Blood Loather Experience

[Andiglo]

I want to tell Turbine how very disattisfied I am with the ability to debuff weeping weapons.

I'm being as honest as I can here, when I say that once you get hit with BL your done. There is NO way I can kill a mage when I have BL on, It just won't happen. Damage is reduced by a solid 30% or so less. I might as well quit when I get hit with BL, and dodge war spells all day or just run away, because that's all I'm good for, ALL offense is taken away when you get hit with BL, and the mages has plenty of time to cast it.

I'll return to PK once they fix this.

Guess mages will be the only PK template for awhile.

(IF your reply says, well that's the way it used to be, THEN TAKE THE WEEPING AWAY FROM MAGES THE WAY IT USED TO BE TOO).

[RocDynasty]

If they take all weepings, take aegis shields and ward gsa/gsc too because thats the way it used to be. Abd mages still had cs and cb wands still won more. Weepings kill pk

[Frank The Knife]

Trying to vuln/imperil a spec magic d mage - $10

IDing that mage and seeing 400 health - $20

"You fail to heal yourself" with 430 spec healing - $30

Being able to make a melee useless in one spell - Priceless

[Andiglo]

Originally posted by RocDynasty
If they take all weepings, take aegis shields and ward gsa/gsc too because thats the way it used to be. Abd mages still had cs and cb wands still won more. Weepings kill pk

Mages and Melee's both have wards, it's a wash.

The Aegis, isn't worth damn, but sure take it away too.

[Virindi Clown]

You can take a lot of things away, because thats all this PvP balance battle has been.

EVERY time it shapes up, it turns right around. It just goes back to the exact same situations all the time.

Once melees start to work, someone does something to shoot them down again, while leaving whatever advantage mages had been given in the process. Except this time it's even worse. Now they took archers with the melees, and they were already very far behind.

The 30% damage reduction sounds right to me. That's what someone told me it reduced their crits by when they were BLed on patch day.

Now you kill someone HOW when the game was balanced and suddenly you have to worry about a 30% damage reduction?

So tell me, why exactly is there a spell to make archers, who do **** damage, do 30% less of that, and melees as well, but NOTHING for mages? Watch out, I'll debuff your mana con and you'll be completely unable to kill me!

Thats the most completely unreasonable thing I have ever seen in this game.

This goes exactly along the lines of tinkering coming, and then insane armor flooding the loot system for a month after making the imbue effects on wands twice as good.

Why must it always work this way? It could go on forever and be just the same as hollows against old gsa.

[Sprawl]

In a game of 'rock, paper, scissors', the Rock beats the Scissors, Paper covers rock, and scissors cuts paper.

In the game of 'AC', the Mage beats the Melee, the Mage beats Archer, and the Melee beats the Archer (ok so archers beat melees too sometimes, it really depends on the weapon).

Each class should be stronger the one class but weaker then the other. This is balence.

Sprawl

[RocDynasty]

If the archer has a weeping bow, the melee is screwed because of the shield hollow attribute in it. More liike Mage > Melee, Mage > Archer, Archer > Melee.

[Frank The Knife]

Lets not also forget about that melee mod on the weeping.

Well thats also debuffable now.....

Dam I actually feel sorry for archers.

[Andiglo]

Originally posted by Sprawl


Each class should be stronger the one class but weaker then the other. This is balence.

Sprawl


But in PvP melee or archers are never > than a Mage. Just cast BL, and mages rule them all.

[Ivanhoe]

even without bloodloather mages > melee and archers.

[Ivanhoe]

No matter the odds in pvp this stupid idea with having weepings able to get loatherd has Killed melee's and archers

if its 1vs1 we get loatherd
if its 10 vs 10 we get loathers
if its 5 vs 1 (melee or archer) GUESS WHAT!!!!!!!!!!! we get loatherd.


You cannot attempt to fight 1vs1 2v1 3vs1 1000 vs 1 (melee or archer) because 1 easy casting spell kills any attempt to fight.


BS BS BS

[HeXt]

We all spend the same skill credits on item magic, mages should be more item based as well.


The coding is in there to grab the ID's of the armor and buff it, and maybe even debuff their armor... they should let us debuff it, and add that to a system that we can do that.

[RocDynasty]

If its 3 melees on 1 mage the mage dies because guess what...... the mage can't loather all 3 melees easily.

[HeXt]

Originally posted by RocDynasty
If its 3 melees on 1 mage the mage dies because guess what...... the mage can't loather all 3 melees easily.


People shouldn't HAVE to gang to win.

