Comment on the subscription change and new world here. [Archive]

Angelina_Jolie

01-12-2004, 03:00 PM

Ive been playing this game since Beta. IMO there is no need for a new server at this point. personally I think they should keep the subscript fee the same and scrap the new server idea there is no need for it. I have 3 accounts myself right now and I'm barely staying with the game. Its been over 3 months since I logged in to actually play (not just pay rent) If I'm going to have to add the equivalent of ANOTHER account to keep my 3 going I hardly play at this point due to lack of content. I think I might just drop all 3 accounts altogether. I'm trying to stay on to see the new Expansion will add the "zest" Ac used to have back. but this might be "the straw that broke the camels back" for me. I know a few people with multiple accounts that are in the same boat. What they could do that might "entice" users to stay is if they pooled that money and worked to remedy the huge lagg issue. I play FFXI also and as I understand their servers are based over seas (Hong Kong IM in US) and there is virtually 0 lagg in that game. The ONLY time I lagg is when I'm at the Auction House with over 60+people there even then its only 1/4 of the lagg I get on a good day in AC.

I think this will end up hurting them over all with the amount of people that might quit at this point in time. since allot of the Old Schoolers are getting bored of the game after 4+ years.

So all in all. They REALLY need to Step the game up in the next few months or they are going to lose allot of people.

/end Rant
Angie.

Ibn

01-12-2004, 03:03 PM

The information I hinted at regarding XP chains is now up.

Read it here. (http://ac.turbinegames.com/index.php?page_id=157)

Sweex

01-12-2004, 03:03 PM

Regarding making the game available to new players -- we are working on this, and we hope to be able to provide more information soon. -Ibn

If you are planning on making it available for new players.... Im planning on returning to AC, dont have a cd-key/account anymore since it was of a close friend who is using it again

i am now looking through stores/webshops everywhere to find a copy... by making it available !!! Will Turbine also start shipping cd's/cd-keys again ?

little off topic question: are there any possible paying methods availeble to a european person... without a credit card!! (Thanks ;))

-Sweex-

Hamlit

01-12-2004, 03:10 PM

Been with you all since Beta 2, and it's been a great time; however, I do not feel that a price increase is justified at this time and have cancelled my subscription and will wait to see what sort of impact losing some of your long-standing customer base has.

I am disappointed in the manner in which you have handled this and would have expected to see an official e-mail first rather than reading about it on a message-board with an option to cancel built-in to the e-mail. Not only would this have provided a more customer-service centered approach, but would also have given you a better forecast of revenue projections.

Farewell, I'm off to try some new games.

Autumn's Dawn

01-12-2004, 03:11 PM

Any chance of getting a price discount for having multiple accounts? There are a lot of families who have four or more accounts so everyone can play.

Hubbell

01-12-2004, 03:13 PM

I've been saying for just over a year or so now, the expansion will come out 3rd or 4th quarter 2004.

Luminescent

01-12-2004, 03:14 PM

Any word if Decal Apps will be allowed on this world?

The XP change is a great addition, but not enough of a reason for me to move to a new server. If you make it so Decal or other apps are not allowed, this will greatly increase the interest on using the server, in my opinion of course.

underpaidmexica

01-12-2004, 03:26 PM

been playing since day1 and have put up with your **** and living with it enjoying the game the whole time. Now this and the xp chain nerf and i dont even use xp chains. Congrats you just lost 4 more accounts thanks for being there for your long term players its glad to know we were important to microsoft but turbine didnt give a damn about us.

Honest John

01-12-2004, 03:27 PM

Someof the other games sell subscription cards you buy in the stores to pay for your monthy subscription. This allows those with no credit card to play. I think this would be a great option and gains more visability for the game.

Please consider this option

tzantali

01-12-2004, 03:28 PM

i'd much rather see time and money going into reducing lag issues than updating the graphics.

Keep Trade Guy

01-12-2004, 03:30 PM

(1) Why an extra server/world? Total player numbers have dwindled drastically, from 20k at a time to 8k+/-. If there's playability problems on the current servers, fix them. Save your capital cash for other things, on the revenue or expenditure side.

(2) Will games be available retail again? A key rejuvenation aspect is new folks coming in. I mean "new," not bob redoing a character and power-leveling it to 50. Game interaction was really hurt when starter towns stopped accepting higher-value loot--that change separated the new folks from the veterans. Lack of new folks altogether made that further pronounced.

Expended Soul

01-12-2004, 03:33 PM

"Any word if Decal Apps will be allowed on this world?"

There is no way for the client to tell if you're running Decal or not.

Honest John

01-12-2004, 03:34 PM

Why a new world? There current servers are well below their peek capacities from several years ago. As said in a prior thread, it costs over $100,000 to set up a new world. Are you really expecting that large of a new player rush, before an expansion is out? I am sure some will change to a new server just to be in a world with no XP chains, but unless UCM is somehow controled, as well as other exploits, it will just take a little longer before things are out of wack again.

Why not invest the 100K in upgraded hareware for the existing servers, improved customer service team, enforcement of the COC, etc and wait for the new world untill the expansion release?

Or, are you doing both?

-Palom-

01-12-2004, 03:37 PM

you just earned yourself an extra $15/mo from my families accounts. Great work guys =).

Luminescent

01-12-2004, 03:38 PM

I agree with the last post, you are spending money on areas that dont matter, listen to your players before u do anything that YOU think is good. What matters more? Things the staff wants, or your thousands upon thousands of subscribers? We dont care about a new server, we care about enforcing the CoC, no more of this UCM 1 week ban stuff, just get rid of them. Take the money and spend it where we need it. A new server is pointless, unless u can give me a good idea for it?

Stupner_TD

01-12-2004, 03:40 PM

WIthout new subscribers what's the point of a new server? You can't buy this game in stores. Its not marketed to attract new blood. Your waisting your time and our money.

Stupner_TD

01-12-2004, 03:43 PM

Have you even stopped to consider that you'll be loosing money? How you ask? When everyone drops there 2nd 3rd 4th account when the price jumps thats how!!! For the price of 3 dollars you'll loose 10 yup thats good business management there.....

kgober

01-12-2004, 03:43 PM

I agree that the price increase will hit multiple-account players hard.

If someone has three accounts, that's $30 per month right now, going up to $39. So, this increase is like asking them to pay for an extra account every month, except they don't get to actually use it.

I pay for four accounts, which means my monthly bill will go up from $40 to $52. If I could afford five accounts, I assure you I would *have* five accounts. I now have a difficult decision ahead of me, to decide which account to terminate. The result of this decision will be that:

1. Turbine gets $39 per month, rather than $40 (you lose one dollar per month)
2. I get three accounts, rather than four (I lose 5 characters)

Since the amount of time I actually play won't be affected (my play time is determined by real-life issues, not by the number of accounts I have), the load I place on the servers and the bandwidth I consume will remain the same. Therefore the reduction in accounts will *not* result in any significant reduction of costs. I believe this can be considered a lose-lose situation.

-ken

Stupner_TD

01-12-2004, 03:49 PM

Just remember World of Warcraft Online is coming soon !!! among others and your doing nothing to keep what player base you have except run them off

Magik Brute of

01-12-2004, 03:51 PM

Thanks for the game......

I will probly contine to play one account but as for me keeping my 5 accounts open that is just not going to happen. I MIGHT have 2 accounts after this as I am Canadian an already paying $15./per account/month. And that is anywhere from $65-75 per month depending on the exchange rate...now its more likley to be $100-125 per month. So I will reduce down to 2 accounts. So you will go from $50.00 a month from me to $25.00 from me. I have a feeling that MANY people with Multiple accounts will do the same. So insted of increasing your revenues your actually going to decrease them.

Luminescent

01-12-2004, 03:53 PM

Ibn, please post thoughts and reasons for our questions, believe me they are much wanted and needed.

Stupner_TD

01-12-2004, 03:58 PM

I'll be dropping my 2nd account

sylphia

01-12-2004, 04:04 PM

OK here we go.

By changing the allegiance system, all you are doing is the same thing you have done countelss times: change or remove something to "create balance", while leaving the original in the hands of all who already had it. Perfect examples: PP GSA and Mattie Robes. You removed the ability to get these items from the playerbase, because you felt at the time that those with these items had unfair advantages over those who didnt, even though anyone who wanted one could go out and get them themselves, with enough time and patience. The problem was, you left the ones already in the game, IN THE GAME. Which meant that the "older" players still had them, and could charge whatever they wanted if they chose to sell them. Meanwhile, the ones who didnt have them couldnt GET them anymore, leaving the first set of players (the Haves) with a distinct advantage of the second set of players (the Have-Nots) that couldnt be rectified, thus scewing the balance much further.

Now you want to remove the ability to chain, in order to make it easier to provide balanced content, level the playing field on, well, leveling, etc. The problem is that chains have already been in use for 3+ years. The advantage of being in a chain has already been soaked by HUNDREDS of players. The teams of lvl 126+ toons are ALREADY out there. Removing the chains doesnt undo any perceived imbalance. Or perhaps you figure we will balance it ourselves, when all of the folks from before the change quit? And shame on you if you even consider trying to remove levels or XP earned from before the change. I have never used a chain in my life, and i PROMISE you that if a single point of XP were to disappear off of one of my toons, all 6 of the accounts in this house would be canceled, followed by most of the rest of my clan when I quit this game.

I cana appreciate that there is alot of thought and design in the new allegiance system. It encourages a stronger patron/vassal relationship. The problem is that it monkeys with existing clans' way of doing things. I started my clan about 6 months intot he game. I was never really big on the whole XP thing; I always earned far more XP form my own hunting than my vassals could ever give me. You know, back BEFORE hunting became the most boring, tedious thing you can do in the game. Eventually, my vassals recruited vassals, and THEY recruited vassal, etc. However, no matter WHO each new toon was sworn to, I made it a point to get to know them, and I always considered them MY vassals too, even if they werent sworn to one of my toons directly. In other words, I did what a monarch "should" do; I looked after ALL of my followers, taught them what I knew, and helped them every chance I go. Pretty soon, I had little time for hunting, even when I wanted to. I was spending most of my time in-game organizing clan things and helping folowers. But it was ok, cos I LIKED doing it, and besides, I always got a piece of the pie no matter where they were sworn in.

In the new system, the further down the tiers a follower is, the less incentive a monarch has to pay any attention to them, at least from an in-game rewards stance. Not to mention that this change wont really stop XP whoring; it will only shift the focus. Players are still going to recruit solely for XP. The difference is that they will now make sure he new guy is sworn directly to them, where they get maximum benefit, rather than further down the line, where others could benefit from it as well. The greed of the individual will override the former benefits to the many.

Another note on the allegiance changes. I hope you plan on introducing some way to level trade toons with reasonable amount of time invested in it. The best way, currently to produce a really good trade toon is to swear other toons to them. Currently, you can slip the toon into a "chain" and not have it create a great deal of impact on the other toons if it never gets its own XP. Under the new system, it will require players to get multiple toons sworn to it for real effect, therby encouraging folks to recruit solely for XP again. Trying to make a toon both combat worthy AND a viable trade toon simply isnt practical. I dont want 5 semi-gimped toons, each devoting some skill credits to a particular trade. I want ONE toon that does it all properly and doesnt HAVE to worry about conmbat-worthiness. The system in AC2 worked well, in that trade skills didnt rely on our precious skill credits to learn, and didnt require XP to master; only repetition (like the EQ system does). Tedium in itw own right, but at least tradeskills didnt hamper combat skills, or vice versa.

Then lets look at macros. By removing chains, you remove a prime source of XP for those who choose to use it. The folks who were macroing will no longer have this as a second source of XP. so they will spend even MORE time macroing to make up for it, possibly in higher-content dungeons. I hope you have something in place to deal with this. The macroers have done far more harm than chains ever could; and i mean something BETTER than your current way of dealing with them.

Subscription costs. Well I must say this IS long overdue. Your timing is very very bad. You are making a HUGE fundamental change to the game, which yo HAVE to know WILL cause a large number of folks to quit. This looks alot like an attempt to shore up your income from the folks willing to stick it out, to compensate for that loss. The rise in cost would have been much better timed a few months AFTER this change, and when the new expansion is looking more like an upcoming event than a pipe-dream. Then you have something to show the player base, that is well received by the majority, rather than a highly controversial issue like chains. "Ok folks, we are gonna nerf chains, even though all the perceived damage is already done. Oh and BTW, for a kick inthe teeth, those of you that stick around are going to pay more per month now, too!" As I said, the increase in price IS long overdue, but your timing could not have been worse.

Changes to the ID screen. Removing leadership/loyalty doesnt bother me; like I said its never been ahigh priority to me. But the addition of a toons DoB is a VERY bad idea. Franly, its no one's business how long my toon has been in-game, or how long it took me to get to lvl X. If I want them to know, I will tell them. Giving the players the ability to see, at a glance, if a toon is pre-chain or post-chain wil lonly create an unnecessary rift. Anti's seeing a pre-chain toon at lvl 126 will assume they chained their way up to it, whether they did or not. Old timers seeing a recent-birth toon will assume they are a noob and their views are unimportant. There is no GOOD reason to add this. All it will do is foster hate and grudges. Honestly, WHY would we need to see anyone else's DoB?

Of course I am wasting my time, since you have proven in the past that, by the time you post something, its far too late too make any changes, no matter how badly we all know its is going to bork the system.

War-Wizard-HG

01-12-2004, 04:18 PM

Ibn i would like to know where these "Cost" increases are coming from.

Hardware prices are at an all-time low, cost bandwidth has gone down a ton over the past year. I Know this since i work for an ISP. And im sorry to say but foreign labour is cheap.

Unless we see massive improvments related to the fee hike whats in it for us?

You are changing a huge way the game has been played since release. "exploit early, exploit often continues to be the Turbine Motto".

Are you guys trying to kill AC off as we know it ? The bigest mistake any new business owner makes is making huge changes.

You are pissing off the customer base and you wont get it back. There are far to many games that are coming out or were just released. Can we say WoW, Horizions, Ninth Domain & EQ2 just to name a few.

We get far to little support right now for the $9.95 a month, again i ask what are we going to get for the fee hike?

Better admin support? I can report UCM's tell im blue in the face and i never get a reply back. Server lag(I know its server since people on 5 different backbones all report it all over the server & IRC continues to work while im red linking on AC).

I can see raising the price AFTER AC 1.5 comes out, but before with no new features, support, or updated servers? Whats the bonus for us other than helping fill your coffers?

Cypher300

01-12-2004, 04:20 PM

How long did everyone think they were going to be able to get away with paying $10/month??

Things to remember about running an online company:

1) Expansion pack in the making. The largest part of this is a graphics upgrade (among other things). This involves, bare minimum, programmers and graphic artists. Of course there are expenses to think of like: equipment upgrades, manager salaries, pay increases, benefits, etc etc etc.

2) Server storage fees. Now, I'm not sure who paid for the server CoLo. But, I can tell you after working in a datacenter company for 7 yesrs, it ain't cheap. Not only that, but who knows where the cost differentials were? Now that Turbine owns Asheron's Call, they also own ALL of the overhead to maintain it. MS weren't just silent partners.

3) Distribution. You want a new round of boxed CD's available for new blood? Something pretty at Best Buy to get people to purchase the game? That costs money.

4) Other games in development. Face it, our monthly fees are probably going to a general pool to pay for, not only AC, but for other games too.

Prices go up guys. It's a fact of life.

Turbine: I'm more than willing the pay an extra $2.50 a month ($5 for both accounts) to keep playing a game I consistently come back to. I'm just surprised it didn't happen sooner.

Alska

Syrlacc

01-12-2004, 04:27 PM

I am really surprised by how many people are expressing concern about the new server and the XP chain nerf here.

- Turbine just raised some 18 million dollars in funding. Adding one little $100,000 server isn't going to hurt them one bit, especially since there are many former players who have quit over chaining issues that will return to start over on this new, clean world. I will certainly play there. The new server is not being added because the other ones are overcrowded, but because there are many people who refuse to play on the old ones.

- On the existing servers, the damage appears to have been done already, but don't be so sure. AC2's high level game is completely different from the low level gameplay. I would not be surprised if they implemented something similar in AC1, where a level 250 player would essentially be at no advantage over a level 126 player. What's more important, players will once again congregate in "true allegiances" not bunches of anonymous individuals who share nothing but the greed for free XP (I know, I've been there)

- We're getting allegiance chat, which is HUGE! For the first time you can no simply type in "/a Hey, I would like to run Aerlinthe, anyone interested?" - no need for posting on a message board. Especially on patch day this system will be great at coordinating where new content is, etc.

- "Fix the problems on the existing servers first" - I am sure they are working on it. Zyrca has already said that there is the potential to convert the entire chat system to Turbine chat, which will decrease load on the game servers and might reduce lag. They might upgrade the engine to take advantage of more modern graphics and sound hardware to improve visuals without causing more lag; in fact, lag might be decreased. Who knows what else they will be able to pull off now that they have complete control of the franchise, including the hardware.

- Admin support. This is still under MS control, and will probably improve once Turbine takes over. It's much better in AC2 than AC1 already, and should improve even further in both games as we go along.

I am very thrilled about these changes, and am looking forward to some great times for the entire AC franchise.

Morgeneshg

01-12-2004, 04:45 PM

I think an AC emote sums this up really well *smackhead*

Turbine: What were you thinking? Why announce these two things on the same day when they take place a month apart?

And as for the fee increase for the XP... That is what all that venture capital you have is for. You use that to build the XP, then you charge us the normal 'new game' fee of $50 USD to regain the money you spent, and some profit.

As for the whole concept of an increase in fees... I agree with WarWizard... the costs of everything are down... and some can be lowered even further? how can you need more money? and did you do a survey to see how the fee increase will affect people's memberships? At least 75% of the people I know in AC have multiple accounts. Many of them are now telling me they are debating keeping them going... I don't suppose there was any market research done before this decision was made?

So, umm, besides my no longer getting XP from my great grandvassals, what's in the pricehike for me?

Morgenes, HG

sylphia

01-12-2004, 04:45 PM

Just so you know, Cypher, I am not picking on you, but youahve raised some points that need to be adressed on both sides.

Originally posted by Cypher300
How long did everyone think they were going to be able to get away with paying $10/month??

Things to remember about running an online company:

1) Expansion pack in the making. The largest part of this is a graphics upgrade (among other things). This involves, bare minimum, programmers and graphic artists. Of course there are expenses to think of like: equipment upgrades, manager salaries, pay increases, benefits, etc etc etc.

2) Server storage fees. Now, I'm not sure who paid for the server CoLo. But, I can tell you after working in a datacenter company for 7 yesrs, it ain't cheap. Not only that, but who knows where the cost differentials were? Now that Turbine owns Asheron's Call, they also own ALL of the overhead to maintain it. MS weren't just silent partners.

3) Distribution. You want a new round of boxed CD's available for new blood? Something pretty at Best Buy to get people to purchase the game? That costs money.

4) Other games in development. Face it, our monthly fees are probably going to a general pool to pay for, not only AC, but for other games too.

Prices go up guys. It's a fact of life.

Turbine: I'm more than willing the pay an extra $2.50 a month ($5 for both accounts) to keep playing a game I consistently come back to. I'm just surprised it didn't happen sooner.

Alska

(1) We have extremely vague notes on what MAY be in the Expansion. So far, the only thing confirmed is that we will have an increase to graphics; HOW good is even sketchy. We dont even have a general timeframe; we dont even have a YEAR of release, much less a month. We have no idea what kind of content we will be receiving in the new expansion. As I have said in previous threads, I am willing to up my supscription costs to help fund this project, but I want to have SOME idea of what I am investing in, first. As for expenses, the expansion pack itself wont be free. You invest in a project with your own funds, based on projections of what it will earn you in return in the form of after-sale revenues.

(2) Turbine CHOSE to make this purchase. Notice that the player base wasnt consulted in this. Technically, we really dont need to be, since it is a purely business thing. But the cost to implement rests solely on the shoulders of the company. By itself, it doesnt justify (to the customer) raising subscriptions. The custopmer doesnt care where a server is located, so long as we can log in without problems, are lag free, and able to stay connected. All of which have been problems for a very long time.

(3) Once again, the post-sale covers that. Their own funds are invested. Even so, I am willing to help the push a bit, since I look at myself as somethign of an investor in the game and company. I dont receive monetary compensation for when the company is doing good, but I get it in the form of content and more ppl to interact with.

(4) I dont give a rat's butt about other games they may be developing. Thats what those millions of dollars in funding was FOR. I am not paying for AC1 just so they can create bombs like AC2; a bomb that wouldnt have happened if they had listened to us in Beta. I am not paying for them to develop and market D&D or Middle Earth or whatever new deal they are working on. I am paying for new content on THIS game, better CoC enforcement, less lag, expansion, or any other development that directly benefits my time in THIS game. Again, as such I am willing to pay a little more for my subscription. As I said before, this increase IS long overdue, but the timing AND lack of visible incentive make this a bad idea AT THIS TIME. Coulpe t with the change to the allegiance system that we KNOW will cost us players, and it looks very much like trying to plug a hole in a leaky boat.

pacesetter

01-12-2004, 04:46 PM

I'm not sure if there is a true fix for things like rebalancing and xp chains, but if the silly decisions that actually do nothing to fix it keep coming, the extra money may not be worth it.

weeps are NOT fixed, Chains will now just be 12 actives wide rather than one and there is NO ROOM for mules or inactives!!!

The archer nerf was rediculous, the mage nerf hurt mages but really didn't help anyone, etc etc.

Now they are raising the cost 33% per month to continually get MY game worsened!!!!! And WHY?? because of people that exploit the game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know you guys are really trying to make AC the best game out there but PLEASE stop nerfing the good guys!!!!

