Has anyone tested the new acid arrows in PvP yet? [Archive]

Sightblinder

10-19-2007, 10:19 AM

Severlin OMG LISTEN TO US

we do NOT want pvp based around crits

archer pvp is crit based

melee pvp is crit based

melee damage is fine, little too much for group fights but w/e you won't listen to us about it

archer damage is WAY overpowered, xbow is even worse

we do NOT want mage damage to be crit based too... especially since mage crits are rarer.

GOD sometimes it's like you're not listening at all. we tell you EXACTLY what the problem is then don't listen. It's mage LOW END DAMAGE thats the problem.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/2720/screenshot00271md1.jpg

this guy is a terrible pvper & not even a high level. He instant ran after the first war hit. Just after this SS I was lucky enough to get 1 more streak on him. Come on, you're rewarding people behaving like cowards.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/378/screenshot00268qw7.jpg

Maybe he was auged.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5987/screenshot00270mr4.jpg

I missed the SS where I crit him for 205 with lightning as well. 3 augs? lol. Dmg is just dumb.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5952/screenshot00267rr0.jpg

Minru is an archer. My shoes are al 464 major focus. Good going turbine.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9493/screenshot00263me6.jpg

This sort of insane variance is idiotic. Fix it.

For the LAST TIME, you CANNOT balance all classes so they have equal opportunity to duel. You HAVE to balance for GROUP PVP. That means the dmg that doesn't take skill to dodge (melee) should be weakest. Archers next weakest, then mages.

BlackSpit

10-19-2007, 10:37 AM

the dmg that doesn't take skill to dodge (melee) should be weakest. Archers next weakest, then mages.

How convenient for a mage. :)

Sightblinder

10-19-2007, 10:46 AM

Severlin

10-19-2007, 11:11 AM

Some of our current thinking on the state of PvP:

We understand your point about low end war magic. We just are wary about increasing the overall damage output of mages by the that much. Make no mistake, the low end variance numbers players are suggesting are a huge boost to overall mage damage. We are listening, and in this case we disagree that this would be good for the game overall.

As for PvP being crit based, well it really *is* crit based right now, mostly because a diligent player can heal through predictable damage. It's the crits that throw a wrench into their healing cycle. It's not that we are designing it that way, or necessarily want it that way, but that's the reality from what we have observed and played. The only thing that can challenge a steady and well played healing regiment is back to back crits.

Changing war magic variance won't change that - it will just change the point at which the opponent will heal. Fixing PvP so it is not crit based will be difficult, because of two things;

~ Healing is probably too effective
~ Mages are more reliant on healing than melee for survivability

This means that some of our ideas for PvP, like spells and strikes that debuff the amount someone heals, really punish mages more than melee. Is fixing this possible? Yes. It's just hard because it will require a rebalance where PvP is less reliant on healing and that also means we would have to buff mage survivability to compensate. If we tried to do this the PvP community will be... resistant to large scale changes like this. Maybe if they understood what we were trying to do they might not totally explode. Another problem with large scale changes like this is that the PvP community would have to live through the inevitable tweaks needed to balance things after such a change.

Worse, in the end a change such as this might totally backfire and we find out that maintaining that healing regiment is really an important and compelling element of our PvP and we didn't want to do that at all.

For such a simple looking system AC PvP is extremely complex, and the balance is fragile. If we seem slow to move on changes, well, that is why. We would rather be careful than too overeager and have to back out changes.

Two additional points:

~ Higher end arrows were added because the community had the opinion that archers needed love in PvP and PvE. They are, in essence, us responding to player feedback.

~ I probably shouldn't open myself up to flames by revealing some of our current thinking about the state of PvP but I feel that the fact that we are thinking about it is worth the potential for players in disagreement to flame us.

Sev~

Sightblinder

10-19-2007, 11:51 AM

I think that is the first dev post... in 5+ years... that actually has a little insight into the pvp system.

I know people have said archers are underpowered - it's going to sound hard to believe, but the class has been competitive for a long time now - especially since aegis bow. The problem was nobody played archer for so long. Fact was in pvp there have been maybe 3 decent bow pvpers in over 4 years that I know of.

IMO archers are perfectly balanced (damage wise) pre-spectral frost arrows & w/e these new acid arrows do. Just make the acid/frost arrows do the same as the slash/pierc arrows.

As for war damage... I understand you think people will just heal more if the low end damage is raised, but it doesn't work like that. Mage pvp is basically landing multiple spells in a row to finish somebody off quick. The problem with pvp now is a mage (without aegis obviously) is taking 2 wars, tanking multiple streaks, sometimes requiring 3 direct wars to finish.

Archers/melees can tank 2 safely & I've tanked 3 on my melee before & had 100+ health still left.

Upping low end mage damage would give mages the chance to finish somebody off before they started chugging - remember, melee/archer damage hasn't changed. They have to start playing a little risky (or learn to dodge lol) to have a chance to finish the mage off.

Heal 7/ revit 7, stam to health 7 - all fine. Heal kits are fine. Salted meats are way overpowered, though i'm glad they're easy to get - was nothing worse than trade health elixers when 1/2 the server was chugging & the other half had to just hope they didn't need to chug. IMO salted meats should do 100 damage max... even then, you have to realise ANY class can chug a meat & even a streak with crit dmg isn't going to do 120.

I understand how complex the issue is, but to me it looks like the complexity comes from not wanting to upset the PvE balance of just upping low end war damage. Which still confuses me, so many mobs die to 1 level 7 war or a few, the minimum dmg being raised would barely affect exp per hour.

Gustaive

10-19-2007, 11:57 AM

I don't have the info handy atm ... but what about tightening up the variance on streaks? I can't see how that would effect DOT on PvE.

Sightblinder

10-19-2007, 11:59 AM

would be nice, not hugely effective on balancing things of course, but nice all the same.

Gustaive

10-19-2007, 12:01 PM

I understand how complex the issue is, but to me it looks like the complexity comes from not wanting to upset the PvE balance of just upping low end war damage. Which still confuses me, so many mobs die to 1 level 7 war or a few, the minimum dmg being raised would barely affect exp per hour.

I'll chime in from a PvE stance.

I like the variance of war in situations like DI Shadows. I shoot and Arc and sometimes the Degenerates die in one shot. Sometimes I hit for 480 or so and I have to shoot a streak to finish him off. That keeps me on my toes and I get to practice sliding and dodging. It's fun for me.

What if the Streak was tightened up to be 65-80? The effect for me would be the same. I could not kill a shadow in one shot with a strak, I would still have to arc and sometimes arc+streak ... but a more deadly streak could help finish off a melee that has tanked 3 wars and has 14 health left.

*Just me thinking*

Dread_Og

10-19-2007, 12:02 PM

I don't have time to read everything being said here, but I'll explain what I mean by overpowered: A melee/archer has plenty of room for error, a mage has no room for error. So even if a mage and archer can fight for an hour, it's not necessarily balanced, because the archer is doing it with a huge cushion, and the mage is doing it because he's playing perfectly. If you take away some the excessive tanking of melees/archers, the good ones will still have no problem staying alive, but you'll eliminate the ones who rely on the fact that they can screw up horribly and still live.

Some of the melees/archers that stay alive for 30 mins barely know how to throw off any spells. They'll do something stupid like run into 3 bolts and get away with it. Or they get hit by 3 wars and a streak and are able to chug up. It sounds like you can solve this with aegis render of some sort on tinked wands. Let us do enough damage to consistently 3 shot these fools.

Sightblinder

10-19-2007, 12:14 PM

Ok gustaive I get that - I hunt for essences to clear VP too. Darktide has had to cop bad patch after bad patch - by bad patch I mean awesome for white servers & detrimental to darktide - for years now. I'm at the stage where I wish turbine would for the first just say 'ok we know this might annoy the white servers a bit, but hang it all let's help darktide out'.

IMO there'd be grumbling for all of a week before a recall to holtburg baton came out & mage low end damage would be forgotten.

BlackSpit

10-19-2007, 12:40 PM

I have a level 260 UA

my mage is 243

my brothers sword char is 255

I know what I'm talking about.

I also have a level 200 archer but never got to pvp seriously on him. By serious I mean testing out his minor blood thirst bow with new arrows etc etc

I never doubted your knowledge brother.

I'm 2 weeks back from a very long layoff. I played back in 2000 and 2001. All I meant by what I said is that I don't see why any style should necessarily be weaker.

Sightblinder

10-19-2007, 12:42 PM

group pvp can't be balanced when the classes that can hit the easiest, deal the most damage.

Sizlunt DT

10-19-2007, 04:03 PM

I don't know that archers are overpowered. They are competitive, which was our goal.

Right now we are examining mages to see if war magic has lagged behind the other types (and by types I mean melee and archery). We don't want to increase overall damage across the board since mages are highly desirable in many PvE cases (like the Colosseum) but we are examining their PvP damage.

One thing we are looking to do is fix their ability to get lackluster crits. We may change war magic so that crits will always do more damage than a normal hit. That is, if a spell did, for example, 20-80 then a crit would do 81-160 so you don't get a 40 point crit. We are still testing though and as always I make no promises.

Sev~

It kind of amazes me that crits have the chance of doing less than a normal hit at all. Just doesn't seem like a critical hit lol.

Rim

10-19-2007, 04:06 PM

Severlin,
The complex balance of AC PvP is without a doubt something difficult to adjust in any major way without risk of producing other unforeseen balance issue, so rather than address large issues that have possibly far reaching effects, why not address the smaller issues that are obviously over powered and the effects of change can be more easily identified.

1. Meats: 120HP chug is over powered, drop it to 90 for PvP which is the same as a philtre. A player will still be able to heal for a large amount over a short period of time but this change is easy and without any far reaching balance issues. Maybe you can make the chest for the meat unusable by a red player and far enough from any recall/LS point that you can't run there white and open it.

2. Decrease the cast time of vulns. For PvM most players will continue to use rended weapons so vuln cast isn't that much of an issue for PvM. For PvP a mage can't hit a melee that won't attack, so being able to cast vulns faster won't hurt melees before they are attacking. What decreasing the vuln cast time will do is to allow a mage who is being attacked by an unvulned melee the chance to vuln the melee for the fight instead.

3. Increase the range of item debuff spells. Keep the cast time the same as now which allows players who are good the chance to unequip their weapon in time to avoid the debuff, but the range needs to be greater so that players aren't constantly running out of range during the cast not even knowing that they were avoiding an item debuff.