[LordShadowz]

Here is my character that I use for PK/PKL,

Level 110
Spec: UA, Melee D, Magic D, Life Magic
Trained: Item Magic, Creature Magic, Mana C, Arcane Lore.
Start Stats: 100,10,100,10,70,40

I have AL 600 (Buffed armor), Aegis Shield (For Mages Battles), AL 500 (Buffed) Buckler, My UA is 460 buffed, Melee D 420, Magic D 321, Life 400, Item 350.

Even with my decent level of Magic D and my Aegis, A mage crits me for 140-200. I dodge and get a jab in to hit him for 40 points with my UNDEBUFFED Weeping weapon. I then get drained and warred.

Today I gave it a whirl, I was able to put my weapon down once and the mage missed debuffing my weeping, I used that time to Hit him with Blade Vuln and Imp, I healed cause I caught a blast for 180, then lowered his Life and war magic to piss him off (hehe), When I pulled out my weeping a second time He loathered it... I hit him for 12 points, and thats WITH him vulned. I put the weeping weapon away, healed and ran behind the tree and pulled out my second weeping, It got loathered again. I pulled out my Phantom and hit him for 16. He had 323 health.

To make a long story short.. the battle went on for 23 minutes. I lagged trying to get behind a tree, was vulned, I was out of mana cause he drained it, and was killed. My weapons were useless.

I don't feel I am an expert Pker, I am out to have fun and learn. The changes they made, imo, have totally nerfed my guy and made battles tedious and NOT fun.

They need to make the weeping weapons UNDEBUFFABLE and put things back the way they were in November.


Billy

[Evoker II]

I copied and pasted this from my post on the Ac dev boards




Melees Thrive in group battle and Mages thrive in 1 on 1's. Get over it, it's impossible to balance the two so they are equal in both scenarios. PK isn't supposed to be about Dueling all the time. I fear going up against a fellow with 7 sword guys and 2 mages then 7 mages and 2 sword guys.

Archers are stuck inbetween. If they know how to dodge war spells good, they can beat mages, if they can't their tough luck. In group battle, archers are great to finishing off an injured player, or even more important. Keeping Mages on their toes, and Melees at bay

Best to throw away any hopes of perfect balance between a melee and a mage. Not the way it's suppose to work. Tell me in any story where a melee can take on a wizard solo?

[Andiglo]

I'm sorry but the idea of melee's only being good in a gang fight is bogus.

Put 4 mages against 4 melee's and you'll have 4 dead melee's and 1 dead mage.

All the mages have to do is cast BL on the melee's, and their offense goes out the window. Then just gang up on one, two mages can take 1 melee out in 1 spell once hit. If the melee turns to fight, the mages doesn't take hardly any damage anymore due to BL, they can heal without problems, while the melee takes 300 HP from the other mages.

[Ivanhoe]

archers can beat mages???
LOL!!!!!!!!!!

nice one I guess you dont PvP much.


Archers miss just as much as mages do with war spells
the big differnce is archers hit for 40s and mages hit for 150-220
Oh ya and bloodloather kills any kind of fight for melees or archers.

In group battles you will win with 5 mages vs 5 melees

Blood loather + war magic 150-220 damage = 4 or 5 mages alive and 4-5 melees dead (assuming the melees stay to fight after 2-3-4 of them r dead)

[Evoker II]

Yes archers kill mages, Seen it happen many times and I've pk'd VERY much. Only time it's tough to kiill a mage is when they have missle D and ya can't machine gun them. Not Many mages with missle d out there, even though I'm one of them.

[Ivanhoe]

try fighting a baned mage.

[Evoker II]

I play both sides, Archer and Mage

[AzulDrakkon]

Thats because theres usually few wizards in a story...and they are old and powerful...so apparently AC doesn't follow books...der.

As for archers killing mages, I kill mages, but it shouldn't have to be a frigging 20 minute battle because they glitch my arrows, I miss enough just trying to hit them through their overpowered missile defense.

I've been lucky, haven't been BLed yet on my archer.

[Virindi Clown]

Evoker, try DT where everyone has missile defense because it is so obvious that a mere 6 skill credits makes an entire class of character worthless.

Bow is balanced for machine gunning. When that doesn't work, they do what exactly? Why, change to sword of course, seeing as it actually does more damage than bow.

Oh wait, that's wrong. They'll just play mages because the melees will get BLed and lose 30% of their damage while the mages still two shot everyone.

And the stuff about mages being worthless in large numbers in group fights is stupid. Mages are the most strategical characters, and to win a large fight you have to have strategy.

You survive how long when just two mages take advantage of an opportunity to shoot you at the same time?

People who are actually GOOD and KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING rule any sized fight with good communication between mages.

