Turbine, you don't see a problem here?

[Nemesis_Enforcer]

Bonuses a melee/archer can have to their weapons that help in pvp:

Stasis water, bunny foot, rage of grael gems, pages of salt and ash


bonus a mage can have: ??? none, because we're still forced to use weeping, and weeping used to have decent mana c but you nerfed it to 2% long ago


plus, why are melees able to use weapons that require 400 skill to wield, but mages awesome pvp weapon requires only that you have 300 in life

wheres our upgraded wands?

seriously though, do you plan on doing anything to balance out the uncountable number of unbalances in pvp right now?

[Object of Envy]

I completely agree with OP on this issue. Mages are getting shafted hard right now in pvp. In my opinion, they should either add a human slayer salvage imbue, which could potentially screw things up even more with brassed wands OR another, more realistic solution: substantially increase the pvp bonus on a wand ONLY when it is tinkered 10 times with Green Garnet. So, the bonus increase would occur normally, until the 10th tinker, in which it would get even higher than a weeping wand. That way a mage couldn't exploit the melee d bonus, the best it could have would be the +15% innate.

Another idea would be to add elemental upgrade stones (like a ward scythe gem or something) to a weeping weapon. Increase the damage output in that specific element, and let players get multiple weepings. It would add a cool new quest element for people that like to pvp, and would also add more strategy.

Mage options are ridiculously limited in any case, and something definitely needs to be looked at. NOTHING needs to be done to increase defense of any kind though, only offense. HP levels are so insanely stupid; melees can literally ignore dodging wars if they have all wards. Just make it so mages can work or quest toward pvp-specific weapons that give them a higher damage output.

[Raui]

I completely agree with OP on this issue. Mages are getting shafted hard right now in pvp. In my opinion, they should either add a human slayer salvage imbue, which could potentially screw things up even more with brassed wands OR another, more realistic solution: substantially increase the pvp bonus on a wand ONLY when it is tinkered 10 times with Green Garnet. So, the bonus increase would occur normally, until the 10th tinker, in which it would get even higher than a weeping wand. That way a mage couldn't exploit the melee d bonus, the best it could have would be the +15% innate.

Another idea would be to add elemental upgrade stones (like a ward scythe gem or something) to a weeping weapon. Increase the damage output in that specific element, and let players get multiple weepings. It would add a cool new quest element for people that like to pvp, and would also add more strategy.

Mage options are ridiculously limited in any case, and something definitely needs to be looked at. NOTHING needs to be done to increase defense of any kind though, only offense. HP levels are so insanely stupid; melees can literally ignore dodging wars if they have all wards. Just make it so mages can work or quest toward pvp-specific weapons that give them a higher damage output.


I agree. An elemental weeping wand would be a nice plus for mages without taking anything away from the melees. I wouldn't want it too powerful, but certainly the Human slayer we have now isn't on par with the weapons Melees/Archers have.

Especially with the Spectral Arrows, I'll hit an Archer with wards, that has a Dark Frost Bow for 110-150, they'll hit me for 60-80x3 (the amount of arrows that can be shot at speed before the 4 seconds of my cast can go by) and 170-200 crits in the mix. They shoot faster and crit 2x as much with a Dark Frost CS bow. So, now on top of the credits I put into War Magic, I have to put even MORE credits into Missile Defense to evade them, which will only succeed to force them to crit me as much as I hit them. The saving grace is they can't move while the shoot at high accuracy, but with the ability for Archers to diversify how they shoot their arrows, they still have little chance of hitting someone with a 3-4 second charge per arrow fired.


In the end, I feel that archers can either be incredibly deadly when you don't have Missile Defense, or be sub-par and a nonfactor when you do. A viable solution would be to lower archer attack damage and remove Missile Defense all together. It isn't good for anything PVM wise and the PVP aspect it controls is unbalanced. That would force players to take damage from bow continously and improve the need for dodging versus templating up -- and but their damage output wouldn't be catastrophic when they do hit you.

[Raui]

You guys are ridiculous, mages are THE STRONGEST PK class in the entire game. Maybe if you add these elemental weepings you can somehow too add the ability for me to fast-cast arrows.

You guys really need to get some better armor if you are getting hit that hard. With a maxed out CB slash bow I hit my mage patron for 139 points of damage on a CB. That would only be like 170 with frost arrows, hardly enough to get a kill considering he has 460 HPS and can stam to health at any second for that whole amount.

Not to mention mages WITH missle defense... Thats a whole other story.. Besides if you slidecast right half my arrows will hit the environment even if I'm right in your face!!


