on a 3 day ban and wonder..why??

[kirkmeaux]

The UCMHC (Unattended Combat Macro Hunting Club)
Yep, it's true, I'm a member of the UCMHC. I go on Safari sometimes, tracking down UCM's at the Tusker Camps in far-off areas of the the OB plains, at the bottom of the Quiddity Ingot Quest dungeons, and at various other remote locations/Dungeons across Dereth. I hunt UCM's with characters created for specific tasks for those spots and Dungeons, some that are purely defensive so that they can walk around and track their quarry without fear of the creatures in the dungeons.

Now I realize that just seeing someone alone in a dungeon killing anything that moves doesn't automatically classify them as a UCM, so here's some of the things I look for in my prey.

1.) I watch their movements. EL tank and all those other programs make their characters turn with very precise angles, and usually on a set path if they move around at all. Their characters never drop out of combat mode, and characters that loot slowly slink towards their corpses for two minutes instead of running straight to them.

2.) I always try to start up a conversation, and if they don't answer, try again. And again. And again.... to the point of just asking them over and over "What's up? You AFK? Would you like a fellow? Need help in doing the quest?" all the normal stuff you'd say. Normal players would tell me to shut the hell up if I bothered them that much, or at least give some sort of response. But the UCM's won't, and never do. This alone isn't enough, but it's fun to talk to a wall and it kills time while I watch my prey.

3.) I try killing the creatures around me, ones that are away from the player. If their characters runs over and keeps attacking creatures I'm already fighting (and I ask them nicely to stop and share) then that's a pretty good sign the person is either a UCM or a jerk. After a couple spawns of this I will reverse it, killing off all their creatures, and if they don't yell at me to stop then that's another pretty good sign.

These are just some of the tips to help you distinguish your UCM prey from the rest of the populace who use el tank and watch behind the screen. I keep a list of people who I have found out are UCM's and those who are not for future reference. I'll always wait for a +Admin to show up and watch as they reply to my "report abuse" call. If the person is guilty, then it's all good. So far I've never had an Admin show up and my quarry not turn out to be a UCM.

The trophy I take from the "kill"? The +admin saying, "Thank you for reporting this violation." That's all I need to know my hunt has been successful! In closing, you have to use common sense when reporting UCM's, you'll get into trouble if you keep filing false abuse-reports or too many of them that turn out to be real people playing. Use your head, use common sense, and look for the signs. Good luck on your hunts!


__________________
"If my Father was alive, I could of made him proud!"
"Go back to playing video simulations, weakling!"
"What is V.A.? Variant Armour, used in combat!"
"BLOOOOOOODIA!!!!!"
Links: Jin Saotome's Dangerous Toys!


Last edited by Jin Saotome on 02-28-2004 at 10:59 PM

Report this

There are your helpfull user helpers...is this what you really want?

[micahNEO]

So are you saying that Mages who are Vulning for other players if running El-Tank are UCM'ing?

Say for example, a player has 2 computers and one is running El-Tank in "buff-only/vuln" mode (IE: no attacks or experience gain from kills or attempted kills). On the other computer this player has another toon logged in and is hunting using the vulns/buffs from the El-Tank computer. Is the El-Tank computer/account although not actually gaining XP from kills or attacks UCM'ing under this definition?

I would just like you to clarify this for me please. Thank you :)

[sylphia]

What was stated was that if yu are vulning for someone else you are SUBJECT TO a UCM test, not that you ARE UCM. This is for the folks who have a second account set up to auto-vuln the mobs for them. I rememebr seeing this question asked a couple months back, and the official response was tha you were earning experience in your life magic skill due to vulning the mobs, and that it counted as combat experience as such. That technically falls under UCM, so you are subject to the testing if you (or rather your bot/macro) is doing it.

[HeXt]

Originally posted by AC-Vet
LMAO

I'm sure glad you are so confident that in 30 seconds of typing that you don't make a mistake responding back....like forgetting a keystroke or something.....you'll sit on a 3 day ban and wonder..why??


So? 3 days, oh mannnnnnn maybe you should find another hunting spot after that. :)

[Askani]

After watching and listening to how some of the players type and talk, I don't think they can type a response back "correctly" in 30 seconds, maybe the new CoC will help their typing and talking skills <G>.

For the most part, I have no problems with the new CoC, I think the 30 seconds is a bit strict cause if a person is really UCM, it is not gonna matter 30 seconds or 3 minutes or 30 minutes.

I will be interested in how names will be judged improper. And how the notification will be done. So I guess we have to wait for that information.

I hope the response time for complaints will be timely and we see some improvements with fewer UCM's around.

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by SoulForge
gooood bye macro. gooood bye macro. gooood bye macro; hope u burn in hehehehehehe.

good job boys and girls of turbine, hit em hard!




now thats just taunting and wrong

[sylphia]

Cute Mike. I am sure YOU would be all smiles and giggles if YOU got banned for something you werent doing, because you failed a UCM test on a technicality. I am sure you would also just chalk it up to "oh well it happens" when it occurs a second time, and the Envoy is even less flexible, since he will be looking at the logs and see you have already been banned once for it. Then if by some miracle it happens to you a third time, the Envoy looking at your record of repeat offenses is going to be OH SO willing to give you every chance he can before he removes you from the game permanently.

And remember, the strikes STAY on your record; they dont go away, so even if the incidents are months apart, they will still count against you, even though you were innocent. Its a far different thing to type a couple of keys repetetively that yo have become accustomed to over the course of a four year game (namely the ones you use constantly in combat) in a matter of seconds, than it is to type a random string of gibberish symbols you ARENT accustomed to in 30 seconds. If you happen to catch it in a copy/paste, kudos. But that assuems you have full mobility, arent panicky, and actually speak the language. Oh heck maybe you were taking a drink or shoveling food in your mouth at the time you were put in limbo and sent a tell by an Envoy. Your timer starts when he sends you the first tell, not when you notice it or send your first response. Failure to comply within 30 seconds should not, by itself, be grounds for banning; it simply is NOT enough to prove aperson is UCM. All it proves is they have a slow response time. Too many things could be the cause BESIDES not being at the keyboard. I agree it needs to be short in order to reduce the time UCMs have to respond when their Admin Alarm goes off. But it should not be criterea for baning by itself.

I want UCMs out of the game as well, but not at the expense of innocent players being punished in the process. The rules need to be strict, but that doesnt mean they cant also be fair.

[HeXt]

I pay attention and attend when I play. Then again, I don't play in high risk areas or give any reason to believe I'd be a robot. I'm a very social player, and the amount of items I have on my character be it from trade or other wise, proves that. :)

[sylphia]

HeXt,
Plenty of folks who "pay attention" can still be nipped by the 30-second rule. As I said before, I used to be an MP, and I have had plenty of cases where folks were so nervous that they couldnt even remember their own name or where they were headed. Not because they were actually doing anything wrong, but because they simply get nervous around authority. The current UCM check system assumes you are guilty and yo must prove yourself innocent. It needs to be asserted that guilty or innocent, the player IS a customer, and deserves a little consideration until its proven they ARE guilty. If an innocent person fails multiple portions of the test, well that CAN happen, and theres not alot that really be done there. But to ban someone solely on a time limit infraction, ESPECIALLY if they only miss it by 4 seconds (which according to the article still constitutes a failure) is just ludicrous. Its one thing to want UCMs out of the game. Its entirely another to slap a stamp of approval on punishing innocents along with them just to MAKE SURE you get them all. Thats just unacceptible, and no fair-minded person could condone it.

[arboc77]

I'm thrilled to see that CoC enforcement again enjoys some level of priority in AC.

Many thanks from this grateful player. :)

[Liaya]

I'm guessing that part of this 30 second time limit is to assure the person is actually there straight away & not just responding to some Admin Alert waking them up...

[Red Syke]

Originally posted by Korrigan
Exactly, because it's Turbine's game. Their way is always right. You only rent the right to play their game.

you are absolutely correct.

but guess what? ;)

it's MY money and I get to decide if I like paying for this kind of heavy handedness.

I was one of the people having fun before the february patch. now i'm having less fun. my friends are having less fun. which compounds the problem of LESS fun.

Turbine doesn't seem to care that I was having fun before the february patch. And they don't seem to care that I'm having less fun now. They persist in making these pseudo fixes that appease a vocal minority. and don't build up much of ANY content to keep the attention of the loyal customers who have been here for ages.

this game is getting boring. turbine's changes are killing the fun .. not enhancing the fun.

I hope they have fun playing THEIR Game. because I'm seriously considering not continuing to pay for this.

if I manage to have fun at this game, it's because I find fun anywhere on my own. . .(I'm hard pressed to lay the credit for the fun that I have at Turbine's feet.) but Turbine is making it very hard for even me to continue to find fun here. . . .

a game should be like a soccer ball, it's a tool you can use to have fun with. but this particular soccer ball is getting shabby and hard to move around the field.

and here's the rub . . .

if I leave, my friends will have even less fun in this game and they will have less reason to stay . . . so . . . it won't necessarily be just my accts that turbine loses.

I'm sure there is a better thread to put the
I'm bored with all the pseudo fixes , Turbine. work on some REAL content

but I don't know where it is .. and . . .quite frankly, I don't care if my points get buried in the Ding Dong ! the UCMs are dead cheers or are they jeers?

I"ll give the february patch a few more tries. . . .

(dear board moderator, please feel free to move or copy this particular post to the appropriate thread if there even is such an I'm bored thread out there)


Red Syke

[WarriorWraith]

This action has been a long time coming. So many people on all servers don't believe in the +Admins system of getting banned for their absolute unruly behaviors.

Personally, the offensive language and names are a common problem. You guys are great to offer to change the names of those chars over level 20+. That is awesome of you to do so for them.

Please keep up the great work. I expect to see the new Envoy's in game !:D

[Wigdahl II]

After reading the first couple of pages, I have noticed that no mention of those folks in this game that have some sort of physical or mental challenge. I know of several individuals that could not reply within 30 seconds because of vision limitations, the mere fact that they can play the game at all amazes me. Are we going to add an addition challenge to these individuals. I would hope not!!!!!!!!

[Design of LC]

IMHO:

/e grabs his Polestar and knocks Meri to the lifestone with Blud VI.