These changes don't make mages more powerful, but they will help to separate the good players from the ones who are just riding their templates.

Monster

10-19-2007, 06:35 PM

Rim I don't follow the logic behind your second idea. A mage only needs to cast one vuln before they start attacking. One of the best times to kill a melee is when they pull out their wand and struggle to vuln. A lot of times I'll just throw a life inept on them to watch them run around fizzling (movement) and getting resisted for the next 2 mins. Faster vulns would benefit melees and gank squads more.

Personally I'm not that big on nerfing chugs because I find I hardly use them in 1v1 situations. I find myself burning through the vast majority of my chugs (99%) when I have multiple targets on me. Although it is true that some players use them excessively in 1v1 situations, the trick is killing the melee before they get to the chug key and I don’t see 30 hp making the difference and it will hurt mages just as much in other situations.

I wouldn’t mind the range on item spells increasing but I never knew this was an issue. 1v1 it’s not that hard to get them loathered before they pull their weapon down, they're not going to run out of range. In group fights I just loather as they come running in, again I don’t see melees running out of range an issue. The almost exclusive way to counter loathering is bringing your weapon down.

As for mage crits, although it is only 5%, if they are made useful then it could be enough to end a prolonged fight. Max end everytime, useful CB crits etc. This could take out melees whose strategy is to act as a human punching bag that you can't out damage and try to play out fights until they get some lucky CB crits at the right time. If they have to worry about 5%, 250 point crits perhaps they will have to revise their strategy. Mages need to a variable like a melees CB instead of the low, consistent, and predictable damage. The best a mage can hope for right now is a rare 225 point high end crit. I don't see the problem with doing to a melee what they hope to do to the mage.

Why archers get so much of a cushion baffles me. Unlike a melee they don't come in to swing, they have the advantage of range yet retain that huge cushion? It's not realistic to hope for 3 high end hits so they don't triple tank, that is if they manage to get hit 3 times in a row. Archers are just going to sit back healing after every war hoping they connect with 2 arrows that happens to be crits and that gives them a good chance to win.

Rim

10-19-2007, 07:20 PM

Monster,
You mentioned 1v1, and the majority of my PvP is group based, which is when mages are really gimped. I don't really see much of a problem with mages 1v1 because even though I'm not a very good 1v1 mage I don't have a problem with most melees and archers 1v1. Of course my perspective is on the quality of the fight and not whether I win or lose the fight. I think that in 1v1 there is a good quality of combat as the game stands right now, but I'm not on a crusade for 1v1 so if the 1v1 folks feel change is needed I'm not going to rain on the 1v1 parade as long as the 1v1 guys don't try to hurt group PvP.

The faster casting vuln is for group PvP because if you have two melees running at you and they're not both vulned you (or at least I) can't do much besides run, and that's no fun for me or the melees.

We don't seem to disagree on the item debuffs so that's good. :D

Dread-Vitae

10-19-2007, 08:01 PM

[QUOTE=Severlin;368919]I don't know that archers are overpowered./QUOTE]

Yeh but we know they are.

Monster

10-19-2007, 08:25 PM

The 1v1 is the most basic kind of engagement, it's when you go out and pvp and only run into one opponent. If you aren’t being exposed to 1v1s or don't see them as the backbone of pvp on DT then you must have a very sheltered play style. Very few players fit that profile, namely Grey Wizard since he is never by himself and will only fight 1v1 until his buddies can get on you. All types of engagements need to be taken into consideration.

The faster casting vuln is for group PvP because if you have two melees running at you and they're not both vulned you (or at least I) can't do much besides run, and that's no fun for me or the melees.
If I see melees struggling to vuln in an attempt to gank me then I quickly dish out some inepts so they struggle even more. If they're already coming at me then I'm going to want to loather before I vuln and if those couple seconds it takes to vuln are critical then I have bigger problems.

Rim

10-19-2007, 09:56 PM

The 1v1 is the most basic kind of engagement, it's when you go out and pvp and only run into one opponent.

That may be what many of the new players on the server have evolved to over the past 2 years, but prior to ToD that wasn't the case at all. My play style is based on pre-ToD group good vs evil play and that is what I enjoy. I don't have any desire to force my preference on other players either other than if I'm fighting someone in game and they want to 1v1 then they won't like what they find with me because I almost always have backup.

However, my point is that I've made three suggestions that won't effect 1v1, won't effect the good players, but may help mages some in group fights when getting targeted by multiple melees.

When a player has to run because he/she has no fighting chance then it isn't any fun for anyone.

Dread_Og

10-19-2007, 10:58 PM

Are you sure you're not a melee? Asking for easier to cast vulns is exactly what a melee who can't dodge would ask for. Since vulning requires putting down the aegis, and the ability to strafe, bad melees are in serious trouble. They will run to the edge of radar, try to cast, run to the edge of radar, try to cast, and so on, so it's a perfect time to shut them down with inepts. Cast time should be what exposes crappy melees to death, not you.

Example: You are fighting 2 melees and a noob mage. If you inept the noob mage right away, then you'll force the melees into wand mode. If they were designed as support melees (meaning they were going to depend on the mage to vuln), then you can victimize them with inepts and you also have a chance to connect with 2 wars if they don't have aegis up.

Basically in any group fight situation against melees/archers who lack solid mage support, cast time should be your biggest ally. If it didn't exist then those melees/archers who normally take forever to cast a few vulns, because they are too scared to get caught up in a cast, will easily cast 10 in a row and land on you. You want to to take away what makes using magic take skill: actually casting it.

As for chugs, good players don't go over board with chugs 1v1, it's simply not an issue. When do good players need chugs? In group fights. The pressure of a 1v1 will not cause you to chug, but the pressure of suddenly having 3 melees on you, will. Maybe if you were one of those 3 melees then I could imagine you complaining about this. I wouldn't mind meats getting nerfed, but don't say it's going to help a mage in group fights, since that's exactly when a mage needs chugs. Melees have no problem acting like *******: If 3 mages are shooting at them, they simply run around. If they tank, then they run to the edge of radar to heal, and come back. It's mages who get hit suddenly by a sword/arrow crit and sticky damage, and find themselves not only needing a chug, but multiple chugs to out heal the damage, since it's not like you can dodge it.

The problem quite simply is mages don't do enough shock damage. Any idiot can avoid getting hit more than 3x by predictable and easy to dodge wars. Excessive tanking is why melees don't die 1v1 or in group fights. I wouldn't mind meats healing for less, but don't say it's going to help mages in groups fights, since mages find themselves needing to chug up just as much if not more in those situations. It will help mages 1v1 when melees try to out heal your damage with meats.

Monster

10-20-2007, 01:19 AM

Rim you’re the one setting yourself up so that you always have help at your side, you’re the one choosing to not expose yourself to 1v1 situations. To not recognize 1v1 as the basis of pvp on DT is absurd. Everything builds off of that.

Dread_Og

10-20-2007, 01:59 AM

This means that some of our ideas for PvP, like spells and strikes that debuff the amount someone heals, really punish mages more than melee. Is fixing this possible? Yes. It's just hard because it will require a rebalance where PvP is less reliant on healing and that also means we would have to buff mage survivability to compensate. If we tried to do this the PvP community will be... resistant to large scale changes like this. Maybe if they understood what we were trying to do they might not totally explode. Another problem with large scale changes like this is that the PvP community would have to live through the inevitable tweaks needed to balance things after such a change.

I'd nerf potions before you nerf healing. I'd like to see how melees stay alive if they can't chug up every time they get low on HP. It's not so much that healing is the problem, since not being able to heal reliably under 140 HP already keeps the skill in check. It's when a melee can screw up, get hit 3x, and come back from it like nothing with meats that causes problems. Potions shouldn't be so powerful that healing with them alone is efficient. They should be a method in which you put yourself back at 140 HP so you can then use kits again. If potions only healed for 50, a melee could still get back in kit range, while also not being able to out heal mage damage through chugging. He'd have to rely on twitch skills to stay alive after screwing up, not chugging alone.

Yes, weakened chugs would hurt a mage against multiple melees, but it wouldn't be too hard to adapt. The benefits of this change would greatly out weigh the costs.

minimafia

10-20-2007, 01:59 AM

Well since rim has been back I've seen him I think 3 times.....

2 times he ran from me on sight 1v1

Other time I fought him + some melee 2v1, killed the melee and he ran.

And I suck :|

Naia-Ra-Sal

10-20-2007, 07:32 AM

Not a PvP here but as an High level Archer i just wanted to add that i think Elemental / Blunt Arrows with just the base damage of AP and Frogs would have been enough.

Rim

10-20-2007, 08:56 AM

Well since rim has been back I've seen him I think 3 times.....

2 times he ran from me on sight 1v1

Other time I fought him + some melee 2v1, killed the melee and he ran.

And I suck :|

Are you the guy who hid, ran and chugged for 15 minutes, recalled then came back and hid, ran chugged for another 35 minutes until our buffs dropped? :D

You're right about one thing... it is likely that I had a friend with me because I enjoy group PvP much more than 1v1. Most players use of meats and the inability to actually kill a very high level conservatively played character 1v1 makes 1v1 very unappealing to me.

Now back on topic...

Do you have any opinions other than Rim sux? :D

Fenping-pong

10-20-2007, 08:33 PM

Why can't the % PvP damage bonus on wands just be increased so that it is half or 2/3 the PvM bonus and see what happens? The tech is already there, and it could always be removed the next month if it was too overpowering. Why not make melees and archers have to adapt from a patch instead of always putting it on mages? Debuffable BPs were taken out, even though that should have been obviously overpowering before it was added.

Django

10-20-2007, 09:13 PM

Why can't the % PvP damage bonus on wands just be increased so that it is half or 2/3 the PvM bonus and see what happens? The tech is already there, and it could always be removed the next month if it was too overpowering.

We were talking about this very thing and threw around those same numbers. The one thing to be noted is that it'll have a very minor effect on damage on its own. But as was mentioned on the other thread there are some effects/changes that could nicely stack in on this and make mage damage more competitive.

I remember it was hard enough to fight a mage vs. mage with 380+ health (well, I only had like 310, this was years ago) let alone trying to defeat someone with 410+ (burning coals would add a lot on top still) who has 25% damage reduction.

