KroLeXz
12-17-2003, 05:27 PM
I didn't get to post this earlier, I'm sure a very good of mine would have wanted it to end up here, I agree on everything he says.
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Hi everyone. I'd like to share some thoughts about the current state of the Darktide server since not many of the inhabitants spends time voicing our oppinion in a manner you guys can relate to.
FYI. I am currently playing on the Darktide server, and I've done so for around 3 years. All this time, I've played my mage, and my 2 melee characters (a dagger character who later became an archer, and an axer).
Throughout the post, I'd like you to keep in mind, that when I talk about PvP - I'm talking about PvP on Darktide. Not going red on any other server, and especially not going 'pink'.
For the last couple of patches, there's been added an increased amount of "PvP-related" content. PvP is not the same as it was 6 months ago.
Before this 'new' wave started, tinkered weapons made suddenly made the relatively useless melee characters viable - giving them a real chance to compete with mages. But these new opportunaties didn't come free. To compete, you'd have to aquire (and successfully imbue) a weapon - and then you could work on improving it with Granite / Iron / Velvet / Brass. This, as you might know, took a lot of work - but it was well worth it.
Suddenly, we saw a whole new balance between the classes on Darktide. Archers were now shooting through the mages banes. Melees were doing the same to a certain extend. Mages still had the upper hand in the one on one situations - but the archers and melees
played an essential part in any group fight. However, with all this melee/archer-love going on, mages didn't get left out in the cold completely. They got to imbue their casting devices, to increase their damage a tad. A move that seemed only fair, seeing as melees and archers had recieved a substantial increase in damage output.
But Turbine was definatly not done 'fixing' the balance... And as such, they began walking down the path to the state we're currently in.
They implemented the Sanguinary Aegis, giving the melee characters the ability to absorb magical damage. The effect of this was, off course, that mages had a harder time killing the melee characters - in group fights as well as in one on one situations. We also saw more and more melee characters settling for high endurance templates, leaving dodging skills on another planet, since they simply weren't needed if one had the right template. Especially not in group fights. The best part of it all was that the Sanguinary Aegis didn't drop on death. In the true spirit of Darktide, less death items were now needed to cover ones essential PvP-gear.
As more and more players became interested in PvP combat, they also discovered that their opponents had the opportunaty to escape using an exploit referred to as the "jump-spin"-exploit - or by simply logging off while in portal space (or quickly logging off under open air). 'Off course', they pleaded Turbine to 'fix' these opportunaties. And that's what Turbine did. They made it virtually impossible (compared to before the 'fix', at least) to escape once you were ingaged in combat by adding 'pk-logoff'-timers as well as a huge stamina loss for jumping while engaged in combat. Now, the melees didn't only deal large amounts of damage, they also made their opponents stay to recieve the damage. This, off course, goes for the archers and mages too - with the only difference, that their attacks where dodgeable.
They gave us an improvement of the Greater Shadow Hunter armor - the wards. Any players that had worked hard to gather a set of minor wards (or even harder to gather a set of major wards) could now put that set aside, as it was obsolete. The Shadow Hunter armor cast the best wards, the major wards, and had an armor level that made almost anything possible. Also, the Shadow Hunter armor did not drop on death. Again, less death items were needed to cover the essential PvP-gear.
Still, Turbine was not satisfied with the state of PvP combat - so they decided to get together to create some genuine, hardcore, PvP love.
The result of that gettogether, and the downfall of the wonderfully fitted balance, came in-game; the weeping weapon. Weepings were fitted with the "Human Slayer" property, and as such, they were 'the' item to use for maximum damage output in PvP combat. They still are. To obtain a weeping item, all you had to do was to run a quest. A quest that you could almost run with your eyes closed (on your mule), mind you. No more working for creating the 'perfect' PvP weapon was needed - and no reason to use death items anymore - because the weepings were, off course, made no-drop. Furthermore, the melees' and archers' weeping weapons were made 'shield hollow', making the tactics of good lure-use completely obsolete.
And now the cycle seemed complete. The inhabitants of the Darktide server had gotten total no-drop outfits that worked more than great in PvP combat. Furthermore, the varieties of weapontypes/armortypes used were eliminated since only one type of weapon/armor was needed. And on top of that, the melees' weeping weapons were dishing out damage that made the damage dealt by fully tinkered weapons laughable.
But if we, in the state mentioned, took a jump to any carebear server - we'd learn that they were still stuck dueling eachother, as opposed to fighting in groups. And the melees, though they were definatly powerful, still had 'a hard time' fighting mages in one on one situations - so the carebear melees pleaded for Turbine to tweak their weapons... And Turbine followed orders.