Can you change that to Staff? Go to Bael Z'haron.

I could find that offensive and hypocritical.

So who's the one setting the obscenity test (will we ever know what it is)? What about slang? When I grew up slang was as good as saying the real thing.

Is it founded upon religion? What faith is the Turbine team imposing we follow for our community?

What about the multi-cultural players? What about calling a Japanese stupid? Not because of race, but because they have trouble understanding the english language? Are these considerations? Or saying that we got ourselves into another bloody mess? Do u acknowledge that some of the players are from your mother country?

If I am a farmer can I say teats or udder?

Is it what the +envoy feels like? Your system allowed it in the first place, now your system needs to be fixed, but instead you place strict liabiliy upon us....

Turbine... have you forgotten about who pays your bills? Customers. Go research Game Theory by Nash, understand what u are actually dealing with here. See the Players.

I am fine with all the other CoC stuff and concede to those actions, however I do not agree with your Customer Service attitude and thinking your l33t3st selves can impose constraints of free sppech with out a standardized test. Since when have you thought urselves better at making decisions than the U.S. Supreme Court.

I look forward to my ban! With the awesome improvements in the game over the last two patches, my $25.90 a month, $310.80 a year, played a few years and was looking for a few more...would be better spent on sexual toys or porn.

[Design of LC]

Sorry for the misspellings, but I was trying to get it typed before the timer ran out. Didn't want to get a timeout..or potential ban from this server! :} :}

[Justmee]

I am happy, except for the sales of Villa's on ebay.
I would hope this issue will be addressed.

[Roadkill]

I agree with Design of LC...also I agree with all of Sylphia's posts. To Sylphia i say...I wish I had the gift of expressing my thoughts as well as you do.

First the obscenities...I agree with the opinion that there is far too much filth in the game...but you must lay down a firm set of guidlines as to exactly what will be considered obscene. No matter what, you will always find someone somewhere that finds something offensive. So to leave it up to an individual's opinion opens the door to personal beliefs, prejudice, etc. etc.

Another person mentioned a very good point...there are disabled people that play this game. One post asked the question how you could play the game if you can't type a string of text or sentence in 30 seconds. Well, heres the answer to that one. If you have a mouse, all you really need other than that is to use the arrow keys on your keyboard to run around. The mouse can be used for nearly everything else. For melee, Click next monster, click attack. For mage, Click next monster, click spellbar to cast spell. Drag and drop items to sell at vendor. When I play, I rarely use the keyboard other than the arrow keys.

As for the UCM test in general, I do agree that UCM's need to be removed from the game. As far as a mage vulning monsters for someone else to kill...here's my take on it. If you are vulning the monster, you are participating in the combat...you are 'softening it up for the kill'...if you are using a macro to do this and are not at the keboard monitoring it, then you are in fact unattended, macroing, and participating in combat.

I think Sylphia said it best with the statement that we are being assumed guilty and must prove ourself innocent. This is an injustice and would be wrong. Why not just have a server-wide test for everyone simultaneously. This might be worse though. But at least it would not be placing injustices only on selected individuals.

In closing, I will say again to those at Turbine...please carefully read the concerns expressed by the players and take them to heart...do not dismiss them lightly. I will not pretend to have the answers nor act like I know what would be a better way of doing it. I don't. But it is your responsiblity to us, the customers, to find a better solution.

[dismay]

I know it's coc for ebay items ... but if we play a bought a char is there a way to find out how many strike(s) etc the account has against it in the past.

[Zeniv]

I'd like to know one thing....If I can hear it on public television in the US, such as on NBC, ABC, CBS......I would hope im allowed to say it in game.

[Askani]

It is really sad. We have this CoC announced and people already have to see if they can get around it.

I just rerolled a mule and went through the Training Academy and there was a corpse there with a name that started with N, and a word used to insult others. It was quite apparent as to why the name and the spelling was used and just made me shake my head in wonderment.

Good Luck Turbine, someone is always out to prove ya wrong.

P.S. 30 seconds is still too strict though.

[arcist1]

Ok one question? I have 5 Year old playing and he can hardly read let alone type does this mean if an envoy comes and talks to him he will be banned for not knowing how to type or read?

[sylphia]

I thought we had established already that just because its allowed on TV doesnt mean its something that should be said in game.

[Axe111]

I also have a few questions regarding the UCM testing. First, we have some younger children that do play in our allegiance they range from ages 5-10 yrs old. Everyone in our allegiance does realize their age and know that they aren't going to respond if we say something to them. Mostly, they just run around and kill things and die most of the time, which is fine, they are having fun. Although, what happens to them if an envoy has them do a UCM test? It would take them more than 30 seconds to have one of their parents run over to the keyboard and help them do this test. In my opinion I think the 30 second rule is a bit too harsh. I type pretty quickly, but I would be shocked first of all and I don't think I could do it within 30 seconds myself. Second of all from what I have been reading they may have you do the YMCA dance, snow angel, etc. This may sound ridiculous, but I have no idea how to do those commands. If I were to say to an envoy I have no idea how to do this.....would I get banned just because I didn't do the command and would it be considered UCM? I mean if I can reply to them that I can't do it, I am obviously sitting there at my keyboard. With all this said, I totally agree with cracking down on the CoC and getting rid of the UCMs.

[Ni!]

Ibn,

please keep the purpose in mind when the Envoys do this ucm test. The idea is to make sure a human is at the other end. Why should it matter if there's a 31 second lag? Seriously, this is like the turing test.

I/we can definitely understand a strong position of enforcing the CoC, and welcome it. But not at the expense of hammering a real player. I'll reference the horrendous AC2 enforcement of things like, oh... turrets. Even Caeryn Dryad*was banned for taking a whiz while having an active turret. The tacticians were given a screwjob and got banned for all sorts of goofy CoC violations which were contrary to actually playing the game. 1) they couldn't go afk (even after dying!) with an active turret but they couldn't deactivate their turrets 2) they could logout to prevent a banning with active turrets, but then would be stuck with a timer which meant they couldn't summon their primary weapon when they logged back in! The +Admins were stupidly and overzealously enforcing a contradictory CoC.

Now, how about a player that roleplays a racist against Sho? This is an IMAGINARY race... If the CoC will ban racists against Sho, how about hate speech against Virindi or Martians? ("Those Martian pig-dog bastards always messing with my packetloss!") The idea of "hate speech" should really be clarified, plus it should be required that the recipient or the person offended by it MUST register a complaint and it must be actual hate speech that makes an attack against something real.

Banning for "hate speech" with no definition is basically saying "We can ban you for any reason we damn well please, deal with it." That is NOT the Turbine I remember, with the clever policies that drew me into this game in the first place.

Please keep the big picture in mind. Only intolerant people want intolerant policies.

* Caeryn Dryad: the one that solved the FIRST large quest from AC's beta and received the only Staff of the Weeping Witness

[Azile]

The worst thing to ever happen to AC was Turbine buying it from MS.

It would have been better if MS had bought it from Turbine.

1) Fee hike was a bad idea period. How about convincing the customers you can even run an MMORPG successfully before trying to juice them. (AC2 Anyone? Nuff said!)

2) Loot system - pathetic, you have people quitting in droves because of the changes. Thanks for modeling your game like all the others, kill level 1 mob, get level 1 xp and level 1 loot, please begin the treadmill. I used to kill lower level, new mobs, just to see what kinda of loot they would drop, now, I guess we just look for the highest level stuff, just like EQ and every other game....no thanks. Notice how every post hates the loot system that you seemed to think would somehow be accepted by us? The onl

[Azile]

The worst thing to ever happen to AC was Turbine buying it from MS.

It would have been better if MS had bought it from Turbine.

1) Fee hike was a bad idea period. How about convincing the customers you can even run an MMORPG successfully before trying to juice them. (AC2 Anyone? Nuff said!)

2) Loot system - pathetic, you have people quitting in droves because of the changes. Thanks for modeling your game like all the others, kill level 1 mob, get level 1 xp and level 1 loot, please begin the treadmill. I used to kill lower level, new mobs, just to see what kinda of loot they would drop, now, I guess we just look for the highest level stuff, just like EQ and every other game....no thanks. Notice how every post hates the loot system that you seemed to think would somehow be accepted by us? The only ones accepting in are the remaining COD staff members itching for Envoy jobs.

3) New CoC policies = give it a rest. Especially for DT. The fact you do not exclude DT from PN policies is a joke. Can't wait to hear about players being given the Envoy test during a large scale PVP battle. Not to mention, we can police ourselves. Except your not even going to police us on player requests, you actually are going to administer "random" tests. Geez even UO never got that harsh with the players. Are you just trying to hand out bans? Or do you need to keep the Envoy check time down to 30 seconds so you can hit every player atleast once a day. How about players can UCM all they want as long as they are PKL at the time? No body can complain then if someone tries to macro, hell; it would even add some excitement to this otherwise stale and boring game. And since it cannot be bandwidth, since you let people use buffbots and tradebots, and you plan to random test and even hit people UCMing in completely remote places, so nobody is being bothered at all, and you further refuse to just turn it over to the players to police, it must simply be, you want a clever tool to ban players. This along with a few other tools you have, well you should, along with all the cancellations from players that are very frustrated with your lack of knowledge about your own game and the "great sweeping changes" as you try and make this game like all the other failed games...you must want another AC2 on your hands...soon maybe AC1 will be down to 4 servers! Instead of adding a new server this spring, you can take one away! Since you "took over" AC, login stats have dropped from 1000-1200 during peak times to 800-1000. Very strange huh.

[Roadkill]

How about players can UCM all they want as long as they are PKL at the time?

Interesting idea...

Would work too, if only everyone were honorable enough to actually do this. Eventually tho, UCM'ers would start their macro without going PKL in hopes of keeping their macro going without having it ended prematurely by being killed. The end result would be right back to where we are now.

Call it cynical, but I call it realistic.

edit:
There actually is a certain logic to everything being done. Does turbine really want to have a game competing with the same share of the market as they are aiming for with the MMORPG due for release next year? Hmmm....food for thought.