BAN the BAD GUYS !!

Ibn

01-12-2004, 04:46 PM

There are a lot of questions on here that we're not ready to answer just yet -- we should be making an annoucement regarding a Dev Chat soon, and many of your questions should get answered there.

Regulater

01-12-2004, 04:56 PM

I want to say congrats to turbine.

I have not played in two years because of these xp chains and people macroing and no one doing **** about it. There are pro's and con's with what you are doing.

Con's

1.) You will lose some people who dont want it play this game enless they can be uber and chain XP all day.

2.)You will lose many players with more then one account.

3.)On servers like DT(which is were I used to play) the damage is done and they allready have people who are lvl 200+. The only way to kill these people is to get in a chain and get to lvl 200. So how are the people who are under lvl 100 right now going to be able to fight these high lvl chars?

4.)You gave these people the rights to xp chain and macro and now you are taking it away. This is going to make many huge guilds who use xp chains riot and unsubscribe.

5.)People know how you have done things in the past and they know you dont enforce the rules you make. So why should we trust you with this?

6.)A new server is great but people have spent 4 years on the one they are at and now they have to start over for this game to be fair!?

Pro's

1.)To start off you will lose TONS of people but maybe in the long run you will gain more by stoping these cheaters.

2.)Many people who left this game might come back if the results are good from all of this.

3.)If you get the game back on the market maybe we will see some new blood and this game can get back what it once had.

I think its good what you are doing but follow through with the rules you make and dont just give people who cheat a slap on the hand. Get rid of them and in doing so you will gain many more.

Also what will this new server be many people on the vault want to know. A new PK server would be nice since we dont need another white server.

Harzah

01-12-2004, 04:58 PM

Can't say I'm surprised at the subscription increase, even UO (also used to be $9.95) raised their prices recently. I could have hoped the expansion would come first though :)

Re: a new server. *shakes head* the ones we have are underpopulated. Unless you're going to be adding the expansion very soon after the new server launches all I see here is some sort of consolation to take the sting out of the price increase. You can't attract new players when they can't get a hold of the game which I hope has been taken into account. It makes the idea of a new server seem rather empty, sorry.

I would like to say I appreciate the advance notification of a subscription increase.

DarkLegend

01-12-2004, 05:17 PM

Nnow, this will do good to spread more people over more servers, fixing lag for alot of people, except for darktide. Will darktide see any kind of loving to fix some of this lag? I mean its horrible to have the lag we do on DT..i'm sure you guys see it, but gonna suck for us...

Cypher300

01-12-2004, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by sylphia
Just so you know, Cypher, I am not picking on you, but youahve raised some points that need to be adressed on both sides.

(1) We have extremely vague notes on what MAY be in the Expansion. So far, the only thing confirmed is that we will have an increase to graphics; HOW good is even sketchy. We dont even have a general timeframe; we dont even have a YEAR of release, much less a month. We have no idea what kind of content we will be receiving in the new expansion. As I have said in previous threads, I am willing to up my supscription costs to help fund this project, but I want to have SOME idea of what I am investing in, first. As for expenses, the expansion pack itself wont be free. You invest in a project with your own funds, based on projections of what it will earn you in return in the form of after-sale revenues.

(2) Turbine CHOSE to make this purchase. Notice that the player base wasnt consulted in this. Technically, we really dont need to be, since it is a purely business thing. But the cost to implement rests solely on the shoulders of the company. By itself, it doesnt justify (to the customer) raising subscriptions. The custopmer doesnt care where a server is located, so long as we can log in without problems, are lag free, and able to stay connected. All of which have been problems for a very long time.

(3) Once again, the post-sale covers that. Their own funds are invested. Even so, I am willing to help the push a bit, since I look at myself as somethign of an investor in the game and company. I dont receive monetary compensation for when the company is doing good, but I get it in the form of content and more ppl to interact with.

(4) I dont give a rat's butt about other games they may be developing. Thats what those millions of dollars in funding was FOR. I am not paying for AC1 just so they can create bombs like AC2; a bomb that wouldnt have happened if they had listened to us in Beta. I am not paying for them to develop and market D&D or Middle Earth or whatever new deal they are working on. I am paying for new content on THIS game, better CoC enforcement, less lag, expansion, or any other development that directly benefits my time in THIS game. Again, as such I am willing to pay a little more for my subscription. As I said before, this increase IS long overdue, but the timing AND lack of visible incentive make this a bad idea AT THIS TIME. Coulpe t with the change to the allegiance system that we KNOW will cost us players, and it looks very much like trying to plug a hole in a leaky boat.

Oh geez...don't worry about picking on me...that's what the boards are for!

As for your points, you're right. But, just to keep things going...some replies to your replies to me :)

1) You're absolutely right, we don't know a darn thing about the expansion. I guess I'm just HOPING it's something impressive.

2) Again you are right. Turbine DID choose the purchase. But I never agreed nor signed a contract that would require Turbine to consult me for business decisions. I'm a pure consumer and I will continue to pay until the value of the product is exceeded by the price. I have yet to come to that point yet. Others mileage may vary.

3) Venture capital does not necissarily (my god my spelling is horrible) money is coming to AC. VC is normally used for expanding a company, maybe not its products. And remember, there aren't any stocks publicly traded in Turbine (that I can find). That means Turbine must answer to the venture capitalists...which means they are going to do what they believe will make money.

4) Whether you care or not...it's a fact of life. MOney is not seperated in a company based off of where it came from. I.e. AC money doesn't solely stay in AC. Good thing is, money made from other games will benefit AC as well...*shrugs* just the fact of business.

Man I love message boards! hehe

Alska

Sass

01-12-2004, 05:20 PM

How about fixing some problems that we have and make some changes that would warrent a fee increase...

and thats alli have to say
SASS

Gladius

01-12-2004, 05:26 PM

I understand the reasoning for the price increase, and that alone doesn't bother me. I'll continue to pay for my one account regardless.

However, I think Turbine should demonstrate it's ability to run this game flawlessly before considering a price increase. That includes dealing with technical problems, customer support, and enforcing the CoC. Once you have proven your competence, then a price increase will be much easier to justify.

Zero_Washu

01-12-2004, 05:30 PM

Well my take on the new server is, good going.

As for the rate increase. Sure, what are you going to do to improve the play experience? (ie cyclic lag etc)

As for chains. About time, but as someone else said, it reinforces the idea of Exploit Early Exploit Often. I cannot imagine what the last few weeks are going to be like but I bet we see an all time high of ACM/UCMs going like a bat out of hell.

I figure if your willing to bite these two bullets at once you need to CAP experience at the same time. If you don't then your change to chains means nothing.

I see no reason in reactivating my 3 accounts if the problem people are left with their years of abuse. I doubt my friend will re-up either. The new server might be enticement, but I don't think I want to start over if you simply prove you won't do anything about the abuse that runs rampant. 200th level characters are joke, and so is the game that allows them.

Lajatang

01-12-2004, 05:34 PM

AC is 4 years old right? Why raise the fee for an old game?

The 'new server' thing isn't a good excuse. Why start a new server when the current ones are only 1/3 during peak times?

If this new server has a better performance than the others, I am not going to pay more money for something that I won't play on. Giving all the other servers upgrades would be reasonable to pay the 12.95 a month for AND with more content/other things that game could offer.

Andiglo

01-12-2004, 05:39 PM

The new server, Great idea, I'll be it's the most popular server.

Regarding price increases, I say let them raise them all they want. If people leave, turbine has made a huge mistake. I'm sure they've done their homework on the rates.

Jin Saotome

01-12-2004, 05:46 PM

THANK YOU TURBINE!!!!!!!!

My money for all 3 accounts will keep flowing, ESPECIALLY now that you have given us a new world to start a fresh slate without exp chains!!!

I knew a price increase was only a matter of time, cost of living goes up, design costs, hardware costs, and this is normal. But we get so much for the few dollars increase it's totally worth it!

Hats off, and thank you!

sylphia

01-12-2004, 05:52 PM

Cypher, like I said, I pretty much consider myself a form of "investor" when it comes to AC. I have been around since retail, so I have watched the ups and downs of the company. I know how the system works (that is how "their" money gets spent). My problem with them is that they dont ask us for OUR feelings on what they plan to do often enough, and when they DO, they ignore what the majority says and do what hey planned anyway, under the assumption that they are always right. Never mind the number of times that our feedback has gone counter to their ideas and been proven RIGHT each time.

I am fully supportig a raise in the subscription fees. But as I said, the timing on it could not have been worse. They ARE going to change allegiance no matter what we say; again, they have proven they dont listen to the majority over and over. They should havemade the changes (over our prostests like they will do anyway), then waited a couple months or so to announce a new server. Since their intentioon there was to have this system in place and working prior to the new server going live, it would only have HELPED, in that the system would be well-established, AND some of the new monarch-props they have been luring us with would in theory be in place as well. Hence, more of an incentive to populate the new server.

THEN, a couple more months down the line, with some firm ideas of what the xpansion is going to be and WHEN it is going to be coming out, THEN AND ONLY THEN should the prices have been raised. The way it is now, they have slapped a huge nerf in the game, regardless of who suporta it or doesnt suport it. At the same time, they are charging us more, without actually offering us anything to explain it, other than the fact that they never raised it in the past. Not a very persuasive arguement, and predicatably, it is causing a large number of folks to consider droping AC entirely. Its all about timing, and the timing here was as bad as it can get.

But like I said, its pretty obvious nobody at Turbine is listening to what I have to say here. My views and opinions are reflected in a large number of the folks who play and post. Not all by any means, but a large enough number that it should make a bigger dent in the decision making process. When the majority of your players consistently vote AGAINST a change, and you make it despite that, it certainly feels as though our input simply isnt heeded. And WE are the ones paying $9.95--oops make that $12.95--per month for the priviledge of being ignored in our own game.

Are these changes going to make me quit the game? Probably not. But it certainly adds yet another nail in the coffin for a customer who has been extremely loyal and patient for 4 years.

Batu Tenjin

01-12-2004, 06:01 PM

OK, a little Business 101 role-playing here (all competely fictitious, by the way).

At a meeting last month at Turbine -

CEO: OK, so how much of a revenue increase will we get when we no longer have to share our Subscription fees with Microsoft?

CFO: Since our revenue sharing deal is 50-50, it will be essentially a 100 percent increase in Subscription revenue. (Crowd at table cheers)

CEO: OK, OK, but how many current subscribers will we lose when we implement the XP nerf?

Online Rep: Our analysis of board postings indicates a worst-case scenario of 30 percent. So, post Microsoft and post XP nerf, we still will have a net gain of 70 percent in revenue.

Executive producer: But don't forget the players who will leave because of the Subscription Fee increase which we will be using to build the Expansion Pack, since our VCs won't like it if we use their money for any purposes other than those stated in the funding agreement.

CEO: And how many would we lose from that?

Online Rep: Looks to be about an additional 30 percent.

CEO: So we will still be ahead of the game by 40 percent right?

CFO: No, you are forgetting the additional 30 percent fee increase applied to the remaining 40 percent of current subscribers. The net is about 52 percent over current revenue levels.

Online Rep: And the side benefit is, that with the reduction in the player base, the server lag issue will become essentially non-existant, even with an significant graphics upgrade in the Expansion Pack. Particularly if we continue to add new servers to balance the load.

CEO: Sounds like a winning strategy, folks. Let's do it!

*Note: Again, all the above is completely fictional, but is a plausible representation of the kind of business decision process that Turbine must have gone through before making these changes.*

reevenatural

01-12-2004, 06:05 PM

Give us more storage for our new price per month. I currently run many accounts because i have no way to hold all the uber loot, vassal armor/wands/critter spell clothes,dual spell jewelry, components, quest items, Make chests hold three packs not two, make packs hold 48 items and sacks 24, make Foci compatible with 24 slots total storage for tapers scarabs and peas. I have multi accounts because theres still no safe way to mule. I have lost items while pack is being held OPEN and items are moving in and out. I lost a full pack last month during the BUGGY inventory debacle. Give monarchies questable chests for MULING if not storage. We have 5 chests in mansion, they aren't nearly enough to hold the loot to be salvaged/partial bags of salvage, that we gather and try to organize. Salvage is a huge storage HOG.

So consider if u have more than 2 accounts, maybe you shouldn't be charged the same as some one that uses one account 24/7. The extra MULE accounts are mainly for storage problems.
and .......
IF U A'INT paying, U CANT HAVE A HOUSE. MUST be active to pay the rent. Give those poor ghetto dwellers a chance too. Apartments suck. message is attempted to be sent, IF account is NON-active, example they UNsubscribe. they log on it says you have x days to pay rent, If u become inactive b4 the rent is due again, you FORFEIT THE HOUSE.

kgober

01-12-2004, 06:05 PM

a new world sounds like something good for new players who are just starting, or for solo players.

but how much of a benefit is it for players in allegiances?

are you in an allegiance now? why are you in it? what prevents you from breaking from your patron and going elsewhere instead?

because if you play on the new world so much that you don't have time for the old one, you effectively *have* left your old allegiance.

and if you only dabble on the new world, then really, what's the point of being there at all? curiosity to see what a world without pack dolls looks like?

I have trouble understanding the appeal of a new world if you're in an active allegiance. unless you were planning on leaving it anyway.

sure, people keep asking for a new server. but people ask for a lot of stupid things. what would they actually do when they get there? I'm guessing they'd go "yay! a new server! umm, I have no equipment, no spells and no money. I think I'll go play on my old server instead."

-ken

Zero_Washu

01-12-2004, 06:14 PM

How about this, NO HOUSES on the new server

Replace it with some form of player storage. Housing killed the cities. Housing also blighted the landscape.

Syrlacc

01-12-2004, 06:14 PM

Have you considered a discount for those with

- multiple accounts
- accounts in both AC1 and AC2
- who wish to purchase subscriptions for several months at once

This seems to be worth the effort, since there will be fewer cancelled accounts due to the price increase and, of course, getting three months worth of $$$ now is worth more to a business than getting that same money in monthly installments (plus this reduces "heat of the moment" unsubscriptions).

Also, how about an extra character per account? AC2 has like 18 per server, why not 6 for AC1 as a little "bonus" to sweeten the deal a bit?

Luminescent

01-12-2004, 06:30 PM

oo yes yes, PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEE Nerf housing!!!!! In the new world just get rid of them! we can hang in towns again!

ImpaleHG

01-12-2004, 06:37 PM

I really love this game, but the total lack of any forethought to most decsions is really too much to bear. And frankly, it makes no difference whether MS handcuffed you before or not. You sold the product to them, that's your crutch to bear.

I have 4 accounts. and extra $12 a month for what? When you can give me a valid answer to that I'll consider if I stay, if not, Hasta La Vista. And I'm sorry, but inflation isn't going to cut it.

Supply & Demand, go read up on that one... What you have is a falling demand.

Aeroflinn

01-12-2004, 06:58 PM

I dont mind the increase at least on my part since I dont have as many accounts as I used to have.

BUT another server is a really bad move. We have lost so many players in the last 1-2 years that I honestly cant understand Why you would want another server.

It cant be because of the lagg. I remember when servers were well over 2200+ peeps at peek times and now your lucky to see 500-900 peeps. A new server is not needed.

Your energies could be better spent on the things you already have in the mix. :confused:

Geomancer

01-12-2004, 06:59 PM

In order for us to continue running and growing the service, we need to recognize the reality to the times and likewise raise this subscription fee. The price increase is a necessary step.

Hopefully the next recognized necessary step to continue running and growing the service will be increasing the minimum system requirements to play the game.

After all, if my system can handle AC2 why should I play AC1 for an AC2 price?

morrigan

01-12-2004, 07:02 PM

Any other news that will be out before January 31?

Powr

01-12-2004, 07:26 PM

That is ok with me, all the other MMORPG's are $12.95 and for half the fun or less. I have felt all along that with Turbine regaining control of AC that it would would reap great reward for the players with inspired content coming from developers who have a true passion for the game and not just the $$$. I think they are already beginning to show their commitment to the players with what I have seen of the planned new content and capability - AND a NEW WORLD! If they need to see a greater commitment from the players in return - so be it!
:D

Luminescent

01-12-2004, 07:58 PM

edited : causing too much stress hehe

SCM

01-12-2004, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by Luminescent
good question, when do u ever consider our thoughts and opinions? I dont think u ever have listened to your subscribers. How about u get some responses to ideas before u decide on very big issues.

Asking for responses to the question of "do you want to pay more for the POSSIBILITY of more content, a new server & other promised upgrades", would meet with a flood of replies similar to:

Read all of the above complaints ( saving time & space with that comment)

Why would anyone agree to a price increase without a clear explanation of what will be & when it will be implimented.
I personally have no real desire to continue with a game that constantly has the playing field altered because the devs cannot get the fix right.
Remove lag, UCMers, CoC violators, proven IG thieves & griefers & you may get some positive responses.
If you did the above you would not need a new world.
Unless this new world you speak of is for the expected influx of new players when the expansion pack is released, (I can't believe it is, as it is due prior to the expansion pack) I personally think it is a waste of resources.

SCM

01-12-2004, 08:38 PM

A few more thoughts on this.

I am the monarch of a 900+ family on Solclaim.
We own a mansion.
Have no xp chain.
Have no UCM'ers

When will Turbine show some love for the old fashioned monarchies that were created for the explicit reason they were intended.
Mansions were promised upgrades, I don't think a chalkboard & door bell are really what the player base were looking for in this regard. Chalkboards & door bells can be used on all housing except appartments. No mansion love there.
Are the current points of discussion a ruse to distract from yet another failed to deliver by Turbine?
If it is xp chains you wish to nerf, then why not put a daily/weekly cap on the amount of pass up which can be sent to & thru characters that either never log in, have dormant accounts, are banned (for whatever reason) or produce xp in amounts that are not considered appropriate by the game mechanics.
The last point is open to conjecture as to what is/would be considered appropriate, but somewhere in the coding or original plans for the game there must be a number that was acceptable & expected to be able to be reasonably attainable.
Unfortunately the game has suffered from lack of attention to detail regarding these points by past administrations. The increasing of subs & the nerfing to 1 level of pass up will only cause angst amongst the player base.
I personally think Turbine will be caught short of the base with this one.

Minamoto

01-12-2004, 08:39 PM

I have never hada problem paying extra for a service. Never have, never will.

However, There IS a catch.

If I Pay more, I need to get more. If you ask me for more money, for something I like, then you need to have a good reason for doing so. Don't ask for more, and give nothing back.

There is ABSOLUTLY no need for another world. With Server/population at an all time low, there is no plausible reason for wanting to create another server. Heck, you even consolidated the AC2 servers becuse of lack of players. AC1 is no different. The current polulation dosn't warrant it.

Even with the release of an expansion (graphics only update, not even an engine update) IMHO I don't think that is going to draw many more players.

What you have here now is your base of Loyal Players. These are going to be the core. IMHO that number isn't going to increase by 1000 people per server (which is close to what we are actually down by now compared to 2 years ago).

I think there are more pressing issues that should be on the table first. Lag on the current servers being first and formost in my mind. What is the point of creating ANOTHER lag fest on another World? Why not Fix the current problem pluaging us all, and make those servers a little more stable so they can hold another 500 or so people confortably.

IF your going to increase subsriptions, I think it is important to listen to what your ACTUAL players want, not the imaginary/potential players you COULD have.

I have no problem paying more for AC, if you have no problem actually taking that increased revenue and fixing the game.

Thanks for reading.

Prozak

01-12-2004, 08:54 PM

Funny how some are demanding NO 4rd parties. or houses..etc.

New server IS what it is... NEW....

Now w/xp nerf.. U will prolly see a CLEANER server...

Thats it... expect a new server full of lvl 1's... same ole ac...

s-inator

01-12-2004, 08:56 PM

I must say very good work on your part Turbine. However here are my thoughts for why the new server should be a player killer only server.

1) It will encourage many players of servers that were non-pk to try out PvP since they will no longer be at a disadvantage.
2) It will bring back a lot of subscriptions of old Darktiders who grew tired of the way things were in the original server.
3) The server would probably achieve a much higher amount of players due to the fact that there are already an assortment of white servers to choose from.

A last suggestion I have is to remove mansion barriers if this server does indeed become a red server so that player wars could be to actually claim territory instead of for the sheer fun of it.

I can promise you if this server in fact becomes a red server you will see an insane amount of resubscriptions.

It will give many players a chance to view what Darktiders are always reminsicing on: The old school Darktide. It will bring back flavor and mystery to the game and a sense of something new. I can only hope that this happens because if it does it will be a very good day for Asheron's Call.

If you do not think it will be sucessful I refer you to the In Por Yelm player hosted pre Uo-R server. For years Verant and EA had told UO players that there was no chance they would open a pre-UO-R shard. Now that the players did it themselves it has become so immensely popular that they themselves are opening one. I hope that this shows that there IS a demand for PvP out there and that if you make this server it will flourish and expose people to a new type of gaming style.

Take a poll on how many people would play if the server was pk only you will get amazing results.

kgober

01-12-2004, 09:07 PM

I think a lot of players have been asking for a new server because they want to go back and relive the fun and magic from when the game was new, without all the buffbots and high-level-chainers, duped items, etc. etc.

but you can't relive it, because the game isn't new anymore.

the game won't be exciting and new, it will be aggravating and crowded, as half the players will be in BSD, and the other half will be in Citadel.

-ken

s-inator

01-12-2004, 09:14 PM

"the game won't be exciting and new, it will be aggravating and crowded, as half the players will be in BSD, and the other half will be in Citadel"

Both those spots are attrocious nowadays.

Zenato

01-12-2004, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by kgober
the game won't be exciting and new, it will be aggravating and crowded, as half the players will be in BSD, and the other half will be in Citadel.