However, if we jump back to Darktide, this didn't have the same 'wonderful' effect as it had on the carebear servers. Why? Because the inhabitants of Darktide, as always, were not fighting exclusively in one on one situations - and with the melees' weeping weapons, the melees didn't only play an essential part in group fights... They absolutely ruled group fights.
And this is where we're at today. A group is not a group without melees. To win a fight, all you need to do is have the mages cast an Imperil and a Vuln - and the melees can mash the Delete button to win the fight with their weeping weapons while the mages heals and dispells them (using the Awakener, for example). There are little to no tactics involved in comparison to 'the old days', because there is only 3 viable elements; Piercing, Slashing and sometimes Bludgeoning. Luring shields, a tactics that a good player would make use of in 'the old days', is obsolete. The archers are in a very boring situation, because either their opponent has Missle Defense (in wich case they will be virtually worthless), or they haven't (in wich case they will be virtually destroyed, shield or not).
I sincearly feel that adding new items is not the solution to our problem; and yes, it is a problem on Darktide. A huge one, too. To add diversity to the PvP, the ideal solution would be to remove the weeping items altogether. That would promote a some very positive things, like:
- Increased usage of tinkered weapons, the best addition to Asheron's Call ever, in my oppinion (thank you God?).
- Risk of dropping the essential PvP-gear (ie. tinkered weapon/casting device), adding a serious consequence of death.
- A slight (and I do mean slight, tinkered weapons hits HARD, but not as hard as weeping) decrease of the melee damage over time; promoting long, good, group fights where the smartest team wins rather than the team with the most melees.
- Lures being useable again. I must admit that I think making the weeping bow/melee weapons shield hollow is the worst decision I've seen in a long time. It simply does not make sense. It took lures out of the game, and with that, a more narrow array of tactics as a melee.
Now, I know that melee's will have a hard time killing a mage in a one on one situation if weepings are removed. But I must admit, as a melee, that I seriously don't think that's a problem. A mage should be able to kill a melee in a one on one situation, that is, unless there's a big level difference or the melee is extraordinarily skilled. A melee should be able to kill an archer in a one on one situation, without having to spend 6 credits on Missle Defense. An archer should be able to kill a mage too, unless the mage has good player skills (ie. good at dodging arrows while being aggressive).
With that said about one on one situations, I could most definatly handle if the one on one situations were like that - because it would mean a world to the group PvP; the essence of Darktide.
Thanks for listening. Constructive input is very much appreciated - flames are ignored.
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Hi everyone. I'd like to share some thoughts about the current state of the Darktide server since not many of the inhabitants spends time voicing our oppinion in a manner you guys can relate to.
FYI. I am currently playing on the Darktide server, and I've done so for around 3 years. All this time, I've played my mage, and my 2 melee characters (a dagger character who later became an archer, and an axer).
Throughout the post, I'd like you to keep in mind, that when I talk about PvP - I'm talking about PvP on Darktide. Not going red on any other server, and especially not going 'pink'.
For the last couple of patches, there's been added an increased amount of "PvP-related" content. PvP is not the same as it was 6 months ago.
Before this 'new' wave started, tinkered weapons made suddenly made the relatively useless melee characters viable - giving them a real chance to compete with mages. But these new opportunaties didn't come free. To compete, you'd have to aquire (and successfully imbue) a weapon - and then you could work on improving it with Granite / Iron / Velvet / Brass. This, as you might know, took a lot of work - but it was well worth it.
Suddenly, we saw a whole new balance between the classes on Darktide. Archers were now shooting through the mages banes. Melees were doing the same to a certain extend. Mages still had the upper hand in the one on one situations - but the archers and melees
played an essential part in any group fight. However, with all this melee/archer-love going on, mages didn't get left out in the cold completely. They got to imbue their casting devices, to increase their damage a tad. A move that seemed only fair, seeing as melees and archers had recieved a substantial increase in damage output.
But Turbine was definatly not done 'fixing' the balance... And as such, they began walking down the path to the state we're currently in.
They implemented the Sanguinary Aegis, giving the melee characters the ability to absorb magical damage. The effect of this was, off course, that mages had a harder time killing the melee characters - in group fights as well as in one on one situations. We also saw more and more melee characters settling for high endurance templates, leaving dodging skills on another planet, since they simply weren't needed if one had the right template. Especially not in group fights. The best part of it all was that the Sanguinary Aegis didn't drop on death. In the true spirit of Darktide, less death items were now needed to cover ones essential PvP-gear.
