Well, I just got owned by a level 133 melee (on a 138 mage)

[Kurak]

Granted, I am out of practice, but still. I couldn't fast cast properly b/c I get so many messages of "you're too busy", the spells just don't cast, or bogus movement fizzles. All the while the little UA is sliding around, so when my spell does start up, there is so much lag that my char has to turn and change position. At the same time, the UA is critting me for 136 through al 800+ to his element at the least.

Wow Turbine, nice job making the best ganging class also viable 1v1 against a 138 mage.

I might actually give SWG another chance now, although I don't think I'll like it anymore. I suppose the most I can do is level my new mage and then convert him to sword when he's high enough.

[Sito]

So your problem is that soeone who is skilled as melee beat you when you hardly ever play a mage and your not very good at it?

[Virindi Clown]

Ok, so you lagged and you got killed by someone of equal level while wearing armor not equivalent to the level range, and even said yourself you were "out of practice."

What exactly is the problem?

I'm not even too sure about your "ganging" comment, either. Melees can CHASE. That is their advantage. They don't gang up or anything better than anyone else.

The situation where you are most likely to die is a bunch of mages shooting wars out of rending wands at a drop. Even if you recall immediately, you are often killed.

If melees were camping it, there could be 30 of them and you could spin jump your way to safety without much of a problem.

And I don't know, maybe you didn't lag. If you were "out of practice" that would explain move fizzles and failed casts.

That's why people say fast casting takes some skill. It's not the hardest thing in the world, but EXACTLY what you said is what happens when you aren't good at it.

[Oblique]

fast casting shouldn't be part of the game though... it's a glitch, no?

[Virindi Clown]

Current fast casting is what's left of the real thing after a fix.

It might be a glitch, but it's no real exploit like what it is replacing.

AC's movement CANNOT be changed anymore past that for a fix, so I question why anyone is not contempt with it.

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by Virindi Clown
Ok, so you lagged and you got killed by someone of equal level while wearing armor not equivalent to the level range, and even said yourself you were "out of practice."

What exactly is the problem?

I'm not even too sure about your "ganging" comment, either. Melees can CHASE. That is their advantage. They don't gang up or anything better than anyone else.

The situation where you are most likely to die is a bunch of mages shooting wars out of rending wands at a drop. Even if you recall immediately, you are often killed.

If melees were camping it, there could be 30 of them and you could spin jump your way to safety without much of a problem.

And I don't know, maybe you didn't lag. If you were "out of practice" that would explain move fizzles and failed casts.

That's why people say fast casting takes some skill. It's not the hardest thing in the world, but EXACTLY what you said is what happens when you aren't good at it.

The fact that a melee is fast AND can hit so hard through his high *** AL armor is a problem, esp. coupled with sticky melee. Only people that are biased towards melees would say there isn't a problem with the game mechanics. Turbine needs to address this and they have several options:

1. Remove sticky melee
2. Give mages bigger run cast radius
3. Give mages light high AL (450+ base) no drop armor that requires war magic to activate and is enchantable and let weeping weapons be debuffed.

BTW DT lags so much that half the time fast cast isn't even reliable. I was on my newbie lvl 38 char today with a 126+ mage in tow and he kept trying to fast cast at me and was fizzling fizzling fizzling..he finally managed to finish me off with a lucky streak b/c the monkeys on bobo island had already beaten me down to 1/4 health and I got caught up in a lag spike--that's the reality of DT's "skill" for ya.

[Kurak]

"I'm not even too sure about your "ganging" comment, either. Melees can CHASE. That is their advantage. They don't gang up or anything better than anyone else."

I meant chasing of course, and the ability for UA to hit quickly. My problem is that I can't cast properly b/c of lag and "you're too busy messages" and a racial skill that costs 6 to spec, and nothing to train, hit harder than my level 7 war spells. You don't see a problem with this? Granted, the melee was, good, but that's not why I died. I died b/c UA is overpowered.

[Frank The Knife]

A mage who is prepared for a melee will not die to a melee unless the melee is far better at pk than the mage.

Just inept the melee's life and magic d and since they can' gem it off they tend to just run away flameing you in @tells lol.