The problem is just that melees do too well simply set on FULL SPEED. They don't own group fights hitting on full power, do they? Half power? Even a click above full speed? Nope.

They just hit a button and whether their target was standing there or running as fast as anyone can go, it will work.

There's your problem for you. Solve that, don't give mages something to take 30% of any non-mage's damage away.

[RocDynasty]

"People shouldn't HAVE to gang to win."

And you play DT Hext?? After that last comment, I dont believe it - you are lying to me, yourself and everyone else. No one has to gang to win but people gang because its there. Like in real life in a war, you expect to take everyone 1 on 1. Hell no, that 1 guy has to take on all the odds to survive. Ganging is apart of the game, your o.0 is showing.

[Evoker II]

I NEVER EVER said mages are worthless in a fellow, Plz read what I said again slowly. Fact is and I"ll repeat what I said. If you have 7 melles and 2 mages in one fellow and 7 mages and 2 melles in the other fellow. The fellow with the mellees will rape the mage heavy fellow. Why? How many mages can last more then 10-15 secs with 3 melles swinging at them? If they're sword forget about it, if they last the 10 secs I'll applaud them.

After the two mages get done vulning and imping the other fellow, the melees are waiting to pounce. Once they get the green light to go they'll swarm em, and they'll have their 2 fellow mages to sit back and heal them as they tank the mages.

What's the Mage fellows best defense against the Melle fellow? Well I guess they can all target one melle and spam arcs till he dies. Smart melle will realize he's being targeted and pull back while the other 6 melles go in for the kill.

So their's a real scenario where you have a mage strong fellow versus a melee strong fellow. No doubt the mlee strong fellow will come out victorious.

Lastly what ever happened to carrying a back up weeping weapon incase you get Bl'd?

[Ivanhoe]

Originally posted by Evoker II
I NEVER EVER said mages are worthless in a fellow, Plz read what I said again slowly. Fact is and I"ll repeat what I said. If you have 7 melles and 2 mages in one fellow and 7 mages and 2 melles in the other fellow. The fellow with the mellees will rape the mage heavy fellow. Why? How many mages can last more then 10-15 secs with 3 melles swinging at them? If they're sword forget about it, if they last the 10 secs I'll applaud them.





After the two mages get done vulning and imping the other fellow, the melees are waiting to pounce. Once they get the green light to go they'll swarm em, and they'll have their 2 fellow mages to sit back and heal them as they tank the mages.




What's the Mage fellows best defense against the Melle fellow? Well I guess they can all target one melle and spam arcs till he dies. Smart melle will realize he's being targeted and pull back while the other 6 melles go in for the kill.


So their's a real scenario where you have a mage strong fellow versus a melee strong fellow. No doubt the mlee strong fellow will come out victorious.

That isnt a real scenario. That is just numbers on a page
Furthermore 1 scenario does not mean All scenarios
Each group fight is totally diffrent then one another If i have to explain further then your just hopeless and not worth my time

Lastly what ever happened to carrying a back up weeping weapon incase you get Bl'd?



Actually plenty of mages can last when melees are on them
Its called spin jump you then have 3melees trying ot kill 1 target with that 1 target runing while the rest of the fellow fights.



You fail to understand that every group fight is different and there is no way to balance this.
Your 7.2 fellow example above doesnt mean anything
Each side could win the fight.
The mages have the huge advantage though.
As who wins depends on the players No one says a mage standing still will out last 3 melees on him but last time i fought a mage they dont stand still while getting hit upon. Again Spinjump > melee attacks


This is what you "think" would happen.
What actually happens is about 1000000000 different things
and all with the mages having huge advantages.


2 wars kills about 90% of melees. no need to spam anything.
once you realize your being targeted your dead.

That isnt a real scenario. That is just numbers on a page
Furthermore 1 scenario does not mean All scenarios
Each group fight is totally diffrent then one another If i have to explain further then your just hopeless and not worth my time


What happend to it is it takes 1 second to loather a weapon
it doesnt matter if u have 2 or 200 of a weapon if someone wants to loather you. you cannt attck . your fight is over.

[Frank The Knife]

So how has adding BLing helped gang fights?

All it has done is keep a melee from going solo.

[Ivanhoe]

Going solo now the melee or archer haze zero chance if the mage wants to loather you you HAVE to put your attack away.

You cannot attack or youll get loathered it turns into a melee standing their and a mage standing their rety to loather you.

In group fights it is even worst because now the mages dont even try to fight they just loather and the fight is over.



If you dont pvp 24/7 then you really shouldnt bother posting on a pvp thread.