So it WILL be like the good ol' days :-)

Meri

01-12-2004, 10:53 PM

The fee increase isn't enough to cause me to leave a game I've devoted 4 years and countless hours to. Unfortunately, other developments may be exactly what it takes.

Kesrick

01-12-2004, 11:47 PM

Several people posted that multiple account holders will allow one or more accounts to go inactive- I will stop 1 of my 3.
Instead of $29.85 per month, now you'll get $25.90 per month from me. (That's negative cashflow.) If there were an increase AFTER something substantial had been accomplished, I would probably be more receptive. All we have now are promises. There are dozens of suggestions by players (customers) on what needs to be fixed (prior to the price hike announcement) that have fallen on deaf ears.
Just because other games charge more is no reason to raise the price for AC1. Do you let your 12 year child smoke cigarettes when he says, "Everyone else is doing it?"
Seems to me you need to fine tune your business plan, as you are alienating much of your customer base.
I don't care about a new server- I'm happy in HG with the friends I have had for almost 4 years.

Rauth

01-12-2004, 11:50 PM

Subscription cost: Not a problem.

It will be interesting to see a new server in its infancy.

ivoryjohn

01-13-2004, 12:03 AM

I think a price increase would have been better timed along with the graphics improvements turbine said would come much later. We all like to know we are getting something for our money.

I think we would all like to know that our AC investment will continue to be a good one, and while the elimination of xp chains will hopefully lead to the loss of combat macros which may improve our gaming experience, it may also lead to the loss of many xp UCMers, which while we may gladly say good riddence, may leave us needing to make up for the lost revenue.

Ol-Dogg

01-13-2004, 12:04 AM

unfortunately, by the time the new changes are made, i'll be too deep into World of Warcraft creating great new memories to bother reliving old ones in AC.

Aten-LC

01-13-2004, 12:20 AM

:/ kind of unfortunate. now rather than receiving the US$20/mo for both of my accounts, they will now receive US$0/mo.

i'm sure that will add up; it's a shame they can't continue AC1 without increasing the price, but with the people they will lose due to the increase, i'm not so sure the additional $3/mo per account (of those remaining) will be enough to offset it all.

thanks for the memories, ac1 has been fun since beta-0.

- Aten / D'anclaude / Ayb Abtu - Leafcull -

Thelonius

01-13-2004, 12:21 AM

What do we get for that price increase? Yes I realize it is only 3 dollars, but hey, we complain about 7 cents increases in gas prices, and the oil companies have to justify to the feds any significant up or downshifts like that.

Other games at very least give the players something to go along with price increases.....like an expansion, to soften the pill. Or is a new server 10% of the population will move too, and no new players because selling new copies of the game isn't a priority our 'gift'?

Marvelous_Gimp

01-13-2004, 12:54 AM

Preach on S-Inator Preach it Preach it Preach it

Soloist

01-13-2004, 01:18 AM

I don't mind the price increase (I only have 1 account). It seems reasonable in light of how much the game has grown in the last 4 years.

The new server is great news. I played during beta, then started on HG in retail, then moved to SC when it opened, and finally moved to WE when it opened. There's nothing like the fun and challenge of starting over on a new world.

Soloist

Krenlore

01-13-2004, 01:22 AM

I'm not sure why on one hand there is an announcement that running a MMORPG is expensive and you have to raise costs while at the same time there is an announcement that you are opening up a new server.

Wouldn't you want to keep costs down by not opening the new server (and related costs)? Can you give any reasons why you feel a new server is required? I really don't understand why Turbine feels a need for the new world.

It's unfortunate that you are increasing the price and incurring more costs before you update the game.

I feel my 4 year run on Dereth is coming to an end. I wish you luck going forward.

~Kren

Hamlit

01-13-2004, 01:34 AM

REPOST FROM MY VNBOARDS THREAD:

Obviously, I'm not thrilled about the upcoming price hike and XP chain nerf announced by Turbine today, and I have cancelled my subscription.

I know there are those out there rejoicing about the said changes, but to what end? I foresee a bleak future for Dereth where the lag-infested landscape once rife with laughter and cheer dwindles into digital oblivion. Once bustling mansions becoming vacated due to the absence of necessary supplies and active populations needed to keep them running.

Not that I would wish this, mind you; but, it appears that our glorious benefactors, aka Turbine Games, have unwittingly decided this fate.

If you are as upset as I about what they intend to do, I ask you to cancel your subscription immediately and let your voices be heard. It is only by the will of the many that they will listen, and we need for them to hear us clearly. Don't be a weak-minded puppet and allow them to walk all over we who put bread on their dinner tables. Let them prove their worthiness before gullibly accepting that things MAY improve. Actions speak louder than words, my friends, and right now, the sound of nothingness is all I hear - just like the last time I tried to get a response from an Admin...

dangerousimage

01-13-2004, 02:22 AM

I had no idea a new world was opening up!? Sounds interesting!

Price increase doesn't bother me at all. Its not much of an increase and is totally reasonable.

Zan Xott

01-13-2004, 02:23 AM

'Jessica' can certainly time announcements.Turbine can now use other people's money (great title for a movie, eh ?) to produce content for non AC games. Sweet.

Let's see what we get for the $3 pickle:

1. A disembowelment of the XP chain passup.
2. A tacit acknowledgement that the changes to the Allegiance system were created to contain advancement since there is no high level content.
3. 2 days (hah !) of down time when the server content is moved.

This reminds me of the great Wizard Faguno who, trying to impress his host the Sultan of Swat, waved his wand and made every one dissapear. Forever.

[shaking head]

- Zan Xott -

SCM

01-13-2004, 04:10 AM

Originally posted by dangerousimage
I had no idea a new world was opening up!? Sounds interesting!

Price increase doesn't bother me at all. Its not much of an increase and is totally reasonable.

I am glad to see someone in this day & age of materialistic, money grabbing selfishness actually enjoy paying something for nothing. :eek: :rolleyes:

HeXt

01-13-2004, 06:18 AM

It will be fun to teach many the ways that were lost long ago.
I can kinda see how it's going to go on for now... be it good or bad.

Lilitha's bow will be godly for like the first week or 2...

Pre armor will not exist, so low craft items and pine/gold will be valuable.

Olthoi armor will be valuable, and used alot, but it will take a while to get even the 20+ version, teamwork will be at it's greatest here.

People will use POST PATCH Shadow armor, even the lowbie versions of it. 30+ GSC will be the second armor of choice. GSA will be used too, but concidering gsc is better when sharded, I doubt it.

Gaerlan swords will be either used around level 50 or covveted for a long time, I'm willing to bet they become the new currency for later in the game.

Shards and motes will be valuable.

Motes will probably be gathered, maybe even macroed, and traded to the highest bidder but while they may do that, they will have no way to apply them together without 250 skill. High Quality ingots will be valauble.

Shards might be ucm'ed as well, but of course most characters wont be able to kill even the smalled frag for a long time.

Yanshi, Rithwic and Yaraq will be the favorite towns of the server due to lugian gems and fishing.

Lacuna, Bobo, and even tusker island will probably go untouched for a long time. Without tinkered armor people don't stand a chance. Not even Olthoi armor will be good there.

People will probably go back to that little hole in the wall near Qalabar to level their mages, or walled portals, but without ucm's (And I hope admins take notice of this and will do regular sweeps of these areas!) I'm willing to bet they won't be too much problem.

Mage armor will be another awesome armor source. Although getting down to Knorr will be hard without tinkered armor.

That useless craft 4 item that is found on some monster that everyone thought of as a newbie monster will be someone's favorite weapon/armor for months.

If someone gets a craft 4 item as a newbie, they'll adore it for lifetimes.

Mansions will be available for months. Cottages will be begged to have allegiances recall. The writ quest will be valuable.

Prism helmets will be used alot as well later on.

People will use composite bows, The Elari bow will be the best bow ever until people discover some low craft bows, be them 100 mods or 130.

Dires, Caul and VOD will be a ghost town. A bottle neck might form at Aerfalle when people start reaching level 45. SIKs will be valuable due to people not having 7's.

Trade notes will have value because people will want to buy spells.

Items like the bandit shield, diamond shields, niffis shields, nyssidia hubreks and other items like that will be very useful as well. Robes will rule the first few weeks.

Now I've probably inspired both legit players and cheaters, but of course they'll have to work to cheat this time. Heheh.

Extreme characters will stand a snowball's chance in hell.

20+ Gaerlan quests will take a team effort to complete without twinked out bows/weaponry. Once completed, the Gaerlan weaponry will be favorite weapons, and wands of choice.

Focus stones and Baudrens will probably reign supreme.

PK will probably rule over PK(L) for a while because people will want to loot in an attempt to better their character. PK(PKL too) will be fair and awesome.

Nobody will complain about the low level love, they'll adore it to hell. Old school knowledge will be supreme. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING will be challenging.

The only real complaints you might see is the people complaining about scroll prices and more, but they don't realize it's suppose to be challenging to get scrolls/foci.

All and all I can't wait. It will be a blast.
I think I'm gonna start a new guild there as well. Kind of an extention to the one Ashake has on MT. I will look forward to teaching many the old ways in an attempt to better the future.

But, it will be STR in numbers.

The only thing I really think Turbine will need to do on that server is to make sure growth is at a proper non overpowering rate, and UCM's, and ebay sales are properly dealt with. KEEP RULES HARDCORE ENFORCED. OBSERVE WHAT THE COMMUNITY DOES! Don't be afraid to own cheaters.

I see a bright future where those of us that actually learned the game well will prosper. I hope to teach lots of you the ways I've learned over time. Assuming I have the time.

HeXt

01-13-2004, 07:11 AM

I have no problem with the subscription increase. :)

Fizbanaldrakan

01-13-2004, 07:28 AM

At least make your server in europe, you could take some of the ac2 servers down, im sure the 50 people on every server wouldnt mind, and move them to europe. Then i would pay the xtra 3$

For once i would like to have ping below 350ms, and actually experience my spells go off in pvp, instead of nothing happens.

Its ok to remove the chains on the new servers, but why on the old servers, they are allready spoiled.

If anyone thinks that the new server will be like good old times, they are wrong, within 2 months max, you will allready see level 126+ players, that have macroed Lacuna or better places at 20 mill an hour.

And at least make the new server pk only.

HeXt

01-13-2004, 07:31 AM

Whats wrong with having the servers on the border of my home town? :(

AnotherDude

01-13-2004, 07:45 AM

A price increase was within my expectations. No real fuss from me except that a 30% increase is a little larger than I expected. It won't hit me that hard as I only pay for 2 accounts, and the Aussie dollar isn't sucking so bad against the US dollar at the moment. ;) Still I don't play any similar games and don't compare prices on them as my system is older and can't play many new games.

After reading all the posts, I can't see the need for a new server unless it co-incides with a significant marketing push. I've played for about 3 1/2 years and my top toon is lvl 120. Some times I play a lot. Some times I don't play at all. But I enjoy the game and its challenges.

Thx for the good times and may they continue in style.

Cheers.

coma_black

01-13-2004, 07:56 AM

sorry but most of these posts were how do i put it nicely...are you insane!

transfer char's ....bwahaha whats the sense in creating a new server if you can take your maxed out char there.

new pvp server...has been stated before not even planned until there is a need for it via lack of room on dt.

don't get me wrong not trying to be mean, just pointing out how it is.

current state of the game is so stomach turning as it is i had to say something:eek:

Cash_we

01-13-2004, 08:16 AM

Dunno if smebody has asked this before in this thread or forum but are you going to put ac back in the shelfs? that should be a priority in my opinion.

Panoramix

01-13-2004, 08:28 AM

Hi,

I play since 3 years on Frostfell server and i have 2 account for few hours.

I prefere AC because the price is not expansive.

Ac is a good Diablo Like, algorithme is basic:

Dungeons + plains = kill = xp + loot

Chat windows = channel irc

4 Weapons: ua, sword, Bow! and Wand. It's poor :(

Sometimes, one or two events Storm... Portal Storm of course !

Well, 9.95$ is good deal for this service.

And now, you raise price. Is air-conditioning too expensive for computer room ?

After 2 years, u kill Decal and XP Chain ? lol You are timid in front of Miscrosoft. Now, your independant...well...a little.

There are 2 world of AC at 12.95$.

What is interest ?

Actually, AC2 is dead and AC almost died. 900 users in US time and 400 in World Time WITH MACRO :eek:

In Online Game, the community is importante. Well, my friends are very importante !

Now, my work in Ac is: I will motivate my friends to leave the game !

I think that the futur is not in AC and not with Turbine.

Can you explain Mankind revival ?

Bye.

Sangria

01-13-2004, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by Extinction
Turbine just got $18,000,000 from investor companies, and now it's asking for $3/month more..

Turbine writes games - that is NOT the same thing as hosting games. So they are not set up with game servers and all that.

They are having to set up an entire game hosting system and then an accounting system, a log in system and hire and train a lot of new people to do the work. Good tech people are not cheap and they now need a lot more.

I would gladly pay more a month to not have to ever have a **** log in like the zone again.

Look at it like this.

It costs $7 - $10 to see a 2 hour movie.
It costs $13 to play AC for a month.

Razak

01-13-2004, 08:29 AM

While I certainly understand the need to increase profits, I also question why it was increased up to being on par with new games just coming out. I realize that many of the new games don't have the content of AC1 but that is something that usually happens with time, and while it has been something AC1 has, the one thing AC1 does not have, and likely won't ever have is graphics, sound or the players that these new games have.

With an increase to be on par with these new games, the likeliness of new players to come to AC1 decreases dramatically. There is something to be said on undercutting the competition, even if it is a small amount. In the past few months Gamecube has outsold Xbox by nearly 2 to 1, not because it is a better system but because it is so cheap most people can afford to have it. And there are many people out there that 12.95 is just too expensive.

In my opinion for these older games I think 11.95 is a better price. You are still getting 2 bucks more per month than before, but you are still undercutting the competition and offering someone who might be willing to pay 13 to save a little. I do also realize that there is sometimes a psychological thought that if a game costs less that it is worth less, but lets face it people love price wars!

I guess the real question now is, will there be 3, 6, and 12 month plans to reduce the monthly cost? Because the other games do that to offset their higher cost, if AC1 doesn't do this it in essence will be costing a player MORE to play than the competition.

Razak

01-13-2004, 08:38 AM

This coupled with the new server is good news indeed. Turbine has gone and made 2 out of my 3 big problems with the game get fixed. The first was stale worlds, the second was xp chains, now the only problem that remains is third-party programs and macros, so I hope you guys start doing a better job at those over the next couple of months so that I have a greater reason to come back and play.

Looking over your plan for XP passup, I did think it looked good. I have two real concerns however though.

One is that Loyalty and Leadership were pretty much the only skills that really benefitted from Self outside of the magics. Self has long been thought of as one of the weaker stats and now it will be made even weaker. While it is correct in saying that higher loyalty and leadership were basically geared towards magic, but what will be done to strengthen what is going be the weakest stat? And weakest by a long shot compared to how powerful focus is, or at least was when I left.

The second problem is the direct passup and indirect passup changes. I understand the need to increase the direct, and certainly understand the need to decrease the indirect, however maybe you went a little too far? 90% passup is an aweful lot! I have no doubt, or at least hope, that this is going to be more difficult to achieve than before, but I'd much rather see a 75% max. Likewise I think only 10% is a smidge too small, while I certainly felt that 94% and even down to 50% was insane, why not just throw it up to 15%. I realize I am talking just a few percent difference, but in this case that few percent can make the difference between not minding letting your vassals have vassals, and wanting them all for themselves... after all that few percent is a 50% increase.

Just my thoughts, even if you don't improve that area I am still much happier with the new system than where it was. Now please do something about all the cheaters out there!!! I see so many people continue to complain about the macoers that I still don't think I'd want to come back with them all.

KsBabe

01-13-2004, 09:06 AM

I have read the msgs about the increase, some positive, some negitive, but I know that my husband and I have (and our kids) have four active AC accounts at the moment and with the increase, all will remain active.
But I have a suggestion for Turbine. Instead of raising the costs by 3 dollars, go to 2 dollars and offer prepaid cards that people can purchase to play the game. Kids that want to play and doesnt have access to credit cards can buy these cards and play and along with it, charge 14 dollars for the cards. This is make up for the 1 dollar that loyal AC fans wont have to pay, yet generate new faces in our game. It would be a great way for some of us that plays now, who uses prepaid credit cards also, instead of adding 50 dollars + 4.95 each month and an addition 4.95 a month card holder fee just to be able to play the game, the money would go straight to Turbine. which in the long run would benefit both the prepaid credit card holders, the loyal players and Turbine. Turbine would get extra cash flow, loyal players would save a dollar a month and the prepaid credit card holders would save $$$.
I have seen game credit cards on the shelves in stores for other games and have hoped Turbine would come out with one. It could be buy one a month for 14.95. or a 3, 6, or 12 month prepaid. and the more months you pay for in advance the cheaper the card.

As for a new server, I may start a char there. I have a lvl 110 archer on FF that has taken me nearly three years to get that high. I have never been in a xpchain or had vassals under me that produced multi-millions of xp a month. I have worked hard at advancing my player in levels and I am happy that some people that will be new to the game when the expansion pack comes out will have to learn to play the game as I did, they will love it. Also the help of patrons will be greatly needed, ;)

pshylocke

01-13-2004, 09:27 AM

I support the change. The commitment Turbine has made with Asheron's Call gives me enough confidence to continue my support. I have high hopes that there will be more then one graphic/engine update in order to bring AC current with the times. Hopefully the expansion brings new and great things!

HeXt

01-13-2004, 09:35 AM

I just hope the faith I'm putting in their upcoming enforcement will be as good as we all expect.

Honest John

01-13-2004, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by Extinction
Turbine just got $18,000,000 from investor companies, and now it's asking for $3/month more..

Well, come March, my 3 subscriptions are gone, along with a few hundred more.. I doubt the increase is going to make up for the loss of subscriptions..

Turbine, you dissapoint me.. you had the chance to show you true love for games and gaming, but you turned out to be an EQ-Cloning bunch of money grubbers.

Do you understand the venture money is NOT for AC. Its for the new games being developed. Venture money is for expansion, not matainance of current projects. I am sure there would be BIG problems if Turbine used one cent for AC.

Cost do rise. Turbine has to decide if they are making enough profit to continue producing the game. Not only do they have the increased operating costs of the servers now,( thought that should be offset by the fact they get all the sub money), they also had to pay MS for the game. Operating costs do go up so a modest price increase is not unreasonable, even with no big improvment in the game. But a 30% increase? With no promise of improvment to the current game?

But, by pricing AC, a 4 year old game witha number of major problems, at the same level as newer games, you remove one of the few incentives new players have to try out the game. While some curent players will cancel accounts, most will decide they don't want to throw away many years of investment in their chracters and will not cancel or will reopen accounts after some time as passed. Though I can see mule only accounts going away. There will be a few people who cancel simply because they truly cannot afford the new rates, but that number will be small. You have to set a price that meets the companies revinue goals, we have to decide if the cost is still worth it.

What I simply do not understand is why your spending $100,000 (your own stated costs) on a new server given the current player base? If you have plans you have not yet anounced about the new server, then why the heck did you cause all this aggeravation by even mentioning a new server? Do you have any real PR people working there? Why on earth announce a new, big expense at the same time your rasing rates without some justification of the new expense? You have pissed off a lot of people.

Turbine, you really need to tell us what plans you have for the new server that makes you think its worth the cost. What incentive will I have to give up 4 years invested in my characters, leave my great allagiance, etc just to start over on a world that will be just as messed up in 6 months?

Wayndor

01-13-2004, 09:49 AM

1) Will we the loyal players be given anything as an incentive for having stayed with the game? Such as 1 week start on the new world.

2) Can the world be macro free?

3) Can better methods of payment be found such as paypal, direct debit etc?

kgober

01-13-2004, 09:50 AM

here's another thought regarding the price change from $10 to $13 (and a bit about the XP passup changes too):

with all the other games out there charging $13, playing AC1 for $10 is a bargain. so what if the graphics are worse than every other game? so what if the sound and music are worse? it's cheaper! doubly or triply cheaper (or more) if you have multiple accounts.

at $13, AC1 will be the same price as most of the other games. now, I don't *want* to pay $13 per month to play a game. but if I *have* to, I seriously wonder whether that game should be AC1 or something more modern like SW:G.

AC1 is old. so what if it's got more content? I've done all the low-level content I'm interested in already. at level 85, I'm at the point on the XP curve where I can't advance to higher-level content without a significant time investment powerleveling (and I have an inactive vassal between me and all the active players beneath me, so I won't be seeing any of that XP). I'm not active enough myself to be able to support active direct vassals, so my advancement will be slow. most of my allegiance mates are 100+, and they have a tendency to do 100+ quests. so at the moment, as a casual player, I'm stuck doing the same content (outdoor hunting, dungeon crawling and soloable 80-90 quests) over and over. (I might have been 100+ myself by now, but I started spec Creature/Life/ManaC, and the drain nerf slowed down my advancement considerably. before the nerf, I was an active powerleveler. afterwards, I became a casual player. when I was finally able to train war, I became more active again. but when monsters were rebalanced so that trained-war became much less effective, I became a casual player again)

SW:G, on the other hand, has much better graphics and sound for the same price. and it's new. I actually *played* the game for the first time last night, joining a hunting party to go out and do missions (previously I've only wandered around town and played with crafting skills). I have to say, the game is fun.

here's how the passup change is related: with chain passup, I was advancing faster than my own hunting merited. this meant that I was getting to see new content at a nice pace. for $13 a month, AC1 has a lot of content, *if* you get to advance to see it. for $10 a month, AC1 remains competitive even without (attainable) new content, because it's cheaper.

but at $13 per month, *without* attainable new content, it is not (for me) a compelling value. the only things keeping me here will be Decal and momentum.