[Wind_Warrior]

What about people with multiple accounts. I honestly think you need to BAN all the accounts that have the same BILLING address or same CC. Quite a few UCMs laugh off their bans as they have multiple accounts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I run 4 accounts on AC, I should get banned for having them? I also run a network of computers geared to play this game along with other on-line games. I think a blanket stament like banning same accounts dosent hit on the problem, if people did things like "eh, just banned it all" hurts more honest people who like to play. By my standards most of the players on AC dont get what it means to really play RPG. They think its about leveling or beating the other oppoinent, RPG is the essance and the experience each one takes from events in the story. Some people forget this, and these are the people who UCM. So dont punish us all-

Wind Warrior
www.RoguesoftheIronWind.net

May you weapon strike true-

[Serena_WE]

Very happy to see the update on Turbine's position on the CoC.

I only hope that we see action behind those words.


:)

[TimetoDie_WE]

sounds good... just wondering how you could judge UCM and cussing on the same standard :(

[sylphia]

TtD,
On the standard that both are infractions of the CoC, and that "bad behavior" will no longer be tolerated in ANY form period. And rememebr that they reserve the right to imemdiately ban players for 1 year for actions deemed to be more extreme. There are alot of grieing RUDE players in this game, especially compared to games like EQ, who have similarly strict CoCs. I have played EQ, and let me tel you, the player base there is ALOT friendlier (and larger) on the whole than in AC. I firmly believe it is because of their no nonsense approach and firm enforcement of game rules. Remove all the badd appels, and al you have left are the folks that actually log on to enjoy the game and interact with othe rplayers in courteous manners, rather than being oboxious jerks who get their kicks flaunting the rules and spoiling the fun for others.

I agree with their move to bring stricter enforcement; its long overdue. But I do have issues with a couple of the things they are planning to do. Overall, its a good thing.

[micahNEO]

Since we've not seen any responses from devs in a while, I'm guessing they're all off duty for the weekend? Come on devs, respond to the questions on this thread, lol. Especially my question :p (found in a previous post, ha!)

[Ashake_MT]

Yes, something else that Dev's need to remember ...

There are a LOT of us playing this game on dial up connections. As such, we are even MORE susceptible to lag issues - ask anyone in my allegiance about my lag problems sometimes. It is NOT uncommon for me to be unable to move, much less respond to ANYTHING when lag hits me. I would be MOST resentful if I were banned for even 10 minutes under these circumstances. And another issue not addressed - are you going to address an email regarding a ban promptly? Or make people wait?

Many of us on dial up cannot go some places in the game because the spawn is so tremendous we simply cannot move. As the game evolves, I sincerely hope that the Devs remember that not everyon is on high speed access ... and sometimes things happen beyond our ability to control things. MY suggestion would be to wait a couple minutes to see if the party returns. In my case, because I run the family bot from my home, if I get kicked out of game, I contact someone on the bot (who is on a different connection) to let them know what happened. I'd like to think that were I to be selected for a test, and I DID get booted due to lag or lost connection, that a tell from my family bot to the Envoy would allow me to get back in to complete what we started.

[Osrik]

First of all I have to say that I fully support strong enforcement of the CoC in principle. As far as I am concened UCMing is just cheating and the game would be better off without cheaters.

My biggest complaint about the proposed system is that if the punishment for UCMing is only a 3 days ban for a first offence you are basically saying that everyone can feel free to UCM and grab as much experience as they can until they are caugut once. After that it may be a good idea not to continue.

I also have my doubts about the way these tests are carried out. I don't combat macro, unattended or otherwise but sometimes I find myself in a place (like the brood hives) where the mobs are respawning as fast as I can kil them. In that situation I may easily find myself in the position of just repeatedly hitting attack and allowing auto-target to pick the next mob for me. I imagine that could easily get me mistaken for a macroer. I also have a problem where I occasionally crash. I would have to get a ban because I was hunting in the brood hive and picked a bad time to crash.

Another problem is that there are AC players who do not have English as their first language and may not be very fluent in it. I can easily imagine that some of these could become very confused about the whole test causing them to fail through no fault of their own.

My next comment is about abusive language. While I do not want to see large ammount of abusive language in the game I think it would be a bit harsh to bad someone because in the heat of the moment they happen to use one or two words that ae considered "abusive". There is also a problem as different words can be considered abusive in different cultures. I am from England and I have noticed when watching American programming that there are some words that get bleeped out on US shows that are considered fairly harmless in the UK, and I am sure the reverse is true. When someone is being deliberately abusive it should be fairly obvious from the context, and I think discression is needed in how this one is enforced

AJ.

[Razel]

Unfortunately, if you have ever been tested before, you would know that admins rarely follow their own rules, for example, they do NOT always stop spawns , while the clock is ticking, and it is virtually impossible to copy and paste gibberish, while melee/kill damage messages fly across the screen. In addidion, i have found that 30 second rule does not always mean that that is adhered to. In reality some admins probably dont watch a clock or can count for that matter.

My point is this: you expect the admins to stop a spawn, hopefully that will be the case, as it doesn't always happen.

Secondly, from what i read of the rules posted recently, if they do not stop the spawn you should request that they do, which i have a problem with , because they should know their job. People shouldn't have to remind them of it as the clock is ticking.

My concern about these new rules is that some people will be banned wrongly, especially for a noob who has never been tested before, while they are at the keyboard, trying to copy and paste gibberish, and reminding the admin to stop a spawn while the socalled 30 second clock is ticking, provided of course that the noob knows to request the spawn be stopped from attacking. I had a character banned for three days just becuase of this, and no the spawn was not stopped. In addition 30 seconds do not = 10 in my book.
I might also add that this 30 second rule was in effect before i was even aware or read about it a week later, and the admin did not say i only had 30 seconds... He just said i ran over the alloted time.

These concerns hasnt even addressed the very young players, which there are alot of, who type very very very slowly, and may not be as skilled as others in copying and pasting etc. Nor does it account for the people where english is not their first language. If they see a bunch of jibbierish, they may simply see that as irrelevant.


You expect these admins to be all knowing, fair and honest, but they are only humans, they will make mistakes. Remember also that the new admins will be "in training" so i can see a lot of mistakes being made.

In addition, lets say you get banned wrongly, ok they tell you to send an email, you get an automated response back saying they dont even look at the emails sent for at least... 30 days. Does this make sense over a 3 day ban?

I just see alot of problems over this current system they have, and i hope that some unsuspecting noob dont get banned becuse of it.


just my 2 cents

[Sangria]

Maybe someone just messed up something... and they say ****, by accident...

Oh Please - give me a break!

How do you "accidently" TYPE out a nasty word?

In game isnt like talking out loud in real life when you drop a mace on your foot and yell "Oh s**t"

In game you have to deliberately TYPE the bad word. So, everytime someone types a bad word they are sending the message the CoC dont apply to them until they are caught.

So what if you accidently say it in white chat? Hopefully an Envoy "accidently" bans you. Dont use those words and you have nothing to worry about.

This is going to be a great thing for the game.

[Attwood]

In reference to the comment about offensive names:

"Offensive names – We are looking into this and as soon as I have more information about how we will proceed, I’ll let you know. For now, characters that are under level 20 will be asked to delete the character. If you refuse, you will be banned across all servers and it will count as a strike. Characters over level 20 may be asked to voluntarily rename the character. If you refuse, we have the option of renaming it for you or simply deleting it."

Does this also cover offensive Zone names as well? My main account was actually banned by the zone for a questionable zone name (which I was informed could not be modified) after playing for 3 years. Will this be something that will be able to be addressed as well?

I so miss all the work I put into that account :(

[Seun]

I wasn't concerned about CoC enforcement until this weekend, when a funny thing happened.

A bunch of us were standing around talking in public chat when someone new joined the group and meant to type "Hi All". Unfortunately, he got the "L" and the "S" keys mixed up and it didn't come out quite right. I know this is a very rare thing to happen and luckily everyone there knew each other and we just laughed it off, but I would certainly hope that if an Admin/Envoy had seen the conversation, they would have realized from the ensuing conversation that it was a typo and not an insult.

[moobieman]

I have never macroed ever, but all the same I have hunted in a few fellows that were in dungeons that were macro havens, I was tested for UCM, that outright pissed me off. I avoid the macro havens just for that reason.

I have asked this before, is there a way to detect if a player is running a third party app that macro's?

[polnedra]

I have never used a macro - of any sort and I wont be starting now but I do have a very real concern about the ucm test.

I am on good old dial up here in the UK and its very common (once per hour) for me to lag and be booted - as my hunting companions will testify. I often have a ping of over 10,000.

There is little chance of me passing a ucm test within 30 seconds if I am lagging - even tho I dont, never have used any form of plug in (apart from tree stats).

I rarely fight in dungeons anymore - just for this reason, what do you think turbine? any comments? any feedback for me?

Thanks

Pol

[Deena]

I have a very good friend who plays AC occasionally. He could never pass a UCM test as has been outlined. He is a grown man with Muscular Dystrophy. He has limited hand movement and almost no arm movement at all. He plays by using the mouse to target and attack and when he does have to type anything, he has to alt/tab out and use a special "mouse keyboard" to type his message, copy it, and return to AC to paste it in the chat box. He doesn't do much dungeon hunting, unless he is with me or some other friends who can help him, so maybe he wouldn't be targeted for the test. How could we help him, or how could he help himself keep from being subjected to this?
Also, if there is only a 30sec time limit, what if we run to a what we hope is a "safe spot" to take a bathroom break or to get a drink from the kitchen? That always takes more than 30 seconds, am I gonna get a ban for that just because I chose not to log out and leave the fellow to get a drink?

[Picasso2177]

Is there going to be a posted list of what words are considered foul?

This is a serious question. What one person might consider foul others do not.

A friend of mine and his family consider the word butt as a curse word.

Where as I growing up and still to this day consider **** and damn not a curse word, but I know some others do.

So how are we to know what we can and can not say?

Really not trying to be a smartass here, just want to get exact list of so I don't get three stricks for saying this I do not consider foul words.

[Grinless]

Originally posted by moobieman
I have asked this before, is there a way to detect if a player is running a third party app that macro's?

Sadly, not really.

"The client is in the hand of the ennemy"; true for all client-server apps, truer for MMORPG...

- Grinless

[-Arlyn-]

I still believe it is well within their ability to check chacter creation date and time spent actually in game, and compare those two against character level to determine if there is even a probable cause.

