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View Full Version : A constructive way to fix PvP


Virindi Clown
12-23-2003, 09:03 PM
I've explained this to people already and no one could find anything wrong with it and people liked it and agreed with it. Keep in mind I play a melee myself and I thought of this and want it done. Ok, here goes...

The current problems in PvP balance point to melees being too strong in group fights. Now think for a second, WHY do they dominate group fights with so little effort? They hit too hard on power? Medium power? Even just right above speed? Nope. It's full speed itself and our friend "sticky." Sticky basically does not even do anything on anything above full speed. It is more likely to be harmful than helpful.

If sticky is the problem, shouldn't it be looked at then? Obviously this is not working out. It is almost inescapable at times and melees hit basically just as hard running after you as they will over time wacking away on power, thought not in as large of chunks at once. Even melees do not like it. It can become as inescapable of a death to a melee as someone being attacked. Anyone who has played a melee knows how completely impossible it can be to avoid slamming right back into someone when you lag even unnoticably imbetween moving away from a target in mid-attack, often right into the face of a war spell, and your death. Getting stuck on walls and stairs and things is no fun, either.

There is a simple concept which I believe fixes both of these issues at the same time. Melees should have two attacks.

One is using the normal attack bar. However, there would be NO sticky or charging. The person would have to run in and come within appropriate range of their target on their own. This keeps the melee from ever being "dragged" undesirably and would allow melees to actually apply a good deal of skill, much like mages. You could turn repeat attacks on and off just the same as not to affect PvM, though it would probably be a bad idea to have it on for PvP.

You would charge an attack just the same, only you would have more control over it if you so choose, as would be useful most commonly in a PvP situation. With repeat attacks off, you would have to hit attack and stand in place to wait for it to finish charging up to where the bar is positioned, or hold down attack until you get to the desired amount of power. On full speed this would obviously not be required, and continuous quick pressing or clicking of the attack button while in range of the target would cause immediate quick attacks. Sensitivity for the attack command would have to be turned down some, as you currently cannot really press the button fast enough to do a full speed attack. To charge at all it would actually have to be held down. If the person moves while charging, their attack will stay charged up to that level of power. They can then attack with that much, or stop and charge more until they reach full power or wish to move again to attack. When they are within range of their target for their attack to connect, an attack at that point will go off and the power meter will drop back down to be charged again or for the player to rapidly attack without charging as mentioned before.

With repeat attacks on, everything mentioned before would function the same, but it would automatically continue charging up to the position the bar is at and attacking so long as the character remains standing in place and the target is within range.

If the target moves, the melee must follow and get within range before their attack can go off. It is possible to hit a moving target in this manner, but not repeatedly as with sticky, as you would not be allowed to be running and attacking at the same time. The most anyone could manage would be to very quickly hit attack when they have reached their target as they let off of run, thereby dropping them behind their target. Without the ability to charge, they have no speed bonus while attacking and could not repeatedly gain on a target and attack again with this form of attack, as everyone moves at the same speed almost regardless of their run skill.

For this to work, there would have to be something to indicate when a target is in range. I would suggest that the target shape around whatever is currently selected change to a different and VERY noticable shape, and then back to normal when the melee is no longer within range. If this was not showing and an attack was set off, anything already charged would be lost so people could not just keep attacking until they connect without really trying. This would have to be showing for repeat attacks to function.

This allows for freedom of movement where current damage is not unbalanced and eliminates the problems sticky can cause without warning.

The second attack would just be another button we could press or click on the attack panel with its own power meter that functions with sticky as we know it now. However, instead of having the normal 50% damage mod as full speed currently does on the power meter, it would be lower, probably around 35% (just a random guess), to put it in line with the damage of a phantom weapon against the normal type of tinkered armor we see (around 400 base, which does not need to be very precise because 350 and 450 are not much different in the calculation even after banes), which is CONSIDERABLY less than a weeping weapon, but still fair for a "homing" repeated attack. Phantoms were and are quite survivable in groups.