Use a CS Dark bow full wards with those spectral arrows. You'll hit for 60-70 a shot, crit 1/3 of the times you land and get hit for 110-130 per war. Wars are easier to dodge than arrows are. Much easier. I've said it before though, I think Missile Defense makes or breaks any archer PVP. If a mage doesn't have it, good Archer PVPs can destroy mages. If a mage does have it, great archer PVPs will never win if the mage is smart.

I think they should seriously take Missile D out, and lower the damage of archers. That'll keep archers dealing consistant damage. Might be less than it is now, but it'll be constant, which will be much better and more balanced than nub archers.


EDIT:

And if you can't hit a mage that's casting when you're in his face, try shooting from his side. His side-to-side powerslides won't dodge arrows. Also hotkey "Lead Missile Targets" and turn it off when you're up close and against their sides. To their front, turn it on so their jiggling cast tactics will force them into the arrows and not away from them.

By the way, you can force arrows out 1/2 a second quicker if you step and shoot at the exact same time. Log on Morningthaw tonight and PM me on Raui, I'll show you how if you want. Arrow comes out like 1/2 a second faster, which may not sound like a lot but it is when you're one shot away from slaying someone and they're about to S2H7 back to full.

[Object of Envy]

/agree with Raui.

And for the record, my armor is all 670+ buffed. I played black-server beta and have been seriously pvp'ing for nearly 8 years. Mages definitely need some kind of a change to their pvp damage output.

[Monster]

Mage's certainly could use some attention in pvp. I'd rather they focused on ways to undermine the aegis effect than increase war damage across the board. Tanking can be excessive 1v1 but I'd rather put up with that than take a 250 point hit in a group fight. There's some potential for an aegis render property that could be applied to loot generated wands and it could ruin any melee D bonus so that's not an issue. If it renders enough it could end up being similar to weeping wand hits or slightly better and give mages useful CS and CB crits. This would have no effect mage vs. mage. Melees/archers need to respect war spell damage again.

I'm just not sure how it would effect the new AL aegis's that are 10% and whether this or a weeping wand would be the better choice. That could led to some problems with melees switching between them.

[Raui]

Mage's certainly could use some attention in pvp. I'd rather they focused on ways to undermine the aegis effect than increase war damage across the board. Tanking can be excessive 1v1 but I'd rather put up with that than take a 250 point hit in a group fight. There's some potential for an aegis render property that could be applied to loot generated wands and it could ruin any melee D bonus so that's not an issue. If it renders enough it could end up being similar to weeping wand hits or slightly better and give mages useful CS and CB crits. This would have no effect mage vs. mage. Melees/archers need to respect war spell damage again.

I'm just not sure how it would effect the new AL aegis's that are 10% and whether this or a weeping wand would be the better choice. That could led to some problems with melees switching between them.


That sounds like a good idea to me. You're right about the Aegis being the issue. Though war magic is a good strength, maybe a slight bonus to the minimum damage would be neccessary.

[Nemesis_Enforcer]

Thanks for the comments everyone, now could we get a response from turbine?

[Element]

Krezt = fail

Everything else = win

Mages are nerfed. That's all I'm gonna say and all I need to say.

Fix it, Turbine.

[-BallaTheFeared-]

Here is the problem...

Mage pvp is based around exploiting the fact that Turbine sucks at making games.



So how can you balance a game, where one mage can't exploit said things, vs one who can?



I was playing a friends mage and compared to 4 years ago when I played AC everything has changed.


We used to have the ability to port and recall during combat....



Not anymore, so once you engage in a fight with a melee you have to exploit the jump spin bug just to have a chance of disengaging with them.


This needs to be fixed.


People shouldn't be forced into getting ganked, or forced to roll with 5 buddys because nobody solo pvps anymore.


Melee's hurt people, they can kill people, same as archers... this wasn't the case when the changes went into effect.


You can get away from a mage, you can't escape a melee without exploiting, and as always.. you can escape a archer.




Please remove gank mode from DT, recalling out should always be an option...


Buff mages, I can get away from them if it's a bad fight as melee... but really what mages and everyone else needs is an escape method.



Zomg 5 level 234's ganked a level 120 and he got away, nerf this? Wtf are 5 level 234's doing ganking a 120 in the first place? Why would anyone ever ***** that they can't get kills and then turn around and just easy mode kills?


If all you're after is DI's then go fight mobs, pvp is about pvp and skill.. that's why DT is still around. It's not about running around in gank squads kill everything ruining the experience for people of lower level.


