Tell us what you think of the PvP Weapon Changes

[Ibn]

Please use this thread to give us your feedback on the upcoming PvP weapon changes.

Read the article here. (http://ac.turbinegames.com/index.php?page_id=243)

[Myk]

Why in the name of heck did you not reduce the human slayer on the weeping wand????? This things 2 hits folks, the power of it is insane.

Oh and how about some info on an aegis item that missile weapons users can use while using a weeping, hollow, or phantom bow? If the Aegis property is on a weapon doesnt inflict the same DoT as a weeping then it will be completely useless and the dev shouldnt waste time in making it.

[Ifuritah]

This is EXACTLY what I have been waiting for!

The ability to find and tinker loot-generated weapons and casters that are comparable to or better than the Weeping Weapons is in-concept currently.

About time something like this was mentioned. :)

Woohoo.


Why in the name of heck did you not reduce the human slayer on the weeping wand????? This things 2 hits folks, the power of it is insane.

2 hit people under level 100 perhaps.

You get your magic d to 225, wear your aegis, and got your wards on and the wand is landing like 100-140. Not to mention most folk around level 120ish have roughly 340 hp - and you can dodge wars... try dodging a sword.


[Edit]
Myk,
You can't say its moot since they are working on an item that compares to the aegis and also a pathing fix for arrows (only reason I mentioned MagD is fothe Aegis bonus). My Main is 123 and I have 325 health already. Of course its a mage but only started with 40 endurance. Her hp costs 20 mil a point and endurance is at about 14mil.

So I know very well you can have 340 buffed hp at my level. I don't even have a cantrip endurance item on.
Hell I dumped about 300 mil into UA that I could have put into HP.

[Myk]

Originally posted by Ifuritah




2 hit people under level 100 perhaps.

You get your magic d to 225, wear your aegis, and got your wards on and the wand is landing like 100-140. Not to mention most folk around level 120ish have roughly 340 hp - and you can dodge wars... try dodging a sword.

try being an archer smarty, we donmt have anything aegis. Arrows are 100 times easier to ddge than wars. Oh and my toon is lvl 126 with a buffed health of about 300. Magic def buffs to 305 (250base) so your point is moot.

oh and 340 Buffed health.... I dont think so.

[Scout X]

I don't know where to begin, but here i go...

all melee, including sword should have damaged increased, dont exclude sword...

The DoT on the sword may be at "what you want" but DoT means nothing if the time factor is ignored because you have to run for you friggin life just because a mage starts charging up. which brings me to the next part...

how can the weeping wand be left unchanged and be considered ok? People say "Oh its so easy to dodge" so... you want a cookie? All you need to do is fail dodging twice, and you WILL die. I don't see this happening with any other weeping weapon? It's very easy to dodge bow, but if you fail to dodge arrows twice in a row, are you ANYWHERE near death? maybe like 3/4 hp.... so anyone can stand there and heal if necessary if they cant dodge the arrow. In a mages case though, if you even think about standing there, you just die... simple as that..

I myself am bow. ATM if i attack a mage i completely vuln up, i can get a streak of 4 hits and the guy can pull out just fine. But the minute i see his wind up, its time to fend for dear life.... I want a mage to have to fend for his life cuz i hit him once, too.

[Evangeline]

Looking to the future, we have a lot in store for higher wield-requirement weapons and casters, as well as new types of imbues. The ability to find and tinker loot-generated weapons and casters that are comparable to or better than the Weeping Weapons is in-concept currently.

Will these new imbues also be beneficial for PvM? :)

[Ibn]

The aegis property for bows is still being worked on, it is not going to go in for June. We do still agree that there are many aspects of PvP archery that need to be changed to make it more competitive, but our plans for PvP archery are outside the scope of these weapon changes.

[shobo-dt]

Turbine,


You know it already takes 7+ arrows to get a kill hitting for 30-50 points a shot noncrit with Crossbow right? Do you have ANY idea how hard it is to even hit with a crossbow? Well since you don't, let me tell you: Hitting anything with xbow is about twice as hard as hitting with bow.

Let's see, hit for 20 against tinkered armor with a bow that has the slowest weapon animation in the game. Balance has been achieved!


Couple this with the fact that while bow/xbow in general needs more melee defense love so we can actually fight someone with sticky you remove the melee D mod.




Spectacular, simply spectacular.

[Myk]

Originally posted by Ibn
The aegis property for bows is still being worked on, it is not going to go in for June. We do still agree that there are many aspects of PvP archery that need to be changed to make it more competitive, but our plans for PvP archery are outside the scope of these weapon changes.

Ibn, you missed answering the real question, why was the wand not toned down when it hits way harder than anything else. Changing the variance on the war spell on the wand will only slow down the wand monkeys and not the folks who can do those 190 point hits.

Oh and for the sake of all thats sane, why not FIX missile wepaons before making thses changes? It's not a secret that missile weapons are completely borked in PK. Go read all the topic about it on the PvP forum.

[I gotcha]

try dodging a sword.....ITS CALLED MELEE D....wait your a mage...then shut up! you have nothing to complain about, it looks like turbine is giving the mages all the love again! Melee finally gets a good weapon and all I hear is mages crying that they get hit for 100's......WHO cares you hit for well over that!



Thanks turbine....might as well unspec sword now and become a mage!

[Xantcha]

Coming from someone who plays a lvl 200 sword and mage on DT...this seems about right. My sword char was quite overpowered, and while it sucks to have your guy be the one getting the nerf, I understand the reasons for it. I do hope you revitalize loot weapons for pk (human slayer imbue anyone?).

[Genji-Glove]

sorry but the only way to make both PK and PKL happy is to make weeping weapons PKL only so that they can 1v1 good while on DT we will be using AR swords for group fights.

[SnoT]

Wands need there human slayer turned down.....


All other changes seem fine. Maybe turn down the slayer on swords but not the other weapons.

I find it way harder to fight a melee on my mage then it is any other type of character.

Although unless it's a really good melee I still end up killing them.

[Signalerror]

Originally posted by I gotcha
try dodging a sword.....ITS CALLED MELEE D....wait your a mage...then shut up! you have nothing to complain about, it looks like turbine is giving the mages all the love again! Melee finally gets a good weapon and all I hear is mages crying that they get hit for 100's......WHO cares you hit for well over that!



Thanks turbine....might as well unspec sword now and become a mage!

Ok lets see... for a mage to have even a near chance to evade a sword you would need high starter coord and quickness and then melee def speced.

What do you need to evade a war arc? Like 250 buffed run, and then hold W while tapping Z and C. (go at a slight angle for more affect)

mages have no hope in heck to evade a dedicated, or even a hybrid warrior!


As for the hit over 100 crud you are spewing let me put a cork in it for you. When a melee gets war'ed for lets say... 200. He runs drinks 2 elixer then 1 heal and your fine. Also note the mages DOT. if you were to stand perfectly still and just drink potions I bet you could stay even with a streak chaining mage.

Right now, the only way a mage can even have a chance to get away from a melee is to jump-spin and then slide jump over some un-even terrain to get the melee's tracking so messed up that you can get away.

Melee can just run at a angle and then gain distance anytime a mage has to cast a spell... simple enough.


So stop whining about "mage love". Melee's got all the love they ever would need when they got their aegis and weepings.

[Ifuritah]

try dodging a sword.....ITS CALLED MELEE D....wait your a mage...then shut up! you have nothing to complain about, it looks like turbine is giving the mages all the love again! Melee finally gets a good weapon and all I hear is mages crying that they get hit for 100's......WHO cares you hit for well over that!

No, "I'M" not a mage. I PLAY a mage template, along with my SWORD template.
Even if a mage had melee D they won't be able to get it high enough to make a difference to a melee of the same skills assuming they start out in a standard mage Temp (430+ weapon skill vs 300ish meleed).

You obviously have a major bias against mages. The only ones I feel sorry for are the archers, who hopefully should be able to 1v1 as well as a melee/mage can here shortly.

Sure mages hit hard but at moderate speed, melees hit moderatly hard but fairly fast. I don't believe Mages are as mobile as a melee either when fighting (they can break off and return quickly). Mages can fast cast, but a melee can run circles around em till they go into regen mode. I think playing a melee takes more skill when facing a mage, obviously, but I don't think they are under powered. It just the way the attacks are setup.

I am all for the new changes to take effect. We need to get over this idea that the weeping weapons are THE ONLY weapon to fight with. They are at the moment yes, but down the road, tinkered is where its at, and I welcome it!

[shobo-dt]

It would be great to see Turbine encourage weapon diversity. Instead if you're not sword/bow/mage you can't compete. I'll put up with hitting for a totallyl obscenely low damage amount when Turbine figures out a way to let archers use range to their advantage, as it is their only advantage. Until then, get archery DoT where it needs to be taking into account that about half of an archer's shots are going to hit the environment.

[Ophar Kabitaki]

Why would they change the Weeping Wand when you only hit with every 4th or 5th spell you cast anyways? Everyone and their mother knows how to dodge wars..when you only land once every 4 or 5 shots the shots have to count. If you are silly enough to go toe to toe with a mage, then you should be two-shot.

[Last Man]

I wish we could have some sort of PKEXPERIENCE O'meter next to our names based on the amount of time in game RED and kills/deaths. That way the viewer could easily ascertain which posters don't know WHAT THE EF THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.

(This was not directed at the poster above this post, just a general sentiment after reading so many of these posts.)

MY FEEDBACK:

All sounds good, I don't know if lowering the melee D mod on bows is warranted UNLESS it is a precursor to really nerfing missile D, so I'll reserve judgement.

I think keeping damage in line with costs is important.

My suspicion is that your hollow changes won't be enough to stimulate much usage, as it would have to be SUBSTANTIAL to make a difference against tinked suits.

Good positive changes overall (except for archers). Please pay close attention to what they are saying (aegis imbue needs to be able to be applied to weeping maybe just use an upgrade functionality in game instead of an imbue.) I'd hate to see their fix be poorly thought out, they've waited quite a while for it.

Imbues on loot items are cool, it gives people more reason to hunt on DT and revitalizes the economy for any industrious person regardless of level due to demand for salvage.

[I gotcha]

The point is you said try dodging a swd...use melee...cant get it high enough dont be a mage! you can not sit there and say that mages have not been overpowered for YEARS!

Then melee gets some love and starts tearing you apart...what happens they let you blood loather a weapon...then you cry more...now they reduce what it can hit for....TOTALLY not touching the weeping wand! whats that...you only hit 2 out of 5 times...TOUGH! While we are dodging the war, are we hitting you? NOPE, and WITH THE LAG most times you will get slung back into the war anyways!

[Genji-Glove]

funny how i played a melee character for the first 3 years of AC and i killled ALOT of people. hell i didnt even have life magic so i would be one hit by bolts, but i still won alot more fights than i lost.

stop saying melees have been underpowered for years when they have been exactly where they should be.

[DarkLegend]

Ok, maybe everyone seems to be forgetting, so I'm going to try to break it down to you..

I hope, and it looks like..damage is done, depending on how much the skill costed to raise. There is NO reason a skill that costs 6 to train, and 10 to spec, should do much damage to a war spec guy, that costs ALOT of skill credits.


Same goes for sword, I believe to train and spec it, it costs less..

now if folks complain this much about it, let sword compete very greatly, but raise the skill credits for it up to match war...

and, and make sure folks can still dodge it..

[ElronOfDarktide]

the 10% reduction in weeping sheild will make melee vs melee fights much more likely to be stalemates and it will make melees MUCH more powerfull vs archers. (im not 100% sure it applies to bow)

Perhaps you should add something where if you are 2 people swinging at EACH OTHER with melee weeping weapons their damage is increased 20%? This would help greatly in the melee vs melee battle of who can heal more. After all. Melees have very nearly as much HP as mages (especially now w/ +50)...but they also have melee d...and now sheilds ... basically it will be way to hard to kill a melee on another melee especially 1v1. (now w/ 100+ elixers and BETTER heal kits too!)

And for all you talking about "dodging sword' What do you call jump spin???? or jumping on a tent??? I call those perfectly viable ways to avoid getting hit with a sword. Its not like there is NO way to stop a sword character from hitting you. So get over it!

Elron

[Maxymyllyn]

...that my sword is getting nerfed, but so be it. The hollow increases through and phantoms seem a bit lamer to me - I was expecting a weapon set comperable to the weepings. Instead all you did was take a baby step when a biiiig step was needed. Alot of the affects of hollows and whatnot are lame considering what tinkering and the weaping weapons are.

Bottom line, it looks like you just made alot of the weeping weapons suckier, you paid back the mages with not nerfing them as bad, and didn't increase the hollow/phantom weapons enough for me to take my Phantom Sword off my wall and use it.

[Bardo]

Everybody's got a pretty valid point I guess and you can sit her debating the physics and mechanics of fighting and how these changes effect it. A large part of this IS skill and whether you have it or not. Can you adapt?

In the end I think that its just going to have to be implemented and played with and thats the ONLY way you'll see if its more balanced.

[Rage_Lao]

You gotta be joking about the Xbow. Do to the slow reload time it is already crud. Making it even worse. Weeping Xbow will become useless in PK.

[Heideggar]

I've always been someone to back up the idea of "you get what you pay for".

16 skill credits is a lot. As long as the credits are balanced out in these changes I don't mind. It's when a 4 credit skill does half of what a 16 credit skill does, that gets to me.

Missle weapon improvements still need to be done regardless of these changes, which seem a bit more melee oriented than an all-around change.

Atlatls are not good PvP weapons. They may cost less than bow, but their tracking, animation, etc. don't put them close to a good PvP skill.

An idea for the loot generated PvP weapons: Aegis like ability on loot generated weapons. 25% chance that a weapon would have an aegis like property, ranging from avg. to excellent (mutated aegis ability). This may or may not be tinkerable to raise the aegis ability. I don't know enough about the numbers behind the aegis abilities to say otherwise, just an idea. Then, a human slayer property could be added, and the aegis ability wouldn't count for a tinker. The increased damage reduction from an aegis ability tinker would though... if that aspect were added.


Wield req. for better weapons is nice. I saw the old 250 wield req. for the deadly hollow yesterday hehe.

[KriegPfeil]

Originally posted by Ibn
The aegis property for bows is still being worked on, it is not going to go in for June. We do still agree that there are many aspects of PvP archery that need to be changed to make it more competitive, but our plans for PvP archery are outside the scope of these weapon changes.

no offense or anything but I am more than tired with this excuse for not making bow competitive today. balance bow with the way it works in game right now. if in the future you can actually improve bow as far as how easy it is to dodge currently you can then adjust the damage on bow down. A fix has been in the works for a hell of a long time now. Also an exact number for the mod increase of bow would be nice.

some of these changes seem like you guys almost pull them out of a hat. taking stabs in the dark isn't a very good way to balance pvp. there has never been a viable phantom or hollow missile weapon, it will be interesting to see if they remain useless or not. interesting that war magic, still the king of pvp in 1 on 1 situation is unchanged while sword as nerfed. if you had tinkered armor sword wasn't that much of an issue for mages.

Taking away the shield hollow aspect is never something that is asked for by anyone who knows anything about pvp. There are part time pvpers who post about pvp more than they actually participate and this is something they regularly complain about. Before weepings or phantoms melee vs melee fights were dependant on one person falling asleep for there to be a death. The same thing would have to happen to a melee to die to an archer, ever. Now you are thinking about making it 90% hollow. For a tinkered up shield to get to 1000+ SL after buffs would be an easy thing. 90% hollow would still reduce damage between 1/2 and 1/3. The way to balance shields through AC entirely instead of leaving them the most overpowered item in pvm is to simply add SL to AL and then do one damage reducing equation. There is no way to balance them if you keep them seperate. Right now in pvm a shield > max melee defense. I have max melee d on my archer, and have played a melee without melee defense. So I know what I am talking about.

The current state of pvp has sword pretty even with war magic. UA isn't that far behind. Axe and mace suffer from not having a pierce swinging motion on full speed, this prevents them from sticking to people almost entirely. Bow is bad vs war, it is bad vs sword, and bad vs anything else, because it just doesnt do enough damage to kill anyone that is buffed.

With lower attack mods I would like to see deadly hollows and phantoms do more damage than weepings. This would give some benefit of having melee defense that isn't maxed. Are the weapons going to have the same defense mods as attack mods that the current weeping have?

[Genji-Glove]

dark, if the best pvp weapon was based on skill credits only then why would anyone use anything except war magic?

other weapons should still be viable in pvp


**************************

Oh yah! Why did you nerf X-bow and Atlatl?
Do you see anyone ever using these 2 weapons in PvP now?
Guess why not, because they SUCK!!!
Stupid idea to nerf them imo

[Ophar Kabitaki]

Well, a mage expends 16 credits..double what a sword or archer does, to learn his war magic...the damage should be at least twice as high..just by credit expenditure. Since the only way to change war spell damage is by "levels" of the spell, and everyone casting 7s, the mage does a little more damage than it should, but theres really no way to alter that. Not sure what the Wand's Human Slayer bonus is, but I would say the mages personal crit adds more than any Human Slayer bonus does. I have never hit for more than 200 with a war, without getting a crit..so it looks like the Wand's Slayer bonus is only 10% or so. 180 max damage of the spell plus 10% = 198. The 200-230 crits are always with the mages personal critical hit added. (Maybe not, but it has been that way for me :P)

[Genji-Glove]

if there were other pk skills that cost 16 credits then it would be fair to do significantly better in pvp with those skills but since war magic is the only 16 credit skill they can't make it the only good pvp weapon

[IgntionTDC]

Pk's forget it's harder to play Archer's and Melee's thus they start to complain, but I give all Archer's and Melee's ups for sticking in there.

The melee rebalance is good. You shouldn't have one thing that owns all others..

I think archers should be fair game in pk again come the june patch..

X-Bow and Atlatl.. hehe really was no need to change that because no one uses em anyway but oh well.

Overall and once you get all of your plans for pk in motion im sure it will be absolute chaos and party time!:D

[Winter]

I'll preface this with saying that Im not much of a PVP'er, and say these 'updates' seem like a band-aid for a gunshot wound.



EDIT: SPeeling

[Maxymyllyn]

Honestly, since I am not PK, I am more interested in the swords being useful pvm not pvp, but that's just me. The Overlord's Sword was a great great start!

[Gregory_WE]

hmm I'm not sure if the hollows or phantoms will be competitive at all... you'd have to buff them up quite a bit, otherwise they would not be used at all, so these changes would be in vain.

