Comment on Allegiance Experience changes here.

[Ibn]

Use this thread to comment on the coming Allegiance Experience changes (http://ac.turbinegames.com/index.php?page_id=157) .

[Geomancer]

I understand why you're doing this, but it still feels like you're (Turbine) slitting our (the current players) throats in order to attract new or former players.

I'm sure most people posting here will be the overly-emoting, 'kill all the macroers and burn their corpses' types, but you've just alienated 99% of Darktide, where people matter, level matters, power matters, etc.

Specifically, you just handed Darktide to the worst group of people imaginable - Blood. There will be no way for us to catch them in terms of level now.

Your excuse? "Go to the new world and start fresh!" But it won't be a PK world, will it? No. That's ok though, Darktide's in the minority anyway, so like I said this change will benefit you in the long run. We wouldn't want to have to level all over again anyway.

[RolandG]

I like :D

[Tahlisa]

Sounds good to me :) .

[smaweet]

sounds good

I'm not too sure about the whole DoB on appraisal thing, but whatever. You need to relook at Deception IMO :p

[Nauscicaa]

THANK YOU
:)

[Delupin]

This is either incredibly brave or incredibly stupid on Turbine's part.

Truly though, it does show just how much Microsoft was shackling Turbine's hands in dealing with their OWN game.

[introp]

Thank you, Turbine! :)

[teqbean]

What about characters who are already maxed out and have no skill credits to be able to train or spec loyalty or leadership?

[StabA]

Long Live Blood!

I see this change as being a major change for the game. No longer will the game be so chain driven, and now the allegances will be more patron-vassel modivated. I notice they are adding alot of stuff from ac2 to ac1, which I like. All the monsters, the allegance chat, now the passup.

[Jinnsman]

Awsome! Although I must confess to be one who has taken advantage of xp chains, I am excited about this new system. I think it will have a significant and possibley negative initial impact as most allegiances will be impacted. In the long term, however, I suspect we will get a little more "old school" AC back. That would be a wonderful thing!

My only dissapointment is that there will now be virtually no way to level my own trade mules. Until now, I have chained my accounts together so that i could play with my main and push xp through my patron - another of my accounts - to my trade mule on my account. It appears that this will no longer be possible.

I would love to see some way for tinkers, alchemists, cooks, and fletchers to advance and gain siginificant xp in ways other than fighting.

Hopefully such thoughs are also on the dev's mind.

Cheers!

[Gafoon]

In general, I think that getting rid of chains is a good thing, however you've just killed the ability of our trade mule to gain XP.

Our trade mule is currently level 70, but the characters sworn to him are sworn in a linear fashion to maximize the old system.

Unfortunately they have all outleveled him, so the only character that will continue to provide value to our trade mule is the single character directly sworn to him. With the new system I'd like to swear both of the actively played characters to the trade mule so that he can continue to receive XP, but this is not possible (since he's been outleveled).

If you were to also relax the level based swearing requirements (so that a level 85 could swear to a level 70) this would be ok, but as things currently stand, we're totally messed.

[Niwa Banli-Zan]

its a pitty that using a middle man between your mule and your play toons on same account wont work either, but hey i can live w/ that :)

well done guys :)

[Delupin]

Teqbean, what use would a maxed out character have for leadership anyway? It's not as if he could spend the xp, lol.

[Shaz]

*golf clap*

Bravo!!

I applaud Turbine on doing this.

No, they're not stupid. They're SMART. They're listening to what the players wants.

Shaz

[Chazcon]

Great idea. It's good to see that Turbine is committed to a long-term goal for Asheron's Call and isn't just throwing band-aids around.

[underpaidmexica]

Seriously i think you probably just lost a good portion of your subscriber base.

You are already notorious for taking things out that people have been using for years and most of the people i know that dont play AC dont play not because of UCM or chains they dont play due to poor management decisions and being nerfed constantly the game takes too much time to play for 9 months and get screwed because you decided you didnt like something.

Between this and the price increase you might as well get your chapter 11 papers ready.

By the way im not even in a chain never have been but 90% of the game is now you have lvl 200 characters and the people stuck in the 70's are screwed but hey this was a great decision............

[tzantali]

there was a reason why AC WAS the best game out there.

[Magik Brute of]

Then you should make these 2 skills FREE and unable to Spec.

[Angelina_Jolie]

Yay! *claps* Way to go Turbine. way to buy the game back and kill it off right away! :|


*shakes head*

[AStrange1]

Monarchs of “traditional” allegiances, particularly those in old allegiances in which their direct vassals are no longer active, may see their received pass-up greatly decrease. If they are concerned with pass-up XP, they may seek to reorganize their monarchies.


Ibn, as a Monarch in said position, I have had my direct vassals for many years. Most have gone on to re-roll other toons that they play further down in the clan.

You are saying that I have to dump (re-arrange) my inactive followers to get active ones again? Not going to happen. I have never told anyone where to go underneath me and I never will.

Being 126 with no skill credits available and liking my current template as is without leadership means I will have to dump something, which I don't/can't/won't do.

Yes, you are nerfing xp chains which is good, but you are killing traditional long term monarchies.

[Hubbell]

Thanks for the heads up ibn, i was gonna be lazy about macroing my 10 guy minichain to 126, but now i'm gonna spend the next 2 and a half months pushing all 10-15 guys to 126+, btw, its an Idle chain so i'll have 2-3 accounts of 126-140 characters. I love you ibn!

[Eu insumi]

Ibn, there's a HUGE problem with this: you're practically REWARDING the hardcore macro/chain whores. NO ONE will ever be able to max out a character, or even to get near 30-40 billions total xp without a chain.

This can only work if you RESET all 126+ characters at lvl 126. Otherwise, PK will remain unbalanced, new players will KNOW FOR SURE, they can't compete ever against the maxed toons and generally speaking, cheaters will win. I know you're opening at least one new server, but not everyone is willing to move. Please also consider a 126+ reset in adition to the chain nerf.



Also, macroing (both the so-called ACM and UCM) must be nuked at the same time with the chain nerf. Big anti-macro monarchies who had xp chains could still compete against the macro/chain monarchies, with the chain nerf, if macroing remains an option, you'll just push people towards the macro monarchies.

[SegZavier]

This change is something I find disappointing. Not because of the big massive exploiting exp chains.

But because a friend, my wife and I have chained up several of our trade mules and had sworn characters below them to level those trade mules. Now something we did 2 years ago just got toasted.

I am going to have to talk some with the wife and our friend and see if we can salvage anything from this.

[deryk]

yay go turbine you made the minorty of the player base happy. This shouldnt be implemented on all the servers. The dmg is allready done on the old servers all this does is gaurantee that the low lvl toons will never be close to as high as the high lvl players.
And how does this help things on the new server at all its just a little ditch in the road they will still ucm there they will be lvl 126 in 3-6 months by plvling and ucming.
I dont play this game to quest all the time i rarely go on quests all you have done here is shoot the ppl that like to xp hunt in the foot and make the players who only quest allowed to keep up with the ppl that enjoy hunting.

[Rhodoman]

Better late than never.

This change is the right move for the right reasons. I hope it's not too late.

Rho

[Stupner_TD]

Your leaving the game terribly imbalanced by removing this.... The Xp Chains, and the maxed toons because of them, will be ruling the server now that all new chains will be nerfed..

[HardSide]

Bah (no), you shouldve done this for the new server like everybody wanted and left the old servers alone, like EVERYbody wanted, now you screwed people that liked xpchains and made those that didnt like it, like the changes.

[Alex_MT]

Too bad this comes so late!! Made myself up to a highlvl char without beeing chained and i think this changing in mind comes absolutely too late, even if i like to say better now then never.

Greetings Alex_MT

[Delupin]

Ibn,

Many level 126 players, including monarchs from non-chain allegiances, are expressing concern over the question of whether or not Leadership will still have a credit cost with the changes scheduled for February.

Many people do not want to have to reorganize their template to accommodate Leadership -- and they're probably quite justified in this thinking.

So, the question is, will Leadership have a skill credit cost come February? And if so, will a future expansion pack include either the removal of the level cap or the ability to acquire further skill credits beyond 126?

[frogto]

IS this change really going to go live on darktide.

Darktide has a notoriously low turn over on charachters. There are still charachters that were created 4 years ago. These charachters stay in allegiences becuase darktide is a "competitive server".

All this change means is that no new players will be able to compete on darktide. Is this what you want. Your nicely crafted essay(no sarcasm) does not refelect at all the situation on darktide. Can you please address how you are going to make playing on darktide viable for those of us who are still at 70. How will we ever compete with the multitiude of charachters who have already exploited the system? A system we won't have?

You are handing darktide to power allegiances who have already exploited this. My small allegience has a very relaxed chain. We will get to 126+ someday but no time soon. With this change most of us simply do not have the time to get to 126.

[War-Wizard-HG]

You just lost 4 accounts

[Cypher300]

I think this is definetly a step in the right direction!

I think it will require much more interaction in the "shallow" parts of a monarchy (namely, patron to vassal) and promote the social interaction that was great when I was a wee level 10.

ALthough, it seems as thought a lot of people are worried about having to rearrange their vassals. I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I only count on the XP i get while *I* hunt and while *I* quest. Any passup from my vassals is just a nice bonus. I don't have those vassals as XP producers, I have them as friends that I like to help in the game and to quest with.

Bravo Turbine....

Alska

[HardSide]

lol actually all we need to do is make a 9 peeps fellow, 3 mules all sworn to each other, and then pushers and you actually make more xp, lol and turbine thinks they solved an exploit.

[Ibn]

Regarding leveling up a trades character... while yes, it is no longer effective to do this via a chain, it is MUCH more effective to do this via direct active vassals.

Please note, as is stated, that the direct vassal->patron pass-up is actually increasing.

[Astral_Dominae]

Ibn, how will this effect patrons with no leadership trained?

[Caspian]

gah

please just do this on the new server so that people that reroll or start playing now won't have to deal with all of the chained/maxed characters ingame already.

i like the idea of what you are doing, BUT NOT THIS LATE IN THE GAME! if you had done this in beta or the beginning of retail it would have been fine.

but if you do this now you will be screwing over anyone that wishes to reroll or start playing again on any of the old servers.

doign this on the new server would be fine. people that want a fresh start should have no problem with this as they will all be on the same level. the same can't be said for the existing servers.

i beg you to consider this

[teqbean]

Ibn, Can you please reply as to Skill Credit Cost and if I have only 1 Account will there be a way to chain my characters directly?

[Eu insumi]

Ibn, can you please comment on the issues I pointed out? Especially on how are you going to deal with the 126+ characters on the current servers?

edit: as Caspian said, it's OK and even a great thing on the new server, bot on the old servers, you're just rewarding the cheaters.

[Korrigan]

FANTASTIC !

Now modify the CoC of the new server so that ANY third party utility, including ACM, UCM, bots and all this **** is FORBIDDEN and we will really get old school AC1 back :)

A slightly roleplay naming policy would be the icing on the cake ;) (hint hint ! no more "IOwnJoo" or "ImaLeetDood" names would not hurt ...)

[Pdog]

well I can say that I will probably take my 2 accounts and leave this game for good. Your just getting plain stupid. My highest char is 90 only chain i have is for my own accounts yet u still want to mess with me and charge me more. Well have been playing for 3 or 4 years and i guess u dont' want me around anymore.


Quick question is this your idea of content?

[Hubbell]

Level 90+ a mage can compete against ANYONE in PK. Level 110+ Archers can as well. Level 125+ melees also can. This will not HURT anyone.

[Nexus-HG]

While I can see the need for this change to this game, the change should have been made about 1 1/2 years earlier.

The "desire" to be 126 is quite understandable, especially to those who only see PvP as the only viable reason to play this game anymore, since most of those people that have been playing from "the beginning" are 126.

The chain system, while sometimes seriously abused by "macro monarchies" was used by most people to set up mini chains to level thier own toons in smaller monarchies, so they could stay away from the larger guilds.

I do not quite yet see how Turbine hopes to fix the problem in the manner they have set out to do it.

Those monarchs of the "macro monarchies" as they have been referred to WILL NOT really be harmed by this.

- They are already 126 (200+ if you believe in Treestats)
- They already are 126 on all the other toons they have
- The XP chain effect has already helped them reach their goals

Macroers WILL NOT be harmed by this.

- They will continue to macro for the XP
- They macro to KEEP UP with the "passup" req. of their chain
- No Chain bonuses will now force MORE players to macro

---

Regarding the ID feature you wish to implement...

I would have that that something would have been learned by the mistake of a "Hall of Shame".

No one will care how long someone has been playing to reach 126. Players only care that they reach that point; that they max out the skills to be "uber".

---

Monarchs of "traditional" guilds may, however suffer from this. The "ole' guild chain" was only of the main reasons to stay away from the greedy mega-chains.

While I feel that the mansion I own, up to this point, has been one gaint nerf (high maintance what is now a "really really big villa), I do look forward to some new features, whatever they may be. Most MMORPGs have had guild channels for some time as part of the game (while we have had to rely on Decal 3rd party apps).

I must admit that I hope that the end result of these changes will justify the means you are going about this.

While it is good to make players "work harder" for their xp without assistance of chains, it seems that there will be a giant level gap that is going to result between the casual gamer and the hardcore gamer.

It seems that, on the surface, that the chain system will join the Glacial Golems of Qualabar, PPGSA and the Plat Macro as things that people should have taken advantage of while it was available.

[SegZavier]

Originally posted by Ibn
Regarding leveling up a trades character... while yes, it is no longer effective to do this via a chain, it is MUCH more effective to do this via direct active vassals.

Please note, as is stated, that the direct vassal->patron pass-up is actually increasing.

That is an argument for why it may not be the exp chain fix people want.......

But it is a slap in the face for people who have a line of inactive characters that they were using their own characters to push.

[kryptik]

I thought PKL was the worst thing AC would ever see, guess I was mistaken. Becuase of this, you will most likely loose a great portion of your playerbase.

Here is how see the majority of AC's playerbase today. Most people today are trying to grasp onto an AC that died two years ago. The truth be told, that time is long gone.

[Sweet Mary]

Whohooo!

[Eu insumi]

hubbell, I bet that either you have no clue about PK or you have a maxed account. If a lvl 240 magic d spec mage throws 2 debuffs on a lvl 90 mage, the lowbie is totally nerfed. That's creature and war inept.

[sylphia]

OK here we go.

By changing the allegiance system, all you are doing is the same thing you have done countelss times: change or remove something to "create balance", while leaving the original in the hands of all who already had it. Perfect examples: PP GSA and Mattie Robes. You removed the ability to get these items from the playerbase, because you felt at the time that those with these items had unfair advantages over those who didnt, even though anyone who wanted one could go out and get them themselves, with enough time and patience. The problem was, you left the ones already in the game, IN THE GAME. Which meant that the "older" players still had them, and could charge whatever they wanted if they chose to sell them. Meanwhile, the ones who didnt have them couldnt GET them anymore, leaving the first set of players (the Haves) with a distinct advantage of the second set of players (the Have-Nots) that couldnt be rectified, thus scewing the balance much further.

Now you want to remove the ability to chain, in order to make it easier to provide balanced content, level the playing field on, well, leveling, etc. The problem is that chains have already been in use for 3+ years. The advantage of being in a chain has already been soaked by HUNDREDS of players. The teams of lvl 126+ toons are ALREADY out there. Removing the chains doesnt undo any perceived imbalance. Or perhaps you figure we will balance it ourselves, when all of the folks from before the change quit? And shame on you if you even consider trying to remove levels or XP earned from before the change. I have never used a chain in my life, and i PROMISE you that if a single point of XP were to disappear off of one of my toons, all 6 of the accounts in this house would be canceled, followed by most of the rest of my clan when I quit this game.

I cana appreciate that there is alot of thought and design in the new allegiance system. It encourages a stronger patron/vassal relationship. The problem is that it monkeys with existing clans' way of doing things. I started my clan about 6 months intot he game. I was never really big on the whole XP thing; I always earned far more XP form my own hunting than my vassals could ever give me. You know, back BEFORE hunting became the most boring, tedious thing you can do in the game. Eventually, my vassals recruited vassals, and THEY recruited vassal, etc. However, no matter WHO each new toon was sworn to, I made it a point to get to know them, and I always considered them MY vassals too, even if they werent sworn to one of my toons directly. In other words, I did what a monarch "should" do; I looked after ALL of my followers, taught them what I knew, and helped them every chance I go. Pretty soon, I had little time for hunting, even when I wanted to. I was spending most of my time in-game organizing clan things and helping folowers. But it was ok, cos I LIKED doing it, and besides, I always got a piece of the pie no matter where they were sworn in.

In the new system, the further down the tiers a follower is, the less incentive a monarch has to pay any attention to them, at least from an in-game rewards stance. Not to mention that this change wont really stop XP whoring; it will only shift the focus. Players are still going to recruit solely for XP. The difference is that they will now make sure he new guy is sworn directly to them, where they get maximum benefit, rather than further down the line, where others could benefit from it as well. The greed of the individual will override the former benefits to the many.

Another note on the allegiance changes. I hope you plan on introducing some way to level trade toons with reasonable amount of time invested in it. The best way, currently to produce a really good trade toon is to swear other toons to them. Currently, you can slip the toon into a "chain" and not have it create a great deal of impact on the other toons if it never gets its own XP. Under the new system, it will require players to get multiple toons sworn to it for real effect, therby encouraging folks to recruit solely for XP again. Trying to make a toon both combat worthy AND a viable trade toon simply isnt practical. I dont want 5 semi-gimped toons, each devoting some skill credits to a particular trade. I want ONE toon that does it all properly and doesnt HAVE to worry about conmbat-worthiness. The system in AC2 worked well, in that trade skills didnt rely on our precious skill credits to learn, and didnt require XP to master; only repetition (like the EQ system does). Tedium in itw own right, but at least tradeskills didnt hamper combat skills, or vice versa.

Then lets look at macros. By removing chains, you remove a prime source of XP for those who choose to use it. The folks who were macroing will no longer have this as a second source of XP. so they will spend even MORE time macroing to make up for it, possibly in higher-content dungeons. I hope you have something in place to deal with this. The macroers have done far more harm than chains ever could; and i mean something BETTER than your current way of dealing with them.