Sounds like your fastcast and hold cast are not up to par.

[Kurak]

"Sounds like your fastcast and hold cast are not up to par."

Read what I said. My fast cast and hold cast is fine, but I can't do it because of the lag, and because people appear on my screen eradically.

Still, he hit me for 136 twice in a row, and I hit him for 115 at best. He also hit a lot more quickly.

UA is overpowered, as is all melee.

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by Kurak
"Sounds like your fastcast and hold cast are not up to par."

Read what I said. My fast cast and hold cast is fine, but I can't do it because of the lag, and because people appear on my screen eradically.

Still, he hit me for 136 twice in a row, and I hit him for 115 at best. He also hit a lot more quickly.

UA is overpowered, as is all melee.

Well its not just UA, try a sword guy sometime. War magic needs a damage boost as well. Given that we're nearly stationary with the radius restrictions, a war 7 that lands should do at least 250-300 pts damage.

[Kurak]

Originally posted by 5150Joker
Well its not just UA, try a sword guy sometime. War magic needs a damage boost as well. Given that we're nearly stationary with the radius restrictions, a war 7 that lands should do at least 250-300 pts damage.

True, but sword is also a lot more to train/spec. The damage still needs to be lowered, or they could just give mages their old weeping power.

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by Kurak
True, but sword is also a lot more to train/spec. The damage still needs to be lowered, or they could just give mages their old weeping power.

The least they can do is give war a lot more dmg. Hell just look at how much it costs to spec that.

[Peewee Herman]

Mage moaning again, jeez you mages make me laugh :).

Mages have had it good for soooo friggin long i cant remember.

Why you get a little balance closer to MELEE v MAGE and you freak out cause your war is too LOW!! , absolute poppycock! .

A Mage is the most powerful Character in AC and will remain so.

So please no more *****ing about Melee's doing you when pking, skilled Mages always win head down no contest , so you whiny Mages i think you should consider practicing before opening the tiny juvenile mouths .

I REST MY CASE !.

[Kurak]

"Why you get a little balance closer to MELEE v MAGE and you freak out cause your war is too LOW!!"

Your case is flawed, b/c you don't understand the fundamentals of PVP. I assume you are new to the game, and have started playing in the past year or so, and I also assume that you play a melee and more or less PKL is the extent of your PVP experience.

Am I wrong in saying this?

To the point. Melee has other advantages than being a good 1v1 class. First off, it's not supposed to be even close to a mage 1v1. Secondly, UA is 6 credits, war magic is 28. There is a big difference here.

Sword is also 16, and should be the only melee close to war in 1v1, however, these classes are very obviously more powerful at times, and given the fact that they still have their chasing and other abilities (abilities that should never be removed), it would stand to reason that their damage is entirely too high, given the nature of their skill.

[kioskies]

WELL WHAT DO YOU KNOW SOMEONE FIVE LEVELS BELOW YOU KILLED YOU AFTER YOU ADMIT YOU'RE RUSTY, THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END OMFG!!!!!!!!!

[Xantcha]

It seems to me mages want themselves to be the only class capable of solo pking. In my experience playing one of the best melees on the server, anyone wearing a knorr helm or majors under 300 al is in trouble, but people with armor specifically good against melees (400-440 base) are much more difficult. This makes sense: people who prepare themselves against melees do much better against them. I'd like to see a similar dynamic for melees as well, with weepings replaced with tinkered loot gen weapons, but the class balance seems fine. The skill credit argument is so worthless and can be used to argue any point from any perspective. Right now any class has a chance against any other class, both solo and in groups, and that seems balanced to me.

[Care Police]

1. Remove sticky melee
2. Give mages bigger run cast radius
3. Give mages light high AL (450+ base) no drop armor that requires war magic to activate and is enchantable and let weeping weapons be debuffed.