As more and more players became interested in PvP combat, they also discovered that their opponents had the opportunaty to escape using an exploit referred to as the "jump-spin"-exploit - or by simply logging off while in portal space (or quickly logging off under open air). 'Off course', they pleaded Turbine to 'fix' these opportunaties. And that's what Turbine did. They made it virtually impossible (compared to before the 'fix', at least) to escape once you were ingaged in combat by adding 'pk-logoff'-timers as well as a huge stamina loss for jumping while engaged in combat. Now, the melees didn't only deal large amounts of damage, they also made their opponents stay to recieve the damage. This, off course, goes for the archers and mages too - with the only difference, that their attacks where dodgeable.
They gave us an improvement of the Greater Shadow Hunter armor - the wards. Any players that had worked hard to gather a set of minor wards (or even harder to gather a set of major wards) could now put that set aside, as it was obsolete. The Shadow Hunter armor cast the best wards, the major wards, and had an armor level that made almost anything possible. Also, the Shadow Hunter armor did not drop on death. Again, less death items were needed to cover the essential PvP-gear.
Still, Turbine was not satisfied with the state of PvP combat - so they decided to get together to create some genuine, hardcore, PvP love.
The result of that gettogether, and the downfall of the wonderfully fitted balance, came in-game; the weeping weapon. Weepings were fitted with the "Human Slayer" property, and as such, they were 'the' item to use for maximum damage output in PvP combat. They still are. To obtain a weeping item, all you had to do was to run a quest. A quest that you could almost run with your eyes closed (on your mule), mind you. No more working for creating the 'perfect' PvP weapon was needed - and no reason to use death items anymore - because the weepings were, off course, made no-drop. Furthermore, the melees' and archers' weeping weapons were made 'shield hollow', making the tactics of good lure-use completely obsolete.
And now the cycle seemed complete. The inhabitants of the Darktide server had gotten total no-drop outfits that worked more than great in PvP combat. Furthermore, the varieties of weapontypes/armortypes used were eliminated since only one type of weapon/armor was needed. And on top of that, the melees' weeping weapons were dishing out damage that made the damage dealt by fully tinkered weapons laughable.
But if we, in the state mentioned, took a jump to any carebear server - we'd learn that they were still stuck dueling eachother, as opposed to fighting in groups. And the melees, though they were definatly powerful, still had 'a hard time' fighting mages in one on one situations - so the carebear melees pleaded for Turbine to tweak their weapons... And Turbine followed orders.
However, if we jump back to Darktide, this didn't have the same 'wonderful' effect as it had on the carebear servers. Why? Because the inhabitants of Darktide, as always, were not fighting exclusively in one on one situations - and with the melees' weeping weapons, the melees didn't only play an essential part in group fights... They absolutely ruled group fights.
And this is where we're at today. A group is not a group without melees. To win a fight, all you need to do is have the mages cast an Imperil and a Vuln - and the melees can mash the Delete button to win the fight with their weeping weapons while the mages heals and dispells them (using the Awakener, for example). There are little to no tactics involved in comparison to 'the old days', because there is only 3 viable elements; Piercing, Slashing and sometimes Bludgeoning. Luring shields, a tactics that a good player would make use of in 'the old days', is obsolete. The archers are in a very boring situation, because either their opponent has Missle Defense (in wich case they will be virtually worthless), or they haven't (in wich case they will be virtually destroyed, shield or not).
I sincearly feel that adding new items is not the solution to our problem; and yes, it is a problem on Darktide. A huge one, too. To add diversity to the PvP, the ideal solution would be to remove the weeping items altogether. That would promote a some very positive things, like:
- Increased usage of tinkered weapons, the best addition to Asheron's Call ever, in my oppinion (thank you God?).
- Risk of dropping the essential PvP-gear (ie. tinkered weapon/casting device), adding a serious consequence of death.
- A slight (and I do mean slight, tinkered weapons hits HARD, but not as hard as weeping) decrease of the melee damage over time; promoting long, good, group fights where the smartest team wins rather than the team with the most melees.
- Lures being useable again. I must admit that I think making the weeping bow/melee weapons shield hollow is the worst decision I've seen in a long time. It simply does not make sense. It took lures out of the game, and with that, a more narrow array of tactics as a melee.
Now, I know that melee's will have a hard time killing a mage in a one on one situation if weepings are removed. But I must admit, as a melee, that I seriously don't think that's a problem. A mage should be able to kill a melee in a one on one situation, that is, unless there's a big level difference or the melee is extraordinarily skilled. A melee should be able to kill an archer in a one on one situation, without having to spend 6 credits on Missle Defense. An archer should be able to kill a mage too, unless the mage has good player skills (ie. good at dodging arrows while being aggressive).
With that said about one on one situations, I could most definatly handle if the one on one situations were like that - because it would mean a world to the group PvP; the essence of Darktide.
Thanks for listening. Constructive input is very much appreciated - flames are ignored.