I love DT, I love the Hardcore nature of it.. but forced ganks should have never went into this game, having no option but death is lose.


It's no longer fun when you're trying to pvp and run into a fellow and get ganked with no options at all.





Solo pvp is what I've always been about, but it's pretty much dead. I don't like this, I wish it would change.

[Raui]

Well, I see what you're saying with that but that's a different issue. 4 years ago they didn't have the damage they have now for any of the classes.


The topic of discussion is the damage output of all 3 classes. Mages do 110-140 against melees and archers, but melees and archers do incredible damage, and for melees, they do the damage guarenteed, unless you have the defense skill to evade it -- which makes mages use MORE of their skill credits, having already spent a butt load on War Magic, just to evade a broken melee attack mechanic.

I was fighting today and this happened:
Critical hit! K o o p a T r o o p a mangles your head for 254 points of slashing damage!

My helm is AL 669 buffed and I have major armor on.




Like I said before, I think the best idea for now with PVP balancing is to remove Missile Defense entirely from players in PVP, and drop the damage in PVP that archers can deal.


What does this do? Archers now have mobility and manueverablility, strikes that, if they land, will hit consistantly, and a DOT stat, instead of a spontaneous super crit that wins the fight for them.

As it stands, Anyone with Missile Defense has zero threat from an Archer, and anyone without it is screwed because archers can hit so incredible hard, and absorb so much damage.

Think about it, Aegis Bow that is CS, + 166%, + Cold Spectral Arrows = Xbowers hitting for anywhere between 60-80 PER HIT, with 160-180 per crits. With that CS, they double-crit 3-4 times, I've been Triple Crit 2 times TODAY alone with that setup.


Lets face it, damage is a bit lopsided. I know it seems difficult to balance things, but trying to tweak around Missile Defense by upping damage will only screw the people that don't have the ability to get it due to their template choices. PVPers shouldn't be required to have Missile Defense in order to compete. Especially mages that already dump a buttload of credits into the most expensive skill in the game.

[-BallaTheFeared-]

I can agree for the most part.


But I can never agree that just because war costs so much to spec therefore it should own all.



War is more versitile then any melee/archer. You have every element, and max damage for said element in pvp just for specing war.



If anything War Magic should req less skill credits, not get buffed because it costs more.

[Kane99]

Best idea, and easiest, I think...was the idea to add the option of imbuing wands with Elemental Stones, to give them more of a bonus. All of the items are all in game and it wouldn't be unbalancing to melees, considering they already have this option.

Also, the next best solution would be upping the bonus vs players Green Garnet adds, making loot generated wands viable in PvP, just like loot generated melee weapons are.

And finally, the Aegis issue needs to be addressed. Either cap it off at 10-15% protection, or make it so you don't get the bonus while not in attack mode. Or both would be best.

The Aegis is way over powered and is one of the easiest quests in game.

[Xenpor]

I like the idea of being able to use the elemental stone on Weeping wands. Ex: Acidic Weeping Wand, Human Slayer, +10% Acid Bonus vs Players.

[Raui]

I can agree for the most part.


But I can never agree that just because war costs so much to spec therefore it should own all.



War is more versitile then any melee/archer. You have every element, and max damage for said element in pvp just for specing war.



If anything War Magic should req less skill credits, not get buffed because it costs more.

Well, yes, and that's a good alternative. The justification is still there. For an archer to spend less and gain more obviously has a ring of sense to it. For a melee to spend less, deal more damage, and take less damage than a mage, also has a ring of sense to it. Unfortunately, if they lowered the cost of War Magic it would pave the way for Mages to boost themselves that much more, and sadly, where once mages were slightly underpar, now they would be severely overpowered.


I like the idea of being able to use the elemental stone on Weeping wands. Ex: Acidic Weeping Wand, Human Slayer, +10% Acid Bonus vs Players.



Best idea, and easiest, I think...was the idea to add the option of imbuing wands with Elemental Stones, to give them more of a bonus. All of the items are all in game and it wouldn't be unbalancing to melees, considering they already have this option.

Also, the next best solution would be upping the bonus vs players Green Garnet adds, making loot generated wands viable in PvP, just like loot generated melee weapons are.

And finally, the Aegis issue needs to be addressed. Either cap it off at 10-15% protection, or make it so you don't get the bonus while not in attack mode. Or both would be best.

The Aegis is way over powered and is one of the easiest quests in game.


The only thing about both of these statements is that it doesn't address the real problem. Balance. I agree that elemental weeping wands would be great -- alternately substituting the Green Garnet boost, as Kane mentioned -- but it won't fix PVP, it will only fix mages.