Ok...so basically lets make mages unbeatable like they have been in the past? Seriously you mages have had years of powerhousing and now when it's our turn you cry Turbine a river. Horrible, terrible, ugly, ideals my friend.:(

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by Care Police
Ok...so basically lets make mages unbeatable like they have been in the past? Seriously you mages have had years of powerhousing and now when it's our turn you cry Turbine a river. Horrible, terrible, ugly, ideals my friend.:(

Why would any of that make mages unbeatable? You seriously believe if we were given a wider casting range (not all out god mode range) and/or high AL mage armor it would all of a sudden render melees obsolete? Not by a longshot my friend, it would simply add more balance as is needed.

[Kurak]

Originally posted by 5150Joker
Why would any of that make mages unbeatable? You seriously believe if we were given a wider casting range (not all out god mode range) and/or high AL mage armor it would all of a sudden render melees obsolete? Not by a longshot my friend, it would simply add more balance as is needed.

Exactly, it would put mages back in there place as the best 1v1 class. Even DT melees don't understand this, which is too bad. Melees already have the ability to chase, and other abilities added to 1v1 power makes them overpowered. Melees are the ones that complain too much, as they want the best of the both worlds.

Would you be happy if everyone rerolled a melee? It's going to happen, as there's less and less point to playing a mage.

Mages are not support characters in AC PVP, get over it. In AC PVP, melees are support. If you don't like that, go play DAoC.

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by Kurak
Exactly, it would put mages back in there place as the best 1v1 class. Even DT melees don't understand this, which is too bad. Melees already have the ability to chase, and other abilities added to 1v1 power makes them overpowered. Melees are the ones that complain too much, as they want the best of the both worlds.

Would you be happy if everyone rerolled a melee? It's going to happen, as there's less and less point to playing a mage.

Mages are not support characters in AC PVP, get over it. In AC PVP, melees are support. If you don't like that, go play DAoC.

Yep I agree.

[Xantcha]

In AC PVP, melees are support. If you don't like that, go play DAoC.

It appears you're just delusional. They were support during the "Mage's Call" era, but have since been balanced where they can hold their own. Perhaps it's about time you realized this? Sticky melee/chasing are both not terribly effective in most situations against someone who has any idea whatsoever how to jumpspin, so I'd hate to view that as a melee advantage unless jumpspin were completely removed, which would be an awful decision in my opinion. I wouldn't have a problem with removing the movement restrictions, though. Having played a mage also extensively I feel the pain of those who have half their spells fizzle due to no fault of their own. Adding both slidecasting and slidehealing back into the game seems beneficial.

[Kurak]

Originally posted by Xantcha
It appears you're just delusional. They were support during the "Mage's Call" era, but have since been balanced where they can hold their own. Perhaps it's about time you realized this? Sticky melee/chasing are both not terribly effective in most situations against someone who has any idea whatsoever how to jumpspin, so I'd hate to view that as a melee advantage unless jumpspin were completely removed, which would be an awful decision in my opinion. I wouldn't have a problem with removing the movement restrictions, though. Having played a mage also extensively I feel the pain of those who have half their spells fizzle due to no fault of their own. Adding both slidecasting and slidehealing back into the game seems beneficial.

I'm not the delusional one. The "mages call" era was actually only before hollows came into play. Then it was UA + Mages call. And even if sticky isn't always effective, it's still effective enough, and it's very strong. The fact is, melee costs less, has other advantages, and is a character that has always been played differently. Mages should, and probably always will be, the best 1v1. Changing that would turn the game into "melee's call" which would be just as bad.

[Virindi Clown]

Here is the problem:

Unarmed is still a billion times too powerful for its skill cost. The only change there has been made to that since the game came out is that sword now slightly rivals it.

The aegis has too much high end power, especially when coupled with wards and the high magic defense someone would already have to make good use of it.

It should be limited to 10%, as it is a quest item and protects against all elements. 25% is completely insane. That blows majors out of the water, which are almost impossible to get, much less good ones.

War does not need a damage increase. I am sick and tired of people saying that.

You are obviously not thinking one bit if that comes out of your mouth.

If wars did 250-300 damage, this would be one fine game.

Ever thought of the fact that YOU mages whining about that would be hit for that much damage, not just the melees?

Put a streak on top of that and you could kill probably 90% of DT instantly.

The issue with war magic damage is the high end of the aegis and that alone.