[smaweet]

Ever try landing a war on a max magic def sword guy with all the wards and an aegis? If you even land it, you'll hit for 90 even with a Weeping Wand. The damage changes sound good -- though the modifier changes I cannot say.

[Ibn]

Originally posted by shobo-dt
It would be great to see Turbine encourage weapon diversity. Instead if you're not sword/bow/mage you can't compete.

This is exactly why we're raising the damage on all other melee weapons.

[Hosagi]

The base damage modifier for the Weeping bow has been increased, while the base damage modifiers for both the atlatl and the crossbow have been decreased.
WTF is up w/ the weeping xbow getting a nerf is it just me or do the devs want to make it so no xbow toon goes pk? increase the damage mods on ALL missile weapons
i have an xbow toon against a banned melee/mage w/ lvl 7 vuln and imperil max damage i do is 23 oooooooo its time missile weapons got pk love

[Ifuritah]

Ever try landing a war on a max magic def sword guy with all the wards and an aegis? If you even land it, you'll hit for 90 even with a Weeping Wand. The damage changes sound good -- though the modifier changes I cannot say.

O-o with no skill - pretty good melee fighter IMO.

Last I fought him I was waring him for roughly 100-130 a shot, criting 'bout 150.

90 sounds a tad exagerated, but thats just because I have never seen or hit for that myself, so I can't really comment for that.


Forward to the revitalized Tinkered era!

[Genji-Glove]

Oh yah Ibn, why not lower the value on armor so that we can used tinkered armor here on DT?

Now that you have made it so you can pay for plat/comp burn and any other expenditures just by picking up copper/silver peas you have no excuse not to lower value on armor.

[Pessimist]

ANOTHER lot of useless PK changes.

You need to NERF melees in general so group fight will be good again. As in reduce ALL melee damage.

" they hsould make banes last 24 hours"
"and they should make lag better"
"and UCM'ing legal"
"if they did all that id love Ac again :/"
["you forgot to bring runcast back"
"yea
run cast would be l33t, you could kill melees that ran"

I'm glad im not playing AC to have patches waste time on hollows and phantom stuff no one uses, nor do they want to.

Melee is taking the skill out of PVP when will you learn?!?!?!

[Genji-Glove]

"Melee is taking the skill out of PVP when will you learn?!?!?!"

hahhahah, what the hell are you talkinga bout?

[Ifuritah]

"Melee is taking the skill out of PVP when will you learn?!?!?!"
WTF?

[IgntionTDC]

Lol. Melees and Mages are Pk, plain and simple.

[Ibn]

A clarification regarding the aegis affect for loot bows -- this will not be an imbue. You'll be able to use this along with an imbue on a loot bow.

[Ifuritah]

"...along with..."

What about with other bows? Is it usable only along side a loot bow?

Hmm, Aegis arrowshafts?

[IgntionTDC]

Hehe, some pks worry to much, don't let the weapons bring down your game.

[Ryakki]

A level 100 mage can kill maxed sword toons all day long... and you're decreasing sword damage... intresting. I guess balance is over-rated, huh? :P

At least you're doing the "less than full sheild hollow" and "somewhat balanced intra-melee balance" thing.

[Jape]

>>> You know it already takes 7+ arrows to get a kill hitting for 30-50 points a shot noncrit with Crossbow right?

Yeah.

But theres other side on this. Ive been critted with weeping xbow well over 200 damage (through AL 350ish tinkered armor and full buffs ofcourse).

So basically, when you crit with weeping xbow, damage is pretty insane, but if you dont, damage easily negated with healing.

[rageofmages]

Some of you can't read. The max damage on the wand was not reduced, but there was an insane variance introduced. 70-180, where it was 110-180. That is a nerf, double high hits will not be as common.

Weeping Wands need high damage, wars don't land and when they do, damage is soaked up by gsx/aegis. War magic should hit hard, just as sword should for melees, and bows for missle weapons.

[IgntionTDC]

I totally agree with rageofmages.

[shobo-dt]

Jape:


You had to be missing a bane. I fought a mage in GSC and I get very steady and constant 115 crits with no underbanes. I crit him twice in a row and he jiggled so he still won eventually. I crit the guy like 6 times that night in several seperate encounters.



A hit for over 100 is rare these days. I don't mean to imply you don't know what you're talking about. I often find your posts insightful, but I'd love to meet up with you and do some testing at some point.

[Myk]

Originally posted by Ibn
A clarification regarding the aegis affect for loot bows -- this will not be an imbue. You'll be able to use this along with an imbue on a loot bow.

Will we be able to use it along with a weeping bow? Will be able to buff/debuff bows with this ability? If we cant use this with a weeping bow then bow is still borked as 1 laother and an aegis bow is toast. Even if loot bows were better in PK, a weeping would make a great back up.

[Leetum_al-Roxor]

This is so unfair. Right now mages totally dominate Pvp. There is DoT factor in Pvp. I am a lvl 126 (129) warrior, and I can't stand against a mage for more then 5 minutes, because they hit me for 120-240 dmg. I hit them on full power for 40. Most mages go 100 end and most melees have to go less then that because we have other stats to worry about. I understand that uping other weeping weapon damages, but people spend a LOT more points specing sword then any other Melee skill, thus is why Sword should be the best!


This is a HORRIBLE idea you nerf all melee weapons, BUT you keep wands the same!


BAH Ghru mages > everyone....BAH!

[YoshotheGrand]

My 2 cents:

Dont nerf the melee weps! Make em better! Also make the bows better. To compensate for this, keep the wands the same, and things'll be a lil more balanced.

[Lynchen]

I've been playing for the past 3 years on TD and I've never took the time to register here.

I have registered for the first time to complain about the changes to PvP. I can understand Turbine wanting to make non-weeping weapons more useful. But the fact the you're planning to nerf only some weeping weapons to create a "balance" is rediculous.

You plan to take away both the base bonus to attack and melee? *Smack head*

Probably the worst idea since the last purposed PvP changes. I only hope that these changes don't go into effect. Because I wouldn't even bother with the PvP aspect of this game if they do.

[Frank The Knife]

I would like to see your data on why you think sword is overpowered.

I cant belive you are going to decrease sword damage when its at its best balance ever. Why not decrease the wands power? I get 2 hit most of the time by war spells with 350 health, spec magic d, aegis and major ward yet thats ok?

Has a developer ever fought someone with max health and a hint of skill with a sword?

Coming from a long time sword user I am disgusted at your nerf.

You have to have Bruce Lee skill to play a melee and kill people while any moron can kill consistantly on a mage.

All this is going to do is bring more griefing group melee gank squads because a solo melee cant survive.

I will also ask why nerf the weapons now and not when a sutible replacement is put in game? (ie you in development comment)

All I have to say is this sucks. I cant belive your going to nerf an already hurting class in pk.

[Silifi Of Death]

Mages are definately overpowered in PK. The other day I was fighting in MP, I'm a lvl 94 Axe, cast lvl 6s in Life. Now, I'm fighting a mage, lvl 116, with the ability to cast 7s. After I imped/vulned him, my axe was hitting for 25 on full power, and the mage was hitting for 100s on me, I even had wards and an aegis on, I have 200 magic d. And, because I'm melee, i have to back out every time he shoots a war, which takes time because of sticky melee. And when I pull out, I have to heal myself, and by that time he's usually regenerated, not even healed, the measly 50 dmg I did to him, and is casting wars at me again.

I don't know how the heck anyone can deal out 100s of damage on a melee weapon against mages with fully tinked armor.

[IgntionTDC]

Originally posted by Frank The Knife
You have to have Bruce Lee skill to play a melee and kill people while any moron can kill consistantly on a mage.

I don't know why but that's about the funniest shish I heard all day. Bruce Lee!

[Slpoheklmnuov]

You guys never cease to amaze me. Do you have any common sense?

bow doesn't really need to hit harder, it needs to be able to actually HIT, but since you can't do that you make it just hit a little harder, which won't help.

sword hits really hard, but reducing the damage isn't going to help any. nerfing hunter's lash is pointless too


I swear you guys make changes but you never actually do this really cool process called THINKING beforehand. Hell, you guys never even play test. Years and years of screw-ups on your part that could've been easily avoided with a little bit of "realistic" playtesting have proven that


absolutely...

amazing.

[-Kaxak-]

if the weeping wand gets a nurf , then the Aegis needs one as well ........


430 war , 315 focus , on a warded sword char with an Aegis avg hit is 115 to a low 90 . crit is 210 to a high of 230 .....


nurf the wand and we might see this ....... 90 - 50 low , high 115 to 170 max


I'm all up for changes to hollows and stuff , but really the lash and swords need a nurf , not the wand itself :)

[ninjalo]

geez...do you guys even play this game? seriously...no changes to weeping wand? RIIIIGHT...nevermind BM has and will continue to be the most powerful class for pvm and pvp.

[Leetum_al-Roxor]

I would glady challange any dev on FF to make a mage char any type, whether be OG/BM/Grief/Spec Item. As long as you have war magic, to fight me. My sword buffs to 464 I have 310 buffed Str. And I guarantee that unless I critical you 2 times in a row that you will kill me. Due to the fact that arcs are to strong/fast due to the fact of lag, and due to the fact that mages will always dominate because melees can't do 150+ dmg on a full power hit if someone is fully baned. You guys had an awesome idea with being able to lure other people. But because 70% + of the population of AC plays mages of course that idea is going to get shut down. I have played this game sense release, and I sense then all mages have ever done is cry about how they are underpowered, well I'm a melee, and I'm crying right now. Crying about how pvp is so unbalenced. So instead of give mages more power, give something to melees. Hollows were awesome love, but with 400+ armor that does nothing now. Weeping Weapons are an awesome idea, but banes > all physical dmg (non magic casting). Either bring back the ability to cast lures on other people, or give us war banes. Because there are melee/missle banes/protections, but the only protection agianst war magic is life protections. And that just won't do.

[TravelerHG]

Only question I have is why the phantom UA damage isn't being upped with the other weapons. I've tried hitting mages with that thing before and the damage is pretty much worthless.

Why is it being left out on the phantom damage upgrade?

[IgntionTDC]

Once you get into higher levels, BM stinks on Ice. Caul/VoD wise.

Twinking up the Weeping bow good idea.

But also as I was thinking about this.

Damage to arrows is a + it doesn't need to much of a dramatic change to kick but.

However, and I believe you stated this, the path of an arrow just need to be twinked slighty and arrows just a little harder too see. If you make the firing effiency slighty faster, archers should be find.

35-45 damage a hit, about a %15 percent bonus on the time it takes arrows to leave the archer and hit the opponent.

Say take it like this, closer you get, alot quicker the arrows become, but then gets a flux when right next to the opponent.

So say max hit 45 about half to a quarter of the radar, as they rear closer to opponent is where the archer gets its max hits.

[Ivanhoe]

Not sure why you nerf sword and increase the rest of melee weapons.

Sword costs the most let it hit the hardest.

isnt this fair?

instead of doing these increases across the board with all melee weapons slightly increased

how about decreasing UA and increasing the other melee weapons based on credit cost??????


Next up shobodt mentions xbow cant hit a moving target which is true. But when it does hit it hits for 2x? the power of Bow.

While costing LESS credits.
Again you decide if u want more damage/more hits/etc based on credit cost. This is balanced.

If/When archery (including xbow) gets bigger hit radius/faster pathing it will help archers and xbowers both hit better.

and they will be balanced with each other from there cost of credits.



Turbine continues to go in the wrong direction for PvP on darktide While these changes effect balance a little bit in bad ways
the major issue imo is still all the exploits in PvP which have been going on for years and just gets worse and worse as people exploiting get higher and higher in level.


Im staying away from paying turbine monthly until they show me they know what they are doing in regards to pvp.

[Freakshow]

Ivanhoe you must have bout as much exp. playing a xbow char as the Devs do.

As it stands now, bow DOT is already greater than xbow, add to that the horrible wand to xbow animation and healing issues, and bow has the benefits for the skill credits spent.

As far as xbow doing 2x the damage of bow when it does land...hogwash. This went away when the weeping xbow was dropped to 100% mod and also way back when they made arrows and quarrels the same damage.

If Xbow needed a nerf due to some huge benenfit over bow, then you would see far more xbow PK/L out there. I cant count them on one hand on MT.

For all those who think xbow hits too hard (DEVS Listen up please)....you must not be wearing tinked armor. With maxed Xbow/Coord..with majors... I hit a fully tinked suit for 35-45 pts on avg with crits in the 80- 100 range. Considering how hard it is to hit anything, I hardly see the need for a nerf to xbow's damage.

Dont even get me started on Xbow vs mages and the lack of Aegis and the tracking issues.

And now on top of the damage reduction you are taking away the defense mods??? So now im useless against mages ....and my maxed melee d is now a waste too ...WOOT great reason to play a xbow!! happy days!!


Freakshow lvl 177 xbow

[-Slyzer-]

This is so unfair. Right now mages totally dominate Pvp. There is DoT factor in Pvp. I am a lvl 126 (129) warrior, and I can't stand against a mage for more then 5 minutes, because they hit me for 120-240 dmg.

My suggestion:
Wear proper wards (GSC) and use an aegis shield and ~140 will be an average hit (non-crit). The 240 damage you received would be a high end crit which is very rare.

I understand that uping other weeping weapon damages, but people spend a LOT more points specing sword then any other Melee skill, thus is why Sword should be the best!

It still we be the best. They never said they would bring it down to the level of the other melee weaps, just to bring it down a little.

I get 2 hit most of the time by war spells with 350 health, spec magic d, aegis and major ward yet thats ok?

My suggestion:
Once you get hit the first time, back away and heal (or pop an elixir then heal). Doing this, you should rarely be killed by a second war. Time your attacks to hit while he is charging up a war spell and eventually he will have to heal/revit/stam2mana. Hope for a crit and finish him off.

You guys never cease to amaze me. Do you have any common sense?

bow doesn't really need to hit harder, it needs to be able to actually HIT, but since you can't do that you make it just hit a little harder, which won't help.

No need to bash Turbine. They are developing ways to increase the hit percentage of missle weapons as explained in the recent LTTPs. The damage increase I suppose is to balance bow with the other missle weaps.

sword hits really hard, but reducing the damage isn't going to help any.

You just contradicted yourself. If sword does hit too hard, reducing the damage will help.

I would glady challange any dev on FF to make a mage char any type, whether be OG/BM/Grief/Spec Item. As long as you have war magic, to fight me. My sword buffs to 464 I have 310 buffed Str. And I guarantee that unless I critical you 2 times in a row that you will kill me.

That would prove nothing, except that you're an unskilled PKer.

but the only protection agianst war magic is life protections. And that just won't do.

The aegis shield and major wards. Not to mention dodging.

Not sure why you nerf sword and increase the rest of melee weapons.

Sword costs the most let it hit the hardest.

isnt this fair?

It will still hit the hardest. See above somewhere.

Note: I don't play a mage. ;)

[Sabu]

Originally posted by Myk
try being an archer smarty, we donmt have anything aegis. Arrows are 100 times easier to ddge than wars. Oh and my toon is lvl 126 with a buffed health of about 300. Magic def buffs to 305 (250base) so your point is moot.

oh and 340 Buffed health.... I dont think so.

Melees can lower the damage of a war by an insane ammount with an aegis. Now try facing some max or near max toons with an aegis... your hitting for 100 or less with a vuln.(including their shardage) ; not sure I was vulned even.
Plus with banes i was once hit for 97 by a swordie ... dont tell me that isnt overkill. Mages attack slower than a sword ,and a sword doesnt need to dodge wars anymroe.

Well said syl

[Unspoken]

Please take the time to read before posting.


Weeping Wand will have a wider damage range of 70-180 (formerly 110 – 180).






P.S. If you think a mage hits you to hard get a full set of wards.

[Caffeine]

am I the only one who remembers that melee's should never beable to take on a mage 1vs1. Melee's were intended to be effective only in gank squads and thats how they should remain.

[Sabu]

Originally posted by Ryakki
A level 100 mage can kill maxed sword toons all day long... and you're decreasing sword damage... intresting. I guess balance is over-rated, huh? :P

At least you're doing the "less than full sheild hollow" and "somewhat balanced intra-melee balance" thing.

Whoever plays those sword toons really really sucks and is quite unlucky... no way in hell any lvl 100 mage lands consitently on a MAX magic d Sword. Yes, personal experience

[MannyCalavera]

I like the purposed changes. The only additions I would recommend is either making an imbue that works like Human Slayer (but maybe a bit toned down) and/or making AR ignore shields somewhat as well. This is to make the new tier of weapons, that are on the way, better than weeping weapons...devs have always said that loot stuff should be better than quest stuff....and this would insure that holds true.

Also, if the aegis item isn't usable with at least an AR bow....don't even bother wasting time making it. I really don't think mages should have an aegis item since they already have higher magic defense and most are spec resist and 400+ hps. They are already hard enough to kill. Maybe make it jewelry with missile weapon requirements? or a regular tinker for missile weapons?

....hurry up and drop barriers on housing as well ;)

[Frank The Knife]

My suggestion:
Once you get hit the first time, back away and heal (or pop an elixir then heal). Doing this, you should rarely be killed by a second war. Time your attacks to hit while he is charging up a war spell and eventually he will have to heal/revit/stam2mana. Hope for a crit and finish him off.:


Believe me I can dodge BUT when a mage starts with the casting exploits/hacks and pounds the keys it causes me to LAG. I then get hit with that rubber band lag war when my client figures out what is going on. Not real fair no matter what the damage.

I wish they put more time into animation lag and things like jumpspin/elixir slide which hurt pvp more than a few lucky crits on a whiney unbaned mage in AL250 armor.

Either get rid of ALL the weepings or leave them alone till you have a replacement in game. Dont nerf then have players wait months for a new weapon. Thats just no fun.

[Skarfac]

Why nerf x-bow in pk. It's already a piece of **** pk weapon. Slow animation, stupid damage around 20-30 whoa like anything is going to die from this. God that was retarded move on your side. At least try that poc first before nerfing it to hell. Oh well at least I have turbine's favorite charcter a mage!!! to pk with. HAHAHHAHA so I get to have some fun too.


No matter what they do, mage is always the ultimate. I can just slide cast and live forever with fast cast becasue lvl 7 owns all. It should be like melee>archer, archer>mage, mage>melee, two melee> all

[Ivanhoe]

"I really don't think mages should have an aegis item "

Agree 100% here.