I play all types of PVP characters and feel that they all have major weaknesses and major strengths.

Pros imo:
Mages
Mages are the most customizable as far as PVP Style -- followed closely by Archers, and least of all Melees.

Melees
Melees can be incredibly powerful and if played right, can produce an incredible amount of kills. They can tank 3-4 wars and then jump their HP back up in no time, while dodging.

Archers
Archers have the distance advantage and can hit for incredible damage when fighting the right opponent.

Cons imo:

Mages
Mages deal damage that is rivaled by Archers and Melees, with less functionality, item wise. We have one real weapon: The Weeping Wand. Any other wand is to combat Melees with our own, flawed melee defense.

Melees
Melees have the least mobility of all the classes -- good melees know how to over come this by dodging, most over come it by tanking incredibly.

Archers
Archers are completely useless against a character with a high missile defense. Missile defense is sorely over powered versus max bow. Max Missile Defense will evade constantly, unless the archer is on full accuracy, in which they become a target for 4 seconds while they attempt to MAYBE hit, once, for a very low DOT comparison.



Remedies imo:
Mages
Mages should get the Wand bonus. This will provide them with a bonus without taking away the edge that wards and Aegis provide. People will obviously know what element the mage intends on using before the fight even begins, so its not like its a surprise factor. Mages also can use this % bonus to compensate their lack of Aegis (better offense is the counteractant to a better defense).

Melees
Melees should only have Aegis in Combat mode, and I think potions should force you to stop until the entire potion animation is over. That way if someone wants to instantly heal for 120 (tumerok salted meats), they have to stop and expose themselves for 3 seconds. I think that's sufficent enough for any skilled mage to compensate his style for.

Archers
Archers should have their damage lowered, but have Missile Defense completely revoked in PVP Combat. Accuracy setting would be for PVM only in this case, and that would provide 2 major bonuses for Archers:
a) Archers would hit constantly. This forces people to actually have skill and not rely on Missile Defense to taint an otherwise potentially good fight.
b) Archers would have a higher DOT, not a higher single-hit, therefore the lowered damage would be for balance, not for nerfing. An archer could dodge more fluidly, instead of forcing accuracy, and a mage could combat that by arrow dodging and relying on things like their armor for protection. If you die to an archer then, its because the archer is better than you at PVP.







Feedback?

[Nemesis_Enforcer]

Was reading through patch notes, mages have literally gotten nothing in a very long time, they don't even mention mages.


Whats going on turbine? Are we even going to get a response?

[Dread-Vitae]

If 100% of the population posts here agreeing that mages need a boost, then Turbine will start to listen

[Raui]

Omglol@you.^

[self_adhesive]

mages are archer food unless they train missile defense.

if mages get any help... make sure it's on a 90-day timer to a quest that takes 5-6 hours to run and they can only apply the (insert_enhancing_item) to a loot gen item that is hard to find.

to this day i haven't successfully imbued a 'perfect' or even semi decent pk bow for adding stasis... and the fetish of the dark idol quest is annoyingly long with a crappy timer.

mages have their niches - they don't need to be the best at everything.

working as intended.

and i do agree with above poster about portal magic, you should be allowed to run away from a fight... either with your legs or magic (especially when you're in a tiny tiny place). what hope does a level 20 have when mr 200 rolls up? do like you do when king arthur's men met the white rabbit... RUN AWAY!!!

[Jida]

When you are level 20 you should not have anything on you that you care about nor should you have issues with vitae.

Furthermore, lol at 99% of this thread.

[Rim]

and i do agree with above poster about portal magic, you should be allowed to run away from a fight... either with your legs or magic (especially when you're in a tiny tiny place). what hope does a level 20 have when mr 200 rolls up? do like you do when king arthur's men met the white rabbit... RUN AWAY!!!

In my opinion, the no portal for 30 seconds after PvP contact was one of the best updates ever made for PvP.

I think that there were 3 major changes to the game that helped PvP a lot.
1. Nerf drain 1, although I don't like the current solution, drain 1 needed a nerf for PvP.
2. Weeping weapons, the ability for Melees and archers to do very good damage in PvP.
3. No portal magic during PvP combat. AC1 has far too many means of escape, and in fact, I would like to see more ways to stop an opponent from fleeing a fight. Maybe a player castable "weight of the world" that would cost 500 mana, and lasts for 3 seconds, which would make it pretty worthless in 1v1, but it would allow for mulitple people to kill a single target.