In the time I've been working with Sev I've learned if there's one game element about anything he's very interested in it's PvP. I can't count the number of times he's thrown various PvP questions at me.

Fenping-pong

10-20-2007, 10:15 PM

I have 440 (without coals, and its not even max yet) and almost all my wards are minor on my mage. I don't fear getting 2 shot, and a lot of the time if i get hit twice i still have plenty of hp left to take a streak. That isn't how it should be.

I think increasing the hidden loot wand PvP damage bonus would be a easy solution to implement and remove if it was too overpowered. Of course i know nothing about how the code works, but i'd like to think that something that already exists could be adjusted easily.

Glad to hear you guys are working on it at least.

Dread-Vitae

10-20-2007, 11:45 PM

I have 440 (without coals, and its not even max yet) and almost all my wards are minor on my mage. I don't fear getting 2 shot, and a lot of the time if i get hit twice i still have plenty of hp left to take a streak. That isn't how it should be.

Mind you (and this isn't a diss on Fenping), minor wards are a rarity on Darktide, generally everyone has Majors or Minor+Aug

Grimfell-DT-FF

10-21-2007, 06:24 AM

I can't believe after everything we've said on these boards about pvp you completely ignored us and went ahead with your normal screwing pvp patches.

Monster

10-21-2007, 10:35 AM

Whether or not it was an unintended consequence of a cool cosmetic change for the white servers, the new frost bolt kicks ass. It feels good watching melees run into it everytime now that you need non-autistic reaction time to dodge a bolt.

Midgar

10-21-2007, 11:29 AM

Archers are fairly competitive vs mages. It's not super hard to dodge arrows, if it is then get missile d. Only thing wrong with archers is that they are underpowered vs. melees.

Monster

10-21-2007, 11:35 AM

That and they get the attributes to get 460 hp and 390 resist, while sitting behind a 25% aegis when they don't even need to come in to swing.

That's also what makes me wonder if they really have it that tough against melees. I know with 460 hp and good armor it's awfully hard to die to a melee if you know how to manage your hp. You would think they could still play out a fight to win. So by being underpowered they really are just at a slight disadvantage in one type of situation. If they really wanted to they could spec dagger for 4 credits and see how much better it is fighting weeping vs. weeping through shields. Unless they go with that archer build mentioned above then they probably don't have the attributes, what a shame to be such a rediculous tank against a mage and then get knocked around a bit by a melee. Though they could always completely out inept the melee with that temp.

Grimfell-DT-FF

10-21-2007, 02:03 PM

It isn't that arrows are hard to dodge at all, it's that they have the ability to hit harder than wars, on speed, and be able to do it from a distance while still maintaining the aegis benefit a melee got because he had to run in close.

It's mentally retarded.

Fenping-pong

10-21-2007, 03:40 PM

"Mind you (and this isn't a diss on Fenping), minor wards are a rarity on Darktide, generally everyone has Majors or Minor+Aug"

The rarity of minor wards just makes the point stronger, which is why i mentioned it. It is too easy to survive against a mage.

Dread-Vitae

10-22-2007, 12:34 AM

The rarity of minor wards just makes the point stronger, which is why i mentioned it. It is too easy to survive against a mage.

Aye, that was my point also ;)

Severlin

10-22-2007, 10:34 AM

Salted meats are way overpowered, though i'm glad they're easy to get - was nothing worse than trade health elixers when 1/2 the server was chugging & the other half had to just hope they didn't need to chug. IMO salted meats should do 100 damage max... even then, you have to realise ANY class can chug a meat & even a streak with crit dmg isn't going to do 120.

Interesting point, and...

I wouldn't mind meats getting nerfed, but don't say it's going to help a mage in group fights, since that's exactly when a mage needs chugs.

If we were to change Salted Meats, we definitely want to make sure it would end up affecting all players equally. I am not so sure that would be the case since when confronted by multiple mages an enemy can mitigate damage through dodging, but when confronted by multiple melee sticky melee prevents much mitigation. This means that chugs are more important for surviving melee in group fights and nerfing them might actually help melees group versus group.

I don't have the info handy atm ... but what about tightening up the variance on streaks? I can't see how that would effect DOT on PvE.

Interesting. Boosting streaks so long as they do not approach the effectiveness of bolts is an interesting idea.

group pvp can't be balanced when the classes that can hit the easiest, deal the most damage.

In this we agree. Surviving multiple melees where sticky targeting prevents a lot of mitigation except through various healing sources is one reason I mentioned that PvP is very reliant on healing and changing that might be problematic.

The problem quite simply is mages don't do enough shock damage.

That's our point when we mentioned changing crit variance.

It's not so much that healing is the problem, since not being able to heal reliably under 140 HP already keeps the skill in check.

When I say "healing" I mean all forms of healing, not just the skill. With the typical healing regiment players use, whether it be salted meats, kits, or spells 1v1 fights can go on almost indefinitely. If two careful opponents are fighting, I don't think 50+ minute fights are really our goal for PvP. It's healing balance, and the fact that mages are more reliant on healing, that prevents us from messing with this.

I can't believe after everything we've said on these boards about pvp you completely ignored us and went ahead with your normal screwing pvp patches.

I do not know what you are refering to. Is this a reference to the thread where some items cannot be clicked quite as fast as previously?

Whether or not it was an unintended consequence of a cool cosmetic change for the white servers, the new frost bolt kicks ass. It feels good watching melees run into it everytime now that you need non-autistic reaction time to dodge a bolt.

Consider this slightly faster (and cool looking might I add) spell to be an unexpected gift to the mages.

Sev~

Vlad Morbius

10-22-2007, 11:39 AM

If we were to change Salted Meats, we definitely want to make sure it would end up affecting all players equally. I am not so sure that would be the case since when confronted by multiple mages an enemy can mitigate damage through dodging, but when confronted by multiple melee sticky melee prevents much mitigation. This means that chugs are more important for surviving melee in group fights and nerfing them might actually help melees group versus group.Sev~

I know this is a thought for PvP, but if you intend to do this, fix the inconsistency of melee healing first because these are the saving grace of that flawed system!

Grimfell-DT-FF

10-22-2007, 01:17 PM

I do not know what you are refering to. Is this a reference to the thread where some items cannot be clicked quite as fast as previously?

Yes, and the timer you put on switching from wands, to other wands, to shields, etc.

WHY did you put that in without telling us? WHY did you put a timer on chugs without telling us? WHY WHY WHY don't you discuss things with us FIRST before you put them in the game?. and PLEASE tell me you guys are going to undo your corpse lock fix because you didn't even fix it in the first place, you can still lock corpses. May as well put the old way in. I'm sorry but after all the effort myself and others have been making to help PvP then a patch like this comes along, it really frustrates me.

Dread_Og

10-22-2007, 02:14 PM

I know this is a thought for PvP, but if you intend to do this, fix the inconsistency of melee healing first because these are the saving grace of that flawed system!

Hold on there, buddy. Fix the inconsistency of 'melee' healing? If you're referring to kits, then I heal like that as a mage. It's the most consistent and efficient method of healing in the game. I rarely have to supplement the method with chugs, since I can easily heal with 140 HP (I have 455 total). As for 'mage' healing, I only find myself using heal 7 when a melee has done minimal damage before running off to heal. I use stam2hp7 once before relying on kits, since having to cast several revits right away would be counter-productive. Of course it depends on the melee: A bad melee will have me healing with magic, a good melee with have me falling back on kits almost immediately.

If anything weakened potions would hurt mages. When I step out of attack mode to use kits, then my anticipation of melee damage has to be perfect, or I'll fall too low on HP and fail the heal. It rarely happens, but since I'm no longer in wand mode, my only other option is chugging. Weakened potions might make it impossible to out heal melee damage in those situations to get back in kit range.

But despite all of this, I would still support nerfing potions, since I know I could cope with it better than all of the melees who out heal my damage with meats. The amount of chugging they do is part of the reason they end up forcing me to chug. It's such an easy way to heal, and they can get back in my face so quickly, that I have to respond in like.

Rim

10-22-2007, 03:02 PM

Consider this slightly faster (and cool looking might I add) spell to be an unexpected gift to the mages.
Sev~

Huh?

Mages got a new frost bolt?

kinslayer

10-22-2007, 03:22 PM

are you kidding me they added acid now? wtf turbine are you blind? Have you seen anything we have being talking about as far as the new arrows?

Fenping-pong

10-23-2007, 02:33 AM

They also added blunt ones from the colosseum vendor but those won't be out for a while since its closed until the bug is fixed.

"Consider this slightly faster (and cool looking might I add) spell to be an unexpected gift to the mages."

Although I do like this spell and am glad it was added, it sounds like you're STILL adding things to the game that have new dynamics without considering the consequences in PvP. Maybe I just misunderstood what you're trying to get across (I hope).

telepwnsauce

10-23-2007, 07:49 AM

I in know way believe i'm a guru at pvp or even close to the top tier. But saying that i still think i understand the system.

If you do not want to effect PVE damage is it possible to give the weeping wand a buff to just up the lower end when using that wand? you basically could add some buff to the wand that does this.

Also i think before the new melee weapons etc. Magic absorb was vital since we only had weeping weapons. But with the damage upgrade i do not think it is a necessity. Now i would not say remove it, but maybe bring the magic absorb down to 12% (what is currently in affect on the golden shield and shield of perfect light). This will make those 2 quest so much more valuable. If you never had one then you be using a 12% aegis shield. This would also stop Xbower/bow from being as they say "overpowered" by removing the amount of damage they can tank.

Severlin

10-23-2007, 10:01 AM

Although I do like this spell and am glad it was added, it sounds like you're STILL adding things to the game that have new dynamics without considering the consequences in PvP. Maybe I just misunderstood what you're trying to get across (I hope).

No, sadly the fact that the spell travels faster was an unintended side effect of making it look cooler. The upside is that the dev team got to stand in a circle and kick the person responsible repeatedly. We are watching this spell in particular to see if it needs addressing, but a little mage love isn't a bad thing right now.

Sev~

Sizlunt DT

10-23-2007, 10:11 AM

Severlin, what about this thread, the points in which I've not seen addressed yet though they've been made on several different threads:

http://forums.ac.turbine.com/showthread.php?t=36075

Rim

10-23-2007, 10:27 AM

Severlin, what about this thread, the points in which I've not seen addressed yet though they've been made on several different threads:

http://forums.ac.turbine.com/showthread.php?t=36075

I continue to have a difficult time grasping the thought process of many of the Darktide players.