[Lutieus]

am I the only one who remembers that melee's should never beable to take on a mage 1vs1. Melee's were intended to be effective only in gank squads and thats how they should remain.
Exactly. It's worth noting that most of the people wanting melee boosts never mention group fights, instead focusing on 1v1. Group combat is where melees are strongest. Ignoring that is like saying Spider-Man's a wuss because he can't fly.

I like most of the proposed changes. I only have a few minor concerns:

--Hopefully the missile weapon changes, particularly xbow and atlatl, indicate progress on an arrow pathing fix. Otherwise that does seem a little counter-productive.

--Any chance phantom weapons will have a special property beyond phantasmalishness? Their main function is to function as an alternative against high-armor enemies. That was great when they were introduced, since tinkering was completely reshaping the meleer scene, but weepings have long since superceded them. Now for every strength phantoms have, weepings are stronger.

--The ability to make our own PKable weapons would be pretty cool, but it would have to be limited. Too much flexibility would require messing with PvM to balance out, and there's already way too much resentment there. The use of PK-specific gear is a great way to tinker with PvP without stepping on bunny-slippered toes.

--Is there a particular spec for balancing hollows against weepings, like as a percentage of DoT or something? If so, may I ask what that ratio would be? 75% seems like a good target figure, IMO.

--Hopefully the archer-aegis won't be limited to loot weapons? Between a loot bow and a weeping, there's just no comparison.

Note to the whiners: Unless you're dagger, staff, or maybe spear, the only reason to do poorly on a melee is having a bad connection. Otherwise, you're simply not good at it. For those complaining that your template isn't good against mages, use a better template. For those complaining that you can't eat war after war, gee, mages have to dodge each other as well. Fastcast isn't an excuse, because it hardly does anything now. And yes, I do have a melee.

All in all, good work, devs!

[Bivitar]

Just reading the main post, good changes and at least turbine will have a better point to work from for improvment later.

[TSK-AoW]

Personally I disagree with my guildmate xantcha on the damage reduction. Currently it is impossible for a skilled melee with the BEST melee vs mage template to kill another skilled mage in tinked armor. Absolutely no chance 1v1. Ive killed plenty of mages 1v1 before and its almost always because of a combination of things they were doing wrong:

1) they dont underbane (has a HUGE effect on melee damage)
2) there gaunts/solls/helm were gimpy AL (like knorrs helm)
3) they completely stink against melees (dont know how to force the melee into breaking off when needed by using wars etc)

Any mage with over 300 health and armor over al 300 and underbaned, should never lose to a melee in a 1v1 situation.

Now granted a mage has no real chance of killing my character either (level 201 sword char with 437 buffed health, full wards and 21% reduction of damage from aegis) but thats because Im soley designed to kill mages (melees tear me up)

Although I disagree with reduction swords pvp damage for weeping weapons, I do offer some other alternatives.

1) Allow melees to charge their attack power while moving

Currently against a skilled mage i risk about a 25-40% chance of getting hit by a war spell for only hitting a low power shot (typically does about 12-20 damage non crit on an underbaned mage) which gives the mage a huge damage bonus advantage already in fight. Additionally if i want to try a full power hit, it generally risks around 70-85% chance of getting hit.

I believe by allowing melees to charge a full hit that it levels out the 1v1 playing field quite a bit, but doesnt really give melees an actual increase in DoT.

2) Remove underbaning completely

This currently reduces melee damage by around 15-25% damage (yes these are numbers I tested by comparing critical hits on armor on pks and had them remove their underbanes to retest critical hits)

This advantage to a mage is huge and crippling to a melee, who basically HAS to tank war to do a 40-60 point hit in hopes of critting for 120

3) Finally I believe healing needs some love. I think it should be changed so that you cant fail, but if the healing skill check is higher for whatever reason, then you should have less chance for healing for large ammounts of health. Currently I have 437 buffed health. My healing skill is speced, maxed along with coord and focus maxed. If I am under 200 health, I seem to fail around 30-40% with plentiful kits, if im under 150 health, I dont even try to heal, i use an elixer instead, because its around 50-60% fail.
If under 100 health, I fail around 95%. Considering that first you must find decent healing kits, not to mention spending 10(12?) credits on the skill, you would think that partial success should always happen (perhaps only healing for 50 or 100 when really low on health)


In conclusion: I feel these changes will greatly add to 1v1 combat for melees making them more competive while at the same time not changing the ganking effect a group of melees have. Additionally I think combat animations and actions should be rechecked for glitches and bugs.

Animation bugs off hand:

1) Failing to exit combat mode (usually says you are too busy, and I believe its caused by canceling a melee attack on a target)

2) Swinging at a target and not having it land at all (basically the attack seems to lag away, not refering to when a target is running from you)

3) Infamous sticky melee gliches

I think in general more player reactions should be allowed such as canceling actions: IE mage canceling a spell in mid animation to change what they wish to do, or melee canceling a charge

Other issues:

1) God moding elixers

2) insta recalls like sanctuary and AL recall (no follow up portal animations allows for a risk free pvp exit)

Also a bug I'd like to mention: In pvp if a player jumps and then dies while in the air, the corpse no longer falls to the ground. A player must relog to watch the corpse fall to the ground. Oddly enough the other player doesnt get this glitch, so they can come and loot their corpse, even though it appears to be in the air to the killer.


I appoligize for my long winded post, but I do hope to get a response on this, and some of my ideas.

[Freakshow]

"((Please take the time to read before posting.


Weeping Wand will have a wider damage range of 70-180 (formerly 110 – 180).






P.S. If you think a mage hits you to hard get a full set of wards.))"


Unspoken, this is for the Hunters Lash spell on the wands .. and nobody uses that for PK/L . The Human Slayer properties havent changed, thus damage from wars have not been affected.


Freakshow

[Leetum_al-Roxor]

TSK hit the nail on the head, and If it is the same TSK that I know was created to kill me it does't superise me.

But healing could use a lot of love, but I find it utterly rediculas that melees get nerfed, yet ONCE again Mages stay the same which in all aspects are actually getting more LOVE...

enough is enough.

[IgntionTDC]

Mages, are fine PvP wise, give them love PvM so they can stop complaining.

Melee fixes, TSK has it.

Archer fixes.

A tweak in animation from which the arrow/bolt/dart leaves the char to the target. Closer you get harder to dodge. This would bring a signifigant increase in the damage rate a missile char does aswell, thus making them more viable for Pk combat.

Speed, a tweak slighty would make an overall change, arrows will be alot harder to dodge, aswell.

Just these two changes can make a missile compete again.

Now I'll lead with my following example.

Say an archer can let off 3 arrows at a clip before the mage wars, doing 35 damage each 35 x 3 = 105, if they all land Now if you tweak animation a bit so where they can get off five arrows with 35 x 5 = 175 overall if all 5 arrows hit it'll be a significant factor in archer play, Thats the over all damage they can do, provided ALL arrows land. At least make it so three arrows have a great chance of landing and archers will be back in the game.

35 is roughly a high/average hit when fully baned / underbaned with 300+ armor, without a crit, I never see 45 hits anymore.

20 x 5 = 100 25 x 5 = 125 30 x 5 = 150 35 x 175, overall if the target is hit 5 times.

Provided they DONT have missile defense.

And these damages are done by the weeping, by then everyone has roughly 200 - 235 health even if you started with 10 end at level 60. But by the time new comers can actually take there crew to get it is around 70's 235 - 250 health 10 end (buffed)

I'm just using numbers, it would be a signifgant increase.

[5150Joker]

Why mess with the weeping wand? What was the reason for increasing the variance?

[iza]

So let me get this straight, you plan to help out the archer in pvp by nerfing the weeping and making sheilds not hollow once more?!?!?!

And your not even goina add the aegis bow(with probably will be worthless) in june?

Melee inbalanced to archers PLZ .....grrrr

[Madgic]

Hiya me again.

Im liking the changes to increase the damage to weeping melee weapons they needed some love and it looks like they may be getting some.

Unfortunatly the age old problem of Mages casting Hollow without having to use a hollow weapon and having a 1 touch heal at their disposal is never going to make PvP fair.

I propose that you make melees healing skill comparable to that of a mage, My melee has 438 healing and uses Blue kits so has a 200 Bonus healing is a skill i have spent almost 3 bill XP on so when i fail to heal myself at all when my health is under half I Kinda have to reconsider weather its worth it????

How about you make the skill of healing dictate the ammount you heal for IE you have to have lets say 250 base healing to use Blue kits But you will have the same chance of healing weather your at 300 health or 1 health much like a mage. Aditionally the action of healing takes the same ammount of time as casting a healing spell so this would make Melee v mage battles fairer.

I know someone will talk about Sticky melee so here goes a comparisen. Mages have Strieks, a striek takes aprox 1 second to cast and does aprox 30-100 damage a UA will hit at about the same speed But against 400+ armour wil only hit for about 1-40. I think if a mage cany take out a sticky melee with strieks before that sticky melee takes them out they should reconsider their abilities. My mage actually loves sticky melee because it means they have to struggle to get away from her spells LOL.

So really we have a few choices here;

(1) Decrease the damage of War spells (not gona happen)
(2) Make melees healing skill work (could happen but I doubt it)
(3) Make mages war spells receive the same decrease in damage as melee weapons do when the oponent is wearing armour (not gonna happen)
(4) Create a aeigis that will be abale to be used with missile weapons, But increase the aegis for all melee so it can receive bonuses to its protects maybe with spells.(wont happen)
(5) As has been said for years Ballance ballance ballance, If My archer can Vuln and Imp a critter and hit for 200 and a mage can do the same and hit for 200 how about the same goes for PvP. (All the time mages run the game NEVER gonn happen)

OK I know this is something you have all heard before but hay one day someone may listen. Oh and if you actualy look at your most loyal members and oldest characters you may find a great percentage of the OLD OLD school are actually melee, so just to let youn know you can do alot more melee love without upsetting as many of the loyal players as you may have thought.

I play a mage and would love to have a challenge against a meleer my mage has melee D so she hits harder than any other weapon type and evades the melees LOL, However I am rubbish at PvP and mages own me everytime. Melees cant beat me because if they do eventually hit me i have a heal self right next to my war spell and if they get into sticky with me i can tank them down with strieks.

Ok My Rant is over sorry it went on LOL

[Hard]

This is absolutely nuts that u are changes melee's damage,, Mages for the most part own up because they hit a much higher damage, 100- 170 and higher with crits,, melees hit baned pkrs for like 20 -50 tops,, it's not even,, mages are the ones that need reduced or bring damage to melees higher

[Drailoch]

"Any mage with over 300 health and armor over al 300 and underbaned, should never lose to a melee in a 1v1 situation." - This **** is BS!

This is seriously stupid, all i do on AC is PvP and very rarely hunt, im a lvl 121 and going mage, i have fully tinked, 450+ base al armor, and some major wards, and some of the only things that kill me are archers and sword, thats it, sometimes ill get someone who has more experiance in PK than i have and they will own me, but that **** abount swords not doing enough damage is BS, same with bows, like i said, some of the only things that kill me is swords and archers, k, thx, now go play AC!

[TSK-AoW]

"Any mage with over 300 health and armor over al 300 and underbaned, should never lose to a melee in a 1v1 situation." - This **** is BS!

This is seriously stupid, all i do on AC is PvP and very rarely hunt, im a lvl 121 and going mage, i have fully tinked, 450+ base al armor, and some major wards, and some of the only things that kill me are archers and sword, thats it, sometimes ill get someone who has more experiance in PK than i have and they will own me, but that **** abount swords not doing enough damage is BS, same with bows, like i said, some of the only things that kill me is swords and archers, k, thx, now go play AC!

As far as pvp experience I have as much as anyone else in this game (Ive pvped since beta); Played on DT for almost 5 years now (since server opened)

Anyways, if you are using armor THAT good AND underbaning (baning a raiment for example) a melee should NEVER hit over 100 full power with crits (possibly slightly over on solls/gaunts/helm since underbanes dont cover that, but i dont think that would happen on al 450 gaunts etc)

Meanwhile you should almost always land a war if they are doing a full power hits. My suggestion is you have someone teach you how to fight against a melee (possibly you are getting owned by not managing your stam/mana properly)

Now your character is low level, and wont have a chance at beating a high level properly equiped sword character, however on the same token, you should never die to the melee either.

[Jyd]

While I am not overjoyed at the changes that Turbine is currently implementing, neither am I crushed (or surprised).
I really only have two comments to make:

1) Introducing wands with tinkerable melee d bonuses and THEN removing the attack bonus on the melee weeping weapons just seems a little strange to me. Magic Defense costs enough that melees would have to gimp their weapons skills in order to get magic defense to any kind of effective level (i.e. taking away from main attributes to fuel focus and self). As it is... if a mage hits a melee with a spell... it hurts... a lot. While a mage, however, can get melee defense to an effective level while still being able to deliver blistering shots with war magic. So, NOW, melees while previously complaining about low damage strikes... will be complaining about not being able to land at all. And if you think I am being unrealistic... my Ua character with 392 base weapon skill went up against a mage with melee a while ago (no idea his level or whatever, kind of irrelevant) and missed him 4 strikes in a row. Disappointing, yes... seeing as how I wasn't hitting him for much damage when I did land.
HOWEVER, I do agree that melees are not geared towards one-v-one vs mages. We have the responsibility, the DUTY, to gank them til they are afeared to walk the earth.


2) This will be much shorter than the last comment. Why raise the damage on a few phantom weapons but NOT ua.... it's damage is ZERO you know. I have used it in pvp and it's just not worth it. If it is supposed to ignore physical armour, I would have thought it would be slightly more effective than it is.

Anyhoo, Just a few thoughts

Also, I sympathize with the archer's plight

[Drailoch]

I DO have armor that good, and i DO know how to fight good, vs archers, melees, mages, ive won numerous ganks against me, consisting of 2+ melees vs me, but that doesnt matter, the Good, and Smartly brought up sword and archers will own just about ANYONE, period.

[Drailoch]

"would have to gimp their weapons skills in order to get magic defense to any kind of effective level (i.e. taking away from main attributes to fuel focus and self). As it is... if a mage hits a melee with a spell... it hurts... a lot. While a mage, however, can get melee defense to an effective level while still being able to deliver blistering shots with war magic"

see, lol, mages would have to do the same thing, but with coord and quickness, lmao, and we dont have enough credits, some of us, war, being 16 to train, then what, 12 or 14 to spec? then, my temp, also have life spec, theres another 12 to train, 10 to spec, am i right? my temp again, i have lore, LP, MANA C, very important, and magic d, so, most of us cant get melee d, so... yah, and alot of us are smart and dont feel like gimping an awsome mage, by pushing xp toward coord and quick for melee, ive had it, trust me, it sucks, k ty.

[TSK-AoW]

DO have armor that good, and i DO know how to fight good, vs archers, melees, mages, ive won numerous ganks against me, consisting of 2+ melees vs me, but that doesnt matter, the Good, and Smartly brought up sword and archers will own just about ANYONE, period.

The fact that you think that archers will own anyone already leads me to believe that 1) you dont buff properly or 2) are not an experienced (or perhaps effective) pvper

Look at pkhunter for example: only one pk out of the top 30 is a melee, and they likely made it there because they killed a high pkhunter ranking mage in a GROUP fight
(granted these numbers are not a good measurement of skill....it does reflect who is doing the killing.)

I dont intend to disrespect you, but you are flat out wrong, and these numbers help prove it.

[Jyd]

Actually Drailoch, you are wrong... life is only 8 to spec.. not 10. And I happen to know some melee mages that are quite happy with their templates... maybe you should investigate other melee mage templates if your's doesn't seem to work.
Plus, as melee d is coord + quick / 3 and magic d is focus + self / 7 I think I have a valid point. It is much less expensive to raise melee d (provided you have it) than it is magic d.

[Drailoch]

well, you know, i dunno if you've seen me fight, or even if your on the same server, but, im pretty good, not as good as ALOT of people, but, i can keep myself alive for a good while if need be.

but thats not the point, see, where mages mage up for not having melee/missle D is their power. In order to even sometimes win, we need to be able to do alot of damage, see, if they nerf our damage, we would be having the same prob, only melees and archers winning and nothing else... see, i think they should raise the damage somewhat, but not much, but mainly for archers. But the sword chars on my server, they are good if they know what they are doing, not running around in circles like a mindless chicken, but just dodging and evading our war spells, and going in for a quick few slashes while we begin casting, and when we are regaining stamina/mana/health. your just underestimating melee's capability.

[Ifuritah]

i have lore, LP, MANA C, very important, and magic d

Lock Pick has NOTHING to do with PK.

Lore might help you activate a few majors, but it is in no way close to necessary in order compete in PK. You just need to get Racial/rank cantrips.

You can effectivly PK with only life trained and war/magicD spec'd.

[IgntionTDC]

Archers need the biggest fix. And they don't own infact they stink, totally useless in pk.

Melee's you hit for 40-50.. I know for a fact that's not for full swing, I've seen sword chars full swing hit alot harder then that, numerous of times, no crits.

Archers need two things to be effective, a slight increase in speed and arrow pathing. That's it.

Then everything will be fine.

Mages hit for 100-175 a pop each time, no need to fix that, an effective Fastcaster can decimate basically anyone but someone with skills just as good or greater than theirs.. Melee's are becoming balanced so other melee's can compete. Melee's can get a slight twink in there speed too, so when they do hit for 40 - 50 fullswing they can get a blow of 2 or 30 thus making the other opponents health lower by 80 - 100.

[Rusty]

Its really sad to see what happens every patch becase you get to see everyone cry, espically the people with no skill. Sure sword should be strong, but the weeping sword is just stupid right now. Unless you have 450 tinked armor all around baned to the teeth you will die in less then 5 hits when imp vulned. Even with good armor its usally doing around 20 dmg a hit +. Weeping is a good idea becuase it gives mages something to worry about, but i belive it does have to be nurfed a bit, not alot a bit. One thing i think is wrong is 100% shield hollow with weeping, its stupid, its made shields utterly useless removing a great part of skill in a fight, what ever happened to lure's ??? ohh thats right they fadded away when weeping showed up, if you imp, vuln, lure someone's shield you will 1 or 2 shot them with weeping, its a great advantage thats why i think weeping should be 0% shield hollow, but they are working on it by making it 90% hollow, I just agree 100% with turbines decsion to nurf a bit and to make the following changes, right now pk has become pathedic at best. Most people imp and vuln if they vuln and just start hacking, or 3 sword people run up to you and hack. There is no stoping this. I remeber when you could survive a 3 on 1 hell a 5 on 1 if you knew what you where doing, not anymore. Good job guys keep up the good work and don't listen to the no skill cry babies that want to 2 shot everyone!