[Raui]

In my opinion, the no portal for 30 seconds after PvP contact was one of the best updates ever made for PvP.

I think that there were 3 major changes to the game that helped PvP a lot.
1. Nerf drain 1, although I don't like the current solution, drain 1 needed a nerf for PvP.
2. Weeping weapons, the ability for Melees and archers to do very good damage in PvP.
3. No portal magic during PvP combat. AC1 has far too many means of escape, and in fact, I would like to see more ways to stop an opponent from fleeing a fight. Maybe a player castable "weight of the world" that would cost 500 mana, and lasts for 3 seconds, which would make it pretty worthless in 1v1, but it would allow for mulitple people to kill a single target.

If you do an inept level 1 on a target that's trying to get away from you, all you need is faster legs. If you're a melee, you'll probably get the kill if you're not stupid.


to this day i haven't successfully imbued a 'perfect' or even semi decent pk bow for adding stasis... and the fetish of the dark idol quest is annoyingly long with a crappy timer.

You're not doing something right, because I can't think of a single decent archer PVPer that doesn't have a good PVP Bow. If you do NOT have a PVP Bow, that is not Turbine's Fault, an issue with PVP balance, or difficulty of the quests required, its you not doing what you gotta do.

I have one archer that I rarely PVP on, and I have 2 Dark Bows. A classic, 166% Mod AR that's Black, because I always wanted one - and a Cold 166% CS Dark Bow that I use the graveyard arrows on. As it stands, Dark Bow + Wards + HP + Some level of skill will make or break a fight. If you're good at an archer, you'll never die. If a Mage has Missile D, you'll never win. If he doesn't, he's gotta be on point, or he'll die.



I'll stick with my original idea of removing PVP Missile D, lowering Archer Damage, possibly increasing the Melee D mod on weeping range weapons, and giving mages elemental weepings. That'll balance every archer/mage, archer/melee, archer/archer fight, not just 40% archer/mage fights and nothing else.

Melees can out damage an archer with loot weapons -- archers don't have shields -- archers can chain gun arrows with their super weapon, but won't do anything with a loot gen, so they just use the weeping. at that point it'll boil down to stats, which is inevitable anyways. HP, Melee D, healing level/kit/timing, stuff like that.

[Raui]

You have to remember that people will make excuses for not having the PVP Skill to counteract the other person. Every class has its champions, and every class has its weaklings.

[KaineXXVI]

Mages hit me hard still I have been caught off guard a few times with regular hits for 170, im max resist with full wards/shield.

On the other hand a human slayer imbue isnt a bad idea as long as you guys like it across the boards. But mages with melee wands speacially those with melee spec are hard for me to hit ( max sword majors salt bla bla)my swords +att gets debuffed faster then i can pull my wand and do thiers after all a mages wand is allways out. So I would suggest a -15 melee to anything it lands on that would be fair.

[Midgar]

Mages hit me hard still I have been caught off guard a few times with regular hits for 170, im max resist with full wards/shield.

On the other hand a human slayer imbue isnt a bad idea as long as you guys like it across the boards. But mages with melee wands speacially those with melee spec are hard for me to hit ( max sword majors salt bla bla)my swords +att gets debuffed faster then i can pull my wand and do thiers after all a mages wand is allways out. So I would suggest a -15 melee to anything it lands on that would be fair.

You're kidding right? Melee D is a joke enough with pages of salt and ash readily available every 24 hours. Hell, I don't even use up all 10 within a day. It's not hard to unequip a weapon so it's not debuffed, just gotta pay attention to the spell words. More importantly, try getting a self buff sword and you won't have that problem at all if you're so incompetent with unequipping it.

I don't see what's up with people arguing about any of this anymore though. Turbine never has and never will listen to the playerbase. Most of the time they just implent some useless crap that the minority wants and don't bother fixing what needs to be fixed until years later.

[Nemesis_Enforcer]

Mages hit me hard still I have been caught off guard a few times with regular hits for 170, im max resist with full wards/shield.



Perfect example, an archer is considering a 170 hit a "hard" hit, while I consider his 240+ crits a hard hit

and mind you, 170 is about as "hard" as a regular hit is going to get , pretty fking pathetic

[Jida]

The only thing a Mage needs is someone playing them that can.

The rest of the people play melees or give up on AC and play Archers.

[SilentDrainer]

Have any mages tested a CB wand in PvP? I mean if melees who usually hit for 50 - 60 on full power swings hit for 220 damage crits, thats like 4x the damage, so wouldn't a CB war spell that crit be a one shot kill to most? I also like the idea of allowing elemental weeping for mages.