I could be wrong, but it seems that since not long ago they were talking of making character birthdates visible on character ID that this would be possible.

[Munjed]

I think all banns should be removed from the work of Microsoft admins.

[Sweet Mary]

In the past, there have been players that spent some time seeking out and reporting macroers suspected of UCMing. This was simply taking a wander through the popular macro spots, saying hi to players standing in one spot in combat, and reporting those who don’t answer. The MS admins seemed to appreciate this help and some of them when spoken to on a personal level encouraged it.

What do the new Envoys think of players helping to catch the UCMers?

[Nihilist]

Most of the CoC seems sensible to me. However, the bit I would like to groan about is the UCM testing. The 30 second rule for example. It seems a bit harsh. What happens if:

* You loose your dialup connection?
* You happen to have learning difficulties like a former vassel of mine.

I haven't done any combat macroing so I haven't had the pleasure of taking the UCM test; it does sound a bit - well unforgiving, and given the examples I've just listed it could perhaps lead to an incorrect banning?

[Flynn]

Given the reputations some players have for constantly harrassing other players and demanding a response to avoid being reported as a UCM, I'd like to see the envoys recording when someone reports another UCM, and whether or not a ban was given out to the player they reported. Anyone who has a high number of false alarms should be banned themself. Can this be done? I wouldn't recommend publicizing any figures on it, but it would be nice to know that anyone who constantly reports people without justification will be dealt with.

[thomas144]

I just noticed this whole topic and quickly read about the "UCM test".

I have never run a UCM - don't even know how to get El-tank to work (I've tried, but it's too complicated for me).

But, I play on Darktide, I almost always log off as soon as I see another player, and if they vuln me, I just let them kill me, I don't like to chat with them...

So, I guess if I'm in a dungeon and and envoy comes in and I'm suddenly suspended so they can test to see if I'm running a macro, I will know this is happening???? It's a bit unusual that I would even happen to have seen this thread. I just have a feeling my reaction will be to instinctively log off, which apparently can get me band...

[Flynn]

Interesting point.. how about an extra confirmation screen that says something along the lines of 'You're currently being subjected to a UCM test. Logging out now will guarantee you a ban. Are you sure you want to do this?' with the traditional 'Yes' and 'No' buttons.

Also, I think it would be worthwhile to have a system where you can register as a player who needs special consideration, such as those with learning difficulties or those are physically impaired and can't respond as quickly, so the envoys can take this into consideration. The problem is though, it would be kind of open to abuse if it's not managed carefully.

[thomas144]

A lot of people wouldn't even understand the question: "you are being tested for UCM usage" or whatever "if you log off you could be banned".

The AC UI has always been very primitive. A question like "Are you sure? (Default is No)." I am sure does not mean much of anything to many naive users. I remember the first time my mother saw a computer tell her what the "default" was - she had no idea what was meant by that.

[Sangria]

I think it's too bed that the actions of some players who REFUSE to abide by the CoC have made it so everyone feels threatened by being tested by the Envoys.

Turbine hasn't created these problems - players have by using certain 3rd party apps. Turbine is simply forsed to deal with the problems.

So - if you are not UCMing and get banned anyway - put the blame on the UCM's that continue to opperate against the CoC. If it were not for them we would not have a need for Envoys testing us.

[Dom on TD]

OMG!! I got censored. You guys need a sense of humor.

[Alltu_Tru]

Munjed, wish granted, MS no longer runs the admins and the player bans :D

Flynn, your idea of banning someone that reports to often is full of holes. First of all, reporting a UCM is NOT against the CoC, and it is NOT harasment (the admins were not supposed to say if you were reported or it was random, let alone WHO reported you, although some did I heard). Secondly, being anti-social and purposfully acting like an UCM should get YOU banned :D (notice I said being anti-social AND purposfully acting like an UCM... I did not say JUST being anti-social should have consequices (sp))

The thing is, it is WAY to easy to LOOK like a UCM, especially if someone WANTS to look like one. A rule like you proposed would simply give greifers more tools, and that we dont need.

Example: Ron likes to hunt in a dungeon, he notices that Rick comes by quite often, and when no one talks to him, admins show up shortly... Ron starts to dislike the interuptions, so he acts like a UCM every time he spots Rick, promting Rick to report him more often... Then Ron reports Rick for harasment and false reporting, the admins can not prove that Ron was egging on the reports, they just know that Rick did indeed make the reports.

If your idea of a rule was in place, Rick would get banned, even though it was caused by Ron being a vindictive ***** :D

That is why your idea should NEVER be considered a rule ;)

[sylphia]

Actually Tru, yes it IS harrassment in some cases and as such a violation of the CoC; depends on the circumstances:

http://forums.ac.turbinegames.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=13645&#post13645

I would go so far as to say that anyone who constantly reports other players just because they dont get response, is using a loophole in the policy to harrass other players. Wanting UCMs out of the game is a laudible goal, but the self-appointed assitant Envoys who go around "testing" other players just to see if they can file a report are wasting the time of Envoys and forcing negative impact on the targeted player. Its rather like calling the fire department just to see the big engines drive by.

Players that submit multiple false reports should also be subject to disciplinary action. Being "anti social" by not wanting to respond to another player is in no way a violation of the CoC, and the player who doesnt respond does not deserve to be hounded with UCM tests just because the other player is miffed over being ignored.

Resonable suspicion of a UCM is one thing. But some players go overboard with this and those are the ones that should be disciplined, not the average player who legitimately thinks they have encountered a UCM. How do you tell the difference? Investigate chat logs on players with multiple false reports. I myself had had some dinks threaten me with a UCM report for runing a buffbot, even though I was responsive and told them (1) I wasnt unattended and (2) wasnt in combat. Anyone who reported me after having that conversation would be revealed in the server logs as deliberately sending a false report, and should receive the 3 day ban they were trying to bully ME with.

Submitting false reports to the police can get you just as much jail time as the person you accused. It shoudl be the same here; it would discourage alot of false report griefing and harrassment.

[kirkmeaux]

Wonder why turbine doesn't want assistants? UMC hunters club...bad language hunters club...won't talk to you hunters club...These people are proud of their game play?

I don't even macro in tunnels any more because these people drag spawns and hide behind me to see if i'll die. And i talk to them...they don't care if im at the keyboard...they are just pure anti macro.

I've had zuul stand next to me and ban a toon across the dungeon from me that were umc. He didn't test me...he also said i couldn't have his long horned helm. He told me to have fun and went his on way.

The toons that were draging stuff out of the circle down into the tusk pit were gone. Don't know when they left. Probably when they saw this dot walking calmly through a mass of tuskers.

Well now i hunt out of ayan and vod. Course i don't have anyone to talk to because no one wants to fellow and kill hords and try to talk. Hope a envoy comes by to say hi and have fun.

[Alltu_Tru]

sylphia, thanks for taking what I posted completely out of context ;) LOL

I do NOT "EVER" see turbine punishing players that report "non-responsive" players even if they pass every UCM test. How can you say for absolute certain that person was deliberatly trying to harass you?? Just because he reported you?? That is NOT harassment, your link only proves what I just wrote.

If you dont reply, and yet you are fighting like a bot, then no one would get in trouble for reporting you as such. And that is the way it SHOULD be. For all we know, you are not replying simply to get others in trouble ;) And how could you prove otherwise? How could anyone else know otherwise?

That post that you linked to states that reporting someone that is non-responsive will not get you into trouble because for all you know, they ARE UCM!

BUT, if you were to report someone repeatedly time after time day after day, then yes, you are harassing them ;)

[sylphia]

Tru,
I took your post in the context as it compared to the post to which you were responding. Munjed made the same points I did; perhaps you just didnt read them the same way you read mine?

As to how you can tell when someone is doing it to grief...I believe I covered that already with my reference to chat logs. And aside from that, anyone who is reporting multiple ppl JUST because they dont respond is in effect trying to force their playstyle onto those players: "Talk to me or get banned". They are using technicalities and holes in the CoC to harrass players through admin calls. The folks who do this need to understand that they are being just as disruptive as the UCMs they are supposedly trying to eliminate. As such, they should be subject to punative actions. Its fine to report players you legitimately suspect of UCM. But using it as a tool to harrass others is a no-no.

And i know full well what the linked post says Tru; I linked it as an example of the abuse that these players are using, which has been clearly defined as being harrassment by a Turbie. The player who dies it legitimately is fine by me; its the ones who abuse it that I want to see punished. Griefing is griefing, no matter how well disguised it is.

[Mystech]

Here we go again.
When MS was running the show, yes you had many players as sub-cops running around trying to catch someone in the act.
At times it got ugly. If there was already a full fellow then they would report someone anyway and an admin would come and disrupt someones gameplay.

Make it legal and set up dungeons for UCM anyone caught outside the UCM dungeons get action taken.

Stop turning players against players and prevent the sensless practicle jokers and ban the ones reporting falsely.

Everyone tolerated the UCMers when the loot stayed on the ground at the lightning emporium was easy to loot.

When they started UCMing at Aerelinthe at that time a greatly used area by lower levels, they did horde the island. Something should have been done during that time.

How many people that have posted have truley been a victim of a UCM fellow that took over a dungeon? If someone is alone and not bothering anyone so be it.

I dont UCM but I see a police state coming in the game as I posted in another thread.. Stop trying to control this, you will interupt innocent players. Check the birthdates give me a break,
I am disabled and was playing 12-16 hours a day for the last 2 years. That proves nothing. Time online birthday. Lets make IDs and have a eltank detector machine in each dungeon. Place all your weapons in the basket please, you can pick them up on the other side. :)

Burn them at the stake, if they burn then they where innocent if they dont then they must be witches. lol get real here stop anarchy before it happens.

Mystech

[Alltu_Tru]

I think I understand where we split ideals at now then :D

I do not care if someone wants to go hunting UCMs, even if I was in a dungeon that they came thru, wouldnt bother me a bit.... why? because if someone says hi to me, I always say hi back :D LOL

I have yet to be in so foul of a mood ingame that I refused to at least say hi ;)

I dont see these players as "forcing" me to say hi, I do it naturally and dont think a thing of it.

Now, take anougher instance, someone who DOES NOT say hi very often and wants to be left alone.... I have serious doubts that you would find people like this in popular dungeons, it simply would NOT fit in with their mood.