[IgntionTDC]

Originally posted by Rusty
I remeber when you could survive a 3 on 1 hell a 5 on 1 if you knew what you where doing, not anymore. Good job guys keep up the good work and don't listen to the no skill cry babies that want to 2 shot everyone!

Rusty remembers. Rusty is very much right besides two shotting everyone doesn't prove your skill, proves you stink. When it takes 5+ hits to kill someone, and within that short period they can heal up and you can still kill them after all the heals, then you got skill.

If someone can't heal and their good at pk'in, then thats where the problem is.

Fix healing and archery (they can participate because there arrows dont land), the rest is fine.

Other words, improve the pathing and the speed from which the arrow leaves the archer to the opponent, (on low speed)

[Sun Wu]

A minor point -- RAVENOUS WEAPONS.

Make these into another alternative. As it stands they're an in-between stage on the way to a different weapon. Give low/mid level people a reason not to alter the ravenous.

I used the ravenous katar a few dozen times, back in the day. Now it's a phantom that I never use. I killed executors with it (slowly) before resistance rending was introduced.

Of course weeping weapons should be better than either.

[LDub]

Just in case no ones noticed....

War: 32 credits
Sword: 16 credits

Thought I'd point that out...

Also, none of you mages can honestly say you only hit for 90s on a war. Come on. Unless your like level 90 there isn't any reason why you should hit so low. Most mages hit my 148 Sword/Og full wards AND aegis for 130 damage reliably sometimes 160s.

Heres some data on Fire Weepings VS PP tinkered yoroi 440 base all over:
Results:
L: = Low H: = High C: = Crit
Fire
L:12 H:23 C:41
L:21 H:39 C:81
L:33 H:61 C:122

Sword doesn't need a boost or a reduction. The other weapons deserve a little kick up but not much or else sword is worthless.

Just my 2p

[Ivanhoe]

drailoch,
"the Good, and Smartly brought up sword and archers will own just about ANYONE, period."

This couldnt be more false.


Just read what TSK has wrote because its correct.

[Ibn]

Originally posted by Ivanhoe
Sword costs the most let it hit the hardest.

isnt this fair?

It still does hit the hardest of the melee weapons.

[5150Joker]

I think a lot of the whiners are carebear pvp and they have no real concept of real pk anyway and shouldn't be talking. Or they may have ebayed a char and think that qualifies them to speak.

[Erinyes]

Cutting the human slayer effect of weeping melee/archor weapons and not weeping wands is going to have the opposite affect your looking for. Instead of 60% of chars being mages it will turn to 90%. Where’s the diversity in that?

[Silifi Of Death]

I dunno about sword or any other weepings, but axe needs it's speed improved before it can compete at all. At 25 speed, my full power hits go at just about the same speed as a level 7. Sword is overpowered, I understand that. I can't stand up to those either. There has to be some way to balance it out, isntead of Sword and War being at the top, and everyone else not being able to do anything.

[johnny-flex]

Weapons are not the problem templates and max out characters are! Turbine has ruined the risk reward system for melee and mages over the last 2 years.


Most widely used mage template for pvp. grief bm with 100 endurance/100 focus/100 self
when you fight high lvl mages and they got 440-460 buffed war depending on majors etc. 400+ buffed magic d and 400+ buffed life and 400+health. With tinker 400 al amuli buffed withs 7's thats 620 buffed al. Melee and archer dmg vs tinked armor compared to gsa/gsc is very noticablly lower.

now melee have to spec life to even land on this guys unless they are lvl 200 then they have a insane amount of xp they could pump into trained life. Since a normal melee is 100 coord 100 str 100 focus they have low health. Unless they are lvl 200 max in most stuff.
So now you see 100 str 100 focus 100 self . Which is just a mage with a sword. They should have designed wield requirements for certain dmg weeping weapons. Like another class for people with 400 base ua/sowrd axe etc.

Weeping should have a higher lore req to use the spells. Alot of weapons in game do. Weeping wand should too to get some these god mage templates to change to pick up lore for slayer bonus. And then gsc should have higher lore reqiurements so not every melee can wear them. And aegis should have certain requirements to be met. Normal shields have wield requirements and any armor with majors and wards have lore and melee/missle requirements.


long story short a lvl 150ish melee can be sword/magic d spec'd
be 100 str 100 focus and 100 self weild a weeping,wear gsc, and a aegis with 400+ magic d and hit hard as hell and not only tank a few wars but even 1 or 2 resists and dead mage. Especially with the +50 health potion now they can have close to 400 health. Thats if he has no skill and can't dodge,now add him dodging 3 or 4 wars in the mix. Lowering the sword dmg doesn't effect them just means they have to hit a mage 1 more time. But the true melee sword guy who is 100 coord/str/focus will feel the nerf the most. So this fix won't fix sword it will just make everyone be one template now mage with a sword.

And for the person who posted about a mage not being able to do a 5 vs 1 anymore. Boo frikken whoo 5 vs 1 you shouldn't be able to do anyways unless they really really suck. I know pk isn't always 1 vs 1. But if you can't handle dying to a group bring friends with you to keep the melee off ya.


And archers should get some love,i have pk'd for a long time and only died a handful of times to bow in group battle and not once in a 1 vs 1.

[IgntionTDC]

Mages are fine, Swords are fine, all the other melee's will be fine. Soon as the problem with arrows not landing everything will be perfect.

Done.

[Rojon]

The weeping bow gets to keep its melee defense bonus, but the melee weapons get no missle defense bonus?

That hardly seems fair, or balanced.

[ArtilexOfDarkti]

Wrong again, you nerf one, nerf them all... mages can 2 hit anyone, especially melees. Sword needed to be reduced a little, but sword is not that almight, the people that complain about it are the people who don't want to make good suits, if someone would take the time to make a decent tinkered suit, the max you'd be hit for is 120-130 on critical. The likelyhood of getting criticalled 3 times in a row is quite rare, even then, thats not exactly enough to kill some people these days. From the sounds of it, you are making it more difficult for melee 1 v 1... nerfing the weepings, but then re intrducing hollows/phantoms. Phantoms... major blade vuln... pretty much cancels those out. Hollows, unless these are 6 times the damage, will still rather useless since a large population has tinkered suits or gsc.

Nerf one, nerf them all, don't give another class an advantage... again.

Or... don't nerf anything... fix archers and archers only, everything is fine based upon the credits people spend on them. Ranged weapons need a little help, that is all.

A good mage can kill a melee, a good melee can kill a mage. If they are both good, it is an equally difficult fight that can go either way. Leave it be!

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by johnny-flex



long story short a lvl 150ish melee can be sword/magic d spec'd
be 100 str 100 focus and 100 self weild a weeping,wear gsc, and a aegis with 400+ magic d and hit hard as hell and not only tank a few wars but even 1 or 2 resists and dead mage. Especially with the +50 health potion now they can have close to 400 health. Thats if he has no skill and can't dodge,now add him dodging 3 or 4 wars in the mix. Lowering the sword dmg doesn't effect them just means they have to hit a mage 1 more time. But the true melee sword guy who is 100 coord/str/focus will feel the nerf the most. So this fix won't fix sword it will just make everyone be one template now mage with a sword.



Thing is, the way the game is setup you're required to be a magic casting character, this has been known since the games inception. If they were willing to remove sticky melee and give rending melee weapons uber damaging power I'd be totally for it. However, IMO sticky is a big advantage for melees considering mages can't runcast anymore so the weeping sword needed nerfing. I just did a test on my lvl 90 sword against a 123 mage I got that was fully baned + underbaned with raiment and at low power I crit the mage for 80 pts and was averaging 20-30 pts a shot. Granted the mage was only wearing GSC but the damage was still too excessive, esp. for a level 90 sword guy. Fully tinked out guys with wards + maxed out chars isn't as common as you make it out. If you run around bobo during large pk fights you see most guys wearing gsa/gsc.

[Rusty]

This response is towards johnny-flex comments.

*******************************************
And for the person who posted about a mage not being able to do a 5 vs 1 anymore. Boo frikken whoo 5 vs 1 you shouldn't be able to do anyways unless they really really suck. I know pk isn't always 1 vs 1. But if you can't handle dying to a group bring friends with you to keep the melee off ya.
*******************************************

Well if you read my statement more clearly i said you used to be able to take a 3on1 hell even a 5on1 in cases, for mages right now if your good at dodging you could still take a 5on1 with luck, or at least fight back, but with 3 sword users with stick on you, its like your already dead. You can't even imp vuln a guy fast enough without being killed with 3 sword guys on you. Sure if you get jumped by 3 people you should probably die, all i'm saying is you should have a chance to fight back not just stand there and die. Your should at the least be able to kill one, hopefully this will be the case when weeping becuase only 90% shield hollow, still think they should be 0% shield hollow sence they are really made for mage slaying. Bring back the use of shields and lures ! Amen

[IgntionTDC]

All depends on your level :|

[Care Police]

Tbh, I believe all these nerfs are terrible and will ruin PvP more than help. :mad:

[Chu]

I dont play AC anymore so i may not know what I talking about (RL prohibits it), but I still enjoy following it. Anyhow, SOME mages think they should be allowed more damage because war costs more skillpoints than other weapons. Well for me, I'd rather play the character I want to play with the weapon I think is coolest than worry about it not costing the most therefore being inferior to others in PvP. Its a game, a RPG, you should play what you what and because you are PAYING for it, you should expect to be balanced with other classes regardless of your weapon. This is just my opinion.

[IgntionTDC]

Mages don't need to hit any harder, an effective fastcaster, can kill someone with ease.

Sword got dropped a little, and the other ones are being brought up.

Archers are gettin love too, you haven't even played with these changes how do you know what they'll do?

[Ryakki]

I have a hybrid sword/mage. 380 base sword skill, 350 base war skill, 280 base health.

With my wand, I can consistantly kill every melee and archer that comes my way, over and over. Yesterday, I killed a group of 2 archers and one dagger character by myself. I'm not the best at fighting mages, but at least it's a 50/50 ratio.

With my sword... it's pointless. I can't kill anyone even near my level one on one. When it comes to group play having the Aegis out to absorb some magic damage is nice, and for support it's certainly nice, but anyone with half a brain can heal or jump-spin their way out of dying to me. I simply don't do enough damage in 1v1 and in group jump-spin and having to stand still to attack just destroy me.


You know the irony? I have sooo much more keyboard skill with sword, lol. I'm a joke of a mage.


Again, lowering melee damage overall... what the ^&$$ are you thinking? No nerf for mages... what the ^&$$ are you thinking?

Just pk for a week on a 0.o server where you'll experience at least *some* balanced fights and then tell me that melees, all melees, do anything other then suck.

[Ivanhoe]

Originally posted by Ibn
It still does hit the hardest of the melee weapons.

Yes but the point is it was fine where it was. and no nerf was needed.

bumping up the rest is ok with the exception of UA,dagger and staff which are all free skills and cost the least to spec.


fix exploits. fix archers.

and then u can slowly work on the other melee skills either by giving them more options in pvp or uping there damages slightly but there should always be a Good and noticeable damage between sword and less credit melee skills.

[Ghent]

I'm not sure I follow all the reasoning for the changes but generally I'm comfortable with them, particularly as I just changed my archer to an axer a day before this news came out.

Swordsmen will probably have an incentive to become axers, now, too, to pick up another 4 skill credits.

I'm not one of these people who thinks even sword was overpowered. Against really good tinked armor you just didn't hit for that much. The people who whine about swordsmen are usually those wearing weak armor such as a knorr helm.

I have no clue what the upshot of the phantom/hollow changes will be, but I will test them out next patch for giggles.

[Jessandra]

Sword doesen't need dropped. I play a 138 sword on TD and let me tell you, I am not equal to any mage above level 80. I'm sick of hearing about sticky in pk because frankly if sticky bothers you that is because you run away too damn much. Sword players can't even use sticky because it's more likely to get you killed when lag prevents you from breaking off attack to dodge a war... and it's not like we even hit at a fast enough rate to chase people who run.

If war spells were so damn easy to dodge you would see a lot more melee pk's on carebear servers. fact is spell mechanics and server lag make it a very challenging task. You have to be very skilled to dodge a spell at close range so you end up putting distance between you and the caster. Then combine the wind up for attacking with a sword at full power and it comes down to this. People who just sit there and chain cast war spells will almost never get hit at all. I've found that the only way a melee kills a high level mage is to manage to live long enough to catch them making a strategic mistake and take advantage of it. Mages that whine that melees are killing them all the time are either fighting too many at once, are fighting ppl way above their level, or just plain suck

I prefer unarmed for pk but unarmed are insanely difficult to break off sticky to dodge a war spell. All melees have a lag to break off repeat attack and server attack massively amplifies it. I can't count the number of times I turned and moved away to break attack and dodge a war spell and my toon turned around and ran back to attack some more while eating a killing spell head on. You want to balance pk? work on that. I believe it takes far more skill to play a melee pk than anything else. Archers and melees are about matched with eachother as long as I can remember, while mages are dynamically blessed to heal fastest, do the most damage, change damage elements instantly, etc.. while we're all left scrambling from spells and trying to do a little damage in the meantime

I applaud fixing the hollows but you need to do more. The only time a person uses a holllow these days is on DT when you find the occasional lazy newb in a robe. The melee phantom needs a small damage increase to counteract wards being on every character

there needs to be tinkering balance as well. and wards are screwing everything except the players with the most loot. people are running around in 400+ base armor with all 7 wards and major armor spell. you vuln level 7's and a full swing weeping sword starts hitting for 17's........ don't try to tell me that I am overpowered.

before majors/wards/high dmg weapons/tinkering pk was well balanced and fair.... and more enjoyable

[Ivanhoe]

exactly ghent.

i dont know what the dmgs will be between axe and sword but 4 credits is a lot for pvp template and if it is only a few points of damage all sword char may very well switch to axe....

and then what?

nerf axe too?

Sword wasnt over powered at all. And they nerf it.

What was over powered was the weeping wand and they leave it as is............


Turbine ,
We know mages cost a lot of credits.
And they should be the most powerful chars because of this.

THEY already Are the most powerfull.

Nerfing non mages make no sense at all just helps mage out when they need ZERO help. Same goes with a mage type ageis item. Makes NO SENSE AT ALL.

[Chu]

*sarcasm*
One way to solve this is make armor that has a 90% resistance to magic.
*/sarcasm*
When the first devs made this game, I believe they meant for mages to be range characters, thus their magic costs alot of skill points. Think about it. War magic, creature amgic (buffs), life magic (protection buffs), item magic (protection buffs). Life and item magic = melee/missle d for mages (not saying it is, just should be equal in way). That way, mages could kill stuff from a distance and when they get close they could stand a chance with their protections. Now you give em a super PK weapon, 400+ base al armor, buffed undies, and life/item protects. You give them spells to weaken their opponents (life/item/creature) to make them weak. Yes mages are OVERpowered!

Mages should not be able to wear such high al armor. In the midevil times, archers didnt even wear heavy armor. The ones that did were the knights (swords/maces/axes/ect). I not sure how realistic you want this game to be. Make it so maged cant wear high lvl armor and allow ring spells with much greater damage that affect PCs only so they can attack multiple melee. I think meleers would rather fight a mage who didnt have such ridiculously high al armor, undies, buffs, and had a slightly stronger ring spell than those who had those save the ring spell.

*sarcasm*
Your going about it all wrong! If you want to nerf the melee, take away their weapons and armor. Make them fight with their hands naked!!!!! THAT WOULD DEFINATELY BALANCE PvP!!!!!
*/sarcasm*

[Frank The Knife]

Just wondering if I am correct.

I crit warded double baned GSC for 106 on a full power swing.

Cold weeping with lvl VII vuln/Imp.

I have 342 buffed strength .

With a -14% drop in damage I will crit for 91 ?

Crits are a 1 in 10 chance?

I crit warded base AL 417 double baned armor for 87.

With the -14% drop in damage I will crit for 74 ?

Doesnt look like anyone in decent armor will have anything to fear from a melee after this patch.

A pk with the right wards, high health and armor will be able to laugh in the face of just about any melee.

[nd10]

or allow that sword should be much more powerful then axe, and axe more powerful than staff, ect ect.

giving up the pts for a heavy melee wep means fewer support or magic skills and since magic skills are the central power in this game, there should be some payoff for going melee (or simply remove the skills)


thx

pat

[Jessandra]

__________________________________________________ _
nd10

either make melee skills all one price
or allow that sword should be much more powerful then axe, and axe more powerful than staff, ect ect.

giving up the pts for a heavy melee wep means fewer support or magic skills and since magic skills are the central power in this game, there should be some payoff for going melee (or simply remove the skills)
__________________________________________________ _


What are you talking about exactly? fewer support or magic skills?

I play a 138 sword right now, sword is 10 points more than unarmed.... so all that means to me is I have melee def trained instead of spec

I am spec sword life critter, I buff life/crit to over 400 skill which is more than sufficient to solo in vod and probably anywhere else...

so how are we so goddamn crippled? I agree that sword needs more damage in the case of pvp but as characters compare in pvm we need nothing

and sword does in fact do more damage than axe, and both do more than staff........ have you ever played any other classes?

[Sito]

Originally posted by Frank The Knife


I crit warded base AL 417 double baned armor for 87....

A pk with the right wards, high health and armor will be able to laugh in the face of just about any melee.


People have all major wards on +400al armor?

I find that very unlikely. There was only one month where really low value armor dropped. I would suspect that the ammout of major wards dropped were not great. Add to that any newer armor would have a higher value which would ether require pine to reduce value (lowering max possable AL) or would be high enough value that if/when that person dies you have a major DI cash cow.

On top of that if your suit is all major wards you don't have other majors. You can't have everything. Even if you could have everything not everyone could have everything.

You might also get more then one attack type and use multiple elements in a fight instead of only one.

It is better to use a real world example rather then use the worst and least likely nearly impossable case.

[Frank The Knife]

Some people do have super armor. Its part of the melee imbalance.

Just use GSC combined with tinkered ward armor and switch out girths to whatever ward you need.

Its easier to put a suit like this together than you think.

