Shield Hollow Bow Suggestions

[Kilandros]

I think that the Fetish of the Dark Idols should make bows both magic absorbing and shield hollow. That way archers couldn't make loot generated "melee" killing bows--they'd be forced to incur a melee penalty if they opt not to use weeping.

We all agree that the weeping bow is really underpowered. +26 Damage 118% Modifier +18 melee defense going against imbued and max tinkered AR or CB weapons is at a big disadvantage. Generally speaking, crits with weeping bow are less than 140 on decent armor while CB melee weapons can crit 230+.

So my suggestion is not to add another fetish to make bows shield hollow, but use the existing one so that archers need to take a melee defense penalty. We all know that if loot bows could be made shield hollow and brass tinked without the penalty it would really unbalance PvP. So just add this function to the Fetish of the Dark Idols.

If this were done the weeping would still have a use too. It's unenchantable and universal damage.

[Endrin]

That is the best idea I have heard so far to help balance out this problem. I'm in support of this.

[Coped]

Not a bad idea... and say you do get a +15% bow fetished it's be 5%. This would be 22% after buffs--better than Weeping at least. Although it wouldn't be unenchantable.

I definitely think something like this should be worked out. I'd like some type of bow where I could turn to a melee and kill them then turn back to a mage and kill them. It sucks as of now not being able to have fetish when killing a melee (and still being attacked by a mage say) and having to switch to Weeping.

I also think that it might be useful to put a fetish on the Weeping though. This fetish could be, rather than magic D based, just 10% across the board like isin dule and perfect light shields (which also have a bit of both worlds, AL + absorbing).

However many people, including myself do still complain slightly about the lackluster damage and especially melee mod on the Weeping... compared to loot gen weapons at least, so dunno.

I definitely think something like this needs to be implemented though.

Also wouldn't mind graveyard arrows to come in all elements... not just frost.

[dostojewski]

good idea!

[Monster]

Damn shoulda double augged my melee to frost!!! So an archer wouldn't even have to use full accuracy to do what's the equivilent of full power melee damage? Actually those new frost arrows are better than full power sword swings. I'd love to duel a melee without a shield using some of those new frost arrows just to see how badly I outdamage them. I just haven't been able to convince any of them to take down their shields yet, can't say I blame them. Perhaps some of you archers on the Turbine boards can convince the devs otherwise.

[Kilandros]

Damn shoulda double augged my melee to frost!!! So an archer wouldn't even have to use full accuracy to do what's the equivilent of full power melee damage? Actually those new frost arrows are better than full power sword swings. I'd love to duel a melee without a shield using some of those new frost arrows just to see how badly I outdamage them. I just haven't been able to convince any of them to take down their shields yet, can't say I blame them. Perhaps some of you archers on the Turbine boards can convince the devs otherwise.

Last time I checked arrows can be dodged--and quite easily mind you--whereas melee attacks cannot.

If you're going head to head with an archer and making no attempt to dodge or spin him around then you deserve to die. This would mean fighting archers takes skill rather than sheer patience of waiting for a 230+ crit while they crit you for <140.

Keep in mind that if a melee is dangerously low on health he's able to dodge arrows effectively while chugging/healing. If an archer is low there's no way of avoiding the next hit unless they evade which doesn't happen much against other players and certainly doesn't happen when out of attack mode.

I appreciate the fact that you play a mage and a melee. But unless you've played an archer it's tough to make an intelligent comment on their strengths and weaknesses. I've played all three.

[Endrin]

Monster has played an archer. The basic fact is true, archers are balanced fightign melees, but onyl if the melees don't have missle D. A melee with missle D is a very powerful foe for an archer. And lets face it, msot people have missle D trained now.

[Kilandros]

There's a difference between playing an archer and really playing an archer.

Anyone who's really played knows how underpowered they are against melees right now. Making Aegi's bows shield hollow wouldn't screw things up at all.

[MageofCruor]

LOL at this thread

Is critting for 200+ (bow) or 250+ (xbow) not enough...How the heck can you people whine! LOL is all I can say

Shielding to prevent such a crit is fine...please stop crying because you cant crit someone to death. Melees have the same problemw/ AR and other tinkered weapons when a mage pulls a shield.

Requesting this is no different then a mage requesting they add a quest to be magic absorbing hollow.