[Frank The Knife]

If you dont pvp 24/7 then you really shouldnt bother posting on a pvp thread.


Thats kind of rude considering you dont know who PvP's and who does not..

[Ivanhoe]

It isnt rude at all.
Only pvpers opinions should count.
And in pvper i mean 24/7 red

[Virindi Clown]

Evoker, the comment about mages not being worthless in group fights was not directed to you. Many others like to throw that around when it is about the stupidest thing you can say.

I must agree with Ivanhoe and Frank. Although, I don't think it's rude to say you shouldn't post here if you don't PvP 24/7.

He may not actually know how much anyone here really PvPs, but man some of the o.0 retards we have here are giving it away more and more every second. And no, I am not speaking of anyone who recently posted on this thread. Just in general.

I don't mean o.0 as in non-DTer. I mean it as any idiot who acts like they know what they are talking about but have no clue, DT or not. I'll gladly consider any PKLer's opinions so long as they are informed.

[Frank The Knife]

So anyone who PK's and has been PKing RED/PINK on a white server has no say?

I guess your the Mayor of AC.

Please explain why a person who plays to PK on a white server cannot have input as to how PK is done.

I agree DT should have a larger voice but there is a large PvP base on on the white worlds. It's what makes the game fun.

[Virindi Clown]

Long as PKL peeps don't try and use "duels" they have as valid points, they can have a say because then they should know how PvP really works.

It's blatantly obvious what is wrong and right with it, and what should be done to change things. You don't necessarily have to play DT non-stop to see that, but doing friendly little 1 on 1s randomly on a white server isn't going to show you.

[yakisoba_noodle]

These are good comments on the effects of the new Features (in the MS sense of the word) applied to weeping weapons.

Any developer comment? It's looking more and more as if the live portion of this "test" is becomming conclusive.

Please make weeping weapons undebuffable, thanks.
--Yak

[Ivanhoe]

i agree with noodle.

Isnt this "Test" over with?

Why keep it in for a whole month?

We should not be forced to test out this things.

[HeXt]

I've killed a few mages as my archer, it's a pain though. :/

[RocDynasty]

"Please explain why a person who plays to PK on a white server cannot have input as to how PK is done."

Its not the matter that npk servers do not have a say, its that 50% of people on npk servers think they know what they are talking about and they only went pk 1-2 times. Only 5%-10% of npk people are perma pk(L)s.

[Extinction]

I loather using level 6 for a few reasons
- Easier to cast, less fizzles
- Lasts longer
- I *think* it has a bit longer range

I've seen 9/10 mages casting level 6 also, this is why I've learned Item 6 dispell on all my chars :p *HINT*

[isgod]

Someone that is unhappy with the abiliy to blood loather weeping weapons is most likely lacking in the following resources or skills due to inexperience:

!.a secondary weeping weapon
2.a phantom weapon
3.magic defense.
4.life magic.
5.ctrl+ <hotkey for the weapon that someone is attempting to loather> or simply <hotkey for the weapon that someone is attempting to loather> in order to unequip it to thwart the loather.

I have played thru many instances of AC when it was unbalanced.This period is not however one of them.I applaud the content guys for their continued perserverance to make it this way.

dueling is not pvp.

pvp is when you are hunting and you are jumped by two of your enemies while surrounded by a spawn of drudge cab's and you are in a position to do whatever necessary to not only survive the encounter but put such pwn on your enemies that they will think twice about encroaching on your hunting spot and/or seek more support from their allies before coming their again.

pvp is when a fellow of your enemies is spotted in your town and you mobilize as many of your guildmates as you can and do whatever necessary to remove them so you and your guildmates may shop safely.

pvp is when you find your enemies hunting ground and camp it for hours at a time to stop their XP flow for as long as you can.

there are many different opinions from many different types of players on this thread.and there is absolutely nothing wrong with them expressing their opinion where matters of pvp are conerned.But if you all have to do in order to remedy yourself of this situation is to visit an alter or type /pk lite off,then of course your opinion is going to be less respected than others.

isgod
recruiting - Dereth Liberation Front - Darktide
red dot since conception - january 11,2000

[Virindi Clown]

Isgod I can't believe you play DT and just said half of that. How the &#$@ can you suggest PHANTOMS? They do NOTHING compared to weeping! And wtf does life magic have to do with it? Are you suggesting I harm everyone to do death or shoot life bolts at them with my melee? My 10 starting focus/self magic defense should be stopping a full blown mage's item enchantment when even a maxed out mage's magic defense can resist another mage's item with far less xp in their item skill? Oh and sure, I can disarm my weapon, but then I get to stand there for a second while I do it and a mage gets to wind up their war. And heck, just forget that, there is no debuff to do to mages so why should I have to be able to disarm a weapon AT ALL when there is NOTHING you can do to them? GD WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!?