Many players complain that the new arrows do too much damage, and at the same time many players are saying that archers never hit them.

While I think that if arrows hit their target more often that their damage might be over powered, with the players current ability to mitigate damage through movement, I don't see a problem.

I personally would much rather have an archer chose me as a target then a sword character.

telepwnsauce

10-23-2007, 10:29 AM

25% magic absorb needs to be address as well. Don't up the damage so much to overcome this reduce the magic absorb (i play a melee) and this is just retarded in my opinon.

1/4 of the damage of a war is reduced.

Severlin

10-23-2007, 10:39 AM

Severlin, what about this thread, the points in which I've not seen addressed yet though they've been made on several different threads:

http://forums.ac.turbine.com/showthread.php?t=36075

I don't reply to threadjacks so posting in the thread such as this won't elicit a response. I understand that thread exists and will respond to it when I have some time.

Sev~

Sizlunt DT

10-23-2007, 10:40 AM

Rim, I'm sorry, but what the crap are you talking about? That thread linked has nothing at all to do with arrows, who you quoted me in regards to them I can't understand.

Sizlunt DT

10-23-2007, 10:42 AM

I don't reply to threadjacks so posting in the thread such as this won't elicit a response. I understand that thread exists and will respond to it when I have some time.

Sev~

Lol ok? Seriously chuckling at this response IRL. Sorry, I wasn't trying to hijack the thread, I was curious on your ideas of some of that stuff. Since you were paying attention here I figured I'd have asked here. Honestly, if I'd have asked you there, would you have responded? Not to be rude, but somehow I doubt you would have.

Grimfell-DT-FF

10-23-2007, 12:01 PM

Severlin I would really like to have a discussion with you via irc, vent or aim or something. I just want to know where you guys are pullin this stuff from. I know what i'm talking about and I play all 3 classes, and multiple different forms of melee pvp. When the best pvpers in the game are telling you theres a problem, there is a problem. Just talk to us before you put in anymore pvp content please! Thanks.

Severlin

10-23-2007, 12:38 PM

Monster

10-23-2007, 12:46 PM

We are watching this spell in particular to see if it needs addressing, but a little mage love isn't a bad thing right now.
The only players having problems with this are the ones who have problems running into bolts. They basically run in a bee line and when they see a slow moving projectile coming at the them they spaz the z c keys at the last second. Now you just need non-autistic reaction time.

Many players complain that the new arrows do too much damage, and at the same time many players are saying that archers never hit them.
Archer damage isn't so much out of line as the amount of damage they can absorb, especially given how easy war spells are to avoid. That's what makes spectral flame so great.

Sizlunt DT

10-23-2007, 01:10 PM

Let's just say for now that this change was not made to "enhance PvP"

Sev~

Fair enough.

telepwnsauce

10-23-2007, 02:07 PM

Severlin stop ignoring the the magic absorb issue. I think magic absorb of 25% was Necessary when melee could only crit for 100 we had less damage so we needed survivability.

But then you gave us our damage but left in our survivability. You created the right shields just never took away aegis 25%. Perfect light/gloden flame should be the best shields in the game. The quests are not the easiest quests and they should be useful. Reducing aegis shield from 25% to 12% to match those makes sense.

We have our damage now we do not need massive survivability. aegis shield and dark fetish should only be 12% just like the new shields you put in the game.

This fixes melee/archer overpowering advantage. (then do something about there low end damage). Aegis shield quest is a joke if you do it you should only get 12% no al. Other 2 are hard so then you get a 12% magic absorb with some AL (makes sense).

Bow quest is annoying and since they don't get 25% just drop the melee reduction they receive from 10% to 5% for adding it to the bow. Not like it matters.

Regards

I don't think anyone could complain about this change. I'm a melee/archer and I'm even suggesting it because it's ridiculous right now. It would also add some skill lvl back to playing this characters.

Dread_Og

10-23-2007, 03:22 PM

Spectral Flame is just as easy to dodge if you already know how to dodge bolts. It's harder to dodge if you're used to jumping out of the way of a bolt at the last second. I figured this was added to improve PvP since it actually does.

As for the new arrows, I haven't been complaining about them. To me melee/archer damage has never been the problem, but the amount they can tank. An archer has no disadvantage when it comes to dodging, and a melee only has a slight disadvantage by having to come in close. Neither one is justified in being able to tank 3 wars and a streak.

Grimfell-DT-FF

10-23-2007, 07:38 PM

Why would you put that change in the game if it wasn't meant to change pvp?

Why would you put timers on chugs and changing items? Give me a single valid reason.

Tossing

10-24-2007, 04:22 AM

k... Tossing is here... I'll probobly ramble on

The new spell I hope you are fixing the speed of it. You say blah blah blah about how you don't want to effect pvp but you put a new bolt that does just as much dmg but goes faster... just awsome. I for one monster have a huge problem with bolts and I just (recently) got good at dodging bolts. My cast doesn't dodge them automaticly so I have to manuly dodge them. (I see them coming and I dodge). Mages using the slightly speeded up bolt messes up the timing I been working on forever and on top of that the skull is hard to see (by the time you see it coming out its already hitting you)... so we got a faster bolt thats harder to see... that is awsome. thanks turbine.

Its funny that you say you circled the guy responcible and got to kick him. But then you say it is some mage love and it is what we need. When ya it hits melees and archers more but they can stand there and be impossible to kill anyways by healing after everytime they get hit...

I won't be like other players and quit the game for stupid mistakes like this... But faster spells and such messes with timing, that I for one have been working on since I start playing the game. Yes wars are the easiest to dodge but making them harder to dodge is not the way to help mages.. plz slow down the spell... don't really care they are hard to see because peirce is still harder to see then that thing.

I don't know... now that I think of it you guys probobly purposly sped up the spell. (how hard is it to not see how much faster it is)... Then you can see what effect it has on pk ad still be like oh "that was a mistake... we didn't mean to have it faster then normal bolt" and (in your mind) if it helped pvp you'd be like "uh ya we'll keep it that way"

Sorry that was low but you guys always say how much you test/talk about stuff but you make a spell faster on accident? Mabye if you said it was on purpose to see what effect it had on pvp I'd respect it... but come on... I love you guys but what are you doing?

So I'll be the first to say
faster spell = bad idea plz change to be normal speed

p.s. heh and that post was only about that spell... wait till what I have to say about current pvp situation

Fenping-pong

10-24-2007, 04:48 AM

Have you even had the new spell cast on you? The speed does not make it that much harder than a regular bolt to dodge at all. Hell earlier i had 2 people using this on me with 2 other mages casting at me as well, and it didn't give me any more trouble than a regular bolt. Might have actually been easier to deal with since it went by faster and i didnt have to worry about sliding into later in my cast.

Fix your cast, leave the spell alone.

Tossing

10-24-2007, 04:57 AM

I shouldn't have to change my cast because of a spell that shouldn't be there. Making spells harder to dodge is not the way to help mages... this is not a gift...

Hey lets make homing wars while we are at it... you can't dodge them good idea?

telepwnsauce

10-24-2007, 07:00 AM

The spell itself is wonky. You cast it on ankles and it seems to go fast, but other times i casted it and it went even slower it seems then a bolt. But i do love the spells, i don't think it should be changed because it effects your cast tossing you need to adapt.

It's not even close to homing.

Like i said i wanna here Severlin response to what i have suggested about magic absorb which would fix a lot of what ppl are complaining about (not everything mages still need something with lower end war damage). But it would fix a lot of complaints and put some skill back to archer/melee class.

Tossing

10-24-2007, 07:12 AM

You obviously have no clue what I was saying. Who cares about my cast. When you give turbine the ability to mess with the speed of spells its oppening a whole other aspect of the game they could mess up on... War speed is fine why screw with it no one has ever said war speed is too slow.

and your aegis idea is ok... but dmg overall from mages needs some sort of increase in pvp... just yesterday etg tanked 3 wars of mine and he wasn't auged to the element I was using.

telepwnsauce

10-24-2007, 08:03 AM

They said it was an animation glitch which i believe since it moves at different speeds.

I said the Aegis stuff fixes a lot of problems that ppl are complaining about. But mages still need upgrade on lower end damage.

for that i suggest giving the weeping wand a buff that increases the lower end damage on war spells. But most ppl want CB or CS wands with like 10-15% pvp damage or whatever which is cool makes no difference. Only issue i have with that is without an aegis and a ward you can crit someone for 330 with a CB wand. If you up the damage u can crit for 400ish on someone who doesn't have wards (now i know mostly everyone has wards but i don't call that a balance fix Since it puts ppl without the gear a huge disadvantage and they can be 1 shotted).

taking a weeping wand giving it a buff that says (increases the lower end damage of war spells by 20) and boom. For example arc does 100-180. you equip the weeping and spell now does 120-180.

Tossing

10-24-2007, 08:14 AM

like I said.. how hard is it to notice a bolt going faster then another bolt.

kinda wish the skull was bigger... would be easier to see... would look cooler

Rim

10-24-2007, 08:42 AM

I'd rather wait a month until more players have the spell before judging whether it's a problem or not.

I'm not as good at dodging as many of you and had no problem dodging this spell in a pretty large fight last night.

Tossing

10-24-2007, 09:00 AM

I guess...

Dread_Og

10-24-2007, 09:12 AM

I for one monster have a huge problem with bolts and I just (recently) got good at dodging bolts. My cast doesn't dodge them automaticly so I have to manuly dodge them. (I see them coming and I dodge). Mages using the slightly speeded up bolt messes up the timing I been working on forever and on top of that the skull is hard to see (by the time you see it coming out its already hitting you)... so we got a faster bolt thats harder to see... that is awsome. thanks turbine.

Tossing, don't you think that's a problem with your cast? You use an arc-oriented strafe, which isn't surprising, since you started playing so recently. Most players go over board with arcs and it's no surprise that you dodge them so well. There's nothing wrong with this bolt. Maybe you should try diversifying your strafe? If you had a more balanced cast, you'd realize this bolt is great. As it is now arcs are way more useful, because of what you're saying: bolts can be reacted to and dodged so easily. You can't react at the last second and dodge an arc. I think bolts should be the same way.