Your whinning has already made melee/archer BY FAR the most used template in this game, replacing the template that actually takes alot of skill to use ...Mage.

I fear that AC is slowly becoming more like WoW and other games....Purely Template based.

Stop crying or the Devs might actually be dumb enough to listen to you and ruin the dynamic that has made AC so great...PvP!

And to quickly address the newblet complaining about a melee having missle D trained....Lol this is no different then having a melee complain about you having melee D on an archer. Please stop the CRYING! If you don't like your current template change it to suit you better vs oppents you have trouble with...GEEZ!@

[Coped]

^Have you played an archer? And no, not 2 years ago, recently.

Evade a melee, ha!

I've said this before on these boards and I'll say it again.

Weeping and Phantom have absolutely horrendous melee mods. Guess what, on my maxed melee archer, I am matching skills with a max weapon skill. Yet, I have a horrible melee mod and what do they get?

+10% salt/ash, +17% buff, +15% base, and +4% mukkir buff.

That's a possible +46% attack. Hell, and they can even go tink it to +50% if they wanna hit me even more often.

Archers complain about melees w/ missile because they are near impossible to kill unless the melee is an absolute retard. While even if we put out similar DoTs when they had missile, they would win simply because they can dodge an arrow, I can't dodge their melee attack... especially when I lose all melee D when healing.

Don't tell me training missile is anywhere near training or speccing or maxing melee on an archer, because it's not. The only people that would ever whine about my maxed melee on my archer are either people without maxed skill, well, wtf do they expect? Or people who have horrible weapons and neglect to use advantages like salt/ash that are at their disposal.

Also, bows with new frost arrows compare to CB, CS, AR and weeping sword damage. Sounds fair to me considering they cost the same. You train (just train, not spec and max or anything) and you reduce most archers to the speed of a full melee swing.

Yet the difference is, our full swing can be dodged.

[Kane99]

They need to scrap all forms of pvp on white servers.

[Endrin]

LOL at this thread

Is critting for 200+ (bow) or 250+ (xbow) not enough...How the heck can you people whine! LOL is all I can say

Shielding to prevent such a crit is fine...please stop crying because you cant crit someone to death. Melees have the same problemw/ AR and other tinkered weapons when a mage pulls a shield.

Requesting this is no different then a mage requesting they add a quest to be magic absorbing hollow.

Your whinning has already made melee/archer BY FAR the most used template in this game, replacing the template that actually takes alot of skill to use ...Mage.

I fear that AC is slowly becoming more like WoW and other games....Purely Template based.

Stop crying or the Devs might actually be dumb enough to listen to you and ruin the dynamic that has made AC so great...PvP!

And to quickly address the newblet complaining about a melee having missle D trained....Lol this is no different then having a melee complain about you having melee D on an archer. Please stop the CRYING! If you don't like your current template change it to suit you better vs oppents you have trouble with...GEEZ!@


Your lack of knowledge on the subject and misplaced anger could only be the cause of an incurable level of ignorance.

1. Archers and Melees are 2 completely differn't classes with little in common, so stop grouping them as the melee/archer class.

2. Do not insult the Devs, they have been doing a fine job this past year.

3. I am not crying, but apparently, you are, because mage is no longer near invincible.

4. All the classes take a large amount of skill to play well, mage does not require more skill then any other to play well.

5. This thread is about the fact that melees can use CB weapons against archers while archers have to use low dmg sheild hollow weapons against melees.

6. This game will never be as dumbeddown as WOW, and I fail to see how implimenting this suggestion could do anything to make AC more WOWish.

7. If your getting crit for over 200 by any weapon, you need to get some decent armor.

8. I have to go to work now so I'll take a break from proving you wrong, back later.

[Dread-Vitae]

They need to scrap all forms of pvp on white servers.

Best suggestion I have ever read on these forums

[MageofCruor]

I actually don't play a mage anymore...thank turbine for that = P

I play a hybrid Archer/UA.

I'll argee with weeping not having a good enough melee D mod. But seeing that it is unenchantable I dont see the Devs raising it all that much.

Even though I do play a melee...I'd agree 100% that all the attack bonus' that melees get are insane. Bunny foot, salt and ash, yadda yadda are a bit much. Its disgusting how much love melees have gotten over the past year.

And to say the Devs have done a good job is a bit of a stretch....they are trying Ill give them that but saying decent is even a stretch.