[isgod]

How the &#$@ can you suggest PHANTOMS? They do NOTHING compared to weeping!
when i get home,ill upload a screenshot that will show you what a phantom weapon can do if you know how to use it.
And wtf does life magic have to do with it? Are you suggesting I harm everyone to do death or shoot life bolts at them with my melee?
youre absolutely right.if youre so unprepared for battle that you only have ONE form of attack,and only ONE weapon for that ONE form of attack,harm,drain stam,drain mana,life bolt,harm stam,do whatever you can to deplete your enemy of his resources while you wait out the 4 minute blood loather on your ONE weapon.OR simply wait until the very moment 20 seconds has passed since the last successful attack on you and recall to the ls and then spam your enemy with some whiny **** like "you suck,you bl'd my weapon,whah whah whah".
My 10 starting focus/self magic defense should be stopping a full blown mage's item enchantment
that in itself is a template flaw.If i were you,i wouldnt feel comfortable having any problems with changes made by turbine when you dont have the experience to not play a character that is no where near optimal.We have been provided with the ability to alter our templates post-creation,i suggest you take advantage of that ability.starting 10 f/s was effective about 2 1/2 years ago and has since then been regarded as an inability to compete.

I am in no way attempting to slam your reply.I am just simply stating the facts.That is how it is.Youre either going to use ANY MEANS necessary (i am implying means provided to us by the game devs and not 3rd party hacks,cheats and what-not) to win in a battle,or youre simply going "take your ball and go home" when the particular situation does not deal you the hand you are equipped to play with.The character i play with the most has 2 forms of attack,and several different ways per each form.Versatility will determine life or death.By the time an enemy would be able to nerf one form of attack,the nerfs on the other would have worn off keeping my ability to take his/her health continual.And that is the object in a battle,to take your enemies health.

but like i said.You are by no means obligated to undertake a battle using any of the methods mentioned here by me.You always have the right to recall like a punk and whine about the nerf your enemy has put on your weapon.Then get on this forum,provided by the devs to express our opinions,and talk about how AC is unfair now because you wanna play a char with an outdated template and they should conform to your lack insight.

But from what i hear (I have no actual experience playing any server other than DT) that is how the "pvp" on o.0 works.You stand real still and trade wars.the only spells you are "allowed" to cast are one life vuln and/or bolt-arc.Then get your panties in a wad when the victor loots the corpse.So i guess a BL would be frowned upon anyway no matter what weapon it is applied to.

[Frank The Knife]

Isgod,

I have to tell you I doubt you ever put any time in as a melee pk.

There is NO WAY I can kill a mage my lvl+ with a Phantom period.

The problem with the phantom is it just can't do enough damage to get a prepared mage with 300+ HP worried at all.

Why I have to carry a second/third sword because of one spell is retarded. I hope the devs see this and correct their mistake.

A true melee will resist no mage their lvl+ end of story.

Have you ever tried to hide a sword in the heat of battle? I strongly doubt it.

[Extinction]

I know that Phantom UA can hit for well over 110 damage.. even through al 1000000 base armor - and it's undebuffable ;)

You cannot have a weapon that does the best damage in the game, and it not have drawbacks..

If you want to not worry about loathers, use a slightly worse, undebuffable weapon like phantom.

[Mimir]

Isgod, what you are missing is that a majority of the players with 10 F/S seem to want to be able to play their 10 F/S chars in PvP, I for one don't want to have to switch my atributes all of a sudden, and yes, I was viable one month ago. Now turbine will see that a majority of the PvP players are unhappy with the current state of things and hopfully make some changes to make me happy with my 10 F/S Macer and make the rest of the 10 F/S people happy.

[isgod]

I for one don't want to have to switch my atributes all of a sudden, and yes, I was viable one month ago
welcome to asheron's call.every month theres something new.i think that was advertised on the box?

i have a mage,an archer and a hybrid.so whatever a patch may bring me,i have a viable template.i have these things because i wish to compete.and in order to compete in AC,you MUST be able to conform to the particular environment you wish to compete in.

man,my responses make me seem like im coming off so harsh,and im not intending to.but lol,ive played so many other mmorpg's...in fact i think ive played just about all of the ones that have been released in the last year or two (except planetside and SW-galaxies) and i cant for the life of me feel comfortable complaining about much of anything to do with AC.