[Haus der Liebe]

"The ability to find and tinker loot-generated weapons and casters that are comparable to or better than the Weeping Weapons is in-concept currently."

Finding weapons that are close to max damage, I'm not talking max, I'm talking close to are nearly impossible in today's loot gen .. I often times find myself tinkering items that are 6 and 7 pts below there max damage simply cause they're the only weapons that are c5 or lower .. anytime I find something close to max, it's c8 or c9 and can only get 5 or 6 tinks out of it .. so, I get the same number with the lower craft, lower damage, lower value weapons ..

finding weapons that are close to max, low value and 2pts lower in craft would be nice

[nuke2033]

Good:

increasing damage of hollow weapons
human slayer imbue
decreasing attack/melee bonus


bad:

nerfing some weapons(sword in particular) and raising the cheapskate weapons...you should get what you pay for.
UA is already overpowered for a skill that only costs 6 to spec, it's ridiculous to improve their damage.
Not doing anything worth mentioning to the weeping wand, that thing does too much damage.

[Ryakki]

Sword should not be the all-powerful, untouchable melee weapon just because it costs afew points more. What does 10 or 12 points really mean, after all? Credits should mean something, but all melee weapons should be viable to some degree. Right now they're simply not.


To tell the truth, where sword is right now... being able to kill someone only if unbuffed or utterly stupid... is about where dagger should be, lol. Actually, I'd like to see dagger doing a bit better then the ~100 crits maxed sword characters seem to be getting on good armor right now, that's just pathetic.

Let's see dagger critting for 120 and sword for 160, mages with a hint of talent actually dying once in a while, what's the harm?

[-Nosferatu-]

Originally posted by Scout X
I don't know where to begin, but here i go...

all melee, including sword should have damaged increased, dont exclude sword...

The DoT on the sword may be at "what you want" but DoT means nothing if the time factor is ignored because you have to run for you friggin life just because a mage starts charging up. which brings me to the next part...

how can the weeping wand be left unchanged and be considered ok? People say "Oh its so easy to dodge" so... you want a cookie? All you need to do is fail dodging twice, and you WILL die. I don't see this happening with any other weeping weapon? It's very easy to dodge bow, but if you fail to dodge arrows twice in a row, are you ANYWHERE near death? maybe like 3/4 hp.... so anyone can stand there and heal if necessary if they cant dodge the arrow. In a mages case though, if you even think about standing there, you just die... simple as that..

I myself am bow. ATM if i attack a mage i completely vuln up, i can get a streak of 4 hits and the guy can pull out just fine. But the minute i see his wind up, its time to fend for dear life.... I want a mage to have to fend for his life cuz i hit him once, too.

Sword damage inscreased? Maybe others should have been maybe not, I say none should have been touched and sword dropped. As a mage yes I am biased, but honestly don't feel this is what makes me choose that path of melee damage. I used to love fighting in group fights and mages being able to do so also. Now a group fight is determined by how many melees each side has. 2-3 melees used to have a good time killing a mage, while he might be able to take 1 out. Now 2-3 melees and a mage is dead in literally, about 5 secs, 10 if they use a s2h.

The weeping was changed. Maybe not the damage, but the mana c was changed, and you will see mages casting their revits and all about 3-8 spells earlier due to this. And it is easy to dodge wars. By your own stats, all a bower has to do is hit a mage 8 times to kill him. Wait until the mage is casting his revits and stuff, get IN HIS FACE, and machine gun. This is a great way to get some really fast, big damage and put the mage in a huge defensive. And yeah, you can stand around and heal from the arrows until the server dies, but that wont kill the other person, which is what PvP is all about.

EDIT: Though I do think other melees should have gotten a very slight tweak, I don't think they should have gotten any more(if they did) as it again, does not encourage group fighting in the least.

[Frank The Knife]

I doubt this will have any effect on group fights. Three melee swords will still be able to take down one person nerf or not.

This is a direct nerf to the solo melee. With this nerf you will see even more melee sword gank squads.

[Jessandra]

__________________________________________________

Haus der Liebe

Finding weapons that are close to max damage, I'm not talking max, I'm talking close to are nearly impossible in today's loot gen .. I often times find myself tinkering items that are 6 and 7 pts below there max damage simply cause they're the only weapons that are c5 or lower .. anytime I find something close to max, it's c8 or c9 and can only get 5 or 6 tinks out of it .. so, I get the same number with the lower craft, lower damage, lower value weapons ..

finding weapons that are close to max, low value and 2pts lower in craft would be nice
__________________________________________________ __


hmmm lets see now, if you get a 20-40 wk7 and we'll say you can only do 6 tinks compared to a 18-36 wk4 where you can get 10?



20-40, imbue, 5 granite and and you get something like
39-40 or whatever

18-36, imbue, 5 granite, and 4 iron and you get

............. the same thing??

it is not much of a big deal to be able to do 10 tinks on sword, axe, or other stuff.......... the difference is negligible. it's much more important to be able to on a UA or dagger or staff and if you hadn't noticed those weapons drop so often it's much easier to find a max tink capable one

[Shdw]

Well as we all know when weeping weapons came out they ruined true pvp because they eliminated one of AC's greatest allies, versatility. Lets start from back when focusing stone was out prior to any tinkering. You had a few options, none with any great advantage over another, you could choose a regular wand, a special quest wand that would buff a stat here or there, like the focusing stone. Then imbues and tinkering came out, this was great it added more versatility, you were going in the right direction. Now people could use regular wands with mana c bonuses or they could pick a focusing stone, suffering the loss of mana c bonus but gaining 6 points to their magics, great for melees, or they could get one of 2 imbues in a mages aspect. This was all the same with melees, with imbues came more options and the more options you have the better the game play. THEN YOU CAME OUT WITH WEEPINGS, a quest item which was SOOOO amazing that if you had it there was no need to EVER look for another item to pk with. This was absolutly one of the dumbest things you added to the game, human slayer is great, but you wanna know how you should make it?
Here is what you need to do, weepings need to be changed to monster slayer, like in the old days, the real reason for doing a quest was primarily for a better weapon to kill monsters with that you didn't care to drop cause you were fighting monsters. Then you take imbues and make some salvage type that adds human slayer, and to make things even more interesting make it so you can imbue up to 3 times. You pick the percentage but I would think that it should go something like this, with 500 skill being the max for the imbue, imbue 1 would be 50 percent imbue 2 would be the usually 33 percent and imbue 3 would be a 20 percent chance. This would REALLY increase trading and imbuing in the game. Imagin having a sword or any weapon with armor rendering, human slayer, and cold rend or any other type of rend. With this change you would need to decrease the damage of a sword but it would probably bring all other melee weapons up to speed with sword with only a minor decrease in sword say a max of 18-35 or something like that, you test it. You could also with this have a wand with human slayer, critical strike and crippling blow. Of course you would have to be VERY lucky and would probably blow up 30 or more weapons/wands trying to get just one good one but it would give you a great advantage in the pk world. If you don't like the idea of 3 at least allow a double imbue and at least make human slayer and imbue. ALSO DEFINATLY GET RID OF HUMAN SLAYER ON WEEPINGS IT IS ABSOLUTLY REDICUOUS. If your affraid mages will loose the advantage with this double and tripple imbue, then simply bring back spell econ, I know I miss it and I am sure many others do to. Once again it was a decrease in GOOD versatility, having to vuln someone for 3 or 4 elements just so you could get the max economy out of your hits.
In conclusion you should look at this for a new goal quest items = monster killing and OK player killing items, imbued/tinkered items = the items that GOOD pkers will/should use.
P.S. sorry for the jumbled paragraphs its 2 am and I don't have time to write you a proper essay, if you have any quesions feel free to ask or get to me ingame on DT(the only true pvp server) as Shdw Assasin. Thank you all.

[TSK-AoW]

I still await a post from IBN on my initial post on this thread, Please lend me some oppinions on my post.

[IgntionTDC]

I don't know anything about melee chars so bear with me, are crits for melee pretty much random? Or can you get a rather good guess at when they're coming?

As far as mages being overpowered, work faster, mages are real slow you can land three shots on them prior to them landing one on you. The only thing that can screw you up is an effective FC'er or someone who can release delays perfectly. Besides dodging wars are easy to dodge, people who know how to fight, can dodge wars easy.

So, For every 5 wars some melee or archer who knows how to fight gets hit once. For every time a mages cast, you should be getting in there hitting 3 good shots 40-60.

Let's do a calculation. 400*5=200, and that's 15 swings, so add 1 crit, bout 100. 300 Damage in that time.

A mage does 100-175 everytime they get a hit rougly 1 war out of 5 casts.

These are the average Pk's.

Melee's arent underpowered, they have a way better DoT.

Now once archer connects with it's opponent, they'll have a better DoT and mages will be dusted, for the average player.

--

When you get in to a first rate fighter, you cant really do a calculation, or explain the damage because it's a tough fight.

Just numbers and such I'm not sure how much a melee actually does.

[zenoth]

to bad dot has little to nothing to do with pkl or pk kill rates,

if my form of dammage did very consistant low dammage; over

time it would have a very high dot, but in pk and pkl its the big

dammage that happens immediately that gets the kill.

so yes lets raise mage dot up to acceptable levels, but on the

other side of the issue the balance is mage dot is lower, but mage

kill rate in pk and pkl rain supreme, so if mage dot is equal or

better, we have to lower to the same amount the pk and pkl

kill rate or to boost other dammage type kill rates,

so maybe to be even( everyone can dodge war spells)


how about lets keep the missile dodging simple as it is now but

up its kill rate by allowing for 100 plus single hits per shot

yes equal does sound extrme dont it?

o well i am glad this is not my decision,

do well turbine, we have hope it will get better...........

[Rusty]

What i'm kinda sick of seeing is all these o.O complaining and driving pk, its bs in my mind, if you want to PK come to DT where most of the population is, on DT not EVERYONE is in al 400+ tink warded armor, becuase we don't have the trade market that o.0 does. Come over to DT and go to the marketplace see what you find it will be yoru corpse. Granted there is alot of high lvls on DT with good armor and lots of health i don't argue this, but there is also alot people not in the catagory or don't want the game to be gear realated. All these people are like ohhhh if your in al 400+ tinked warded armor booh hooo i can't kill anyone, the game is turning into a gear / lvl based game not skill, skill has been slowly removed bit by bit. Here is my thoughts on what would balanced it a bit.

Weeping Weapon Changes:
0-50% shield hollow all though i think it should be 0%, they made Lures for a reason.

Bring back item dispell spells so you can dispell a shield that is baned.

Nurfing sword wouldn't matter to me if weeping wasn't 100% shield hollow becuase at least melee could defend agenst it, weeping was made as mage bait, to give mages something to fear.

Fast Casting - elminated permitently or make it extreamly hard and not worth the time to do it outside of buffing.

Spells - every spell should have a diffrent spell word, even arcs to give a melee a good chance at dodging, you have a mage switching his spells around on you, it only makes it even harder to get in there to take some hits. I don't think mages have that hard of a time killing melee's unless atm they have 3 sword guys hitting them.

[IgntionTDC]

Fast Casting - elminated permitently or make it extreamly hard and not worth the time to do it outside of buffing.

I disagree, it's very useful to the mage community.

Within that time you get Zenoth, every melee has a great chance of killing their opponent providing they can deal out that 300 damage, but thats all within their skill, 1 war rarely dictates a fight it's all within the player, (unless one of them has low health or a level issue, those are contributing factors).

[Ivanhoe]

1 war makes or breaks a fight.

fights pretty much come down to if the mage can get that last 1 war on his target.for the most part 2 wars still kill a High % of characters. So i would say 1 war always makes a difference.

[IgntionTDC]

If you're good it doesn't.

[Silifi Of Death]

The problem here is that Mages cost the most credits, but there is NOTHING to compete with it. Magic D can help, but that is based on Focus and Self, something most Melees don't have enough of. We have a huge balancing act. In order to be capable of killing in PvM, we have to have Melee D trained at least, and in order to PK, Spec Magic D or Spec Life. We need all sorts of different stats to be high. Strength, Endurance, Coordination, Quickness, and Focus. Mages don't need Coord or Quick or even very much strength. Melees do. I can't effectively group battle because I have to bring Tinked armor for Melees, and GS for mages. We have to balance around armor, stats, everything. A Mage temp is too simple. They have no use for Coord or Quickness, while a Melee requires High Focus. A mage doesn't need Melee D at all, they have 10 more credits than we do at least. Melees have no good skill with which to counter a mage. What we need is either a new skill based on Coord, which makes us more effective against mages, or Magic D needs to be altered to be based on Coord, Quickness, or Strength.

[Rusty]

The only bad thing about fast casting if its done correctly is that a melee can't get in range, if he does its for 1 - 2 hits tops, this makes fighting a mage unfair, you can't disagree with that, and don't go and change your tone saying you get 2 shoted, sence everyone has been complaining this WHOLE fourm that there not doing enough damage. Also lets say a sword guy is hitting with full tinked 400+ armor for 100 dmg a hit just for fun, thats still 2 1/2 hits on most mages which this will almost never happend becuase 100 would be a crit and one heck of one. So with fast casting the melee's can't get into range and thats the disadvantage in Mage Vs Melee and it should be elminated.

[Frank The Knife]

I agree and for a free skill (magic defence) it should be based on stats all templates use.

ie. Focus / Coordination


Magic defence in its present state is far more overpowered than sword or war magic ever is or will be.


Edit- No mage isnt gonna pound the Stam the health key or heal key after two big crits. Thus eraseing the work it takes to wear a mage down. It comes down to big crits once the mage is at or below 1/2 health. If you come up low on the damage, dont crit or try to tank odds are your gonna die. If you dont die then the wear down process starts all over again.

[Zuz]

Right now i think UA should be nerfed big time just because you only need 6 credits to spec and none to train, get mace/spear/axe some loving for melees, get bow/xbow/TW loving for archers dont do anything with mages nor swords. mages are pretty powerfull as well as swords, if you know how to play a mage you will beat a sword guy anyday with a good armor/wards.

the aegis idea isnt bad but if you want to get archers more powerfull their bows should ignore the aegis 100% still.

its 2am so im gonna go

[Rusty]

Nurfing UA ?? are you crazy ?? do you want UA to be utterly useless ?? you don't see UA char's doing nearly the crits swords do or the dmg. Who cares if its free to take, so is dagger do u want to nurf that 2 ?? its a benfit of going that route. I really don't see the balance issue there, you pay more credits for Sword / War magic and you do way more damage for thouse credits and so on. Plus everyone is so high lvl you make up thouse credits in no time anyhow. Currently its a fair trade and i don't see any reason to nurf ua or any other starting stat.
what needs to be worked on is the balance issues with weeping, its shield hollow, archers, and so on.

[Silver]

As a swordsman with 325 buffed str, i have a hard time fighting mages in tinkered armor

Now i dont care much about the modifiers being removed, but dmg for the weeping sword was good the way it was

All other melee weapons are not supposed to be comparable to sword, since it costs 16 credits to spec and the others cost 12 only


All i can say about this changes is

1.- (negative comment) way to keep screwing up the game with every change you make

2.- (positive comment) Do not implement this changes please... it's still like 2 weeks for june patch, please DON'T implement this changes if you dont want to do double work and have them changed back to normal on subsqeuent patches

[KriegPfeil]

Don't know if it will get seen at all at this point but I would like to see damage scale up as your skill level goes up. Right now a person can start with 100 Str/Focus/Self and only train sword and do the same damage as someone with 100 in Strength and Coord and spec sword if their strength is the same and if they pumped enough exp into sword to meet the wield req. It would make sense to me that damage would be based on not only the strength of the person wielding the sword but on the skill with which he wields it.

[Ryakki]

Melees cannot solo mages with the slightest idea of how to pk.

Archers cannot solo mages with the slightest idea of how to pk.

Mages cost the least overall credits.

Many pks' hate tinkering and want nothing to do with loot items whatsoever.



These are simple facts, please keep them in mind.

[IgntionTDC]

Rusty, I agree if fastcasting is done correctly it's damn near impossible for a melee to get in on a mage. But it does not need to be elminated, there's ways I know to completey dodge FC.

As for the Magic Defense situation, I don't think it should be able to go as high spec, or spec/ not as effective, but thats just me. Personally I like CLaW because all I use to fight is War and Life, Critter is for hunting/buffing purposes.

Having Magic D based on a Melee's stats, thats like having Melee based on mages stats.

As for the sword bit, I dont really care I hate melee, I don't have the patience or time to work such a template, requires someone with alot more will and effort then me.

PS. I don't want to have a dominate template, I want a dominate skill. With imbalance, you cant really say who is the best fighter in this game, because right now it's alot of template.

Originally posted by Ryakki
Melees cannot solo mages with the slightest idea of how to pk.

Archers cannot solo mages with the slightest idea of how to pk.



I disagree, I had my archer 150 health, just lvl VI imp and fire vuln, 120 mod bow lvl 37 (life archer)

take a 100 end focus self bm, lvl 69 with VII vulns on me and VII shots..

I never got hit obviously, or i would have died.

and i was hitting for 19-22's crits ranged from 30-50.


Template = PvM|Skill= PvP

[Freakshow]

Sorry ... had to laugh .. if your basing your PK/L observations and input on one fight betweeen a lvl 69 mage and a lvl 37 archer, please dont bother.

Individual fights mean nothing, I killed a lvl 154 mage on my xbow char the other night. Does that mean that mages should ph34r teh ubah xbow char?! pfft I think we all know the truth here, making silly observations for mere arguments sake is pointless and a waste of time, lets stick to the facts....


Melees finally have a template that can kill mages 1/3 the time and mages dont like it...so out comes the nerf stick.

Archers suck in pvp, have for a looong time, and now the bow will suck slightly less but xbow will suck more.(until they fix tracking)

Mages go untouched and can continue to be the only real 1 v 1 pvp template to play.

thems the facts.



Freakshow 126+ xbow
Rubbin' Hood 126+mage
and several others round 100

[Stonefree]

Please do not nerf the xbow further. It has a very slow animation speed. and it makes it hard to evade incoming arrows and spells. They should have a benefit og high damage.

if you cant fix the animation keep the damage or even raise it.

There is a reason why there is so few xbow pvp players.

[IgntionTDC]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Freakshow
Sorry ... had to laugh .. [/QUOTE]

He said it CANT be done, well I did it. It was kill or be killed, archers do suck but someone knowing how to use them has a great chance of not dying, just not killing either.