Dread_Og

10-24-2007, 09:16 AM

Also, do you realize that arcs haven't been around forever? They were added quite suddenly as well and tons of players were complaining about how they were impossible to dodge. That quite clearly isn't the case, although they did become more popular than bolts. Now that bolts have been given some love, it's the same uproar. Players complaining because they aren't used to dodging them yet. But I will say, as somebody who was used to all bolts, this isn't hard to dodge.

Tossing

10-24-2007, 09:22 AM

uh... you can't see the skull. My cast is fine. the animation is not visible. I can react to it if I see it. if they keep it the game I'll adapt. whatever. just saying its not the way to fix mages. like I said... this is not about me and my cast

Dread_Og

10-24-2007, 09:34 AM

I just don't like seeing a skilled mage upset about a spell that improves PvP. This bolt completely exposes melees/archers who depend on running around to dodge. Arcs are easily thrown off by running, and bolts are slow enough that they get thrown off more than they should by a last second direction change. Now you can't simply run without much direction change and expect to dodge.

Could you post an SS of this bolt coming at you? I'm wondering if it's a graphics problem. I see these just fine..

Xeo

10-24-2007, 09:38 AM

Since the devs are listening to this absurd discussion and taking pointers from it, I can't not say that this Sightblinder guy knows absolutely nothing about archers whatsoever.

When a mage is using all exploit casts, it's still extremely difficult to win against them as an archer. Shooting wars before the animation is finished, holding wars and releasing them at will without animations - THAT is horribly unbalancing. Higher damage arrows? Hardly.

Dread_Og

10-24-2007, 09:43 AM

Xeo, do you play DT? I don't think white servers have enough Mushy Kelvartis-type archers running around for you to really see how powerful they are. An archer who knows how to get in a mage's face to land arrows can completely nullify a good cast. And when you combine it with easy triple tanking, it's nearly impossible to beat.

Tossing

10-24-2007, 09:48 AM

pretty much if an archer doesn't want to die... they won't... and they can just wait for a double crit. frustrating as a mage to be hitting an archer more then they are hitting you but you have no chanceto kill them and you are just waiting for them to get a lucky double crit.

Tossing

10-24-2007, 09:51 AM

I'll adapt... I'll have no problem with that. I'm just saying that this is not they way to fix pvp.

telepwnsauce

10-24-2007, 10:07 AM

Once again all this talk..

Lower magic absorb to 12% (this won't make archers invincible anymore)

Give weeping wand a buff to add 20,25,30 i dunno the numbers to the lower end of spells so when u wear this all ur spells get this lower end damage buff. This will only effect PvP and the Damage over time against monsters will not go up.

Severlin

10-24-2007, 10:07 AM

Why would you put that change in the game if it wasn't meant to change pvp?

Why would you put timers on chugs and changing items? Give me a single valid reason.

My job is twofold.

~ Provide compelling gameplay.
~ Protect the servers.

My job sucks when these two things conflict.

Sev~

telepwnsauce

10-24-2007, 10:15 AM

Severlin

usually you give feed back on ideas, can i ask why i have not received any feedback on my ideas?

i don't think melees/archers need 25% magic absorb anymore that was only needed when we couldn't dish out damage. the Perfect light shield and golden flame shield is how magic absorb should be now. that 25% is causing a huge imbalance.

The wand stuff been talked about forever

i think giving the weeping wand a buff that increases lower end war damage covers it though. Since weeping wand will not be used for PvE it does not cause imbalance on the white servers.

Severlin

10-24-2007, 10:30 AM

Grimfell-DT-FF

10-24-2007, 12:35 PM

In this case, you are doing neither. IMO of course. (and many others)

Sizlunt DT

10-24-2007, 02:42 PM

My guess is that the changes somehow addressed duping. Just a guess.

PepaoftheBOLP

10-24-2007, 03:19 PM

robthehand

10-24-2007, 03:26 PM

i would also like to see the spellcraft on the runed wand (the one thats casts magicd yield) to be lowered to 300 from 450 now

its stupid giving everyone free critter spec.

and yes i agree with all of pepas opnions there.

also would like to see rings back to normal

I would also like to see burning coals restricted to non pk only

also full radar range heart rends and increased stam loss for healing.

Grimfell-DT-FF

10-24-2007, 04:35 PM

I think that the futility wand spellcraft should be lowered as well as it completely nullifies specing creature.

Rim

10-24-2007, 04:44 PM

Grimfell-DT-FF

10-24-2007, 05:26 PM

I don't see a problem with burning coals and I don't use them. If someone pops one, just gank them?

Fenping-pong

10-25-2007, 01:52 AM

"i would also like to see the spellcraft on the runed wand (the one thats casts magicd yield) to be lowered to 300 from 450 now

its stupid giving everyone free critter spec."

I use this mainly for PvM, and rarely for PvP. If someone has low creature theyre still going to have a hard time landing inepts if theyre inepted first. It just gives them a better chance at fighting instead of being completely shut down. I dont see why this is a problem as id rather see someone fight then run (which they most likely would) when made useless by inepts.

"and yes i agree with all of pepas opnions there."

ayup

"also would like to see rings back to normal"

I get the feeling this is solely so its possible to one shot people with tugak. Worthless way to kill people.

"I would also like to see burning coals restricted to non pk only"

I dont think ive ever encountered someone using these and im not sure how hard it is to obtain a lot of them, so i could go either way with this comment.

"also full radar range heart rends and increased stam loss for healing."

Full radar harm is the only thing i like and support from your comments.

increased stam loss for healing? I dont see how this would improve pvp. that will just get melees switching to wands more often to revit, which means they will be further away from me and harder to hit with wars. Or theyll just carry stam chugs.

Dread-Vitae

10-25-2007, 02:04 AM

I don't see a problem with burning coals and I don't use them. If someone pops one, just gank them?

I see a problem when someone has 474 hp, and it's obvious the only thing keeping them alive is their burning coal.. generally the people who run around with them on 24/7 (Ogs are the only people who do) are very easy kills though

robthehand

10-25-2007, 09:01 AM

there are a number of burning coal macros out there. where u can get up to 30 coals a day.

the only guild on dt that really uses these are ogs and they use a coal in every pvp encounter.

the stam loss idea i have put forth before. My thinking is this. It will stop the walk backwards with a shield out zig zag BS that is all that is happening right now.

Full range heart rends i like because alot of the time when u are fighting a melee and they are low health they will run right off radar to heal. You should geta chance to heart rend them before they go off radar.

Tugaks need to go back to full strength because it was just to fun taking out people 5 on 1 with a ring. Fun stuff should stay in the game

The Yield wand should be nerfed because why should you get the benifit of spec creature when you dont spend the 8 skill credits? Its actually better then spec creature because i can debuff a persons with spec creature skill while i cant debuff their wands spellcraft. Its overpowering for what it does.

Kabs

10-27-2007, 11:53 PM

Burning coals should not be touched. Very few people use them. The comment about macroes for these should be dismissed due to the fact that Macroing is againt the CoC. Plus if there is such macro it is not released to the public (unless its done by LTXI somehow)

Mage damage should be looked into. Mages crits atleast. Crits should always be larger than the top end damage. If you hit from 100-210, then crits should be from 210-250 or so.

Next, the new war spell is fantastic. If it was an error then it was a GREAT error. Just like the rubber used in Nike's solls was made by mistake, and look how it turned out. I say change mages crits and INCREASE ALL SPEEDS for bolts. Faster bolts will change everything. Dodging for melees and archers will be harder (now its way to easy). Runners from fights do not have to worry about arcs. If a runner gets hit by a war from a distance its mostly gonna be a bolt. But they move so slow and are so easily dodged. Variance of wars would be great but as you said, it would affect PvM. We, the people of DT do not really care about PvM. Maybe just increase bolt speeds on DT? I dont know but please take this into consideration, just look how effective the new cold bolt spell is. Its a HIT on DT.

Now to the whole new arrow debate. Do new arrows hurt mages? Yes they do. That is what missle D is for and dodging. But now step into the shoes of an archer. Archer vs Melee fights always end the same. The melee pulls a shield thus ending the fight basically. The archer is forced to wield the Weeping bow. New arrows now allow the archer to deal a little more damage, however this damage still stinks. The melee will crit for 200, while the archer for 100. Something must be done about archer vs melee. Maybe add a quest that will imbune a weapon with a spell/quality that removed a certain % of a shield? I just know that melee vs archer = terrible.

Aegis in general needs to be looked into. Melees and Archers can tank up to 3 wars spells and a streak or 2 in the worst case. This is terrible. Mages were able to fight back by casting blood loather on weapons, however with the new unenchantable weapons, the only trick mages could use to lower damage is gone.

So to sum the most important things up:

1) Take example of the new war spell that just came into play. Its faster, same damage, but it REALLY helps mages. Maybe make all bolts faster?

2) Archers need help in the Archer vs Melee field.

3) Aegis needs to be nerfed. Most players have full wards + augs. Aegis is basically no longer needed for the good players. If anything a lower from 25% to 12% or w.e is reasonable would be fantastic.

Thanks

QQ1

10-28-2007, 02:30 AM

Faster bolts would be devestating against people who actually have skill and fight up close. It only helps out the people who have no skill and mindlessly fire wars from far away with no actual tactics in positioning or sliding.

Brand_Icefalcon

10-28-2007, 02:40 AM

I see a lot of talk on here about these arrows being over powering in PvP. I have yet to try them in this fashion and am not much of a participator in PvP mainly because it seems every time I try and start a new toon on DT I can't make it 15 mins in the game without getting killed 5 times by someone who probably doesn't even get xp from it. Call me a carebear or whatever but I know the argument with archers not needing to be more powerful I have had this before.
Think about this if you would. With the new character slot I just made a new bow toon and can use deadly arrows at level 40. I don't even think as a mage if I put everything into war at level 40 I could use level VII spells. It seems everything else got a new tear of weapons a couple years back and yes this did include the archers but the ammo never got updated with it.
I do agree with the lowering of the bonus down from 25% but I think if you lower the arrows down you will loose the effect on PvM that I think was needed. I play on harvestgain and have a 275 Mage, 233 Sword/Staff and 225 Xbow. All of these have there own special uses and exel in different parts of the game. I think they are doing the best they can to keep both sides happy with PvM and PvP unless they manage to put different items on DT than the rest of the servers we are just going to have to deal with some unplanned side effects of trying to satisfy both with the same item.
Of course this is all IMO and who knows maybe they should shut down all the servers besides DT then it wouldn't be so hard to balance between the two styles of fighting.