On the other had, you also have to take into consideration that some players will refuse to say hi simply to provoc a responce from the person coming up and chatting. Whether they know that the person is hunting UCMs or not is irrelivant at this point. The only thing the person who first said hi knows, is that this person is killing like a robot and non-responsive. If this person reports a possible UCM, he should never get in trouble, even if the last 10 reports proved false. Just because HE had no way of knowing if someone was there and ignoring him, or if it was a true UCM.

Now, take your instance.... someone KNOWS full well that you are there, and yet reports anyways for one twisted reason or anougher. I *FULLY* agree that person should get at the very least a 24 hour ban for abuse of report button.

Where we are at odds: You are talking about people that use UCM reports against those they know are there, and I am talking about people who report when they *think* no one is at the wheel.

Is that a lot closer?

[sylphia]

Mystech,
How exactly would that solve the problem? There would still be players flaunting the rules and macroing where THEY want to macro; especially when the "approved for macro" dungeons were full of other macroers and the XP is better in other non-sanctioned macro spots. And there would still be other players trying to play Envoy. All you would do is give the UCMers a foothold to say "well if we can macro there and its ok, why shouldnt it be ok here too?"

[sylphia]

Tru,
As I said, a player who legitimately thinks that someone else is UCMing and reports them is fine by me. However, if the only criterea they use is that the target player didnt say hi back to them, then they need to stop playing at being an Envoy. Thats just not grounds enough to assume someone is a UCM. What if they are like me, and they dont use macros at all, so their fingers are tied up just staying alive? Mages have to have constant keyboard interaction in combat; melees and archers simply hit a button and wait for the mob to die. What if the target doesnt speak your languae? What if the spam on their screen is to omuch for them to catch your text? What if they dont feel like talking to you? None of that justifies sicking an Envoy on them and ruining they playtime. And there are plenty of folks who go to popular dungeons who DONT go there for a conversation; they go there for the high volume XP that makes it a popular dungeon in the first place.

I personally go for a bit of both; I hate being in a fellow where no one talks to each other. But that doesnt mean EVERYONE has to go to the dungeons for a social gathering :)

With the current enforcement changes going into effect, it is too easy to fail a UCM test, even when you ar innocent. I dont think that folks shoudl be subjected to them just because another player got miffed when they didnt get an answer that wasnt required to be given in the first place. Players that do this over and over should be subject to disciplinary action. There is far too much griefing being done, intentionally and unintentionally, in the name of ridding the game of evil-doers. The end does not justify the means.

[Alltu_Tru]

this is where it gets VERY hard.... see, I agree with most of that (almost all in fact)

but, there would still be a door open to greif someone if turbine started banning reporters that got to many false reports

also, how do you decide what volume of false and/or positive constitues a ban or not?

would there be a time limit? if so, how long?

granted, some people take things WAY to far on both sides of this issue, and I believe that neither extream is good for the game people that file 10-15-20 reports in an after noon of game time I believe should be watched, if it is determined that this person is being disruptive to live players, then the person should be warned that they are stepping over the line

but I do not think that there should be a hard number, what if my fav hunting spot had a fellow in it, and not a single one of them would talk to me.... now mind you, I have yet to see that happen... but if it did... I would be VERY tempted to report the whole fellowship IF it looked like they might be running on auto-pilot

that would be nine reports.... what if that whole fellow passed.... they simply had all chat squelched and were just talking amongste themselves... I would have no way of knowing that... to me it looked like they were bots.... should I get a temp ban because I just reported 9 false reports??

where do you draw the line....

but I do agree that some anti's take it WAY to far and should be told to tone it down or take a time out, just like I would LOVE to see some of the more "vocal" and "in-your-face" UCMers taken out of game ;)

[Escanor]

Originally posted by Red Syke
excuse me?

does this mean every mage is essentially subject to UCM tests? every patron who goes and tries to powerlevel a vassal (or even help the lowly vassal lose vitae) is subject to UCM tests?

I thought the whole goal of all the game changes to date was to encourage more quality time with your vassals. . . .

and a mage or life trained char can't vuln for a friend w/o wondering if the UCM police will come knocking on the screen? that's convenient.

you really are trying to villify us all, aren't you?

make everyone a criminal then you have us where you want us?

nooo that's not right. I forget, this is Turbine. you know better than we do what is fun in a game. and if I'm not playing the game YOUR way I must be playing wrong.

fear not , brave Turbine. I may make this a whole lot easier for both of us. I may simply choose not to play your game.

you've given me alot to think about . . . I hope I've done the same for you.

Red Syke

Although, as already pointed out any player can be tested at any time, what I think Turbine meant here is that non-xp gaining macros that are used to help a "played" character (meaning someone is at the keyboard) are still subject to COC enforcement. I could be wrong, but that is what I assumed the sentence meant. Turbine would do well by looking into hiring someone with some serious language skills to write their communications materials for them.


Turbine:

What about the issue raised on the first page (by Sylphia, I believe) regarding accidental log outs, such as crashes to desktop or lagging out?

[Escanor]

Originally posted by Ashake_MT
Yes, something else that Dev's need to remember ...

There are a LOT of us playing this game on dial up connections. As such, we are even MORE susceptible to lag issues - ask anyone in my allegiance about my lag problems sometimes. It is NOT uncommon for me to be unable to move, much less respond to ANYTHING when lag hits me. I would be MOST resentful if I were banned for even 10 minutes under these circumstances. And another issue not addressed - are you going to address an email regarding a ban promptly? Or make people wait?

Many of us on dial up cannot go some places in the game because the spawn is so tremendous we simply cannot move. As the game evolves, I sincerely hope that the Devs remember that not everyon is on high speed access ... and sometimes things happen beyond our ability to control things. MY suggestion would be to wait a couple minutes to see if the party returns. In my case, because I run the family bot from my home, if I get kicked out of game, I contact someone on the bot (who is on a different connection) to let them know what happened. I'd like to think that were I to be selected for a test, and I DID get booted due to lag or lost connection, that a tell from my family bot to the Envoy would allow me to get back in to complete what we started.

This is an incredibly important point, but moreover, it is not limited to dial-up users. I do have very high-speed access, but it is wirelessly received from my ISP; this means interference does occurr, and bad weather can have an adverse effect on the connection.

More importantly, there are lag issues that seem to be caused by the game itself, such as the classic "green link lag." I have, on several occasions, hit spots on Monkey Island were I was not lagged and could chat freely, BUT my avatar was 100% non-responsive; I could not move, get into combat mode, do any physical emote, change equipment, etc. The only thing that fixes that particular situation is logging out and back in.

If the technology at Turbine's end does not allow for the checking of such problems, then those aspects of the UCM test should be removed. As others have suggested, the test should simply be one human using common sense to check if there is another human behind the computer running the character they are testing.

[Insane Kitty]

if you really wanted to find a way to enforce the UCM testing have the admin hold onto a large shield with an inscription on it. Tell the player they have to tell the admin what is on the description of the shield.

That is one of the few ways that a char cannot be controlled from remote since they can't read the inscription.



though I am of mixed mind about the CoC ban on 3 times and using past ones. I think I got banned on one of my accounts one time by killing an admin on DT. He took it personal and banned me for a day or 2. (this was a few years ago so don't remember how long it was for)

If that counts as a strike against me, I would be very pissed about it. (though I have 2 more strikes, and unlikely I would get another 2 more against me, it would still irritate me.

[sylphia]

Tru,
I cant pull the magic number out of a hat :) But to honest, if I were an Envoy, and you reported an entire fellow, who all passed, I would be watching you for certain when you reported form then on. I would probably check chatlogs to see if you were just being petty because they refused to let you join. And I dont me YOU specifically; I mean anyone. You have to admit it WOULD look suspicious, even though in your particular case it might be pure coincidence. Thats the problem with hard and fast rules; there are always circumstances that dont fit the mold.

I would most certainly apply number of reports over time as well. If a player has a history of reporting non-UCM players, particularly several in a given day, over a period of time, then they become like the boy who cried wolf. Not only are they using an Envoy to grief other players, but they are taking valuable time away from the Envoy's duties. I wouldnt hesitate to slap a ban on a player who does this, though I would likely give them a warning first just to give them one last chance before the strikes start counting.

The "magic number" is something that would have to be decided by Turbine and the players, and it would need to be more of a rule of thumb than a set in stone law. A player that is obviously doing it to abuse would skip directly to a ban. A player that the Envoy judges is making good calls due to real UCM appearance would get a little more leeway.

The important thing is to stop the UCMs, but to also protect innocent players from being harrassed under the guise of helping to remove UCMs. Even if the guy you are reporting is rude, anti social, and refuses to fellow with you, if you dont actually have reason to believe he is a UCM, you should not be clicking that REPORT button; if you DO, then you should be the one subject to bans. Thats my view on it :)

Edited for some bad typos

[thomas144]

Originally posted by Dom on TD
OMG!! I got censored. You guys need a sense of humor.

Dom, I read your piece before it was pulled. I think it's bizarre that they censored you. I really don't know what you said that anyone would find objectionable.

[micahNEO]

If he got censored then they are reading this thread... so how about another response Turbine? There are questions here that need answers. Pleez :)

[Phosphine]

I have had recent lags of up to 79 seconds and 33%+ packet loss without a disconnect. I think you need to verify the ping rate before the test, to make sure its a good connection and stays that way.

[Mystech]

Sylphia,

What I am trying to get at is this.

When they started to enforce the CoC the last time we had many patrols at 1st, bans where being done to violators but then it slacked off tremendously. I for one was stuck between 2 mountains trying to get through and was looped. I relogged and on a few times to no avail. Tried to get online assistance but noone was there to answer the call. Now where they all out policeing the area for UCMers or just not online.

When a level 126+ was at aerlinthe one day UCMing while level 50+s had a fellow going he was taking kills from all over I did complain that was an open area that was widely used however again noone came. I also posted it way back when and again nothing was done. So then more 126s came and took over the island.

Point being. I used to work for EA I was basicly in charge of 40-50
online players that did what the envoys will be doing. we all worked in shifts to cover 20 hours of the day in game play. We where helpers to the playing public. Handling anything from profanity, abusive handles/names to general game play itself.
We had the capability of extracting a player and even banning him right then and there for further review by the upper managment. It took a few years to get an elite group of folks that
did not abuse these powers.