Subscription costs. Well I must say this IS long overdue. Your timing is very very bad. You are making a HUGE fundamental change to the game, which yo HAVE to know WILL cause a large number of folks to quit. This looks alot like an attempt to shore up your income from the folks willing to stick it out, to compensate for that loss. The rise in cost would have been much better timed a few months AFTER this change, and when the new expansion is looking more like an upcoming event than a pipe-dream. Then you have something to show the player base, that is well received by the majority, rather than a highly controversial issue like chains. "Ok folks, we are gonna nerf chains, even though all the perceived damage is already done. Oh and BTW, for a kick inthe teeth, those of you that stick around are going to pay more per month now, too!" As I said, the increase in price IS long overdue, but your timing could not have been worse.

Changes to the ID screen. Removing leadership/loyalty doesnt bother me; like I said its never been ahigh priority to me. But the addition of a toons DoB is a VERY bad idea. Franly, its no one's business how long my toon has been in-game, or how long it took me to get to lvl X. If I want them to know, I will tell them. Giving the players the ability to see, at a glance, if a toon is pre-chain or post-chain wil lonly create an unnecessary rift. Anti's seeing a pre-chain toon at lvl 126 will assume they chained their way up to it, whether they did or not. Old timers seeing a recent-birth toon will assume they are a noob and their views are unimportant. There is no GOOD reason to add this. All it will do is foster hate and grudges. Honestly, WHY would we need to see anyone else's DoB?

Of course I am wasting my time, since you have proven in the past that, by the time you post something, its far too late too make any changes, no matter how badly we all know its is going to bork the system.

[Karem Darsun]

I guess this puts to bed the old arguments about how much influence Microsoft had in past decisions, and whether or not turbine disagreed.

What does it mean, not much in itself, probably a little pain in the short term, and fun on the new server, but long term, turbine are backing up their words. A good feeling for the future of the game

Hehe only thing to wonder if this is the mythical fix stated by Todd those many years ago

Edit: One thing i agree with, is that it does mean that there now has to be a system put in place to level trade mules, that doesn't necessarily require killing

[Meri]

I'm so disappointed...

I'm the monarch of an allegiance that has worked very hard to retain the "family" atmosphere and still allows followers to take advantage of experience chains. It is possible to blend both... and we're proof that it works.

Sure, we've had several who chained their way up to 100+ and then left for greener pastures... but c'est la vie... that's the way they wanted to play.

What you are doing will lose probably more accounts (both secondary and primary) than you'll ever gain. There again... c'est la vie.

If you wanted to "fix" the chains, then you should go after the UCMers that are still overpopulating the worlds. If you'd followed through on that situation to begin with, you wouldn't see as many people maxxing out and becoming "bored" with the game.

I'm a level 126+ who enjoys still enjoys playing every day. I find joy in exploring something new... or going back and "rediscovering" something that I'd forgotten... or just spend time chatting with friends around the mansion... but it's still a joy to actually play the game.

At the same time, I'm currently paying for 5 accounts... and between raising the fees and wanting me to "rearrange" my monarchy... I'm not so sure I'm willing to do it.

I will have to think long and hard about this... as I'm sure others will... and it's just a shame that we didn't have time to give input before the changes were set in stone.

Ah well...

I'm sure you wouldn't miss the income from the other 4 accounts I'm paying for...

[War-Wizard-HG]

Ibn what are the new passup formaulas going to be or are we going to have to wait and figure them out on our own?

Im asking this because im going to have to totally change my template to take advantage of the new system IF i stay playing AC.

I want to know if its going to be worth it or not

[Stupner_TD]

what about the mini chain i have my tradesmules in now? how can i rework it when all my active toons are higherlevel then they are?

[Nexus-HG]

I do understand what you are trying to accomplish.

I really do.

I guess one of the big things that I think about, such as on my server for example, is just the numbers involved.

6000 member clan with 10 xp chains...

probably lose a good portion of thier playerbase to several "splinter groups" of close gaming or maybe RL friends.

200-400 member group with a few chains...

Clan killer?


The need for the change to encourage honest hard hunting just doesn't seem justified to me since so many people in other guilds in my server got free rides for so long.

Sure the ride stops for them too, but they are already got a 100 mile head start on those of us that run more traditional monarchies.

[daminion]

i returned to AC after a break of 2 years. when i left i was level 75... which was a decent level and i was able to explore almost all of the content that was in-game at the time.

now that i've returned after 2 years (and leveled to 85 on my own in an attempt to get to a level where a chain would see me as an asset) i can't turn around without seeing a level 126 toon... many people have multiple level 126s on their accounts.

high-end quests are usually closed to me because people don't want to bring along "the noob"... and any chance for me to hit 126 will be closed with these XP chain changes.

If I can't level fast to enjoy the game with my friends who are levels above me... well what point is there for me to continue... especially at a higher per month rate?

the game was never friendly to those of us who work for a living and have homes and families... but at least XP chains gave us a chance... without them, well... there just no point in continuing.

[Korrigan]

I would like to moderate my previous post by saying "Do this ONLY on the new server". Let the old doods play on their uber xp doodish servers, and create the new worlds for all those who want to experience AC1 the REAL way. Although I really enjoy seing the former cheaters and abusers of chains crying like new born babies ... :D

[Rhodoman]

Just add a character reset to the works and you'll find out who your real playerbase is.

I'd be back playing in the morning even if I found no characters saved on my login screen.

Rho

[Mat Icefalcon]

Haven't you guys learned anything from AC2.. I put up with getting back from deployment and having all my skills reset (I'd call that a major change), then you do this after 4 years to AC???

Who the heck is making these decisions???

WoW here I come.

[blackcestus]

I think you are loosing alot of players for this stunt of yours. If there is a problem with the server handling xp chain codes. maybe its time for a brand new computer system. maybe get some 64 bit systems rolling ??????????????

[U-Law-HG]

when you are ready to declare bankrupcy, let me know, i can set you up with a good lawyer.

[Nexus-HG]

I do agree with that guy earlier in the thread.

I DO NOT want to have to tell peeps where to swear or to whom.

I am a monarch but not a dictator.

However, there will be guilds that WILL restructure to take advantage of this system.

---

*edit*

This WILL NOT stop macroers guys. The UCM argument is only good on its own merits.

This simply removes chains from the formula. MORE peeps will now macro to make up for the lost XP from the chains.

---

The more I think about the mansion (probably better on another thread but oh well)...

Do I really even need a mansion anymore?

I mean, really, you have taken most of the interest of being a monarch of a traditional monarchy away. That mansion is really all I have left.

You better have some darn good ideas for that mansion...

And they better include more chests, more features, and hookable portals...

[telgar]

well, where to start?
Congrats, you just gave me the incentive i needed to finally quit this game and save myself the soon to be $39 a month

I was excited by some of the things Turbine talked about doing, updated graphics and a new expansion pack especially.... not thrilled with the subscription increase but i understand the need.

But this pretty well ends it.... anyone thats not lvl 200+ when this take effect is screwed.

I've played on darktide for over 3 years now and have several 126 characters, but they are nowhere near maxed out. And im not spending several months rearanging their character stats to make them playable again just so you can nerf them for the hundreth time.

on top of that i'm sure we are about to see a rash of lvl 200+ charaters hit ebay with $1k price tags. Sorry, but i can't afford to compete that way either :(

it's been fun.....later

[Ionia]

Most people I know only use one account therefore they cannot swear to themselves to PL a mule or secondary toon - they need someone in-between their toons.

With this new system it makes it almost impossible for someone with a SINGLE account to level their mules, that is unless you are gonna make it possible for toons on the same account to swear to each other.

[Lilkinsly]

Firstly, I understand that possibly Turbine has wanted to make this change for a long long time, yet MSN would not let you.

However now that you CAN make the change doesn't mean you SHOULD.

For the new server, I think this will be great, I'm kind of torn for the old servers though.

I am the Monarch of a small anti-macro, and anti-chain clan. We are a family, and family is more important then xp. Don't get me wrong though, we still love to hunt and level. However, XP was never primary.

The problem is this. Myself and some others lead a lot of quests, tink, do crafting whatever, a large percentage of our in game time. We help the clan, and in reward for that, we get some passup (believe me, nothing major.) Now, if we wish to improve our characters, we need to make a choice. Hunt, or help the clan. No easy way to do both.

Re-organize you say? Let's look at that. Firstly, we have never assigned patrons, and I NEVER will. Secondly, the way that many people have gotten by without macroing or chaining is them having Multiple accounts, giving a little passup to themselves. Now this will no longer be possible. So odds are pretty good they will still be sworn to themselves, but only one or 2 chars deep. Asking or getting them to swear to somebody else like a clan trade mule may or may not happen.

In the end, I think this is a great idea for the new server, but a bad one for the old.

For Dereths sake, if this does happen, please make Leadership free, or at least lower the cost to 2 credits. 4 is crazy.

[Sax]

THANK YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ally]

This appears to be huge step in the right direction! Good Riddance Microsoft!

[pacesetter]

ok, first I have leader and loyalty above 240 and 260 on both mains. Both are 126, I did it with my followers ( >500), not in a chain. I dislike chains that REQUIRE a set amount of xp and pass-up to be met. Yes, my followers form a chain of sorts.

the only thing I see happening here is mules and inactive chars will not be in a monarchy! they will be blasted out to make room for 12 active vassals.

the only thing you did to stop a chain is to make it go 12 characters wide rather than 1 wide. with 90% cap I'll take that. but again there will be no mules or inactives in my line.

right now I have (on 2 accounts) about 65-70 vassals sworn with 6 active xp pushers. our monarchy has 1400 or so members, soon to be going down to ??? and the monarch losing rank because the inactives and mules held it up. guess we might lose the mansion BUT then again we won't really need it cause everyone will just mule at home and meet in the marketplace.

I think you blew it on this one. the good guys lose again unless we REALLY TRUELY have no cares about the passup.

Also you just lost one who spent many hours each week with newbs. they are on their own unless they are sworn directly to me.

when I started this game I was level 12 before anyone ever even talked to me and level 37 before anyone ever asked me to be a member of their allegiance.

We are falling back to this type of attitude, mark my words!
an the chains will still be there just 12 chars wide!!!!!

[Nailer]

Ibn, it would really, really be appreciated it you could respond to this message.

As of now, towns in this game are abandoned. The only use in going to them is to restock, which takes all of 5 minutes. After that, just recall to the mansion and see other players there. But, there’s a small problem here. What about the players that don’t have monarchies, or wish to interact with players that are in other monarchies, in a non-hunting, social environment?

Some of my fondest memories in this game were earlier in the game, when towns were actually used. Me and my friends used to just sit around in towns talking. There was more you could do there than just play “Climb to the top of the mansion.” You could meet new players, you could greet people as they just started playing the game.

It wasn’t all about scheduling a quest to get that new uber item, or about planning to go hunting in some new uber leveling spot. It was just about having fun.

/mansion_recall killed all incentive for towns.

So, what I propose.. why not disable mansion_recall on the new server? Perhaps towns would actually have PEOPLE in them.

We would be lying to ourselves if we said there would be no “mad rush” for houses when the new server opens. Perhaps some people would actually choose cottages over villas in this situation? There will be no plat bugs to help make money, there will be no SIK economy unless people begin one, there will be no level 7 spells. Or, in other words, money won’t be the most abundant thing in the game anymore.

Also, do you plan on leaving tradebots in the game? I’m unsure of my stance on them as of now.


So, for anyone who is skimming: Here is what I propose:

1) Disable mansion_recall

[Gafoon]

Ibn,
You claimed that leveling a trade character is easier with this change - I can't disagree more. Leveling a trade character that's level 126 is now easier. But my trade mule is level 70, and ALL of the playable characters on my account are higher than that.

We have NO way of leveling the trade mule so we can increase the number of characters sworn to that mule UNLESS we reroll.

And I'm not willing to reroll my currently played characters - I played HP from level 1 to level 85, with essentially no external support (as a challenge), and I'm not about to do it again.

Please, Please, PLEASE reconsider the ability to swear between characters of different levels if the characters are > 50.

My personal take is that this shouldn't be a destabilizing change since you can already get into an XP sharing fellowship with the two characters and achieve almost the same results.

[kgober]

Originally posted by Ibn
Regarding leveling up a trades character... while yes, it is no longer effective to do this via a chain, it is MUCH more effective to do this via direct active vassals.

Please note, as is stated, that the direct vassal->patron pass-up is actually increasing.

Since I'm a multiple-account player, this doesn't affect me. But if I were someone with only one account, it would mean that I would no longer be able to effectively level my own trademule.

I could only level *other* people's trademules.

I'm not certain this is a good thing. Not for a game that has always declared itself 'solo-friendly', anyway.

-ken

[RunningWolf_WE]

And you say you listen to what the players want? 80% of every reply to this thread is bashing your decision. I find it amusing tha you buy the game for microsoft, annouce all the cool things your going to be doing, exspansion,graphic updates, content etc. Then a month later you annouce 12.95 a month and your changing the entire way that xp has been passed since day one. Way to go Turbine you sure know how to shoot yourselves in the foot. I speak for myself and 2 of my friends you will lose 10 accounts because of this. *golf clap*

[Ibn]

Originally posted by Astral_Dominae
Ibn, how will this effect patrons with no leadership trained?

Patrons without leadership will still benefit from the improved vassal-to-patron direct passup.

[Astral_Dominae]

Originally posted by Ibn
Patrons without leadership will still benefit from the improved vassal-to-patron direct passup.


Thank you very much Ibn.

May we know how much the leadership skill will influence the passup-xp (in a formula probably?) ? Or is that yet to determine and/or secret :cool:

[QED]

Thanks Turbine.

I just activated my account that I left 1.5 years ago.

[Delupin]

I guess that answers the question of whether or not Leadership will still have a skill credit cost.

[Lilkinsly]

Ibn,
Another thing to consider is this. A large portion of the current playerbase already has a high level toon (70+) so they have access to good loot. They are more then capable of supporting their own re-rolls.

Hence, there is very little that a patron will be able to provide. I think you will find many people swearing to themselves on different accounts.

I also hope you plan on tripling Admin Macro coverage. This will drive macroing through the roof. :(

[LordShadowz]

Yea well last month there was a huge outcry over the weeping weapon change. They did it and maintain the change anyways. Even when the evidence of all the negative effects is staring at them in the face. I feel They aren't listening to us players anymore. Posting feedback on the forums doesn't seem to matter if you look at the track record from past months.


It's very upsetting. I wish it would change, but it doesn't seem to be likely.

The only way they will listen is if it hits them in the wallet.

Billy
LordShadowz

[AStrange1]

Ibn, could you address my concerns from earlier, several monarchs on TD have stated they feel the same as myself.

http://vnboards.ign.com/Thistledown/b5157/62513958/?43

[Taker_AC]

I kinda like it and don't like it!

The current setup of my friends and I makes our patron see more xp (I like this).

The problem I see is that you are reqiring yet another skill to be trained in order to see a major benifit. I don't know about the rest of you, but I feel severly limited in my template choices now adays because I see all my toons requiring more skills to survive, with the same amount of credits to build them.

I'm guessing on the numbers, but let say 50% of the population chains. You just nurfed that 50% and told them that you are going to charge them more for a new server and opperations costs... If I were one of them 50%, I'd be seriously considering my options.

EDIT: So with this change, your going to bring back to old drain functionality, right? :cool:

Had to try.

[Saratoga_TD]

Wow. All I can say is you guys have made the worst decision you've ever made in AC today. You do realize, by doing this, you're losing half the AC player population.

You better raise your prices to $20 a month per account to make up for lost $. I figured once M$ let go of you guys, you'd make better choices. Not ruin the game.

It's nearly impossible for me to level up any character in a mini chain now. I can't rearrange them now as they can't swear to each other.

It's been 4 years in AC and you're making this change now? You're totally unbalancing the game. All the players that are 200+ are going to stay 200+ while no one else will be able to level that high up now. Really, I must applaud this. You guys are smarter than you appear.

You guys really thought this one through didn't you? Good luck, you can count on losing $180 a month from my friends and myself. Thanks a ton.

[Harzah]

I can see that leveling a crafter character via this could be easier... if they're aren't already passed in level in a mini-chain (or greater). But if they are, what then? The article as far as I can see did not actually state whether the level requirement would be kept or not. It seems so from reading it however I would like confirmation.

[korebantic]

I think some people are seriously underestimating the power of increased exp gain from direct vassals.

A few people have commented that as a grandpatron will care less about a grandvassal. I disagree. Now a patron truly has to take care of his direct vassals, so they in turn will take care of their vassals, etc. Isn't that in a sense what the patron/vassal system was supposed to be about from the beginning?

Also, because direct vassal exp has increased I'm not so sure there will be this huge doom and gloom level gap people are predicting.

I just see this as a new dimension to the game to shake things up, make it more interesting. The patron vassal relationship will now be more important than it was before.

[SegZavier]

The increased Vassal to Patron exp will be good for Allegiance Wide chains, the decreased pass through will be bad for small private chains, with mules and other non played characters in them.


Wonder how little this change will really affect those massive chains that have people who play for 100's of millions of exp a day.

[U-Law-HG]

http://vnboards.ign.com/Harvestgain/b5154/62517984/?11

turbine and all you whiners about xp chains just got pwnt.

[Helbereth]

Are there any logical thoughts in your brains at all?

1) You will destroy the entire monarchy system. What's the point in having an allegiance of more than 12 followers? Why deal with the hassle of grandvassels whom you get nothing from? I personally couldn't care less for vassels whom I never get anything from, thereby rendering them a waste of my time to deal with. You may partially improve the patron/vassel relationship, but monarchs will no longer have any reason to consider the vassels that are not directly sworn to them.

2) You will in effect create a massive chasm between high level toons that already exist and those who have not been created. You've removed the possibility for people to gain the xp needed to advance their characters (in terms of skills) beyond 126, while there still remain many (and I mean MANY) characters that (based on approximate numbers calculated by treestats etc.) have gone well beyond 126 -- past 200. Nobody will ever completely max out a character again without countless tedious hours hunting. This is very unfair to those of us who have not managed this.

3) Your content for anyone under level 80 is a complete waste of time. There's nothing fun involved in wasting 2 hours attempting to aquire an item that won't ever help you.

4) You will greatly increase the amount of tedium involved in leveling past 80 since (and I don't care how you try to slice it) aquiring, providing for and aiding 12 vassels that produce xp for you is a veritable impossibility.

5) Unattended Combat Macroing will become more wide-spread as most of those who practice it presently will see this as merely a reason to do it all the more, and those who had only considered it before will start practicing it. In other words you're shooting yourself in the foot.

6) I'm not sure about anyone else posting here but I've never had a patron that provided me with anything, nor did I ever want one. They're unreliable, usually half-witted and this new system won't change that. I actually see it making it worse. Patrons will scamper to pick up 'xp generator(i'd use another word, but it's not appropriate terminology)' vassels, and abandon them the same way as always. This is not a perfect world. This is human psycology -- human nature -- we're discussing here.