ESPECIALLY the fact that i can BL a weeping weapon.(altho,i would have preferred that the damage on weeping sword was toned down instead of being able to bl all weepings, but ill take this patch over last patch anyday.)

anyways.i consider AC:DM to still be a very competable environment.most of what i have posted is alternatives to giving up when your weeping wep gets loathered.

if you are fighting,and loathering the wep you have chosen to pursue the attack with renders you useless...then that problem has nothing to do with AC.

http://www.geocities.com/renoiuxisgod/151.jpg

btw, /\/\/\ that was done with my phantom.so youll never in a million years be able to convince me that my phantom isnt a viable alternative while im waiting out a 4 minute debuff.

[AzulDrakkon]

Originally posted by Extinction

You cannot have a weapon that does the best damage in the game, and it not have drawbacks..


Weeping wand hits for 150+...crits for 200+...thats not good damage for you I assume.
...now what do you call that.

[Mimir]

really my phantom mace does lousy damage so I am wondering if that guy had his life prots up. I will gladly do some testing with phantoms if you want with dog-boy's phantom

[ACVeteran]

Anyone defending these changes clearly plays a mage as their central PvP character. This is one of the most foolish things ever done to this game. Melees and archers are entirely useless at the hands of a single spell. All of this because mages on the server who, for so many years, were the all powerful in PvP could actually be beaten -on occasion- now?

Could someone from Turbine please -try- and explain the logic behind it? No, I don't suppose its possible as there is none.

Thank you much, Turbine, for making my gaming experience that much worse.

Thankfully, alternatives to your game (which -was- showing promise until this change came along) are coming around the corner.

[Andiglo]

One followup thought. On SC, one who casts BL is looked upon similiar to somebody who would cast creature debuffs. Both are looked on as very 'cheap'.

On DT, since there is no cheap (called normal there), I suspect it's a bit different, but it does say a lot on how affective BL can be.

However, it's a bit more difficult for a melee to cast Creature Spells (unless it's spec'ed). And as a melee, I'd have to land War Inept, and Focus and Self Debuffs to reduce war down as much as 1 single BL spell.

[Virindi Clown]

It's hard enough just to cast inepts on a mage, much less not be resisted every time. If you ever do land them, they don't do anything. They won't fizzle because most mages have like 420+ war when it only takes 300 war for 50/50 success rate, and you sure as heck aren't going to resist on anything but a maxed out magic d mage.

Inepts ARE looked at as cheap on DT. They don't take any strategy, it's just a stupid thing you can press that can't be avoided to instantly make your opponent as if they were missing an important buff. It's different with vulns, because they're balanced to be that way in the fight.

Debuffable weeping weapons follow in exactly the same manner. It just hurts the melees and archers, because the debuffs, just like normal inepts, don't affect the mages.

[Frank The Knife]

Please take out loather ASAP.

It really sucks.

Bad enough I get blasted for 200+ out of knowwhere. What am I suppose to do once all my swords are loathered? Phantom? ROFL You try to kill someone with 400 health with a phantom they will regen more health than you can crit for.

Should I expect more melee nerfs next month?

:mad:

[scorcher]

all arguements aside

war costs twice as much as any other class, it should be # 1 hands down.

This FACT is and always will be disputed by people who like to play characters other than mages.


If I pay twice as much for something, I just like anyone else with a brain would expect it to perform twice as well, War does not perform twice as well with the time to cast/damage ratio, but aside from that, mages with war should always in any 1 vs 1 situation be king.

Its not rockes science, your damage/time should be directly proportional to how much you spent on your skill.

If you spent 8 credits on bow, you expect to have the upper hand with someone who spend 16 on war? Please.

[Andiglo]

Originally posted by scorcher
all arguements aside

war costs twice as much as any other class, it should be # 1 hands down.

This FACT is and always will be disputed by people who like to play characters other than mages.


If I pay twice as much for something, I just like anyone else with a brain would expect it to perform twice as well, War does not perform twice as well with the time to cast/damage ratio, but aside from that, mages with war should always in any 1 vs 1 situation be king.

Its not rockes science, your damage/time should be directly proportional to how much you spent on your skill.

If you spent 8 credits on bow, you expect to have the upper hand with someone who spend 28 on war? Please.

This is a very poor argument. A Mage with SPEC War (28 Skill Credits), and nothing else spec'd, can take out ANY MELEE with one BL spell (it's that simple, don't even need to spec Item). Total: 28 Points.

A Melee who wants to have a reasonable chance to avoid being killed by a mage AND kill that mage must spec (Sword, Axe, Mace etc) (12-16 Skill Points), AND they have to spec Magic D so they can resist those BL spells and make the Aegis work (12 Skill Credits) AND they have to spec life (20 Skill Credits) if they want to land any vun and imp's on a mage with any sort of magic D(not nessasarly spec'ed). Total: 48 Skill Credits.