People could still use this for PvM if they wanted as we know it today. The best thing here would be for the lower mod on full speed to affect only PK attacks, but if that is not possible I'm sure it would be managable to have the same mod against monsters. You would probably just not want to use it.

This fixes the group gank problem and at the same time, gives melees a strategic element which they lack. They can dart in and out of wars without suddenly being run back into their target when breaking a charging attack, and can instantly switch to a "homing" attack for a moving target, though it will not be as effective as fighting it out normally.

I know some people will say this would allow melees to get TOO good so that they could just dodge any war and always come back with a full power hit to kill any mage, but I do not feel that is the case. It would work exactly the same, but you would have to run yourself to the target instead of just pressing attack doing it for you. All that changes is that sticky will no longer be running people into things, like wars, for no reason where it is not needed.

Debuffable weeping weapons is NOT the solution. It does not really change group fights, and is just irritating 1 on 1, not to mention completely crippling to any melee or archer (who are already bad enough off) who happens to be debuffed in that situation.

My idea covers pretty much everything and I've figured out every detail which I have posted right here. Please give me your feedback, as I would greatly appreciate it in an effort to better the game in an area it seems is only going to decline.

Ivanhoe
12-24-2003, 10:43 AM
I disagree with the thinking that melees or any group is overpowered in "Group" fighting.

There are 10000000 elements in group fighting and this is why there is no way to balance group fights.


The devs say melees were over powered in group fights.
I disagree


If you have a group of any class you will and SHOULD have an advantage over a group of LESS people

This has to be the only way that melees were over powered
Because a group of 5melees and 2 mages vs a group os 1 melee and 1 mage willl obviously destroy the less numbered group.

This isnt out of balance. A higher number of players SHOULD be able to kill a smaller number of players.



In EVEN numbered fights Melees were not overpowered at all



This is just a dumb move by the devs to try and change somthing for no good reason at all.


ARCHERS have been the worst off in the pvp game and turbine instead of giving archers a boost they Nerf melees and nerf archers.........


Bad move

Lets get a "our numbers were wrong we will be reverting weeping back to what they were before dec update"


And be done with it.

THEN get to work on a archer buff because archers are horrible.

Virindi Clown
12-24-2003, 08:14 PM
Maybe missile defense just shouldn't be a trainable skill for people. It doesn't appear to matter much for PvM and its almost impossible to balance archers without basically completely nerfing missile defense. Missile skills are affected too greatly by the accuracy meter to ever figure it out.

Personally, I do not think melees are actually overpowered. I think people are just pouting after they are killed by them, seeing as for nearly four years melees were no threat at all.

However, I don't like how sticky works. It is obviously flawed and seemingly bugged. Any non-melees don't seem to like it either because of the difference in how it works compared to archer and mage capability. It is too limiting, and too unpredictable and uncontrollable. Therefore, it should be dealt with, and that was my solution.

Ivanhoe
12-25-2003, 09:36 PM
Well they finally made a small change with pvm and missle d
so now a faster throwing lugian will be missing u more often then before. Because fastermissle attack = less skill from the lugian.


It should be trainable because machine gun archers r very good vs melees actually they should be able to easily kill a melee if they are using machine gun. (i fight archers often and the only thing that saves me on my melee is my Missle defence making them bump up their accuracy a little bit.


I would say the very first thing to be done with a archer buff would be a ageis type item. as an archer vs a mage its pretty much impossible to land 1 or 2 hits without getting a big war spell in your face. ON dt mages move around and fastcast This really kills the effectiveness of archers


After an aegis type item is added for archers then im not sure what else could be done unless they gave arrows a bigger hit radius like war spells have so they can hit little Z C people who easily evade arrows.




With melees and sticky
Yes its a messed up system but its IN FAVOR of the non melee or the guy who is trying to run away/break sticky It isnt in favor of the melee

Half the time people jump spin (this would be fine because they lose 50% stamina or whatever)
But after a jump spin comes client issues where the melees has no clue where u "Really" are because the server doesnt really know until u land from the jump
You have the ability to chug stam or health potions while sliding along while the melees TRYS to hit/swing on you which 90% time doesnt swing at all and your "stuck" to your target just sliding along watching him recover fully health or stamina until HE wants to stop and fight u.