7) I've always enjoyed AC for the many ways you can play it. Most people will agree that there's more than one way to make a toon, more than one way to level, more than one way to make a living and more than one way to fletch an arrow in Asheron's Call. By removing XP Chains (and that's what you're doing incase you didn't notice) you're removing yet another way for people to access this game thereby reducing the number of people who will ultimately decide to continue playing AC, as well as reduce the number of potential new players.

8) I've been in the same allegiance since I started playing almost 2 years ago. There are a lot of people in the monarchy whom I get along with. There is a chain in the monarchy and it does tend to stand out among the other things that happen within the monarchy, but in no way has it ever had a detrimental effect on the monarchy as a whole. We still have a community involvement, we help eachother out, go on quests, and sometimes we just sit around and shoot the breeze (or we run around hunting, shooting the breeze on the meginjarder IRC channel). I've had toons in the chain on multiple occasions, but certainly not all of them. Each of my 8 toons has been raised differently. Either through PLing from another toon (by taking advantage of the chain system on a small scale), power hunting or chaining -- or as in my first toon's case running into places and praying to god I'll live long enough to make some XP. Certainly those toons I had in the chain grew up quicker than my others, but what's so wrong with that? If you want to be high level why do you have to spend countless hours hunting (either for xp or for vassels) in order to reach that goal. Is it your plan to make AC the most tedious MMORPG? Sure seems that way.

9) They say foresight is 20/20, and maybe they're right. Maybe you should have put more thought into the lasting effects of the allegiance system. Maybe you should have considered the simple mathematical way in which a chain could be constructed, nurtured and organized. 4 years later you can probably look back and think 'now why didn't we have sticky-melee at release?' or 'what were we thinking with that whole spell research system?', but those were much simpler things to fix. Changing the way allegiances are constructed? Forcing us to completely reorganize an entire allegiance in order to try and salvage what once was? That's madness! Who wants to spend that much time trying to fix something that didn't need breaking? All you'll be doing is splitting apart the monarchies, generating anarchy, confusion, and reducing the game's fun factor as well as it's simplicity factor. Sure in a year or so it might all work, but during that year a lot of people are just gonna say 'this is a game, who really cares? I can just go play Pokemon'.

10) this whole idea just stinks, and in all likelyhood if it's implimented you'll lose 2 paying accounts at the very least.

Well done, Turbine. Way to go! Excellent way to make a game suck. You remind me of a very young Sega or 3D0. In the halls of the greatest failures of the 21st century there shall be a solemn plaque "Asheron's Call. Once a great game. Destroyed by its very creators, may it rest in digital pieces."

[kgober]

korebantic: you're correct that grandpatrons will be more interested in their grandvassals.

interested in stealing them for themselves, enticing them away from their current patrons with promises of equipment and powerleveling.

high-level (100+) characters who spend a comparitively small amount of time killing monsters (trademules and 'social' players) will find it harder to find and keep an xp-driven patron, as they get dropped in favor of players who produce more xp.

we'll end up with two kinds of allegiance trees: xp-rich trees, and xp-poor trees. this isn't terribly different from what we have now, except that the xp-rich trees are currently called 'chains', and they produce a very large amount of 'bonus' xp as a result of the current mechanics. I agree that a reduction in this 'bonus' is called for, but the new system seems to be going a bit too far.

-ken

[Theran_Bakagin]

I'm really not going to like this situation with the Exp change...

My main was created 11/6/99. I ran a small monarchy.. mostly of RL friends... we had built ourselves in a small minichain... and being that I dealt with the political aspects, AND that I was the one who played the least...I was placed at the top of the tree... Today I have only one of those original folks still playing.. He is unfortunately 2 down the line from me with a character between us that is unplayed...

My "grand vassal" is also some 5 levels higher than me at this point --I'm 97 working 98 and he's like 105(he took a year off and I STILL didn't catch him)... so the only way for me to change where he is beneath me directly is for me to crank out some 250 million exp to get equal or above him... THEN we have the issue that I lose 4 years of sworn time with the folks under me... because the need would be to break him from one and move him... starting the "sworn to" timer all over again...

*groan* I am not happy.....

[kgober]

any allegiance that has a large number of inactive players will find it very difficult to rearrange themselves, unless they're willing to just kick the inactives out altogether.

even that might be difficult to manage, if the inactives contributed to rank requirements.

-ken

[Arlaine]

A small tale ...

Recently my allegiance decided that we needed to reorganize to better utilize XP passup. So, we restructured into a long chain -- not "optimized" with Leadership and Loyalty -- just a chain.

I *hated* it and I still *hate* it. I actually cried when we broke up long-standing relationships just for XP. Instead of everyone passing up XP, no one played anymore. I didn't want to play anymore and, instead, turned to single-player games over the holidays.

My real patron's co-vassal channel was always active, now I have to deal with tell hell when 2 or more of us are on. Allegiance chat will help, but sometimes, you might want to say something to your co-vassals that you don't want the entire allegiance to hear.

Thank you, Turbine!! :)

Now, we have no reason to stay split up and we can go back to the way we were. A family who hunted together and didn't care about LEVEL or XP or instant-126 newbs.

BTW, both of my trade mules hunt and accept any of the XP giving loot anyone wants to give them (swamp stones, dillo spines, bug parts, etc.) My alchemist is Sho and hunts UA (free skill). My cook is Gharu and hunts staff (free skill). Neither of them have moved up quickly nor put any points into their weapon skill, but I've had a great time playing them as well as my main. If I needed a higher trade skill, like for tinkering, I turned to my allegiance.

There are going to be a lot of ramifications of this change. Not all of them will be good to everyone ... but not all of them will be bad, either. So far, it's mostly a win for me!

[KirillHuntersun]

There's already a method to exploit this using round-robin Patrons for 126+ characters floating around on VNBoards. Yes, you can level a patron tradesmule directly much more easily, but for those folks who used the old method - specifically, a man in the middle so that characters on their ONE ACCOUNT can pass up to each other, with a cross-server mule swap occasionally providing the character - are totally screwed. You now have to either make a combat-capable trades character, feed them the Olthoi Chasm notes for XP (which we STILL aren't sure is intended or an exploit), or get someone else to hunt under the character, because we cannot swear to characters on the same account.

May not seem like a big deal, but you DO recall that archers need a competent tradeskills character in order to use better than storebought ammo, yes?

Chains that contain active characters are only going to get MORE effective, and forcefully weed out the slackers. How that breaks out remains to be seen, but that may still regenerate the tendency to a social interaction.

My biggest concerns are these, though.

1. My mage is sworn to my wife's trades character, who is in turn sworn to my trades character. My mage is currently levelling both of them quite satisfactorily. However, my mage is 10 levels higher than my trades character, and my wife's is as high as it needs to be. Even if I COULD swear a character to another on the same account, my mage is too high in level for the situation as it exist currently. Suddenly, my trades character is stuck where he is, and he's the one with tinkering skills/stats optimized. What are people like this supposed to do in this situation?

2. My wife's main, an axer, is sworn to my main, an archer. We routinely hunt together, and the marginal amount of XP that she passed up - low loyalty, my main didn't have Leadership at the time - was still a bit of an annoyance. Now, I do have Leadership, and my wife's busy season is coming to an end, so we were going to be able to hunt together again. Now, though, we're going to be out hunting, and I'll be making nearly 75% more XP than she is for the same time hunting. IIRC, Vassal XP isn't shared in fellowship. This will lead to me rapidly outlevelling my hunting partner, simply because one of us is sworn to the other. I can't imagine this is uncommon, so why wasn't the impact of this considered? If anything, in this situation it's going to cause resentment, not strengthen social aspects.

For tradeskills, a method to use them to gain XP rapidly without it being eligible for passup through the use of those skills would be welcome and good enough for getting those characters levelled up without external assistance. I haven't the slightest idea how to fix what this will do to Patron/Vassal hunting sessions, but it's really going to hurt our enjoyment of the game. My wife busts her tail far too much when hunting for the only result to be me outlevelling her at a rapid pace.

[gaandar]

I have read through all of the posts of "doom and gloom" regarding the changes to EXP pass-up.

It seems to me that most people miss the point of this game. The point is not to increase in level until you reach the top. There is no top -- no finish line to race toward. This game is about adventure and exploring and camaraderie. It's about the experience of being on Dereth, of fighting monsters, of finding treasure. This can be done at any level.

To those of you tempted to race after and keep up with the level addicts I say, "Let them go. They have no idea where they are going."

[-Strike-]

Welp, looks like the anti-chainers have finally won.

Increasing the monthly cost, and destroying all of what some people play for (making others happy by providing passed up experience, and leveling multiple characters off your own experience) - I have a feeling alot of people will be looking for the door out now :(

Oh well.

[Extinction]

Originally posted by Ibn
Use this thread to comment on the coming Allegiance Experience changes (http://ac.turbinegames.com/index.php?page_id=157) .

Way to promote macroing guys :)

[Ashanor]

Finally!!!!! 4 years playing this game and my main is only level 98! Never touched a chain and never will. Thanks for making this change.

[archer of sjet]

I also view this as destroying the current monarchy. No one is new in this game anymore. Heck you can't even find AC in stores anymore, you have to order though internet. I think this change is late and can only see good on this new server.

I want to stay but your tacking on things to drive me away with added costs and EXTREME changes.

[-Strike-]

Originally posted by Extinction
Way to promote macroing guys :)


Heh you should see it now, I'm serious, everyone's practiallty running off to make as much xp as they can now before these changes. It's going to go downhill.

[Rebel1608]

"While we’d really love to be able to show you exactly how much allegiance XP a character has received, we unfortunately can’t do that. We felt that this was the next best thing. "

Why would you do such a thing even if you could? The only thing that would do is promote harrassment, fighting, and a general wedge in the player-base being made VISIBLE.

Perhaps I'm not seeing what you're seeing, but what good would come of that?

[Geomancer]

Originally posted by gaandar
I have read through all of the posts of "doom and gloom" regarding the changes to EXP pass-up.

It seems to me that most people miss the point of this game. The point is not to increase in level until you reach the top. There is no top -- no finish line to race toward. This game is about adventure and exploring and camaraderie. It's about the experience of being on Dereth, of fighting monsters, of finding treasure. This can be done at any level.

To those of you tempted to race after and keep up with the level addicts I say, "Let them go. They have no idea where they are going."

Says someone who's obviously never played on Darktide, where other players actually matter.

[Zero_Washu]

First I cannot believe the whiners about passup in chain-free allegiances. If you were not concerned with experience before why are you suddenly now?

No one has to swear to anyone else, nothing is changed except passup. So which was it, friendship or passup that you cherished?


As for the change overall. Overdue but POINTLESS


Reward the people who abused the chains, leave the game totally unbalanced for PVP and PVE. Not smart. Unless you institute a reasonable level cap your change has no merit. You fix nothing, only make a have/have not system.

[Clav]

As much as I was hoping for a change to the xp pass up system I've mixed emotions regarding the proposed changes.

Part of me is curious. I remember the claims of some that it wasn't macros that was the problem, but the chains that made them so effective. Well, this change with either prove them right, or their words a lie.

I just have visions of a macro fellow of 9, each one of them pledged to a member of a different macro fellow of 9, with each of them pledged to another macro fellow of 9...

I worry that it will cause more to macro and to have less regard for others as they'll just take over whole dungeons now.

I'm also a bit disappointed that I won't be able to effectively level up the crafters that I've started working on. I am working on a tinker for each skill and a traditional crafter. This change will mean that I'll only truly be able to level up one of them unless I want to put time in playing multiple toons, each sworn to a crafter.

Unfortunately, I don't have that kind of time.

I just think that this could have been handled better. A 30 day moratorium on pass up would have been quite effective, I think. Any break in chains would effectively hamstring them as pass up would not begin until after a vassal was pledged 30 days to his patron. A system like that would have hurt macroers, too, much more so than the current changes due to be implemented.

So, as much as I'm glad to see the chain issue being addressed I have reservations as to the effectiveness of the changes.

I just hope that there are ways to help level crafters put into game in conjunction with this.

[BlackCaptain]

I find the timing amazing. Here I was getting ready to compose my "c ya later" note to Turbine because of all the problems that I saw in the game and here you go and get ready to blow one of them away. Well done. Better late than never I guess.

What's the old saying? "When you remove your number one problem all of your other problems get a promotion."

You better find a way to deal with the UCM.

Swearing toons on the same account would be a big help too.

I'll see y'all on the new server.

Just a friendly jab at my DT "friends" - DT has been a fine example in the MMRPG community - of how NOT to manage PK - good luck with the change.

[Jin Saotome]

Hmmmm, I think we should all take a look back on this post for a moment. http://forums.ac.turbinegames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=543&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

Sylphia, Roc, you two in particular remember this one? Now I got something for ALL of you...

WE WIN


The battle is over, the casaulties were heavy (people left the game on both sides because of this) but in the end, the good guys won, and that brings a tear to my eye IRL. This change only strengthens my belief that Turbine knows exactly what needs to be done to AC to make it the ABSOLUTE best MMORPG out there, no matter what the complaining exp-hungry groups say.

/e throws down his sword.

"It is over."

[Helbereth]

You're an idealist, aren't you?

Sorry, reality check.

If you play this game to 'hang around' like you're in a mall and 'have adventures' like an 8 year old, that's fine, but most of the mature players are in it for the aquisition aspect from which a common result is friendships with other players.

In your fantasy world everyone gets along just 'cause they're there. That's the world a child believes in.

In the real world, as it is reflected in AC, people develop lasting relationships based on trust, respect and experience (not necessarily the XP kind).

XP chains and large monarchies are held together based on trust and respect for the other members of the monarchy. That respect is earned. Those who are not able to earn that respect -- the bad apples -- are tossed away like so much garbage.

[-Strike-]

Give it a couple days or weeks after patch, garuntee you someone will find away around this.

^5's the Pro-Chain people.

[AlphaSwift]

Good call, Turbine.

[Firilisun]

Too bad this wasn't done 3-4 years ago, AC would have been much more successful if it had. As it is all of my friends left the game because chainign and combat macroing ruined the game.

What is really amazing is that the same whiners who want to chain and UCM are still at it: blah-blah-blah if you do this it will ruin the game and I will leave.

Look around you - AC1 is small and shabby now because your crowd had its way for far too long.


Hey - Turbine - forget opening one world. How about opening several, and consolidating all existing servers into fewer servers and shut-down UCM really hard? Bet you can actually grow AC1 if you do that.

[Geomancer]

Hmmmm, I think we should all take a look back on this post for a moment. http://forums.ac.turbinegames.com/s...mp;pagenumber=1
...

WE WIN

...



Who won? All my level 126+ characters on two accounts including my level 177 main? Is that who won? My level 150+ trade mule?

Oh you must be one of the level 200+ people. You're right, you win.

[-Strike-]

It's good to know I got my Tinkering mule with 0 deaths and has never killed a single monster to Level 194 ;o Good enough I guess!

[Chain]

"just the beginning of AC’s lifespan"

Does this mean the level cap is going away?

[SegZavier]

I am not exp hungry, I just liked being able to play a couple of characters and help level other characters that weren't being played.


Why is that wrong?

[Helbereth]

"/e throws down his sword"

...


What battle were you fighting? The war to kill AC?

Sorry not everyone thinks like you, Jin. We aren't so wrapped up in out own pride that we honestly think anyone gives a darn what we think.

I think what this all comes down to is the complete lack of content for anyone in the 100- range. You end up with all these whining liberals who want to 'be like the big boys', but don't want to work for it.

I think if they made a completely new server and erected this shoddy excuse for an allegiance system, added in lots of pointless quests for the whiners and made a lv 100 cap we'd all get to keep our allegiance system, and we'd at the same time be rid of all the whiners.

Whaddya say? Two birds with one stone. C'mon, it'll look good on your resume if you can accomplish two very difficult tasks with one sweeping maneauver.... Y'know instead of generating 30 new problems with one retarded decision.

[Jin Saotome]

"We" as in the people who fought so hard to get exp-chains removed.

I've been playing since 99, sometime after the "Sudden Season" if I remember correctly. My characters are level 110, 100, 80-something, all created from pure-playing and never having touched an exp chain or even used a 3rd party program.

"We" are the people who never gave up, even while being bashed and shunned ingame from the chainers, publicly hunted on message board forums, and have dealt with seein good friends and family leave AC because of exp-chains.

We won, and it's about time.

[Ziggy al-Zog Jr]

I'll hold off judgement for now. But it seems to me your punishing the people who maximized an origonal game dynamic after 4+ years, but doing nothing about combat macros. This will only make ucming that more attractive. Solve the larger problem, combat macros!!!

[Helbereth]

If winning means both armies die, what have we won?

[knowone201]

The sky is not falling people.
You can still get to level 126+ A person that don't play all to often should not get more xp than a person that actively plays with there Vassals. Who would you rather have in AC or as a friend? I believe Turbine will come up for a UCM fix. Then level will matter. If your a monarch and don't care about your Grand Vassals then you shouldn't be a monarch.

Most people will hardly notice the increase in price.

[s-inator]

Reasons why:

1) It will encourage many players of servers that were non-pk to try out PvP since they will no longer be at a disadvantage.
2) It will bring back a lot of subscriptions of old Darktiders who grew tired of the way things were in the original server.
3) The server would probably achieve a much higher amount of players due to the fact that there are already an assortment of white servers to choose from.

A last suggestion I have is to remove mansion barriers if this server does indeed become a red server so that player wars could be to actually claim territory instead of for the sheer fun of it.

I can promise you if this server in fact becomes a red server you will see an insane amount of resubscriptions.

It will give many players a chance to view what Darktiders are always reminsicing on: The old school Darktide. It will bring back flavor and mystery to the game and a sense of something new. I can only hope that this happens because if it does it will be a very good day for Asheron's Call.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also I am concerned about this type of chain exploit this comes from a Blood core:

"13man chain units, until 126 all sworn in one line

after 126 all sworn to one character until that character is maxed, then switch to the next character.

Repeate until you have 13 level 240s.



Total completion time for 13 level 240s, ~3 months.

[Insane Kitty]

why not have xp go up 2 tiers for those of us trying to level a mule on our own account when we only have 1 account?

even if you make the xp only 50% passup to the 2nd tier (from what the first tier gets). This way those of us who only have 1 account can continue to level their mules.

[Jin Saotome]

AC IS NOT GOING TO DISAPPEAR!!!!!!!!!