-ken

ps. I understand now why certain Turbine staff will be allowed to give hints on how to fix Decal after the compiler change. a price increase, xp passup nerf, and decal nerf all in the same month would absolutely positively kill the game for too many players.

Shaolin

01-13-2004, 10:05 AM

I think that turbine HAS a fix for pretty much everything....

lag, i am sure they know what the problem was (major problem)
but were not able to sort it whilst ms had the hardware, and therefore for leagal resons probably could not comment too much on it,
i think with new hardware (new server) they will be putting this to the test.

xp passup, already dealt with.

poor content/arcs, again, probably constrained by ms.

obviously there are many more problems, but, i am willing to bet
rebalance/fixes are already in the pipeline.

3 pounds more of my money to ensure all these things happen,
in my opinion IS worth it....

as long as it it done in a timely fashion and ARE making improvements weather it be graphics/content (for ALL lvl's)
balance/loot changes/and making new dynamics then i will be happy.

pacesetter

01-13-2004, 10:09 AM

Turbine, we need some information !!!

as for the new server and going by what I see on the boards: What I see is this;

new graphics, AC2 inspired or better. you will lose everyone with a computer over one year old and everyone on dial-up. most stayed with AC1 because they could not play AC2.

new server:

make an animal character. If I wanted to be an animal shadowbane is there.

you can have pets. again shadowbane is there. why double the "players" with the lag we have now and these pets don't pay the price increase?

No housing. more thieves as we try to find safe places to mule. Thieves do not hunt they steal. This will not increase town populations. we will be out in a field or forest muling. And from past answers to this problem thieves are a part of the game and will not be banned ( as we all want ).

xp chains going 4 vassals wide and taking 3 months to get to 126 rather than 2.

No decal. good apps included. why can't you just BAN hunting apps and apps like gear?? Then BAN the users?

balance by nerf. no one can get the uber gear needed to play the higher level areas so the baddies are nerfed then we get nerfed then the baddies get nerfed then we get nerfed...........

this may have merit or may be all wrong.

c'mon guys. do not wait and gather answers to answer the concerns on the boards. tell us what you are doing! give us information! then you can answer the NEW concerns that are based on FACT!

You plan a dev chat. Please plan on giving us the information we desire and need to make our decision to stay or leave. Post the chat here so everyone can see what you have to say. Many of us will not be able to attend but need this information. I have 4 accounts and planned on 2 more, but am now considering seriously dropping the 4 I have. The information you provide QUICKLY will base my decision.

Ibn

01-13-2004, 11:42 AM

One question that has come up in a few places is that of housing -- right now we have no plans to change housing in the new world. Currently, when the world opens, all housing will be available.

It is possible that this could be changed.

kgober

01-13-2004, 12:02 PM

it gets better and better.

I have friends who haven't played in many months, but whose accounts are still active. they don't read these forums, which apparently is the only way to find out about the billing change.

aside from finding out by looking at their March credit card statements, of course.

now, I suppose it's possible for you to send an email to them at their passport address, but those email addresses don't actually exist. they're all hotmail accounts, created for only one reason: Microsoft forced us to associate our zone accounts with an email address as part of their big passport beta-test. but this is beside the point.

anyway, I notified them. their first response was that Turbine can't just change the billing rate without telling them. I explained to them that Turbine can, in fact, do just that.

these are people who felt it was worth paying $10 to maintain an account, even though they did *not* feel that the game was actually worth playing. I think this is just the kick they'll need to start cancelling accounts. between them, I estimate between half and 3/4 of the accounts will go.

I would be very interested to see your numbers for gross AC1 income in the months that follow (but of course I realize that those numbers are unlikely to ever be made public). I expect to see a big spike (at least 20%) for February, as people stick around for a month or two just to see what happens. but if the numbers start dropping after April, then it will be clear to me that AC1 is dying, unable to pay for itself at $10 per month, and unable to draw customers at $13.

-ken

Danilo Thann

01-13-2004, 12:31 PM

Do you expect to work and never get a raise?
Do you expect to pay for a magazine subscription and never have it go up?
Do you expect to pay for insurance or transit and never have a fee or fare increase?

Really people, the subscription fee increase is trivial so get over it.

It was about time. I have 3 subscriptions and will continue to pay for all of them.

In addition, there was a survey that went around asking about this and most people voted yes to an increase in the fee. Granted that was with changes but changes are coming.

Domni

01-13-2004, 12:41 PM

Price hike is fine by me....it is still the cheapest form of massmedia entertainment available imo. Looking foward to the expansion :)

pacesetter

01-13-2004, 12:46 PM

it's NOT the $3 increase. It is getting nerfed and bashed without ever having the true problems fixed!!

Go find zuicide's post. the xp chains are better off while we scramble to re-do our vassals and re-do them again to level another char.

this did NOT fix the xp chains.

Arlaine

01-13-2004, 12:47 PM

MS knows about the price increase. My CC expired and I had to update my billing information. When it showed me that the amount to be deducted went up, I headed to these forums and found out why. LOL!

Still a good entertainment investment for me. :)

Um, all you people cancelling your accounts? Could you please post your server and housing coords? ;) j/k ... sort of.

Rendar

01-13-2004, 12:56 PM

I will be canceling 3 of my 5 accounts. My main account and my fiance's main accounts may remain active for a time. But who can tell the future.

It's too much money Ibn. Sorry. :(

Cypher300

01-13-2004, 12:58 PM

OHH OHH!!! Good idea!!

We could have a "I'm pi$$ed that the monthy subscription rate is going up" rummage sale!!!

OK, for those of you that are cancelling because of this small increase, pick a town, line up, and offer all of your stuff to people that are sticking around!

Arlaine...you're a genius!!!

Strat

01-13-2004, 01:07 PM

I see no problem with a price increase, as I am sure you guys are going to really star working on some problems with the game right away. And hey I have only one account like a normal person does and have been paying 9.95 for 4 years now. You need some more cash? Fine, and if anyone leaves well all the more housing for me!

ThorSonofOden

01-13-2004, 01:18 PM

Its really to bad that the price has to go up & i understand that, but it seems everything is going up these days and its really getting out of hand. To that end, i'll be canceling my other account as soon as the price goes up. I could not afford to pay almost $26.00 a month:( :(

Chubasco

01-13-2004, 01:25 PM

This is a nominal fee increase which I would have gladly paid. However, within the context of the xp chain and game-balance nerfs this game will no longer be worth $9.95, nevermind $12.95 + $39.95 (or whatever the cost of the expansion pack).

After 4 years of playing this game we have all rolled with the punches, from bugs, imbalance, and lack of CoC enforcement to major changes and character nerfs.

At this point the most valuable things in this game are my investment of time in my main character, which has continued to be nerfed, and the anticipation of enjoying the fruits of my investment, which becomes more unlikely with each patch.

Initially I was very excited about Turbine taking the reins back from M$. Now, I am muling the items in my house in preparation for cancelling my account.

Panoramix

01-13-2004, 01:34 PM

Hi,

I'm back :)

I think, it's time for hints Sir Ibn.

The comunity of Asheron's Call is " nervous ". You can understand.

1° :

In sale's announce, i have seen that you want not change billing system ( with M$ ), ok no problem but, plz change Login System. Net Passport is bad and Zone.com is frequently down.

2° :

You want change graphism, ok Good idea, for 12$/month...same SWG or DAOC, it's minimum.

3°

All people and financial people think same: AC2 is not necessary. It's impossible to combine 2 world ? Same mythologie and TWO world...it's not good, it's illogic. That smelling money time...ho...poor guy's :(

4°

Create other billing system and a good licence key system. Now it's impossible to buy ACDM :(

Sir Ibn, write the news now ! NOW !

Nota: i want receive a mail notification for the raise price ! if Zone.com mailer system can make transfer !

good luck.

wintergale

01-13-2004, 01:54 PM

Dear Turbine,

I strongly hope that the new world will be a new Darktide. Turbine has already once made a new "white server". And I feel once is enough, not to mention there are already many other white servers and only one Darktide. A new Darktide world would give those of us currently on Darktide as well as the many many pk lite players from the white servers the opportunity to compete on a level playing field without all the chained up macroed overpowered characters that are roaming the rest of the servers. I am certain the pk lite players will be able to make the transformation to real PK it merely is a few items and some vitae. Please DO NOT make a full time PKlite server this will be an enormous mistake.

Also, please if you do make a new server fix all the exploits such as fast cast, slide cast, slide gulping of elixers all the cheats that some people have completely mastered. I also suggest blocking all but several decal plugins. Only buffing and communication plugins should be allowed.

Thank-You

phitch

01-13-2004, 02:33 PM

Okay, I understand that a price increase has to happen. Turbine has goals to meet and people to pay. As stated they aren't a hosting company they are a developer. I think that in and of itself is enough to warrant a price increase but a few things stand out on this that need to be addressed and not in the future but now.

If you are paying for something and then the price increases you usually get a pretty conclusive explaination as to why. Here is wht you get for your money sort of deal.

Turbine, I understand that you need to build the server farm over again. I can understand the large money increase in that. I also understand the need to bring life back to this game via an expansion. Yet, I am curious about certain things.

Information is the biggest key to selling anything. Yet, all we have is a vague graphic update statement and that's it. Speculation aside, wouldn't it be the wiser to make available screenshots of this update? Or perhaps tell us exactly what is going into the next expansion? Something that we can think about for a while and ponder on. Something to get us excited and hopping?

I don't yet see this information and don't expect to. I honestly believe that the expansion will need to so grand that no one can deny the money is well spent. A 4 year old game is nice, but wouldn't it be easier to create a new AC using the skill set and player set up from AC1 with a new graphics engine? I would assume that would be easiest. A new game gets people excited, look at EQ as of late they plop an expansion out every 6 months. They work because they add so much to the game while keeping the fundemental parts alone.

A new server in Ac would be great, just a quick question though, where is the population coming from? Waht are they going to level on? Last time I checked there wasn't much after level 10 to level on near any towns. I believe the monster rebalancing took care of that. Q'albar is full of level 50+ mobs. A level 10 is going to have some issues killing them without buffs. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not sure I have tried starting a newbie character and leveling it in a while. Especially without buffs.

Housing is another issue. It killed towns because you only need a tie to the best selling towns and home. No need to use a meeting hall at all.

How about we convert Meeting halls to a bustling area for town government and then we add an area, as I've suggested to recieve dynamic quests from the town. "Go kill the raiding banderling camp outside town to the north." So on...

I guess in the end, like most people, I want to know what the 12.95 is going for, not just have some vague ideas. That's all really.

jaclin

01-13-2004, 02:55 PM

Very reasonable and still the best bang for you buck when it comes to entertainment! Thanks

Triane

01-13-2004, 05:35 PM

Heh -- I guess I struck a little to close to the bone: they went and deleted my entire post without a word about it, just swept it under the rug.

(it's reposted here (http://www.loyalknights.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=204&st=0&) if you'd like to read it).

Anyway, as I was explaining to them all about how, by raising their rates, they were losing 52% of the income I generated for them, I guess this is just their subtle way of saying they'd rather lose it all...

-Triane

Tickedy_Thief

01-13-2004, 05:36 PM

Tickedy likes it :D

korebantic

01-13-2004, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by Last Man
If including some good 3rd party application's features... some 6th sense ability with some auto buffing would cover most people... and COMPLETELY ELIMINATING 3rd party apps is what it takes....I strongly encourage you to consider it.

Katani / PA-IN DT
Last Man / P-A-I-N MT [/B]

If I was told that I could pick only one feature from the 3rd party utilities to incoporate into the game, it would be the auto buffing ones. The current spellcasting UI is just horrible...

MisterBlack

01-13-2004, 05:57 PM

I'm sure this will p*ss some people off, but so what :)

In a way I'm glad that I see a lot of people with multiple accounts will be dropping some of their extra accounts (or in some case apparently quitting altogether). Why would this make me happy? The main reason is a lot of the multiple account people have houses on every freakin account, it really pis*es me off that you have in some cases a single live player that has 5 frickin houses, making it impossible for me to get one for my one account. So I hope this might free up some housing :) As for the price increase, well try playing just about any other MMOg out there these days, $12.95 is the common price point. Sorry to sound so harsh, but if you don't want to pay $12.95 a month for AC then don't, there are plenty of other things you can do with your $12.95 for a month's entertainment:
1) Go to a movie (if you go to matiness you can probably get 2
movies!)
2) Go out to eat at your favorite fast food restaurant.
3) Rent 3 or 4 DVD's at Blockbuster.
I'm sure there are plenty of other things beyond this but you get the idea. $12.95 for a month's entertainment is an exceptional value, now if you are not being entertained then by all means don't keep playing, those of use who are will.

Zero_Washu

01-13-2004, 06:04 PM

Ibn,

A few questions about the new world if you please.

1. Will you cap online population on this new server? I fully expect it to be very crowded.

2. Will any attempts be made to minimize the crowding in the new player training halls? Since you reduced starting cities to 3 this could present a big problem.

3. Will this world be subject to more monitoring to prevent UCM? Specifically, will YOU BAN for it PERMANENTLY. This is my major holdout to renewing.

4. Will you revist the spawns so that some of the new player quest areas can actually be reached by below level 20th non-twinked characters?

Triane

01-13-2004, 06:04 PM

...to hear that lapsing your subscription does NOT lose you your house: As long as you don't delete the toon that "owns" the house, AND have one account left active (or have a friend that does), you can keep all those houses for as long as you care to keep paying the rent.

Personally, neither of my cottages nor my villa will be going up for sale anytime soon, whether or not I keep any of my accounts active (I know enough ppl who play this that at least one of them will probably keep an account open). Now, to give you a little hope: this is just in case AC1.5 is worth paying for, since there's no reason to lose my various domiciles before then. If Ac1.5 sucks, there'll probably be TONNES of housing for sale thereafter. (At least until the courts crate-up whatever's left of Turbine for sale to the creditors)

Sorry to burst your bubble...

-Triane

PS: For the $45 a month I spend on AC, I could play SW:G, Horizons AND one other NEW game (like WoW maybe). So why would I pay it to play something that's 4 years old? Tell ya what, I know where I can get my hands on the original Space Ace arcade game, if I stick it in a mall someplace you think I'm still going to get the $2-per-play that it used to cost to play it? AC1 is OLD. By technological standards it is one-and-a-third generations behind, so by what possible reasoning does it warrant paying top-dollar for? Would you pay the full-on "new" sticker price for a 4-yr-old computer? of course not... somebody here has to get a clue. When Turbine releases AC1.5, and IF it meets the standards of an MMP written for the 2004 market, THEN come back to me and we can revisit the issue.

To simpify my argument: $9.95 is the rate for a 1999 game (which AC1 IS), $12.95 is the rate for a 2004 game (which AC1 most CERTAINLY is NOT).

Ardham

01-13-2004, 06:53 PM

I've read all of the posts...

It seems to me Turbine that the majority of the voices who have posted say the same thing:

Don't raise my prices untill you give me more information.
Don't raise my prices untill you fix bugs.
Don't raise my prices unless I get something in return.

These are simple statements with the same theme...

We want an Expansion pack. We're willing to pay FOR that expansion pack. We're willing to pay more MONTHLY FOR that expansion pack. We aren't willing to pay more monthly for the same old service we've had for 4 years.

Why increase costs when we didn't ask as a community for a new server? Why increase costs when the datacenter you are moving into was a steal in comparason to like facilities across the US? Why increase the cost when we're not getting any more programmers than srand or Zyrca to do it?

I mean if you want us to pre-pay for AC1.5, I'll gladly fork over the bucks for my main acct to have the priviledge of that expansion when it ships to dl it the day it ships. I don't need a fancy box or a CD, just an EXE. Hell I'm even willing to pay $15/month ahead on that acct... just don't make me pay that same account for my mules who do nothing but stand at the mansion buffing clanmates.

Basic AC1.0/ACDM should cost $10/month.
Expansion with better graphics, etc SHOULD cost $15/month.

I'm willing to pay now if you're willing to pre-sell it now. But I'm not willing to fork over $13/acct for 5 accts in my home. I'll fork over $15/month for me and $15/month for my wife for the priviledge of DL'ding the EXE the day it's available but I don't want to pay $13 for all 5 accts that aren't utilizing the expected results.

Ok... sure $30 for me and my wife and $30 for the other 3 accts is $60/month... $13x5 = $65 not much more, I agree... but it's that $5/month that I have a problem with with no real use for the expansion.

ACDM was a marketing tool... it got housing for people but really when you consider the bottom line we're still paying the same monthly between the 2 different contents.

AC1.0 should have been $10/month
ACDM should have been $12/month
AC1.5 should BE $15/month

But MS chose not to take the stance for ACDM at $12 because people didn't want to pay that kind of price for an ancient MMORpg and ancient graphics knowing at that time of AO/EQ Expansions.

Learn from history... move forward into better prices, retain the old accts at the same price. You are still making a profit.

We want to know WHAT ARE WE GETTING for that extra $3/month? It better damn well be more than just content, changes to how the game has been for 4 years and a new server that we didn't really want.

ooh neat you turned on /a.... hmm... you promised this 2 years ago.

ooh neat you fixed XP chains... great we wanted that fixed 3 years ago.

ooh neat you added a new monster and changed the spawn at the caul to be more deadly.

frankly Turbine these all suck to me. We had workarounds either in Decal or as a community for most of those problems AND why change the caul when we already have the VoD?

coffejunky

01-13-2004, 07:13 PM

Hi, if the new server is purely pvp i will make a character and lvl it.

If Asheron's Call 3 is made (ac1 with uber graffics) i would pay $15 a month or more easy...... but not another ac2...... you know what i'm talking about... needs the same magic kinds with players dropping items upon death and the ac1 attribute/stat system with combat modes

*edit "You had a hit go with that. just attach new pretty graffics to the same stuff and an influx of new players is sure to follow

Davidge

01-13-2004, 07:14 PM

I guess I do not have a problem with the rate hike.

After all, I would not want to work at a job that never gave me a raise, and this works out to a fairly minimal raise when amortized over 4 years.

However, I would like to see some fixes to the billing system.

1) Combined statement and CC billing. Right now I get several seperate billings from MSN Zone. Since my CC's were all placed on a fraud alert last year I get almost monthly calls about the repeat charges from MSN, the CC thinks they might be redundant.

2) The ability to change my monthy billing cycle to a date more friendly to my income schedule. ;)

3) Easier and more secure methods to update my billing info. https is not all that secure anymore.

Grayson

01-13-2004, 07:15 PM

Holy cow. I know I shouldn't be surprised, but the number of people screaming bloody murder about the price increase is pretty sad.

Folks, there's this thing called inflation. Even if there were NO other considerations, expecting the same service to cost the same amount for 4 years is naive. If $3 a month is going to make a difference whether you play AC or not, then it's probably a good thing you cancel - it'll give you more time to do something like *work*, so $3 isn't even a consideration.

Ibn, whatever you guys and gals decide to do - do it, and don't do half-measures. I'm sure you know that you won't please everybody, so do whatever you think is best, and stick to your guns on that. Turbine has continually shown that it's capable of listening to player feedback, and forging it's own course. Keep it up :)

sylphia

01-13-2004, 07:22 PM

If you care to read back through the posts, alot of folks who are decrying the rate increase ALSO include the following proviso: If you had timed it better, we would be happily forking over more cash. There are plenty of good improvements that have been, and that will be made to this game. Regardless of economic reasoning for a rate increase, this would have been much better presented along with some of those positive changes.

Remember when the only cough medicine you could take tasted like a the south end of a north-bound horse? When you were 3 years old, did Mommy just force it down yoru throat and tell you to like it, or did she give you something sweet to go with it, to cut the taste?

In this respect, you treat your customers like 3 years olds. You give them something they LIKE to go with what they obviously will NOT like. No one can honestly tell me that they are thrilled just to be ALLOWED to pay more for the same game; we each find our own justification for why we AGREE to pay it and keep playing. Turbine SHOULD have offered us a little sugar with the cough medicine. Them, there would still be some folks that quit over it, because they honestly cant afoord a hike, or dont think its worth it. But there wouldnt be anywhere near the massive uproar there is now, where we got a shot of nasty medicine, followed immediately by castor oil. Yummy.

Aeroflinn

01-13-2004, 07:29 PM

ROFLMAO

Wayndor

01-13-2004, 07:39 PM

Seems the answers are slowing down!

Will players still using land lines be forced out of the game?

Will players in Europe be able to get the expansion pack at or around the same time or be ignored?

Will getting rid of lag be a major concern?

Triane

01-13-2004, 07:43 PM

... and most people would USUALLY agree that you don't pay NEW rates for OLD software. *shakes head*

Grayson Said:Folks, there's this thing called inflation
There's also a little thing, well, in the computer field it's not so little, called depreciation.

How much would YOU pay for an average 4 year old computer? $1500? $1000? $100?...

How much would YOU pay for a copy of Windows Me (which was also released in 1999)?

If you were in a store shopping for MS Office, and saw Office 98 sitting beside Office XP (released in 2002) and BOTH were listed at $250, which one would you pick up? (and wouldn't you wonder what was going on in their minds asking the same price for the much older product?)

You might ask, "Well doesn't inflation apply to these things too?" The answer is probably "maybe", but even if it DOES apply, it doesn't represent a significant factor in relation to the depreciation in the same period! We're all playing AC1, which is a four year old software product. We're STILL paying full rate for what amounts to a significantly depreciated software package.