When I can hit delete and practically go afk (asumming iam going melee at the time) and get a kill is hiliarious.

And to quickly respond to your "get some decent armor" comment. The 204 Crit i was reffering to happened to me on my mage w/ full major wards and celdon armor 270+ base...which banes to 690+ (which of course you know). Don't think its possible to go much higher then that...although I could be wrong.

Mages do need to get some love there is not doubt about that. Melees need to get a little less love. And archers need not get much more love expect mayb address the Melee D issue.

I am just so used to being about to go from archer to melee I neglected to realize how much I really dont evade as an archer once a melee shields.

Maybe give an archer a melee D type of salt and ash pages that adds 10-15% which can only be used on bows. But even that can be exploited by soemone lol.

[Kilandros]

I actually don't play a mage anymore...thank turbine for that = P

I play a hybrid Archer/UA.

I'll argee with weeping not having a good enough melee D mod. But seeing that it is unenchantable I dont see the Devs raising it all that much.

Even though I do play a melee...I'd agree 100% that all the attack bonus' that melees get are insane. Bunny foot, salt and ash, yadda yadda are a bit much. Its disgusting how much love melees have gotten over the past year.

And to say the Devs have done a good job is a bit of a stretch....they are trying Ill give them that but saying decent is even a stretch.

When I can hit delete and practically go afk (asumming iam going melee at the time) and get a kill is hiliarious.

And to quickly respond to your "get some decent armor" comment. The 204 Crit i was reffering to happened to me on my mage w/ full major wards and celdon armor 270+ base...which banes to 690+ (which of course you know). Don't think its possible to go much higher then that...although I could be wrong.

Mages do need to get some love there is not doubt about that. Melees need to get a little less love. And archers need not get much more love expect mayb address the Melee D issue.

I am just so used to being about to go from archer to melee I neglected to realize how much I really dont evade as an archer once a melee shields.

Maybe give an archer a melee D type of salt and ash pages that adds 10-15% which can only be used on bows. But even that can be exploited by soemone lol.


PvP isn't about evading--no one counts on evading anyone enough to make a reasonable difference so giving a archers a salt and ash page for melee defense would be negligable unless used in PvP.

And what good would it do to be used on a bow which hits for 3 damage on shielded targets?

This is all about equalizing damage so that archers can be more competitive against shielding melees. Another drawback to playing archer is that in order to fight melees you need to go without aegis...Melees have shield of isin dule or standard aegis which can be used with either weeping or loot weapons.

So far it seems like most people are in favor of this.

[Endrin]

Ok, I'm back from work, so lets see, where did I leave off cruor.

You will not get criticaled by any bow, no matter what in the armor and qards you described, you must have gotten hit on a lower Al helmet then.

And my suit is tinkered cov which is higher Al then any celdon suit, helps quite a bit.

[Monster]

I agree with MageofCrour. My bro killed an archer a few weeks ago who was using those new frost arrows. He was getting crit 230ish even though he has a decent major suit. The archer with max hp and magic D still took four wars to kill. All the archer did was side step to throw off wars and fling arrows, meanwhile my bro had to cast like a maniac just to stay alive. It was actually quite sad watching the archer heal after 100 point hits. Where are the aegis hollow wands for mages?

Anyway so I kept my eye out for an archer to go no shield against. Found one with 472 hp and max melee D, surprisingly he was still getting noticeable evades with a +20 melee D dark bow out. I found limited success in throwing off arrows by full bar dodging him like I would a mage. Most of the time I had no time to pull out and it made no sense to try. Bottom line is I was getting hit harder and in less time. There's really no time to pull out to dodge between arrows and as long as he nails me with one arrow per swing he still does more damage.

An xbow would be a killer. Would make melee hybrid temps too powerful, I don't want a UA guy with speced xbow whipping out his xbow to outdamage me since he saved so many credits with UA. The combination would just cost 2 more credits than sword.

If they made bows shield hollow then they would have to do the same for melee weapons so archers can't just pop shields themselves. So really the only ones getting screwed would be mages. One year after the march patch and melees/archers think they are entitled to that kind of damage all the time. Group fights would be even lamer than they are now. Don’t hand me this it should only be balanced for 1v1 crap. A big part of Darktide, the server with pvp in the description, are group fights. Unless you only ran into people one at a time or could only damage one person at a time then you might have a point.