[Frank The Knife]

Some of the melee's that have that max aegis ability get torn up by archers and other melee's. The template does nothing but make them mage killers. They suffer in melee pvp and pvm unless they have most of their skills maxed out.

[nuke2033]

gb2ff

If you think mages are underpowered, you need to put the crack pipe down and learn how to play.

[Care Police]

Originally posted by 5150Joker
Why would any of that make mages unbeatable? You seriously believe if we were given a wider casting range (not all out god mode range) and/or high AL mage armor it would all of a sudden render melees obsolete? Not by a longshot my friend, it would simply add more balance as is needed.

Mages already do 150+ damage without vulning if they are holding a freakin' rending wand, and ya I have majors to protect against those and high endurance to have some potential natural protections against them. Now if mages had armor 450 base...wtf? My weeping would do a good ol 20+- damage a pop with the vulns I would have to do. So you think the only way to balance something is to make mages have high as heck base AL, wide range of casting so they can just whore off of the lag to cast spells not to mention the jump spin FIASCO. It's not fair for only one class being viable in PvP. I admit on DT it's either sword of mage, but, that doesn't mean one class should dominate all others. More balance would be to fix the lag, fix gemming, and let DT UCM.

Lets take this into example:

Yesterday...I was fighting a level 84 BM against my level 69 :D sword. I cast imperil V and blade vuln V, he doesn't vuln me...using a bludge rending wand. He's in sharded GSC and in two hits I do an average of 80 total damage, in one hit from him, he did 185, naturally I have to heal so I run and whore the hallways than he starts harming me to death with VII's and all...luckily I could get out of range and heal somewhat before the monsters trap me and I can't run or anything...My two hits would equate to him casting once, he does more damage but it takes a little longer than my swings. Mages are only rendered hopeless against a freakin maxed out melee with an aegis and majors. Mages are a powerhouse still, melees now have a chance, and mages are now listening to Justin Timberlake too much and the river is turning into an ocean of tears. Oh...and I did die in that battle because unlike what you think, melees are NOT overpowered. Mages still rule the world, melees should be more than just support. And why should mages get benefits that others can't? I've never heard a more REDICULOUS solution than giving mages armor that is so high and light. Mages two hit people, melees take a few hits depending on the level they are fighting and that's not right, it's not right. The only way a melee can PvP is with a weeping, mages don't necesarrily need one at all. Armor rending swords on a debuffed person does 1-7, rending wands...170+.

[Sabu]

A melee can run from a group of mages ganking whereas a mage (typically) cannot run away from a melee. Add to that , that it is pretty hard to hit someone running away when ur casting and Melees have a pretty nice bonus going for them pvp wise.

[nuke2033]

*looks at ^ signature*

WE....nuff said

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by Care Police
Mages already do 150+ damage without vulning if they are holding a freakin' rending wand, and ya I have majors to protect against those and high endurance to have some potential natural protections against them. Now if mages had armor 450 base...wtf? My weeping would do a good ol 20+- damage a pop with the vulns I would have to do. So you think the only way to balance something is to make mages have high as heck base AL, wide range of casting so they can just whore off of the lag to cast spells not to mention the jump spin FIASCO. It's not fair for only one class being viable in PvP. I admit on DT it's either sword of mage, but, that doesn't mean one class should dominate all others. More balance would be to fix the lag, fix gemming, and let DT UCM.


LOL funny you mention the rending wand, I got RESISTED by a lvl 100 melee when i had him down to 10 hp - and he wasn't even fully buffed! So lets not even go there. AL 450 base armor for mages would be a perfect balance against swords with weeping. You think 20 a shot is low damage or something? Considering how fast swords hit, 20 a shot is damn deadly, esp. if you crit around 100+. Since your sword char is still low lvl, wait till you max your sword or get close like most of the guys on DT - its ridiculous. Having a wider casting range wouldn't shift pvp balance at all, it would simply give it more balance since a mage can rarely flee from a melee hitting him for 20-30 a pop since lagtides gives the nice "your movement has cancelled ur spell" b.s.