Just because you're losing your precious exp-mines doesn't mean the sky is falling and AC is doomed! Tides of Change, the Second Coming, A New Leaf, call it whatever you want, except the "End of AC" cause that's just not going to happen. There are too many of us pure-players that wanted this Exp-chain change for AC to shut down.

/e throws down his shield.

/e is gonna run outta stuff to throw soon

[-Strike-]

They should add a new command ingame, /unsubscribe. It'll save time.

[Geomancer]

Originally posted by Jin Saotome
"We" as in the people who fought so hard to get exp-chains removed.

I've been playing since 99, sometime after the "Sudden Season" if I remember correctly. My characters are level 110, 100, 80-something, all created from pure-playing and never having touched an exp chain or even used a 3rd party program.

"We" are the people who never gave up, even while being bashed and shunned ingame from the chainers, publicly hunted on message board forums, and have dealt with seein good friends and family leave AC because of exp-chains.

We won, and it's about time.

Oh a newbie - I've played since beta 2. :) I'm still not sure what it is that you won.... an argument? Good for you! The "Mennonites" of AC have won! Woohoo. So, you buff your characters by hand then right? Every hour? I... pity you.

[Hubbell]

En Insumi - My highest character is 109 war resist, I've played DT for 2 years, SC for the last 2 months, my highest there is a 92 war life critter spec and i've killed a bunch of those maxed resist characters you think ruined pk. It takes skill to kill people, get yourself some. Neither of them are chained except the level 92 who's gotten 100mill from my own minichain i've been pushing with 4 guys that I macro together on my 1 computer.

Someone inepts me and I gem or I just keep fighting. Most people don't inept in 1on1's though, so you're scenario is both ill thought out and just plain stupid. My level 92 has 400 buffed war btw with just 7's and the heiro gaunts.

[Ionia]

I am a community builder in an allegiance with almost 2.5k toons and with xp chains. We were founded after the free accounts were made unavailable, so we have far fewer dead accounts than many of the large allegiances.

To us it is the people within our gaming community who are important. In order to look after their needs I run an extensive website which involves many hours of work each week creating flash books out of people's AC tales, newsletters and other items which can keep me out of the game. When I am in game I lead quests. So far this month I have led 32 quests and been involved in leadership training with at least 5 people.

We have had periods in the game where our allegiance has had chains and periods where we haven't. We currently run 3 chains in the monarchy, one for mules and casual players, one for regular players, and one for people who are xp hungry and hunting daily. What we don't do is publicly recruit to the allegiance and new people to the monarchy need to be with us for 6 weeks before they can apply to join the chains. It means people join for us rather than for xp.

Our council has 13 members who are all actively involved in looking after people's gaming needs. Very few of them have time to hunt as they are working on areas to enhance our community. They are not freeloaders who get fat off the work of others. These are people who serve in the role of "super patrons" to the allegiance. Our group focuses on people being responsible for themselves and each other. As I said, we put our community and the players in it before the game.

While chains and xp have never been a priority for us, we understand the desire for people to reach 126 so they have their friends swear to them without restriction. xp goals continue as people work on maxing a stat or pushing their tinker toons, but due to the nature of our chains and our community, we have been able to cater for people who want to reach these goals as well as live an ACTIVE gaming life in AC

What you are planning to implement with these changes, dramatically effects the player focused allegiance. People will look to their vassals as xp machines rather than community members. Those in roles of leadership or service will need to recruit xp-producers rather than for wider community reasons. It will not stop the big xp focused allegiances for having their macro supports and chains, in fact it will magnify the current UCM problems sevenfold. The chains will no longer be known as chains but as pyramids. Their leadership will focus on selling their macro supports.

In closing I would like to say we're fortunate that we're now well established and well organised. These new changes will not penalize us greatly. However I cannot see this new system giving any advantage to newer allegiances. How can a new monarch set up to provide good leadership and service when they will need to focus on hunting and having high xp producers under them to level them and their tinkers up enough? The focus for new allegiances will have to become xp.

I see this change turning the spectrum of allegiance shades we currently have, uniformly grey and xp focused. Impliment this by all means on a new server as an experiement, but listen to the wealth of community leadership you have here. The majority are saying this is a mistake to put in place on existing worlds for good reasons.

[nadaprada]

I think this is one of the worst things you guys have added to the game. I have been playing for over 4 years and somthing like this might make me quit. :mad:

[skeptik73]

I think the changes are an important fundamental improvement. Loyalty-generated xp had been this great mysterious force that could be harnessed, amplified, and harvested by chain director into SIX TIMES the experience you actually earn yourself and distributed by the chain wizard to two or three hundred folks you don't even know. That was, in a word, communism. Everyone just work, and don't think about it too much, and we'll all benefit. And the system rewarded it huge, and so that's what happened.

Under the new system, while the potential value of the vassal xp is only equal to the amount you earn for yourself, you will have DIRECT control of that resource. You can trade it for what you want, like any other resource.

It will be a new age of self sufficiency.... of choosing a patron or a vassel based on merit.... instead of welcoming anyone capable of lifting a bow or a sword with open arms into the collective xp-chain fold.... knowing that odds are he will add value anyway, because well, when he generates six times his own xp for the collective chain, and only dilutes his received pool by 6%... well, its kind of hard NOT to add value there.

The new system rewards self-sufficiency instead. There will be no xp-chain wizards welcoming people into their fold, because there just is plain no incentive. And so each individual must decide on his own what he wants in exchange for the privilege of receiving his allegience. Everyone will now have to barter that for himself.

Communism, sadly has been the best game in town, because that's how it was structured. Under the new system, not only will it not be the best game in town.... its not even in town anymore. 10% ? I mean really why bother having it at all.

But hold your ground, Turbine, you are in the right here. You're going to get a lot of flak from the socialists, to raise it above 10% but don't let them win.

The natural place of power rests with the individual making informed choices based on the information available to him... not with a few gurus who amplify the efforts of the blind into tremendous power for all involved.

There will be a lot of whining. There will be some people who leave initially. But by making your game more natural, more correct.... you will attract even more players.

[Zonomar Xisle]

A good thing, just too bad it took 4 years+ to change it.

[Jin Saotome]

This new system does not change vassals into exp machines! It turns them into people you actually have to talk to and hunt with!

Direct vassals! I hope everyone knows what that means. It means people who play actively are no longer going to be put at the end of an ExpChain, hunting alone and having a mule or "filler" character as their patron!!!

Having REAL PLAYERS as your vassasl MEANS something again!

Now having 12 vassals of just mules and tradebots does NOTHING for exp.

Now you must talk to your vassals because that are LIVE PLAYING CHARACTERS.

Now you must act like a REAL PATRON, or loose those vassals!

NOW YOU HAVE RESPONSIBILITIES!!!!

Cant handle that? Well then I'm sorry to hear that, because as it stands you're about to go back to the "old days" with me. The days where good vassals meant something, you were a community, hunted together, quested together, and died together.

I am proud to say I have FOUR direct vassals that play by my side, talk to me, and that give me the good feeling of a family when I'm playing! (and after I finish my customs I'm working on, I'll have more time for AC this week!)

[-Strike-]

Every chain I've been in, I've always devloped a great relationship with the vassal/patron.

[Last Man]

IBN/Jessica:

Any introduction of this change has GOT to be accompanied by a serious clampdown on Macroing because this will drive people that direction. We will go from bad to worse if nothing changes on the Macro enforcement.

[Clav]

Jin, there is something that I'd like you to consider, if you would, and that is the fact that AC is in some ways a pretty screwed up game.

Don't get me wrong, I love AC, but it's set up to encourage the type of play that this change is correcting. I dislike xp chains and I'm glad that something is finally being done. But, the changes can't stop here.

The current system rewards those who have macroed/chained up by allowing them the ability to tinker up their equipment better than others who never chained possibly could. And there is no way to level up a tinker to the necessary levels without putting them in a chain.

So now Turbine is saying that those that have the maxed tinkers can keep them, but the rest of us have little chance of ever having one.

A little inequality in that, isn't there?

I applaud the xp chain changes. Turbine just needs to address the other issues that this creates and they need to stop rewarding those that use the "loopholes".

[Kid Karma]

/e "" Tips Hat ""



Well Done !!



Kid Karma :cool:

[Drakier]

I see this as a good change, and a good thing other than for something that was previously meantioned by Gafoon..

I now no longer have a viable solution for leveling my level 35 trademule.

If the level requirements for swearing to characters was removed or changed, it would make it easier, but as it is now, I'm a solo player. I have always been, and probably always will be.

I am very self-sustained, and I pride myself in that. The problem is that all my chars have now outleveled my trademule, and without the "chain" effect, he will get little to no XP now.

If the level cap were removed, and I'd be allowed to swear my level 110 to him, he could keep recieving amounts of XP thus making him a viable asset to me.

I ask that you make this change and consider the pro's vs the con's and see that although this does allow someone 126 to swear to a level 1, the negative effects of this are slim to none, while the benefits to the person are great.

Thank you for your time!

[Ibn]

Originally posted by Harzah
I can see that leveling a crafter character via this could be easier... if they're aren't already passed in level in a mini-chain (or greater). But if they are, what then? The article as far as I can see did not actually state whether the level requirement would be kept or not. It seems so from reading it however I would like confirmation.

There are no plans to change the level restriction on swearing allegiance.

[Ibn]

As I have said in other threads, attack ideas if you must, do NOT attack individuals. Personal attacks WILL be removed along with the posters of said attacks.

[Rhodoman]

It's a double-win.

1) The game will be a better one with this change.

2) The people that will leave because of this change will also make AC a better game.

Rho

[usblues]

http://vnboards.ign.com/Wintersebb/b5334/62523980/?13


the next exploit?

[Tsili]

Sounds good.

Please aalow people to view their own passup percentage in the character information window.


You can also diplay the actual percentages for the different resistances.

[Theran_Bakagin]

I have calmed down from where I was..

How much "time sworn" is going to be used here??

10 Days of Ingame time (I think that was the old system) is pretty easy to come up with...

How will this effect the 4 year established allegiance I have currently... with that person being currently stalled and inactive... My only active follower along that line is below him.. and CURRENTLY I see almost 90% of what he sends up... at this point I need some 5 levels to catch him (97 he's 105) ...

how much am I likely to lose or gain by removing him from where he is.. and moving him under me directly (assuming I can ever catch his main character)?

[Rebel1608]

Given that this dynamic will likely see allegiances switching around, will there be a change to the rank system? Where this new system supports wide vassal/patron relationships, the rank system rewards pyramid schemes. Previously there was no "conflict" between the two.

So, will any changes be made to the rank system in line with the new passup changes or will they remain the same? Just curious, I always tinker rank away anyway.

[Sangria]

Originally posted by underpaidmexica
Seriously i think you probably just lost a good portion of your subscriber base.

Seriously? I think you are wrong. I agree - some players will leave. But will the ones who quit be from the real player database or will they be the chainers and CM's?

I expect the people who quit will be the kind of players we will be well rid of. I hope some of them take their combat macro, xpchain selves out the door and dont let it hit them where the good lord split them on their way out!

And who CARES if this makes DT world mad? Their years of griping has messed with the rest of the worlds play for years. It's your turn to take the medicine.

[Ibn]

Originally posted by Tsili
Sounds good.
Please aalow people to view their own passup percentage in the character information window.

Allowing you to see your effective Loyalty and Leadership, in addition to your base, is something that we've discussed. We'd like to get it into the game although it may not come in February.

[sylphia]

Jin, I wont even bother to touch on the childishness of that post that ou directed towards me and others; it is beneath me.

I dont see that anyone has "won" anything. A so-called "exploit" that never WAS an exploit is being removed; the allegiance system has always functioned exactly the way it was designed to do; it cannot do otherwise. XP pass-up worked EXACTLY the same for folks that chained or didnt chain. What made the difference was really the number of folks involved in it.

By removing the ability to chain in the future, nothing has been done to remove the inflated toons that you were complaining about in the firts place. Those toons are stil here, still sitting at lvl 200, still able to do whatever it is they were doing before the nerf. The ONLY thing that has been accomplished is to cut the legs out from under the folks who would like to compete with them who havent used the system as long as they have.

The change in no way makes you "get to know your vassals" or talk to your vassals. All it does is encourage the same XP-greedy person to recruit more ppl directly under them, rather than in a line that benefits more ppl. There is nothing in the new coding that requires you to be in any way more interactive with your vassals. That is purely a social choice made by the individual--just like it has always been.

And as some clever folks have already pointed out in posts on other boards, all this change REALLY does is make fully active chains more productive. You dont get as much xp from folks further down the line, but you still get an appreciable amount. And more to the point, you get WAY more from the guy sworn to you. In effect, if I go kill a monkey, my patron gets essentially the same experience as if HE killed it, too. Even though he is standing in town talking to a shopkeeper. If we are out hunting monkeys together, HIS patron gets it form him, too. So chains that had any toons inthem that didnt hunt will receive less. But the ones that were already active anyway will receive huge amounts now. And those are the ones that were getting powerleveld anyway: the ones that were totally active.

This doesnt "fix" your so-called problem. It just emphasizes that if you chain, make sure everyone in the chqin stays active, or they get kicked out. Boy that sure improved the social aspects of allegiances, didnt it?

My stance has always been: They arent hurting anyone, leave them alone. I dont really care if they make 10 times as much XP as I do.

Your stance has always been: They are making WAY too much XP. This isnt right. By god, NERF that chain and remove the bonuses they are getting!.

The result is that chains are still just as viable, if not more-so. The ones that powerlevel like mad will be essentially unaffected. So my goal of getting them "left alone" is effectively lost. Your goal of "stopping their Xp flow" is also lost.

Personally I dont equate 2 losses to a win on either side.

Meanwhile, the Macros run rampant. Seems to me that they should have been the focus all along, and left chains out of it. Nothing really changed there.

[Lilkinsly]

Ibn,
Do you plan to lower the cost on training leadership?

At least let people have a couple of months notice so they can get gems and swap toons if they want.

[Ibn]

Originally posted by Theran_Bakagin
How will this effect the 4 year established allegiance I have currently... with that person being currently stalled and inactive... My only active follower along that line is below him.. and CURRENTLY I see almost 90% of what he sends up... at this point I need some 5 levels to catch him (97 he's 105) ...

how much am I likely to lose or gain by removing him from where he is.. and moving him under me directly (assuming I can ever catch his main character)?

Well, he is at most passing up 44% of what he earns, and you are getting 90% of that. So you're getting about 40% of what he makes, yes?

If you swear him under you directly, and optimize return, you'd get about 90% of what he makes. So much more.

The big difference is that now:

1) Your old direct vassal is getting nothing and

2) The person that you are sworn to is now getting about 9% of what your vassal makes, whereas before he was getting about the same 40% that you were.

I THINK this is all correct.

[sylphia]

Ibn, please reply to this portion of my first post. I feel this is important, and we are still far enough out from the prop that it could be fixed before it goes live.

Changes to the ID screen. Removing leadership/loyalty doesnt bother me; like I said its never been ahigh priority to me. But the addition of a toons DoB is a VERY bad idea. Frankly, its no one's business how long my toon has been in-game, or how long it took me to get to lvl X. If I want them to know, I will tell them. Giving the players the ability to see, at a glance, if a toon is pre-chain or post-chain wil lonly create an unnecessary rift. Anti's seeing a pre-chain toon at lvl 126 will assume they chained their way up to it, whether they did or not. Old timers seeing a recent-birth toon will assume they are a noob and their views are unimportant. There is no GOOD reason to add this. All it will do is foster hate and grudges. Honestly, WHY would we need to see anyone else's DoB?

[particle_ac]

We players have proven ourselves time and time again to be rather... fickle. Several times over have so many of us announced our disgust, leaving, or what have you only to accept, or return.

I do not care to go into too much detail, but this change, I, as a long term player, do support.

It is for the longterm good of AC, as Ibn put it, this is early in the game, four years for this great game is nothing... we have many more to go.

If you are going to leave now without at least seeing it come Febuary, then you are fool and I am glad to see you go.

If you are going to announce to the world that Turbine never listens to its players when so many times before they have tweaked their changes to our desires, then you are a child or at the very least, one with a poor memory.

If your going to complain that now you can't create for yourself an ultra-uber trademule, all I can say is "too bad".

Not everyone needs an ultra-uber trademule 2000 on their account, I trained bow on my mule and leveled it alone... everything is optimal (attribs & skills) for its skills cept weapon tinkering and my main has that. (thats three tinkering skills and all trades) It isn't an ultra-uber trademule 2000, nor is it really even uber, but it is a nice trademule and can do most of my tinkering at a mere level 50. <-- Took me but a couple days too, 16 hours total, and that was at least a year and a half ago (missives would give ya an instant level 26, thats a niiice start). I could level it more if I needed, but I haven't needed to.

An ultra-uber trademule 2000 is an allegiance creation, and is NOT intended for everyone. Get together a few people who happen to be leveling to new chars and swear em' to it, it should be no trouble at all; especially at 90%. <--- Even small allegiances could do this!

As for a level gap, as a player of four and a half years (August '99, Beta II) whose highest is a mere level 83 and whose in-game time is too great to name without being embarassed, I'm alright with it. I do not play this game for a number, I play this game for the people and the dynamics of it. If you cannot find felllows or the like willing to let ya go with them, perhaps then... you're hanging out with the wrong people. <-- People I hang around with would probably force me to come with them at gun point if they could... lol :)

And finally, if you're going to leave or whine or what have you because the price of the game has gone up... tough. They should have raised it a year ago, this is pretty much the standard price now days (AC costs money to update and maintain, and such costs can rise, you all get this, right?)... not to mention they've got a new server and an expansion pack on the way... do you think thats cheap!? <-- When it comes to price, we've been spoiled, lets not act like brats now cause they can no longer keep it at $9.95.

Anywho, yeah, I support these changes, won't go into too much detail, cause right now... none of you will listen, no, none will listen till half-way through Febuary or March... which is alright I suppose so long as Turbine doesn't take your current rants seriously... cause thats all they are. <-- Has anyone stopped to think this (passup changes and price increase) could be step one of a MUCH larger plan (past announced expansion) regarding AC's future?

Well... I've got some things to attend to in-game and in RL, so till next time, later.

[Aeroflinn]

IMHO,

I didnt read all the posts and Apollogize if this has been mentioned already.

Since you are upgrading this why not give all templates the leadership skill. That way if we choose to spend experience on it, just like the loyalty skill we can.