Of course, Turbine has some creative accountants: they figure that they SHOULD be able to sell me a 4-year old computer for the same price as one made today... they think I should be willing to pay the same price for their four-year-old MMP technology as I am for 1 month-old MMP technology. They (of course) offer no GOOD rationalisation for this, they simply say that if it's good enough for NEW products, it should be good enough for OLD. In THIS industry that's a patently absurd assertion of the grandest scale.

FOUR YEAR OLD SOFTWARE IS NOT THE EQUAL OF CURRENT SOFTWARE fiscally or otherwise. Who would've thought that this would be a difficult concept for people to understand?

Monthly "patches", which all to often meant nerfs for one class or another do NOT amount to improved technology. Ibn even stated that the AC2 tech (which is even now almost 2 years old) is too new for the AC1.5 release, which will probably represent a "doubling" of the AC1 polygon count. This is because using the AC2 engine would reduce monthly content as result of the increased detail. Thus the expectation is that Ac1.5 (expected by most optimists in ~1 year) won't even come up to the level of technology that's 2 years old NOW. Nevertheless, Turbine says we should all start paying the full-present-day-software-rate for AC1 anyway....

Maybe it's something in their water that makes them this crazy...?

Here's the gap: IF they updated AC1 every year, such that each year it represented the CURRENT level of software development in this field, THEN (and ONLY THEN) would it be worth the current year's "rate". They've NOT done this, but expect to charge present-day rates anyway...

Worst of all, they keep playing the tune and so many people here just keep nodding and smiling... as long as you're all spellbound, the only ones who win are Turbine's VC (venture capitalist) backers.

-Triane

Endy

01-13-2004, 07:52 PM

The problem, Triane, with that logic is that Asheron's Call is not a static game. You add in all of the updates that have happened ervy single month over that same period of time, and it's a much different game. So no, you are not paying for 4 year old software. Not to mention, you aren't really paying for the software anyways. You paid for the software when you bought your copy. Since then, you have been paying for the service to play the game.

I'm not for or against the increase either. I am taking a wait and see attitude. I will say that I don't really want to pay $15 a month... not unless they were updating the engine and not just the artwork that goes on top of the engine. I'll pay $3 more than I was to insure that we get more good things coming. What worries me is if Turbine decides to raise the amount again when they release the expansion.

Triane

01-13-2004, 08:04 PM

The ENGINE IS the SOFTWARE, and it's not significantly different from the one they originally released. There's different candy draped on it, but at the core, it's 4+ years old and getting older.

The monthly fees for a 4-year-old engine are $9.95, the monthly fees for a MODERN MMP engine, are $12.95

Ac1 IS NOT, NOR WILL IT BE (according to Ibn) based on a MODERN MMP engine, thus it is NOT worth $12.95

Patches? you mean like Candy Canes? Snow Globes? Door Bells? or maybe you mean the 2 years where my battle mage took month-after-month of nerfs b/c "mages are too powerful"? Are THOSE the kinds of "new" "features" you're referring to? the ones that should encourage me to pay 4 accounts' worth of money for just 3 accounts?

-Triane

PS: From my examples above, BOTH Windows Me, and Office 98 have had regular and many updates available to them (via WindowsUpdate.microsoft.com or via OfficeUpdate.microsoft.com). Does that mean you'd pay the same for them today as for Windows XP or Office XP? I didn't think so....

PPS: Grayson: US$3 per month is CDN$5 per month, times 3 accounts: CDN$15 per month, or the cost of a fourth account. If I wanted to spend enough for four accounts every month, I'd HAVE four accounts. Now I just get 3 accounts for the COST of 4. At the VERY LEAST that's HUNDREDS of packslots of storage and 5 more characters I should get for that money. Next month, however, Turbine says I should pay 4-accounts worth of money in return for absolutely nothing at all, and I'm very, VERY ANGRY that they've somehow rationalised that idea to themselves. As for your snide comment: I'm the Network Administrator for a mid-sized company and I do fine. My objection to this is on principle, not on fiscal capacity.

Endy

01-13-2004, 08:30 PM

Actually, that's not accurate. That would be like saying that 2 different games that use the same engine are the exact same game. I don't have any examples off the top of my head, but there are plenty of games out there that use an existing engine and then put all the stuff on top to make it their own and tell whatever story they are using.

Sure, those things were part of patches. So were bug fixes and tinkering and story arcs and much more.

Also, compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. When you purchased your copy of AC:DM, that's when you bought the license. Same as when you purchase OfficeXP or Windows98 or whatever. What you pay for in your monthly fee is not paying for software. It's paying for a service. Part of that service is to be able to play the game. You don't pay, you don't play. But you still own your copy of the software. So your example just doesn't work.

So depreciation doesn't work. So now you have to think about the cost of running the game... running the service they are providing and what you are paying for. This includes the cost of maintaining the server hardware, the connection to the internet, and salaries of all the people who are inolved in keeping the game dynamic and running and possibly more things I am just not thinking of right now. That cost has probably gone up over the years, so inflation probably does come into play.

Triane

01-13-2004, 09:00 PM

No, it's like saying any number of different software packages based on the same engine, are based on the same engine.

Is there ANY amount of graphical "candy" I could drape on the Doom1 engine that would entice you to pay full-rate for that game if I were to put it on the shelves today? No

The Ac1 Engine is essentially the same as it was four years ago: The polygon counts haven't increased significantly, the trees are still crossed 2d images. There aren't any object-shadows, the UI is static. You can't go under water or swim, or even SEE the bottom. Basically things that are considered MINIMUM standards in current software don't (and WON'T) exist in AC.

I pay money to play the game every month. Whatever it costs Turbine to provide that game is NOT my problem. Like in any customer-vendor transaction, it's a trade-off: I give you money, you give me back an item or service in exchange. Turbine is saying that they're going to charge me a premium price for their product even though it IS NOT a premium game. They're in a marketplace, for this price, there are MUCH better offerings (read up-to-date). Meanwhile AC1 is four years old in its core and the upgrade they're talking about won't even bring the engine up to 2002 standards! Not that that should prevent them from charging 2004 prices. This is not a "good deal", it doesn't even make sense (except from Turbine's perspective, insofar as the idea of making premium dollars for OLD software probably sounds VERY good!). The way I see it, the revenue stream that was SUPPOSED to come from Ac2 needs to be made up, the Ac2 GAME was a dramatic flop and they've been madly scrounging ever since it's release. Now they're falling on us, their hard-core supporters to carry that burden for them, and there's no GOOD justification for it. Both Star Wars Galaxies and Horizons (both released in 2003 w/ 2003 software standards) are significantly better software products than AC1 is today and both are still burdened with recouping their initial investments, and both charge $12.95 per month. Turbine has long since recouped their initial investment on Ac1, so their "profit" is ALREADY greater than the other offerings. If AE and Lucas' can run their games AND recoup initial investments at $12.95, why can't Turbine run their (already paid for) game at 75% of that?

If I said, in another thread, that Horizons and SW:G have so much more capability within their respective engines (as compared especially against the AC1 engine) I'd be greeted with legions of "duh-uh, AC1 is 4+ years old!" respones. Only in THIS thread do people trot out, "well it gets updated everymonth, so it's still new right?" without acknowledging just how rediculous that idea is.

Reread the 2nd last paragraph of the larger post above, it lays out the only possible way Turbine could justify charging the same rate for Ac1 as Artifact charges for Horizons or Lucas' charges for SW:G

Besides, what exceptional level of service does Turbine provide to justify charging a premium price for old software. I'd be willing to accept an argument that "okay, the software's old, but the customer service is second to none!" except that Turbine's never had better than mediocre customer support, and certainly nothing I'd classify as "premium".

All of these things are justifications for refusing to pay a premium rate for a 4-year old game. Monthly updates AREN'T keeping AC current with modern software features or capabilites, so their rates shouldn't be keeping pace with modern software's rates either. If ACDM goes back on the shelf next month, do you think they're gonna charge $40+ for it? Why do you suppose that is? Afterall, OTHER games cost that much, shouldn't AC1 too?

-Triane

PS: Story Arcs?! ROFLMAO -- other than giving someone over at Turbine something to do to justify his/her paycheck, how does a "storyline" in AC have any bearing on the player? Sure we get to read all about it, yadda yadda... but as a player there's NO WAY to interact with it. The last two took place in a vacuum, it was more than possible to play AC every day without any cognizance whatsoever of a "storyline". There's no dynamic impact of characters on storyline in AC: it's just "filler" to give you something to occupy yourself with as you kill tusker #4,785,638

Eagle four

01-13-2004, 09:03 PM

Well I for one will remain loyal, I have 2 accounts on AC and a few dollars more is a small price to pay, for hours of enjoyment.

As to the new world, will this be a graphically enhanced AC1 or just another server, time will tell. If its a graphically enhanced version, I hope we can transfer our toons there, because I certainly couldnt contemplate starting from scratch after 2 years of playing.

I congratulate Turbine on regaining the franchise, and look forward to a long future.

Kind regards Eagle Four and others. Australia.

wintergale

01-13-2004, 09:05 PM

I dont mind the price increase as long as something in return is done. I am not talking about some new hat or a new flag or snow on the ground in the winter and a bunch of rabbits around in the spring. I am talking about : FIXING THE EXPLOITS IMPROVING THE LAG (YES, THE SERVER LAGS ITS NOT JUST NORMAL INTERNET LATENCY). These are my two main concerns.

Here is a concept: make a new Asherons Call based upon the truly unique way one can create a character the character templates skills etc. keep all of this. Yet, jump into 2004 with a complete overhaul of graphics servers etc. Heck, I would pay 15 bucks a month and 49.95 for the initial game if it were done right. (not the way ac2 was done).

Endy

01-13-2004, 09:30 PM

You're not paying a premium. With the raise in rates, it's still less than the $15 a month for Star Wars Galaxies. Yes, $15. SWG may give people the option of paying for more time in advance and giving a price break, but not everyone can afford to pay that all at once and others may just plain choose not to do. Until Turbine takes over billing, we won't knwo if they are planning on a similar pricing scheme. So again, it's not the premium price which is $15.

As for the game engine, it has already been said that they can improve on what's already there. If I remember correctly, I think it was said that the resolution could be doubled. That will make quite a difference. But graphics don't make the game. As you said, AC2 was a bust, was it not?

For you to say that how much it costs Turbine to provide the game is not your problem, wrong again. If they can't do it in a cost effective manner, guess what? They stop doing it. That's how bsiness works. They don't owe you anything. The cost of doing business rises. This is why it costs more for a hamburger from Burger King now thne it did 20 years ago. Businesses do what they always do, pass on the rising costs to their customers.

Not to mention that you keep missing a very big point... the monthly fee is not paying for software, it's paying for a service. You can talk all you want about how outdated the software is, but you already paid for it. So the question becomes, are you still having as much fun? If not, then I can see where your problem with paying more is. But maybe then you should be looking for another game instead? For me, I am having just as much fun, if not more fun, then when I started playing years ago. To me, that's what matters. If all these other games are so much more fun with their different features, it seems to me that you should be playing them, and not AC.

As for if they rerelease AC:DM, no, it won't cost as much as it did when it first came out, because that is the actual software and not the service. You really should stop confusing the two.

Now, when you talk about what Turbine is doing now with the service we pay for to make it worth more then it was... first, as I said, costs rise and they can use that to justify the increase and tell us, their customers, that's it. However, I don't think that's the case. Ok, new server... eh, I don't know if that would justify it for me, but for many other players, they have been wanting a new server for awhile now.

Like I said in my first post here, I am taking a wait and see attitude. Without Microsoft tying their hands, I'd like to see what Turbine is going to do. that's really all we can do. In the menatime, if you don't wanna pay the increase, then don't. They can't force you to continue paying for their service... they can't keep you from going somewhere else. ;)

Edit to say something about your edit: What about the bugs? What about Gaerlan? They involved everyone. Do they have some huge story arc every month? Just because you didn't like it doesn't mean that everyone else felt the same way. Maybe it's because you yourself are stuck on tusker island? I prefer to roam the landscape, myself. ;)

Soloist

01-13-2004, 09:41 PM

Originally posted by Triane
I pay money to play the game every month.

Why? Why haven't you moved onto one of those other, techicnally superior, games? Why are you willing to pay even $9.95 for such a sub-standard product?

Soloist

Triane

01-13-2004, 09:52 PM

Hehe -- I've been playing Horizons since it came out. But like many others, I've put a lot into AC, and I've ENJOYED AC. At $9.95 per account per month, AC is worth the money to me. It is ABSOLUTELY NOT worth $12.95 per account per month with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER offered in return for that increase. They're picking my pocket for ~$180 per year without giving ME anything. That's NOT how a customer-vendor relationship is SUPPOSED to work. Most people object when a vendor tries to tell them they have to pay more today for a product that is no different than yesterdays. Peculiarly this crowd seems to be full of people for whom that's a totally okay thing.

Understand: I don't object to paying more, IF I get VALUE for my money. Turbine, however, is taking more of my money, but they're offering ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY NOTHING AT ALL in exchange for 133% of what I'm paying now! That's OBSCENE and is why I object so strenuously. Furthermore, if their promises of what's coming are good enough for you, I've got prime land in Florida I need to sell you!

They've promised the moon before and have RARELY lived up to their promises completely.

-Triane

Endy

01-13-2004, 09:56 PM

Now, I like that argument much better than your previous ones. That makes sense. Hey, if it's not worth it to you, it's not worth it to you. Period.

As for what Turbine has promised before... keep in mind, they weren't calling the shots before. This is a whole new thing now that Microsoft is out of the picture... they have just made that obvious by the changes they are already making and how fast they are making them. But again, I am no fool. hence my wait and see attitude... just don't keep me waiting too long. ;)

HolloTip

01-13-2004, 10:00 PM

Will this be a pvp server?

Ardham

01-13-2004, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by HolloTip
Will this be a pvp server?

Typical answer from Turbine:

Rhymes with dough...

Rhymes with Bess...

Or their best one:

" (silence) "

sylphia

01-13-2004, 10:29 PM

Here is some food for thought.

One of the objections I am seeing to the price hike right now is that AC is an "old game". Never mind the service vs software part (which BTW I was going to post the service thing but someone beat me o that :D ). Lets look just at the age factor that is being harped on.

I remember when I started playing AC at retail, there was another game that was already well established (read: OLDER) than AC: EQ. Folks have been hokeying around on EQ servers LONG before AC showed up on the scene as the "new guy". Folks that came to AC were discontented with the massive amounts of game-time required to level a toon in EQ (and back then the cap was 50, as I recall, not the current lvl 65). Players came to AC and found that, by comparison, leveling was a breeze. Graphics were rughly on a par with each other, and while the game engines and class systems worked differently, they were more or less equivalent. No Space Age vs Stone Age competitions going on there.

Now, over the course of the years, both games have made alot of improvements. I wont list AC's cos you should be familiar with them by now. To list a few on EQ:

(1) The UI itself has become much more versatile and easier to use. The Devs of EQ not only ALLOW players to create their own custom UI files for use in the game, they GIVE them a list of any changes made to the system that may need to be updated on the players' skins. This is rather like giving our Decal folks the info at release to be able to immediately update Decal.

(2) Expansion. Lots of them, and each one introduced a new major functionality to the game. You had to pay for each expansion, but hey they made it so you would WANT to, to get the cool new features. One expansion offered a MASIVE upgrade to graphics (which is included in each subsequent expansion). Most expansions offer new playable races and/or classes. The more recent expansions offered a "portal" type system to make it easier/faster to get around. PoP offered a central meeting place for folks to share knowledge, train their skills, purchase key or rare items, and many other things. Luclin offered QUICKER LEVELING and the BAZAAR, which is wher eyou can purchase HORSES and where you can set up your very own, server-integrated trade bot. LDoN, the most recent expansion, offers a completely new quest system and re-introduces the attraction of dungeon crawling.

(3) CoC. Cant stress this enough. The fact that they have a good CoC, and the number of admins needed to back it up, AND the willingness to ban offensive players FOR GOOD means that their player base is a much more friendly group, on the whole.

(4) Content. Like AC, the EQ team gives live updates every month, now. They fix bugs, add new functionality, tweak/nerf classes as needed, toss in new quests, add new loot and mobs, create new dungeons; you know, the standard update stuff. Oh except one thing. There generally isnt as much in the way of a storyline arc as in AC. Sure, there are things going on in EQ, but you really dont see the impact of a current story arc like you do in AC. Abotu the only purpose it serves is to explain why there is a new dungeon and to give a hint where to go to find it.

(5) Leveling. Over the course of their expansions, EQ has added the ability to cruise through some of the lower levels. You can now attain lvl 30~ish with a fair amount of ease, and little time invested in the game to learn where to go. powerlevling has its own innate disavantages, due to the way their skill system works, but if you WANT to get to 30 and start experiencing some of the higher content and exploring, you can. The leveling slows down drastically after that, and yo uhave to start thinkning about actually investing in the game no in raw hours. You earn 65, trust me. And there is a level cap of 65 now, instead of 50. However, character development does not end at that cap. You have Alternate Advancement (AA's)--also added in an expansion--to continue to grow your toon.

(6) Pricing. When my roomie was playing EQ a couple years ago, it was $10, just like AC and pretty much all the other online games back them. About a year ago, he went back to the game, and I decided to go try it out, too. We were suprised at the subscription screen to find it had gone up to a whopping $13!! (GASP!!). No biggie, rates go up, right? Yeah, you mean there is a game OLDER than AC, which has been charging MORE than AC, for a LONGER period of time? Wow.

(7) Player base. Simply put, the player base in AC is rife with jerks. Griefing is practically encouraged in this game. The term I would prefer to use for many of the folks I meet on a daily basis in AC simply wont pass the filters on this board. EQ has a much friendlier base; it just does. I cedit it in large portion to their CoC, cos I have seen it in action; that and their admins. Most of them are actually players, who are being paid to take a shift and watch over things. It makes a difference. They are contributing to their own community. And they are doing their jobs. And there are plenty of them, so they cant be accused of NOT doing it simply cos they are under-staffed. And guess what? the size of the player base in EQ put even AC's prime to shame. Did I mention they also pay MORE?

OK, so after all that set-up, we come down to it. Take an honest look at AC, which is a YOUNGER game than EQ. EQ players are quite content playing an OLDER game, paying MORE for it, and have been for at LEAST a year that I can verify for certain. What is the fundamental difference (or differences) between the two games that makes them willing to pay the extra $3/month, on a game that levels slower, doesnt allow macros or bots (except those provided by the game system itself), and is OLDER than all of its competitors, while still maintiaing fierce player loyalty?

I am not going to answer that; everyone really needs to take a look at it on a personal level and see it for themselves. Why does the average EQ player feel content with $13/mo, when a LARGE chunk of the AC players cry FOUL on the same increase? Its not because of age, and its not because of software. :cool:

Triane

01-13-2004, 10:30 PM

They can't force you to continue paying for their service... they can't keep you from going somewhere else.

No, they can't, but you'd think they'd want to keep me paying them... it's what you'd think, but everything they're DOING (as opposed to all the stuff they're SAYING) says that they're just as happy if I go elsewhere. If they make the rate to play the same as NEW games, then they're SOL as far as I'm concerned. If I'm going to pay current rates, it'll be to play a game that has a current engine.

It's pretty simple, I'll pay yesterday's rates to play on yesterday's engine, or I'll pay today's rates to play on today's engine. Pretty elementary.

What about the bugs?What about them? The storyline made no impact as to my interaction with them. If I'd gone out and killed everybug everywhere all day, everyday, all month long, would THAT have had any impact on the story? Not in the least.

What about Gaerlan?What about him? One of the worst quests in the entire game IMO, I did it a few times before I got utterly FED UP with getting a freakin USELESS war wand, then never went again, did either of those things impact the so-called storyline? Nope.

They involved everyone.Oh really? involved them how? did their individual choices and actions impact the course of the story? Nope.

Do they have some huge story arc every month? Just because you didn't like it doesn't mean that everyone else felt the same way.Didn't like it? I'd need to be AWARE of it to like or dislike it. As I said, the storyline is meaningless in AC and you can play AC for 2 years with barely marginal awareness that there even IS a storyline and it won't change things one iota -- that is to say, it's a meaningless fiction to say the storyline is good for anything more than something to read when the servers are down.

Maybe it's because you yourself are stuck on tusker island? I prefer to roam the landscape, myself.I went to Tusker Island from the time it came out till I made 126 PRIMARILY for tusks (so every few weeks). I DID do some powerlevelling there, but the grind was too much for me to do it often. In the last 6 months that I "played" seriously, my largest enjoyment came from writing macro-bots (Fluff'n'Buff 3, BowHunter, and SpikeGolem were my "big 3"). Mostly b/c the rest of AC1 had become tedium.

I hold out (faint) hope that Turbine can make AC1 live again. I've always said that if they'd kept most of the Ac1 mechanics and developed the AC2 graphics engine for it, the product would've been AWESOME. But once again, they screwed that pooch too. Ibn referenced "doubling the resolution" on the AC1.5 engine, but that's a meaningless statement unless he MEANT doubling the polygon count: Heck, *I* can more than double the resolution of AC1, simply by setting it to 640x480 then changing it to 1280x1024 (the resolution I usually play in). So is Ibn trying to say I'll be able to go to 2560x2048? and if so, who cares? most people don't have a monitor that can go that high anyway. Besides, if there's the same number of polygons, the look will be exactly the same, only bigger. More polygons, on the other hand, will improve the overall look of everything, but at only 2x the AC1 number, it will still fall way below what most will consider acceptable in 2004. There's not even object shadows (or the capability for them) in Ac1, or a dynamic (3d) user interface.