Don't tell me it can't be done, I've done it.

You laugh, but I will beat the odds, guaranteed.

[Goldmember]

Originally posted by Frank The Knife
Just wondering if I am correct.

I crit warded double baned GSC for 106 on a full power swing.

Cold weeping with lvl VII vuln/Imp.

I have 342 buffed strength .

With a -14% drop in damage I will crit for 91 ?

Crits are a 1 in 10 chance?

I crit warded base AL 417 double baned armor for 87.

With the -14% drop in damage I will crit for 74 ?

Doesnt look like anyone in decent armor will have anything to fear from a melee after this patch.

A pk with the right wards, high health and armor will be able to laugh in the face of just about any melee.

EXACTLY! I can see this going real bad for the sword chars. Turbine needs to stop redoing things *they* made sure was balanced in the first place.

THINK, TURBINE. THINK!

[Giver Of Hope]

I keep hearing all these melees talking about wanting sword to hit for as much as war!! what?? ya war hits for more damage then melee. However by time I can cast one level VII spell they can hit you 3-4 times. and good melees can hit you that many times, dodge, then be right back on you. so if the sword is hitting mage for say avarage 50, he can get 3 shots in to every war spell that totals about 150. Stop complaining. War does alot of damage but good melees dodge it and it's slow. heard some peeps say they would like sword to hit for like 100+ like war does. so with say 3 hits that's over 300 damage.

[Darkened Light]

What about melee bonus on wand ?

[Dom on TD]

Originally posted by Rusty
What i'm kinda sick of seeing is all these o.O complaining and driving pk, its bs in my mind, if you want to PK come to DT where most of the population is, on DT not EVERYONE is in al 400+ tink warded armor, becuase we don't have the trade market that o.0 does.


What's an o.0? Does it stand for something? I see Dters calling people that all the time, but I just don't get it.

[Ibn]

As I understand it, it's a visual representation of the "Care Bear Stare". So it's used to refer to NPKs, aka Care Bears.

I just want to know how it's pronounced.

[Lutieus]

^ Right-o. Also can refer to people who, in the speaker's opinion, play on DT but do not belong there--i.e., those who always run from fights, won't fight without odds in their favor, complain when attacked, or whatever. Pronounced "carebear" out loud, and either "carebear" or "oh-oh" mentally, depending on the reader.

Speaking of o.O, any word on whether the engineers might be able to get rid of war detection?

[minimafia]

Ibn its more of a term used for those who cant handle things that happen in game

Alot of them from o.O servers, the ones that complain about every little thing they dont like

[Batosie]

^ like the o.O's who complain when u loot em saying ur stealing

[Heideggar]

Ibn, I may get banned for what my circle of friends think 0.o stands for : )

Has to deal with noobs, frostfell, and weak individuals who cowar at the sight of a challenge.

That's the nicest way I can put it without getting banned.

Prounounce it: Goobarsuperstar : )

Dunno hehe, more of a character representing a meaning, than a word so to speak. Like hyroglyphics : ) Symbols = meaning. Not so big on verbal representations hehe.

[magusofatlan]

Originally posted by minimafia
Ibn its more of a term used for those who cant handle things that happen in game

Alot of them from o.O servers, the ones that complain about every little thing they dont like

That cracks me up, as it fits many DT people who frequent the various boards...

[xijin]

or white dots that complain that the bathrobe covers the feet so they cant wear bunny slippers.....


O.o i always pronounced it Oooh Oooh


Back to the topic at hand, so Ibn when you gonna stop screwing up pvp and making changes that do the exact opposite of fixing it

oh and Bow fix? hello?

[Dom on TD]

TY for clearing that up.

[Sassy Dawn]

OK, I have three things that come to mind after reading (and yes I read them all).

1. Why nerf X-Bow? We are the slowest and do less damage than anyone in the PvP scene. So much so that most of us have made other type (Mage) chars to Pk with. PLS fix the SLOWWWW animation, LOL even the monsters get a nap while we load our X-Bows.

2. If you have something to say here, Please write it down then READ it - ALL of it, then CUT it in HALF. Some of these half of a page long posts are just toooooooooooooo much :( . You can say as much with so many fewer words, just try it I am sure Ibn would appriciate it, as would the rest of us :)

3. If you dont play AC anymore or as one posted
"Im staying away from paying turbine monthly until they show me they know what they are doing in regards to pvp." Then IMHO you have no right to be here posting your thoughts on OUR GAME. YOU PAY TO PLAY OR BYE BYE
:rolleyes:

[Paco_Taco_TD]

Im totally against these changes except for increasing bow strength and the lower echelon weapons : UA, Staff, Dagger, Spear, Mace

Axe, Sword, xbow, TW and mage are fine where they are at

dont negate the bonus to melee, why would someone spec melee then? thats totally stupid

[Some weird guy]

Although the Weeping Sword, Atlatl, and Crossbow will see a slight reduction in damage, all other Weeping Weapons will have increased damage, making them more competitive than they were previously.

So as I understand this, Bow is going to get a small increase while Xbow takes a small hit...?

Not sure how to react to this, I *hate* seeing people get nerfed, but I firmly agree that bow and xbow do need to be seperated a bit, and not just in PvP.

The only other way would have been a cost adjustment, as this was/is completely un-balanced IMO.

[Ryakki]

Weird, you must be kidding. Right now the X-bow, in DoT, is not even half of what the bow is. 4 less credits, less then 50% the damage.

Something despritely needs changed, but the last thing in the world that needs done is to reduce x-bow or atlatl damage.

The only reason I only register this complaint now is that, well, no-one uses x-bow or atlatl, lol. This change will nerf no-one. They're taking weapons too horribly underpowered to use, and nerfing them for being overpowered... I guess I'm just used to the devs' style of "wisdom" when it comes to pk.

[Ibn]

An update: Based on your feedback and our own testing, we decided not to change the shield hollow percentage for Weeping Weapons in June. Weeping Weapons will stay 100% shield hollow.

[IgntionTDC]

XBow and Ataltl damage, doesnt need to get the nuke, bows need the fix, and sword where fun and challenging, although I agree with making the other melees playable.

Mages are fine, don't even tough those.

and yahoo for the 100% shield hollow.

[Ryakki]

I have an idea, how about you change the sheild-hollow without implimenting the other changes? Would sure be alot healthier for balance.

By the way, have any of you on the dev team ever pk'd?


Seriously, you guys just don't seem to get it... at all... even a little bit.

[IgntionTDC]

Heh, I saw that Ibn put it back, it was rather funny.

Well, I hope he does good for the sake of Pk!

[xijin]

i would have to agree,


i would be glad to give the dev team some pointers, i have been an avid player of DT since 99 and all sarcasm aside would be willing to help turbine understand it better

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by Ibn
An update: Based on your feedback and our own testing, we decided not to change the shield hollow percentage for Weeping Weapons in June. Weeping Weapons will stay 100% shield hollow.

I know melees that were looking FORWARD to the 90% shield hollow change. Glad you guys continue to disappoint.

[IgntionTDC]

Archers aren't dissapointed, Melee's just whine because they just cant remove archer from their screen like they used too.

[Rusty]

Weeping staying 100% hollow is just plain stupid !
I knew so many melee's looking forward to that 10%, what is 10% for crying out loud ! you put shields in the game why DON't WE USE THEM !, thats one of the strongest advantages to melee more defense from a shield, sence weeping shields have become usless much like lures, why don't you take lures out of the game while your at it to. Utterly stupid I thought for once turbine was going to do something smart instead of creating more and more powerfull stuff acutally nurf something, guess not, way to go guys, keep the disapointments coming !

[Rusty]

I retract some of my belly aching on my other post, I know its hard to balance everything in a large population game. I also know its impossible to make everyone happy but I think this 100% hollow is a mistake, its still eliminating lures and shield from pk. Pk fighting right now is so boring, imp vuln hack, or vuln shoot no debuffing no luring. Pretty dull.
Plus I know so many melee’s that where tinking shield including my self getting ready for that patch. Also for lower lvl people that was going to be a little bit of damage relief but not anymore. Ah well maybe in July.

[IgntionTDC]

Everyone has to remember that Turbine has to fix all the mistakes made by MS. It's been YEARS since Turbine has owned Asheron's. They need to fix all the mistakes thats about 3 years worth of flaws and little programming errors they need to go through.

People quit AC because they expected for Turbine to kiss there arse and fix the game right away, in reality you can't fix 3 years worth of little code errors and expect it to be all done in one night. It doesn't work like that.

Turbine has alot to make up for that they did not have control over.

Turbine will get this show on the road again, when everything is fixed, AC will rule the MMPORG Shelves again, especially with that new expansion.

[Frank The Knife]

The feedback I see shows you Devs should hold off a month and rethink the weeping changes.


Maybe fix what IS broken like :

Jumpspin
Straif run
Double cast
Hold cast
Animation exploits used to lock up a melee's client.
Magic Defence being overpowered (Melee & Mage)
Double banes being overpowered
Healing skill that fails when you need it the most.
Portal exploits (Sith recall)
Untouchable lvl 200+ PKs (thanks to macro/chains)
Archers that can hit what they shoot

:mad:

[xijin]

Ok ttrying to be constructive here

The weeping bow as it is now doesnt even do enough damage. if you take a loot bow and imbue it with aegis property i promise NO ONE and i mean absolutely NO ONE will use it.

a bow w/o human slaying or aror even CS or CB is absolutely useless in pvp

lets say the weeping does 30 damage a shot this aegis bow will not have human slaying or even AR. it will prolly only do 5-10 damage per hit.

it will be 100% useless. im telling you dont bother because NO ONE will use it.

Make it some kind of imbue to add to a weeping bow or an already imbued AR.

melees can use weeping AND aegis why cant archers???

[IgntionTDC]

they're upping the stats on weeping bow not lowering them.

[Frank The Knife]

They could increase the damage of the bow to 200pts a hit but that still wont solve the problem.

[Paco_Taco_TD]

A lot of the (people) who think mages are overpowered don't know how to dodge a war spell lol

Its real hard, lemme help you

first /unfilter -spellcasting okay?
then try moving when you see Zojak blahblah?
try it, it really works

Archer vs Melee is template dependant (tank archer will beat all melees but non tank archer will get seriously rocked)
Melee vs Mage sword can win, if played by a skilled player, using wards and gsc with decent MD. The other classes, need a bit of a boost
Mage vs Archer - Mage wins hands down because the archer does considerably less damage and can be dodged pretty easily

simple, fix the physics engine so that arrows act like arcs instead of bolts. Would help pvm too.
edit: i like the idea that ya'll had about being able to switch shooting styles, I hope you can implement it

another edit : oh god, xbow is already worthless lol I haven't seen an xbow pk in ages because its soooo slow and you cant hit anyone for more than bow. come on, give them some love.

[Slpoheklmnuov]

They chose the option of increasing bow damage because after years of people telling them to just change arrow pathing they can't do it, and we know they can, because they did it with war.

it's (bad) in pvm too when a monster is using an xbow then casts and my arrow flies off in a stupid direction, or when an arrow or war spells fires backwards because the pathing is retarded.



this isn't even mentioning the fact that the game's hit detection is on par with a bad NES game... I love those streaks that aren't coming at me and have their animation for colliding with me be IN THE AIR SEVERAL FEET AWAY but somehow still hitting me, or those times when I fire a war spell and I see it go past someone but then hit them after it passes


melees will be fine, mages will be fine, archers still get the shaft because

THEY

CAN'T

HIT

ANYTHING

ANYWAY


what does that 50 point more hit of damage do when it hits like 1 in 15 shots?

[IgntionTDC]

Yea unless you're up close no arrow hits, and ranged attack chars shouldn't have to fight 2 feet from opponent.

^ i agree with the two above.

[ODH]

Wow.

First of all, regarding an aegis-like add on for a loot bow?
Loot bows suck for PvM
Ever PKd with a loot bow?
It's an exercise in futility.
If the damage is not on par with a Weeping Bow, it will not be used in PK, period, so its a waste of time.
Why spend valuable development time on something nobody is going to use?

I agree that they are completely missing the issue for missle pk balance. I don't care about the damage I take! We're all used to taking damage from Arcs. As an archer I've been getting tagged by Arcs for years. I have no problem with that. War cost the most to spec and it should hit the hardest.

FIX ARROW TRACKING SO I HAVE A CHANCE TO HIT WHAT IM SHOOTING AT, AT MID AND LONG RANGES!

That way, I've got a shot at using my skill to dodge oncoming wars. If it hits and hits hard, so be it. I'd just like to be able to actually hit back.

Right now pk with bow is just a melee attack with no shield, because you pretty much have to be at close range to have a chance at hitting anyone.

Use the Dev time to fix arrow tracking. Something that tracked like an arc would work just dandy. We've been lied to in the past about how they couldn't fix arrow tracking to make it hit more consistantly. When arcs came out, we saw that this was a load of bull. (They couldn't fix it for archers but they could fix it for mages... Umm.. OK.) The code for it is already in game. Just apply it to arrows. Don't waste dev time on some special dumb bow that nobody will use. Just apply the arc tracking to arrows fired from the weeping bow. Problem solved. Forget about the aegis. We don't need it. We need to be able to hit what we're shooting at.

The aegis for archers seems like a bandaid type fix for a much more serious PK balance issue. Don't waste your dev time with stuff like that. Fix the real problem. If that means scrapping the aegis idea and taking another month or so to fix arrow pathing that's fine. We'll wait. We've been waiting for YEARS for you guys to fix arrow tracking for PK. We can do another couple months standing on our heads. No problem. Just fix the real issues, instead of things that aren't broken.

[Rusty]

I agree that some of the other melee classes like ua, dagger, ect needed a bit of a boost since hitting through really high tinked armor is hard. I also belive that sword needs to be nurfed a tad, getting hit for 70+ on tinked armor is a bit extreme and it makes pking boring. Sword Vs Any other melee is imp, vuln, wack, die. The dmg is two high, your constantly healing. Not to mention if there is more then 1 sword person on you, you drop really fast and for the most part you can't even heal fast enough. I think they need to make shields useful again by not making the weepings hollow by some % because with the weepings dmg being modified it makes it easyer to pk mages which was there purpose but melee fights are now boring, dull, and unfair. Melee fights are now based on weather your sword or not, and your gear. With some kind of a shield the people would have to at least lure it to do more damage. Something has to be done about fighting melee's because currently its pretty boring and unbalanced in my opinion. Hopefully this will be balanced in further patches. I aslo agree with the archer coments in the above posts. I also heard a rumor that dagger might get double / tripple strike with weeping is there any marit to his ??

[Some weird guy]

Weird, you must be kidding. Right now the X-bow, in DoT, is not even half of what the bow is. 4 less credits, less then 50% the damage.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sorry man, but I have to laugh when bow and xbow are compared through DoT charts.

Lets take some real examples...

1.) I am out killed by xbow 50% of the time on boss monsters like Mowen, Gman etc... According to your DoT charts, I should get the kill over 80 - 90% of the time?

2.) There are a lot of monsters that xbow can one hit, that bow can not, what happens to your DoT charts then?

3.) Archer vs Archer in PvP makes no difference at all if you are wielding a bow or an xbow, the only thing that makes *any* difference here is who has the higher missile d...period. If my archer who has no missile, has to fight an xbow with even a slight bit of missile d, that xbow is gonna own me very, very badly.

Even if neither of us had missile d, there is no way bow would out kill xbow in PvP consistently either, as the DoT charts and skill credit (huge) indicates. This is also assuming max coord/skill and weapon damage mods for both combatants. There is also not much skill involved in archer vs archer, compared to mage fighting.

4.) xbow gets a hella better temp, as bow costs 20 credits to use affectively (fletching) and xbow only costs 16, same as sword.

I do think bow and xbow need to be separated a bit, but I don't think xbow should be nerfed to do it :(

[Sito]

A bow user with skill should never lose to a Xbower.

Xbow has a longer load time. All the Bow user has to do is slide and fire and the Xbower would never hit. I have done it every time I have fought an Xbower. The only time Xbow has ever killed my Bow user is when they were 100+ levels above my archer or I was fighting two of them....

Yeah... I have fought 2 xbowers at the same time. :eek:

[ODH]

Xbow is nice for big hits.
The DoT is not as important when you are 1, 2, or 3 shotting mobs.

This doesn't translate well into PvP though were it takes many more hits to kill your opponent.

Xbow is difficult to work with in PvP because of the long loading animation and the healing to combat animation. Bow is just much faster in those departments. This is by design though. Bow costs more than Xbow, so it follows that it should have higher DoT.

That's all kind of off topic though. It has nothing to do with the weapon changes. Like I said earlier to keep this on track, the problem with missle weapons in PvP is the tracking.

Fix the issue with arc-like tracking for missile weapons and you've taken a giant step in the direction of PvP balance. As I said before, I don't expect to hit as hard as a mage, nor do I want some aegis-like bonus to nerf their war spells. I'd just like to be able to have a chance at hitting a target at medium and long ranges.

If you add an aegis-like object for archers and THEN fix tracking, Id go so far as to say you may end up overpowering us archers, because we'd end up being able to sit back and hit from further distances and take much less damage from the spells we don't dodge.

I understand why this is needed for melee, because they need to get right on top of a target to hit it. You're at a disadvantage for dodging anything at that range.

If you just fixed arrow tracking, archers wouldn't have to fight at melee ranges and the need for an aegis would be eliminated.

[AG of WE]

I just got done reading the future of PvP thread that was a link stating "comment on this article" only to find out it was a closed thread months ago. Kinda disappointing. I lost out on my chance to reply to that which I had alot of input to give. I didnt even read anyone elses comments on this because Im still a little miffed about the other thread, so pardon me if I sound redundant.

*guess I'll take my cookie now*

As for the changes to the weapons...I say good job. It's at least a step in the right direction for a fubared PK environment.

I'm an archer, one of the last I might add on a "carebear" server (I also play DT alot, just not recently so I dont wanna hear flames hehe). Im takin this from an archer's standpoint cause thats what I mainly PvP with regardles of which server Im on even though Im a skilled meleer also.

Its kinda refreshing to finally see the "you get what you pay for" statement to be true (skill cred-wise). If everything was same across the board like someone had mentioned in a previous thread, we'd all be UA/mages and have no diversity.