QQ1

10-28-2007, 02:59 AM

I've mostly PKed on a mage over the years but I hopped on my archer, no wards, no majors, low level with a half tinkered weapon and I wrecked mages with normal deadly arrows like I had been pking as an archer all my AC years. Archers are so easy to dodge with and so easy to deal damage with. I find the issue with archers vs mages is missile d. On the white servers missile d is pretty much useless. There is no need for it on a mage in PvM, and even if you ONLY pvp there are so few people that the one archer that pks isn't even worth training missile d for. Because of it, they take an already, IMO, easymode class and make it godlike. I used to play a bow as my main back then. This was in ayan days right when weeping bows came out and even then I felt pking on an archer was easy. AR CS and CB bows somewhere made the transition from being worse than a weeping to better, I guess with the damage bonus at ToD maybe, but they were already better than mages from my view before that. The newer arrows were completely unnecessary. The reason you think that archers needed an increase is because I find that compared to the overall amount of PKs, atleast on white servers, very few are archer, and it just so happens that those few can't fight worth anything. When an archer actually gets some skill it's like putting a bazuka(archer) vs a squirt gun(mage). Archers are too strong for the people who actually know how to play their class.

The other huge reason I find is that now adays all the archers go 100 endur 100 coord 100 quick or strength or something like that and leave their focus self and life skill so low it's practically futile for them to even attempt vulning a target. I cast my vuln on an archer, then sit back, go make a sandwich, take a quick nap, come back and the archer is still trying to land a vuln on me. On white servers, dueling is the main form of PvP and there's the curtesy that you wait for both people to vuln before attacking. If this wasn't the situation then archers would lose from the start. They would need to put heavy attributes into casting to land on mages and then would lose out on some of their massive health and it would be a little bit more balanced. Then again, if you go back to fighting people without curtesy and waiting for them to vuln you, then they just run away and never attack you. It is nearly impossible for a mage to kill a target that is running away from them. For this reason it will be impossible to balance PvP to any satisfying level.

Melees and Archers run away and a mage can never kill them. Melees and archers get decked out with 100 endurance, wards, majors, spec magic d(with all those credits they get from not spending a ton like mages do with war magic), and magic absorbing gear and the mage may as well uninstall.

The best way to 'balance' pvp as well as possible is to drop the massive damage melees and archers can do back to a steady even in amount, possibly decreasing damage some and decreasing crit chance some, but still keep in the magic absorbing items melees use to keep mages from doing massive damage, and then actually put in something that is worth fighting over so that people don't/can't just run away when they think they're going to lose. OR you would need to increase the damage mages do so that a melee/missile can't take 3 wars (excluding them also resisting spells) and practically be invincible by lowering the effect of aegis and magic absorbing items. The thought of the anti aegis wands is a good idea. Throw on a CS imbue with 9 tinkers of aegis lowering salvage to lower a shield's magic absorbing abillity by 90%. This would even things out some. 90% might be too much, maybe something like 6% per tink to do ~55% lower.

Kabs

10-28-2007, 09:57 AM

Faster bolt will prevent people from fighting face to face?

The only way to kill a good mage in a mage vs mage fight is to go up in their face. The damage will still be the same. You will still be able to tank 2 wars and a streak no problem (unless your template is gimp).

Is still extremely easy to dodge this new bolt. Only thing it does is it actually makes people attempt to dodge. Like I posted before, now to dodge a bolt all you have to do is spam c,z in the last second and you are safe. Faster bolts will prevent this from happening, and will actually make melees and archers try to dodge.

Grimfell-DT-FF

10-28-2007, 12:14 PM

QQ from your post it is obvious that your sig is a lie and you don't play DT. I agree with some of your points but your overall logic is flawed. They should not be balancing pvp for white world dueling, they need to balance it for DT group fights.

Dread-Vitae

10-28-2007, 11:54 PM

I'm pretty sure that QQ guy is Exp.passup.system from VN.

He basically macros under people for RL$, so I doubt he would have a huge amount of experience in PvP..

telepwnsauce

10-29-2007, 08:21 AM

Yes Big crits are annoying because ppl say it takes part of the skill out of the way. Same time crits are needed because if the damage is consistent then no good mage would ever die.

If i have weeping bow right now against a good mage it's basically an impossible fight. I can crit for a max of 120 and thats only if i crit. So i have to crit 2-3 time then do 100 damage before Stam to health 3/7 goes off. It's impossible any good mage on DT can dodge arrows when they need to. once they get really low health most of them dodge without a problem. I think archers can just absorb to much damage from mages thus making it the longest fights in game. Probably longer then mage vs mage.

So if you low big damage crits mages basically will not die. Also if you complain archer is overpowered then get missle d. Maybe they should give all chars the choice of having trained missle d/melee d/magic d (when they start the game i dunno).

If you have trained missle d an archer probably has to use half power to shoot now if they can't chain gun and have to use a weeping bow they are completely irrelevant. I get that white server players don't have a use for missle D. If this is the case then you shouldn't complain, you have it within your power to make archers a joke by training missle d and you don't. So don't suggest ways to fix it. Also why adjust archers for white servers if they say there barely any that pvp? that like changing something to suit 10 players then to suit 400 that in itself isn't balance.

The only problems with PVP are (that needs fixing to be balanced):

1) Mages need better low end damage. (there variance is massive)
2) aegis needs to be reduced by a tinked wand .. or just drop aegis from 25 down to 12. Making the magic absorb/al shields the best in game. Why make Aegis shield best in game when it's a joke to get.
3) some kind of land control that you promised for a least 2 years (this is just a wishlist one though)

with the first 2 issues fixed, everyone will be competitive and that is best you can get to balanced. Archers will be able to kill and they will be able to be killed due to lack of absorb. Melee will be able to kill and be killed due to lack of absorb. Mage vs Mage will not last forever due to 140 low end bs and tank 2 and a streak.

To be brutally honest DTers have brained stormed over this stuff for a while we put ideas up that where shot down and then we revamped these idea so they would not affect the PvE worlds really at all. So we've been pretty sympathetic. So please when you make your suggestions take our side in account as well since we did the same for you.

EDIT - also whoever said archers can non land vuls if they have 10/10 focus self is incorrect i have no problem landing vuls with my char and he is 10/10 but currently auging is focus so he is now 20/10 but when he was 10/10 with max life magic (major life) he has no issues at landing a vul) i have even ringed ppl with max magic d.

Regards,

Tossing

10-29-2007, 11:21 AM

(just copied this from my other thread thought it went good here)

I think if you upped all war melee and missle dmg but lowered the ammount of crits and how much they do the game would take alot more skill then just waiting for crits. also lower ammount people resist wars to a minimal. people would actualy have to dodge. Mabye for melee v melee would suck but those kind of fights is not what is keeping the game alive.

examples...

Mage v Mage
crits (when they do more then 240(rare for me)) make the mage 2 shotable... why not make it so mages always die in 2 wars. So people have to dodge instead of hoping they don't get crit and resist. Less hoping/luck in mage v mage = better imo

Mage v Melee
up melee dmg a bit but lower crit chance to minimal. there really should never be double crits. would make it so melees have to keep dodging and slowly lower the mages stats. Melees atm suck. They give tons of time for the mage to get thier stats up. Good melees stay close and slowly lowers the mages stats so they can't keep up with the dmg being delt with them the mage wil eventualy die. But those kind of melees are rare. Melees now can let mages get stats up because all they need to do is wait for their outrageous burst of crits that kills the mage instantly.
Mages have no kind of burst dmg against melees. right now a crit doesn't even mean anything on a melee from a war. what max of 200 dmg and that is super rare. thats not even half of their health. if you make mages even less dependent on crits and raise their dmg so melees always die in 3 wars mabye 2 and a streak (rare mabye if the mage crits(which should be super rare imo)) it would make the melee actualy need to dodge. Making the melees that are actualy good kill mages and the crappy melees (all melees atm except a few) not have a chance against good mages. Getting hit every war and backing up and healing will never kill a good mage because they'll just get stats up while you back up.

Mage v Archer
pretty much the same. Raise archer dmg... Lower the ammount they crit by a bunch. Archers should die to 2 wars and a streak every time becuase they don't have sticky attack to worry about. Archer should have to slowly lower the mages stats. Not sit back and wait for the double crits.

WHAT now archers and melees have to play like they should? skillfully against a mage?

Too bad all this is too much to ask.

Melee v Melee and Archer v Archer and Archcer v Melee is a math problem atm any ways... who crits more and has better armor and weapon wins...

robthehand

10-29-2007, 02:05 PM

burning coals def need to be nerfed. Here the secret to ltx them, turn on ltx and you navigator to run around by candeth only killing magma golem exarchs.

pretty simple.

when u get 5 recall to candeth and hit start again on your ltx.

voila your a 474 health guy.

these need to be nerfed right away.

always attended of course.

telepwnsauce

10-29-2007, 02:17 PM

I say wait for them to make other pvp changes first

the wands/etc

then see if they need to be nerfed (or make magma golems spawn rate lower)

Jida

10-29-2007, 02:36 PM

There are 3 really good spots for the golems where they spawn more often than other spots.

If someone wants to take the time to collect these I am not against them getting the benefit.

I have yet to ever get even a single coal on any of my characters,... guess I never saw the point.

Never used a beer either *shrug*

robthehand

10-29-2007, 04:07 PM

jida obviously your not fighting for any high level content on darktide if your not using beers or coals.

This is a problem for people who are playing darktide at a high skill level.

Jida

10-29-2007, 04:37 PM

I do fight top end people even though I die a lot.

When I am on Jida I don't die as often as I do on Crotch Wart.

I just never saw a reason to try to scramble for every possible advantage and try to grab it.

I prefer to just fight and not care.

For the 'high level' crowd of l33t uberness I am sure there are many a tear stained blankeys being hugged fro comfort,... for me and many other though it is not even part of the game.

robthehand

10-29-2007, 08:52 PM

most of the people actually pvping and not running around screwing around actually do look for advantages

Jida

10-30-2007, 12:14 AM

I beg to differ.

There is a subset of people that are always trying to chase the power curve and they rarely notice the bottom 90% that don't care like they do.