So how saturated will the game be with envoys? How will they be notified that there is a problem. Who will be on duty so to say and what times.

If the present reporting system is what they will rely on then I say forget it, let them UCM and the rest of us play. If they are going to enforce this, then there should be an envoy online at all times, there should be a schedule posted as to who it is in the game so they can be notified and he should be able to answer questions without getting frustrated that he is overwhelmed with tells.

I dont know how the in game works here but we could place ourselves anywhere in the game at an instant to help or control.

I would just like to see a good system implimented before the witch hunt begins :)

Mystech

[Vehementi]

Yeah, my only problem is the 30 second rule. As people posted before, remember why you're doing the test in the first place. It's to catch people who are UCMing, not to catch people who are unable to jump through stupid tests. I can just see the admin now...

+Envoy: Please repeat this: !^!HJ^k12j61K!LKJ
*34 seconds later*
Player: !^!HJ^k12j61K!LKJ
+Envoy: HUHUHUH LOLOLO U WERE 2 LATE LOLOL B&!!!!1

[Zol]

The 30 seconds also have me a tad worried.
I am not the greatest typer in the world and if the Envoy's use char such as !><*^ ect. there is no way I can get in within 30 seconds, wothout cut and paste.

The other thing that I'm concerned about is, I use a plugin that filters out allot of the combat and spell casting junk, will this accidently filter out the Envoy?
Any idea if when doing the test do they (Envoy) have special chat that might be confused by a plugin and filterd out?

[Mystech]

Yes 30 secs is a tad extreme,

If someone is truley UCM he will not be there in 3 mins 4 mins maybe 30 mins lol.

Im 51 and have poor eyesight... etc etc

I say more time should be alloted besides lets say he is UCMing and sitting there reading a book if anything it would put a scare into someone even if he replies in time.

I run Eltank and have nothing that repeats a message, I like it because of the buffing and bot and looting capability its like 4-5 plug-ins in one. Is there another UCM plug-in out there that the general popularion is unaware of that is a "Smart" plug-in?

Mystech

[KsBabe]

I disagree with all accounts being banned that is paid by the same CC also.
And one thing I have to add, I am an archer, sometimes when there is only one monster that I am fighting, I will target it, start shooting and then check on the baby. grab a drink or go to the restroom while my char is killing it. I am not running any macro of any kind, but as you know, an archer or melee will keep attacking until the monster is dead or they die one. So what if a envoy comes up to my archer at this time, and I am still killing monster or it is dead and I am standing in combat mode, I am not running no macro, but I am afk. Can this cause me to be banned becuz I wasnt at the keyboard at this time?
30 seconds isnt long enough for anyone to go to the bathroom, hunt down a three year old that has the run of an entire house nor to go any distance to grab a drink. Also I have been booted and it took longer than that for me to log out of server and not be able to respond to anyone.
Wouldnt it be better if the envoy waited around at least for a couple of minutes for the person to return or for someone to log back in and hear their side of what was going on b4 they get banned?

[Meri]

In some ways I'm a wide-eyed optimist... (yeah... sometimes I amaze myself, too) ;)

I honestly believe that the average player won't have to worry about being tested at all. Yes, if you spend 15 hours a day in Lacuna and never speak... it might be that your chances of having to do the "Toyota" emote will be a good bit higher... but then that's more or less understandable. Getting nervous about being tested now is a bit premature, imo. The second thing is that there are 3 tests administered... or at least I "think" I read that somewhere. So... even if you fail one (personally, I wouldn't do well typing "atoyot" because spelling it backwards under pressure is difficult), you have two other chances to make it good?

[usblues]

http://vnboards.ign.com/Thistledown/b5157/65151295/?8

never met an admin that spelled his name wrong,is this guy for real?

[Alltu_Tru]

sylphia,

I understand what you are saying :) and I to would be a bit watchful of someone in that position! But it would suck to get banned when you were NOT witch hunting! ;)

Like you, I would expect them to check up on it, and even keep a log of further reports from me. And considering that I've only reported about 5 people for various infractions in the past 4 years... I do not think I would have anything to worry about :D

It is just something else to keep in mind :).

[Shoku-Ti]

I have seen a few good points in a lot of these posts, so no need in me saying the same thing. However i have one question. I have a lvl 212 mage and a lvl 209 melee. Both can solo Lacuna. When I am hunting I'm at the keyboard. However when I need to rebuff. Yes I use Eltank since while being attacked and rebuffing. It will keep me alive. I use that buff time, for Bathroom breaks, Getting a drink, Talking to wife and kids. So now do I have to wonder if while my toon is buffing and not hunting. Some admin wanna be is gonna come ban me if it takes longer the 30 seconds to pee? Takes like 10 minutes to fully buff. I just know how anal a lot of MS admins were, and guess who trained the new guys.

I guess my only real suggestion would be, when dealing with customers, Leave the attitude at home. Show some respect, and remember. We are the reason you have a job. You can enforce rules and not be rude. If you can't, Go back and work the drive-thru ay McDonalds.

[anselgrey]

I find it funny that several people claim that Turbine is using the term "hate speech" because they cannot define what they want bannable and want to just cover their collective arses.


The term "hate speech" has been used in the media (and history books) for many many years. Where have these people been??

Here is a definition for Hate Speech-

Bigoted speech attacking or disparaging a social or ethnic group or a member of such a group.


I am personally glad that something will be done about hate speech, UCM, and such.

[Rastilin]

Bravo!!!

/e wipes away tears of joy.......

def step in the right direction.....

[sylphia]

Mystech,
I know the CoC policy back then was that UCM calls took a back seat to actual player emergencies like the one you described. The test for a UCM is very short, so its unlikely that it even if an Admin were in the process of administering one, that it would have prevented taking your call. Its much more likely that there were no admins online, or that they were tied up in other emegency calls. I have noticed that at certain times, its al but impossible to reach an Admin--which not so coincidentally is also the times during which UCMs are most apt to be runnig. Gee go figure
:rolleyes:

Giving UCMs a sanctuary is NOT the answer, for reasons listed in my previous post. Turbine seems to be much more adamant about enforcing rules of "fair play" than MS ever was. MS gave the impression that they viewed AC as a cash cow and made decisions from a marketing standpoint. Turbine gives the impression they view AC as a product and a service to their customers, and they make their decisions from a quality and balancing standpoint. Or to look at it another way, MS saw dollar signs, and Turbine sees a community. Many of us have been calling for a stronger CoC for years, with stricter enforcement; Turbine has delivered. There are some points that need to be discussed and ironed out to make sure that tehre is a balance between what Turbine sees as a necessity for better game environment, and what WE want to see as the customer. But overall, I look forward to a much better game once the playerbase gets the message that disruptive behavior will no longer be tolerated. I hope they have hired enough Envoys to cover the former "off shifts" and catch the creeps who slip in under the cracks and do their thing when previously there were no admins to deal with them.

I dont think we should pre-judge Turbine based on what we saw with MS at the wheel. Yes, Turbine was there all along, but they obviously werent the ones calling the shots, or they would already have had these services in place when they took over. Turbine wrote code and MS wrote policy. Well now Turbine gets their chance to do both. Now we will see if they can improve upon the old way of doing things. I think the new CoC policy is a step in the right direction--with a couple of modifications :)


Tru,
Yes it would indeed be an unpleasant experience--about as unpleasant as being hounded by vigilantes with nothing better to do than run around playing net cop. We have to rely on the Envoys to be capable of making these judgement calls; if they cant, we are doomed anyway ;)

[Little Tuffy]

I agree it's good that the UCM's are being banned,but my brother whom is 8 years old and a slow typer plays,I am a slow typer,as is my father,whom also plays,and I don't do so well under pressure,so maybe a pre-test explanation would be in order?
welll,that's all my mind can come up with ATM

~Little Tuffy

[kirkmeaux]

Yes and they broke the tell to selected button in the chat bar. Tell to copy and paste...can't do that any more. We are going to have to type the responce back in a @t. I don't know if they will accept an answer in open chat.

[Little Tuffy]

well i noticed that you can just type in /r to reply to last message you got in private chat so that will have to work for now...

[kirkmeaux]

cool dude i hope that works. Your younger and your dad and i have something in common. No typing skills. Im an old dude(is 58 old)? It takes me 10 seconds to find the key with the @ on it. Trifocals are a bummer. Hey the @ key has a 2 on it...god i can still learn!!!

[Korrigan]

Originally posted by Little Tuffy
I agree it's good that the UCM's are being banned,but my brother whom is 8 years old and a slow typer plays,I am a slow typer,as is my father,whom also plays,and I don't do so well under pressure,so maybe a pre-test explanation would be in order?
welll,that's all my mind can come up with ATM

~Little Tuffy

An 8 year old should not play AC without an adult watching over him : the game is rated for 13+ years old people ;)

[Ghetteran]

Ibn,
I know some folk whom do not respond well ( typing ) or preforming tasks like jumping pits and so on.

One friend I have in mind, has vertigo, in real life, so when my friend plays any 3d game, my friend begins to get nervous, near high areas/pits jumps and so on.
problems like vertigo, in severe cases, can have a player turn away from the screen, and try and 'move' away from the area, and so on. Also, vertigo can cause poor typing skills.

Now let me address another area.
I have a neighbor whom has MS. He plays games on yahoo and game cube and so on, I had in the past mentioned Asherons call, and my neighbor seemed interested.
Now after bringing up these issues here of handicap, what will you be doing with cases of folk with handicaps, whom in whatever capacity cannot type as fast, or preform all the possible tests you might present for a Unattended Macroer.
Personally none of my friends I play with macro, however some of them dont type well, they dont present perfect coordinations in everything.
And, responding over a 'time period' or logging out and so on.. during a test could also have other reasons..
Thinking back to my friend with vertigo, when I first started playing, ( and first found out about my friends vertigo ) we decided to climb tou tou tower. Half way up, my friend stopped, could bearly type ( because of the vertigo sensation of looking at the screen and feelings of sickness ) a half hour later, I had, gradually talked my friend down from the tower.