Personally, I only use weeping bow because of it being unenchantable. I prefer using my AR but Turbine has made it too easy to debuff. I'd like to see the "self/other" targeting removed. It makes it too easy to debuff a weapon and has taken any form of skill away from this aspect of PvPing. I dont mind having my AR debuffed as long as I know it was done out of targeting skill and NOT because a mage already has me as a target and is nothing but a few points of mana cost. This form of targeting just nerfed fighting in a BAD way just to save lazy people .2 secs of clickin on thier weapon/shiled for buffing purposes. But since Turbine has takin the fun out of being skilled in multiple facets, and I have to use a weeping bow...the actual weeping changes are in the positive direction.

It's also nice to see improvments to the "other" PvP weapons and you dont have to be lvl 60+ for your lowbie (wont say noob cause its probably a re-roll) to have something and have a better chance since we all cant have those uber vulning skills fresh out of creation.

As for "aegis" type imbues for missile loot weapons, all I have to say is...ROTFLMFAO!!!

No, I dont think so. You take less damage from a mage. Great! But now my 40-70 non-crit hits turn to 10-15 hits on a mage with 300-400+ health. Granted, you may get lucky and the mage might not get a chance to heal while he's fell of his chair laughin his *** off at you.

Archers already went from the PK of choice 4+ years to the comedy central of PKing because they can be right in your face and very little toggling will send the arrow flying to the environment. Dont get me wrong, I've killed more mages then your algorithms (sp) shouldve let me but...

Let the "Aegis" for missile peeps be a "archer/xbower/tw req only" quest item. It should also be as easy to get as the Aegis Shield.

Keep up the good work on trying to fix fubaring PvP and maybe I, along with alot of others Im sure, will be proud to log onto DT again knowing its skill and survival tactics that keeps me alive.

Also, on a side note that I feel is VERY important. The "GODMODING" potion and such... This should not be a topic you should be even remotely looking at "fixing". I have to use elixirs because Im not even trained in healing. This, however, has never been an issue against a good PvPer. I get killed even easier then when I had healing. I dont have healing because I want to be trained in missileD instead. My bow and meleeD is specialized because its a must. Missile because I'm still hopeful that one day you will coorect your nerfings and make it the usefull skill it should be. My toon will never be good against resisting mages but I can at least try to make him the best I can be vs a non-mage. *this is where I'm backing Turbine up on "diversity" when it comes to groups and such...you know, for that "fun" experience*

My char is a 3-school tank archer. On top of fletching being a MUST, I kinda need the arcane so I can use items so its a little more important to have arcane and potions then it is to have healing.

I'm looking forward to the day all classes are on a well-balanced slaying field. Sorry this is so long but I hope you take the time to read ALL of it and really take some of this to heart.

Im a Consultant by trade but since I love AC and have been playing it for over 4 years, I'll give you this advice for free. :D

Thanks for your time!

[Rusty]

In regards to AG of WE post ^

Personally, I only use weeping bow because of it being unenchantable. I prefer using my AR but Turbine has made it too easy to debuff. I'd like to see the "self/other" targeting removed. It makes it too easy to debuff a weapon and has taken any form of skill away from this aspect of PvPing. I dont mind having my AR debuffed as long as I know it was done out of targeting skill and NOT because a mage already has me as a target and is nothing but a few points of mana cost. This form of targeting just nerfed fighting in a BAD way just to save lazy people .2 secs of clickin on thier weapon/shiled for buffing purposes. But since Turbine has takin the fun out of being skilled in multiple facets, and I have to use a weeping bow...the actual weeping changes are in the positive direction.

Your talking about your skill and how easy it is to debuff a weapon, there is spell words, pull your weapon!, they can't debuff it if its in your pack. I do agree however on the easy targeting that did limit a bit of skill/ ways to protect your self like using a really small shield for it to be hard to lure becuase you have a hard time click on it. I also miss shields in general sence no one uses them sence weeping. Same goes for lures. I also agree with your post on the missle reduction with ageis, I think that is a bad idea. When archers do hit, they hit for okay damage, but they are dodgable so untill it gets to the point when its really hard to dodge arrows, then they may look into this but for now bad idea.

I also look forward to a more skill based / diversity pk server because right now its a mess.

[Frank The Knife]

Your talking about your skill and how easy it is to debuff a weapon, there is spell words, pull your weapon!, they can't debuff it if its in your pack.

Yeah that worked for mages real well when melees were able to debuff breastplates.

As I remember mages were quiting the game over it.

Pulling a weapon/armor in the heat of a big fight isnt as easy as anyone thinks it is.

[Sabu]

Its tough to pull your weapon.

Next topic...

Any chance to make a hard cap on how much an aegis will stop? With some of these 150+ swords ; Their magic d + any wards can make me hit them for 100-115 a hit. And they just sit and tank and can chug an elix and charge in before i can heal ( or revit. if i stam to healthed)

[Darktider]

I've been a melee on DT since day one...I'm now a lvl 174 extreme sword here's some stuff...

1. I get killed by 2 wars no prob...all the time.

2. I crit people in good armor for 100.

3. Please give us hollows that work well. I know no one forced me to be an extreme melee, but I have to be able to land 2 spells on people with max magic d to do any damage (and I can land unless the inept me.) I wish I didn't have to rely on life magic even more than a mage to do any damage...I'm a swordfighter!

Thanks!

[Last Man]

1. I get killed by 2 wars no prob...all the time.

At level 174 that's laughable. Invest in some health. You aren't properly equipped or made if you are getting 2 shot all the time at level 174.

[Ryakki]

Actually, thinking some about it, I think the Aegis property on loot bows might help quite a bit. The devs have stated that it wouldn't be an imbue in and of itself, which means you could have it on an AR bow. Bows go up to what now, 186% when full tinked? If the Aegis property also made the bow un-debuffable, you'd have-


186% AR
25% magic damage reduction
non-debuffable


That's not bad. It'd hit at least as hard as a Weeping Bow, and the 25% magic reduction would allow you to get close and stay close to a mage, sort of jury-rigging arrow pathing... arrows are easy to dodge but not if the archer is sitting on your head :P





As for dodging magic on a melee, ever heard of delay casting, double casting, sliding to make the melee unable to break sticky, any of those? Just because you're a joke of a player who's never learned to use these tactics because your class wins for you, doesn't mean that no-one else does. The second a mage uses any of those tactics it's all over but the crying... not that the melee should have had any shadow of a chance with you just standing there either.

[Last Man]

xbow is 191, bow is 166.

[IgntionTDC]

Just got ig from pkin on a mage, I'm decent defiantly not the best, however I do see mages are over powered. I was on a mage with 320 health and with a crit I've died about 5 times today with one shot. Others deaths where my own fault.

Once the melee's are rebalanced that will be fine.

Archers def need some arrow pathing and speed love, and the aegis property is great, implement it - I personally Don't like being crit for 320+ health plus. (I can say I'm a way better archer then I am a mage) as for Melee well I can do it, just not great.

Also Missile needs to be just a little less effective, because when archers do get the fix everyone will take missile again.

Overall PvP is pretty good, feels great to be dying and winning at Ayan.

[Frank The Knife]

I personally Don't like being crit for 320+ health plus.

Could you explain what hit you for a crit of 320+ ?

As a sword I need to un-nerf myself in a few days and need to know so I can sell back my skills immediately!

[IgntionTDC]

Grief War Mage hit me for 320+ crits, it was amazing I sat their stupified. Then another mage reported he landed a crit for 386. And I saw the battle so I know it's true.

Mages need to get a persistant range in which they hit.. not crits that 1 shot ko everyone.

[Paco_Taco_TD]

maybe you should use higher level prots than 4s if you're getting hit for 320.

[IgntionTDC]

Maybe it was lvl VII prots? It was called a crit. thanks.

[TSK-AoW]

Ibn, if you get a chance, Id still appreciate a response to my initial post on this thread, Thanks.

[Final Destiny]

i got a bower and a mage.. My mage can constantly hit for 30 - 75 with streaks and 200s with arcs, my bower hit for 25 - 40 and the arrows can easily get deflected!!, the arrows damage should ne atleast more than the streaks damage, and they should path like arc spells so they get harder to be dodged then missile def will be a usefull skill in PKing.. not like am wasting 12 cridits to spec resist on my bower for nothin.

no more comments

[Ryakki]

I think archer damage is more then enough, that's not the problem at all.

Wearing double-baned GSC w/peirce-ward(major) an archer with DAP was critting me for 112 just the other day... and I'll tell you what... ow ow ow ow ow. He actually killed me once solo, hehe. Of course the fact that my war-spells were averaging ~200 and *very* hard to dodge due to my delay-casting of arcs let me still win the majority of bouts, as a level 115 mage w/o missle, which is sad.

I personally think aegis is the right way to go, *if* implimented correctly. That means non-debuffable weapons with AR in addition to aegis, and hopefully non-drop.

[Final Destiny]

Reducing the slayer on the weeping bow, increasing the bow damage mod, will the damage increase?... we'll have to check, the problem is that bows r very weak in PK since they got no aegis effect, they hit for very low damage, their missiles can be easily deflected by just shaking.

Why the slayer is not reduced on wands?.. Mages r most powerfull toons in PK.. and ur nerfing the melees!!!!!!!!, well.. i think that the mages streaks will do way higher damage than bow arrows since the slayer on the bow has been reduced and the mod increased.. so its still blanced to do the same damage as before.

Slayer should still the same, Melee and missile weapons should be boosted so their damage can be higher than the mages streaks atleast.

After this patch i don't think that melees or missile toons will be anygood in PKing.. just for ganking.. like 10000000 melee and bow to kill 1 mage. now mages will hit for 200s and melees for 30s where is the comparison?

If war cost 16 and does 200s bow cost half and should do half the damage its not even doing 1/4, same for sword.

when u said that bow = sword its cause u gimped sword.. not boosted bows.

Well I talk alot i guess... But AC1 is only for mages i guess.. they got all the goos stuff.. and they whine cause sword can do 50 with full bar, their streaks can hit for 30 - 75 constantly.. this need some balancing.

Or keep the current changes and bring back the armor debuff changes <that patch was the only balanced patch>.

[DwynnsPlace]

Well I must say!

This is a load of smelly stuff for sure! All the hard work and expence that I, as a player, went through to get a hollow, deadly and Weeping weapons and you want to take away from my swords capabilities? Of course the weeping sword is nasty! As it should be!

All those that complain that a weeping sword is awesome should well respect it! And now the degredation of that swords capability is a slap in the face of all those sword bearers.

Now you want to increase the functionality of the bow and make it more deadly? What balance is that in weeping weapons? Who wants all the standerd weapons to be on par with the "SPECIAL WEAPONS"?

Else why even have these exotic weapons in the first place?

I am sdorry but this is a mistake.

I agree with the increase in the effectiveness of the hollow and deadly weapons as they were nothing of great effect, at least I saw no special effect, possibly due to the low amount of damage they did.

I disagree with reducing the effectiveness of any "SPECIAL WEAPON".

Just my thoughts!

Jessibellyshaker.

[Ryakki]

It was funny, was pking the other day and some newb... level 70-some, new to pk (was on my white world not DT, he had just gone pink for the first time it looked like to me)... got mad that I had killed his friend (his friend was a higher level sword toon that commited pretty efficient suicide by attacking me). The 70-some newb started whacking me with his hollow. He was critting me for like 5 damage (had 380 base legs and 400 base solls on), lol, I made snow angels instead of killing him. He was even using a deadly hollow katar and it was like being bit by a fly, he was just bearly overcoming my regen.

The *only* time I've gotten any use from my hollow in the last year is when some yahoo jumped me while I was dueling, then was stupid enough to engage in a naked mage duel about 15 minutes later... I must admit, hollow weapons on naked people are still pretty darn efficient :P




Anyway, yeah, the hollow/phantom love is a long time coming... will it be worthwhile to use a hollow/phantom in any normal situation? Doubt it, but at least they're being improved, even if it is some pointless little improvement that doesn't make them functional weapons.

[Goldmember]

Originally posted by Final Destiny
Reducing the slayer on the weeping bow, increasing the bow damage mod, will the damage increase?... we'll have to check, the problem is that bows r very weak in PK since they got no aegis effect, they hit for very low damage, their missiles can be easily deflected by just shaking.

Why the slayer is not reduced on wands?.. Mages r most powerfull toons in PK.. and ur nerfing the melees!!!!!!!!, well.. i think that the mages streaks will do way higher damage than bow arrows since the slayer on the bow has been reduced and the mod increased.. so its still blanced to do the same damage as before.

Slayer should still the same, Melee and missile weapons should be boosted so their damage can be higher than the mages streaks atleast.

After this patch i don't think that melees or missile toons will be anygood in PKing.. just for ganking.. like 10000000 melee and bow to kill 1 mage. now mages will hit for 200s and melees for 30s where is the comparison?

If war cost 16 and does 200s bow cost half and should do half the damage its not even doing 1/4, same for sword.

when u said that bow = sword its cause u gimped sword.. not boosted bows.

Well I talk alot i guess... But AC1 is only for mages i guess.. they got all the goos stuff.. and they whine cause sword can do 50 with full bar, their streaks can hit for 30 - 75 constantly.. this need some balancing.

Or keep the current changes and bring back the armor debuff changes <that patch was the only balanced patch>.

As a fellow swords player, I couldn't have said it better. You've said just about what I wanted to say.

Turbine, what are you thinking when you are making these changes for "balanced PVP"? Look what you've done to the hollows. Now mages are not only overpowered once again but can now pull out a UA hollow deal you a quick death.

Why do the mages get all the love and what have you got against the melees???

[Mickeross2000]

Yeah, I wanna know why the phantom weapons do way way less damage out of all other hollow weapons but yet u have to go to the harder level quary to get the ore. The quest is quiet simple to do but it seems to not make any since to go out of ur way for a lesser weapon when you can just go for a walk in the park to get the lowgrade ore.
and on another note I just got one of the new panaq bows from the Palenqual's Living Weapons quest. I was useing a perfect isparian bow on a high lvl mage 2x my own level of 50 he creamed me 2 times then I used the panaq. He kept telling me "what is that bow, it hurts like an S.O.B", it only had lvl 6 item buffs on it and I ended up killing him in like 4 hits and I wasn't even buffed up too. It seems to me that bow is the best quest bow ever made. Besides a fully tinkered bow the panaq is the best non-PvP bow to use in PvP combat.
off topic
but how come when the servers are off line the game world population never gos down to zero. Even on patch day it seems like the population never drops to none.

[Frank The Knife]

Testing I did before and after the nerf.


Before the nerf I hit......

AL 417 leggs Impen/Bane 103 crit Cold weeping Sword

After the nerf I hit........

AL 417 leggs Impen/Bane 88 crit Cold Weeping Sword

Phantom I crit for (full power) 103 no slash ward, 87 with slash ward

Hollow I didnt even bother to test before the patch. Now I crit the AL 417 for 67 with the hollow full power. If they pull a shield its pointless to use a hollow.

Here is the breakdown as it is now against AL 417.

Weeping - 88
Hollow - 67
Phantom -103/87

Very Disapointed in this nerf patch. I guess unless your lvl 200+ you need a gank squad.

Great job screwing up balance yet again.

[Lancelot_Hood]

Now that the weeping bow melee bonus has been reduce, is even worst, becuse sword can hit you almost everytime now. Dont think is fair to bower 's. Try been an archer in Darktide with the weeping bow now, swords will eat you. It was more or less ok against swords before(evading), now I have to worry about mages and swordsman. Please set the melee the way it was before, since monsters can hit you more often with that melee bonus, have you try a pk figth with a few mutilators around using the weeping? Do you think is fair?
thanks

[Justice Kaena]

I currently play a sword guy approaching level 90...I've also played every combat type AC has to offer and I must say, I've been experiencing difficulties with sword for some time now...I'm extremely displeased with this nerf...Until recently I never played anything but a mage, ever! Now, after going through the list of Melee types, and comparing them, I'm disgusted that you could nerf sword. I feel like all the work i've put into it has now gone to waste and i need to start working on moving my chars over to mages to get any excitment out of the game...how sad....im really losing interest in this game lately, and ive spent more hours (and years) playing this game then just about anything else i do. oh well...

[edit]
this is also my first time ever posting and i registered just now. i want to make sure your aware of how displeased i am and that ive never had a big problem with anything you've done since this game release, it does still make lots of money obviously... I also feel that many decision you guys (turbine) makes, its too much based on judging math equations rather then real scenario testing....If you guys only went out there and gave true PKing a try, you might be quite surprised at your results.

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by Justice Kaena
I currently play a sword guy approaching level 90...I've also played every combat type AC has to offer and I must say, I've been experiencing difficulties with sword for some time now...I'm extremely displeased with this nerf...Until recently I never played anything but a mage, ever! Now, after going through the list of Melee types, and comparing them, I'm disgusted that you could nerf sword. I feel like all the work i've put into it has now gone to waste and i need to start working on moving my chars over to mages to get any excitment out of the game...how sad....im really losing interest in this game lately, and ive spent more hours (and years) playing this game then just about anything else i do. oh well...

[edit]
this is also my first time ever posting and i registered just now. i want to make sure your aware of how displeased i am and that ive never had a big problem with anything you've done since this game release, it does still make lots of money obviously... I also feel that many decision you guys (turbine) makes, its too much based on judging math equations rather then real scenario testing....If you guys only went out there and gave true PKing a try, you might be quite surprised at your results.

Umm you're on MT, what do you know about PKing?

[Frank The Knife]

He knows that a sword melee in PK or PKpink is now hopeless and thats a good start.

Edit- Unless he has a good gank squad to back him up.

[Justice Kaena]

I may play on MT, but i've played other servers, including DT...PKing is something I do on occasion now, not something I use to occupy my playing time...However, It looks like i wont b PKing much at all now....

[Virindi Clown]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned, but I think the balance between different weapons was big time overdone.

As I have said, I am not an advocate of making something do like double damage because it costs twice as many skill credits as something else, but this is kind of nuts.

A weeping dagger has 28-56 damage, and correct me if I am wrong, but, a weeping sword has 32-64 damage.

You get an 8 damage difference for 12 credits, wasting a racial skill, and spending more attribute points for your attack/melee defense?

So you end up with a 0.75 damage point increase per skill credit in just the damage equation, which doesn't mean a whole lot after the armor and everything...OK...

I don't know how the other weapons are (other weepings, hollows, phantoms), but come on, the dagger is supposed to be the WEAKEST and the sword is supposed to be the STRONGEST between SEVEN weapon skills!!!