This IS a major problem BUT it has been in the game since sticky melee has been in and something tells me The devs wont be trying to fix it anytime soon.

A possible small solution would be 5-10sec timers on potion drinking Just so the person who breaks melee isnt able to fully recover after every spinjump.

Virindi Clown
12-25-2003, 11:01 PM
Yeah, spin jump is nothing without god moded elixirs. People don't use it to break sticky, they use it to get a step ahead of you and chug their head off until they can turn around on you in the fight like they just hit their reset button while you were at a disadvantage.

A timer isn't the best idea. The obvious one is the move-fail radius that healing and spell casting have. Really, its just STUPID that they don't have that.

Ivanhoe
12-26-2003, 09:46 AM
Ya i agree

this is why i dont know how any person who actually pvps would say melees are overpowered at all.


Its easy to fool the melees client with jumps and chug potions all day long.


Im not convinced that melees were ever over powered.

So there must be another real reason why devs put in debuffable weepin weapons

You have the only thing that can kill a mage able to be debuffed into useless

What can a melee or archer do to a mage to get a similar type effect?

And debufing mana c isnt even close .

If the devs want to just put debuffing back into pvp (which is what I really think they wanted to do and had nothing to do with over powered melee excuse)

Then they should put somthing in similar that can be casted on the mages wands that cuts any war spell damage by 40%

Im pretty sure everyone would be fine with something like that
And the devs can get to keep their debuffing weepings stay a part of pvp.

Virindi Clown
12-26-2003, 01:06 PM
I can honestly say that I would be extremely happy if they would just give items that recover secondary attributes the move-fail radius so the god moding stops.

You would see a world of difference right there.

Extinction
12-27-2003, 05:43 AM
I didn't have time to read it all but if your idea was basically 'powerful non-sticky melee' and 'weaker sticky melee' it was a fairly good idea.

About loathering in groups - I've played a few hours since last patch and I spent at least 1/2 of that time casting blood loather ;)

Virindi Clown
12-27-2003, 02:44 PM
It's no fix. They basically said it was to stop melees from dominating large fights. If a bunch of melees attack you at once, it's over no matter what.

And just to make it clear, I wouldn't want non-sticky melee more powerful. It would be just the same, but sticky, since it would be used only for running someone down and ganking, would have to do less damage.

I made my idea a little complicated, because I sat there and figured out a way that it could work, but to sum it up, it is quite simple to just have non-sticky attack, and a little bit weaker of an attack with sticky. It could go however from there, I just made up one way it could work and decided I would type the whole thing out.

Sticky really is bad 1 on 1. Every time I fought a mage last few days I've been sucked into them. I try to lead myself to believe that it isn't so bad so it doesn't bother me, but it comes up nearly every time.

Only people who are quick on their feet would be able to go from fighting someone, then killing someone if they run, since you would have to use a different kind of attack when they probably shot a war or something to make you back off for an escape.

It'd be kind of like how for a mage an arc is to a streak, and you have to do all the maneuvering to stay alive.

Right now you just press one button. It's too simple, and I know most people really aren't good at actually fighting it out on a melee. If it worked like I suggested, the only way you would get slaughtered outright is if you really messed up and the guy was actually good. It would be obvious at that point that the balance in the game would not be to blame.

Shao Majii
01-06-2004, 04:53 AM
This idea looks like a good start if nothing else. Sticky is nasty. But a little ponder I had after hearing about balance and groups...

Balance Group battles?
Is this possible? Think about how many variables there are:

Number on each side
Melee/archer/mage
Template of each

Ok... Lets play with this. Assume (impossible really but do it) that there are 3 on each side for simplicty's sake (again, pfft). Ok... now lets see... with that set we have to allow for every combination of melee, archer and mage. Thats... 27 combos per team... so every possible battle between each combo is... 27 squared which is 729. That's a lot of possible battles. And I'm not even gonna TRY to come up with numbers for different templates... So doing the math on this "group battle balance" thing is really hard. While I don't really PvP much (although I've thought about DT many times but I can't seem to get past all the fussin that goes on over balance) I can see the math and ask this:

Should it be attempted on the server/content/Dev level, or should the devs concentrate on making 1 on 1 battles balanced and let the players make the numbers balanced? It's just a question, don't shoot me, please.