Speaking of stories:

When I first got back into AC and hadn't adapted to the new gimped out mechanics, I was fighting this sword character and he crits me twice for 120, I had to god mode elixirs like mad just to heal. So when I told him while running, "wow lame, 2 crits for 120 in a row" his answer was, "meh thats too low compared to usual".


BTW your story is a perfect example of why mage is gimped. He hit you with one war and you ran like hell and healed up and there's not a damn thing he could do about it. If he had a wider casting range, at least he could've (and should have) finished you off with a runcast war. If the roles were reversed and you crit him a few times and he tried running in those hallways, u would've owned him thanks to sticky melee. Even if he god mode elixirs it likely wouldn't have been enough.

[Kurak]

Update - I fought the same UA guy in better armor and owned him. I also fought a better UA and owned him, but I had very little lag.

Sword, however, is still pretty devastating, and UA is a bit too strong for it's kill level.

[WhiteOleander]

UA and SWORD are fine how they are

The problems with this game right now are just war damage vs HI-END AEGIS, and archer damage overall. If those two were fixed this game would be completely balanced but that is not going to happen for sometime.

There is one issue though, ARMOR. You can't be a no-drop mage on dt anymore unless your addicted to being owned by melees. There is different equipment and quest items one has to get for each class and the mage class requires tinked armor and a rending wand at least. Think of the damage difference there would be if you had your trim(helm, gaunts, sollerets)and your main armor fully tinked.

Imagine it no more melee's hitting for 50 against your hauberk then suddenly a 150 crit on your gaunts. You would actually make a melee work for the kill, and if you lamed(not suggesting anybody do that) you would be untouchable. There are just some things some temps need to be great in PVP and for mages it includes 5000 steel.

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by WhiteOleander
UA and SWORD are fine how they are

The problems with this game right now are just war damage vs HI-END AEGIS, and archer damage overall. If those two were fixed this game would be completely balanced but that is not going to happen for sometime.

There is one issue though, ARMOR. You can't be a no-drop mage on dt anymore unless your addicted to being owned by melees. There is different equipment and quest items one has to get for each class and the mage class requires tinked armor and a rending wand at least. Think of the damage difference there would be if you had your trim(helm, gaunts, sollerets)and your main armor fully tinked.

Imagine it no more melee's hitting for 50 against your hauberk then suddenly a 150 crit on your gaunts. You would actually make a melee work for the kill, and if you lamed(not suggesting anybody do that) you would be untouchable. There are just some things some temps need to be great in PVP and for mages it includes 5000 steel.


Or they could just give mages a bigger runcast radius and none of what you wrote would be neccessary.

[WhiteOleander]

I don't mind you quoting me but you don't gotta quote the ENTIRE thing.

Please no more about run cast, it is such a dead issue and you are the ONLY one advocating for its return. Who cares about run-casting? It is so obscure and I would rather the DEVS actually helped mages VS the HI END AEGIS, and bows damage overall then them to bring back run casting.

You might have been l33t at one time at run casting but its time to adapt. I used to be one of the best mages on the server in 1v1(mageVSmage) before power-strafing now I absolutely blow and I had to learn how to powerstrafe(I still suck at mageVSmage because of it but I don't ***** about it).

Move on PLZ

[5150Joker]

I don't see why you're so against runcast. I'm not asking for godmode range, simply a wider range than we got now. At least one enough to take about 20 steps forward without a movement error msg. Oh and I have adapted and this form of pk where everyone is virtually standing still aside from a bit of strafing and lucky fast cast timing is gay as hell.

[Virindi Clown]

I don't think they can put in "partial" run cast. Besides, wouldn't that eat up all your stamina? I was pretty sure it involved something like mashing the space bar...

The comment about mages not being able to run when a melee can...spin jump, anyone? Not only can you run, you can just hit your reset button and god mode some elixirs, jumping back in while the melee is at a disadvantage.

Part of this problem may be the lack of a quick healing spell such as lower level stamina to health spells.

How about instead of just nerfing them altogether, they just get a balanced limit?

They WERE too powerful for their levels before, but people didn't hit eachother so freakin hard without weeping weapons, so it has become problematic.