What is up with sword and UA? I've seen both crit for over 200 undodgable damage while I hit for 110 - 150 damage with my 28 credit war magic. Heck last night I was fighting a UA player and was crit for 100 on speed. Why does someone who paid 6 credits out damage my 28 spec war credits? I don't actually expect turbine to read this or address the issue of overpowered melees and underpowered mages.

[KabritBois]

Lol at this thread, please turbine don't listen to any of this.

Keep up the crying.

[Rim]

Archers... Max Missile Defense will evade constantly, unless the archer is on full accuracy, in which they become a target for 4 seconds while they attempt to MAYBE hit, once, for a very low DOT comparison. Sounds like the life of a mage.

Archers
Archers should have their damage lowered, but have Missile Defense completely revoked in PVP Combat. Accuracy setting would be for PVM only in this case, and that would provide 2 major bonuses for Archers:
a) Archers would hit constantly. This forces people to actually have skill and not rely on Missile Defense to taint an otherwise potentially good fight.
b) Archers would have a higher DOT, not a higher single-hit, therefore the lowered damage would be for balance, not for nerfing. An archer could dodge more fluidly, instead of forcing accuracy, and a mage could combat that by arrow dodging and relying on things like their armor for protection. If you die to an archer then, its because the archer is better than you at PVP.I'm not the best PvP mage and I don't often get hit by arrows even without missile D.

I would rather the accuracy bar be adjusted so that fastest speed be closer to 75% accuracy instead of 50%, middle bar should be 100% and full bar should be 125%.

Max spec bow should be 465 with major bow and major coordination, and at half bar I could think that would hit max trained missile D almost every time (if someone specs missile D then they should evade some).

Mages... Mages just need to be able to evade some while doing decent damage. There are many approaches to achieve that goal but I think upping the damage of streaks to 40-80 and making the elemental bonus on wands for PvP the same as it is currently for PvM would be good starts.

I don't think that these are final solutions, but small steps that might help us better understand a better path while not breaking anything.

[-Kaxak-]

Bonuses a melee/archer can have to their weapons that help in pvp:

Stasis water, bunny foot, rage of grael gems, pages of salt and ash


bonus a mage can have: ??? none, because we're still forced to use weeping, and weeping used to have decent mana c but you nerfed it to 2% long ago


plus, why are melees able to use weapons that require 400 skill to wield, but mages awesome pvp weapon requires only that you have 300 in life

wheres our upgraded wands?

seriously though, do you plan on doing anything to balance out the uncountable number of unbalances in pvp right now?


Turbine + Balance, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

they havn't got a clue!

[BG1337]

thats why most of the people play mages? Most of the best pks are .... mages.

GF was close

[Nemesis_Enforcer]

Most people play mages? since when? retard, with a comment like that its obvious you don't even play darktide, so please stay off of the PVP forums.


Also

September Patch:

Melees get: a no drop high al aegis with wards

mages recieve: nothing


yet again, mages get shafted

[Grimfell-DT-FF]

Pros imo:
Mages
Mages are the most customizable as far as PVP Style -- followed closely by Archers, and least of all Melees.

Melees
Melees can be incredibly powerful and if played right, can produce an incredible amount of kills. They can tank 3-4 wars and then jump their HP back up in no time, while dodging.

Archers
Archers have the distance advantage and can hit for incredible damage when fighting the right opponent.

Cons imo:

Mages
Mages deal damage that is rivaled by Archers and Melees, with less functionality, item wise. We have one real weapon: The Weeping Wand. Any other wand is to combat Melees with our own, flawed melee defense.

Melees
Melees have the least mobility of all the classes -- good melees know how to over come this by dodging, most over come it by tanking incredibly.

Archers
Archers are completely useless against a character with a high missile defense. Missile defense is sorely over powered versus max bow. Max Missile Defense will evade constantly, unless the archer is on full accuracy, in which they become a target for 4 seconds while they attempt to MAYBE hit, once, for a very low DOT comparison.



Remedies imo:
Mages
Mages should get the Wand bonus. This will provide them with a bonus without taking away the edge that wards and Aegis provide. People will obviously know what element the mage intends on using before the fight even begins, so its not like its a surprise factor. Mages also can use this % bonus to compensate their lack of Aegis (better offense is the counteractant to a better defense).

Melees
Melees should only have Aegis in Combat mode, and I think potions should force you to stop until the entire potion animation is over. That way if someone wants to instantly heal for 120 (tumerok salted meats), they have to stop and expose themselves for 3 seconds. I think that's sufficent enough for any skilled mage to compensate his style for.