I honestly cant understand why you would have one w/o the other in the base template. If I choose to be loyal to someone, shouldnt even be a skill. Spending points into it is waste if its really or going to be based on how long I stay with a patron.

Get rid of Loyalty and replace it with Leadership.

:D

[mythrus]

Thanks this is a change that has been a long time coming. As a Monarch I will be pleased to see the upcoming changes also.

P.S. I also don't think people need to see the DoB and time played on a toon.

[morrigan]

Sangria posts:
Seriously? I think you are wrong. I agree - some players will leave. But will the ones who quit be from the real player database or will they be the chainers and CM's?

Actually, I am one of those players who is anti-ucm, as well as anti-chain, etc. I am leaving when my subscriptions end this month. For one simple reason, it increase is fine however, I do not see enough being done to give me a reason to stay. XP nerf is ok, but it has always been part of the game dynamic. I wish they would have looked at and responded with something to the things that are outside what the game it that is in the game now. To me, this does not justify an increase. A server and xp nerf?

Sylphia posts:

Meanwhile, the Macros run rampant. Seems to me that they should have been the focus all along, and left chains out of it. Nothing really changed there.

And if that would have been that type of news along with the increase, it would have made the difference in the world to me and my accounts.

So, I play the waiting game and go somewhere else while I watch, wait and hope.

[Geomancer]

This isn't the most ideal place for this, but since I'm not allowed to start a new thread:

All times are GMT -8 hours. The time now is 04:39 PM

There's no such thing as 04:39PM. It's either 4:39PM, 1639L, or 0439 (which is 4:39AM).

Looking at '04:39 PM' is about as much fun as playing AC2 and looking at a font that uses a capital I for a one.

Thanks.

Oh and to make this on topic, this change shouldn't have been made this late in the game's history, but oh well.

[Tiltowait]

Originally posted by Aeroflinn
IMHO,

Get rid of Loyalty and replace it with Leadership.

:D

Oh no, you're not getting rid of your loyalty. We need to see how loyal you are to your subjects. :p

[Havagu]

Questions for ya Ibn,

If loyalty and leadership are no longer going to be based on Self.
Then will your base in those be 0?
And if so, not having leadership trained, how much XP can I expect to earn from my vassels with a leadership of nothing?
And will it still cost 4 skillpoints to train leadership?
Or will it become a free skill like loyalty?

[Gengis]

It seems we are left with few choices...move to the new server where all things are created equal, live with the fact that you can't push xp up to mules / multiple accounts, or leave now before something else is changes that completely nerfs us again.

I dont' get much passup as it is. I am okay with it, but i have similar issues as others with leveling trademules, etc. I have to decide if I am willing to start all over on a new server, or just live with the fact that I can only play one toon on MT now. It makes no sense for me to try and untrain / train all the skills I would need to be able to hunt my mules. I can't level them anymore. That is lost to me.

I don't mind progress, but change sucks. I don't like it when I am given a set of parameters to operate within, I then put hours upon hours of my life (real life hours) working in those paramenters, only to have it pulled out from beneath me. I get no compensation for time lost. I get no restitution for the toons that are useless now. I get a 3$ a month increase ;-) Nice work Turbine!

I have to really consider leaving AC now, or giving up my marriage and starting a new toon on the new server. I think this whole idea sucks. How can you make sweeping changes like this when so many people have invested endless amounts of time into this game?

:confused:

[Mithan]

I played AC1 for 3 years, then quit in April of 2002. One of the main reasons I quit was because the XP Chains took a LOT out of the game. Levels essentially meant nothing anymore, and neither did the "l33t" equipment you found because of that high level.


Now all we need is a new server to open up, and I think that a lot of people would return to AC1. I would definitly love to give this game another shot, since after playing it for 3 years, it is definitly my most favorite.

[Zenato]

Turbine you just lost $30 a month.

Your game is way too boring to not be in a chain. Who really wants to kill the same monster over and over a million times. I don't play enough to be a good patron and I don't have the time to stand in a dungeon for hours upon hours, days upon days, months upon months to get to the next level. You have always catered to the minority of players who play more hours per day then they really should.

If only you had addressed the REASON people are in chains instead of focusing on trying to remove chains you'd still have $30 a month.

If you thought UCM'ing was bad before, you've just now made it even harder for people to get to higher levels that now they'll just be UCM'ing all the more.

Goodbye!

[Gafoon]

Originally posted by Ibn
Well, he is at most passing up 44% of what he earns, and you are getting 90% of that. So you're getting about 40% of what he makes, yes?

If you swear him under you directly, and optimize return, you'd get about 90% of what he makes. So much more.


I THINK this is all correct.

There's one BIG difference - he can't swear to you because he's 5 levels above you!!! The best you can do is to invert the patron vassal relationship.

This is why I'm so upset with this change.

[gaandar]

While we are talking about advancement and such, I'll throw out an idea I had a year ago.

During the monthly prop, give each toon enough exp to get to the next level. This would simulate a kind of maturing process. For active toons it would not mean that much, but for mules and such, it would be a good boost.

I would also suggest that on the anniversary of each toon's creation, they be given an additional skill credit. This would add value to keeping a toon around.

[Chubasco]

I agree 100% with Geomancer. This basically rewards those who have macroed, and exploited xp chains the longest. They now have the levels, and those who don't already basically never will.

The lack of Microsoft and Turbine to enforce the Code of Conduct until late in this games life always has and continues to benefit those that exploit and cheat within this game. This is way too little, way too late!!

Could turbine post some stats or at least a general ratio of the number of long term subscribers vs. new ones? I for one have been playing since beta and have paid approximately the following on this game:

subscriptions: $457
AC: $49.95
DM: $49.95
Total: $557

This change would prevent me from being able to level my 2nd and 3rd characters as I would like and will most likely cause me to quit AC once and for all. It will be interesting to see how much revenue is lost vs. gained due to this.

In fact, Turbine might be better served to implement such a change in an update after the next expansion pack since all cancelled subscriptions will now also translate into a lost additional retail purchase.

[Kaillus]

This will be a total failure unless you make 3 more changes.

1. Make Leadership a free skill. (give back 4 credits to those with it trained now, and 6 to those who speced it).

2. Don't allow loyalty or leadership to be specialized.

3. Remove the level requirement for swearing loyalty to someone, so higher levels can swear to lower levels.

At this point and time with the stated changes, those 3 suggestions can only help AC.

IBN, I read you said there are no plans to change the requirement. I highly suggest you change those plans to allow for it. It's negligence on Turbine's side to not reconsider it.

You allow it in AC2 I believe, if I recall correctly.

#3 is the only way to fix the Allegiance structures after your said changes. I can not even comprend the lack of consideration that change seems to have received. There better be a darn good reason why its not being done.

[Drakier]

Gaandar.. I actually like that idea....

each month no matter what, chars would be ABLE (not have to) gain a level. that would mean that chars can advance just for being there...

and the skillcredit is pretty cool too.. to encourage people to stick around with chars, and not re-roll the flavor-of-the-month every week.

But I still stand by my last post. I'd love to see the allegiance level requirement removed. Would help out a lot of people, with little to no bad side-effects.

[Geomancer]

Or instead of completely removing it, allowing me to swear my level 177 Mage to your level 1 reroll, how about making it so that you can swear to anyone within 25 levels of you, or so, up to 126.

[Helbereth]

I still fail to see what's wrong with the existing system. It's not an exploit to have a chain. It takes a lot of organization in all seriousness.

People that don't want to chain are welcome to level/quest/hunt/do whatever they please. I don't see what the problem really is with some of us wanting the ability to hunt for cool stuff and not be worried about dying every 5 minutes because we lack the health/resistances/melee defense to withstand the assault from cabalists or titans. I used the chain to my advantage. I wanted to be able to solo in the extreme hunting zones with a better survival rate.

I never UCMed and Ive never changed monarchies (the fact that the best chain on TD exists within my monarchy was probably a factor). As it is right now I have 2 toons who are able to hunt solo in extreme areas with little trouble. To some that's enough, but I also like experimenting with templates. I've made 8 different toons across 2 accounts. All of them are different in some way and I've put a lot of effort into producing a miniature chain through which I'm able to level all of them at the same time. I like seeing the potential in a template and IMHO the only way to do that is to get them to 100+.

Using a miniature chain I was able to place one toon at the bottom and level him exclusively for a few hours a day thereby sending xp through the whole troop. I hate to think how long that would take now that you've completely nerfed passup.


Thanks Turbine

(I am unhappy)

[Minamoto]

"There are those who have passionately campaigned for a change to the system"

Took awhile, but this is exactly the system alot of us have talked to Turbine about. It's nice to see it FINNALLY being implimented.


I have a few comments however.

This new system will basicly screw over trade characters. I don't know many trade mules that can actually fight and produce XP for themselves. After buying all your tinkers/Trade skills, you are basicly left with nothing to let yourself hunt.

I agree, there needs to be a MASSIVE overhaul in how trade skills are done. I would love to sit and actualy craft usable items for people, but it's impossible to advance @ that the way the system works now.

Pretty much EVERY other major RPG out there has a viable trade crafting system, so people can actually PLAY those characters. Unless they change the fundimaental structer of Trade/Tinker skills, It basicly destroys the possibity of making a viable trade character.

As for Re-rolls, It will be easier. XP PAssup from yourself to patron is a set Minimum 25%, instead of the 9% Currently. The only people not benifiting from this is people 2 steps up the "chain". Basicly, if you want a vassal and you want XP from them, you have to ACTUALLY, have someone playing under you, instead of having it all filter up to you like it does now.

It rewards people who ACTUALLY play, and not those who just stick a character somewere and forget about it.

Really, Trade Skills/mules are my only concern with the system change.

[Ashake_MT]

I think this will be very interesting on many fronts. Although I dislike chains intensely, I understand why some people want to be in them. My biggest problem with them is the fact that we tend to have a lot of 126 players with little idea of how the game is played (I actually had a 126 player last week ask me where to turn in an eviscerator pincer!).

Sure, we'll probably lose some players who feel the chains are the only way to go ... but I'm betting we see a lot more RETURN that have left since the xp chains became "the thing" to do to level quickly. Yes, spending time in dungeons isn't a great deal of fun - but I've met some very nice people in dungeons while hunting in fellows - and although the leveling in there was kinda boring - I'd not trade those new friends for ANYTHING!!! :)

I just hope in the zeal to improve AC1 ... that you folks at Turbine don't go OVERBOARD and try to turn our beloved game into AC2. We (many of us) tried AC2 and found our way back to the game that we love. Please do not make sweeping changes to make our game imitate AC2 ... we were the first ... and for those of us who continue to stay here - we are the BEST.

Thank you Turbine for making the commitment to keep our game alive for us. I have five accounts of my own, and hope to be a resident in Dereth for a long time to come ...

[Aelric]

Now if you can find a way to ban all 3rd party apps from the new world we can actually really play the game. Getting tired of worlds full of maxed out toons.

[Nunki]

Timing, as they say, is everything.

I certainly hope that you aren't basing this and future decisions on the Microsoft / Turbine poll that was "taken" in 2001.

People did ask for changes in the chain system then. No one answered. People did ask for changes in the CoC regarding UCMing. They came slowly and weren't enforced.

Since that time your player base has changed. Those of us who crowed for such things before have either thrown in the wet towel they looted off a water golem or adapted to the games parameters as they are.

Now the rules are going to be changed again.

After working hard to understand and utilize the existing system we now see you are saying that it's time for a change and, furthur, you admit that it's long overdue. You should have taking the time to poll your subscribers again to see where their feelings lay. I know mine have changed since the original questions were posed. And I know that the reason they changed is because Turbine failed to tackle the issues that we asked you to address in the poll you presented.

It's not too late to repoll your fans and make sure that this isn't a wrong move.

[Icemist]

I agree with whoever said this is either very brave of Turbine or they're incredibly stupid, I'm not sure which at the minute though...

I've used XP chains for a small amount of my time playing AC which is almost 4 years now, personally I've nothing against them, I think they are a good thing in a way as I think it provides a kind of bonding mechanism for an Allegance, not saying that this is the only thing that keeps an allegance together because its not, there are many things which do that, but it plays a major role in many allegances. I don't know whether I agree with the "Strengthening the Patron-Vassal relationship" thing, basically because people in Chains would usually still consider they're patron to be the same person, they may also have other toons sworn to that person, but more because nowadays, especially with large guilds relationships are on a more friendly basis with other guild members including your Patron. The old Patron-Vassal idea of supplying weapons/armor/cash/advice etc doesn't really stand as well anymore because the majority of people playing now are experienced players who can supply most, if not all of this stuff on their own, there are very few newbies to the game, mainly because its so difficult to buy a copy nowadays. I'm not saying nobody needs help and advice anymore because we're all experts however the level of help people require nowadays is alot less than it used to be 3 years ago, apart from bod recoveries and quests etc, which most monarchies provide a service for anyway.

I can see and understand the argument against them in that some people feel that they have to join one in order to keep up which is true to a certain degree, I think we've seen recently a lot of game content which is developed specifically around the fact that there are a lot of very high level players on the servers now and they need content suitable to their level and alot (not all though) have reached this level through XP chains, so new players may feel they need to join an XP chain to experiance the higher level content.

I don't agree with people who are posting comments such as "At last, Turbine are listening to what the players want!" as I believe the number of people who want XP chains and those who don't are roughly the same. I do believe Turbine's hands have been tied on this for quite some time now and telling us that its just time for a change due to how the game has developed is just a polite way of saying "Those *(Nasty People)* at Microsft have been able to veto every attempt to do it until now", I think MS saw it as a major attraction for many people as they are very popular. Turbine have probably weighed this up very carefully, and in the end the whingers won :) , ok thats maybe unfair but you know what I mean.

I think it'll be intersting to see what happens over the next few months, my own opinion is that it is a little late in the day for this, your still going to have the "Elite" group of level 126+ players, so it doesn't solve the problem with people "getting left behind" and now they definately don't have a way of catching up quickly, and the competition thing about "My character was made after xp chains and I'm level blahh" is just rubbish (to me anyway) but I can advance perfectly well without the Chains.

It does however make me wonder what is next on the "Whingers Hit List", in my opinion people are always moaning about something and if its not going to be XP chains anymore what will it be about. There have been numerous arguments over time about 3rd party tools like Decal and Buffbots, so now that focus will be taken off the XP chains, what will be next to go?

Not trying to start a flame war :) just giving my opinion (I think) and I apologies for any typo's, it's 2am here and I'm tired.

Anywhoo, thats my 2p for the night :)

Nighty Night All :)


Icemist

[GraceMolloy]

Man .. what a way to break news to people ... get em all hyped up on an expansion and a purchase from M$ (the Nazi dictators that they are) Oh and by the way .... we're changing the entire foundation of the allegiance/monarchy system that has been in place since 1999. Along with that we are going to screw over anyone with a trade/tinker mule b/c we never managed to get that system working properly either. But HEY! You all will understand. Especially you old timers :D NOT!

what a bunch of (foolishness). If you had done this THREE years ago maybe .. but now?

I started Dec '99 and the game has gone through a LOT since then. Some good .. some bad .. then this.

All my ex AC friends ask me why I still play. I had even talked one of them into comeing back when the expansion came out.
Now that looks HIGHLY unlikely.

I played your way for 2.5 years .. decided that was only giving me carple tunnel. Not to meantion a former Monarch with a God complex and a BAD case of p.m.s. So I left my "Old School" Traditional monarchy with a heavy heart, not sure if I'd keep playing at all b/c I was no longer around my friends.

Along comes the best chain on Thistledown ... Now I am part of a HUGE allegiance of good, fun, enjoyable people. I have REAL vassals now beyond just the chain. I never would have met/befriended these people without it.

You all are seeking to destroy that.

Thanks ... And I WILL be considering wether or not to keep either of my 2 accounts.

[Golem Tank]

ok i understand why this is happening but as i own 3 accts i will be cancelling 2 of them i have my own personal mini chain and if i cant use it the way i have i have no use for the other 2 accts so how does turbine win if i cancel 2 accts what to say others do the same this is a bussiness and with a loss like this on avg. if 10000 ppl play in all worlds as u see in the AC window and half have multi accts and they do the same will AC live thur it AC2 bombed out so this is turbine honey tree why burn it down in hopes of making some major changes old phase" if it works leave it alone"
welll i hope it does but i wont pay for it lol as of feb. u loose 2 accts happy happy joy joy

[Chipsky]

What? /\

[-Strike-]

Osmethne.

[tzantali]

I agree--I would really like to see this on the new server ONLY. Those who CHOOSE to go there can, but don't take the CHOICE away from the people who have been playing for years [and in some ways lump players who worked hard for 126 into the chain whore category].

[Arthell]

Just to echo many others before:

Thank You

:D

[Dark_Omen]

The timing of this is just plain uncanny. I was about to announce my retirement from AC, and you have just set the date for me. My new job, and real world relationship await. Thank you Turbine for 4 years of pure enjoyment.

~~DO

*edit*

What is your stance on *giving away* 5 accounts? No sense in throwing away 4 years of hard work.

[Xalios]

I am going to have to agree that evaluating game-wide or server-wide implementation would be best.

I do not, and have never chained. However, I recognize the disadvantage I am and will ALWAYS be at in PK, hunting, EVERYTHING..... IF you take it away on the existing servers. I understand you want to change the play dynamic for the better, for the long term. But please, make sure you don't ruin the game for those who are doing a bit of casual chaining and who dont want to change servers, and would like to stay relatively competitive.

Perhaps implementing this change ONLY on the new server. If you would like, doing the same for a new PK world would also be great.

This is the only way for a truly level playing field to exist. Otherwise, you simply hand the other server over to the macro'rs and XP chainers FOREVER.

[Bit O Honey]

Yes!!!

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! TURBINE!!;) ;)

it's about time. :D

[Icemist]

OK just one quick request before I go to bed....

Can anyone who is posting the effect of "Well done Turbine, this will make the game so much better" please explain why it makes the game better? I've stated in a previous post that I can understand the argument against XP chains, in that people can "get left beind" and some people feel they need to join them to keep up, but removing the Chains does not remove the results of over three years of XP Chains, its a bit like the old bolting the gate after the horse has excaped line.

The relationship I have had with my Patron has always been very good (he even sent me an eChristmas card :) ) whether I've been in a chain or not, I suppose it will improve now that he stands to make 90% of what I earn now hehe, if I've read this correctly, but I do fail to see what you all think is going to be so much better? Is it just the smug satisfaction that you can log on and think "Hehe, someone did't log on to X Million today". There has to be more to it than that because at the end of the day that person can log on to the smug satisfaction of "Hehe, you're never going to get to my level" Fair enough, no-body plays for level alone, but it is nice to see all the fireworks when you level, and it would be nice to have some max'd out stats at some stage :)

It does take a hell of a lot of work to organise and maintain an XP Chain, on top of everything else this does seem like a bit of a slap in the chops to all the guys and gals who do all the work arranging allegiance tree's and chains.