I don't do DT.... no one has been able to show me something that says "DT is awsome now, come play!" All I ever see is "archers suck" and "great, yet another melee nerf" and stuff about how DT was good way back when I had just started playing in 2000 but not anymore. So please, you're welcome to convince me that DT is good or tell me why I'm asking a dumb question but I don't need to be yelled at. TYVM.

DarkLegend
01-09-2004, 09:05 PM
I disagree with the fact of the statement "Melee's aren't overpowered in group fights"

That my friend is wrong....let me tell you WHY..

If it is a 3v3 fight, 3 mages vs 3 melee's....you guys have to vuln to 2 things, imp, and your element......

If all 3 of you run at 1 guy and do a full swing, the other 2 have to hit you at the exact same time, NOT to escape death, and thats not including a couple tidbits of information.

300 health + aegis + majors = 100 per hit. Therefore ALL 3 would have to hit u , at the exact same time, for you tto die, otherwise, u'll right....mages don't have heat sinking wars...

Now, on the melee side, 1 obviously is going to be the target, and he's gonna be the one being shot at, leaving 2 vulnerable to pwning the mage. However, remember, if all 3 mages aren't going after the same mage, then its over plain as day..... this would still leave 2 open for attacks, full attacks, not moving, 75-100 per hit, (2-3 seconds per hit) 145 per crit....1/5-10 for upper lvl melee's easy.

5, 3 second hits to a mage, and he's dead. That 5 hits is only actually 2 when you have 3v3....so in 2 hits, per melee, the mage is dead as hell, But, when the mage gets targeted now, he's going to run.

****Sticky*****

Now, this brings me to my point, the stickyness of the situation. The mages can NOT hit a moving target, no way, no how. You however, can chase the mage (you basically already have the quickness higher) and sticky him. Hitting him over, and over. Wait, he jumped spun.....NOW the other melee caught him because he's outa stamina and has to sip a potion, forgot about that.....

Well, this keeps happening, he's not recalling, no way in hell. I mage chasing a melee is a joke. A strength debuff does nothing. Quick / Sprint does nothing saying they're run is already way higher. I run, catch up, streak. By the time i catch you again, you can easily portal, no questions asked. Of course i can run behind you and lvl 1 u 40000 times until u get mad and frustrated enough to fight.

I'm tired of typing now....I agree with his idea btw, but melee's are overpowered in group fights..

Virindi Clown
01-10-2004, 02:36 PM
Dark, a few things were wrong with what you just said. First of all, a bunch of melees are not going to hit a mage on power at the same time. The mage would have to be an idiot to let that happen, because you just move out of the way and you don't get hit. You see three melees coming at you, you don't stand there.

And as for spin jump and multiple melees, well, it lags them all, and they all lose their sticky. People chase by pressing attack, because you move faster, and that is the only way you are going to ever land a hit on someone, anyhow. Therefore, if there are 9 thousand melees after you and you spin jump, they are all going to be lagged.

Losing 200 stamina for a full power spin jump does not drop you to no stamina. Lots of people can do two full power jumps without having to regain stamina.

That's not even the real issue. What you said about taking the time for a stamina elixir is the exact opposite. People don't stop to regain their stamina, they use the spin jump to god mode a bunch of health and stamina elixirs, then just turn around and shoot another war spell.

Melees are too powerful when there are a bunch of them together, but it's not that they kill people outright, it's that they take away the chance to fight back. You just have to run away from them and do whatever you can to keep yourself from being killed, and cannot attack them back in the process. It takes the fun out of it because it usually becomes a stalemate if the person was not off guard and killed while at a disadvantage.

Too much melee power in group fights comes from speed sticky attacks alone, so that is the only thing that needs to be dealt with.