None of this is a problem, UNLESS you're trying to compete with products that DO have all of these things, which, by upping their monthly rate, is exactly what Turbine is trying to do, and it's going to cost them a LOT of customers. About 40% of our AC1 allegiance has moved to Horizons. At least 3 of these people (who had been maintaining accounts on both games) have told me that their AC1 accounts will be closed pre Feb 1st and they'll move over there completely. Personally I'll be closing at least two accounts, and there is going to be a LOT of others (many who've posted) who will do the same. How does that translate to increased revenues for Turbine? In the attempt to grab another ~$180 a year from me, they'll now lose twice that instead. Thus we've both lost something; how is that a good move?

Nothing about this resonates as being well thought-out, and I'm angry that after 3 years of ardent play and communal support they're totally okay with treating us this way. I said "Yes" on the survey that asked if we'd be willing to pay more if there was a new client, and upgrades etc etc, but they're putting the cart before the horse here, and nobody's coming out a winner. :(

-Triane

Hamlit

01-13-2004, 10:38 PM

Hell, for $12.95/month, I'd pound purple monkeys up your a$$!

Goro

01-14-2004, 12:50 AM

My two cents:

Overall I think Turbine has done well by AC1. I'm looking forward to them having an increased level of control over the game.

I'll never like paying more for something, but I understand the increase and could probably live with it. (two accounts, looking to get a third)

The allegiance xp "nerf" seems quite extreme. I thought Turbine was supposedly being cautious with changes like this, making them in smaller increments so they could better evaluate the impact. Not only does this seem to be a case of the pendulum swinging too far to the opposite side, the timing of it seems incredibly poor when you consider the price increase.

I'm in a major city, am reasonably proficient at finding things on the internet, and I can't find a new AC CD/Key to save my life. (I missed the AC download opp.) I'd have a third account by now if I could - gotta have that storage space.

I'm concerned for the near term viability of the game. Online population has radically decreased over the last two years. I believe (but don't know) that many of the paying players left have multiple accounts and rely heavily on passup xp to level secondary toons and mules. A lot of the older players that I know are not playing as much and rely on that passup xp to also help their primary toons progress somewhat so they aren't completely stagnant. I agree with many folks here that AC will see a significant reduction in the number of paying accounts, at least until the expansion has been out for a bit.

I'd like to see Turbine consider the following:

Reduce or even postpone the fee increase until the expansion comes out.

Temper the xp nerf. Cut the passup by maybe half and don't make the decrease a geometric or logarithmic function for now. Give it a month or two to evaluate the impact and to let the existing user base get used to it.

Get at least an AC basic download and activation key acquisition online asap. It would be nice to see ACDM available as well, perhaps at a nominal charge for the initial download(5.95) reflecting the increased content available.

Possibly price the different content levels differently. AC basic remains at 9.95, DM at maybe 11.95, the new expansion at 13.95 or 14.95. This would also give multi-account holders a better opportunity to moderate their costs.

Again, just my two cents worth.

sollo

01-14-2004, 12:58 AM

Dear Turbine,

I mailed whoever is in charge of your marketing 2 of my used college marketing 101 books. Hopefully, he/she will read it.

And another thing, I appreciate you lieing to us. You specifically said "There will be no changes that would effect anyone with the transfer of the franchises". Well you didn't tell the truth, the subscription price was $9.99 a month up until the first month Turbine got AC1 DM back.

Thank you for the wonderful 4 years but the latest news with your subscription increase and your "allegiance changes" is too much for me to stay around.

sonohito

01-14-2004, 03:55 AM

Turbine has developed AC into a game deserving of my 12.95 per month, which is moreso than i can say about FFXI, SB, or AC2(:P)

Netmage

01-14-2004, 06:10 AM

After reading the entire thread this one and the XP chain nerf thread.

I see many threats about people leaving. Half of them never do, but I suppose its just as well if they do. Pls PM me your date/time you will be giving your stuff away.

I semi-support the change in billing and the change in XP Chain, timing is questionable however I'll explain my thoughts.

XP Chain change, LONG overdue! I'm sure this was because of constraints by MS. I look at it this way, First month of Turbine ownership and BAM a long over due MAJOR change. Tho it is a little late and because of that it hurts the current allegiances, it may spice things up just a bit for those who stay. However Mansion owners will be upset as they see their Rank 6 get punished because of XP chainers. I can state this as I run a small allgegiance with no XP chain and a Mansion. I will be the one who gets bit in the Ash for it as ppl scramble for change in passup. So with that said, you must inturn not punish the non-offenders. Remove rank 6 on mansions. Other justifacations about mansions can be read here.

http://vnboards.ign.com/AC_Developers_Board/b5142/62037418/p2
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Billing increase- Well nobody likes to pay more money, heck im strugling with paying my bills now. However since you are changing the billing rate to match that of AC2 which ironically is mostly dead. Hmm told you so came to mind, but well thats water under the bridge. I strongly suggest to offer something more to your loyal fans then just a wish and a prayer.
my suggestion.

Make both games playable under one fee 12.95 a month and you have the option to play both games, sorta like a 2 for 1. This does not affect your loyal fans (ones who one AC2 disks) as they get a bonus.

Making available 2 games for 1 monthly fee of 12.95 By doing this you may increase revenue on AC1 with justifacation.

Release prepaid cards, you may also find a way to implement this so new users can download the cd (no reason to repackage ACDM). Myself alone I've turned away 2 new users because of the credit card thing and noplace to buy the game. They were underage, with consenting parents. By allowing the game to be downloaded and subscriptions be purchased at EB or something, you now increased NEW revenue.

Im sure there would be many problems to work out by making such a change, but well Its only a suggestion.

Good luck with your new baby.

coma_black

01-14-2004, 07:37 AM

well the only thing i am a bit depressed over is this... i own 3 accts 2 of which i have ACDM on and 1 that doesn't.

i have searched far and wide to get a copy so that i could upgrade but as yet no go.

i think the exsisting subscribers should have a chance to get this upgrade. this should be addressed when the price increase goes into effect.:mad:

when the expansion comes close to being released to the public i think exsisting subscribers should get first dibbs before it hits the store shelves.:rolleyes:

morrigan

01-14-2004, 07:43 AM

As for what Turbine has promised before... keep in mind, they weren't calling the shots before. This is a whole new thing now that Microsoft is out of the picture... they have just made that obvious by the changes they are already making and how fast they are making them. But again, I am no fool. hence my wait and see attitude ... just don't keep me waiting too long.

Endy, I am with you all the way on that comment you made, however I think people fail to forget, Turbine and MS did this together.

I said before, it is all to easy to blame just one party as the bad guy. But you do not go into a business partnership without ground rules being laid out as to what works for whom in a partnership. BOTH are to blame for who was allowed to call the shots. Do I like MS, no, but but to think Turbine is the innocent victim in what was allowed is not true. Therefore, they share the responsibility in what went wrong as well as what went right in this game. It is funny to see over the years people say BOO MS when things were bad, but YEAH Turbine when things went right. When the truth is, both should have received the boo's and praise.

Hence, my wait and see attitutde. I still do not see any developer responding to the questions asked as to how they will deal with exploits in this situation.

The rate increase is reasonable. The new server and xp nerf of what was "their" game dynamic and said for years was working properly, is not (not without answers as to how they will deal with the continuing problems). And that is not what is being shown.

I am a consumer that says, show me the vaule for my increase and i will be there in a game I love. Show me that the same patterns for the last almost four years I played will be the same and I will not. However, my time limit is up till the rate increase goes in to effect.

And anyone that says, go I get your house? LOL you are more than welcome to my apartment :)

Protes

01-14-2004, 07:47 AM

I've been impressed so far with all the changes that are happening with AC1. After hearning the news of AC buying MS out of the franchise I have returned back to playing AC1.

I can manage paying an additional $3.00 a month per account, but I am hoping that in the near future we'll see the servers hardware being upgraded.

I upgraded my computer to play FFXI Online and I experienced zero lag, yet when I play AC1 I encounter severe server lag. I thought in the past that perhaps my Internet connection or my computer was the cause for lag, but I am confident that this is not the case after spending over a month playing FFXI Online.

Chromium Golem

01-14-2004, 09:05 AM

The price increase seems bad to me. It seems like the lag on HG is now worse than ever. When I try running anywhere I often get stuck like I'm on a treadmill. The lag is so bad I have considered quitting the game. Now a price increase on top of that is just another reason to reconsider if this game is really worth it anymore.

As for the new world, I'm not going to start over. It takes too long to level up to where I feel comfortable playing.

Rocky McStone

01-14-2004, 09:34 AM

Ohh My Goodness I nearly busted a gut when I read about Allegiance Chat LMAO...

Did they ever get that working right on AC2 what a mess..

Price Increase: Ok I'm not really buying the fact that cost have gone up so we are increasing our prices. The game still looks the same and feels the same as it ever has. Wait expansion pack is coming out - WHEN?? I use to play a game called Ultima Online and they always announced new stuff was appearing but would never release it until something in the marketplace would cause them to lose player base. So at this point I'm expecting this fairy tale Expansion Pack to appear when World of Warcraft comes out. I'm actually pretty happy AC announced price changes - I was going to open a second account but now I don't have to.

In regards to new server: The only reason for a new server at this point is to see who can level the fastest (period).. Also I can't fathom why a new server was even brought up except to appease and distract the masses from the price increase.

I slowly see AC going the way of AC2

Take Care...

Therock

01-14-2004, 10:44 AM

I am all for the changes! And for those getting rid of your other accounts, we will make up for it when they get the game for sale again. I will replace one or two of your second accounts, as I still and always have loved Dereth...

phitch

01-14-2004, 10:55 AM

lose when the expansion comes out?

A 4 year old game with 4 year old graphics is going to really horde in all the new players. I can certainly see that happening. Just like the multitude that jumped to AC when Dark Majesty was realeased, all 5 of the new players that is.

We aren't talking a major facelift, it's doubling the resolution and no one knows what the h-e-double-hockey-sticks that means. We are still seeing sparse information and by sparse I mean none. Oh well, I like the game enough to continue but I really wish I could get some information on the game.

Much like Everquest when they create an expansion they also give the players something to go by. Some reason to want the game. They go out and they make known all the information.

So please, just give us information!

coffejunky

01-14-2004, 11:23 AM

Please, for the health of the long term ac community do not make the new server PKL.

It was a great concept for white servers, works well in that respect. But the most compelling server to make at this point would be a purely pvp one. There would be a reason to fight, defeating an opponant would mean a reward, a real wealth of content that isnt present in any other kind of server. A true competition for control of dereth could take place. Why care about dieing or defending territory if there is nothing to lose or gain?

Edit* if that guys /\ /\ claim about the resolution being upgraded is correct, cheers that is good news

lazy-dt

01-14-2004, 12:06 PM

Plz make it red, we have way to many white servers and only one red one. on top of the fact that the lag is rediculas on dt. MAKE IT RED!

Phayt

01-14-2004, 06:02 PM

Man I hope for the addition of 30% to their revenue they will be putting in a new department at their company. Maybe a customer support department perhaps?

Kromeboy

01-14-2004, 06:49 PM

New Server Question: How will the new world be affected by the past story line, in particular, the Olthoi Queen will have never been slain on this new world. Will the first person to do so receive the same reward as those players that slayed her the first time (A Villa, big xp bonus) on the Legacy Servers?

Subscription Fee Increase Question: What exactly is the revenue raised by the increased subscription fee going towards? Is this some kind of unofficial "prepayment" to the future expansion pack? I think those of us that are concerned about it just want to be sure that we're paying for something we'll be seeing and not for other projects Turbine has in the works (D&D Online and Middle Earth Online to name a few). We all know that AC is the last MMPORG to still be charging 9.95$ a month, but at the same time we, as consumers, believe that you get what you pay for and if the price is going to be raised we should have some detailed information as to why.

Expansion Pack Question: I know we've heard that we'll be getting a graphics update, but you know us, we want numbers! If I remember right, our current characters are made up of 300-500 polygons, what will we be looking at in the expansion? Will there be an option to redesign how our characters look? If the User Interface is changed will there be an option (toggle via Options Panel perhaps) to load AC with the Legacy UI?

I know this is more then 3 questions, but I feel they are all equally important.

Thanks Ibn, keep up the good work!

Triane

01-14-2004, 07:05 PM

Phayt: Don't forget, yes, they DO have to put in a CSR department, and add several employees and infrastructure, however they are ALSO getting all the revenues (from your $9.95) that Microsoft used to get. So to Turbine, this increase is more like $8 per month per account. This is a MAJOR cash grab, however they try to hide that fact.

Lazy-dt said:
Plz make it red, we have way to many white servers and only one red one. on top of the fact that the lag is rediculas on dt. MAKE IT RED!What are you PK's smoking? They're already alienating a LARGE part of their playerbase, so under what POSSIBLE rationale (not that it seems like logic or reason play much part in many of Turbine's actions) could they use for making the new server interesting to what at best amounts to a marginal portion of the playerbase? If they make the new server white-dot, then people who despise PeeKay can still enjoy starting over on a new server. Furthermore, since there are also red-dot players on white servers, PK's who so desire can also enjoy the new server. White-dot servers also support PKL play. Thus, if they make it a PvP-only server, probably much less than 25% of the existing playerbase will have any interest in it, whereas a white-dot server would be useful to a much larger portion of the still-active players.

Based on Turbine's past performance I would be willing to make the following predictions:

(a) Turbine opens a brand-new AC1 server w/ the new XP changes in place. Many people from all servers start new characters there.

(b) After a few months, Turbine will suddenly announce the closure of one or more existing servers because "the size of the existing playerbase doesn't warrant" this many (nevermind that that's true now).

Take Note: The process of closing servers down the road is facilitated by them opening ONE new server now. By getting players, currently scattered across many servers, to come together on the single NEW server, they effectively consolidate them from many to one without FORCING us to consolidate.

If we do this of our own volition, then we spare them the trouble of either offering us incentives to do go, or "making it up to us" because they had to force us to go. This is a double-benefit for them from less outcry about server-closures and less labour to accomplish them. This new server is very likely the honey they're using to slip us their poison....

(c) By the end of the year I would expect 1 to 3 of the EXISTING servers to have disappeared. The remaining servers will be migrated to whatever AC1.5 becomes, probably with an eye to a Spring or Summer 2005 release (God forbid they get an attack of Atari-ism and force release of it early to make Christmas: Given how far they are on the process at present, I don't see any way they can get a brand new client (presuming we DO get a BRAND NEW CLIENT) and upgraded engine written and debugged before then! - They did AC2 in about a year, and look how well it turned out at release).

At release of AC1.5, there will be a pile of hypeand ANOTHER hike to the monthly rate. This seems reasonable as about the only logical reason for them ramming THIS one through now, is so that we have enough time to get accustomed to it before they upgrade and do it again. Furthermore if there is a beta program for AC1.5, I would expect the NDA to be tighter than anything we've seen before in order to prevent as much news as possible from reaching the players about how far below expectations it will be when released (personally I would not expect an AC1.5 beta program). Anyway, the massive cash-influx of everyone running out and buying AC1.5 will be used to fund the launches of MEOnline and D&DOnline, the disappointment of the upgrade, the small number of remaining servers the inability to effectively integrate brand-new players and fully-maxed-out-pre-xp-chain-nerf toons, AC1/DM/1.5 will be closed down as a "succesfull" 6/7-year-old program with a massive ROI. Any AC1.5 subscribees will be offered "discounted" entry into MEO or D&DO, subsidized by the cash-glut generated by the AC1.5 software sales.

Only time will tell how prognostic I am ;)

-Triane

Lajatang

01-14-2004, 09:47 PM

Did the price go up because Turbine is not with Microsoft anymore?

Hunter

01-14-2004, 10:45 PM

Way i see it,..

No need for a new world, since theres no new sales of the game, therefore no new players

So help the existing players

Your raising the cost by 30%
So give the players 30% more avatars
In other words we have 5 avatars per wolrd now,... increase it to 7 avatars per world.

Now thats an improvement i would pay for!

Ping_of_HG

01-14-2004, 11:06 PM

I can understand an increase in costs. It has been four years and Turbine has just purchased the rights back from Microsoft (which takes cash).

My concern is that the only thing being added is a new server. While a new server is great, I can already play the game on any server. The only thing that it does is allow is to provide a 'fresh' place to macro toons up. I expect several 126'ers in a month or two. In 6 months you won't even know that the server was 'new'.

Most game companies I have seen release EXPANSION packs that would add improved graphics/interface/extra land mass, that could only be obtained with the purchase of the expansion. The expansion would also require a higher fee to ensure the 'extra' content is covered every month.

At this point in time, Turbine has stated an increase in the fee will be made to match the other mmorpgs fees. I have a problem with the increase. The biggest difference between AC and games like EQ1, Horizons, DAoC, was that

a) either the game was released after AC and had more advanced graphics, sound, UI, etc,
or

b) the game has had numerous expansion packs. The expansion packs not only contained new content, but updated manuals, maps, AND graphics/UI improvements.

I understand that Turbine needs an increase but then I expect a new client with a modern UI to go with it.

In short, get an expansion pack out and I will pay for it, THEN bill me more per month.

Korrigan

01-15-2004, 02:55 AM

When I saw the two announcements, xpchains removed and new server, my first reaction was pure joy. But then I realized that if you don't remove third party applications, this new server will end like all the others : a dead world full of bots.

While combat macros (either attended or unattended) are still the worst plague of AC1, other bots are not much better :

- Buff bots : for me, they are as bad as combat macros. They totally remove awesome questing experience the low and mid levels provide in AC1. They also permit templates which rely on buff bots to survive. When you hunt or are questing with a fellowship and a level 80+ guy has to recall every now and then to go to the buff bot ... it kinda breaks the mood.

- Trade bots = unbearable lag and spam, marketplace = empty towns.

- Other plugins : me and my friends used Mejingarder for the allegiance chat via IRC. This is indeed a great feature, but apparently it's gonna to be included natively. Nerfus Buffus ... well ... who ever said AC was ment to be played full buffed with level VII spells 24/7 ? Learn what buffs you need to fight certain ennemies, learn how to setup your spellbars efficiently ... you can play without Nerfus Buffus, hell, we all did it !

- Make 126 a HARD cap. Once you hit 126, your char is finished, you cannot gain more XP. No more xp greed to max out all skills. And the powergamers will finally get bored and return to the other, unlimited worlds.

The point : there are already 7 white and 1 red server where you can powerlevel to 200+ using third party software, buff bots and whatever. Please make the new server REALLY different. Make it a pure server, where the only thing you need and are allowed to use to play is the official Asheron's Call game client. I have 3 100+ chars (and no 126+ :p) on Harvestgain, but I would leave them for this new server if I was sure that it won't be the same than all the others in a few months. And if you permit 3rd party, the new server WILL end like the others.

A part of your customers are asking for more roleplay, less xp greed. They want to enjoy the journey through AC without being spammed by bots. You may be surprise at how many players would join and stay on such a "pure" world.

Ogz

01-15-2004, 07:40 AM

I currently pay for and play eight seperate accounts. Effective feb.. that will be at most two.

why? Increased cost to play for no increase in any form in terms of what the game/turbine gives me. IMO you are simply recouping your costs for buying the franchise and your very own flop.

You are charging me more for the same amount of product, nay less.. makes no sense to me that i should pay more for the same ol thing. prices go down when things get old, not up.

I voted on the survey you ignored that i'd pay 12.95 for a graphically enhanced ac.. which this sure as heck aint!

-O

Ogz

01-15-2004, 07:45 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Korrigan

(can be abbreviated as: I hate all 3rd party apps, they are all the axis of evil (meant humorously not literal (aka please don't feel flamed, i just dont want to quote the whole thing korrigan and feel the need for humor), but really that whole post was all anti 3rd party) )

Lets see.. alienate the remaining playerbase that overwhelmingly voted in turbines own survey that 3rd party app's are fine with them.

I bet turbine does it too. who needs existing customers? Not turbine.

-O

morrigan

01-15-2004, 07:56 AM

posted by Ogz

I voted on the survey you ignored that i'd pay 12.95 for a graphically enhanced ac.. which this sure as heck aint!

Interesting comment, which I forgot was in the survey of how much would you pay..perhaps all they saw was the what would you pay :) and disregarded the upgrade thought or the "would pay for an expansion"

Perhaps by that survey, we created this monster which we now face.

Korrigan

01-15-2004, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by Ogz
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Korrigan

(can be abbreviated as: I hate all 3rd party apps, they are all the axis of evil (meant humorously not literal (aka please don't feel flamed, i just dont want to quote the whole thing korrigan and feel the need for humor), but really that whole post was all anti 3rd party) )

Lets see.. alienate the remaining playerbase that overwhelmingly voted in turbines own survey that 3rd party app's are fine with them.

I bet turbine does it too. who needs existing customers? Not turbine.

-O

No one will force you to play on the new server. A lot of people will play there though if they get rid of the 3rd party programs, or at least all unattended stuff (combat and all bots). There are still people out there who play multiplayer games to meet other people, not to try to talk to robots. Robots have 8 servers. I don't see how it harms them if one new server does not tolerate them ;)

Don't want to remove Decal ? Don't do it ! Nerfus, BS/2 and other utilities are not half as bad as automated gameplay. But at least forbid ANY kind of AFK activities (other than standing idle at the LS). Buff, portal or trade bots are really easy to spot and punish, much easier than combat macroers.

Honest John

01-15-2004, 08:49 AM

And your trying to force your desired play style on everyone else.

Tell me, in what way to 3rd party apps, other than those baned by the CoC, hurt you directly? Is anyone forcing you to use htem? If they are so bad, why do so may use them? Why dont you just find a like minded group and play with them? I happen to play a non magic character who only uses buffs when going on a group quest that requires them to survive at his level. 90% of the time I depend on items only. Yet, I see no problem with buff bots, etc. People power past low level content? So what? It just means less crowding for those who dont.