But anyway, I would like some people to explain their reasons as to why it makes the game better, rather than just pettiness.


Again, apologies for the typos, its now 3am :)


Nighty night All (really:) )

Edited: Can people please stop putting Chain users and Macroers in the same boat, I've used chains but I don't and never have macroed other than trade skill macroes

Icemist

[Herrigal Eugen]

I'm a player from January of 2000. I've played two characters really, 2.5 if you count the trade mule. One of my characters is level 85 and the other is somewhere around 80. Obviously, I am not in this for the xp. In fact, my first character (level 80) just got melee defense. Talk about a challenge to play her!

As for xp chains, more power to them. Most of the people I know that got seriously involved in xp chains complain of boredom within 6 months, and frequently are gone within a year. Their actions remove the challenge of the game so they either re-roll or take a vacation for a while.

Do the xp chains hurt anyone? Since the game is designed for fun, and these people clearly get their fun from the xp chain, I'd say it's worthwhile to them. I get frustrated sometimes when I can't go on a quest, but I'm a big girl and I am in charge of my own feelings of inadequacy.

I will say that these people who get so involved in the game are wonderful sources of information. They may not have done the particular dungeon themselves, but they usually know someone, who knows someone else, etc who can help.

Me? I'm a lousy patron. My hours are wacked with some weeks I get to play 25 hours and other times, I don't log on for three weeks. I am still more or less in the same monarchy I joined 4 years ago. Many of the people no longer play AC, but they still join us on the bboard. Occaisionlly, they will re-activate their accounts for a month or so to play with us, then retreat back to their RL. Where will we place these dear friends in our monarchy? Half the time, the way you know one of them is back is because you suddenly get a burst of xp from an unexpected quarter. Then I can go ferret them out, set up time in-game to chat and renew old acquaintances. Sometimes they get excited and stay for a while; sometimes they just join for the day.

So what's my point? My point is that while I understand people wanting to do something about xp chains, it seems a tad paternalistic to me. I don't have easy access to a high-level trade mule - my RL gets in the way of most times others hunt or are available. Half the people I hunt/talk with live in Norway or some other time-zone difficult place. With the current system in place, I can gradually level my trade mule. With the new system, I can level my trade mule, but only because I have multiple accounts. It will probably be faster, maybe, but he's at that point in his skills where everything costs 15M to raise which means I need to hunt for about 5 hours for every point he raises everything. That will be roughly 1-4 weeks per point, the way I hunt. It just means that my two bow characters will just have to wait much, much longer to get imbued bows.

How to fix trade characters? I had a couple of thoughts, but I'm not a programmer, so they are all probably exceptionally difficult to implement...

How about making it so that characters who have not trained a killing skill (other than racial) can get mondo bonuses for any sucessful completion of a trade or skill? This means that my archer continues to get crappy xp for making arrows, but my trade mule gets more. It does mean that I will macro my trade mule, but trade macroing is easy to do in private where it doesn't load down the servers. Of course, my tinker skills will remain in the toilet.

How about characters who have not spec'd a killing skill are exempt from level restrictions on pledging? Perhaps it could be limited to within 25 levels but only for characters who are clearly mules?

Could we make some flag for a mule character which would allow them to garner more-than-average xp from great- grandchildren?

Could xp passup (the current system) be modified so that perhaps my patron receives 70%, my grand-patron receives 35% and my great-grandpatron receives 30%? It's not perfect, but it is a compromise. It allows me to get some passup back to my account but limits the extraordinary amount of xp magnification currently present in the system.

If the idea is to encourage people to create "family" monarchies, eliminate the level restrictions on swearing above level 50. That way my friends who play 80 hours a week can still be close to me. No, it isn't about the xp, but the xp should be a deterrent.

I did level Herri about 10 levels from the xp from my other character (and my husband's), and I have to say, it was nice. I set a goal, achieved it, and now I can take her out again. It's taken me over 9 months to get this xp for her. I have been eagerly awaiting her getting enough skill points to take melee defense so now I can try her in some areas for 60-80 rather than the 20-40 areas. With this new xp system in place, she would only have received about 10% of my xp, and I wouldn't burden another person with leveling my character when I cannot do the same for their character. Maybe by this time next year, she'd be playable, but it would probably take another year and a half.

I like the idea, but I am not sure this is the best, well-thought out implementation of a solution. Perhaps this could just wait a few months before you implement it? Maybe just put it on the new world for the first month it comes out and then propagate it to all worlds the following month?

I like AC. I'm not leaving. I have faith that Turbine, and it's employees, are doing what they think is best. Sometimes I like it, sometimes I don't, but Turbine has always been willing to say "Oops" as well as "We told you it would be ok." Thanks, Turbine for trying to solve the problem of xp magnification. Whatever happens, I remain convinced that you are listening to all of us and will keep in mind our concerns and praises as you contemplate changes to AC.

[Nexus-HG]

perhaps to REALLY make this whole leadership/loyalty thing fair is to just remove it ENTIRELY!

Give everyone the same set % that they will passup - recieve.

I mean, if you are removing it to prevent chaining and massive exploits of XP, then just remove the skills... Give us the credits back.

I mean, if we are gonna screw over the system that people have been getting free rides off of, lets not allow it to be possible to maximize passup through raising the skill as originally intended by the developers.

Stick it next to the fishing and chess point system and just give us all the same % range of passup

[archer of sjet]

Do you guys have a marketing degree? Like try giving us the good and then the bad? Or at least give us some hint of some good things to come for monarchs?

I feel real sorry for them right now.

[Ionia]

The changes do not affect our monarchy greatly. We have had chains on and off as there is interest in them. However this new system seems flawed to me. It allows for a new kind of chaining to take place in allegiances who are set up solely for xp and will encourage widespread macroing

Look at this

Saturday Morning Goo arrives at the mansion. It is his day on top. The 8 people who are to be his platform arrive and swear to him. Out they go and hit VoD.

Xp is not terrific but they are getting 20M each in the fellow, apart from Goo who is making MIN 60M/hour (His 20M plus a min 5M/hour from each of his vassals)

Now keep this structure in place for a week or two. VoD the following time/week with them on 50% passup gets him to 100M/hour. 75% at 140M/hour

Wow not many xp chains do this well even on a good day. Let’s face it, the chain allegiances are gonna BLOOM with this new system. It won’t take more than a few weeks to max a skill with macros running under them, then they can rotate positions and push the next in line.

The player-focused monarchies miss out. Those traditionally who earnt passed up xp for providing community services (such as monarchs or tinkers) go without unless they take active vassals away from under others in their community.

[Deadeye]

Could you please give a month reprieve on pledging lower levels to higher levels to allow people to restructure thier monarchies.

Just allow people to pledge to someone 10 levels below them for one month. I would love to flatten out my mini-chain to I do not have 3 levels between my main (level 108) and my main mule (100)

Currently have from top to bottom

Craftmule (Level 100)
Weapon/Armor Tinkerer (Level 103)
Magic Item Tinker - Buff-Bot (level 105)
Main (level 108)

I also have storage mules (Levels 6-40) pledged to maximize passup.

Now after the change My craftmule will get less than 1% of the experience generated by my main, where they where getting 30%. Without someway of fixing the chain the Tinkerer and Craftmule are for all practical reasons dead, Since they and the buff bot are incapable of generating experience themselves.

To add insult to this, is that if they where level 126+ they could freely realign as needed. I expect a big gap in the ones that make level 126 before this patch and the ones that are under 126. The previous poster already pointed an exploit of the new method.

[Icemist]

Herrigal Eugen - Thats probably one of the best posts I've read in this thread - Well put :)


OK I'm really going to bed now....:)

Icemist

[-Strike-]

I garuntee you the subscription fee increase and the recent changes tie into eachother. Increase the subscription to help compensate for the lost accounts from the news on the experience chain changes, and help fund the new server, which the Dev chat( believe, correct me if I am wrong please) stated they weren't planning on doing for a while. Then stated how much on average the hardware itself costs. It's all marketing.

[Meri]

Originally posted by Jin Saotome

NOW YOU HAVE RESPONSIBILITIES!!!!



I have responsibilities, thank you very much Jin. I (along with some very good members of my council) am responsible for an entire monarchy. There may be a "newbie" who's a great-great-great-great-great (etc) vassal who needs a sword... or some armor... or just a little nudge in the right direction to get started hunting/questing on his own... and we take care of them. Then there are the quests/events we organize that help keep the game fun for so many... in addition to making sure that members of the allegiance get to know each other, no matter what level they may be. Simple quests, difficult ones... all of those are handled by members of our allegiance... for the benefit of ALL the allegiance... not just our direct vassals.

Luckily, I'm not experience-hungry, or with this wondrous nerf, I'd say "forget this noise... support your own vassals." But, I'm not like that. I want what's best for everyone who is sworn under me.... from level 5 to level 126+... including the mules, the crafters, and whoever else has had faith in me and decided to keep my name.

I still don't know what the future will bring... but I do know one thing... your statement of:

This new system does not change vassals into exp machines! It turns them into people you actually have to talk to and hunt with!

is naive at best. I can see it already that people will be "selling" themselves as vassals because they can (with their nice UCMs) produce more experience than the "traditional" vassal. I guess it will give a whole new definition to "chain whore," now, won't it?

[Ionia]

well put Meri

[Jin Saotome]

You forget Meri, with Microsoft out of the way Turbine gets to do WHATEVER they want via macros and UCM's. Do you honestly think Turbine will just dismiss UCM's here? You all are thinking in the present, it's time you thought a little ahead.
These are going to be MORE CHANGES than just what you see here. Even I can see that, and I'm pretty "now-minded".

I activly hunt down UCM's, and helped get the Borg-of-something guy get banned by tracking down his macros on the OP plains. It was really fun, like a hunt! I hope more people get up in arms like I am, and hunt down the UCM's to get them banned. Not only does it get rid of the CoC violators, it frees up valuable housing for more worthy players! I got 2 vassals cottages this way, fully furnished from a UCM account. Trust me, Turbine takes UCMs very seriously, this I've seen with my own two eyes.

Now that we've covered "the sky is falling" ordeal, we as players spread the word that AC is going to be renewed shortly, and for people to watch for its return. Right now I'm taking to my friends at the local GameStop (who also work there) and we're talking about having an AC roll-out party in the store at the mall when the game is re-released (or the expansion hits). Big things in the windows aren't enough here! We're going all out!

[Hamlit]

"I activly hunt down UCM's, and helped get the Borg-of-something guy get banned by tracking down his macros on the OP plains. It was really fun, like a hunt!"

Wow! Sounds like a blast doing Turbine's job for them! Gee, can I pay MORE for that privelege?

I, for one, intend to kick the dying dog where it lays until it learns how to obey simple commands. Lesson one - don't take a c r a p on the master who has been feeding you for the past 4 years! You learn how to do a new trick BEFORE you get a treat is the way it's supposed to go, not the other way around.

[Eledemar_SC]

One step closer to a better game, keep up the good work Turbine. I will either move to the new server, or restart my one guild on solclaim due to these changes.

Yes - I UCM'd when it was not a voilation of CoC.
Yes - I have taken part of xp chains.

And now, I will be able to play a decent game with decent friends and not have to worry about maxed our chain players achieving the monthly goals first.. sorta, -->

<--, the next step would be a nice lawsuit to anyone who posts patch news about the current patch until the current patch is over. That way people actually have to visit their private clan sites, or OMG even visit the town crier themselves to find out the hints of the new content.

Good job once again.

[Rauth]

Sounds intriguing. It will definitely shake up the community dynamic. IMO, sounds like more people may be encouraged to play as opposed to checking in every 30 days to pay maintenance and assign xp.

I fail to see the real issues with mules, but then since the skill spec/sellback is available I haven't seen any real issues with char types,or with playing with new, unusual, or downright silly templates anyway.

And, quite plainly, I dont see how either side of this argument in the forums up to this point actually 'won' anything. Just my opinion. That might indicate it is actually a compromise. Most unusual, and welcome, from the dev/admin team of a MMORPG.

[ivoryjohn]

I just turned 126, without benefit of a chain (actually, I am the pusher of my own 3 man chain), and now I feel as though I am going to be branded as a "pp126" just because I didn't wait till February. Can I get a roll back?

And speaking of the mini chains, any chance you could keep the passup to the grand patron and then let it roll off? The 3 man chain concept existed before the xp chains as a method to help level our alchemists.

[Kesrick]

I think you're being a bit too harsh on grand-patron xp passup. It will really mess up a few tinkerers and tradeswomen I know.
I also think the date of birth is ridiculous. Using your skewed logic, anyone born before the February patch will be considered a chain-leveler. I don't understand what one's character creation date has to do with whether one was in an xp chain or earned every point of xp with no vassals. Ludicrous.
I can't recall any of your player base ever suggesting that the d.o.b. be added when you ID another player.
Another bright idea from the marketing department?

[Chipsky]

While I appreciate the intent of this change, there are some inherent faults from which the player-base will have to recover.

"IBN, your company just decided that only people at the 'bottom' get raises, because you, as their manager, don't make an *actual* contribution... Not to worry, we'll put another desk in your office and give you more lines on the phone in lieu of the money."

Being a monarch takes a substantial amount of time and effort... those 'at the top' with me/us [my direct vassals], for the most part, are "deputies" and help manage clan activities and organize... there needs to be a way to 'reward' the players *and* the leaders for their allegiance...

All about the curves...
The current system is flawed - a graph shows a sudden drop after direct patron and a slow taper - parabolic anomaly. The proposed [slated for institution] adjustment - a graph shows the XP dropping like stocks in October of '87. A more 'fair' curve would taper quickly (grandparent gets ~20%) and taper to 1% at the top - a smooth curve.

Monarchies will disassociate rank and XP. Villas make this possible and easy...

I look forward to your 'host of changes' and hope that consideration is given to allegiances as a whole. I don't stay in this game solely for hunting... or quests... or PK... its about the people who I have befriended.

[Meri]

Originally posted by Jin Saotome
You forget Meri, with Microsoft out of the way Turbine gets to do WHATEVER they want via macros and UCM's. Do you honestly think Turbine will just dismiss UCM's here?

Yes, I think they'll do just that. Because that's where they should have started, Jin. By actually enforcing their CoC instead of reworking a system that they admit they allowed to be broken for 4 long years.

I, too, used to turn in UCMers... until of course they started allowing banned accounts back in the game. At that point... it just wasn't worth wasting my time.

You can believe that this is the start of something new and wonderful... and I almost envy your naivety... but I'll check and see where you are in six months when they're combining worlds and closing servers.

[lizardman]

bah hum bug what a nuisance why just not let xp chains with loop from last to first not get xp pass up!!!! why punish us all that do not have xpchain loop from first to last????

[Nexus-HG]

I see many here talking about how it could be exploited by having multiple vassals swear to you and go hunt.

That would imply you being the butch, and getting 12.... of your.... umm... friends to give you all that xp.

I dont see the majority of the current "XP chain" guilds being that generous.

In the old chain system, everyone but the few bottom guys ( or the pusher toons) getting sort of left out in the cold.

Even assuming you did do the Monarch has 12 directs, who have 12 directs.... etc etc..with this new system, the bottom folks just got THE SHAFT on this deal.

No one will want to do that. The system will be an honest one.

That is fine.

I think most of us are more upset that Turbine waited so long on this issue, because the lvl gap is gonna stay split apart... widely.

BTW, i already turned off my AC account. Moving on to Shadowbane. GL AC.

[Loctite_SC]

I am posting here because Ibn says he reads all of these messages, I'm hoping he will read and Turbine might reconsider.

I have played AC a long time, I had an OG Mage I got to level 21(pre-war)..you nerfed Life drains...fine, I re-rolled Dagger, now with swords and all the other weapons doing more damage, and creatures being even tougher..dagger got nerfed.

This if implemented, will be the straw that broke this camels back.

This is not about XP chains, it's about having to re-arrange a whole monarchy so that the trademules have active vassals, this is gonna ruin Patron/Vassal relationships.

We need to have highly skilled Tinkers, cause all the loot is high work, and the game has evolved to where a player needs Tinkerd Weps, Armor, Items.

I dont have a problem with the loyalty and leader changes, but the way you propose to change exp passup is uncalled for, there is no positive conclusion to this other than it will kill the chains..so what that wont solve anything. Player A swears to a second account player B, player A macros and player B gets 90% free exp?....nice fix.

I think what many have said will be true, you will lose alot of subscribers due to this (myself included) but it wont kill your game, just make it a big mess.

I know alot of people can say they never chained, but every person who ever had any alliegence ties has infact been part of a type of chain, many have reached very high levels..deservedly so, they have a strong vassal core, and take care of them..now this will all change, people will scramble to find a patron who will inturn swear a char to them, thus ruining the last link between Vassal/Patron left.

I hope you seriously reconsider these changes, I love playing AC, I love the friends I have made here....but I refuse to be nerfed again...at a cost increase no less.

Please dont make me hit my Unsubscribe button, I am having too much fun.

[Alaren]

Excellent!

It's been a long wait, but you've finally managed to extract yourselves from under the control of Microsoft and the first thing you do once the servers are yours is implement the xpchain fix you've had ready for awhile.

The problems people are commenting on..


Game content is in a lot of places geared towards the very high levels.. historically due to xp chains in the first place, so it will take new players a long time to reach it after the changes.
Trade mules will be incredibly hard to get to the levels required to be able to do the highest tinkers, so the current high level tinkerers will have a monopoly.
Casual players will not be able to keep up with the Jones' and will lag further and further behind


Ok, fair points.

High level content areas.. who is to say that turbine won't add more content for the lower levels now they have more control, or make fellows more resilient to be able to group hunt in the harder areas.

Trades mules.. you can always have them online somewhere and have your friends fellow with them to level them.. it will mean work yes, but why expect a free ride all the time. Perhaps turbine might adjust the tinkering xp so that they gain more xp into the skill when tinkering, or have more quests like the gromnie teeth like for the older trades to help level them.

Casual Players.. are just that, why should someone who plays a few hours a week get the same benefits as someone who plays a few hours a day, or in some cases several hours per day.

What would I like to see changed..