So, some simple fixes:

Limit aegis the aegis to 15%. I'd say 10% if there were some form of loot item that could only rarely reach 15%, but I doubt that is worth the effort.

Make decent armor drop so people don't run around in inferior stuff complaining about how they are smacked down by weapons balanced for armor FROM MORE THAN A YEAR AGO.

Fix lower level stamina to health spells. Slightly weaken them where it is necessary so that people can't get full health just because they have crazy stamina.

Take UA's crazy extra speed away. That's like a 25% DoT increase. It already gets the skill bonus and the weeping has a 50% damage variance for only 6 credits to spec. It is nuts to make it faster than anything else in the game on top of that.

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by Virindi Clown
I don't think they can put in "partial" run cast. Besides, wouldn't that eat up all your stamina? I was pretty sure it involved something like mashing the space bar...


Yes it does eat up your stamina, all they'd have to do is give a wider range for movement and reduce stam drain. In fact, if there is a stam drain penalty (just not as drastic as one now), doing a run cast like that would be a double edged sword and a way to balance it out nicely IMO. As for your other points, I pretty much agree.

[WhiteOleander]

Maybe you don'tn realize this but Virindi Clown is a well respected person on these boards and also a melee IG. He never flames but tends to actually post a good point.

You however (BurgeAside) are unknown and unwanted, get off my boards.

Care police, you won't be able to take out a BM higher level than you at your level. Especially since 80+ mages can cast all level 7 protects. He would have 300 base war, and therefore would max out his rending wand and being hit by him(if hes holding a rending wand)would be the equivelant of getting hit by a 7 war with a 6 vuln.

Since you are level 69 this doesn't render you obsolete against someone your level but you can't expect to beat any mage by vulning with 5's if there lvl 80+(although I applaud the fact that you actually tried, alot of n00bs on DT are pussys when it comes to fighting). The fact is the BM temp at lvl 80 has 300 base war and life, thats why he was able to vuln, harm, and cast all lvl 7's on you.

Unarmed Combat is not overpowered and is right where the Devs want it or they would not have beefed its weeping. You can be another weapon other than UA but the game mechanics for how hard you hit with staff, spear, mace, axe ETC are different from the mechanics of UA. Your UA skill is dependant on how much strength and coordination your character has. Have we all forgotten what strength does for UA? How hard you hit with UA is dependant on Half skill/half strength. Since you swing faster you crit more, and since UA has the strength modifier you get bonuses to how much you hit for. Have you ever wondered why the UA phantom has a 0 variance?

The problem with sword does not really occur until you get around to the 110+ level(s). Then with the fact that you have a huge skill, decent magic d(enough to get a decent damage reduction on the Aegis), 300+ health, buffing/vulning with 7's, and you most definitely can equip a weeping sword is where the problem lies. Then getting hit for 150 is not a big deal because all you have to do is run half way across the radar and hit the healing buttons twice. You will also notice that you tend to hit harder than a mage when you crit.

I didn't mean to pick you out of the crowd care police but you need to know there is a difference between fighting at your level and my level.

Yes, mages are underpowered, war has stayed the same for almost 3 1/2 years but from what base sword damage was originally compared to what it is now it has gone up 250%. You might counter argue, well armor AL's have definitely gotten higher. Well, the actual resistance war has to chomp through has gone up 50% and there has been no war upgrade. Everything might have been fine with Aegis if the affect was not stackable but it is. Aegis was made so when a mage hit someone he didnt hit for higher than 170 therefore giving them a chance to not die from 2 wars. Unfortunately, you have to hit people 3x in a row these days WITHOUT MAJORS.

You might say, well all those temps designed to kill mages(the 100 strength/endurance/coordination, sword/resist ones)can't beat any other temps 1v1.

I say, "Logic Train, oops just missed it"

A lvl 250 sword/resist like I have described would have no problem killing any other temp. The temp would have melee d, and it wouldn't even need missle d because it would hit the archer EVERY TIME. Another melee would be able to vuln, but would get resisted 2x, just enough so the "MAGE KILLER" temp can already be swinging at it. You also can't evade without a wand out and unless your UA your not going to evade him if you got your weapon out.