People use these apps because they fill a need. If you don't see the need, don't use them.

Korrigan

01-15-2004, 08:59 AM

Do you guys ever READ before answering ?

How is asking for ONE server without bots on a total of NINE server forcing a play style on everyone else ?

I would like that for once, this new server becomes something different. More a community where people talk and help each other being at the keyboard than a spreadsheet full of bots.

Again, NO one forces you to come on the new server, you have 8 other servers to play on.

Honest John

01-15-2004, 09:35 AM

I read very carefully. Why should I not be able to play on a new server just because I dont want to play your way? Other than red servers, why should anyone be forced to forgo their play style just to take advantage of starting over on a fresh server?

If the developers feel all 3rd party apps are bad, then they can try to ban them. Because its Turbines game, I would either play the way they mandate or go elseware. Yet, I have never seen a statement from them that all 3rd party apps are bad.

There is no reason why you cannot play your way without trying to mandate how others play. Feel free to encourge others to play without the apps. Give good reasons and you might even get some people to agree with you. There are many points about them I agree with you on. Yet, I don't see it as my right to try to force people to not use them. As long as they do not prevent me from playing the game my way, more power to them. If I feel there is something about the game that is lacking, boring, etc and a 3rd party app helps with that problem, I will use it. If not, I don't.

That is one of the great things about AC. Your not forced to play just one way. The game is flexable enough to allow people to do things the way they want. Use apps or not. Its your choice. Just dont tell me how to play as long as I obey the rules.

BlackCaptain

01-15-2004, 09:58 AM

Clearly Turbine is just using the wrong paradigm. The problem is the Playstation2 mentality. When all the off-the-shelf games can be beaten or "won" in a weekend it just takes to darn long to "win" AC.

Change the game so that everyones total XP floats over their head like the names on DAoC or the Star Wars game, and make it possible through non-stop playing that it would be practical to max a toon within 48 hours.

Then collect subscription fees on the new adventure of the month.

Simply turn AC into a FPS and be done with it.

The people that want to role play and play a D&D-based game will switch to D&D when it becomes available. (And of course give them an AC-disenfranchised discount) Everyone wins. The PS2 kids get to hit their feeder bar and the people that want to play "the right way" can play a game modeled on the D&D paradigm.

Korrigan

01-15-2004, 10:30 AM

I read very carefully. Why should I not be able to play on a new server just because I dont want to play your way? Other than red servers, why should anyone be forced to forgo their play style just to take advantage of starting over on a fresh server?

What is the advantage of playing on a fresh server if after a few months, it ends as a carbon copy of all the other servers ? Just a waste of time, rather stay on the server where you already have higher level chars.

If I follow your logic, PK servers should not exist. Or all server should be PK. Because if one server is different, someone is forcing a certain play style on that server. But in your own speech, you make PK servers an exception to your own rule.

Oh, and as a paying customer, I think I also have the right to make suggestions to Turbine ... not that they will apply everything that I say, so what are you afraid of ?

I don't care if you use plugins like NB2 or BS/2 (no matter what my opinion is on these plugins). Mejingarder is an awesome plugin until Turbine adds real allegiance chat. Not all the third party software is bad. But it's my right, and the right of many other players, to dislike automated gameplay and bots.

I dream of a marketplace without bot spam, where real people would eventually buff each other after being politely requested to do so, and where players would know how to fight without having 24/7 level VII buffs provided by bots. I also dream of populated towns where people trade instead of a big bunch of idiocy spamming trade bots in an artificial marketplace. It's my right to dream of those things, and my right to suggest them as a part of the new server.

And please, this time, read everything carefully ...

phitch

01-15-2004, 11:05 AM

Did you ever attempt to get buffs from "real" people before the advent of Bots? Holy whack, I remember when the boards at both IGN and CoD would be flooded with dozens of posts about how this person was rude for not buffing them or how people should learn to play without buffs or whatnot.

What you dream of is nice. It won't ever become a reality though. No matter how nice it is you are basically telling people that they either need magic (which is bad) or the should stay on an old server.

Think about it this way. Can you start a pure melee character and have a chance? With buffs yes, reliable buffs. Without reliable buffs? It would be extremely difficult. When the new server opens, I fully expect 50% of the population to be BM or OG. Simply because they are the easiest ways to level and have magic. I expect 45% will be hybrids, and I expect 5% will attempt to create a pure melee.

As far as leveling goes. I expect to see this.

A group of friends get together. They swear to one character with their main characters. Spec Leadership on the newbie and start to hunt. I'm not sure how much passup the new guy will end up getting but I assume it's gonna be similar to a fellowship leech.

So lets say it's a 25% passup to begin with (now that leadership can be unspec'd after the character is high enough, who cares about specing it early?). So now we have 12 characters sworn to one. They each make 1000exp. The character sworn to now gets 25% of each 1000exp. In other words for every 1000 exp each 12 vassals make the person then in turn makes: 3000exp.

Yep a non-played character with minimal passup just made 3times what everyone else did. Now lets say enough time passes and with leadership bonus+raising leadership skill they reach the cap of 94% passup. (I imagine with 13 dedicated players this would be simple.) So now how much exp do they make? If each player goes and earns 1000exp they recieve 940exp... by 12 that comes to a whopping 11280exp. At 10000exp that's 112800 and at a mere 100000k exp that's 1,128,000. Now how easy is it to get a higher level VoD fellow that earns 10,000,000 an hour? I would say fairly easy. 12 dedicated followers and 10,000,000exp for one hour of hunting converts to.... 112,800,000 uh huh... So less is more in the new schema.

Sounds sweet doesn't it? Now lets say they hit the cap early enough... level 70 is a total of 263,671,011 exp multiple by .94 =
~248,000,000x12, well lets see 2,976,000,000 or a level 116 character by level 70... at level 80?

80 = ~493,000,000x.94=463,000,000x12=5,556,000,000. So, don't worry get yourself some friends, climb to the top rung fast and rotate the leader. Because once you have the next level leader in place it will only take 10 more levels to make them 126 as well. Rotate and repeat.

Dedication can help you create uber characters.

The lesson in the xp change is this. If you really want to make a level 126 character spec leadership (and unspec it later) and have 12 friends to help you pass exp (or less depending on how many acocunts you have.)

Honest John

01-15-2004, 12:32 PM

Sigh, I do read carefully, as you should. The developers created a red server. I have no problem with that. They also allow PK on while servers. I have no problem with that. These are basic factors designed into the game. I choose to either accept those rules or not play. Its simple.

That has nothing to do with the topic of using or not using 3rd party apps. You are suggesting no apps on a new server. Yet, you your self use them to fill in a void. 3rd party haps have drasticly changed the game for most people. Some good and some bad impact.

You admit you use them. Many, if not most people use them to make the game better and not with the intent of hurting anyone else. Features have been added that mimic some of these apps. Just look at the item ID screen.

I guess my basic questions for you are, why do you think no 3rd party apps would improve the game for the population as a whole? If you think the game would be so much better off without them, why do you use them?

Or, are you just wishfull for some of the game dynamics that were around when before the apps showed up? Your not alone in that aspect. But trying to get rid of something there is no way to get rid of is not the answer. Suggestions on how to work with the currect state of the game, apps and all, would be much better effort.

Korrigan

01-15-2004, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Honest John
Suggestions on how to work with the currect state of the game, apps and all, would be much better effort.

Actually, I did this : Keep Decal, but forbid ALL kind of AFK activities (aka macros and bots). The justification of this is also in my previous posts, so I won't repeat myself again.
Anyway, I'm wasting my time arguing with someone who has decided not to listen.

Kesrick

01-15-2004, 01:07 PM

Horizons, which is the game that AC2 tried to be, is $12.95 per month, with reduced cost for pre purchasing. IT is worth the extra $3.00.
7 completely different races to choose from, (including dragon)
lots for building your own house, city, or fortress. guild members can build a house or guard tower next to the guild HQ)
traders/crafters that can advance without having to engage in combat (create your own weapon)
more flexible guild/allegiance procedures-rules
higher level graphics
Sorry, Turbine, even after last night's Dev Chat, you've not convinced me that a 30% price increase is justified, or warranted by anything other than greed.
Perhaps it's in your business plan to kill AC all-together. Seems you're on the right course.

sylphia

01-15-2004, 01:25 PM

While it is not my personal preference in playstyle, I can see the reason for a push on no-decal, or at least limited decal on the new server. I think Decal is one of the best things to ever happen to AC. Its also one of the worst things. Simply put, if you look at your log-in screen, you may note that our server populations are running around 600 ppl. This is a far cry from the hey-days when they used to commonly run 1500+ The population itself is cut more than in half. Now, out of those, at any given time you can expect about 100 or so to be automated bots in the MP. Perhaps 50 or so are macros for tradeskills or buffbots in towns and mansions (I would say more, but it would still be an estimate, so 50 will do for now). We all know that UCMs are rampant. So out of the 450 ppl left on the server, how many are UCMs?

The point here is that, even a couple years ago, you could log on and interact with 100's of players. Now you are lucky to find any at all. Towns are deserted, for a variety of reasons. Dungeons are deserted except for macroes and a couple of legitimate campers trying to survive against them. Only your clan is really a source of other players nowadays.

We have plenty of servers where this is the norm. The point to the new server is to give everyone a fresh start. I dislike the stigma they have associated with chains that prompts this change, but I look on the server itself as a chance to shove all the whiners out of the old ones. They are happy, those of us sick of being told how to play our game are happy, and everyone can go along their merry way, enjoying the game however they like, without interference from anyone else. If they want to load the server down with rules, let em. See how they like living in a utalitarian, dictator-style community. And if the server population blossoms and they love it, more power to them. All of the anti-chainer, anti-decal, anti-whatever population can move there and look for something new to fight about.

Dedicating ONE server to such a projecty is, in fact a good idea. It can serve as a sort of test fo how popular other specialty servers would be. Good luck enforcing all of the rules they want to pile onto it, but hey whatevr makes you happy. Oh and lets nt forget: XP pass-up needs to be disabled entirely on that server, or there will be level 126's all over the place inside of a month. Instead of in 2 months.

Tehanu

01-15-2004, 01:45 PM

I have some reservations with the new server news and I have no strong opinions on the subscription price change.

First the subscription change -- As far as I am concerned, I get a heck of a lot of entertainment for my $10 a month. I have two accounts. So $20 a month. That's two movies a month. So now I'll pay $26 a month. That's two movies and a thing of popcorn for one of the movies a month. Seeing as pretty much each time I log in to the game, I'm on for over 2 hours at a time on average, I equate this nearly directly to two movies a month. At the times that I play the game nearly every night of the week, this is about the cheapest entertainment per dollar spent that I would fathom taking part in. If the price goes up, it still will be. But I will probably eventually consider dropping my second account since it is simply a group of mules.

Now for the server news -- I like the idea of a new server, but I think the current plan does not go far enough. I would not leave my current server, where I've been for 4 years (and it's taken me 4 years to get to level 110...not a chainer or macroer) for the server as currently planned. Here's what I would like to see for a new server to be more enticing:

1) Do not allow the use of third party programs on the new server. Discuss with the Decal Devs how this could be implemented without the need for admins and "tattle-tale" reports. Instead of Decal plug ins, I'd like to see some of the features hard-wired into the game. Introduce a self-buffing program into AC. A program sort of like one of the build cues in Civ III or other strategy games, or like the fillcomps command in the game. Make it so no War spells are allowed in the buff program. This program would replace the need for Nerfus Buffus 2 or other buffing programs. I'd like to see monster attunement be more useful, maybe to the point of the plug in Target Info, which keeps track of the spells that have been cast on targets. Some form of Bandit Sight/6th Sense would be great to have hard programmed into the game. But I'm pretty sure I could live with just a NB2 replacement.

2) Reconsider implementation of housing on the new server. I really think that housing destroyed the social environment of AC. Towns were abandoned as guilds set up in isolated mansions far from town centers. I'd like to see housing in the game, but perhaps having only the apartment units would be appropriate. I like the villas (I own one), but with the villas being allegiance recallable, I think they too will help destroy the urban social scene in AC. If you had only apartments (and maybe cottages), I think the towns would still survive as social places as guilds would once again hold meetings in taverns or meeting halls in towns.

Unless I can be assured that the new server will not only not have xp chains but will also not have a single macroer, a single buff bot, a single trade bot, I see no reason for me to switch over to that server. I'd guess that half the population on my server at any given time are bots sitting in marketplace or at their mansions/villas or busy macroing away in dungeons. I liked the social atmosphere of AC back when there were no bots, few macroers, no xp chains. I'd switch to a new server if that was coming back again.

This talk of housing reminds me of a question: what ever happened to the Mansion love we were promised when villas were given the /house allegiance recall property? We are paying monthly fees through the nose in terms of writs and pyreals to maintain a guild mansion...for 3 more chests. since it seems to be a writ per chest (at least for villas), why is the cost of upkeep on mansions not reduced to 5 writs per month and half the cost in pyreals? without any added benefits to owning a mansion right now, the cost is ridiculous.

Honest John

01-15-2004, 02:01 PM

Al well and good, but...
How are you going to ban 3rd party apps that are not detectable? Decal and its apps do NOT send anything to the server that a player performing the same actions would not send. All they do is mimic the player. If the CS staff has trouble with UCM, how do you ever think they can monitor portal bots, trade bots, buff bots, tinker bots, etc? DO you REALLY want Turbine to spend the huge amount required on a customer servive staff that would be needed for this? I would rather have bugs fixed, new content, improved game so I don't need bots, and have the CoC inforced. And, it still would not be enough. All that would happen is the bots would be in the dungeons of the mansions so their members could access them.

The harsh reality is, people will continue to find ways to add functionality to the game. As Turbine as said from day one, the best way to rid the game of undesired activity is to program it out.

Don't want trade bots? OK, add some kind of in game/out of game posting service so buyers and sellers can trade goods. Don't like buff bots? Develop ways for non-magic users to compete without them. Or, let me start a character at what different levels. Maybe 1, 20, and 50. That way, I dont have to use bots to get to a level I need to to support myself. Just maybe, i don't WANT to see all that content I have been through many times before. Portal bots a pain? OK, let me choose from a list of tieable portals instead of having to go all the way to it to tie. 3rd party apps did not kill towns, allegiance recall did. And on, and on.

Program a better game. Don't try to remove things people clearly want.

Dr. McNasty

01-15-2004, 02:06 PM

I'm not that worried about the price increase. I figure it will help you guys do your jobs better and more efficiantly. Also, I estimate that I spend about 2 hrs a night on the game, that works out to be about $.22 an hour. I think I can swing that. AC is still some of the cheapest entertainment out there.

Snorungen

01-15-2004, 02:33 PM

Maybe the wrong place to post it, and I know people have talked about em before..but couldnt you do something about the towncriers?

My suggestion would be to make them the postmen of AC, enabling us players to leave messages for each other (while offline) like in the old-times textbased (telnet) muds. Maybe they could also be able to handle a packet delivery service? I understand all these things would take some time implement (like 1-2 hours with decal and a database)..but it would really make interaction with other players more interesting (which is the purpose of mmmorpgs? right (?)).

I also believe that, in a fantasy world, world-wide messages of fullfilled quests should be heralded..a task for heralds and town-criers! Maybe at noon each day? or if you ask em? Would be fun to hear what has happened during the last day....

/snorungen ... aka Davva

sylphia

01-15-2004, 02:38 PM

I am by no means a coding genius, but it seems to me that there has to be some sort of "leak" in the client that is allowing what SHOULD be 100% secure info to be read by the third party apps. This being said, in order to prevent use of 3rd patry, all you should have to do is plug that leak (we are long overdue for a more modern UI and client anyway). Then set up a server-side detection that checks to see if a client has been in ANY way altered, and block it from the server until it is restored--thus disabling clients that were hacked to allow 3rd party apps to plug into them again.

This would, of course, prevent dual-logging and personalized client "skins", etc. as well. But hey, if you are going to go for controlling how a person plays their game, why not go all the way?:rolleyes:

Zeehope

01-15-2004, 02:42 PM

I have been looking to buy ACDM all week. I can not seem to find it anywhere. Might there be a hold on the game for new players due to the changes?

Honest John

01-15-2004, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by Zeehope
I have been looking to buy ACDM all week. I can not seem to find it anywhere. Might there be a hold on the game for new players due to the changes?

Lots of posts on this. It's has not been on the market for some time but Turbine plans to get it out there in some form ASAP. No dates have been posted.

Infinite-SC

01-15-2004, 02:56 PM

As some people have already mentioned....

Most of us have multiple account ONLY because of storage.

The Realm for Christ's sake had more storage than AC does to date.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD GIVE US MORE STORAGE!!!

I could care less about the price hike. AC was about the only game left on the market charging less than $10/mo.

Regarding the new server the only reasoning I see behind this is for those who want a fresh start (beats a server wipe I suppose).

And for the record I've played AC since beta and left mostly because of the xp chains. I'm glad to see the change. Although I see it as too little too late. However, I returned to play AC for "filler" until a new MMORPG comes out. However, if this latest / greatest expansion proves to be worthy I MAY just stay.

sylphia

01-15-2004, 03:04 PM

You know what? get rid of housing altogether and institute the BANKS in EQ.

I will give up all the pretties in my housing to be able to access my stuff from any town, with any of my toons, and to ensure that EVERYONE has an equal opportunity to enjoy the benefits of secure muling. There will be no more issues over whether or not unpaid accounts should retain housing. The settlements that litter our landscape and produce nothing but lag will be gone (leave the portals though :D ).

With the institution of clan-wide chat this month, mansions will no longer be needed as a "common meeting place" to discuss or organize; you can do it anywher ein dereth now, on a private channel. And you can squelch normal chat if its interfering, so no excuses there either :)

Allow the monarch to choose ONE meeting hall as the "clan recall point". Then if you need to physically get together (such as to start a quest or clan-hunt), you can.

There ya go. Reduce lag. Remove housing envy. Provide secure storage for everyone. Make meeting halls more than just a building on the outskirts of town again. Since there are no mansions, towns will become populated again (esp since the bank interfaces are IN TOWN).

Yeah. Get rid of housing.

Iceness

01-15-2004, 03:57 PM

Ibn,
Do you anticipate the new allegiance exp change leveling characters to fast?

Barnacles

01-15-2004, 05:21 PM

Im wondering how many people out there complaining about the price increase pay 35 to 50 bucks a month for a broadband connection. If this applies to you, shame on your self for moaning about a lousy 3 bucks. If this doesnt apply and you think, like me, that Turbine is making more and better changes than MS ever did, HOORAH! Im with a lot a of people on the new server, PLEASE completely and utterly nerf macroing there. No bots, no UCM'ers, no XP chains solely based on making mega xp and such. Hext said it right i'd love to see all the stuff he posted happen on the new world. I missed the start of AC, and my Patron has told me countless stories about how spells would last only a few mins, and how you could only fight stuff your level, and stories about server events like the shadow wars. Im really looking forward to this new server. I see light at the end of this tunnel and no its not a Turbine freight train heading my way......

Tehanu

01-15-2004, 05:26 PM

People keep saying how Decal doesn't send any info to the server. I don't know how Decal is programmed, but I imagine it would not be difficult for the Decal Devs to talk to the Turbine Devs (after all, Zyrca works there now), and they could come up with a simple code system where upon launching the client, if you have Decal on, it will immediately send a ping to the server, or vice versa, the server will send a ping to Decal and get a response if it is on. You could then establish settings for a given server where the client will abort if it detects Decal. I'm sure that if this was negotiated with the Decal Devs, they could put something in the program. Perhaps people would hack Decal to delete that code, but perhaps there's a way to do it in a more secure way.

Furthermore, this is quoted from Honest John:

"Don't want trade bots? OK, add some kind of in game/out of game posting service so buyers and sellers can trade goods. Don't like buff bots? Develop ways for non-magic users to compete without them. Or, let me start a character at what different levels. Maybe 1, 20, and 50. That way, I dont have to use bots to get to a level I need to to support myself. Just maybe, i don't WANT to see all that content I have been through many times before. Portal bots a pain? OK, let me choose from a list of tieable portals instead of having to go all the way to it to tie. 3rd party apps did not kill towns, allegiance recall did. And on, and on."

Guess what...we already HAVE out of game posting services so buyers and sellers can trade goods. They're called the ign vault boards and other message boards out there. They worked extremely well for about 3 years of the game's history. They still work fine. As for the buff bots, I've been here since March 2000. Things were tough back then, but I can guarantee you that lots of people had few problems leveling as non-magic users. You find friends that are mages to help you out. Imagine that...actually playing a massively multiplayer online game like it's massively multiplayer instead of an online, advanced version of diablo 2. We also lasted a good 2 years without portal bots.

The point is that if you want to start over and have all that stuff, you can do that TODAY, on one of what...8 servers? It would be cool to have a server that was almost as different as the others as DT is.

MomentofClarity

01-15-2004, 05:49 PM

Subscription change: I understand this but are you going to use our money on other things besides new hardware? Are you going to use the money to actually fix the lag like most of the playerbase have been begging for in the last few years?

New World: I think is sucks. And to top it off you made another carebear server. 7 isnt enough? And what pissed me off even more was Jessica, who wasnt around when DT was made and had a good dev who thought it about it, saying "Well most of us play DT." <----------- LOL. You guys dont really kill any people I guess, just play chess most of the time like Ibn said in a previous post. And you guys made Solclaim, then Wintersebb now this new world Snowreap or whatever. So you are trying to make the people of DT wait and try to whore our money, hoping me get a new server "soon" but soon meaning 2 years from now? This is ridiculous and alot of people are going to quit over this moronic idea. Seems like Turbine cant get a foot forward without M$ holding their hand every step of the way.