Kane99's idea would probably resolve 90% of the issues posted here. You and 2 PKLers are for this idea.

[Kilandros]

I agree with MageofCrour. My bro killed an archer a few weeks ago who was using those new frost arrows. He was getting crit 230ish even though he has a decent major suit. The archer with max hp and magic D still took four wars to kill. All the archer did was side step to throw off wars and fling arrows, meanwhile my bro had to cast like a maniac just to stay alive. It was actually quite sad watching the archer heal after 100 point hits. Where are the aegis hollow wands for mages?

Anyway so I kept my eye out for an archer to go no shield against. Found one with 472 hp and max melee D, surprisingly he was still getting noticeable evades with a +20 melee D dark bow out. I found limited success in throwing off arrows by full bar dodging him like I would a mage. Most of the time I had no time to pull out and it made no sense to try. Bottom line is I was getting hit harder and in less time. There's really no time to pull out to dodge between arrows and as long as he nails me with one arrow per swing he still does more damage.

An xbow would be a killer. Would make melee hybrid temps too powerful, I don't want a UA guy with speced xbow whipping out his xbow to outdamage me since he saved so many credits with UA. The combination would just cost 2 more credits than sword.

If they made bows shield hollow then they would have to do the same for melee weapons so archers can't just pop shields themselves. So really the only ones getting screwed would be mages. One year after the march patch and melees/archers think they are entitled to that kind of damage all the time. Group fights would be even lamer than they are now. Don’t hand me this it should only be balanced for 1v1 crap. A big part of Darktide, the server with pvp in the description, are group fights. Unless you only ran into people one at a time or could only damage one person at a time then you might have a point.

Kane99's idea would probably resolve 90% of the issues posted here. You and 2 PKLers are for this idea.


I'm all for melee weapons being shield hollow. I don't understand why mages think they're entitled to being able to cheat a death by shielding and chugging. Fact is, you shouldn't be able to tank 2+ melees--I'm sorry you've grown so used to being able to over the last 7 years but that's just stupid.


P.S. Kane plays Leafcull

[Monster]

The point is mages can fight odds in limited situation using everthing at their disposal. The same is possible on a melee and I'm sure archers have situations that they can fight odds. Shields play a big roll in numbing down the march patch damage.

Chugs play a much bigger roll for melees/archers. I never thought I'd see the day a melee/archer would complain about chugs. I don't pop shields 1v1 and plenty of other mages don't, if I have to out and chug I don't hesitate, but I burn through the vast majority of my chugs in group fights. If a mage has to shield from massive CB crits against my melee, I don't blame them. Shields mainly come into play in group fights.

If shields become hollow to the imbued weapons then it's time to seriously consider aegis seeking war spells and enviroment hollow war spells. Or how about if a melee sticks then they should be forced to stick for about 5 secs so they can't just run off again. Aegis hollow war spells would work. It's way to easy for a melee to run off, hide, avoid you and wait until a bunch of them stick to you at the same time, meanwhile they already have a huge 3+ war spell cushion. Melees aren't the only ones who can come up with messed up ideas.

The march patch made all classes viable 1v1, they have more than enough at their disposal to win. Now they should take group fights into consideration.

[Kilandros]

The point is mages can fight odds in limited situation using everthing at their disposal. The same is possible on a melee and I'm sure archers have situations that they can fight odds. Shields play a big roll in numbing down the march patch damage.

Chugs play a much bigger roll for melees/archers. I never thought I'd see the day a melee/archer would complain about chugs. I don't pop shields 1v1 and plenty of other mages don't, if I have to out and chug I don't hesitate, but I burn through the vast majority of my chugs in group fights. If a mage has to shield from massive CB crits against my melee, I don't blame them. Shields mainly come into play in group fights.

If shields become hollow to the imbued weapons then it's time to seriously consider aegis seeking war spells and enviroment hollow war spells. Or how about if a melee sticks then they should be forced to stick for about 5 secs so they can't just run off again. Aegis hollow war spells would work. It's way to easy for a melee to run off, hide, avoid you and wait until a bunch of them stick to you at the same time, meanwhile they already have a huge 3+ war spell cushion. Melees aren't the only ones who can come up with messed up ideas.

The march patch made all classes viable 1v1, they have more than enough at their disposal to win. Now they should take group fights into consideration.