Kabs

10-30-2007, 01:39 AM

I agree with Jida... not everyone uses beers to fight. Yes its kinda nice and is an advantage... but its not a must. I may not be the best at PvP but I do get my share of kills. Honestly the poeple who use coals, or the beers are relying on template too much. Nothing funnier than somone to drink beers in the middle of a fight... or multiple times just to have that extra HP.

And becuase some people feel the need to hunt the golems, let them. All the lvl 275's you see got there by UCM or having UCM vassals. So who cares if people UCM or ACM (attended) the coals. Being 275 is a huge advantage to poeple who are 200.

But who cares about coals now, this is such a minor problem (if it is even a problem). War damage, and aegis needs to be fixed cuase its rediculous.

Dread-Vitae

10-30-2007, 02:00 AM

Kabs yes the people who use coals are terrible at the game, but using coals allows them to survive WAY longer than they possibly should.

But coming from a former ally of Og, the guild who probably have lifetank setup to use a coal for them while they macro it's no surprise you have no problem with them.

robthehand

10-30-2007, 08:44 AM

yah bleeds your guild and its allies are the main users of burning coals. Im not suprised you are against them.

Also Jida I have never even seen you ig, what hours are you playing darktide?

Kabs

10-30-2007, 09:01 AM

Actually, i never used coals in a fight.... they were our allies when "Dark Rocx" was a guild. Back when i was in Dark Rocx none of use used coals. I have like 9 in my chest from like the 1st day they came out.

Im no longer allied with OG cuase im in a new guild, however the ones i knew/talked to were pretty cool.

The only time I would use a coal is to portal into a camped drop and attempt to ring. I survive mage vs mage no problem without beers/coals.

I really didnt fight people with 470+ hp. Maybe if i saw them more often I would find it a problem, however like I said before, there are way more important things to fix. If they fixed war damage then the 470+ ppl would die even faster, and 470hp melees would die in 2 wars and a streak or 2

Jida

10-30-2007, 11:22 AM

I generally play in the mornings (7-9 PST) and then evenings (8-10 PST).

On as Crotch Wart mostly nowadays. I might play Jida again once I hit 200 on Crotch.

It was sad day when Crotch past Jida in levels :(

I would be against raising damage to balance out people with 460+ health.

It would be preferable to add a new spell called "Base" and it wiped out everything added to your health except for your buffed Endurance.

So if you have +10%/+8% from gems, coals, +30/+25/+25 items, imbues on jewelry, etc. they all get wiped off for the duration of the spell. The only thing that would effect your total health at that point is your endurance buff along with what XP you put into health.

robthehand

10-30-2007, 12:45 PM

that wipe spell is a pretty good idea actually, I would change it though so it would bring people down to the regualar 447 health you can get on a 100 endur mage.

Wipe would wipe coals, beers, otholi foods, penguin items.

it would only affect pks so npks wouldnt have to worry either.

great idea.

Jida

10-30-2007, 01:16 PM

Yeah but it won't happen :)

The way I would see it,

Life spell, level 5 - unique and either quest based or from chests (like rings and walls and etc.)

Land it and for the duration of the spell the persons stats are lowered to base.

They can dispell or otherwise if they get out of the PK timer.

That way, it is not just some kind of omega doom spell that everyone will have day 1 ;)

It would require a little work (like Tugak) and it can be resisted, needs life magic and can go away.

The balance is that for standard PvM your stats can be buffed up. For PvP fights you have to cast it and land for it to take effect.

robthehand

10-30-2007, 03:55 PM

yah would be a great little addition to life or creature magic.

Jida

10-30-2007, 05:43 PM

You could it life or critter I suppose although Life makes more sense.

The more I think about it the more I think it is a good fix overall.

Dread-Vitae

10-31-2007, 01:01 AM

Would be annoying in group fights when everyone is getting dispelled... just increase the damage on war spells

Tossing

10-31-2007, 01:40 AM

not everyone is geting despelled lol... only the people with way too much health... but why have the stuff to add health and such if you can just get dispelled

Jida

10-31-2007, 02:21 AM

Not being dispelled. It is like an inept.

Those spells are still on you, they just don't have any effect.

I think that raising war damage is bad. I think that we have too much health as it is.

Giving people the option to debuff their health buffs is a good way to go.

Tossing

10-31-2007, 03:08 AM

raising war dmg is bad?

I think it might lead to over powered crits... but mages do need an up in their average dmg

Dread-Vitae

10-31-2007, 03:23 AM

I mean, if you add a debuff for their health everyone will just dispell more than they already do..

Jida

10-31-2007, 10:42 AM

If you up war damage you are going to,

1) Start to the arms race again.
2) Open up a huge risk to balance issues.

Raising damage is not the way to raise skill in PvP. Adding another mechanic where people could (through skill) overcome it is the better solution.

The second solution would be to look at melee and missle damage and balance it out to what War Magic does now.

Tossing

10-31-2007, 01:52 PM

no we want the fights to be faster... lowering dmg is deff not the key. mage dmg needs to be increased so melees and archers can't tank 3 wars at least... and at least mages die in 2 wars and a streak for sure. I think we all agree that melees and archers should be dead if they get hit with 3 wars. Why not make it happen...

EDIT: I really think mages should die in 2 wars archer in 2 wars and a streak and melees in 3 but I really don't think it'll happen

Jida

10-31-2007, 02:26 PM

So if you gave people the option of lowering everyone's health *if* they use +health items then wouldn't that speed things up?

Also, wouldn't you as a mage with now lower health be in really bad shape against melees and archers?

As an option you may need to look at all damage if you implemented a spell like this.

Tossing

10-31-2007, 02:46 PM

um I don't use colls. not many people do... that is not a problem. that can be an issue later.

when I have 439 health and I can tank 2 wars and a streak pretty easily... something is wrong

Jida

10-31-2007, 03:39 PM

How did you get to 439 health?

Are you using a +10% or +8% gem? Are you using a +15/+25/+30 health item?

Imbued item for more health?

If I assumed that you had +8% health aug, +25 health item and nothing else then you would lose,

439 -(.08) -25 = 379

Would you tank 2 wars and a streak at 379 health?

Now if you are not using health items, or a different combo then my question still stands.

It is not that War Magic needs to be addressed and raised, it is that all defenses including health need to be looked at.

Sizlunt DT

10-31-2007, 03:56 PM

It is not that War Magic needs to be addressed and raised, it is that all defenses including health need to be looked at.

Jida, what do you think is more likely to be implemented as a change?

The dev's increasing war damage to reflect defenses and health in the current state of the game

or

The dev's nerfing Health and defenses.

Lol, if they did the second option, all of the white server guys would quit, every single one of them. So it's great to delineate the situation as you have, but it is not even remotely realistic that the problem will be addressed that way.

Dread-Vitae

10-31-2007, 05:15 PM

Jida you're not listening; if you add a debuff that powerful, every single person will carry an awakener and a stack of gems of stillness - it would make PvP even worse.

Besides, who wants to have to throw two spells on people in group fights when what you really want to do is get in and hurt them as soon as possible.

It's cute you're having some ideas for PvP but you should probably leave this one up to the pros

Jida

10-31-2007, 05:26 PM

Not asking for them to nerf health for NPK.

The spell would only work on PvP servers.

If you lowered defenses for PvP you can use other mechanics rather than making armor lower or reducing aegis.

You can ad dnew debuffs, you can add % additions to AR/Rending for weapons that reduce the armor level for PKs, etc.

I am stating that raising war damage is bad because we have raised everything and nothing was fixed. Raising war damage would have a ripple effect all the way down.

I am not against raising the low end damage even though that effects PvM. It was stated that this could not be done due to DoT in PVM.

If you raised war damage, even a little, you have to look at a lot of factors.

You cannot just look at 2 maxed out guys dueling with augs and majors.

You also cannot just look at 3 melees attacking 1 mage or 5 mages fighting 5 other mages.

For the record, I think that all of the additions to the game for PvP simply distracted all of us from the glaring issues at hand.

All of the flip flopping of power simply makes you reroll.

There are others that stick with a template regardless.

What I see and find is that increasing things is not the solution. It never has been.

If you had all of your helath extras stripped for 6 minutes then war damage starts to look just fine.

It is not the damage, it is the defense against the damage and/or the output potential given to melees and archers.

Dread-Vitae

10-31-2007, 05:49 PM

If Devs want to go with a health nerf to fix PvP balance, they should just make the health gems NPK only which would make sense seeing as it should have been made this way in the first place.

TOD and preorder was the thing that basically tipped the scales to make melees nearly invincible against mages and we all knew it would happen - but Turbine didn't listen then, and I doubt they will listen now.

If this change was made, an NPC where you can turn the 8% aug in for XP and an Aug gem back

Jida

10-31-2007, 11:59 PM

Agreed.

I was on the front lines against all of the defensive upgrades and health additions going in *if* they could also be used in PvP.

I think what I am hearing from everyone is that someone should die in 2 average war hits plus a meaty streak.

I am also assuming that this takes into account max 10/10 magic defense with an aegis, right?

I would think that this would mean that mages would always die in 2 wars since they have no aegis effect.

So if melees and archers with max magic defense can take 2 level 7 wars and 1 streak (good ones, not low ones for all) and mages can take 2 wars is that balance?

Dread-Vitae

11-01-2007, 12:40 AM

It should balance out to be like a 50% chance to die in 2 wars on a mage, and a 50% chance to die in 2 wars + streak in my opinion.. it would make it too annoying to fight odds if you were pretty much guaranteed death from 2 wars.

Tossing

11-01-2007, 02:16 AM

I don't like the 50% chance to die in 2 wars. I don't know... because if Iwas fighting 3 mages... but I keep hitting 1 mage twice but he won't die but the I die in 2 wars the first time I get 2 hit I'd kinda be mad the more for sure things stuff like... if your hit with 2 wars and your are a mage you die end of story... the less luck it akes to kill someone. Less luck = More skill imo...

so either you die in 2 wars for sure... or you die in 2 wars and a streak for sure...

Jida

11-01-2007, 02:35 AM

Keeping in mind that since mages do not have aegis they will die sooner than melees or archers.

AynEziert

11-05-2007, 09:51 AM

Interesting point, and...