For a long time now, Decal has been a defacto part of AC.. if it wasn't there, most players would quit, and rightly so.. it let the player base create the extensions to the game that the devs didn't have the resources or time to create. If you look at games like half-life, pretty much everything about the game can be cuztomised by the players to create whatever the like.. While that would not work in AC, it illustrates that external teams of people can be creative and extend the life of a product. What I'd really like to see is Turbine taking over the maintenance of Decal or creating their own version and making it game robust.. even on patch day.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand, well, one of the problems faced is that of UCM.. if there was a way to stop it at code level, there would be no need for the admins to be tied up trying to get rid of them and would be available to help the real players.

[dangerousimage]

I think this change is really good. I'm new to the game and have been playing for about 3 weeks now. I just recently learned that there was an xp chain system in the game and how it works. I didn't like the idea of so much xp being sent up a chain to other people. Strengthing the bonds between patron and vassal are a great idea. I believe whole-heartedly that Turbine does whats best for us (the players) and the game.

[RedSeptember_WE]

We are implementing the second change because we understand than many players are very competitive and enjoy comparing their accomplishments against those of their peers. To this end, players will want to know if a character was leveled to 126 in the “old days” when chain XP was effective, or under the “new system”.

I think this is a Rotten Idea......
What... is this supposed to the XP chain version of the Hall of Shame like UCMers got when that rule was changed??

Many players who have not been part of XP chains will perminantly be branded for the purpose of public shame.

& this statement I think is extremly disrespectfull tward existing players..

While we’d really love to be able to show you exactly how much allegiance XP a character has received, we unfortunately can’t do that. We felt that this was the next best thing.

Talk about changeing the rules & putting perminant pushishment on all existing players for playing the game the way you made it.

[Jin Saotome]

I find it kinda funny people are still going nuts over the exp chain nerf.

Why are you threatening to cancel your accounts? We hear that every time a new change is implimented for good or for bad. We hear it every patch day too. It's like taking a whizz in the ocean now, what good is complaining going to do? Turbine could of just made vassal-to-patron exp just that; non-pass up! The exp from fighting gets passed up once and then nothing. I would of loved that, heh. The complainers don't realize it could of been much more drastic.

This new way of exp-passup allows for primary characters to level up FASTER now. And you can fill twelve spots under your primary character!! This actually gives non-chainers a chance to rake in exp and raise their character's level. Are you people so greedy that you need SIX primary characters to be levelled up at the same time?! If that's the case please don't let the door hit you on the way out, we have to pay for that door. You now can make two new characters, put one under the other, and effectivly level both up by playing one. (or get them very close) This has people ANGRY??

I can understand the re-structuring monarchies to be a real pain. Now mules and characters just thrown in as vassals for "filler" actually hinder and must be removed. They're only going to be good as rank mules. Well if you formed a monarchy just to gain exp, you should be playing Command and Conquer or something that's one-player and has an ending. AC is for community/friends/family. It's not about levelling faster than everyone else, or making a huge monarchy to max out exp production.

And don't get me wrong, I don't automatically hate everyone that's pro-chain. It's the people with the closed minds and the greedy ones I won't bother with, and activly stand against. My friendship and generosity extends to every player who wishes to actually be a part of the AC community. The people who want fairness in AC, to better it overall. Not just for their character in a chain. I didn't hate my friends and vassals that left for exp chains, I hoped they'd realize what they were doing and come back someday.

If you're afraid of change and that's why you're lashing out at Turbine and the players supporting them, then I feel for you. Change can be a VERY scary thing, especially when you think your character/guild is working fine as it is. But like I said before, please be open-minded. Posting here that you're cancelling your account and screaming at Turbine just makes you look like a greedy person. Lashing out ingame at people won't help your case either.

Read about the exp-chain change more.

Ask your other guild mates how they will adapt to this change.

Post questions here on the board, not flames.

For all we know Turbine could change the whole thing around again, or plop in a completely new system. It's in their hands now, and for that I'm thankfull.

[Soloist]

If you're going to open a new server, you should limit the change to that one server. Installing this change on the existing servers isn't going to do much, other than cause people to quit.

It's clear from the posts on this thread that players expect to be able to level mule characters that they don't even play to the highest possible skill levels. That's the sort of silly concept you get after 4 years chains and free XP: "I'll never be able to level if I have to do it myself!"

Why mess with that? Leave the existing servers as they are and have this change apply only to the new one. Then when I move there, I won't have to deal with players who want everything handed to them.



Soloist

[sollo]

Heh. I'm curious if the folks that loaned you guys the 18 big ones know about the loss your are you going to take to a rather stable playerbase.

Good Luck... this is too much way too late.

[Xenthic]

Well from waht I hear this isnt going to work unless someone from turbine can tell us that they have a fix for the math ppl have come up with, but I still thing the ppl from DT should not be the biggest factor for the game, I mean the PvP was not the original intention for the game , yes they are a big contribute to it , but not the biggest but that is is little concern to me as I dont pk, im not going to fight against you , and plz dont take what I said negatively to the point of flame

my concern is this , if you actually do get a fix for the xp passup so that chains are not effective, will chars like straght alch/cookng chars begin getting more xp while they do their trades, cause at the moment its really lousy xp for those types of chars

[tony denicola]

very bad idea :(

[Punman of MT]

I hope this patch/change/effort all works out, but it's tough to comment on something not in place yet, so I won't. Some people, as always, will do the whole "the sky is falling" posts over and over without even giving the new system a chance. I for one, (also my friends in game) have dealt with all the changes put into game since beta. Some were good, some not so good. Either/or, people will learn how to play, and have fun with the new system in place, as has been the rule in the past.

If this change makes the game so UN-fun, after it goes in that it warrants responses like this without it even being in place yet, then I'm pretty sure the Turbie's will yank it and try something else. I really get a kick out of some of the posts through these threads though...boy oh boy it must be fun to be one of the Developers and read through these pages. Sure would make me work hard to make the masses happy (yea, that was sarcasm, relax).

How these people (The Devs...yea, they're living breathing folks, or so I've heard 8) ) who are actually trying something in hopes of making the game more fun and fair in the long run put up with this bashfest, is beyond me. From reading through the thread, I can tell quite a few people have been playing the game for under a year. They think that once something goes in, it's there for good, forever, and that's that.

Cripes, no matter what, if the Devs stated they were giving away free expansion packs to AC1, plus 20 other games of your choice, I guarantee people would sit here and beeeyotch and whine about something, like no time to play them all, or that they had to pay for the envelope it shipped in. This never fails, and another fun fact I noticed (this always makes me wonder/laugh/cringe) is that a bunch (not too many, but enough for me to notice) of the people who posted on this tread sniveling, don't even play the game anymore!! To boot, they probably have no desire of returning anyway, yet post their whiny drivel for all to see.

Anyway, to the Devs...hopefully this idea works great. If not, pull it and tweak it until it does, because it has been needed for a while...a LONG while. And thanks for all the changes you have made up until this point in the game. Well, that is, except for the banderling creature art...muwahahaha!:D

PS. Trust me, this isn't a fanboy post, I'm far from it (a fanboy), but just give the Devs a chance before you start talking about attacking them and their families on the streets, or wish bankruptcy on 'em, because I still like to play, daily.
Gadzooks! :D

PUN

[Gengis]

And it hit me...I have a good idea (tell me if I'm right)

Someone mentioned the sell-back quest. What if you changed the sell-back from a timer, to xp. Just like swearing to a new patron...the higher level you are the more xp it costs you to sell back a skill.

Now, if this were done, those mules out there could be transformed into something fightworthy and hunted again. With enough xp saved up, you could transform them back into mules.

In order for me to get my mule, lvl 73, to be hunt worthy, I would need to sell back like 4 things so I could get melee D trained and spec'd, then get a weapon spec'd as well. I can't wait for a 2-week timer to do that. It would be like July when it was all done...

You like? I think it helps with the issue of trade mule obsolescence...

Something has to be done.

~Gengis

[Meri]

Well... I've been playing since... wait... let me check... ACStats (http://acstats.com/server/Leafcull.nsf/open/Meri?opendocument) says 11/3/99, but ingame it says 11/2/99... so I guess a bit more than a year, no matter what.

This is the first time I've ever really complained about a change and normally I support Turbine in whatever they attempt. This, however, is different. In my humble opinion, it's an attempt to placate the vocal minority and will alienate a large percentage of the player base.

I, for one, don't want to reorganize my monarchy in order to maximize the experience flow. That would actually ruin more patron/vassal relationships than it would aid. Perhaps you think I should drop a friend of mine who is a direct and isn't very active in order to add someone who hunts in VoD all day? I don't think so! Should I stop taking the time to help the lower levels of the monarchy so that I can spend more time pushing my own experience a bit higher? Gosh... no... that would kind of ruin the idea of what a monarch does, right?

What I've always loved about this game is that people can almost (within reason) structure their own game play around their concept of what is fun... and not have to follow a specific path. One person might enjoy solo exploring... taking his time to find all the really neat places in Dereth. Another might enjoy questing... sharing his knowledge of the game with others. Then another might actually like maxxing out his stats and comparing them to others... seeing how "uber" his template can be. And then yet another might be a hybrid... enjoying all of those things and more. This change takes away choices from a lot of people... and that's rarely a good thing.

If Turbine has something else in mind that will address these issues, gosh... I'd love to hear it. But this announcement has left a very bad taste in my mouth.

Oh... and in response to the statement:
To this end, players will want to know if a character was leveled to 126 in the “old days” when chain XP was effective, or under the “new system”.

Just paint us all with scarlett letters ... you know you want to.
:( The loyalty I've shown is repaid with a slap in the face.

[tony denicola]

I agree with sylphia 100%

My suggestion is too not upset your current player base!!!

Dont kill the Monarchies!!!

I'm currently in a xp chain, and yes it is sweet, With the new system, this will cause me to swear to my own chars to each other to max passup to myself, I dont like vassals for the reason they waste my time, when I rather be left alone and hunt.

Bored you say, sure err the game been out for 4 years, name any other game you have played for that many years? I sure havn't played any other game for that long.

I'm currently working on my trade mule, funny thing is he is 134 and still cant tink 9-10th :( sure if you can ever find a wks 4 anymore problem solved, hahaha i guess i need to be like 150 to max the tinker skillz.

Also want to mention that not everyone has 2 accts like me, if you only got 1 acct yur SOL on lvl'g your own chars.

[MaddyFF]

Good move, but to be truely efrective you almost need to do a hard level cap, witha XP rollback for those above that level.

[AnotherDude]

Well, I think its a great idea. Its late in the coming, and its not a perfect decision because there are so many people that have made use of the old style passup. It will leave a somewhat two tier system. But that two tier system is there now. Nothing new under the sun they say.

My only suggestion before this is hard coded and implemented is to not be so tight on grandpatron XP passup. Many people level their trade toons by swearing to a toon (not everyone has a second account by the way) who swears to their trade toon. And with tinkering (and crafting) such an important part of the game, we need to ensure a healty passup to our trade toons. Severely cut the passup after grandpatron for sure, but the cuts as proposed are a bit too harsh at the grandpatron stage.

That is all.

Cheers.

[Clav]

Why not just a simple 30 day moratorium on pass up when a vassal pledges to a new patron?

Sure, as long as a current chain has no breaks they are not effected, but what are the odds of that happening? With a moratorium on pass up each time there is a break the xp flow stops at that point. It seems to me that this could shut down xp chains better than the proposed changes without punishing traditional guilds and without causing a mad scramble as people move around trying to find a way to max xps.

It would also address the macro issue. No more swearing a few pushers in at the bottom of a chain to level it up. What's the point if no xps are passed up for 30 days. If someone is willing to wait the 30 days more power to them. The macroing/chaining set don't seem to be the most patient of players, however.

One of the reasons I joined my current guild was because they did not have a chain. I dislike what they've done to the game. But, the system as originally designed, while flawed, was basically a good concept. Let's not through out the baby with the bath water.

I have known people that were very good monarchs. They devoted alot of time and energy to their followers, time they could easily have spent on themselves levelling up, but didn't. Alot of their xps were passed up to them, but to my thinking that's the way the system SHOULD work. After all, a feudal lord of old didn't go out and till the fields himself, but he certainly reaped the rewards and the better a lord he was, the more he took care of his vassals, the better were the rewards that he would reap.

So, come patch day a these monarchs would be out there exploring the new content and then reporting back to their followers. Let's face it, some of us are explores, some are not. Some like to forge new pathways, others prefer to follow and be lead through quests. With the pass up they received they were able to focus more on the needs of their followers than their own.

I dislike xp chains as much as anyone, but I'm not sure that the proposed changes are the way to go. If you don't believe me just read all the threads springing up on the vault already on how to counter the changes.

I think this falls under the old adage, "be careful what you wish for..."

(Edited for spelling)

[Davidge]

Meri, Loctite and many others have stated views that closely match my own.

I suspect you missed the point of how social dynamics work in healthy large clans . . . The reason they are in the clan is because they enjoy the company of other diverse people in that clan. The vassal/patron relationship is a formality, but does not get in the way of the multiple relationships and friendships that bridge these groups. Like crèches, the vassals of one patron are cared for by that patron AND all the other more experienced members of the clan.

My fear is that your new model will create smaller cliques. Exclusionary sub-groups that will begin to fragment and become too specialized and focused. They will lose the diversity of meeting and hunting with anyone that pops in, because they will need to focus their drive for XP into smaller circles exclusively around their patron.

Worse, the exploiters have already begun to work your numbers and have figured out preliminary plans to mass-produce XP using rotating pyramids. There's a structure that I find very disturbing from the viewpoint of long term stability in a healthy clan. Is that what you intend to replace the so-called XP chains?

Then you talk about the future rewards to the monarchs . . . like chat controls that you need to implement to make allegiance chat viable for large clans. That's not a reward, that's a necessary tool to make chat functional! Please see my post pertaining to that in the Jan Letter Feedback. (http://forums.ac.turbinegames.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=8128#post8128)

And yes, finally the topic if the Scarlet Letter. I'm sorry, but that is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard. It reeks of a lack of respect for the majority of old-timers, while attempting, poorly, to punish the UCM minority. Why poorly? Because the very people you are attempting to label legitimately: Will. Not. Care.

Turbine, please rethink these things. I know you suddenly feel free of the constraints of your soon to be ex-business partner, but there was wisdom in the checks and balances, and in the moderation, that the relationship with Microsoft imposed on you. I urge you to consider more carefully how you placate the very vocal minority with this step . . . as it seems now that the previously content majority is finally waking up to the fact that you are ruining something that, while it may need fixing, does not require this drastic overhaul.

Thank you

[Lauriina]

GREAT !!! I really like this new system !

Can we expect to see the lvl cap raised in the near future ?

[Brader]

By in effect requiring Leader to be trained now, you really need to think about making leader a free sklill, as you are gonna piss off a ton of people who's templates are complete, and they used 12 vassels instead of training leader.

This will screw with a lot of peoples templates.

[HeXt]

Oops, wrong thread.


Good job, Turbine. I knew you guys had it in you, and you'd do it eventually. :)

[Meri]

Brader, you're missing the point. They don't care if they're screwing up templates or breaking up long-term monarchies. They have this new vision and your little problems just aren't of concern to them anymore. :( It's obvious by reading Ibn's announcement. Little hints like:

While we’d really love to be able to show you exactly how much allegiance XP a character has received, we unfortunately can’t do that.

Am I the only person who is appalled that they'd even consider that? What were they thinking? I know some monarchs of purely traditional (anti-chain, anti-macro) allegiances who've received experience in the way the game was first intended... and leveled with their followers to 126... but who would be somehow considered "tainted" because they received allegiance-based experience at all? Wake up people... this is not a good thing!

[Alaren]

Forgot to say..

The scarlet letter date idea is a nasty slap in the face to anyone who has never chained. Don't do it.

[HeXt]

One question I have Ibn, Will this mean stuff like Ebay/account/item sales, and UCM will be dealt with harsher to keep balance the same?


I mean sure people have benifited, but they always end up selling when they can, or they'll try to macro newer accounts/characters, which means you guys can catch those sworn to cheat in the second half. Are you guys coming up with plans like that i hope?

[morrigan]

Mike, I think that is the answer many are waiting to hear, not just an increase, but what are you going to do to justify the increase.

[Antarimysteec]

I've had so many vassels that I've tried to help. I give them items, help them get started then they leave. This will not help that at all. There's just too many immature people to expect a patron/vassel relationship to form like that.

Because of this decision, I will be retiring from the game after 4 years. I've really enjoyed playing, but this will mess me over. I've got my trade mules above me that are unable to fight. These mules are for my whole allegiance to support them.

I've got 3 accounts that will be shut off, and I know my friends have already discussed last night about quitting with their 5 accounts.

This is a VERY big mistake, one that IMO will kill AC.

[Cash_we]

I read the changes and Im afraid thats not enough to kill macroing and xp whoring, at somepoint everybody in a chain would have maxed their loyalty/leadership skills... by the other hand it would be harder to achive a decent passup and having a high rank at the same time.

[HeXt]

Originally posted by morrigan
Mike, I think that is the answer many are waiting to hear, not just an increase, but what are you going to do to justify the increase.


Well, from what I've heard they are hiring quite a few admin as well as taking some of the old admin team. :)


So this should be just the beginning of a great thing.

[coma_black]

this is what should happen when they implament this change....

give 2 weeks notice or so before it happens and temporarily remove timers on spec/unspec then reset everyone over 126+ to 126...this will level the playing field greatly and still allow for the people affected to ungimp thier char to a playable condition.

ya ya i know your all screaming are you insane...but in reality you know i'm right.

it would give everyon on pvp and non pvp servers a feel that they are in compitition range again without actually reverting the servers to noobydom.

i don't see the need for a char over the lvl of 90 for anything other than pvp...

[Dom on TD]

I'm more of an observer by nature, but this time I feel the need to throw in my opinion. I have only been playing for a little less than 2 years, but I still feel I have a pretty good grasp on the game. It's a video game. I bought it and played it to have fun. I still play it to have fun. I think most of you are taking this WAY too seriously.

I enjoyed the follower passup while I got it, but it wasn't really enough to have a major impact on the game for me. I would never quit because I have to play to earn my levels and points in my skills. I don't play for vassal XP. I play to have fun. It's a game. I don't have a character over level 126, and if I never get one over that mark, I won't lose sleep over it. I think it's a decent idea for the passup changes. I've never been in a chain, and I still have active vassals that have passed up 0 xp. (I call anyone that logs on periodically active.) AC is an escape from reality for me, not another job, where I have to hunt so much/day to stay in a chain.