Well honestly I think only bows should be hollow since arrows can be dodged no matter what

You can shield against melees if you're getting ganked and continue to dodge an archer while out of attack mode. That's a pretty significant difference.

[PepaoftheBOLP]

Silly idea. Archers will be overpowered in group fights if this is implemented. Critting me for 200+ in my head when I have a shield out isn't fun.

[Endrin]

Bows wont crit anyone for 200 damage unless they have mental problems, so lets get that out of the way right now.

Secondly, the Aug I have suggest for 2 months now that no one supports, woudl solve everyoens problems.

Here show it works.

Sheild-Break augmentation. Can be taken up to 3 times.
This augmentation allows you to ignore a portion of the targets sheild level, or in magic mode, ingore a portion of their magic absorbortion.

1st aug: 30%
2nd aug: 60%
3rd aug: 90%

that way sheilds and aegis are still effective, but their effectiveness can be downgraded so they arn't fail safe methods of staying alive.

[Monster]

I must have mental problems then because I was taking 210 bow crits on al 680 solls through a major ward.

Endrin would you still be for that idea if they added an aegis breaking ability that scaled the same way?

Kilandros if we gave archers their bottle and let them crit 200+ plus through shields, what stops them from popping shields themselves against melees? You seem to fail to acknowledge the fact that an archer will outdamage a melee significantly and it's not realistic for a melee to dodge an archer consistently. Maybe a UA can get a poke or two in depending on how high their missile D is but you don't kill people with pokes.

[Coped]

^Read more clearly.

or in MAGIC mode, ingore a portion of their magic absorbortion.

1st aug: 30%
2nd aug: 60%
3rd aug: 90%

that way sheilds and AEGIS are still effective, but their effectiveness can be downgraded so they arn't fail safe methods of staying alive.

And personally, I think mages deserve a magic absorbing property themselves, as well as some slightly magic absorbing breaker since when you have wards and high magic D, you are hitting someone for 100-125 at best really, 175 on crits or something maybe. Now if you are against someone with low 300's in HP, this is fine. It's a 2 hit or very slightly more.

You get against someone with 400+ HP? They can tank 1 war without bothering to heal... 2 wars they can still heal, altho might chug first. After 3 wars this is still under 400 HP in damage and often not even a streak will kill and they can chug and heal from even that. So you need 4 frikin' wars. It's a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

[Endrin]

Hey, monster.
You ask me why I didn't include a aegis breaking effect in my post, but I did. Mages do deserve an aegis breakign effect.

Scroll up and look at my post^

I think sheilds are the problem, period. Shields need to be nerfed for everyone. Sheilds including aegis and yes dark missle weapons. We need more offencive power for archers and mages and less defence for everyone.

Gettign rid of shields, solves that problem.

Plus, melee vs. melee fights will actually be resolveable without both parties agreeing not to use sheilds. Cause we all know how a fight between 2 maxxed UAers with sheilds and weepings goes. No where.

[Kalazar22]

If a melee has missile D, he shouldn't die 1v1 to an archer. MissileD limits an archer so much. It messes with him trying to shoot a melee who spins around him, and messes with his dodge vs mages.

[robthehand]

im against this idea. in a melee vs a melee fight nobody can kill anyone if one guy pulls a shield so why should archers get a super weapon to run around with?

Sounds pretty lame to me.

As a melee without any missled i laugh at alot of the archers here saying that a melee with no missled vs a archer is even.

Archer absoultly own melees with no missled, by the time you have powered up for a attack they can machine gunned you with 3-4 full powered hits.

I think the main problem is most people who play archers these days suck bad at pk. I never had a problem killing anyone melees included when i played a archer before weepings came out.

[Endrin]

Archers dont fire full power shots rob, they fire half power shots, if your comparing it to melee attacks.

Right now an archer vs a melee without missle D is a fair fight, because archer damage is limited to weeping while melees get to use CBs.

[Monster]

Their accuracy bar just determines whether or not their shot hits but each shot is the equivalent to a full power melee swing.

[Endrin]

No, no it is not. A bow shot is at 100% dmg, a melee full swing is 150% damage.

[Monster]

Those new frost arrows crit similar to a full power sword swing, if not slightly harder. An xbow would definitely hit harder.

[robthehand]

um a archer shooting at 100% 4 -5 times with full power vs a melee hitting once with %150 doesnt seem to even to me.