Honest John

01-15-2004, 08:35 PM

What we don't have is a Turbine sponsered system for trading. Not everyone reads the same boards, if they read any at all, so those are extremly poor and nowhere as good as an in-game or single out of game location for trading.

No, there is no currect substitute for trade bots. As its suppose to be a player driven ecomony as much as possible, why remove one of the big aids to just that? Give us one and they will go away on there own. I sure don't want to go back to hanging around shops hoping someone will sell something. Or, have people spamming in towns and the subway like they used to. At least now, its mostly in one place. Again, program around problems and needs and the issues will go away on their own

Mageman

01-15-2004, 08:38 PM

A new world - Personally I play characters on one world, and a new world is something I wouldn't use. Although adding servers is needed, however, I think that Turbine could get more bang from those new servers by;[list=1] Adding an additional character(s) per account (at least 6 instead of 5) Adding more Landmass Adding more Cottages, Villas, and Mansions Adding more storage in houses (a quest for ONE hookable chest for Cottages, Villas, and Mansions usable by anyone who has access to the house like Chalkboards) Increase storage per character by unlocking the Foci to store a few (6-12) items in them.[/list=a]Paying an extra $3 per month - I realize that costs increase and that AC is probably due for a cost increase. However, without some tangible benifit for the people that play on only one server are going to feel that they're paying more and getting nothing out of it. I think that the price increase should be attached to the new expansion. By allowing people to buy a ACDM CD Key online and start a new account is a far better way for Turbine to increase it's income.

Jehm

01-15-2004, 08:55 PM

I guess I wouldn't ahve an issue with the pay increase generally speaking. However, I do feel the recent letter explaining the changes in allegence xp and new server (not the actual changes in game systems) was offencive. For that reason I am sure my days in AC are limited what ever the rate.

I will be looking to other games and looking to find game where I can play by the stated contract and not be refered to by the company that provides the service as a cheat, or gaining my thrills on the backs of something negative.

Players I think can play out their opinions with a lot more latitude however. I have never been overly dismayed by players with strong opinions... even if they where offencive but paying any amount of money to Turbine to be lable as have substandard judgment in the way I play AC... Tubine needs to consider this feedback.

Ailleurs

01-15-2004, 11:35 PM

I totally agree with Jehm. I feel labeled by Turbine because I use a resource that has been part of the game much longer than I have. I have only played AC for around 1-1/2 years. My first monarch was a big pusher of Super-chains. I didn't participate in it the way he wanted me to, because I hate powerleveling, but I learned how to use the resource of allegiance passup to form my own little chain with a couple of friends to level some trade mules. In almost 1 year of that chain, I still don't have a single chain character over level 70. In fact, out of all 15 of my characters, not a single one of them is over level 90! I don't use UCM's, I don't powerlevel, But, I'm still a cheater right?

The price increase I totally agree with, but your timing could not have been any worse. Label me, insult me, take the fun out of the game for me, and then demand more money?! I DON'T THINK SO!

I had hoped that my money was paying for things more useful to this game like better anti-UCM enforcement, more perks for low and mid-level solo players, and getting rid of that damned trade window boot-to-desktop bug. As it seems, Turbine prefers to take the hard-line route - performing an 'ethnic-cleansing' of sorts - trying to rid AC of the players that play and believe differently than themselves, even if it is well within the rules.

Jehm

01-15-2004, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by Ailleurs
I totally agree with Jehm. I feel labeled by Turbine because I use a resource that has been part of the game much longer than I have. I have only played AC for around 1-1/2 years. My first monarch was a big pusher of Super-chains. I didn't participate in it the way he wanted me to, because I hate powerleveling, but I learned how to use the resource of allegiance passup to form my own little chain with a couple of friends to level some trade mules. In almost 1 year of that chain, I still don't have a single chain character over level 70. In fact, out of all 15 of my characters, not a single one of them is over level 90! I don't use UCM's, I don't powerlevel, But, I'm still a cheater right?

The price increase I totally agree with, but your timing could not have been any worse. Label me, insult me, take the fun out of the game for me, and then demand more money?! I DON'T THINK SO!

I had hoped that my money was paying for things more useful to this game like better anti-UCM enforcement, more perks for low and mid-level solo players, and getting rid of that damned trade window boot-to-desktop bug. As it seems, Turbine prefers to take the hard-line route - performing an 'ethnic-cleansing' of sorts - trying to rid AC of the players that play and believe differently than themselves, even if it is well within the rules.

Here here!

kgober

01-16-2004, 01:20 AM

an increase from 5 characters per account to 7 characters per account is something that would actually be worth paying $3 extra every month for.

it would mean I could try playing mace or TW, to see how the rebalancing worked out. or I could try out xbow to see how it compares to bow.

it would mean I'd have more mule space, to store all the new things we've gotten over the past year and a half (salvage, olthoi and covenant armor, rending weapons, quest items, guises, etc.)

best of all, your operating costs would go up very little as a result -- I'm still limited to playing only one of them at a time, so server load and bandwidth usage will stay about the same. all you would need is 30% more space on the character database server, and a few minor code changes.

-ken

Rhodoman

01-16-2004, 08:17 AM

$3/month increase that brings it in-line with the cheapest of the other games on the market = no big deal.

It's still the best game I've seen like it, so it's well worth my gaming $s

Rho

johnny_lie

01-16-2004, 10:53 AM

I really enjoy playing AC and dual box, login with more then one account at the same time, quite often. With the new price increases I simply will be unable to afford 2 accounts and must revert to 1; however, my 2 main characters are on seperate accounts.

Is it possible for me to transfers a couple of characters from one account to the other before closing the account? I don't want to loose over a year of hard work :( The loss would be devistating and would only encourage me to look elsewhere for entertainment.

lazy-dt

01-16-2004, 01:36 PM

http://forums.ac.turbinegames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=976

Ibn

01-16-2004, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by HolloTip
Will this be a pvp server?

No, it will be a standard rules server.

Ibn

01-16-2004, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by Phayt
Man I hope for the addition of 30% to their revenue they will be putting in a new department at their company. Maybe a customer support department perhaps?

Customer service, technical support, QA, Operations... yes.

Ibn

01-16-2004, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by MomentofClarity
"Well most of us play DT." <----------- LOL. You guys dont really kill any people I guess, just play chess most of the time like Ibn said in a previous post.

Excuse me, when did I say that?

Flynn

01-16-2004, 04:06 PM

I wouldn't worry about it.. 'MomentOfClarity' has to be one of the most inappropriately named users on these boards.

Seriously though, if anybody's gonna quote anyone from Turbine, PLEASE post the link; nothing spreads rumors faster than misquoting Turbine/MS staff.

Triane

01-16-2004, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Phayt:
Man I hope for the addition of 30% to their revenue they will be putting in a new department at their company. Maybe a customer support department perhaps?
Originally Posted by Ibn:
Customer service, technical support, QA, Operations... yes.

Heh -- that makes ME wonder where you're going to spend the extra $5 per account per month that you don't have to give to MS anymore... (or more apropriately, that they'll no-longer be deducting from the money they used to pay you every month).

FYI Phayt: $13 per month from $5 per month is TWO HUNDRED AND SIXTY percent of what Turbine's half of the monthly revenues from AC used to be. That's a 160% increase to their coffers. (your rate is going up by 30%, but Turbine's getting A LOT more than that, they're just trying to quietly slip the other part past you).

This whole thing represents an (approximately) EIGHT DOLLAR per person per month raise for Turbine. Don't let them snow you further (as they appear to be trying to do) by attempting to claim that this $3 is to support the QA, CSR and other functions that MICROSOFT used to provide out of their half of the monthly revenue. Those services were provided at a profit by M$ for all these years, if Turbine can't duplicate that profitability, then they should've left that part alone, not just expect US to pick up their slack...

Watch that Ibn's hands, he's a magician and he's trying to pick your pockets while he's got you looking the other way...

-Triane

Ibn

01-16-2004, 05:48 PM

Triane, where are you getting these numbers?

I would be remiss if I didn't also point out that Microsoft had an economy of scale. These were all things that MS was already doing for other products, and was able to benefit by having necessary infrastructure in place.

We, however, are building this from the ground up. In doing so, we hope to ensure a very high level of service.

Triane

01-16-2004, 06:33 PM

Former Per Month Rate: ~$10

This was split between M$ and Turbine, and for lack of better information, I arbitrarily made it a 50/50 split. I figured that this was skewed in your favour, given that Microsoft are dick's when they make corporate agreements, it's ALWAYS in their favour, not to mention that they were actually doing the bulk of the resource-intensive stuff (Advertising (joke!), Customer Service, all the billing & collections, webhosting, etc etc). Nevertheless, an even distribution is an easy point to pick and it helps make the point easier to understand. Anyway, being generous and giving you 50% means that of our ~$10, Turbine would get $5.

Now that Turbine's taking over everything, YES you're going to have build the departments that MS used to support, but you're ALSO going to get the MONEY they used to get (the $5 I used for argument's sake here).

Thus, with NO rate change, Turbine's monthly income goes from some amount (much) less than $10 all the way up to $10. That not being enough of a raise, however, you're ALSO picking OUR pockets for another $3 per month, making $8 (for the sake of my point). It is almost CERTAINLY MORE than that, but it's this suffices to demonstrate my point nonetheless.

Note:
I have never claimed you didn't accrue new costs with this takeover, but I've simply layed that against the fact that you SHOULD be recouping that expense from the increased monthly fees you'd be getting from what USED to be M$'s share. That is, until you insinuated that you weren't. All I've ever said is we're not getting ANYTHING in exchange for $3 more per month which is $180 per year MORE MONEY you're trying to take from me just to play the same game that's there now). IMO you'd be hard pressed to demonstrate differently, certainly it would be VERY hard to demonstrate that I'm getting the same level of offering from AC1 as I would from the 3rd gen MMP's that cost the same as you're proposing to charge for this 1st gen one...

-Triane

PS: We, however, are building this from the ground up. In doing so, we hope to ensure a very high level of service.That SOUNDS great (I'll avoid for the moment the history of broken promises), but you're attempting to charge me more for these things NOW, you want me to pay up front for something that you're only promising (nebulously) for the future. Would YOU pay up front for something that you've been given no concrete details about? (not even a delivery date!) If so, one word of advice: Never buy any bridges.

Zeehope

01-16-2004, 06:54 PM

I played AC in its beta form then played from the day it went live. Due to a major move in my life I had to leave AC. I am now able to resume playing but the AC Subscription coupon can not be used again, and there does not seem to be a way to reactivate my old account, so I want to buy and play ACDM but can not find it anywhere. Any Ideas how I can find it?

sylphia

01-16-2004, 07:07 PM

Zeehope, you shouldnt need the coupn, if you already activated your account with it originally. You should be able to use your original Zone log in (though you may need to associate it with a Passport account if you left prior to that being implemented) Once logged in, just go to the billing info (or go to billing initially and it will prompt you to log in anyway) and plug in your cedit card info and purchse a subscription for amonth. You should be able to play AC just fine, though you wont have access to AC: DM features.

I know for a fact you can install it on your system and run it wthout a CD code, because I had to do it when I bought my new comp; I used the same old CD and never entered the code once. I know for a fact you can reactivate an old account once its been canceled, because we have done so several times, on 4 different accounts. The only thing you may find is that your toons have been wiped, depeneding on how long ago you stoped playing (we have had a character purge of old accounts).

Ankh MT

01-16-2004, 07:57 PM

I had 2 accounts for nearly 3 years. I wiped my payment information from my 2nd account today because of the pricing change.

Two of my friends that played AC in the past were planning on returning this month, but they changed their minds after the price increase because they can "play newer games for the same price".

Ivanhoe

01-16-2004, 08:16 PM

I like this Triane guy.

Really i do.

I see no justifiable reason to increase the monthly fee to 13.00 other then the already known reason of More money for turbines pockets.

I have played since beta Canceled my accounts for a few months during Horrible PVP decisions and inactions that turbine made and didnt make. And Was already going to cancel my accounts this month due to their "vision" of pvp.

This PriceJack is the final push out the door i needed.

Ailleurs

01-16-2004, 08:51 PM

I have 3 accounts, and shortly, I'll be cancelling my newest one. The price increase is only a small % of the reason. I run a buffbot for my allegiance, and this 3rd account was planned to eventually take over that duty so that I may free up my more established hunters on my other accounts, and to provide a few trade mules for my packrat habit. With the nerfing of the allegiance XP, I will no longer be able to do that as I will be FORCED to continually re-roll one of my established hunters to power-level each of these new characters individually to achieve my goals. I HATE power-leveling. I find it boring and tedious, plus the fact that by doing so, you miss out on so much of the content within the game. Some people like it, but it's not my cup of tea.

My other 2 accounts are chained together with a couple of friends so that we may level each others trade mules AT OUR PACE. 1 year's worth of work AT OUR PACE has achieved a few level 60+(but less than 70) trade mules, with a host of level 70-90+ hunters providing the passup. With the allegiance passup changes, we will be FORCED to re-roll our hunters to level our trade mules individually, as the hunters are higher in level than the mules -OR- we will be forced to unload our INTENTIONALLY COMBAT-GIMPED mules, train a combat skill and make an attempt to generate xp with a level 60+ mule that has the fighting and melee skills of a n00b to level 10. Not only is it embarassing to hunt mud golems in Holt with level 60 mules, but also a complete waste of what little time I have during the day to play this game.

IF Turbine follows through with the allegiance nerf threat, this game will become no more than another job for me, hence, no longer any fun. I play this game to have fun, and if Turbine is Hell-bent on taking the fun out of it for me, there is no point for me to continue playing it anymore. Then, I will be cancelling my other 2 accounts.

1 player lost = 3 accounts lost. My 3 accounts may not make a whole lot of difference to you, Turbine, but just consider this: how many more people like myself are you pissing off with this ignorant idea? How many people have already quit because of it? I emplore you to re-calculate your potential losses and rethink these changes through before setting them in stone.

*EDIT* I apologize as this post would more likely be suited in the "Comment on the Allegiance Passup changes" thread. But my feelings about the price increase and allegiance passup are linked due to the convenient timing of the 2 issues. It just seems to me that the two were linked as an effort to purge the "unfair" chainers from the game so that the Purists can have their perfect little AC2 clone.

Ailleurs

01-16-2004, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by Ibn
Customer service, technical support, QA, Operations... yes.

Customer service: you'll no doubt have a lot less customers to serve if you follow through with your posted changes.

Technical Support: definitely a necessity. How about hiring someone that can firgure out more important things to this game than nerfing allegiance passup and adding a "Scarlet Letter" to the AC loyal? For starters, how about figuring out how to stop the trade window bug that boots people to desktop...a problem that has plagued this game for years!

QA: = quality assurance. Maybe you should've hired a QA department to look over the posted changes and content of the posted press release BEFORE posting it? Maybe it would have saved you from insulting and infuriating a significant percentage of your customer base.

Operations: stay on your current path for too long and there won't be anything left to operate.

Why not hire a finance advisory team? People that can help keep you from making decisions that decrease your customer base, especially at times like this when there is NOT a new customer base coming in.

HeXt

01-16-2004, 09:20 PM

I don't mind paying extra for my 1 account. The only problem I do have is that I had 2 accounts, one I'm going to have to unsubscribe on but that's ok. I'll resubscribe it when I hit the lottery some day. hehe

As far as the new world goes, again, Keep the rules strict and pull out all the stops on cheats and we will have an awesome time. :)

johnny_lie

01-16-2004, 11:42 PM

Well I'm tickled pink to hear that I'm not the only one with more then one account :D

A 30% increase on one account for a game that occupies a large amount of time is almost exceptable. But when you add the factor of 2 or more accounts the cost just seems a bit off the mark for the content and level of gameplay we're all currently receiving.

I've grown to love AC, so if turbine must raise its monthly charge to keep it alive; so be-it, however the additional cost will simply push me to cancle at least one of my accounts if not all. I don't understand how going from a subscription base of multiple accounts per player to one where accounts are lost is going to help keep AC alive. I would think $20 is better then $13.

A suggestion -- Perhaps a multi-account discount could be incorporated into the new cost schema?

Ivanhoe

01-17-2004, 06:29 AM

Dont worry its not like they HAVE to raise the cost to keep ac alive.

They CAN . And thats about as simple as it really is.
They CAN raise it and they know they will lose some accounts
They dont care as long as they keep Most of there current base of subscribers And are hoping that their new expansion (prolly coming out in 6 months time) Will get new players to there over priced game.

So lets say 1000 out of 10000 people quit AC due to this pricehike.

Instead of making 10.00 x 10,000 subsribers = 100,000dollars a month
They will be making 13.00 x 9,000 = 117,000 dollars a month

Actually making MORE money per month with LESS of a player base.

News of a expansion will surely keep people Active longer so raising the price even before they get to work on the expansion seems like a great Money making idea on there end.

We the subscribers are getting screwed though.

Ultima online raised their price from 9.99 to 12.99 6-8months ago
But you could at least sign up for 6months at 9.99 a month
3 months at 11.99
or monthly for 12.99 a month

This encourages the longtime player to pay in 6 month spans and they get 6months of monthly moneys ALL up front . Its a win win for them .

Will Turbine give us the same subscription plans?
I doubt it or they would of mentiond it when they mentiond the pricehike.

Jehm

01-17-2004, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by Ivanhoe

So lets say 1000 out of 10000 people quit AC due to this pricehike.

Instead of making 10.00 x 10,000 subsribers = 100,000dollars a month
They will be making 13.00 x 9,000 = 117,000 dollars a month

Interesting that the letter explaining the sweeping cultural change in the game (The chainers are cheaters patch) is timed to relatively coincide with the price change. Interesting.

Triane

01-17-2004, 12:17 PM

IvanHoe said:
So lets say 1000 out of 10000 people quit AC due to this pricehike.
In my experience, the people who remain in AC at present are the hardcore AC1 fans. As such diehard fans, a significant percentage of us have multiple (and sometimes numerous) accounts. For example, in our allegiance, the number of accounts represented far outweighs the number of people BEHIND those accounts. Our monarch has (had) up to 5 accounts at one time. I myself have 3, and the number of people with two would be significant (as a percentage of the overall player population). ALL of these people are hit hard by this unjustified increase. In the case of the Monarch, he had originally decided that was it, ALL his accounts were going to be closed, he's since been mollified and will "only" close 4 of them. That $40 per month is going to take over 13 other people just to even out! I'm closing two of my accounts, there's another 7 people. The point is: it doesn't take very many multi-account holders doing anything more than closing their extra accounts for Turbine to lose a LOT of money. Even if not many PEOPLE leave, I'd be willing to bet that the sheer number of account closures will leave Turbine at, or very near what they're making now anyway. I suppose thay they'll at least have the added "benefit" of having severely alienated people who were their most ardent fans... :confused:

There's just no sane reason for spending our goodwill so frivolously.... :mad:

If 1000 people leave, easily twice that number of accounts also disappear. Even with the number of people who will leave because of this insanity, the real crush is going to be felt in the number of multiple account holders who close all, or most of their extra accounts. Personally, I don't think Turbine truly appreciates just how much revenue that ACTUALLY represents!

-Triane

Triane

01-17-2004, 05:57 PM

Heh -- after rereading what I wrote earlier, I sat down and started putting some numbers together regarding "1000" people leaving:

With a $3 increase:

For every single account holder that leaves, or dual account holder that closes one account, Turbine needs 3.33 OTHER accounts to stay open, JUST to break even. (3.33:1)

For every triple account holder that closes all but one account, Turbine needs 6.67 OTHER accounts to break even. (6.67:1)

For every quadruple account holder that closes all but one account, Turbine needs TEN other accounts to break even (10:1)

For every quintuple account holder that closes all but one account, Turbine needs 13.3 other accounts JUST TO BREAK EVEN!

So, if we say that:
- 75% of the (hardcore-AC1-fan) users have single accounts
- 15% have double accounts
- 5% have triple accounts
- 3% have quadruple accounts
and
- 1% have quintuple accounts

and we also determine that as many as 10% LEAVE the game entirely, while in the remainder of the population, the people hit the hardest react by half of them closing their extra accounts, then the breakdown is as follows:

For 10,000 users, distributed as described as above, there would be 7500+3000+1500+1200+500 accounts (13,700). This gives us a reasonable multiplier of 1.37 for extrapolating account numbers from player populations.

At $10 per account: $137,000 per month.

So now we bump the rate by $3 and deduct according to the prescribed rates, assuming 10% of people leave the game entirely, 50% of remainder don't change anything at all and the rest close all but one account:

For 1000 leaving users, we get approximately (1000*1.37=1,370) lost accounts that's $13,700 that needs to be made up, consuming the $3 raise of about 4567 accounts!. Anyway, back to the math:

So we have 9000 users remaining and according to our formula, we should have about 12,330 accounts. At $13 ea per month that's $160,290 per month! ("hurray" shouts Turbine)

Except, the 50% of remaining multiple account holders, being hit HARD by this increase, but wanting to stick around to keep the rent paid on all their houses, drop all their extra accounts. ("booo" cries Turbine) This leaves us with (4500*1.37=6,165) accounts unchanged, and 4,500 single-account holders or 10,665 accounts. Billed at $13 ea this results in Turbine getting $138,645 per month. With the approximations used here, that's a statistical-equivalent to the $137,000 per month that they started with. Oh, except this way they ALSO got to alienate about 5,500 fans.

Sooo, according to this simple model, they made statistically nothing AND got 5,500 angry people who won't tell their friends good stories about Turbine anymore.

*sigh*

-Triane