If all these people are willing to quit over this change, then maybe they're playing for the wrong reasons. It isn't a competition, it's a game, a release, an escape, or whatever. I'm in a clan of about 4500, and we don't have a major chain. At least not to my knowledge. We're together, not for xp, but for the experiences we share. You can call me gay or tell me my views are childish or whatever, but the fact remains that after all the dust settles, and everyone that's leaving over this is gone, it's still only a game. Just play it and have fun.

[Sangria]

Originally posted by Zenato
Turbine you just lost $30 a month.

Your game is way too boring to not be in a chain. Who really wants to kill the same monster over and over a million times. I don't play enough to be a good patron and I don't have the time to stand in a dungeon for hours upon hours, days upon days, months upon months to get to the next level.

I have to ask and I dont just mean Zenato, but all you people who are dieing a slow painful death over this, is having to play your toons and learning the game really going to be that bad?

I look for a lot of griefers to move on to something else. Sure, UCM's might get thicker for a little while - but they will also become obvious and I expect we can look forward to some permenant bans.

[morrigan]

ok Mike, correct me if I am wrong, the +admins are MS's, correct?

That means once fully in Turbine's hands those +admins will be with MS still, or if Turbine hires them away, the point is, they will have to hire their own admins either way. That, or be admin-less. So they are not hiring MORE, they are hiring to replace as I see it.

We all "hear" many things ( translate to rumors and hopeful expectations) that will abound until Turbine themselves actually say it.

This COULD be the beginning of great things, as it looks from my perspective at this time though, is that they just traded one problem for another. So, until answers come about how they will combat the other problems players are complaining about, I for one am taking the sit back, unsubscribe, wait and see attitude.

And the new server was a bone tossed at us to keep us pacified. That, of course, being my own opinion.

and to reiterate to those that so fine, take your exp obsessed char out of here, good riddance. Some of us going are NOT xp'd obsessed, four years later and my main char is only 113. No chains, no macro's and the same vassals I had since day one. So this does not effect me in that respect at all. Nor is the 3 bucks the factor, it is other things playing into this for some of us.

[Same T'ing]

In the OLD days, one of the best things to do was
to go questing with your friends and vassals. This
seems to be a return to those days, and regardless
of the outcome will benefit those that play a social
game. It's all about social, folks, not about levels.

Good move Turbine ...

PS...I, too, played to level 90 and "chained" to where
I am now. Exploited? Nope, it was part of a plan to
push some XP in the opposite direction after I pushed
a tonne into the other close friends.

PPS ... Play with your vassals, and all will be better.

PPPS... A vassal should be MORE than a placeholder.

[Yan_HG]

I am all for these changes.

My main character has 4 direct vassals. None of my direct vassals are played anymore. They all play rerolls lower down in the monarchy. This cripples all vassal exp I will receive, but I don't care. My vassals are my vassals because they are my friends *NOT* because they give me large amounts of exp.

For everyone threatening to leave- go. I will be happier knowing the exp obsessed, chain huggin' level 200+ characters will be gone forever.

I know if my monarchy collapses due to the changes, I will be ashamed. A great monarch does not derive power from exp passup- rather, a great monarch gains their power from being the head and sole ruler of a great monarchy. Exp is a fringe benefit.

I'm not quite for the new server idea though. The "paradise-tide" idea was something started mostly by the macroers and the chainers who want to banish those against their means to a different land. I would have much preferred an extra character slot instead.

[HeXt]

Originally posted by morrigan
ok Mike, correct me if I am wrong, the +admins are MS's, correct?

That means once fully in Turbine's hands those +admins will be with MS still, or if Turbine hires them away.


During a quick tell session between me and Admin Essex, he hinted to me that some of MS's admins would become Turbine's.

[Taam]

Overall, and for the longterm good of AC I have to say that these changes are for the best. With a potential large influx of new and returning players to AC with the expansion/new server, under the old system I can't help but feel that those people would be left with the feeling that they were playing to enhance someone elses stats, much akin to 'fresh meat'.

However, there are three changes I would propose to enhance this new system in order to deal with unintended side effects.

1. For a finite period of time, or permanently, allow a monarch to move vassals provided both the new patron and vassal are online at the same time. Example, /allegiance swear toon1 toon2.

What this would accomplish is to allow the monarch to restructure the monarchy without the potential loss of the 'effective' portion of Loyalty/Leadership.

2. Reconsider the current level restrictions on a Patron/Vassal whereby under the old system the patron HAD to be a higher level than the vassal. Post level 50, which is a high enough level for both to be able to hunt in a Fellowship for equal experience distribution, provided that the prospective Patron is at least level 50, remove the level check in so far as vassals swearing to them.

What this would accomplish is most Tradeskill characters would continue to benefit, albeit somewhat deadended above them, to continue to receive some vassal experience in order to enhance their tradeskills.

3. In order to make all Monarchies more streamlined, geared toward Rank, limit the number of direct vassals to any one character to no more than three, ideally two.

This would also limit the potential for exploiting suggestion 2 in that one could not swear a dozen level 126+ characters to one level 50 character.

As I stated above I really do feel that the Allegiance changes are for the best in the long term interest of AC. That being the case however, to make such sweeping changes without affording those already in a Monarchy to adjust to those changes leaves one with a feeling of abandonment in their lack of ability to be able to modify.

In my monarchy, there are level 80+ characters with level 100+ characters sworn to them. Of course the level 80+ characters are tradeskill templates. The new system as announced doesn't address a Monarch's right to be able to adapt to the new system.

There are skill sellbacks, skill specializations post creation now. Might you also consider affording Monarchs the same courtessy in so far as their own Monarchies?

Respecfully

[Vig]

Dear TurbineGames,

I think you’ve failed to realize that there are some people who play your game that don’t care about the social system. I don’t play this game to meet new people and start life long relationships. If I want to meet people or make friends I’ll do it the normal way, I’ll actually go find a warm body. I play this game to reach a higher level so I can kill the higher level creatures you introduce.

I had planned on writing a long well thought out argument but I fail to see what it will change at this point. You have made up your mind and going back now would be bad practice.

I was actually excited when I heard you were buying AC from MS and just yesterday sent an email to your investor relations department inquiring about investing in your company. If you happen to be the one who receives this email please disregard it, I no longer feel it would be a wise investment.

I won’t predict this will cause the end of AC because I have no idea what the rest of the player base thinks and frankly I don’t care. I won’t say neener neener you just lost 2 accounts worth of monthly fees. I will bid you farewell and wish you luck with your business during these times of great but risky change.

Sincerely,
Vig

[smegit]

I'm not much for recruiting so only 2 vassels who are R/L friends 1 retired.
This is going to kill my passup to my alky/cook/tinker unless I get a 2nd account.

But I think it's a good move over all.

[Antarimysteec]

I just finished reading the whole message board.

With this change, you'll see a much flatter monarchy pyramid. In doing that, monarchies will more than likely lose rank and lose their mansions. Was this ever thought of?

With all the major issues that I can see, I clearly understand now that Turbine really didn't think the whole ramifications through of this change. There are so many variables and dynamics that will be forever lost.

In the days that I was online for hours every day, I had people (I think kids) swear to me. I helped them a lot, outfitted them, helped them level, etc... Just to have them drop with no notice and leech off of someone else. I got to the point that I will not take on vassals because of this! How will this change effect how these people jump around? It won't. As far as I'm concerned it will make it worse. From what I have seen, I'm the exception, not the rule. I've had 3 patrons for my 4 years in the game only switching when my patron left, and only then. Because of the position I have in my monarchy, I've taken in a few vassals recently. I can say now, not a single one is with me after 2 weeks. And it's NOT because of the lack of items or time I spent with them. I outfitted them with uber items and helped them to find areas to hunt. I can't be expected to spend 100% of my online time with one vassal (which is what this change will promote). What about other vassals that are demanding my time under me? I've got 1 very loyal vassal under me. That vassal I will do just about anything for, their loyality is rewarded. The come and goers... That's another story.

Instead of listening to a few vocal minorities, why not put in a voting booth and listen to what the players really want. I remember when this was done in regards to macroing a couple of years back. Keep in mind, I've been playing for 4 years and have yet to complain to Turbine about anything. There are so many people here that their goal in life is to complain on this and boards. Unfortunately, I feel that the squeaky wheel gets fixed even if that wheel is really not the problem.

In business it always amazes me that companies will do things to effect their bottom line in a negative way. Especially now when a good deal of money was spent to buy back the game. I wonder if this is what Turbine calculated in the rate hike (which I fully support!). $3 hike = 1 out of 3 people leaving, For me it's 3 out of 3 as I have 3 accounts.

[Flynn]

Ok, it's fairly safe to say the population's divided into the xp whores who hate it, the non-xp whores who hate it because now they'll never be as high a level as the xp whores, and those who love it, because it puts a stop to the xp whores, and might even get rid of quite a few.

The down sides to this change are:
1) Players will leave. Frankly, so what. I know I won't be sorry to see the back of a fairly large proportion of the xp chainers who are going to hate this change. And secondly, at this point, we have no idea what Turbine's marketing campaign for the new AC expansion's going to be. I'm willing to bet they're going to do everything they can to bring in a lot more players than they'll lose, with interest.
2) There's no way to catch up with those who got themselves to level 200ish. Is that really such a problem though? AC's rich in content for all levels, why be in such a rush to get past 90% of AC's content?
3) There's no way for craft/tinker 'mule's to gain xp. I agree, this is a problem. However, there's no way *at the moment*. Given the number of players that have expressed concern about this, I fully expect Turbine will address this issue, and maybe put in a whole new way for non-combat characters to gain xp. For example, the small amount of xp you gain from passing a skill check every two minutes being drastically increased for non-combat skills, or new Gromnie teeth style rewards, perhaps even quests that require tradeskills instead of combat skills.

Bottom line, yes, there are down sides, but I'm 100% confident that Turbine will address them, after hearing players opinions and suggestions.

[Kalmo Ardevar]

Perfect! Thank you Turbine

[Rhodoman]

the non-xp whores who hate it because now they'll never be as high a level as the xp whores

That's not why we hate it.

Rho

[Clav]

Ok, it's fairly safe to say the population's divided into the xp whores who hate it, the non-xp whores who hate it because now they'll never be as high a level as the xp whores, and those who love it, because it puts a stop to the xp whores, and might even get rid of quite a few.

I fall into none of those categories.

I like my level, but don't give a whit about who I may or may not catch. I'm not convinced that the changes, in the manner they are to be made, are the best for the game.

The following quote from the WE vault boards highlights my main concern:

http://vnboards.ign.com/Wintersebb/b5334/62472310/p6/?275

I really don't know, I macro and whatever the Anti macroers say I ignore them. Beauty of a playing on a white server Just ignore the ppl who complain about nothing, although to them its a big deal I know, but to those of us who macro in areas ppl don't hunt, they got no right to sit there and tell us how to play a game we pay for. Now the anti's complained enough to get them to change the dynamics of passup xp. Which is fine, now we just gotta swear our 10 macro's to 1 patron and max them out, then move on to the next mule. So basicaly all they are forcing us to do now is reorganize our chain.

I'm also concerned that with Loyalty and Leadership uncapped that the only ones that will be able to get the most benefit are the ones that have already exploited the system to reach level 200+.

My concerns are the effect that this will have on the game, not on any pass up I receive. I am not in a chain and I can earn more xps in 15 minutes of the 80+ hive or VoD than I get passed up each day to me. At this point in Clav's development the pass up he gets has minimal effect.

I would rather see a completel elimination of pass up than the plan as being put forth to us now.

[pacesetter]

Originally posted by Ibn
Regarding leveling up a trades character... while yes, it is no longer effective to do this via a chain, it is MUCH more effective to do this via direct active vassals.

Please note, as is stated, that the direct vassal->patron pass-up is actually increasing.

Many of us use our own multiple accounts making our own mini-chain to level our tinkers!! This means we have to play and hunt at least every other character to be effective. We must now make a hunter then do weeks of skill sellback to get our tinkers and trades mules.

this also means to get the desired effect we must find other people to swear their tinkers to us and we swear more to them as pushers eliminating levelling our mules thereby breaking monarchies as we have them today because in doing so you break existing patron/vassal relationships.

The xp chains are NOT broken, they just need restructure to go 4 vassals wide to get most of the xp they see now and it will take an extra month to get them to 126 while it takes us an extra few months to get our tinkers and trades up to par meanwhile leaving our mains dormant and our patrons without the active vassals they are used to.

As for more community; what community? when everyone with more than one account will work with everyone else with more than one account to make the multiple accounts work. the "community" will be 2 people with more than one account trying to survive. OR we will just drop the extra accounts and rely on people that already have high lvl tinks and trades thereby actually reducing the community effort we have in allegiances now. This, assuming the ones with the tinks and trades stay in the game and keep their multiple accounts.

The chains do not suffer much but we surely do! The chains will simply do what we are now forced to do. Drop all mules and inactives and swear our actives together ( note: the chains are ALL actives, they just re-swear and keep the mules and inactives we are forced to lose if we want max xp to level quickly ). ( note also: these mules and inactives often hold a monarch's rank so we can have a mansion). Only the ones on the bottom of an xp chain suffer. With this in mind chains will be constantly recruiting to maintain the pyramid affect and keep xp flowing in the bottom ranks. this will be to the other allegiance's detriment again breaking the "community" of allegiance.

[HeXt]

Originally posted by Vig
Dear TurbineGames,

I think you’ve failed to realize that there are some people who play your game that don’t care about the social system. I don’t play this game to meet new people and start life long relationships. If I want to meet people or make friends I’ll do it the normal way, I’ll actually go find a warm body. I play this game to reach a higher level so I can kill the higher level creatures you introduce.

I had planned on writing a long well thought out argument but I fail to see what it will change at this point. You have made up your mind and going back now would be bad practice.



No offense, but, I think you picked an entirely wrong game for you in the first place, dude.

[Babaganoosh[Og]]

(no)

No offense, but you trying to force your opinion on people about what AC is and what it should be to them is getting annoying.

Asherons Call is a game where all different types of people can have a good time. Socializers and Hermits alike. If he happens to like not meeting people and solo hunting, so be it. Obviously he picked a game that is flexible and allows him to do that. I cant think of many that cater to this at all except for Asherons Call.

He has a goal, give him a break, Asherons Call used to be the game that allowed him to make that goal a reality.

[moobieman]

I will wait and see how it affects my mini chain to my trade mule, I am not overly worried at this point.

[Lilstarr]

It will become easier to “power-level” a secondary character by swearing your primary character to him or her.

Will you consider changing the swearing levels, so that a higher level can swear to a lower level like AC2 was in beta? (I don't know if it's that way in AC2 now). The primary reason is to level tinkering mules. Obviously, if your primary is level 126, and the mule is 100, currently you can't swear your primary to the mule. Changing the levels would help tremendously.

[Babaganoosh[Og]]

Then what would be the point of the allegiance change at all?

A high level would then macro in high level dungeons getting that trade mule from 1-126 in a matter of days...........

[Ibn]

Originally posted by HeXt
During a quick tell session between me and Admin Essex, he hinted to me that some of MS's admins would become Turbine's.

This is not correct. Some of them are applying for the positions on our job listing page, that's all.

[Bullroarer Took]

Ibn, some of the announcement is not clear to me.

[qoute on]
In addition, as Jessica announced earlier this week we plan to open a new world in the Spring. This creates a great opportunity for us to open this world with the new system firmly in place.

Our plans call for this system to go live as part of the February event.

[quote off]

What is not clear to me is whether this change will affect the existing worlds (FF, MT, etc) as of the February event.

I would have preferred reading words such as:
a) We plan to implement the allegiance XP changes ONLY on the new world.
or
b) We plan to implement these allegiance XP changes on ALL the worlds.

It may be perfectly crystal clear to other readers of this board which way the announcement is supposed to be read, but I have learned that I "A S S - U - M E" too much. :o

Thx

[D-K]

Thanks for taking the reins Turbine. Allthough it may be too little too late, it is a good start.

Good luck in the transition period.

[AzraelTheLost]

Im not going to take 4 more years to catch up to the level 220s out there on DT, hey turbine, havent you noticed the huge trend for AC'er moving to DT? Dont you think this is for a reason? Dont you think this will actually lower the lifecycle of this game? I know it did for me, Im out, my 3 accounts are cancled as of today...

[Ambersun]

Originally posted by Ibn
Regarding leveling up a trades character... while yes, it is no longer effective to do this via a chain, it is MUCH more effective to do this via direct active vassals.

Please note, as is stated, that the direct vassal->patron pass-up is actually increasing.

As a monarch I have never been concerned with where my folks were pledged, The Patron Vassal Relationship after this long into a game where next to no new players have entered in a long time is almost non-exsistent. I play the game with my friends - fellowed or not - Vassel or not.

Many have played by the rules that have been set for many years. XP Chains were not my way but were others - so be it.

I find that my hard worked - self leveling of my Trades/tinker mule is now nerfed - How do I place a level 120 character directly beneath a level 107 character to "greatly increase" his experience. Maybe you don't understand or refuse to listen... Not everyone is level 126.

[Ghorak]

"It will become easier to “power-level” a secondary character by swearing your primary character to him or her. However, it will be much harder to power-level three or more characters with one primary character."


Does this mean we will now be able to swear to a character who is on the same account? Just asking because there are some of us (like me) who still only have 1 account.

[Strat]

Yes, Yes, Yes, nerf it, nerf it hard. KIll the all the trade and buff bots too. Destroy the Marketpalce and some of the towns! Get rid of all the residential portals and make people work for it! Throw in a new graphics upgrade and some monsters and new races and this could likely be a new golden age, the best since the Shadow Wars or Bhaal Zharon's regin, even.
Good Lord how I have wished this day and so many changes like knocking out all the item of the month updates. Do it I say, and get rid of fouci and make mages earn a living for a change, make money worthless again, knock out some of the vendors fo supplies. But please, please, make the world dangerous and hard to level in agian for all our sakes!:D


and a BIG P.S., May we please have our beloved and long remebered advocates back, it was a good job to have!

[pacesetter]

8 of us go to tusker hell or VoD. 7 are sworn directly to me. we make 150 million each. over my 150 mil I recieve 1,050,000,000 pass-up. now I drop all vassals and we all swear to player2. same same. now he drops everyone and we all swear to player3. then 4,5,6,7,8.

at this rate at the end of the night we all make:

9,600,000,000 xp


and you think xp chains are gone?????

this isn't fixed, it is far beyond snafu it is fubar.

It has opened the door for exploitation beyond belief!!