That just tells everyone to drop sword and save themselves the credits for dagger, which gives the advantage of not requiring strength, so that you can make an insane high magic defense AND melee defense character.

Or you can go unarmed, which gives the advantage of hitting faster (for whatever stupid reason) than any other weapon in the game, probably giving it a higher damage rate than sword.

Uh, wtf?!? :confused:

[Ryakki]

I pk on both DT and a white world and I'll tell you what, DT sure doesn't have anything on PKL, heh.

Sure on DT you're in danger all the time, no safe zones, life is harder... but when you just look at the fighting, people on white worlds tend to be much more skilled and for the most part higher level (I mean look at how easy leveling is there, and the constant dueling to build skill).



Anyway, I can't say much on the changes yet... I have very little time to play and havn't been on since the patch. But I will say that UA is probably the best choice for a melee now, looking solely at the numbers. I'd like to hear from one of them on how hard they hit. Sword is old hat now.


As for archers getting wasted by melees... shut up, lol. Melees lost just as much att. bonus as archers lost def. bonus and in addition lost mucho damage. Melees are the only ones who have any right whatsoever to cry over the patch. Well, them and anyone wearing shadow armor, hollows must really tear 260 al apart! Hey wait... I wear shadow armor... wtf :(***

[Lancelot_Hood]

Weeping dagger actually hits from 8 to 20 or 22 tops

[DracheDesAngst]

Mages are still weak in comparison to melees, might as well paint us with honey and lets us roll around an ant hill. We can't escape melees, we can't hit them thanks to the poorest targetting system of all computer games and lack of imaginative spells.

The only melees that die are those too ignorant to catch on to the fact mages can' t hit a moving target. We just everso slowly shoot one useless boring spell after another and do no more than 120 points of damage versus an aegis. Frankly, my lvl 170 mage is just a support character by my take of the game. I normally see the so-called best mage players kissing the lifestone when up against a melee sword or archer.

I really don't think you guys at Turbine have tested this game with experienced players or have the slightest concept of how we play. Remember the changes you made on the weeping weapons in the face of everyone screaming for you to stop.

Does crow taste good?

Get online and try playing a mage and you'll really learn the meaning of frustration.

1. Oh boy.. my spell is going 90 degrees to where my PVP target is at the moment. Looks like Mister McGoo did the targetting here.

2. My 10x tinked armor with buffed AL of 663 is like tissue paper. It's nice to know I wasted alot of time getting this.. just like my GSC.

3. Hey, these Life spell look great! Aww.. Some mental midget made them useless for PVP, maybe we should just walk away from the computer when we're attacked, it won't be so frustrating.

4. Do you know how much lag effects a mage over a melee? Didn't think you did..

5. Does anyone have the slightest bit of imagination for new spells over there?

A Frustrated mage,

D.

[Sito]

DracheDesAngst PISH!


I hate to post it but.... STFU.

Mages have NOTHING to whine about compaired to archers. Every complaint you made is a problem that is worse for archers then for mages. Geeze....

[DracheDesAngst]

Ah.. another melee making an intelligent argument I see. Let's see your argument has what basis? All I hear fall from your yelping lips is STFU. You know you'll have to learn to make a more weighty argument to sway people to your convictions.

Do you offer any facts? No..

Do you offer any proof of your statements. No..

So, why should I waste my time on a collection of insults and a statement that has not a shred of evidence or information other than the outburst of a childish mind?

I have previously posted statistics of actual combat versus various forms of armor and the acrued amount of damage. At the upper levels of the game melee types out damage any mage and that is a fact.

The poor game dynamics are obvious even to the most dim as yourself. Do you see the point that mages must fire off hundreds of war spells in order to achieve a single hit or are you're to thickwitted to admit you are wrong.

This whole design is boring to mages, all we do is move slowly in place and shoot at where you've been, not where you are going to be. Do we have any slider to change the speed or power of the attack like an archer?

The basic design is lacking and everyone know this to be the case. Perhaps if you were go to a remedial class for special people you'd realize not to just stand there and attack or run in straight lines. I hope this wasn't to hard to comprehend?

You're wrong bud.. and the facts bear me out.

Drache

[Frank The Knife]

Drache

It really sounds like you never played a melee pk. If your just standing there mashing the End key shooting wars any melee will crush you.

Ever hear of circle cast, hold cast, delay cast, double cast?

There is a huge difference in fights solo and gank when we roll mages who know how to fight melees and those that dont.

If your standing there in sunstone gaunts and knorr helm you might as well be wearing a robe. Its like me complaining if I go pk with lvl V protects and complain lvl VII wars do too much damage.

Here is the break down of melee damage I did prior to the nerf.

Before the nerf I hit......

AL 417 leggs Impen/Bane 103 crit Cold weeping

After the nerf I hit........

AL 417 leggs Impen/Bane 88 crit Cold Weeping

Phantom I crit for (full power) 103 no slash ward, 87 with slash ward

Hollow I didnt even bother to test before the patch. Now I crit the AL 417 for 67 with the hollow full power.

Weeping - 88
Hollow - 67
Phantom -103/87

Hardly overpowering to a mage prepared to fight. Especially with crits only happening 10% of the time and less than that if your hopeing for a helm/hands/foot shot.

I took the hint and quit melee pk altogether I will be playing a MAGE on VT. Melee pk just plain sucks.

[Ryakki]

Drache I have to go with STFU as well.

A mage complaining about melees is just rediculous.

Learn to pk even a little bit and you will never, ever, no matter how lucky a melee gets, die to one at level 170.


And I have to laugh especially hard about lag being worse on mages. Give me a break man. If a mage lags, then what? His spell goes off a second or two late at worst. If a melee lags, he gets slammed for, depending on level and luck, anywhere from 99-200 points of damage. Yeah, poor mage with his lag disadvantage.

[Zeds]

I am of the firm belief that if you make changes to weapons for the purpose of PvP "balance" or whining or whatever those changes should only be in effect for people who are in PvP mode.

I get very sick of having the entire game screwd just to appease the minority ( a very small minority) of the playerbase

[Little Tuffy]

it's great finally having a use for my deadly hollow katar, considering the stats weren't that good before. As for phantom, I'm still waiting to upgrade my ravenous, and I'm 20 levels short of being able to get a weeping weapon (dungeon IS 60+ right?)

[Scout X]

I must have missed this, but i keep hearing here and there that turbine said they can't add arc abilities to arrows? Anyone know where they said this, and if it's true, would they like to explain why - when they were able to do it for mages?

[Ashikaga]

Boosting hollows and phantoms is long overdue. Thanks for that.

Evening up the melee/missile weapons is a good idea too. Many people get too carried away over skill costs. In PvP if a weapon can't kill anyone then it's worthless - regardless of how cheap the skill is.

I have some doubts about nerfing the weaping sword. On the face of it, it doesn't seem to make much sense to nerf the second best PvP skill to improve balance (i.e you nerf the best one usually).

However, I can see that the proposed Aegis for missile weapons does acknowledge that war magic is over powered in PvP.

The idea of an Aegis imbue/tinker to loot bows does seem to have a few problems though...

-- I don't think an AR bow does enough damage against a mage in highly tinked armor anyway.

-- Why remove all melee def mods? Presumably the weapon won't be shield hollow anyway. So its weakness is that its useless against melees.

-- If the bow can be debuffed (Pacification) then its useless for PK.

-- It seems unfair that archer's aegis must be a good loot bow and tinker it to the max with mahogany while melees can do a simple low level quest to get theirs.

Please consider making the Aegis bow some sort of quest modification of the weeping bow in the same way elemental weepings modify melees. I have no problem if you remove shield hollow from its abilities.

[Reko]

why would you do this. Now it is almost a must that everyone has tinked armor because if not you OWNED by the deadly hollow. Even if your a level 126+ and your wearing GSA, a lvl 40 can kill you with a deadly hollow. Bad change guys.

[Yan_HG]

I was one of the many people who requested upgrades to hollows and phantoms- but this is nowhere near what I had in mind.

I was thinking more along the lines of higher wield req hollows and phantoms- maybe even new lugian chorzite mines in the dires- maybe a new hollow dynamic like magic rending (ignores a portion of all protection/vulnerability/bane/lure spells based on the wielder's weapon skill) or spectral (ignores all armor and magic).

I think hollows are too much power too early in a melee's PvP life now.

[Demonic_Melee]

alright first of all ua deals more damage than sword...... thats wrong.......
i like that wands stayed the same thou b/c i get hit for 170 tops on my melee..... with an aegis out with much room to pump my magic d and i find many hits in low low 100's
i
find it impossible to kill a level 60 on my 114 melee if he just sits there and heals now.... something isnt right there

also i find it almost impossible to come close to killing a mage 20 levels less than me in a 1v1 period..... even if he never casted a war but just sat there doing nothing for the time the war would cast.

playing both a mage and a melee it seems that melees need that sword crit back especially since ua crits for like 10 damage less than sword on full

also archers can dodge wars so easily its sick... easier than mages dodge arrows which is pretty easy heh...... archers dont really need the aegis providing that they should never get hit with a war

[Caffeine]

I think Turbine should just make us all invincible. That way we can just run around and never have to worry about being killed or challenged again. Seriously! You all want everything! Guess what..your not gonna get it. We cant have everything, you people realize this right? If you all want to play a crappy *** PvP game based on templates and items then I know of the perfect game for you. Its called AC2. Go sign up now and you all can be the same exact level, fighting with the same exact **** armor and weapons, all doing the same exact damage to eachother, and with very little challenge or excitement.

Turbine do us all a favor and disregard 90% of the tears shed here on these boards. It all boils down to everyone wanting everything and their character being the best at PvP because they suck so bad at skill that they need to rely on a template, items and or cheats to win.

Any rational human being is going to realize that we cant always have what we want and part of the fun of life and these games is the challenge.

[Last Man]

Good post caffeine, sort of.

If melees had shut up and took your advice for the last 4+ years, mages would still COMPLETELY OWN. Now there is alot more parity. Once they fix missiles up (not sure how but when they achieve what they need to) we are gonna have a pretty damn good PvP game here.

I will feel like I can do well on any of the 3 main classes if properly equipped and with some skill.

[Ryakki]

FYI, after getting in game and testing in my GSC: Yes, melee hollows are easily survivable.

Bow hollow? Hot without missle D, but I suppose that's only fair, we mages have cheap templates anyway.

[Last Man]

Yeah the only real complaint I have is the amount of damage they can dish before you can react at all. With weeping at least they had to land some spells, phantom one spell, so you could get a vuln off maybe. Now if you portal in somewhere and they time it right you are down 130-150 in GSC and they are winding up a second swing before you've even reached for the vuln key. I guess the counter is to immediately cast the stam to health 4-6 so that it fixes the next hit as well. But then you are starting down at 60% of your stam or so and trying to throw the vuln while he's wacking away. Alternatively you could fc a couple quick rends in an effort to back him off, but my suspicion is that you would be dangerously close to dead at that point to a high level melee. The time to land a vuln is worth quite a bit of advantage that now goes to the hollow.

[Sabu]

Originally posted by Ryakki
FYI, after getting in game and testing in my GSC: Yes, melee hollows are easily survivable.

Bow hollow? Hot without missle D, but I suppose that's only fair, we mages have cheap templates anyway.

I was gettin hit for 114 crits and an average of 25-40 damage a hit wearing al 380 top and 370 bottom. If I was wearing gsc I would be screwed.

[KF_AC]

Question for Ibn:

Are you going to leave the current PvP balance as is, or do you plan on altering it according to "player feedback"?

I could transform my archer to Unarmed, which will take about 6 months. And I don't mind it, I have other toons to play.
However, if you alter Unarmed in 6 months then collecting all those gems would have been for nothing.

Basically what I am asking is: could you stick to a course and let the players adapt to it?

In case you are not sure, how about allowing us to obtain 6 months worth of sellback gems all at once, with timers of course

TY for your time.

[Ibn]

We don't have any immediate plans to make additional PvP changes but we are still working on some issues such as jumpspin and improving archery's effectiveness.

[Ryakki]

Now, remember that archers arn't exactly helpless 1v1, and rock pretty well in group play... it's not like they're totally gimped.

Try not to do anything too drastic.


If anything, do the 90% sheild-hollow thing for melees then leave things alone.

[Last Man]

IBN,

A posters idea on the spec/unspec and attribute gems timers being lowered is not a bad idea with regards to ongoing balancing issues. Perhaps consider lowering it to a week.

[Rallin]

Was healing nerfed for PvP? I've noticed that I've been failing to heal with my 400+ skill a lot with near or full stamnia. I keep failing to heal myself when I have 2/3 of my hp left, and if I'm lucky to land the heal, about 43 points of my hp is healed. Before I could heal about 210+ hp points no problem and continue PKing. But now, I have to think if I RISK using healing kits over potions.

[ArtilexOfDarkti]

If they improve melee weapons... they just make ganks more retarded... so they have to becareful in what they do. Having 2 melees switch targets to you for 4 seconds to kill you would be a little lame, melees can compete, it just takes timing, coordination, a good magic d, and the aegis... depending on your class and specced skill others may be more meant to destroy mages... you can make a mage destroying melee... spec magic d, 100 endurance... mages hit you for 140's tops when it takes 3 wars to kill you.. certain templates dominate different classes... just depends on what you chose to go with and how good you are at evading.

[Rallin]

Can we have locked duels? Like have somesome target someone and type /challenge, then that person hits "yes" to accept challenge. Then NO ONE can interfere with that duel causing less people to whine about ganks. Good idea or not?

[Rallin]

ok I'd like a reply plz, I just failed three times to heal myself in a duel and healed for 42 points of HP with a plentiful. Can someone please explain? I swear I will scream if you ask if I'm off combat mode or have more than half my HP and stamina when I try.

[ChildoftheKoRn]

Myself i love the new weapon changes, was well needed and they did a good job on upgrading them, ganking has also been a problem and been complained about but there is nothing that turbine should do about for its player induced, even if it is a problem. All you can do is yell at the gankers and challenge them to a 1v1

[-Kaxak-]

I love the new Hollow weapons , only thing wrong is the bow , we have Deadly Hollow (weapon type) , but for the bow it just says Hollow Bow , Doh , wish it said Deadly Hollow bow :) , but it doesn't :(




one more thing in PvP (jump spin) if melees can break off an attack at will , then the rest of us should be able to as well !



Make God mode for all PvP types , mages and melees can attack while moving , but bows have to stop to shoot , wtf is that ??? btw I play a mage 99% of the time , the 1% bow is because you have to stop to fire your weapon !!! lame very very very lame !!!

[Final Destiny]

Originally posted by Signalerror
Ok lets see... for a mage to have even a near chance to evade a sword you would need high starter coord and quickness and then melee def speced.

What do you need to evade a war arc? Like 250 buffed run, and then hold W while tapping Z and C. (go at a slight angle for more affect)

mages have no hope in heck to evade a dedicated, or even a hybrid warrior!


As for the hit over 100 crud you are spewing let me put a cork in it for you. When a melee gets war'ed for lets say... 200. He runs drinks 2 elixer then 1 heal and your fine. Also note the mages DOT. if you were to stand perfectly still and just drink potions I bet you could stay even with a streak chaining mage.

Right now, the only way a mage can even have a chance to get away from a melee is to jump-spin and then slide jump over some un-even terrain to get the melee's tracking so messed up that you can get away.

Melee can just run at a angle and then gain distance anytime a mage has to cast a spell... simple enough.


So stop whining about "mage love". Melee's got all the love they ever would need when they got their aegis and weepings.

After the nerf swords hit for 30 - 80 and streeaks hit for 40 - 90.. ahy the complain?... what do u want more? I play a mage i keep on combination of streaking and bolting.. even maxed melees won't kill me.. cause they just suck in damage they can't over power my heals.. i can even do stamina to mana then heal then war.. WHAT DO YOU WANT MORE?????.. I GOT BORED PLAYING MAGES..........

Infact I thought about quiting when they removed the lure patch.... and allready quit after this patch.... lol..

have fun critting for 320s, and complaining about 100s crits

[Final Destiny]

Originally posted by Ifuritah
No, "I'M" not a mage. I PLAY a mage template, along with my SWORD template.
Even if a mage had melee D they won't be able to get it high enough to make a difference to a melee of the same skills assuming they start out in a standard mage Temp (430+ weapon skill vs 300ish meleed).

You obviously have a major bias against mages. The only ones I feel sorry for are the archers, who hopefully should be able to 1v1 as well as a melee/mage can here shortly.

Sure mages hit hard but at moderate speed, melees hit moderatly hard but fairly fast. I don't believe Mages are as mobile as a melee either when fighting (they can break off and return quickly). Mages can fast cast, but a melee can run circles around em till they go into regen mode. I think playing a melee takes more skill when facing a mage, obviously, but I don't think they are under powered. It just the way the attacks are setup.

I am all for the new changes to take effect. We need to get over this idea that the weeping weapons are THE ONLY weapon to fight with. They are at the moment yes, but down the road, tinkered is where its at, and I welcome it!

After gimping weeping swords.. now its almost impossiblt to any sword to kill my mage hos wearing a 650 - 670 Al armors in 1v1.. the only way is ganking... therefore i tried to go on with my bow after i found that mages r not fun anymore.. u just have fun when mage vs mage.. its a joke vs melees... but what i found that bows really suck in PK... in both.. damage and accuracy...

After this patch.. the only way to kill a mage is ganking.. and its a fact.. I almost never seen a fairly good mage get killed in 1v1 against a melee or a bow..

[Ibn]

Originally posted by Rallin
ok I'd like a reply plz, I just failed three times to heal myself in a duel and healed for 42 points of HP with a plentiful. Can someone please explain? I swear I will scream if you ask if I'm off combat mode or have more than half my HP and stamina when I try.

No changes have been made to Healing skill success calculations.

[Sabu]

Originally posted by Final Destiny
After the nerf swords hit for 30 - 80 and streeaks hit for 40 - 90.. ahy the complain?... what do u want more? I play a mage i keep on combination of streaking and bolting.. even maxed melees won't kill me.. cause they just suck in damage they can't over power my heals.. i can even do stamina to mana then heal then war.. WHAT DO YOU WANT MORE?????.. I GOT BORED PLAYING MAGES..........

Infact I thought about quiting when they removed the lure patch.... and allready quit after this patch.... lol..

have fun critting for 320s, and complaining about 100s crits

Try pking... IT HELPS!:D