If we were to change Salted Meats, we definitely want to make sure it would end up affecting all players equally. I am not so sure that would be the case since when confronted by multiple mages an enemy can mitigate damage through dodging, but when confronted by multiple melee sticky melee prevents much mitigation. This means that chugs are more important for surviving melee in group fights and nerfing them might actually help melees group versus group.

Interesting. Boosting streaks so long as they do not approach the effectiveness of bolts is an interesting idea.

In this we agree. Surviving multiple melees where sticky targeting prevents a lot of mitigation except through various healing sources is one reason I mentioned that PvP is very reliant on healing and changing that might be problematic.

That's our point when we mentioned changing crit variance.

When I say "healing" I mean all forms of healing, not just the skill. With the typical healing regiment players use, whether it be salted meats, kits, or spells 1v1 fights can go on almost indefinitely. If two careful opponents are fighting, I don't think 50+ minute fights are really our goal for PvP. It's healing balance, and the fact that mages are more reliant on healing, that prevents us from messing with this.

I do not know what you are refering to. Is this a reference to the thread where some items cannot be clicked quite as fast as previously?

Consider this slightly faster (and cool looking might I add) spell to be an unexpected gift to the mages.

Sev~

nice turbine!
good reply!
So finaly you'r not that bad

AynEziert

11-05-2007, 09:56 AM

Grimfell Stop acting like You know everything.

everybody are'nt agree with you.

Grimfell-DT-FF

11-06-2007, 05:09 AM

I do know everything. Silly noob.

AKWP

11-06-2007, 05:52 PM

Sev, are you a good pk?

Jida

11-07-2007, 07:43 AM

H1Z mUlzzz R |-|1gH3r t|-|4n y3r m4iN!!!

kthxl0l!!!!

JayKid

11-16-2007, 07:11 PM

The change that addressed duping was the fix to not allow items to be dropped in corpses. People crashed landblocks by dumping hundreds of items on corpses then having the corpses decay.

The change that addressed corpse locking is the change that has effed up the switching of weapons, wands, etc, and added that .5 second timer. They added the timer because people would corpse lock by closing the body using R and clicking on the "close corpse" button on the actual body at nearly the same time. With the timer now, it's impossible to do that. That's their "fix" for the corpse lock bug.

Severlin - Do these three things and PvP will be great again.

Change Archer aegis from 25% to 12%. Archers and xbowers don't need to have that much extra absorption when they're able to stay at a distance from a target.

Lower the Acid and frost arrow's/quarrel's damage a bit. 280 crits on al 454 base armor, while being able to tank 3 wars? That's not balanced.

Up war variance to 130-180 AT LEAST. We need some sort of variance upgrade. I know you're worried about pvm, but please, we need this. Just try implementing it into the game. If it's majorly unbalancing, change it, but I really believe it won't be. Archers and melees will still be dominant on the same creatures they're dominant on now. Mages will be slightly better at killing things they're already good at killing.

If you did those 3 things, you would be making significant strides in making us happy and improving the quality of pvp. And please, don't just say you're thinking about it. You've been saying that for years. We want results, quickly, or we won't be satisfied.

Do you not have majors? I've never played with an xbower, but my archer, with maxed out CB bow with new frost arrows hits 200ish on CB crits to the head and 160ish to the rest of the body. This is againt someone with 450+ AL armor (not hard to get) and major frost ward. You must not have major ward or got hit in a different spot. These are the lowest numbers an archer will hit for though... HOWEVER, they need to be the numbers that they are based off of. Why? Because it's not very difficult to find high AL armor and a major ward... so if you base archers being overpowered on ****** armor and no wards, well, then it's your fault you have bad armor.

I assume acid arrows (which I have yet to use) are similar damage and negligibly higher.

CS frost bow crits for roughly 75ish and 90-95ish on head/foot/hand crits against the same armor/wards I mentioned above.

Match that with the fact that a mage with missile can easily dodge arrows from a bowyer because of the slower speed and the fact that for a CB to kill you need two crits in a row, not very common on a weapon that can be dodged so easily like war bolts are dodged. But if you get lucky enough? Well, it's VERY doubtful that they are both to a single armor spot... so let's be fair and go with 160 nd 205 for the two crits.

That's 365ish... many mages still have near 100 hp left. Depending on their stam and what not, still recoverable.

Sure, a good archer can then get in and land the other arrow shots and probably get the mage to be on the defense until they can get a few more lucky strikes, but overpowered?

I think not.

Now, take ****** armor and no wards... yes, incredibly.

War damage is easy to protect against. Wards, prots, aegis. PHysical damage isn't so easy... you need good armor, some don't have that. But I hate people spewing the BS that archers are overpowered cuz they got hit for so hard. Get better armor. A good mage behind good armor and wards is VERY hardy to kill.

Now, does that mean archers are easy to kill? No. I think they can stay alive easily as well...

So really it is still important for them to maybe drop some aegis affect down or up mage damage. However, I think archers are fine.

They are only overpowered if your armor sucks, otherwise, they are pretty balanced. Hell, I'd say against super good armor and what not, underpowered slightly still.

Missile D, good dodging ability, high AL single spot pieces and major wards... CS, you need 5 crits at an average of 80ish (between the single and double spot hits) to get close to kill someone off... or at least close to 5 in a row. Just as rare is the CB double crit, one needing to be in a single spot. Remember, this is against someone who is competent at dodging, even from close, and has missile, severely hindering the archer (I won't even get in to how you can have horrendous missile D and still screw an archer, while even maxed magic D or melee D does basically nothing in PvP... missile is way to overpowered in PvP and underpowered in PvM, but whatever).

atbestvague

11-17-2007, 01:57 AM

Missile D doesn't help that much. All it means is that archers just can't go speed. It's not like they can't hit you, though.

It helps a bit. More speed = more arrows fired = more damage
Less speed = less arrows fired = less damage

atbestvague

11-17-2007, 02:18 AM

War Spec , Missile Spec, Resist Spec
Frost Aug + Major Frost Ward
Acid Aug + Major Acid Ward
Major Impen sollies or 490+ covy 2.0 shoes
Major Armor + Scarab Shell or Armor Other Incantation

Do you use all of these things? Would you consider trying them if not?
I don't feel like the damage is too high if you temp/equip yourself properly.
It seems to be just right with the best setup defensively. If they did the right damage to someone not temped against it, than anyone who DID temp against it would be invincible.

I understand many people auged their resists long ago and now that these two damage types are most important you are stuck. THAT imho is the problem.

You should be able to throw away your resist augs and replace them. No switching in and out or anything, just let people choose over again.

You, TURBINE, made dramatic changes to the game in regards to what dmgs matter most, and it is INEXPLICABLE why you would let your OLDEST players, the most loyal ones, be screwed by it, while a year old newby like me just hadn't gotten to that point in my series of aug gems until after graveyard was added.

PepaoftheBOLP

11-17-2007, 02:34 AM

Do you not have majors? I've never played with an xbower, but my archer, with maxed out CB bow with new frost arrows hits 200ish on CB crits to the head and 160ish to the rest of the body. This is againt someone with 450+ AL armor (not hard to get) and major frost ward. You must not have major ward or got hit in a different spot. These are the lowest numbers an archer will hit for though... HOWEVER, they need to be the numbers that they are based off of. Why? Because it's not very difficult to find high AL armor and a major ward... so if you base archers being overpowered on ****** armor and no wards, well, then it's your fault you have bad armor.

I assume acid arrows (which I have yet to use) are similar damage and negligibly higher.

CS frost bow crits for roughly 75ish and 90-95ish on head/foot/hand crits against the same armor/wards I mentioned above.

Match that with the fact that a mage with missile can easily dodge arrows from a bowyer because of the slower speed and the fact that for a CB to kill you need two crits in a row, not very common on a weapon that can be dodged so easily like war bolts are dodged. But if you get lucky enough? Well, it's VERY doubtful that they are both to a single armor spot... so let's be fair and go with 160 nd 205 for the two crits.

That's 365ish... many mages still have near 100 hp left. Depending on their stam and what not, still recoverable.

Sure, a good archer can then get in and land the other arrow shots and probably get the mage to be on the defense until they can get a few more lucky strikes, but overpowered?

I think not.

Now, take ****** armor and no wards... yes, incredibly.

War damage is easy to protect against. Wards, prots, aegis. PHysical damage isn't so easy... you need good armor, some don't have that. But I hate people spewing the BS that archers are overpowered cuz they got hit for so hard. Get better armor. A good mage behind good armor and wards is VERY hardy to kill.

Now, does that mean archers are easy to kill? No. I think they can stay alive easily as well...

So really it is still important for them to maybe drop some aegis affect down or up mage damage. However, I think archers are fine.

They are only overpowered if your armor sucks, otherwise, they are pretty balanced. Hell, I'd say against super good armor and what not, underpowered slightly still.

Missile D, good dodging ability, high AL single spot pieces and major wards... CS, you need 5 crits at an average of 80ish (between the single and double spot hits) to get close to kill someone off... or at least close to 5 in a row. Just as rare is the CB double crit, one needing to be in a single spot. Remember, this is against someone who is competent at dodging, even from close, and has missile, severely hindering the archer (I won't even get in to how you can have horrendous missile D and still screw an archer, while even maxed magic D or melee D does basically nothing in PvP... missile is way to overpowered in PvP and underpowered in PvM, but whatever).

hi, do you play dt, do you know who i am?

i have a very nice suit. I get crit for 280 by a certain xbower in my base al 454 gaunts, with major armor, niffis ink house buff, major frost ward, and the colloseum ring bonus +25 armor. I can't even kill that xbower in 3 wars. is that balanced? No.

archers and xbowers are overpowered because they have the best survivability of any class, and have the highest crits of any class.

also, just read this again - "Match that with the fact that a mage with missile can easily dodge arrows from a bowyer because of the slower speed and the fact that for a CB to kill you need two crits in a row, not very common on a weapon that can be dodged so easily like war bolts are dodged. But if you get lucky enough? Well, it's VERY doubtful that they are both to a single armor spot... so let's be fair and go with 160 nd 205 for the two crits."

Do you even know what you're talking about? You're aware your arrows can be set so they fly through the air at a rate faster than an arc and can be set to have either bolt-like or arc-like tracking? This makes arrows very difficult to dodge up close and at mid range, if the archer has any idea what he's doing. Apparently, you don't know how to play an archer, yet still had the urge to come post on this thread, and state your completely oblivious viewpoint. Thanks for the input!