I have witnessed this over four years of game play in AC as well as EQ. ( we played both games for awhile ) I have also witnessed, my friend logging out, because of feeling sick and over stressed at being in a rough situation.


I am all for getting rid of unateended macroers, but I am "NOT" for seeing people with handicaps and stressful problems, and so on being penalized for not having l33t d00d skills..

Personally, I have ( turned in and, ) witnessed unattened macroers doing thier macroing, and getting caught, and talking their way out of it.
The unattened person typing and so on very rapidly after the word 'unattended' or 'macro' is typed anywhere near them.
On the other hand, I have heard tell of a young person with a disorder, being banned, for being friendly and also jumping repeatedly off the greenspire tower, because she thought it was fun.

I don't know the validity of the facts on that, but it happened on the server I play, and I read a thread about it from her dad on the vault.

I just hope, that your new admin folk have the common sense and training needed to check on whom they are testing as an unattended macroer, and the curteousy and kindness to check and verify, before becoming a trigger happy " Barney Fife" on the all mighty ban button.

I think the rules are good, I haven't any complaints about them, just about the method in discovering unattended macorers.

I hope you come up with a better solution. If however you cannot, I hope, your new staff will take to heart what I have written.

Keep up the good work,
I hope to be back in game, soon as I financially can turn my account back on ;)

[Ghetteran]

Originally posted by AC-Vet


4. I will expect the Admin's have a set by line to go by.....I was tested recently and failed because I freaked out never having been contacted by admin before....I was at the KB the entire time as it unfolded....I recieved 0 responce back from admin when i clearly didn't understand what was going on...... [/B]

Your right, it is intimidating just to see an Admin.
Society has most people freaked out by any type of authority figure, in real life and in game life.

Awhile back I had a body in an un recoverable position, I called for an admin and Zuul showed up and helped me.

I paged him, I expected him, but when he PM'd me I freaked and took maybe 15 seconds to not mistype my response.
I think I did a couple /r hi and /t amind zuul, /t admin zull, and /.t adim zuul, mystypes before I got out a response.
He was polite and helpful recovering my body, and there to 'help me' but, I still freaked out and acted nervous even though I have always played honestly and by the book.
I am pretty fast with my typing, I dont think things like #$@%^& should be used, and "NEVER" any ascii keyed things where you bloody have to type like ALT+225 to get a ß symbol or whatever. Even the most advanced typists may not know those idiotic things.
*sighs*

[MIdnightFire7]

Yeah no one should ever have to reply with the alt+# codes cause people on laptops cant use them. they have no number pad. ÿ õ and such are hard if you dont know the codes. I dont know them. Sure i have a print out of them all somewhere, but that would take to long to look up the one the admin would want.

[kirkmeaux]

Whats the command to lock the scroll box so if someone is buffing near you you don't lose the test question due to spell word spam?

[Little Tuffy]

I would agree with the short dungeon idea listed earlier but that could make players mad when portalled out,and would take a while to make
and point #2-I always watch over the 8 year old in case he needs help :)

[Ghetteran]

Okay, lets consider this.
Say for instance someone is suspect, and there is a 'shadow of a doubt' in the mind ot the Envoy that there could be a person behind the computer screen, and not either speaking very good english, or young or a poor typist or handicapped, then what?

I think there should be rather than full bannishment, a sort of 'criminal isle' a place lacking of experience or useful item gain.
The player is temporarily placed on the isle, and can be observed.

If the person is slow at responding to normal things, most likely it is someone that is slow at typing, a child, or handicapped in some manner.
The envoy could act as a magistrate, possibly the player woudl need to make a small journey across the isle, then speak with an envoy, if they dont, then they are stuck there until they 'can' make it across the isle ( which would notify any envoy that someone is waiting and ready to be 'sentenced.'

[Flipo]

I have an issue with the 30 sec response time check.

I know that the response time is seen as a key tool for determining if a player is at KBD vs running to keyboard from another room. My problem is ppl thinking that this is an accurate test.

UCM: Unattend Combat Macroing.
1. Need to be doing Combat.
2. Unable to respond to admin test.

Time checks appear to more useful for the convenience of the admin. This minimizes time employee is spending on checks.

Time checks to see if live person is behind keyboard seems reasonable at first until you factor in.
1. Lag

2. Computer problems.

3. 5 year old at keybord in starter town.

4. What you are suppose to type is scrolling up off screen.
( Sry but Admin do not always freeze action. This is first hand knowlege.)

5. Ppl who type slow.

6. Ppl who go into panic mode when admin shows up.
( Where is '~' on keyboard? Try copy/paste as screen is scrolling.)
7. Ppl who do not see admin message because of scrolling.
( Sry but Admin do not always freeze action. This is first hand knowlege.)

Dang hard for Admin to check for UCMing don't u think( i do!).

I think if i was Admin I would be thinking.
1. Observe Toon. (Is Toon combating? Where is toon fighting? Is there a child controlling the toon? How long has toon been there?)

If toon needs to be checked:
A. First rule is to get player's attention.
B. Confirm you have player's attention.
C. Apply Tests that will hopefully catch smart macro's.

So it should be mandatory to LIMBO first. Confirm Limbo worked and then and only then send out a tell every 10 secs( SPAM it! Where do u think that single tell went if i was afk for less then a minute.). If user fails to respond within the stated CoC minute then action it. if user response is automated (ie 'Tell me PW to join fellow') ignore it until minute mark is hit then action it.
if user response resembles a live response then proceed to Step C. Sorry but C should not have little dinky time limits.

I did not say what "Action It" meant. Rather then booting maybe it would be nicer to port toon to a detention hall ( insert mental picture of Asheron in room glaring down! lol) and then let another admin ahhh have a discussion with the toon or sign off that toon is afk( ban time). This would put toon in a quiet place and should get toon's attention( 'Daddy i'm someplace wierd'). If toon makes it to Detention hall then they are not lagged out. Course if its a young child u probably will see them do /lifestone and go running again. lol. Down side to this is it would increase the actual time someone could be afk and still pass the UCM check.

So lets see...Detention hall:
1. Gets toon attention.
2. Confirms that they are not lagged out.
3. 2nd Admin to sign off prior to ban.



Now if u were willing to modify the game... I'd have some different suggestions. :)

[Ghetteran]

Side note as well, ( I was just talking with my nephew whom plays Horizons ) We were discussing this isuue, and he says when he is cooking dinner, he turns on Horizons for his four year old son to play.
He says his dragon is 30+ in level and can easily kill a certain critter without any harm, this critter is in abundance in one area, and drops an item needed for trade skills, so he lets his 4 year old kill things.

I know alot of parents probably do the same thing.
I know minors under 13 aren't supposed to play, but it happens.

I can understand how a child of four would look similar to a bot program, a four year old cannot even read in most cases, ( though his child can abit )
Anyways, I just hope the envoys allow logic to enter into thier thoughts before doing somehting that could not only hurt feelings, but cause troubles.

[kirkmeaux]

from vn boards:
+Envoy Norton tells you, "Hello Deathlos. I am banning you across all worlds for three days for multiple uses of profanity and hate speech."






I told him to screw himself. And danced nude till i was banned! CANT STOP DAN UDE DANCER!!






EDIT: Btw this is my 30+ ban w00ters. ADMINS CANT STOPETH ME!
-----signature-----

Lupis - (Sold) Deathlos 186 - Rodney Farva 40 - Frank the tank 27 (SC)
Its not the Strongest or Smartest that survives. Its the one that adapt's to Change.

Thank you Mr +envoy norton for doing your job. Sorry you got insulted. I don't think 3 days was enough.

[M-T]

I understand that there has been a new change to everything sense new patch.

I have seen nothing but stupidity from Envoys sense this has occured...

I have seen envoys in town running around and moving things in the towns which causes severe lag and confusion among Solclaim and Wintercebb.

I have tried contacting several Envoys and asked them what was going on and they said "We are having fun"?

And for the envoys who back Niro's house bot that is just stupid.

Turbine Company- I know you have trouble listening to use citizens of dereth but hear me. People will quick/cancel accts to the point that you won't make enough money to hold the server itself in one piece and people already dislike what you have done.
Please listen to us and not your fellow workers.

[Bluefang]

Originally posted by Alltu_Tru
[BThis would be WAY to grey of an area... most people that I have EVER seen, do NOT leave their characters in the middle of monsters unless they have something running that can keep them alive, if you have to leave the computer, get out of the fighting zone ;) safest way for you AND your character ;) [/B]

There have been many times I have had to jump up from the comp and leave the room, even in middle of a fight. Such reasons have been:

- a 75 yr old mom who seldom yells, but when does, something is wrong, no time to **** around worry about loggin out here

- get called out for an emergency, such as pipe busted and water going everywhere, someone at the door, etc..

- diarrea ( nasty one, but does happen

- sick, but like most diehard playsers, that means little unless that throw up hits

--------------------------------------

Methods to eliminate UCM, I am for. I will say that though when I am fighting, whether moving around or standing in the same spot with a 2nd toon light my archer, I seldom pay attention to chat. When done figting or in town, etc then I start paying attention to chat.

I know many times also as a melee, that I see chat going by, but can't stop its scrolling to read because of getting pounded on by 5 or 6 critters.

I also know quite a few people that made bs toons for their kids to play now and then while they cook dinner or whatever. Many times I thought I was talking wiht the owner and thinking, dan this dude is a stupid idiot and takes forever to respond to only find out later it was their kid.

First message should not be anything complicated. Just need to grab the players attention to start with. Something like:

***************** HI THIS IS AND ACDEV OR ENVOY. YOU ARE GOING TO BE TESTED. PLEASE REPLY TO ME BY SAYING HI OR SOMETHING ******************

I really do like the hard core stand of 3 strikes and your out.
Never been banned or anything before, make sme wonder a few things. Such as all violation all the same in severity?
Such as someone pissed cause of dieing and saying Damn! verses someone telling someone else to goto hell?

I will also admit, myself I am one horrible typer and you can ask most of the people I chat with that I am 90% error rate when typing hehe. So probably others out ther ethe same.

Is this 30 second tme period a real valid test or just ther eto make it easier for admins/envoys? Less time spending on 1 person means they can move on quicker to someone else.

Don't get me wrong, I am not compplaining about this whole idea, just asking for mor einfor and pointing out thing sthat could be issues.