28 vs 48, who spent more?

Ok, so a mage might spec magic D and life too, that's not the point. They don't HAVE too, a melee or even a archer does (at least life). This doesn't include Melee D or Missle D which is a wash IMO if you want to defend against archers or melee's).

The short of it is, a melee and archer frankly must spend more skill credits to be comparable in PK to any mage who does not have to spend anything more than War, especially with BL in the mix.

Let's not forget Focus and Self. A mage can focus primarily on Focus and Self, a melee or archer who puts that much into focus and self, is a really poor archer or melee. This means by nature their magic D and life skills, and item debuff (BL), are by nature much lower.

[scorcher]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Andiglo
This is a very poor argument. A Mage with SPEC War (28 Skill Credits), and nothing else spec'd, can take out ANY MELEE with one BL spell (it's that simple, don't even need to spec Item). Total: 28 Points. [/QUOTE]

The last three melees I fought I bloodloathered them and they were still hitting me very hard. I dont know if its some sort of exploit, but I was getting owned and I could not heal fast enough for the damage they were dealing. I couldnt run or attack because my health was going down very fast. I was basically screwed. I dont have super uber tinkered armor but my opinion here is that its ridiculous to have to have tinkered armor like that just to compete(and it dont really help all that much , i borrowed a suit of al 400+ for a good while)


If you read above, I was not argueing. How can facts be an arguement, let alone a poor one.

Im not adding to it and saying if(by choice i might add) this person train this and train that to compete he spends more.

Im just simply stating weapon to weapon , war costs more, alot more.

Things you stated above can easily be argued, for instance you were speaking about the credit costs costing more for meleer to compete with a mage, but I can argue that a good meleer who knows when to dodge, dont necessarily need all that, a good mage cannot dodge a good meleer.


I do agree focus and self does help magics too, but its also divided by four not three to raise a magic up one point. These are facts not opinions.

This was not intended to be an arguement.

There are enough of disputes in this thread :D .

I know what I am saying is sorta off topic but, I keep hearing people say mages deal more damage and it is not fair or whatnot. Well it makes total sense that they should , their attack skill costs almost twice as much, when specialed, as sword or bow.

Furthermore, a mage cant train melee it wont do them ANY good whatsoever with PK, on the other hand a melee/archer can CHOOSE to special magic D, which helps (most people say will agree magic d dont help all that much for the cost even if you have focus and self at 100 innate), not alot but it does help.

Btw, All players start with magic d trained.

All players dont start with melee d trained. It wouldnt help a mage enough to matter anyway but just another point)

P.S your post on my quote states, i said 8 credits versus 28 credits , read my original post you will see it said 16 originally.

[sylphia]

Originally posted by Andiglo
This is a very poor argument. A Mage with SPEC War (28 Skill Credits), and nothing else spec'd, can take out ANY MELEE with one BL spell (it's that simple, don't even need to spec Item). Total: 28 Points.

A Melee who wants to have a reasonable chance to avoid being killed by a mage AND kill that mage must spec (Sword, Axe, Mace etc) (12-16 Skill Points), AND they have to spec Magic D so they can resist those BL spells and make the Aegis work (12 Skill Credits) AND they have to spec life (20 Skill Credits) if they want to land any vun and imp's on a mage with any sort of magic D(not nessasarly spec'ed). Total: 48 Skill Credits.

28 vs 48, who spent more?



Ahem. A melee does NOT need to spec MagDef. Chances are, even WITH MagDef speced, they wont resist a mage that has item trained, much less the war speced. If you want to go THAt route, then a mage would need to train or spec meleeD, even though they wont have much of a chance of evading a melee toon anyway, for the same reason that the melee will never have huge magic skills: low starting stats (10 coord/quick).

Not to mention the fact that a mage with ONLY war isnt going to do a fat lot of damage. Without life at least trained, they wont be landing vulns, which is where the big damage comes in; if you dont have life, you have to rely on rending wands for your "vulns", which means you have no weapin wand slayer bonus. If you use the WW, then yo uhave no vuln bonus; either way, the damage from a war spell is dropped dramatically, even assuming the melee has no life magic and is using lvl 6 items for pro's.

Time to redo the math a bit:

Melee:
WPN: 16 to spec
MagDef: 12 to spec (I will giv eyou this one so you can use the Aegis and have a chance of resisting the BL...of course that makes Item magic an offensive skill that must be acocunted for on the mage now)

Total: 28

Mage:
War: 28 to spec
Life: 12 to train
Item: 8 to train
(we wont bother with Melee def cos we KNOW it isnt going to help, and Item, being cheaper, makes the point better anyway)

Total: 48

As you said, 28 vs 48. Who spent more?