Archers
Archers should have their damage lowered, but have Missile Defense completely revoked in PVP Combat. Accuracy setting would be for PVM only in this case, and that would provide 2 major bonuses for Archers:
a) Archers would hit constantly. This forces people to actually have skill and not rely on Missile Defense to taint an otherwise potentially good fight.
b) Archers would have a higher DOT, not a higher single-hit, therefore the lowered damage would be for balance, not for nerfing. An archer could dodge more fluidly, instead of forcing accuracy, and a mage could combat that by arrow dodging and relying on things like their armor for protection. If you die to an archer then, its because the archer is better than you at PVP.







Feedback?


Interesting point of view.

This is the first time i've been on these boards in 3 or more years and my goodness, now I know why this game has so many problems. People giving retarded advice about things they know nothing about.

Irritating. I'll post my fixes later for you all when I got some more time to read all these threads/posts.

[Object of Envy]

What's wrong with elemental stones for weeping wands?

[Nemesis_Enforcer]

Just 1v1'd an archer

Didn't get a single war on him that was over 190 damage

he has 441 health

the same thing is said for melees that have aegis

you are pathetic turbine

[Shon_Tsu]

Heres my thoughts for Turbine to ignore.

Back when weepings first came out, all was good (I played a melee then).

Spells did about 180-200 dmg on everyone and average health was around 300-350.

Since then aegis has come out. That was nice. Melees could now get hit once and not be in immediate danger of dieing if they messed one dodge while healing. That was about the good point. However since then:

Everyone has major wards for all elements.
Everyone has 400-450 health.
Both melees and archers do significantly more damage now.

Everyone complains about aegis/etc. To me the problem is that everyone has significantly more health and more protection. I think its too late to do anything about the health/wards, however mages should get their damage back up to the point where 2 wars can kill people without aegis (with wards) at around 400 health, and 2 wars + streaks should have a shot at killing anyone regardless of aegis/wards/etc.

Whether thats done with lvl 8 wars, or by boosting weeping wands, or doing something with loot wands I dont really care. One thing I would like to see is that if you go with a change to loot wands (say a human slayer imbue) that it nerf melee d damage). We dont want a case where mages can do great damage and melees cant hit them reliably.

As someone whos basically only played melee, I want to go back to the balance where melees helped in group fights, but we struggled 1v1 unless we were particularly skilled or the mage was particularly bad.

[edit]I found this recently on old messageboards for the guild I was in when weepings came out:
You gotta go get your weaping wand rayne, I've only been hit for less than 200 a few times with them, and never under 170. Average is around 250 without aegis

We need that kind of damage back.

Another couple of points:

Even though Aegis was out then, melees (and archers) are much more likely to have max magic d now for maximum aegies effect.
Better chugs (120 health) now
Templates allow maxed/spec'ed healing now.

Combine those 3 and its SO easy to heal out of danger now (if you even let yourself get into danger in the first place).

[Nemesis_Enforcer]

turbine doesn't care why bother

[Kane99]

10% Aegis effect, and only working in attack mode.

As well as a increase in damage on all Weeping Weapons...

Problem solved.

[Rim]

Heres my thoughts for Turbine to ignore.

Back when weepings first came out, all was good (I played a melee then).

Spells did about 180-200 dmg on everyone and average health was around 300-350.

Since then aegis has come out. That was nice. Melees could now get hit once and not be in immediate danger of dieing if they messed one dodge while healing. That was about the good point. However since then:

Everyone has major wards for all elements.
Everyone has 400-450 health.
Both melees and archers do significantly more damage now.

Everyone complains about aegis/etc. To me the problem is that everyone has significantly more health and more protection. I think its too late to do anything about the health/wards, however mages should get their damage back up to the point where 2 wars can kill people without aegis (with wards) at around 400 health, and 2 wars + streaks should have a shot at killing anyone regardless of aegis/wards/etc.

Whether thats done with lvl 8 wars, or by boosting weeping wands, or doing something with loot wands I dont really care. One thing I would like to see is that if you go with a change to loot wands (say a human slayer imbue) that it nerf melee d damage). We dont want a case where mages can do great damage and melees cant hit them reliably.

As someone whos basically only played melee, I want to go back to the balance where melees helped in group fights, but we struggled 1v1 unless we were particularly skilled or the mage was particularly bad.

[edit]I found this recently on old messageboards for the guild I was in when weepings came out:


We need that kind of damage back.