Myself I am a mouse point and click person and very similar when typing. I try to be quick and short in chat using along of acronyms etc. Any keys tha tinvlved like <Shift> and/or <alt> plus some others keys I will probably ignore and its eing a complete pain in the rear and stupid. A good example is:
Mos told programs use the underscore in file naming alot while more youngins do not. AC_1.exe vs AC1.exe or AC-1.exe
Don't ask me why, but it seems to be a fact. Probably has to do with hititng shift - verses jus thitting -.

What about lag and disconnects? Most of the time I am ok, but ther ehave been periods of constant disconnects while other people are running fine. I am on east coast and ac servers are on the west. Connection is nto always the best.

Another thing is sometimes peopel freak out when an +admin messages them. i was in new pk dung this updat eand got suck on a rock and could not get loose. I did an urgent assist and was expecting a reply. When I got portaled and then messaged my Admin, I wa soriginally freaking thinking I had got killed and then took about 10-15 seconds to grasp the message theat came across. Then a did a /a to admin..oops wrong. Did a .t ooops missed the + in the name and then the /r but that went tosomeone els ethat just messaged me. Finally did /t again correct and that was al ove rprobably 30-60 seconds.

About 5 mins later, was omw hunting when i get anotehr tell from an admin and took me a minute to understand waht he was asking. Here he was wanting to know if I had gotten unstuck.

Ok enough said I guess I got my 2py out.

[Ghetteran]

when some of my friend and I were playing on Shadowclaim, ( and hanging out waiting to be powerleveled to 126th by a Admin ) I got logged out and got the message " you have been banned" ( that was how they were leveling us, but heck if I or any of my friend knew that! ) almost a second or two after that happened to me I recieved about 3 different ICQs saying "ACK I was just banned, I dont know why or what for!"
I said " me too, lets try and go in and ask why?"
so we head in and I type " was just banned" someone said " thats how they level you!"
*chuckles* well needless to say, the Admin activity eventhogh possitive freaked me out.
So yeah I hope there is understanding from the Envoys that a response might not be exactly how they envision.

[Sabu]

Maybe make a public a list on what words will get you banned or a warning? Or... make people use bar of soap :P

[Ghetteran]

Oooh! I say bar of soap in the inventory, 3 makes a cake of soap.. if you earn a cake of soap you get a IRL visit from an envoy with a 'real' bar of soap and get your mouth officially washed out!

good idea!. *chuckles* (( I need to get back in the game soon so I dont feel so much like a board lurker hehe ))

[Sheralyn Jade]

I had a friend who was just banned on Morningthaw for UCM. This persons computer is such a piece of **** (ummm that's not a bad word) that she can barely stay connected for more than 10 minutes. The chance that she was actually UCM is about .000009%. She said the Envoy must've got her tell as soon as she was banned. The 30 second thing is just wrong. She probably didn't even realize what was going on for 15 seconds, then another 10 seconds to receive a tell (insert insane lag here), she is sometimes frozen in place for a good 10-20 seconds. I've witnessed this myself while questing and hunting with her. You'll never find another person who plays this game with as much honor as she does. Now she's banned for 3 days. She doesn't UCM, so some would say "She shouldn't have to worry about future bans then". She shouldn't have had to worry about this ban.


Just to clarify, she rarely runs Decal because it makes her game play next to impossible in alot of instances.

[Tara Malkav]

That's too bad Sher. :( Hopefully she can get her ban lifted.

[Ghetteran]

*grumbles* Ibn, please, I hope you are reading this, because this is the kind of stuff I am talking about.
You see? 30 second rule and 'Barney Fife' the Envoy pulls the trigger and had someone innocent banned for 3 days, what happened if he does it three more times???
Perma ban because of a poor computer, or someone that cannot type fast.
Or someone handicapped and cannot respond fast enough or in the exact way the persnickety Envoy would like them to.
What your doing is banning the truely honest and innocent, while the 'real unattendeds' whom use programs to respond or to notifiy them that people are there, can get off free.
There is one on Wintersebb, a unattended that is, this person openly flaunts their ability to get past the Admins int he past.
You let this one get by, because this person can get past the tests ( fast computer fast connection all the right bells and whistles to warn of an envoy or admin coming and complete computer savvy, so there is no errors. )
Then you ban for three days someone for being slow.
*sighs* can you not see how wrong this is?

Furthermore, what happens if they appeal this banning?
I mean its still a 'strike one' and your trigger happy envoys could get em perma banned..
Good lord, I just hate to see the ruining of a game I loved to play and have played for 4 years.
In the time I have played the game, four years, I have never used a macro, other than for making mana food, and it wasnt unattended, ( and that was before all the hype about macroing )

I always though combat macroing stupid, and pointless.
I remember 'playing' with a combat macroer at the lifestone in Glendenwoods a couple years back.
The fellow kept dying then killing the first orange dot, ( a bunny ) then off towards the drudges again and so on and so on.
Once we discovered what he was doing, we imp'd a bunny and took it into the loft of one of the shops near the lifestone, the unattended macroer would run up and bang into the lower building wall trying to get the rabbit, it was a riot to watch.

Me and several others kept this going for several days until the guy moved his macroing elsewhere from Glendenwoods.

Now, back to the innocent,
I know of people that love to play AC but just cannot respond as fast as 30 seconds would allow, These are friends of mine, and the thought of someone banning them just because of someone not understanding them, really irks me.

So what is it to be? ban the innocent, and let the hard core macroers that know thier way around an admin or envoy get off scott free?
Thats the way it is looking man,
and I am sorely dissapointed in this.

[Sheralyn Jade]

I'm not one who complains about anything. I usually roll with the punches. The person in my previous post is my friend and my mentor. She has been with me since day one. I have watched her happily give away anything and everything to some noob who thinks the high point of an item is what kind of jewel it's set with.

She lovingly watched over myself and 2 of my friends when we were noobs and made sure we knew everything we needed to know. She tought us how to play IMHO the RIGHT way. Know your character, know what you can handle, don't rely on outside buffs, etc. She patiently listened as we asked question after question and if she didn't know the exact answer, she made sure she found out.

She made the comment that she has stuck through thick and thin, but after 4 yrs, this experience has disheartened her to the point of considering cancelling her accounts. I didn't repeat that statement as a threat, this was just something that wounded me.

I understand the need to control the UCMs, I have no sympathy for them myself, but this is over the top. Innocent people are being punished for not being Quick Draw McGraw. *shakehead*

[X-Dter]

I prefer the old 10 minute testing period.

Personally I beleive you should allow people to UCM. I understand people on white servers sit in the middle of a busy place and it's impossible to remove them.

If you allowed people to UCM if they were red or pink, it could even be fun for people to try to remove them.

Thanks, just my opinion.

[BlAnK]

This is how I see it, I pay you $9.99 a month and your help teams NEVER have responded that is very annoying. I also pay for the game so why shouldn't I be able to UCM? I think UCM is very helpful when I'm busy and am not able to play. Also I believe if I am going to pay $12 that your help teams respond more to me. I DO NOT want to play if you make all these rules, also I am not that fast at timing special characters and with people spamming /a a lot it makes it very difficult to copy. I think either you should fix you rules up, or I'll go play better games, your "improvements" are quite dissapointing. Why did AC have to go back to Turbine.... I wonder why AC was sold in the first place. Anyways I love AC and I hope you notice all the unhappy players and change. Thank you:mad:

[Picasso2177]

^^^ I agree. I should be able to UCM if I want. I'm paying $13 a month to play. At least one server should be made a UCM server. All the UCMs could come here and UCM in peace and leave all the other servers that don't want them there. Just like the full time PKers have DT.

[Brand_AC]

I don't know if any of the devs or anyone with any power reads these posts, but heres my two cents anyways...

I have been playing Asheron's Call since Beta 0, which has been..5 or 6 years now i can't remember. I have never had any issues with any parts of the CoC or how it was enforced, but I feel very negatively about the changes to the UCM and permanent banning system policy. I do not know if these are just proposed changes, or if they have already gone through, but i still am disheartened equally either way. Setting up a "3 strikes your out" system for CoC violation, in my opinion, is totally unreasonable. There have been many times, while late at night when i was tired, or due to a missed key that i have spelled something else when i tried to spell "shot" or "sec" or any one of a long list of words and have accidently typed in something else. Suppose i do this and someone reports me. There goes one strike. What if i am fighting and some guy I am fighting over kills with decides to be a jerk and report me for macroing? Here comes an Envoy with his list of questions and his banning fervor ready to "do some good" for the community, when my link red lines, as it is apt to do. Oh no, my response took 31 seconds, i must be UCM'ing. Two strikes. Now i have been banned for 10 days...let's hope i dont slip up again or i'm out for a year. Too bad for me. Not only am i going to be paying an extra 3 dollars a month for Asheron's Call, now i am always going to be looking over my shoulder, running a spell check on my sentances before i send them into open chat, and wondering if the guy hunting next to me is going to pull that good old macro report trick as my connection flat lines.

I was very happy when i found out that Turbine was going to be purchasing Asheron's Call because i figured that meant putting people who care about the game into the position to make changes. I am deeply grieved by Turbine's decision to start enforcing stricter guidelines for play and for putting more power in the hands of Admins, oops Envoys, who I feel have always been abusive of their powers anyways.

I have only ever been banned once, or even given a warning for that matter, and it happened when i tried to ask an Admin how to get help because i got bugged to a wall and could not get unstuck. The Admin said that directly contacting an Admin was forbidden and then promptly banned me for the day. My only fear is that you will be giving too much power to these Envoys and potentially harming innocent players.

I hope you take what i have said into the deepest of considerations and hope that we will all have a fun and fair time in AC.

Thanks,
-Brandor



*Edited for spelling mistakes*

[sylphia]

If you want to UCM, then go find a different game that allows it. Good luck. If you find one, stay there, because you arent wanted here.

[Pedd]

If you refuse the UCM test, or fail any section, you will be banned.

so we can be ban for not knowing the answer to a questiom?
for example if you ask me to emote. and i dont know the comand for that emote, i can be banned???

[sylphia]

You ask the Envoy how to do it and he will tell you. Dont know if it counts towards your 30 seconds though.

[Picasso2177]

Syl I could really care less what you want.