The only thing that REALLY matters for this are the skills that are actually doing damage: Wpn vs War spells; thats 16 at most for wpn SPEC, vs 16 to TRAIN war, 28 if you spec it. You get MagDef for free, and the mage must pay for melee all the way up.

No matter how you do the math, the mage spends more credits to be viable than the melee does. The mage SHOULD be doing more damage than the melee.

That being said, it should not be a one-way fight. The melees and archers SHOULD be able to kill the mage, though it SHOULD be more of a challenge. This change to WW's removed their best chance of doing so. Judging by recent Dev posts, they are finally starting to admit they made a mistake and are going to "rethink their plan". I figure they will make WW's unenchantable again 2 patches form now (they have already said it wont be coming on this next patch). But I expect them to do it again when their so-called vision is "on paper". I have a feeling they are going to try and shove this down our throats regardless, with a bunch of other changes being instituted to "justify" the changes, including making it so we cant auto-target weapons again.

If they want to do that for PK, fine I dont care, so long as they leave the PvM ability to auto-target wpns and shields.

The simple fact is that its nearly impossible to balance PK in such a way that you can have a fair fight class vs class, while still respecting the damge vs skill credit issue. Especiall with all the variables (rends, armor tinks, spel lvls, wield req's for certain damage wpns). Then you have the problem that with mage vs any other class, the attack of one class if based on the same attributes as its defense---and the player defending is naturally going to have low starting stats in those defenses. A melee/archer will start with low foc/self, so magDef is going to be low. A Mage will have low coord/quick so melee/missileDef will be low.

I dont envy the folks that have to figure this one out :D

[Andiglo]

Originally posted by sylphia Melee:
Melee:
WPN: 16 to spec
MagDef: 12 to spec (I will giv eyou this one so you can use the Aegis and have a chance of resisting the BL...of course that makes Item magic an offensive skill that must be acocunted for on the mage now)

Total: 28

Mage:
War: 28 to spec
Life: 12 to train
Item: 8 to train
(we wont bother with Melee def cos we KNOW it isnt going to help, and Item, being cheaper, makes the point better anyway)

Total: 48 [/B]

Mages don't need Item nor Life to vun or cast BL on a melee. All they need is war. Melee's MUST SPEC LIFE, to cast on mages in PK.

[sylphia]

The arguement form the post above was that the weeping wpn could be made useless with a BL, which is true; you need item traine din order to do so.

War by itself is about as effective as a fullpower sword swing by itself. Without vulns, war doesnt do anywhere NEAR the damage that is causing the issues now. A melee does NOT need life speced in order to land on a mage; it makes it much easier, but it is by no means a necessity. For that matter, speced war isnt a must either; just makes it easier. And by the same token the melee doesnt need speced wpn to land on a mage; UNtrained will generally work :)

Make up your mind how yo uintend to argue your case; either a mage is going to BL your wpn and make it useless, or they are going to need melee defense in order to evade your swings. You act like a mage gets to just stand there and shoot war spells while getting hit with an unbuffed WW and ignore it, while doing huge amounts of damage with their own war spells. The truth is that there is alot more to it than that. Mages are more powerful, yes, but we dont just press a button and command an oponent to die.

It takes at LEAST 2 or 3 :D

[Andiglo]

I agree.

But a mage doesn't need to spec item or life to vun and cast BL on a melee, unless the melee has speced Magic D, because of the FOCUS and SELF.

A melee has too, unless they've made themself a usless melee by maxing focus and self.

[sylphia]

I specifically said the mage didnt need speced life or item, and in the example I used, I set them as TRAINED, not speced. Even with speced MagDef on a melee, the mage wont likely NEED to spec his skills to get past it; it might be a roughly even chance of hit or resist, but the mage will prob hit. Again, by the same token, you can hit a mage with an untrained wpn skill, since his melee defense is nil; we could technically remove the wpn cost from the elee side, except that wpn damage is tied directly into wield requirements now.

A melee with trained life can hit the mage just fine; remember that magdef suffers a much greater skill curve than life; almost double. If the mage has magdef SPECED, well that screws the pooch for you and pretty much requires speced life at THAT point, but that also means the mage has to give up training or specing other skills.

The bottom line is that a mage does spend alot more skill credits than a melee; they are entitled to more damage. They just arent entitled to being nearly undisputed champions in PK. Un-nerf WW's and most of this becomes a moot point. Unless you are an archer :)