Another couple of points:

Even though Aegis was out then, melees (and archers) are much more likely to have max magic d now for maximum aegies effect.
Better chugs (120 health) now
Templates allow maxed/spec'ed healing now.

Combine those 3 and its SO easy to heal out of danger now (if you even let yourself get into danger in the first place).

Agreed.

[Raui]

10% Aegis effect, and only working in attack mode.

As well as a increase in damage on all Weeping Weapons...

Problem solved.

Archer Damage Lowered and Missile D removed for PVP and I'd say we've got the best idea out there.

Archers have reliably, instead of a hit or miss pending on who decided to waste the credits on missile defense, mages hit hard enough to balance the PVP with their reliability, Melees can tank still, but actually have to dodge now, and can't absorb magic spells while they're chugging/healing, therefore they have to learn how to actually move and not heal at 1/2 way and know that another war won't put them in immediate danger.

[Jida]

1) Learn how to play your template.
2) If fail then go change or reroll.
3) Stop trying to fight the best in the game using their best templates that best fit their playing style with something you are not good with.
4) If all fail, quit before you think posting up horrible PvP suggestions are a good idea.

[-Kaxak-]

Most people play mages? since when? retard, with a comment like that its obvious you don't even play darktide, so please stay off of the PVP forums.


Also

September Patch:

Melees get: a no drop high al aegis with wards

mages recieve: nothing


yet again, mages get shafted


Turbine doesn't care about mage's, and I'm about to show them my vote of what I think about that with my wallet and unsub ........ pretty boring to play a mage for the last 3 years and receive nothing special that really helps a mage in PvP or PvM for that matter , yet I see patch after patch of melee goodies being handed out

how many shields do we really need ? and yet the dev's added 2 more this patch

[Raui]

1) Learn how to play your template.
2) If fail then go change or reroll.
3) Stop trying to fight the best in the game using their best templates that best fit their playing style with something you are not good with.
4) If all fail, quit before you think posting up horrible PvP suggestions are a good idea.

Who was that directed at?

[Raui]

Sounds like the life of a mage.

Well no, mages can move. You can't move while you're charging a shot as an archer. You can dodge very well as a Mage while you charge your shot. You can't dodge at all, otherwise the game resets the charge.


I'm not the best PvP mage and I don't often get hit by arrows even without missile D.

I would rather the accuracy bar be adjusted so that fastest speed be closer to 75% accuracy instead of 50%, middle bar should be 100% and full bar should be 125%.

That's just modifying a broken skill. You said it yourself, you don't often get hit by arrows, so why add to the difficulty for an archer by adding the ability for them to be evaded after they finally do hit you, after waiting 25% longer for their shots to come out? That sounds like you're hurting archers and helping mages -- which sounds good for mages, but for no one else.


Max spec bow should be 465 with major bow and major coordination, and at half bar I could think that would hit max trained missile D almost every time (if someone specs missile D then they should evade some).


Sounds like a viable solution, but you have to bare in mind that it doesn't solve the fact that xbowers deal out more damage per shot than you do per streak, and this change would be the same as my idea of removing missile D -- at least for the majority. The average person isn't going to spec missile D unless they have to, and that would just cause more problems in the long run, because it would drop mage skills down to make room for Missile D. Missile D is a thorn in the backside of PVP.


Mages... Mages just need to be able to evade some while doing decent damage. There are many approaches to achieve that goal but I think upping the damage of streaks to 40-80 and making the elemental bonus on wands for PvP the same as it is currently for PvM would be good starts.

I don't think that these are final solutions, but small steps that might help us better understand a better path while not breaking anything.

I think Mages deserve elemental weepings with bonuses similiar to the elemental bonuses in PVE that regular wands have. If that's what you're saying, then my apologies.




All in all, your ideas and my ideas aren't that far from each other -- minor tweaks here and there, and ultimately I think that we're on the right track. Something involving the balance between Archer Skill, Damage, or Accuracy, and its counterpart, Missile Defense, and its role in the equasion. I say it should be taken out, you say it should be tweaked for effectiveness. Either way it should be changed. Mages should have elemental damage that boasts their weapon preference choice so opponents can ward up to specific types.



You have to keep one very important thing in mind. Mages are skill-based characters. Your spec'd skills are secondary to the skill of the player. When a skilled player is playing a mage, fighting an obviously less skilled opponent, and is still having a more than difficult time killing that opponent and it has absolutely nothing to do with the player himself, but instead the skill set he has, something in the balance between their characters needs to be resolved.

I think that resolution is what we defined above.